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Paula Lydon
07-06-2002, 10:04 AM
I was checking in recently on a Daito-ryu site and read a brief about osae waza (control techniques). The sensei was describing them as 'a branch bent in the wind'. Right then, I got this internal impression of that aliveness, that tension, that at any moment or slip the branch would snap back into my face. This made me realized how often as nage I assumed I had something I might not have out of the dojo, and as uke how often we just give up and allow the pin without continued intent. It changed my intentional mind, about all of my movement and interaction. What are your expierences, my friends? :ai: :ki: :cool:

mike lee
07-06-2002, 10:15 AM
Kill or be killed. Survival of the fittest. Only the strong survive. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

George S. Ledyard
07-06-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by mike lee
Kill or be killed. Survival of the fittest. Only the strong survive. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. That was a very insightful and productive post Mike! Thank you for sharing that with us.

Don_Modesto
07-06-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Paula Lydon
...how often as nage I assumed I had something I might not have out of the dojo, and as uke how often we just give up and allow the pin without continued intent. What are your expierences, my friends? :ai: :ki: :cool:

Resisting pins is so dangerous that I only do so with people I trust well. When I do resist, I do it slowly and evenly, not to escape, but to show NAGE the slack and give her a chance to correct it. I appreciate it when my UKE do the same.

In resisting and being resisted, I've been amazed at just how far those fingers, arms and shoulders have to be stretched in order to pin UKE (and how blasted flexible people are!)

Chocolateuke
07-06-2002, 05:43 PM
Most of the time I am pinned to the point i cant resist.. so he no words here!

paw
07-06-2002, 08:54 PM
Don,

Resisting pins is so dangerous that I only do so with people I trust well. When I do resist, I do it slowly and evenly, not to escape, but to show NAGE the slack and give her a chance to correct it. I appreciate it when my UKE do the same.

In resisting and being resisted, I've been amazed at just how far those fingers, arms and shoulders have to be stretched in order to pin UKE (and how blasted flexible people are!)

Could you be more specific? Are you speaking of resisting a "pin" or resisting a "submission"?

Regards,

Paul

George S. Ledyard
07-06-2002, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by paw
Don,



Could you be more specific? Are you speaking of resisting a "pin" or resisting a "submission"?

Regards,

Paul

I am not clear what the distinction is that you are making here. The terms "pin" or "submission hold" are used interchangeably in the training I have done and are both covered by the tyerm osae waza.

paw
07-07-2002, 06:43 AM
George,

Pin - a technique which secures or immobilizes an opponent

Submission/concession - a technique which threatens the health and well being of an opponent, generally a joint lock or choke.

I can pin an opponent without any threat to them. (ie, my opponent lays flat on their back, and I sit on their chest as though sitting in seiza --- the "school yard" pin) Wrestlers, judo players, sambists, et al train to pin and resist pins without any great threat to injury, do they not?

I can also pin my opponent and add a submission hold. In this case, if my opponent resists, I have the option of injuring my opponent. Again, many arts teach counters and escapes to submission holds, but do so with care as the danger to injury is much higher. (Tapping the mat is so much safer)

Do you see a difference in these things or do you feel I've described the same thing twice?

Regards,

Paul

Peter Goldsbury
07-07-2002, 08:30 AM
Here are a few more distinctions, based on my own training, which may or may not be useful for the discussion. All are contained in Kisshomaru Ueshiba's book "Aikido", published in 1957 in Japanese.

Japanese terms tend to be descriptive and are not intended as terms which embody the full meaning of the techniques in question. The distinction between pins and submissions is not reflected in Japanese terms, so far as I can see.

'Osae' (controlling by pushing) is one type of 'katame waza' ('katameru' is the verb from 'katai' and probably means in this case 'make secure', in the sense of being able to cause uke to submit), the others being 'hineri' (twisting) and 'mawashi' (rotating the joint). This is clear from Kisshomaru Ueshiba's account of 1-kyo & 4-kyo (ude-osae; tekubi-osae), 3-kyo (kote-hineri), and 2-kyo (kote-mawashi), respectively.

Then there are the 'nage waza' (throwing techiques), which include shiho-nage, irimi-age and kote-gaeshi. This last is called by Kisshomaru Ueshiba a 'kansetsu-nage' (joint throw). These techniques are presented by Kisshomaru Ueshiba as throws, but I am sure you know very well that all three techniques can end up as submission techniques. There are some pretty nasty things you can do with uke's arm in shiho-nage and this is even before the throw, while a certain Hombu shihan likes to finish irimi-nage as a choke hold on the neck, well before uke hits the mat. For me, both of these variations would be submissions.

Thus, for me, 'pin' has a narrower connotation than 'kansetsu waza' (joint techniques), whereas 'submission' seems to me to encompass both 'katame-waza' and variations of 'nage waza'.

But, as Romeo might say (or is it Juliet?), "What's in a name? A shiho-nage by any other name would feel just as painful", especially if it broke the elbow.

Having sent the post, I should add that for Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the terms mentioned above describe what happens before uke is on the ground. I think that the Japanese terms do not indicate whether the final moves of 1-kyo to 4-kyo are pins or submissions. As 'katame waza' they are probably both.

Best regards,

David H
07-07-2002, 11:15 AM
Actually Paula, I think you've touched on something far deeper than it seems at first sight.
With respect to all who want to clarify pin / submission or such I think this is not the point and I believe your (Paula's) words highlight what is a core of Aiki.
Lately my training has taken a new turn. As uke or tori (nage) I am searching for the relationship in any technique. I believe both parties should be searching for that link, the tying together, between each other.
For tori, if they are not in harmony with uke they can lose the control that is required for effective technique.
For uke, without being 'at one' when taking ukemi (receiving technique) they lose any chance of survival that a real situation would demand.
'Branch bent in the wind' is an interesting way of describing what I call harmony. But I can see the idea (I hope).
I see it as a description of how nothing should be considered complete, or definite, until it actually is. The branch bends but does not break and will snap back at the first opportunity. Uke should be like this and tori should expect this.
The need to keep this in mind is now what I am working on. I think it is helping my overall understanding.
Don't know how the rest of you feel ?
David

George S. Ledyard
07-07-2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by paw
George,

Pin - a technique which secures or immobilizes an opponent

Submission/concession - a technique which threatens the health and well being of an opponent, generally a joint lock or choke.

I can pin an opponent without any threat to them. (ie, my opponent lays flat on their back, and I sit on their chest as though sitting in seiza --- the "school yard" pin) Wrestlers, judo players, sambists, et al train to pin and resist pins without any great threat to injury, do they not?

I can also pin my opponent and add a submission hold. In this case, if my opponent resists, I have the option of injuring my opponent. Again, many arts teach counters and escapes to submission holds, but do so with care as the danger to injury is much higher. (Tapping the mat is so much safer)

Do you see a difference in these things or do you feel I've described the same thing twice?

Regards,

Paul
Thanks! I thought that was probably what you meant but I wasn't sure. I am glad to have folks like Goldsbury Sensei around to provide clarification on the Japanese terms. Saotome Sensei didn't call these things anything, he just did them. I am quite deficient on the actual Japanese terms.

As for Paula's Original Question:
I love that description. It connotes just the right level of "aliveness" that goes into taking the ukemi during a pin. So often people go rather passive once the pinning stage is happening. The really good uke is constantly flowing energy up into the nage, feeling for the least opening. This is done, not as a resistant energy as that would give away their intention but more as an unobtrusive "touch" to the nage's center. That's the willow analogy I think. Although I would say that your description as a feeling that it would "snap" back into place is just a bit too strong from a martial standpoint as it creates a feeling on the part of nage of an impending counter. Like most kaeshiwaza counters to the pinning techniques need to happen in the instant that the opening occurs. Nage should go from feeling "in control" to reversed in one instant. Don's decription of "resisting" the pin is a form of educational feedback to the nage (and uke) for the purpose of training but isn't applicable in the martial context.

Don_Modesto
07-07-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by George S. Ledyard

Thanks! I thought that was probably what you meant but I wasn't sure....Like most kaeshiwaza counters to the pinning techniques need to happen in the instant that the opening occurs. Nage should go from feeling "in control" to reversed in one instant. Don's decription of "resisting" the pin is a form of educational feedback to the nage (and uke) for the purpose of training but isn't applicable in the martial context.

To paw: What George said.

paw
07-07-2002, 07:44 PM
Don,

So then you were orignally speaking of pins, correct?

Additionally, I understand (George, correct me if I am wrong) that when you say "resist" you are referring to a "force on force" resistance that you wouldn't believe to be martially effective. Is that correct?

Just want to double check,

Paul

George S. Ledyard
07-07-2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by paw
Don,

So then you were orignally speaking of pins, correct?

Additionally, I understand (George, correct me if I am wrong) that when you say "resist" you are referring to a "force on force" resistance that you wouldn't believe to be martially effective. Is that correct?

Just want to double check,

Paul

Like any resistance in Aikido, merely stopping a technique leaves on open for atemi. People try to slip all sorts of pins in my Defensive Tactics work. Unless they can unbalance me and achieve a position of advantage they are open to some sort of strike whether that is a low level strike or a destructive atemi depends on the circumstance. So getting some guys who won't atp out because he is so strong is ridiculous.

Don_Modesto
07-08-2002, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by paw
Don,
So then you were orignally speaking of pins, correct?

Not KAISHI WAZA; as George said, I'm givin my NAGE feedback as to the openings in his technique. With IKKYO performed in a slack manner, I merely stand; with a slack pin, I slide out. This gives NAGE the sensation of loosing it and the opportunity to regain it learning as he does what's weak and what's effective.