The imaginary stick vs. the imaginary carrot. (Even)in the imaginary realm,sticks win

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[Anthony Loeppert]

http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120619/10362/religion-hell-belief-society-crime.htm

I wonder if this is old news... as in.... very old news...

The opiate for the masses?

[Chris Parkerson]

Sounds pretty accurate to me. I can't help but intuit that 30 years from now, the statistics will be different. If my inner oracle is accurate, we are revving up for a major shift in consciousness.

Waging peace,

Chris

[Kevin Leavitt]

Okay, but what about addressing people that accept responsibility and accountability for self? That is all the people out there that do not believe in an interfering, separate, conscious god. They either do good or bad based on what?

I would suspect that many do good and don't cheat where it matters cause they understand that they are hurting themselves or understand that harm ultimately will come back on them. I think that detachment and place responsibility on another being for your actions is really at the core of the psychology and this study does not address this.

[Chris Parkerson]

Okay, but what about addressing people that accept responsibility and accountability for self? That is all the people out there that do not believe in an interfering, separate, conscious god. They either do good or bad based on what?

I would suspect that many do good and don't cheat where it matters cause they understand that they are hurting themselves or understand that harm ultimately will come back on them. I think that detachment and place responsibility on another being for your actions is really at the core of the psychology and this study does not address this.

Agreed. And Another segment to be studied:
The many Asian communities whose belief includes honoring ancestors by one's present actions.

Gassho

Chris

[Anthony Loeppert]

Okay, but what about addressing people that accept responsibility and accountability for self? That is all the people out there that do not believe in an interfering, separate, conscious god. They either do good or bad based on what?

I would suspect that many do good and don't cheat where it matters cause they understand that they are hurting themselves or understand that harm ultimately will come back on them. I think that detachment and place responsibility on another being for your actions is really at the core of the psychology and this study does not address this.

I don't take the study too seriously. I thought it was an interesting idea: fear being a more potent motivator than reward. My flip comment about the findings being old was just to say I'd venture a guess that inventors of religions were already kicking around the idea.

Personally, as a father, I've given thought to how to instill values. I don't see much use in a strategy that hinges on them worrying about an all knowing sky spook tallying everything up anymore than a strategy of whipping children into submission. There is enough tangible & legitimate causes for fear in the world, why add more? And of course, they are not poisoned to the idea - I simply don't expose them. But just like cigarettes, if one starts young, usually they are customer for life. They try later - not so much.

I grew up going to church and bought into the concept of heaven / hell into my twenties. I still consider one of the best decisions in my life to set all that baggage down, not that it was terribly easy or quick process. Luckily I never took up smoking like so many of my church friends from high school.

Regards,
Anthony

[David Orange]

I don't take the study too seriously. I thought it was an interesting idea: fear being a more potent motivator than reward. Personally, as a father, I've given thought to how to instill values. I don't see much use in a strategy that hinges on them worrying about an all knowing sky spook tallying everything up anymore than a strategy of whipping children into submission.

I teach my seven year old son that God is our help, who is always there with us, guiding and protecting us. I've never taught him that God is something that criticizes him or racks up any scores against him. I teach him that, through trust in Christ, he can approach God as his loving father, in complete trust and assurance. I have also begun teaching him zazen and I Ching. I teach him that the return of your own actions is simply a natural law. It's not God getting you. It's you getting yourself.

I got my understanding of God at about age five, when my mother was near death and my father, a deputy sheriff, was faced with the loss of his wife and the burden of four young children, in addition to his dangerous job and the many challenges that entailed. In those days, my father started a nightly family Bible reading and we all gathered around my mother's hospital bed to hear him pray and read the Psalms of David, which gave him great comfort in his struggles. From those times, and the prayers of David, I came to understand God as my friend and the source of all strength and hope. And that's the God my son is coming to know.

He hears about hell somewhere. He went to a Greek Orthodox day care for a couple of years and learned The Lord's Prayer. Now he's at a regular day care when not in school and sometimes he asks me about hell. I present it as rather like Karma. The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, I tell him. If you do bad, you can choose the Kingdom of Hell, instead. You don't have to wait until after death to know either one. You choose which one you want and start living in it right here and now.

Remember that Buddhists believe in Hell, where demons tear sufferers to pieces and eat them alive. I've visited ancient temples with huge, detailed paintings of these scenes. It's not just a Christian concept. And there's the story of the Zen monk who is approached by a samurai who asks, "Monk, is there such a thing as heaven and hell?"

The monk says, "Who is asking?"

The samurai says, "It is I, a samurai and accomplished warrior."

The monk says something like, "You look too pathetic to be a samurai. I doubt you can even lift that sword."

The samurai instantly flashes into anger and reaches to draw his sword. The monk never moves but says, "Here open the gates of hell."

The samurai instantly understands. Deflated, he pushes his sword back into the sheath.

The monk says, "Here open the gates of heaven."

So there are many ways to look at it. I teach my son to believe in and call on and trust in God because God is the source of all our strength, hope and wisdom. I teach him not to do bad things simply because they are bad. And I see people every day who are living in the depths of hell, cheating people, stealing, lying, killing, taking others' wives or husbands, envying, coveting and so on. They may have "nice" houses and cars and lots of money, but their actions are so despicable you can see that they are eaten alive by their own evil.

I think, in fact, that the refusal to forgive may be the key to the kingdom of hell.

I recently had someone tell me, "You're Christian. You forgive. I'm not Christian. I don't forgive."

Everyone thinks this person is nice, responsible, kind and considerate, but occasionally they encounter the real person and get a big shock. This is someone who not only does not forgive, but plots and carries out revenge for perceived insults. I have that tendency, myself. I think all people do, but I know that forgiving others is the key to my own forgiveness. I can't imagine going through life without knowing that and using it as a standard for living. I often fail, and I call on God to help me overcome my own worst qualities.

I'd like to see a similar study addressing crime rates in countries where forgiveness is highly valued over those where envy and vengeance are the norm.

Best to you.

David

[Benjamin Green]

Punitive systems of justice produce dramatically worse re-offence rates than rehabilitative ones, and studies of corporal-punishment in children show that - even in the best conditions, where punishment is paired with explanation - it doesn't really outperform just the explanation and some form of soft non-corporal punishment. Sticks in the more common contexts don't seem to produce lasting changes in behaviour.

Maybe it's different with hell, but such a position isn't really supportable on the basis of current evidence. People who don't believe in morality are unlikely to believe that punishment is writ deep into the structure of the world. And it's not like you can just convince them to believe in hell to see whether it makes any change. Religions have been trying to figure out how to do that for thousands of years with little real success.

[genin]

Sometimes I have incredibly pleasing dreams. Then I wake up only to realize it never happened. For a few moment it feels like winning the lotto then being told it was a hoax. If the dream involved women, I'd even feel heartbroken after. It seems that real, and subsequently, that disappointing.

Then there is the dreams where I've murdered, gone to prison, or even been killed. I wake up gasping, thankful beyond all get out that I'm in my bed and not a jail cell or grave.

But given these two opposing scenarios, without a question I'd choose NOT having the bad thing happen, rather than wishing for the good thing to happen. As it relates here, I think that most people would prefer to avoid hell rather than assuring their way into heaven.

[Anthony Loeppert]

I teach my seven year old son that God is our help, who is always there with us, guiding and protecting us. I've never taught him that God is something that criticizes him or racks up any scores against him.


I think I hear what you are saying but I don't know how to square that with Judgment Day. How will a proper judgment be rendered without proper documentation?


I got my understanding of God at about age five, when my mother was near death and my father, a deputy sheriff, was faced with the loss of his wife and the burden of four young children, in addition to his dangerous job and the many challenges that entailed. In those days, my father started a nightly family Bible reading and we all gathered around my mother's hospital bed to hear him pray and read the Psalms of David, which gave him great comfort in his struggles. From those times, and the prayers of David, I came to understand God as my friend and the source of all strength and hope. And that's the God my son is coming to know.


I think that is great and have no problem of people using imagination to aide their development. It might be our imagination that separates us from the apes and monkeys. I see "ki" as an imaginary construct as well - perhaps heretical to Ai'ki'do study but non-the-less how I feel. I try to not let my non-belief in a substance as "ki" keep me from achieving what true believers do.


The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, I tell him. If you do bad, you can choose the Kingdom of Hell, instead. You don't have to wait until after death to know either one. You choose which one you want and start living in it right here and now.

Amen :)


Remember that Buddhists believe in Hell, where demons tear sufferers to pieces and eat them alive.


Actually, I did not know that.


So there are many ways to look at it.


Which is precisely why I dismiss 'it'.


God is the source of all our strength, hope and wisdom.


Perhaps, but even so, does the source require affirmation? Meaning, can you draw on such a strength without recognition of the source and without gratitude. Then sign me up.

Regards,
Anthony

[Anthony Loeppert]

But given these two opposing scenarios, without a question I'd choose NOT having the bad thing happen, rather than wishing for the good thing to happen. As it relates here, I think that most people would prefer to avoid hell rather than assuring their way into heaven.

I agree with you, in the sense that, if there is an afterlife and the choice is afterlife damnation or afterlife death, I'd take the death over damnation. Assuming there is a "GOD", I think he/she/it would be a prick to banish a soul to everlasting damnation and torment rather then simply blinking a soul out of existence.

I don't need a god of that sort, whether they exist or not.

[hughrbeyer]

Most of the questions about death vs. damnation have been endlessly chewed over in Christian theology, if you care for that kind of thing. My favorite is an old Christmas carol that describes three gaunt and tattered riders crossing a barren plain to the Heavenly City. They are the last three souls to respond to the Call after all the rest have returned home, and their names are Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and Judas Iscariot.

But it's not my view that God is there to protect us. God is there to be with us in the time of trial, not to make it go away. This is what the book of Job is all about. Bad things happen--the rain falls on the just and the unjust--but when we're going through the bad times, we're not alone. That's my understanding.

As for judgement--I remember a monologue describing a near-death experience called "When I died, it was beautiful." Judgement in that account came not from an external source but simply by a review of the narrator's life--and judgement came from his own understanding of what he'd done well and badly.

[genin]

Still not sure how love and forgivness fit into the notion of eternal damnation. I always assumed that Jesus would forgive my sins, no matter how abhorrent. Because Hell and the devil were reserved for the likes of people like Hitler, Stalin, and Daniel Tosh--people who clearly deserve infinitely long punishments.

I think God and his baby boy Jesus would be willing to forgive my pre-marital fornicating, and the snickers bar I stole in third grade. .

[TokyoZeplin]

To the original study / question:

Quite interesting really, because most studies show that harsher punishment for crimes, have a very low effect on the actual crime rate. So one would assume that most people commit crimes whether the punishment is harsh or not, it doesn't factor in. Though one might suggest that, if the punishment is extreme enough, it will have an effect; for instance, death sentence for jay walking would certainly cut that down, and obviously "burning forever in hell" (why do so many people still believe that? It doesn't actually say that in any of the religious texts) is quite a severe punishment.


Okay, but what about addressing people that accept responsibility and accountability for self? That is all the people out there that do not believe in an interfering, separate, conscious god. They either do good or bad based on what?

I would suspect that many do good and don't cheat where it matters cause they understand that they are hurting themselves or understand that harm ultimately will come back on them. I think that detachment and place responsibility on another being for your actions is really at the core of the psychology and this study does not address this.

Studies have already been done, my good friend! Granted, more detailed studies as to WHY they do as they do are a bit more difficult (obviously, with no common parameter (not believing some is not something to have in common), there is a bunch of info on such things.
The general concensus is, that less religious people, are "better" (dangerous word) people (statistically): lower crime rates, more giving, higher educations, more support for equality, and so forth. A quicky article can be found here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

[David Orange]

I think I hear what you are saying but I don't know how to square that with Judgment Day. How will a proper judgment be rendered without proper documentation?

The simplest answer to that, in Christianity, is that the documentation is on the cross. Whatever judgment would have come to my son was already paid--as it was for all who chose Christ.

does the source require affirmation? Meaning, can you draw on such a strength without recognition of the source and without gratitude. Then sign me up.

If the mob boss buys you a drink, you're going to owe him.

Likewise, if the philanthropist builds you a building, you're going to have to put his name on it.

So...I think it's like IS/IP in that regard. You might accidentally hit it from time to time, but to be consistently on, you have to know what you did, see it as meaningful, then do it consistently and intentionally. Look at the story of David and Goliath. Usually, that's watered down to be a story about the small overcoming the mighty. But a reading of the actual story shows that the main theme is the power of God. And David was the single one among all the armies of his people, including his brothers and King Saul, who stood only on that power alone. And he told Goliath "45 David said to the Philistine, “You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. 46 This day the Lord will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. 47 All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”"

So there was no power in David but his belief in and love for his God. And he did what he did so that the whole world would know of his God. The "power" was not even a subject. His only concern was that his God should be known.

So I think the affirmation is key.

Best to you.

David

[David Orange]

Most of the questions about death vs. damnation have been endlessly chewed over in Christian theology, if you care for that kind of thing. My favorite is an old Christmas carol that describes three gaunt and tattered riders crossing a barren plain to the Heavenly City. They are the last three souls to respond to the Call after all the rest have returned home, and their names are Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and Judas Iscariot.

But it's not my view that God is there to protect us. God is there to be with us in the time of trial, not to make it go away. This is what the book of Job is all about. Bad things happen--the rain falls on the just and the unjust--but when we're going through the bad times, we're not alone. That's my understanding.

As for judgement--I remember a monologue describing a near-death experience called "When I died, it was beautiful." Judgement in that account came not from an external source but simply by a review of the narrator's life--and judgement came from his own understanding of what he'd done well and badly.

Very well put.

David

[Benjamin Green]

I think I hear what you are saying but I don't know how to square that with Judgment Day. How will a proper judgment be rendered without proper documentation?

Maybe the documentation's written on your heart, so to speak; the sort of person you become. There are a fair number of different ways of believing this sort of stuff.

[Anthony Loeppert]

Maybe the documentation's written on your heart

Maybe so.