PDA

View Full Version : My Spiritual Aikido.


Pages : [1] 2

Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


graham christian
06-11-2012, 08:03 PM
This is a brief description of the spiritual side of Aikido according to yours truly. Different to how you have been taught maybe, nonetheless, my view and my way.

I'll give a few facets, principles and thus a look into my world.

Love. Ah, budo is love. Love is firstly to do with space, yours and the others spiritual space. We all have spiritual space. To translate ie physically and geometrically you would start by recognizing and feeling your own spherical space around you. The whole concept of Japanese bowing rather than shaking hands I put down to this respecting of personal space.

So the operating principles which go with this are 'being with' and 'oneness.' Co-existence.

So we have a loving space, expansive, all embracing, the 'heart' of Aikido. It is hard to believe that space as such can have any effect and yet the more real it gets to you the more effect it has and thus comes about reality of Kokyu.

As the spiritual principle thus is 'be with' then there cannot be any against. Thus I say there is no against in Aikido and thus there cannot be opposition. To be with, share as one space. Thus you enter in order to be with and be one with.

Eventually you are being space, loving space connecting with the others space and 'heart' and it is very non-physical. You are aware of the inflow and outflow, the yin and yang for as space you feel it like breathing. Kokyu.

The next facet I give you is light. The soul as I call it is not related to space although they all work with each other and is Aikido discipline wise related to the center line and the sword. The effect is opening. The correct spiritual feeling you put through the sword or focus with from center line is eventually light. Thus we get light and the warmth of love of Kokyu is heat.

Prior to that I would say the feeling is degrees of calmness, calm focus. It opens as does a sword. It opens space. Thus you can cut through and by doing so you are opening. The sword that cuts through self is opening your heart and soul. This feeling is developed through practice of tegetana and bokken.

Center. From center Ki flows. From center Ki enters. Center is the gateway, the gateless gate between the void and heaven, the spirit of Aikido. Centre is also the place of stillness, an infinite stillness and relates to the energy of life itself, thus Ki. The principle with center is acceptance. With acceptance you can fel, perceive, blend with. With acceptance you can also allow and let go of. Thus from center and stillness can you see the pathways of Ki and love and light and understand the motions. Whilst center line connects heaven and earth, center is the gateway to all, the center of the cross. Whilst center is non- resistive acceptance center line is neutral.

Koshi. Some may call this the lower dantien or various things. Spiritually koshi is the void, emptyness, the 'u' of kotodama. It is what brings about weight underside in Ki Aikido. It is the nothing from which comes everything. It is the connection with mother nature and all forms physical and life forms. It is what you become aware of and feel when you truly let go. Whereas kokyu is space then koshi is infinite capacity thus can receive anything. The ground force or gravity effect is thus all to do with Koshi. Thus from Koshi you can give and receive. You can receive into nothing and you can give nothing. You can find this nothing is not 'nothing at all.'

Now each of the above could be considered different forms of power for they are all effective. Koshi has the added thing of finality, completion, and thus feels much more powerful, or can do, especially to the receiver. For instance a nikkyo done with Koshi is the nikkyo the other goes down with complete certainty and feels like a ton weight did the nikkyo. A nikkyo done with kokyu the person goes down with complete certainty yet wonders why for they feel good.

Yet all in all there is another spiritual principle which comes from Koshi and that is non-disturbance. It like using power to non-disturb and yet move the mountain. Another strange feeling at both ends for the doer and the one being moved.

Hara. Together these form Hara and bring about humility and compassion and non-resistance. They bring about in life and Aikido the spirit of joy from hara. The way of peace.

These are some of the spiritual facets and principles which of themselves when adhered to through discipline bring harmony to the mind which in turn brings harmony to the body. Spirit, mind , body.

A brief outline for your indulgence.

Peace.G.

SteveTrinkle
06-12-2012, 11:23 AM
a lifefe is either all spiritual or not spiritual at all. No man can serve two masters. Your life is shaped by the end you live for. You are made in the image of what you desire.
Thomas Merton
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_merton.html#TcUvWQyuHgHgip1L.99

graham christian
06-12-2012, 01:38 PM
Happiness is not a matter of intensity but of balance, order, rhythm and harmony. -- Thomas Merton

I prefer this one.

Peace.G.

Rob Watson
06-12-2012, 01:44 PM
The depth of ones spirituality is directly proportional to their closeness to the experience of death. You want real deep spirituality? Hug death.

graham christian
06-12-2012, 02:00 PM
The depth of ones spirituality is directly proportional to their closeness to the experience of death. You want real deep spirituality? Hug death.

A bit dark. Hug life, it's much more spiritual.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-12-2012, 02:04 PM
The depth of ones spirituality is directly proportional to their closeness to the experience of death. You want real deep spirituality? Hug death.

And, in the process, divest of wealth, power and fame. We all do anyway, soon before we die.

Merton was pretty good at that. So was Bede Griffiths. And boy did they get opened up in the process.

namaste,

Chris

mathewjgano
06-12-2012, 04:39 PM
The depth of ones spirituality is directly proportional to their closeness to the experience of death. You want real deep spirituality? Hug death.

Perhaps this is the ura to the same thing I would articulate more or less as "hug life."
A bit dark. Hug life, it's much more spiritual.

Peace.G.
Just saw this. Not sure if it's "more" or not though.

graham christian
06-12-2012, 05:53 PM
Perhaps this is the ura to the same thing I would articulate more or less as "hug life."

Just saw this. Not sure if it's "more" or not though.

I see it this way. Spiritual form love to light to spirit et.al all work together in the true nature of things thus they all welcome, support, invite , 'hug' each other.

The mind however produces many fears and negatives Including the concept of death. Being attatched to such ways of thinking we may feel it's good to hug death but to me that's mental not spiritual.

An interesting thought I offer you:

I said earlier that in the way I do Aikido it goes spirit-mind-body. In that order and indeed I would say that order of importance and that order of magnitude.

Now for those who believe in a different order then this is what generally happens. They have the mind leading the spirit. Thus they have the spirit doing negatively according to the minds instructions and thus against it's true nature. Thus ego rules.

Peace.G.

SteveTrinkle
06-12-2012, 06:07 PM
Perhaps this is the ura to the same thing I would articulate more or less as "hug life."

Just saw this. Not sure if it's "DON'T SEE THIS AS"DARK"ACTUALLYI THINK IT'S PRACTICALAND REALISTICI RECENTLYI HAD A STROKEMY OWN EXPERIENCE OF "HUGGINGDEATH"CAN'T SAY THISMADE ME SUDDENLY SOME KIND OF ENLIGHTENED BEING OR FILLED ME WITH SPECIAL WISDOM, BUTIDO HAVE A DRAMATICALLY CHANGED PERSPECTIVEANDMY AIKIDO PLAYS AMAJOR YOLE IN MY EFFORTS TOWARD RECOVERY

graham christian
06-12-2012, 06:42 PM
Just saw this. Not sure if it's "DON'T SEE THIS AS"DARK"ACTUALLYI THINK IT'S PRACTICALAND REALISTICI RECENTLYI HAD A STROKEMY OWN EXPERIENCE OF "HUGGINGDEATH"CAN'T SAY THISMADE ME SUDDENLY SOME KIND OF ENLIGHTENED BEING OR FILLED ME WITH SPECIAL WISDOM, BUTIDO HAVE A DRAMATICALLY CHANGED PERSPECTIVEANDMY AIKIDO PLAYS AMAJOR YOLE IN MY EFFORTS TOWARD RECOVERY

I commend you and wish you well and am sure Aikido will help as you say.

Facing a near death experience is indeed a very spiritual experience and not 'dark' at all. Those who have had such were also hugging life wouldn't you say?

Hugging death thus may be wise when it is necessary but meanwhile hugging life is the or should be the daily course.

Peace. G.

Rob Watson
06-12-2012, 08:30 PM
Those unable to lovingly embrace death have no aptitutde to truly love.

Chris Parkerson
06-12-2012, 08:51 PM
Just saw this. Not sure if it's "DON'T SEE THIS AS"DARK"ACTUALLYI THINK IT'S PRACTICALAND REALISTICI RECENTLYI HAD A STROKEMY OWN EXPERIENCE OF "HUGGINGDEATH"CAN'T SAY THISMADE ME SUDDENLY SOME KIND OF ENLIGHTENED BEING OR FILLED ME WITH SPECIAL WISDOM, BUTIDO HAVE A DRAMATICALLY CHANGED PERSPECTIVEANDMY AIKIDO PLAYS AMAJOR YOLE IN MY EFFORTS TOWARD RECOVERY

Greetings and gratitude for your story.
If I may ask, was it a left brain stroke or a right brain stroke?

Have you read, Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor's book "Stroke of Insight"?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0670020745

Or seen her talk on TED?
http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

Could you relate to the spiritual opening? Bede Griffiths' mystical consciousness skyrocketed after his stroke. Many of the Christian mystics had suffered strokes as well.

Gratitude,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-12-2012, 11:10 PM
By the way, Tuturuhan Joe Ariola, A student of Princess Josephina's soft style of Eskrima, Chinese arts, and a contrinutor to this site several years ago, suffered a stroke. I recently visited him (April) at his home. Here he is jousting staff against Tai Chi sword. Joes' world has flourished immensley since his stroke about two years ago.

One mark of a Shaman is that most have had near death experiences. He is now moving freely between both the linear and timeless fields. His mystical downloads are spot on. Truly an amazing man.

Puha

Chris

1022

mathewjgano
06-13-2012, 12:21 AM
Just saw this. Not sure if it's "DON'T SEE THIS AS"DARK"ACTUALLYI THINK IT'S PRACTICALAND REALISTICI RECENTLYI HAD A STROKEMY OWN EXPERIENCE OF "HUGGINGDEATH"CAN'T SAY THISMADE ME SUDDENLY SOME KIND OF ENLIGHTENED BEING OR FILLED ME WITH SPECIAL WISDOM, BUTIDO HAVE A DRAMATICALLY CHANGED PERSPECTIVEANDMY AIKIDO PLAYS AMAJOR YOLE IN MY EFFORTS TOWARD RECOVERY

Nicely put! I agree it's not dark...unless by "dark" we mean it's hard to look into. I think it might have been another way of saying "hug life," since both life and death seem inseperable. I study Jinja Shinto a little and have heard it described that Shinto isn't so concerned with death...which I took to be a way of saying, "we'll cross that bridge when we get there; embrace life now because that's where we're at."
I wish you a speedy recovery! I've got family who had a stroke and while I know it can be difficult, what I've come away with is how amazing the brain is at adaptation; learning new ways of doing things; growing.
Take care!
Matt

mathewjgano
06-13-2012, 12:31 AM
Those unable to lovingly embrace death have no aptitutde to truly love.

I'm not sure I agree...but I'm not sure I understand, either. I accept death as apparently inevitable. When I stop worrying about things like it (i.e. embrace the fact of its apparent inevitability), I feel more free to embrace the moment, to be in the middle of now. I think if I had no experience/awareness with/of death I could still truly love though...and that is why I am inclined to think I might disagree.
Who knows? Surely not me...and if I do, I'm not aware of it. :D
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
06-13-2012, 12:53 AM
I see it this way. Spiritual form love to light to spirit et.al all work together in the true nature of things thus they all welcome, support, invite , 'hug' each other.

The mind however produces many fears and negatives Including the concept of death. Being attatched to such ways of thinking we may feel it's good to hug death but to me that's mental not spiritual.

An interesting thought I offer you:

I said earlier that in the way I do Aikido it goes spirit-mind-body. In that order and indeed I would say that order of importance and that order of magnitude.

Now for those who believe in a different order then this is what generally happens. They have the mind leading the spirit. Thus they have the spirit doing negatively according to the minds instructions and thus against it's true nature. Thus ego rules.

Peace.G.

Interesting. I'm not sure I think the concept of death is necessarily fear-based, though I certainly agree it tends to evoke such feelings in people.
Thank you for the food for thought...er...spirit! :D
Take care,
Matt
p.s. sorry for so many posts right after each other.

Janet Rosen
06-13-2012, 01:17 AM
Those unable to lovingly embrace death have no aptitutde to truly love.

Children....I had no concept of death when as a tiny young child loved for the first time, my very first best friend, a friend of the family's German Shepard....

lbb
06-13-2012, 08:07 AM
Coming close to death, your own or another's, is truly a IHTBF thing. My advice is to not think about it, not speculate about it, and above all not reach for it; it will come to you soon enough. And once it does, my advice is to go back to life, don't think about it, don't reach for it, don't hold onto it. It is not your time.

Chris Parkerson
06-13-2012, 08:56 AM
In my own Buddhist practice, I have specifically meditate upon death and impermanence as a priority as a means of fully experiencing my many attitudes that are hidden within me. In fact, I have conducted experiments in lifestyling to support this meditation.

For instance, I took my food budget for 6 months and donated it to a homeless food kitchen. I only ate what they served. For six months I gave away my agency as to when I ate, what I ate and with whom I ate. It was amazing what arose within me; how many feelings I had repressed about disease, the smell of poverty, the psychic pain of hopelessness andy prudish preferences as a organic food snob.

Some of the results of this action is that I chose to live in an inner city community. Our non-profit organization we created helps people in crisis. I now donate nearly 50% of my income annually to the
non profit and, after taxes, live on about 23% of my income. Most of the food I eat comes from the garden. We have 2,000 veggie plants this year. And folks who help in the garden are changing their eating patterns from KFC and McDonalds to fresh home cooking. Their kids are getting their hand in dirt; learning that actions have consequences and care produces immediate results.

This all came out of meditating upon death and impermanence. Now, living simply and simply living.

Namaste,

Chris

Gary David
06-13-2012, 10:36 AM
For instance a nikkyo done with Koshi is the nikkyo the other goes down with complete certainty and feels like a ton weight did the nikkyo. A nikkyo done with kokyu the person goes down with complete certainty yet wonders why for they feel good.

I said earlier that in the way I do Aikido it goes spirit-mind-body. In that order and indeed I would say that order of importance and that order of magnitude.


Graham
Thanks for sharing. The first partial quote from the original entry and the second partial from a later entry seems to me to open space to ask a question about the how of the body. Putting aside the order of things, i.e. Spirit, Mind, Body......how do you work the body to allow it of be an effect part of the whole when doing nikkyo? How do you train (drills, etc.) to have the body work in doing nikkyo using your Koshi approach? Is it different training for the Kokyu approach? For me doing nikkyo is a body closing activity on my part and I am trying to effect the other persons feet. I want them light on their feet . With uke my intent goes through the their elbow, through the lower back and through the leg to the ground, breaking the connection, My hold on the uke's wrist and such is like a hug that can't be broken, their is a weight drop, a weight shift, I keep my center/dantien pressurized and I close...a feeling to my light drawing in rather than expanding.

For all of these elements there are drills, some of them solo drills. A whole bunch of folks provide these kinds of practices to help with the whole. what kinds of practices or drills do you use for your body practice?

Thanks

Gary

mathewjgano
06-13-2012, 10:53 AM
Hi Chris,
That is very humbling! Thank you for sharing that! It's amazing to me how comfortable we get with our own part of the world and how uncomfortable we can get when we experience something distinctly different.
I was lucky enough to take part in a "charity tour" in Cambodia and it was interesting to see how people resonded to the deprivations we were witness to. In particular, I thought it was interesting that some folks were surprised when an overt expression of resentment was displayed (a child drew his finger across his throat at us). One person said, "that was odd." I thought I understood it right away. As nice as it is that we were there to help in some way, the sense of dignity of those we sought to help wasn't much of a consideration. We were outsiders coming in on an air-conditioned bus and snapping pictures of people in their daily lives. Imagine someone coming to your home and looking with pity as they make you the object of their interest. Some folks are naturally going to resent it, whether out of a sense of shame, or pride, or what have you. That such an idea never seemed to occur to some folks initially made me resentful. I by no means grew up in poverty, but I lived closer to it than most Americans do and part of me found it outrageous. After thinking about it I had to admit we're all limited by our experiences, and some of us simply have few points of reference to form much understanding.
So where I've come to with all this is the idea that spirituality is another way of finding universal qualities...or put another way, of connecting to disparate realms of this very vast reality. I tend to think spiritual endeavors have a purpose of finding what connects us all and operating from there to arrive at greater understanding and greater cohesion of interaction. To my mind this is very much in keeping with kaiso's vision for Aikido and why I've been so attracted to it as a medium for fostering spirituality...despite being somewhat uncomfortable with sharing in my spirituality.
I can see a parallel here with Graham's idea of starting from the spiritual and proceeding to the mental and then to the physical.
...For what it's worth.
Take care,
Matt

C. David Henderson
06-13-2012, 10:55 AM
A preference to "hug life" is, from a buddhist perspective, a classic example of dualistic thinking. For those who might be interested:

For Buddhism, the dualism between life and death is only one instance of a more general problem, dualistic thinking. Why is dualistic thinking a problem? We differentiate between good and evil, success and failure, life and death, and so forth because we want to keep the one and reject the other. But we cannot have one without the other because they are interdependent: affirming one half also maintains the other. Living a "pure" life thus requires a preoccupation with impurity, and our hope for success will be proportional to our fear of failure. We discriminate between life and death in order to affirm one and deny the other, and, as we have seen, our tragedy lies in the paradox that these two opposites are so interdependent: there is no life without death and -- what we are more likely to overlook -- there is no death without life. This means our problem is not death but life-and-death.


The Nonduality of Life and Death: A Buddhist View of Repression, page 164, David Loy (2000,University of Hawaii Press) from http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/davloy.htm

From the Gospel of Phillip, something markedly similar:

Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-dualism

Chris Parkerson
06-13-2012, 11:11 AM
David,

You are certainly right about dualism. Nondual mind is a rare thing in this world. For the moment we use words, most of us make differentiations, judgements and thus, become dualistic. In my practice, I have chosen to make friends with our dark side. I embrace both evil and good, clean and dirty, life and death. By not repressing it, they emerge in their raw form. They are me. I am everything. Non-dual manifests, if only for a moment.

Namaste,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-13-2012, 11:20 AM
Matthew,

I think Graham is on to something. This whole struggle between him and the IS/IP folks is likely about something other than his spiritual experience of Aikido. I have used my own Aiki practices as internal yogas of the heart, and by doing so, gave augmented my understanding of compassion and non-judgment.

Chris

Gary David
06-13-2012, 11:44 AM
Matthew,

I think Graham is on to something. This whole struggle between him and the IS/IP folks is likely about something other than his spiritual experience of Aikido. I have used my own Aiki practices as internal yogas of the heart, and by doing so, gave augmented my understanding of compassion and non-judgment.

Chris

Chris
If we are to find common ground we need to understand each other starting with what is the easiest to get to....".....how do you train your body to work as part of the whole?.....what kind of practices do you do to effect the body's functioning to do these things? How do you condition your body? Spirit and mind can be strong...weak body means nothing good happens. And you know that John has drills to help with this, that is what Dan is talking about at this stage is the body work, and that others are out there offering their approaches.

Graham likely has drills, solo training and partner training....other than just waza... to effect the conditioning... that is what I am asking.

Gary

Chris Parkerson
06-13-2012, 12:51 PM
Chris
If we are to find common ground we need to understand each other starting with what is the easiest to get to....".....how do you train your body to work as part of the whole?.....what kind of practices do you do to effect the body's functioning to do these things? How do you condition your body? Spirit and mind can be strong...weak body means nothing good happens. And you know that John has drills to help with this, that is what Dan is talking about at this stage is the body work, and that others are out there offering their approaches.

Graham likely has drills, solo training and partner training....other than just waza... to effect the conditioning... that is what I am asking.

Gary
Gary,
I agree that spiritual consciousness can be obtained through body yogas. Hatha yoga is a prime
example outside of the Aiki world. But as I experienced Bakhti yoga (Love and devotional service)
while living in an ISKON ashram in the late 1960's, i noticed that one can go directly to the
spiritual source - yes, it can often leave the body in an acstatic limbo to be sure. The Bakhti folks
critique the Hatha folks as being too slow in their a process.
I began to live with this idea. My experience of the spiritual are encompassed within three forms
that are bound together. Together, they ensure balance. I must have:

1. Some form of mindful experience. For me it is about clarity, acstatic/mystical seeing, and awareness of heaven and earth.
2. Some form of ethics. For me it is the faith of Jesus (not faith in Jesus) and the 14 precepts of engaged Buddhism
http://viewonbuddhism.org/resources/14_precepts.html
3. Some form of practice. For me, it is sacred activism
http://www.andrewharvey.net/sacred_activism.php ,
my martial and internal gung and meditational training.

I am not convinced that body training will necessarily lead to mindful compassion or ethical living. Mindfulness alone can lead some into a denial of the body and sometimes a complete rejection of the world. Ethics alone can make one self righteous judges over others.

Thus the three provide balance - Heaven and earth meeting within the center (lymbic system) of the body. (There is, however, a fusion of tantien, heart and mind that is very important for manifesting things)

There are many ways to bow and kiss the ground (Rumi). As for me, I follow this 3 fold path. Aikido is a part of that path and helps to inform all three elements.

Namaste,

Chris

Gary David
06-13-2012, 01:07 PM
I am not convinced that body training will necessarily lead to mindful compassion or ethical living. Mindfulness alone can lead some into a denial of the body and sometimes a complete rejection of the world. Ethics alone can make one self righteous judges over others.

Thus the three provide balance - Heaven and earth meeting within the center (lymbic system) of the body. (There is, however, a fusion of tantien, heart and mind that is very important for manifesting things)

There are many ways to bow and kiss the ground (Rumi). As for me, I follow this 3 fold path. Aikido is a part of that path and helps to inform all three elements.

Namaste,

Chris

Chris
I am talking about Aikido and only the body aspect of it.......not talking about kissing the earth or someone's @%&. What is Graham doing to train his body? I understand the connections, in interdependence, the intertwining...I am talking about body work.......

Does John talk anything but body work & mechanics? ...not what else he may hold?

just me

Gary

graham christian
06-13-2012, 02:01 PM
Graham
Thanks for sharing. The first partial quote from the original entry and the second partial from a later entry seems to me to open space to ask a question about the how of the body. Putting aside the order of things, i.e. Spirit, Mind, Body......how do you work the body to allow it of be an effect part of the whole when doing nikkyo? How do you train (drills, etc.) to have the body work in doing nikkyo using your Koshi approach? Is it different training for the Kokyu approach? For me doing nikkyo is a body closing activity on my part and I am trying to effect the other persons feet. I want them light on their feet . With uke my intent goes through the their elbow, through the lower back and through the leg to the ground, breaking the connection, My hold on the uke's wrist and such is like a hug that can't be broken, their is a weight drop, a weight shift, I keep my center/dantien pressurized and I close...a feeling to my light drawing in rather than expanding.

For all of these elements there are drills, some of them solo drills. A whole bunch of folks provide these kinds of practices to help with the whole. what kinds of practices or drills do you use for your body practice?

Thanks

Gary

Good question Gary which I need to clarify first.

As you know my emphasis is spiritual drills. There are also mental drills. There are also physical drills.

On the mental side I usually start off even with beginners asking them questions and getting them looking and seeing there is another way. For example I can grab them, grab their wrist hard, squeeze hard, hold with two hands, all kinds of holds and ask them what they are trying to do as a response and why? Inevitably they say they are trying to escape and the why is varied but basically to escape being trapped. This is considered normal yet in my Aikido is not. The mind says escape, fight, etc. So the first drills are to show not to use that mind and how to use another way which doesn't equal such reaction and leads to new thinking.

Anyway back to body. The first drills are Aiki taiso. Body movement and body movement whilst keeping center and extending Ki. The purpose is to allow the body or cell memories to get used to the body motions involved in Aikido. So from taisabaki, tenkan, ikkyo, funokogiundo, ukemis backwards, forwards, (sidewards) etc etc.

Then geometry of movements in Aikido.

At first the concentration is very much on correct body movement for the beginner but the emphasis given is still more on the spiritual principles and the geometry. In other words why are you doing Ikkyo exercise? What does it do? Where does it come from? What principle should you be using when doing it? So although these are body movements the whys and wherefors have to be adhered to as more important.

Whilst doing these things using Ki and with tests then many body adjustments and awarenesses of happenings in the body are come across. However, the aim is to do eventually based solely on principle application and what feels like nothing happening within the body, as if it is an empty vessel. The only changes are in energy feelings.

I cannot escape mentioning spirit, mind, body in that order here because within my philosophy is firstly as I said before spirit brings harmony to mind and body. So now secondly and importantly I say eventually you have to trust the body as it knows what to do so you don't interfere and try to make it do. Like with a weapon be it a sword or whatever, if you learn the correct principles to adhere to and are thus in tune with then your job becomes letting it do what it 'wants' to do, like it knows what to do.

Therefor by using Ki and space and kokyu etc. spiritually the body gets used to and does what it needs to do. You merely become aware of the subtle changes and thus aware of when you are applying the principle concerned or if you only think you are because the body energy feeling or energy location is out.

That said I will go to the nikkyo question etc. in separate post.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-13-2012, 02:15 PM
Chris
I am talking about Aikido and only the body aspect of it.......not talking about kissing the earth or someone's @%&. What is Graham doing to train his body? I understand the connections, in interdependence, the intertwining...I am talking about body work.......

Does John talk anything but body work & mechanics? ...not what else he may hold?

just me

Gary

Well Gary,

That rather redefines the topic of this thread. The topic was "my spiritual Aikido".
As such, I believe Graham is onto something. He is on his spiritual path. In this context, I am disagreeing that body yogas are the easiest place to start as you suggested. If it was, the experience would be ubiquitous.

I am sorry you misunderstood my context.

Regards,

Chris

graham christian
06-13-2012, 03:29 PM
Graham
Thanks for sharing. The first partial quote from the original entry and the second partial from a later entry seems to me to open space to ask a question about the how of the body. Putting aside the order of things, i.e. Spirit, Mind, Body......how do you work the body to allow it of be an effect part of the whole when doing nikkyo? How do you train (drills, etc.) to have the body work in doing nikkyo using your Koshi approach? Is it different training for the Kokyu approach? For me doing nikkyo is a body closing activity on my part and I am trying to effect the other persons feet. I want them light on their feet . With uke my intent goes through the their elbow, through the lower back and through the leg to the ground, breaking the connection, My hold on the uke's wrist and such is like a hug that can't be broken, their is a weight drop, a weight shift, I keep my center/dantien pressurized and I close...a feeling to my light drawing in rather than expanding.

For all of these elements there are drills, some of them solo drills. A whole bunch of folks provide these kinds of practices to help with the whole. what kinds of practices or drills do you use for your body practice?

Thanks

Gary

Nikkyo: Firstly I show various ways of doing the same Nikkyo. So it's best I separate them.

Nikkyo from center: This nikkyo is done by extending Ki out of the finger (usually index finger for beginners) and around the wrist and back to own center. Principle of circle or even a 'u' shape. The emphasis is reaching out from center, around and back to own center. So it's not so much a body drill except for the how of the technique, the technical corrections of elbows and shoulders and position etc. It's exercising center.

Nikkyo from center line: This is nikkyo with tegatana. Extending through the center line of the other, cutting through their center line, done. It's a sword cut. It involves lifting the sword and cutting the sword. Once again it exercises center and center line. Whatever happens body wise 'internally' is the result of these two things.

Nikkyo form kokyu is done with a flat hand, fingers spread, wrist soft, extended Ki, like a fan. This is a space exercise so you are exercizing your space. Center line and center are there too of course but emphasis space. With each the principles are different.

For instance with the first the principle of invite, with the second the principle of neutral, with the third the principle welcome.

So the body being the effect part of anything is based on all drills where you are to learn to be happy effect. You learn in all drills to receive comfortably. So it's not really a matter of which part of the body it's more a matter of which principle you use which in turn allows the body to receive comfortably.

Center for example accepts and gives and that is for me a basic Aikido meditation and something which should be more and more there all the time like breathing, energy is continuously going in and extending out. Any force given thus goes into center so the body remains energetic and relaxed. Any tension goes into center, etc. Thus energy in the body, especially the lower half is doing what it should naturally. Develop center line and the upper part of the body internally goes into alignment energy wise.

For me Nikkyo wise on the wrist for example I am not interested in the other persons feet or whatever physically. What I would call the standard would be the sword, or tegatana nikkyo. Therefor I am only interested in aligning my center line with theirs, aware of their energy and mind movement showing them the 'blade'. Any thought of moving or energy change I cut through their center line, done. What they do internally, externally, of no importance. I am concentrated and aware only of my center line and center and space, as well as theirs.

The body drills which fit such would actually be those like ikkyo exercise done from those principles. Four direction ikkyo, eight direction ikkyo, Picking up tegatana for nikkyo should feel no different than doing ikkyo in essence.

Koshi I do drills where they must feel the gravity and more importantly an empty space below them, a space that has infinite capacity, can take everything into it. Sometimes as if it's a big bowl below ground that if you connect to takes everything into it. This relates to the base of the lower spine relaxing, opening. So nikkyo done from such I am actually connecting our koshi's.

I do not 'break' connection, I connect. I do not say connect to their center and disrupt it. I say connect to their center and then anything you are truly doing from center will cause motion for you are together. Thus I have drills of connecting with center, connecting your space with their space, connecting your koshi with their koshi, connecting you with them. Prime directive is 'to be with'.

To be with and you can feel they may be doing all kinds of strange things with their minds and energy and internal movements but all subservient to being with and being at one. Then and only then what you do they follow.

The exercises of closing and opening, condensing, expanding I don't do as such for I say both should be happening at the same time, yin and yang. Thus we never 'pull Ki in' or tense 'constrict Ki' We allow. We allow expansion and allow condensing, Ki out or ki flowing from out to in. The principle is that as you flow. extend out then Ki automatically according to the laws of yin and yang flows in. So there is no need to tense or constrict. Allow the principles to do their jobs is the key.

All Aikitaiso and indeed all techniques can be done from center. They can be done from koshi. They can be done from kokyu. Thus the body exercises done from said facets produces different internal effects and different external effects on the other person. So we don't concentrate on the internal body parts or energy paths but rather the principles and the resultant effects internally or externally. So for me it's universal.

Any more thoughts on the matter I shall put into a different post.

Peace.G.

SteveTrinkle
06-13-2012, 05:45 PM
right brain stroke left side of body is f***ed up!

graham christian
06-13-2012, 05:56 PM
Here's an example of principle. As written above center does certain things, it has certain qualities.

The main principle I have said goes with center is acceptance.

This means when accepting you are centered, when not you are not centered, you have 'lost' your center.

Thus you can apply this principle to all things in all walks of life.

When you are accepting you are centered thus when something happens in life that makes you other than accepting, be it angry or whatever, then you are at that point not centered. Thus you can apply Aikido to life.

When you are not accepting then your mind and spirit are not unified and the result of your body is some form of tension and disharmony. When you are accepting then your mind is bright and clear, spirit is joyful and body is relaxed and energetic. Spirit, mind , body unified. Centered.

Peace. G.

SteveTrinkle
06-13-2012, 06:47 PM
perhaps I'm not writing down my thoughts clearly

SteveTrinkle
06-13-2012, 06:51 PM
Here's an example of principle. As written above center does certain things, it has certain qualities.

The main principle I have said goes with center is acceptance.

This means when accepting you are centered, when not you are not centered, you have 'lost' your center.

Thus you can apply this principle to all things in all walks of life.

When you are accepting you are centered thus when something happens in life that makes you other than accepting, be it angry or whatever, then you are at that point not centered. Thus you can apply Aikido to life.

When you are not accepting then your mind and spirit are not unified and the result of your body is some form of tension and disharmony. When you are accepting then your mind is bright and clear, spirit is joyful and body is relaxed and energetic. Spirit, mind , body unified. Centered.

Peace. G.none of the aboves has much to do with my present experience I'm living it nowin the moment

graham christian
06-13-2012, 07:44 PM
none of the aboves has much to do with my present experience I'm living it nowin the moment

Steve. I think it was Chris who asked you about your stroke,not me.

My last post was general, to anyone, not with relation to your previous post.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-13-2012, 07:50 PM
Stephen,

I, for one, would love to hear more about your experience of the stroke, how it has changed you, and what you have discovered. I would be honored to hear these things privately or publically.

Regards,

Chris

graham christian
06-13-2012, 07:56 PM
Chris
If we are to find common ground we need to understand each other starting with what is the easiest to get to....".....how do you train your body to work as part of the whole?.....what kind of practices do you do to effect the body's functioning to do these things? How do you condition your body? Spirit and mind can be strong...weak body means nothing good happens. And you know that John has drills to help with this, that is what Dan is talking about at this stage is the body work, and that others are out there offering their approaches.

Graham likely has drills, solo training and partner training....other than just waza... to effect the conditioning... that is what I am asking.

Gary

Gary, you would have to explain to me what you mean by body conditioning. Health is one form. Fitness is another. Suppleness is another. What conditioning are you referring to?

Peace.G.

PhillyKiAikido
06-13-2012, 09:54 PM
Nicely put. Thanks!

Good question Gary which I need to clarify first.

As you know my emphasis is spiritual drills. There are also mental drills. There are also physical drills.

On the mental side I usually start off even with beginners asking them questions and getting them looking and seeing there is another way. For example I can grab them, grab their wrist hard, squeeze hard, hold with two hands, all kinds of holds and ask them what they are trying to do as a response and why? Inevitably they say they are trying to escape and the why is varied but basically to escape being trapped. This is considered normal yet in my Aikido is not. The mind says escape, fight, etc. So the first drills are to show not to use that mind and how to use another way which doesn't equal such reaction and leads to new thinking.

Anyway back to body. The first drills are Aiki taiso. Body movement and body movement whilst keeping center and extending Ki. The purpose is to allow the body or cell memories to get used to the body motions involved in Aikido. So from taisabaki, tenkan, ikkyo, funokogiundo, ukemis backwards, forwards, (sidewards) etc etc.

Then geometry of movements in Aikido.

At first the concentration is very much on correct body movement for the beginner but the emphasis given is still more on the spiritual principles and the geometry. In other words why are you doing Ikkyo exercise? What does it do? Where does it come from? What principle should you be using when doing it? So although these are body movements the whys and wherefors have to be adhered to as more important.

Whilst doing these things using Ki and with tests then many body adjustments and awarenesses of happenings in the body are come across. However, the aim is to do eventually based solely on principle application and what feels like nothing happening within the body, as if it is an empty vessel. The only changes are in energy feelings.

I cannot escape mentioning spirit, mind, body in that order here because within my philosophy is firstly as I said before spirit brings harmony to mind and body. So now secondly and importantly I say eventually you have to trust the body as it knows what to do so you don't interfere and try to make it do. Like with a weapon be it a sword or whatever, if you learn the correct principles to adhere to and are thus in tune with then your job becomes letting it do what it 'wants' to do, like it knows what to do.

Therefor by using Ki and space and kokyu etc. spiritually the body gets used to and does what it needs to do. You merely become aware of the subtle changes and thus aware of when you are applying the principle concerned or if you only think you are because the body energy feeling or energy location is out.

That said I will go to the nikkyo question etc. in separate post.

Peace.G.

Gary David
06-13-2012, 09:55 PM
Gary, you would have to explain to me what you mean by body conditioning. Health is one form. Fitness is another. Suppleness is another. What conditioning are you referring to?

Peace.G.

Graham
If one was wanting to run a 2:10 marathon...... the body needs to be conditioned to carry the spirit and the mind on the run.....otherwise it won't happen..... To do do any Aikido the body has to be able to carry the spirit and mind.....

Gary

SteveTrinkle
06-14-2012, 07:29 AM
i'd bbe happy to speak privatelywith you call me in the usa215 9 06 9515216 906 95-15

Chris Parkerson
06-14-2012, 07:31 AM
i'd bbe happy to speak privatelywith you call me in the usa215 9 06 9515216 906 95-15

I certainly will

With gratitude

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-14-2012, 01:31 PM
Gary,
I agree that spiritual consciousness can be obtained through body yogas. Hatha yoga is a prime
example outside of the Aiki world. But as I experienced Bakhti yoga (Love and devotional service)
while living in an ISKON ashram in the late 1960's, i noticed that one can go directly to the
spiritual source - yes, it can often leave the body in an acstatic limbo to be sure. The Bakhti folks
critique the Hatha folks as being too slow in their a process.
I began to live with this idea. My experience of the spiritual are encompassed within three forms
that are bound together. Together, they ensure balance. I must have:

1. Some form of mindful experience. For me it is about clarity, acstatic/mystical seeing, and awareness of heaven and earth.
2. Some form of ethics. For me it is the faith of Jesus (not faith in Jesus) and the 14 precepts of engaged Buddhism
http://viewonbuddhism.org/resources/14_precepts.html
3. Some form of practice. For me, it is sacred activism
http://www.andrewharvey.net/sacred_activism.php ,
my martial and internal gung and meditational training.

I am not convinced that body training will necessarily lead to mindful compassion or ethical living. Mindfulness alone can lead some into a denial of the body and sometimes a complete rejection of the world. Ethics alone can make one self righteous judges over others.

Thus the three provide balance - Heaven and earth meeting within the center (lymbic system) of the body. (There is, however, a fusion of tantien, heart and mind that is very important for manifesting things)

There are many ways to bow and kiss the ground (Rumi). As for me, I follow this 3 fold path. Aikido is a part of that path and helps to inform all three elements.

Namaste,

Chris

Chris,
Thank you for this wonderful description of your practice. Bringing all those three together and including the service as practiced in Bhakti yoga would to me be a fine description of Aikido experienced and enjoyed to the fullest.

I wonder how many Aikido dojo still practice service to those who need help or to the community. But that question might be the start of a new thread.

(and I really need to find that book of Rumi! Loved that quote!)

Gassho,

Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-14-2012, 01:53 PM
The Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks.
Search YouTube for Coleman Barks. His channeling of Rumi knocks my socks off. A good friend of mine studied under Coleman in Athens, Ga. Instead of sufi Dirvish twirling, Coleman and Loring would drink and dance to Bluegrass music, Pylon and the B-52's.

As an aside, So many folks don't get it about these deeply spiritual beings. When Jesus, for instance, invited the tax collectors and "sinners" to his house for dinner, (Luke 15:2), that wasn't a formal dinner party. It was a festive party atmosphere where people reclined and drank wine (Luke 7:34; Matthew 11:9).

Smiling Deeply,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-14-2012, 03:08 PM
Tom,
I found the poem that has that quote:

Today, like every other day, we wake up empty
and frightened. Don't open the door to the study
and begin reading. Take down a musical instrument.

Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

Rumi (Translated by Coleman Barks)

graham christian
06-14-2012, 03:39 PM
Graham
If one was wanting to run a 2:10 marathon...... the body needs to be conditioned to carry the spirit and the mind on the run.....otherwise it won't happen..... To do do any Aikido the body has to be able to carry the spirit and mind.....

Gary

I don't agree. The body needs to be conditioned to cope, that's all. It doesn't carry anything unless you have a pack on your back.

In fact it's quite the reverse. You and the mind direct the body. Without you and the mind conditioned you cannot do Aikido.

It's like saying a car improves you. The car does nothing without you driving it. The car is maintained. The rest is nothing to do with the car. Purely down to you knowing how to drive.

Peace.G.

Gary David
06-14-2012, 04:36 PM
I don't agree. The body needs to be conditioned to cope, that's all. It doesn't carry anything unless you have a pack on your back.

In fact it's quite the reverse. You and the mind direct the body. Without you and the mind conditioned you cannot do Aikido.

It's like saying a car improves you. The car does nothing without you driving it. The car is maintained. The rest is nothing to do with the car. Purely down to you knowing how to drive.

Peace.G.

Graham
If the spark plugs are fouled, tires are flat, one or two missing, out of gas, missing the starter motor...or like that....no matter how conditioned the driver is they go no where.....and even a condition mind can carry the car...... just like cars are not maintained so bodies are not. sitting zazen in seiza for twenty years may settle your mind, but mostly it gives us tight a#$ white guys bad knees, it does nothing to help lineup the transmission of whatever you are transmitting out of the body to effect whatever it is you are trying to effect......... All three need complementary work to be efficient. What I have seen most of my life is heavy work on spirit and mind....thinking that practice of waza 3 times a week as a single approach to body work is enough..... maybe with a cooperative approach to practice that is enough, but to be effective past a preliminary level it is not.. ..... find a middle ground here or you lose me completely....

Gary

sakumeikan
06-14-2012, 07:03 PM
The Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks.
Search YouTube for Coleman Barks. His channeling of Rumi knocks my socks off. A good friend of mine studied under Coleman in Athens, Ga. Instead of sufi Dirvish twirling, Coleman and Loring would drink and dance to Bluegrass music, Pylon and the B-52's.

As an aside, So many folks don't get it about these deeply spiritual beings. When Jesus, for instance, invited the tax collectors and "sinners" to his house for dinner, (Luke 15:2), that wasn't a formal dinner party. It was a festive party atmosphere where people reclined and drank wine (Luke 7:34; Matthew 11:9).

Smiling Deeply,

Chris
Chris,
Maybe Jesus had a hidden agenda when he invited the tax collectors for a booze up?Assuming the said inspectors got into the swing of things, being sozzled maybe they then tried a bit of hows your father with the local crumpet.Jesus might well have asked for tax free status for himself and his buddies[Prophet charitable status?]and tax refunds all round for the population.Since the tax inspectors were probably Roman citizens , Jesus had a extra chuckle here.My theory has not been verified by the Church/Vatican but only time will tell.I am researching this in ancient Essene documents/Dead Sea scrolls the unexpurgated version.Cheers Joe.

sakumeikan
06-14-2012, 07:07 PM
I don't agree. The body needs to be conditioned to cope, that's all. It doesn't carry anything unless you have a pack on your back.

In fact it's quite the reverse. You and the mind direct the body. Without you and the mind conditioned you cannot do Aikido.

It's like saying a car improves you. The car does nothing without you driving it. The car is maintained. The rest is nothing to do with the car. Purely down to you knowing how to drive.

Peace.G.

Dear Graham,
I do aikido despite my body being out of commission and my mind like a bag of spanners.Cheers, joe

Tom Verhoeven
06-14-2012, 07:13 PM
The Essential Rumi by Coleman Barks.
Search YouTube for Coleman Barks. His channeling of Rumi knocks my socks off. A good friend of mine studied under Coleman in Athens, Ga. Instead of sufi Dirvish twirling, Coleman and Loring would drink and dance to Bluegrass music, Pylon and the B-52's.

As an aside, So many folks don't get it about these deeply spiritual beings. When Jesus, for instance, invited the tax collectors and "sinners" to his house for dinner, (Luke 15:2), that wasn't a formal dinner party. It was a festive party atmosphere where people reclined and drank wine (Luke 7:34; Matthew 11:9).

Smiling Deeply,

Chris
Actually, I don't think I ever read it like that. Luke 14:12 I would have read as a form of Bhakti yoga. Or as a christian virtue to "do good" (in which case it still could be seen as a form of repayment in the form of gratitude).
But I don't think I realized that he invited the tax collectors and sinners in his house and reading it as a festive party gives it a different meaning.
I am reminded of the organisation that my Aikido sensei is involved in, organizing shared meals with orphaned children to give them joy and if I remember correctly, opposing groups in third world countries. The meals are joyous events for everyone involved, and the idea is that people who share a festive meal together no longer long to fight each other.
He got this from O Sensei who pointed out that Aikido should bring people together and bring joy and happiness to everyone.

Thank you for your wisdom and for making me pick up my bible again.
Tom

graham christian
06-14-2012, 08:14 PM
Graham
If the spark plugs are fouled, tires are flat, one or two missing, out of gas, missing the starter motor...or like that....no matter how conditioned the driver is they go no where.....and even a condition mind can carry the car...... just like cars are not maintained so bodies are not. sitting zazen in seiza for twenty years may settle your mind, but mostly it gives us tight a#$ white guys bad knees, it does nothing to help lineup the transmission of whatever you are transmitting out of the body to effect whatever it is you are trying to effect......... All three need complementary work to be efficient. What I have seen most of my life is heavy work on spirit and mind....thinking that practice of waza 3 times a week as a single approach to body work is enough..... maybe with a cooperative approach to practice that is enough, but to be effective past a preliminary level it is not.. ..... find a middle ground here or you lose me completely....

Gary

Gary, I did say above that bodies are maintained. For specific activities ie: marathon etc. you would have to condition it differently. Why? So it can cope.

Here's the thing: 'The car no matter how advanced cannot improve you the spirit or your mind.' It cannot drive you, you can however drive it and improve it. You use it not the other way around. It does use what you give it though including your Ki.

Anyway, I know you are really talking about conditioning certain things with regards to the body ie: internal.

Unfortunately you can't have it both ways.

Heavy work on spirit and mind, practicing waza, as a single approach to body work? All body work has spirit and mind involved so that is the single approach and is all three involved so what's your point?

Firstly I think you misunderstand spiritual activities like yoga or 'sitting zazen' for twenty years. (you can sit in a chair if you like) Your misunderstanding is that the physical calms the mind and spirit. Totally wrong and backwards. All yoga's and zen and spiritual disciplines like such work just as I said before: Spirit calms mind which calms body. The body calms nothing.They all are to do with you controlling your mind, doing mental exercises to bring about desired effect in the body and thus all three in harmony.

Now experts in this let's say yoga can transmit and effect things around them. The point is that the body is made quiet and relaxed and then the yogi can get up to whatever it is he is practicing 'without' the body. Why? Because self improvement is a spiritual activity and mental discipline.

I gave an example in another thread how a short lady came and watched Aikido and liked what she saw. She was quite a bubbly spiritual friend of mine. Never done any martial art or 'body conditioning' specialized activity yet she asked if she could try. She wanted to do 'that thing' where two people can't lift you up. Just whispering one thing in her ear and she could do it. Two big guys couldn't budge her.

So the above is to get reality straight first.

Now, I know you are thinking about the body conditioning and really talking about I/P. So why keep saying it's all about body? All those I/P things are part spiritual and part mental exercises with the body. The emphasis is spiritual and mental actually, unfortunately I would suspect more mental.

So yes it is working with all three emphasizing complimentary and efficient. So what's so new and mind blowing or eye opening about that to you? I would really like to know. The fact that so many here have said how it has been so to them leads me to think that they haven't been relating and complimenting all three before. Is this true?

Now, finally I will say this. Not for the first time in history a fellow comes along, quite an enlightened fellow and says you can do this spiritual advancement activity with mental discipline with body work involved. In other words not just spirit and mind but using the body at the same time in action. It's not new, Bodhidharma did the same thing although he did it with monks. His reasons were more to to with stopping them deluding themselves and keeping it real. Zen has the similar view in as much as keeping wide awake and alert in now, zanshin. Spirit in now calms mind and body.

So I like the 'all three in harmony' way and thus see how Aikido is perfect for such as not only do you have to learn how to keep all three in harmony but to do so in the face of someone trying their best to stop you doing so by the means of actually attacking you. What better test could their be?

So the middle ground can only be when you say in each exercise that you do what the three things are that you are doing. What are you doing spiritually?, what are you doing mentally? and what are you doing physically? in that one exercise. Then you could add for what purpose and to what effect?

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-14-2012, 08:20 PM
Dear Graham,
I do aikido despite my body being out of commission and my mind like a bag of spanners.Cheers, joe

Ha, ha, enlightenment!

There's one thing I can say about you Joe and that is that you definitely do Aikido. With all those spanners I bet you've been into a great array of nuts and bolts of Aikido in your time. With a few extra spanners for those stubborn nuts.;)

Peace. G.

Chris Parkerson
06-14-2012, 09:06 PM
Ha, ha, enlightenment!

There's one thing I can say about you Joe and that is that you definitely do Aikido. With all those spanners I bet you've been into a great array of nuts and bolts of Aikido in your time. With a few extra spanners for those stubborn nuts.;)

Peace. G.

Wow! Can aikido be done without a mobilizable body?
I love it. New thread perhaps?

My Yanagi teacher used the strategy of his art both in the courtroom and in all human negotiations. A Real llive Yoda, he is.

And we taught work tasks using the body mechanics skills from the internal martial arts to government agencies, universities, and corporations. And as our bodies become limited, using what we have efficiently to accomplish the same result was a great creative project in Aiki. All of this, to me, was
doing Aiki.

: )

Chris

Gary David
06-14-2012, 11:52 PM
Graham
You have missed me completely......The appearance to you of my limitations are clear in your responses..... Good luck with the rest of your journey........

Chris
I am disappointed.....your Yanagi teacher is one of my best friends.....I thought you knew me better....

asta la bye bye

Gary

Alex Megann
06-15-2012, 03:24 AM
Wow! Can aikido be done without a mobilizable body?
I love it. New thread perhaps?



My nuts and bolts definitely need new threads... :)

Alex

Chris Parkerson
06-15-2012, 06:31 AM
Gary,

Do you limit Aikido just to a body art? I affirm the body art. I affirm all you say about it. I affirm Dan and his skills. I honor my teacher.

But what are you, as a teacher, offering Stephen who just had a stroke? He is in a wheel chair? So is Joe Arriola. How about a paraplegic. Can they study aikido? Is someone allowed to ask such a question under this thread or on this site?

Is your definition of Aikido reductionistic? I am asking this in sincerity.

Chris

SteveTrinkle
06-15-2012, 07:52 AM
Graham
You have missed me completely......The appearance to you of my limitations are clear in your responses..... Good luck with the rest of your journey........

Chris
I am disappointed.....your Yanagi teacher is one of my best friends.....I thought you knew me better....

asta la bye bye

Gary???????i don't have a yanagi teacher

SteveTrinkle
06-15-2012, 07:56 AM
hi chris nice talking with you the other day all the best to you

Chris Parkerson
06-15-2012, 08:06 AM
And to you as well Steven. I look forward to the next phone conversation. It was honored that you would share your experience with me.

Gassho

Chris

Gary David
06-15-2012, 10:01 AM
Gary,
But what are you, as a teacher, offering Stephen who just had a stroke? He is in a wheel chair? So is Joe Arriola. How about a paraplegic. Can they study aikido? Is someone allowed to ask such a question under this thread or on this site?

Is your definition of Aikido reductionistic? I am asking this in sincerity.

Chris

Chris
Your questions above are like asking me why I don't like motherhood, apple pie and the American flag....how am I suppose to answer them....

My part in this thread was directed at Graham in response to his laying out of his version of Aikido. My questions to him about his nikkyo were ask for me to get a better understanding of how he did these mechanically.... I got my answers and when I shared my approach it was clear to my we were not on the same page or that any effort at an understanding of what I was doing was taking place. I am fine with that......

Somehow folks seem to think that the body is the third wheel in the set and you only have to make sure it works at a cooperative level with others. Like your Yanagi teacher I am doing my best to figure out how to work around the body parts that don't function like they did when I was 55 or younger. The parts still function, but they seem to wake up at different times or decide on their own to take a break from time to time.

My talking body was NEVER to say that one needed to have a perfect body to do any of this or that people couldn't work their approach to this art from where ever they are coming from.

Spirit is not first with me....it is just one of a set.....leave one out, short one in practice...the whole is less than the sum of the parts. And cooperative practice is not the key here.

see ya

Gary

Kevin Leavitt
06-15-2012, 10:21 AM
Good points. Training is adaptive. You can choose to do that or not. As I get older, my training certainly is changing. That said, how I currently train...not a place for kids or wheelchair bound individuals.

My son is 12 and he is studying Aikido. Albeit with a different teacher that teaches kids.

Much like Gary, I've said before. I am good with Graham doing whatever Graham wants to do. Based on our conversations, we don't have much common ground hence why I don't engage too much with him here. Not a big deal.

Chris Parkerson
06-15-2012, 11:29 AM
Gary,

Why would you say you are disappointed in me after I suggest having a new thread for Aikido taught as strategy (one of John Clodig's teachings) or as efficiency in daily work tasks (another of John's teachings)?
I suspect we were having two separate conversations with Graham.
I have doubted you two will find common ground using words and have said so on the other thread.
And under a thread that talks about Spiritual Aikido, I do not think what I said was inappropriate.

We can talk off line if you prefer.

Kevin, thanks for your input. I love to train hard. What has been just as hard and fulfilling for me as an adult warrior has been to find ways to give space to the ADD child and others who might benefit from training. But that is my path. Other's have their own path.


With respect,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-15-2012, 12:26 PM
Much like Gary, I've said before. I am good with Graham doing whatever Graham wants to do. Based on our conversations, we don't have much common ground hence why I don't engage too much with him here. Not a big deal.

Kevin, I was on the road earlier and answered rather hurriedly. I think I side tracked a bit in adding my approach to teaching kids. That is another discussion I would love to have some day.

I, too, am good with Graham being responsible for his own path. I have two presuppositions in coming to this forum after a 3 year hiatus. I mentioned them in other threads but not in a systematic way. So here they are:

1. Things that have substance, need no defense.
2. I choose to focus upon irenics ( what we have in common) rather than polemics (what we
appear to or actually disagree upon). Engaging in hot topic polemics in an Internet forum seems
to generate more heat than light. Belly to belly, folks sort such stuff out much better and often
laugh and share a brewsky afterwards. Those who choose not to go face to face, well, they
choose their own forms of isolation.
I am very grateful for our discussions in 2008-9. I am grateful for Robert Johns and Dan Harden's
communications back then. They caused me to test my current skills against all comers at the
Arnold Challenge. The photo I am using as an Avatar is from that time.
The guy who got uprooted and pushed out if the ring is Timothy Hwang. This photo was taken the
day before the event. I was fortunate a photographer was present. Tim is a pretty solid player in
extreme push hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InDLB1-o9mI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Perhaps I needed to know for myself if I still had what it takes to play against national class guys
in a Freeform competitive venue. My illusion completed, I now enjoy just training until.....

Gassho,

Chris

DH
06-15-2012, 12:43 PM
Three pages in I find nothing of substance either in classical reference, or in a practical new age reference as to how anyone's spirit informed their aikido....it all seems to be an etherial romp of vagueness without meaning.
I think, therefore I am....aikido...:rolleyes:
I thought...and then I failed in applying aiki...in front of someone who actually understands Ueshiba's "I am the universe."

There is a very real and practical method which joins the classical model with the hippy wanna-be's who just don't get how it all applies.
Aiki...is not...and never was...about joining. Solo training and spiritual reference had substance and meaning. The real work was done BEFORE ever touching hands.
Dan

Gary David
06-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Gary,

Why would you say you are disappointed in me.......

You paint me into a corner and don't see that?

I suggest having a new thread for Aikido taught as strategy (one of John Clodig's teachings) or as efficiency in daily work tasks (another of John's teachings)?

I would offer that you check with John on this before you go forward

Gary

Gary David
06-15-2012, 12:51 PM
Three pages in I find nothing of substance either in classical reference, or in a practical new age reference as to how anyone's spirit informed their aikido....it all seems to be an etherial romp of vagueness without meaning.
I think, therefore I am....aikido...:rolleyes:

I agree........I am out......

DH
06-15-2012, 01:00 PM
I would offer that you check with John on this before you go forward

Gary
Hi Bud
It can be difficult to train here and there and then be on film stating
Okomoto does this
Yanagi ryu does that
Kodokai does this

There is a well known guy in the Northeast who did just that and made a fool out of himself selling videos and then going up against some men who actually understood the work this guy was only mimicing.
All is not as it appears either by rank, copying others material, or by affilliation...huh?
See you soon, bud.
Dan

graham christian
06-15-2012, 01:01 PM
Wow! Can aikido be done without a mobilizable body?
I love it. New thread perhaps?

My Yanagi teacher used the strategy of his art both in the courtroom and in all human negotiations. A Real llive Yoda, he is.

And we taught work tasks using the body mechanics skills from the internal martial arts to government agencies, universities, and corporations. And as our bodies become limited, using what we have efficiently to accomplish the same result was a great creative project in Aiki. All of this, to me, was
doing Aiki.

: )

Chris

Don't do it.......ha, ha. Chris, I did say I like Aikido because all three are taken responsibility for. Aikido is with the body motions of course. Kokyu can be effective without touching though but still there is motion. Effects being caused by not doing so are of course possible but yes that would be another thread and the question then would be is that Aikido?

I would say it's surprising how often Aikido is done in such a way personally but that's another story.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-15-2012, 01:09 PM
Graham
You have missed me completely......The appearance to you of my limitations are clear in your responses..... Good luck with the rest of your journey........

Chris
I am disappointed.....your Yanagi teacher is one of my best friends.....I thought you knew me better....

asta la bye bye

Gary

Gary, why do you see it as such? I am more interested in your pluses ie: how and what you do internally, what solo exercises you do that benefit you.

It's not a competition you know and if I do things from a view you don't get it doesn't equal anything except me being open as to how I do things.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-15-2012, 01:16 PM
Three pages in I find nothing of substance either in classical reference, or in a practical new age reference as to how anyone's spirit informed their aikido....it all seems to be an etherial romp of vagueness without meaning.
I think, therefore I am....aikido...:rolleyes:
I thought...and then I failed in applying aiki...in front of someone who actually understands Ueshiba's "I am the universe."

There is a very real and practical method which joins the classical model with the hippy wanna-be's who just don't get how it all applies.
Aiki...is not...and never was...about joining. Solo training and spiritual reference had substance and meaning. The real work was done BEFORE ever touching hands.
Dan

I must be in a sad state of affairs as I have earned a
BA in Biblical Literature
MA in Church History
Graduated from Princeton Seminary
And am doing a PhD at Wisdom University global Wisdom Traditions.
Not to mention my MA in Security Management.

Again, I have been grateful for your input. This weekend, if you accept me, I will enroll at the Orange County Seminar.

Gassho,

Chris

DH
06-15-2012, 01:20 PM
Gary, why do you see it as such? I am more interested in your pluses ie: how and what you do internally, what solo exercises you do that benefit you.

It's not a competition you know and if I do things from a view you don't get it doesn't equal anything except me being open as to how I do things.

Peace.G.
Yet you've never made a single comprehensible post about what you are trying to do, nor a video successfully demonstrating you doing what you tell us you can do. Nor meeting people who can test it either. Hence the doubts.

No..it isn't about a competition...it's about accountability and actual ability to do what we say we can do.
Dan

graham christian
06-15-2012, 01:38 PM
Gary,

Do you limit Aikido just to a body art? I affirm the body art. I affirm all you say about it. I affirm Dan and his skills. I honor my teacher.

But what are you, as a teacher, offering Stephen who just had a stroke? He is in a wheel chair? So is Joe Arriola. How about a paraplegic. Can they study aikido? Is someone allowed to ask such a question under this thread or on this site?

Is your definition of Aikido reductionistic? I am asking this in sincerity.

Chris

http://youtu.be/qdhSThXDUQ4

For you Chris. Of course Aikido can be done from a wheelchair. In this day and age of paraolympics it shows all kinds of disabilities can be overcome.

I posted a video of a guy with one arm doing Aikido too a few months ago.

In fact the body itself can be a hindrance at times so are we not disabled too?

Recently my friend was invited to teach our Aikido at a center and was giving solo exercises to practice during the week to the students. They were all of mental 'disabilities' including schizophrenia etc. They all loved it and all gained and looked forward to the next class. Excellent.

It's all good.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-15-2012, 01:44 PM
Yet you've never made a single comprehensible post about what you are trying to do, nor a video successfully demonstrating you doing what you tell us you can do. Nor meeting people who can test it either. Hence the doubts.

No..it isn't about a competition...it's about accountability and actual ability to do what we say we can do.
Dan

When it comes to video Dan I think you are talking about yourself.

Lot's of comprehensible posts about what I do too. Maybe 'some' can't comprehend as well as they thought they could.

I have met plenty thank you.

Sorry mate, my accountability is using in life successfully.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-15-2012, 06:05 PM
Chris
Your questions above are like asking me why I don't like motherhood, apple pie and the American flag....how am I suppose to answer?

My talking body was NEVER to say that one needed to have a perfect body to do any of this or that people couldn't work their approach to this art from where ever they are coming from.

Spirit is not first with me....it is just one of a set.....leave one out, short one in practice...the whole is less than the sum of the parts. And cooperative practice is not the key here.

see ya

Gary

Eloquently put. I agree whole heartedly. Inner alchemy is key to efficient body work.
I got the impression I had disappointed you by asking the questions I asked. The phone call filled in our disconnect. I am glad we talked. Many of us assumed this happened with just doing Kata. Others of us searched out Chinese teachers. Many followed Mantak Chia's program. Some found better sources than others. We should be grateful to them if the take the time to share it publically.

I do wonder whether Ueshiba also was trained in and practiced a form of shamanism from his experience in Oomoto? If so, how would that correlate to the aikido practice?

Regards,

Chris

graham christian
06-16-2012, 07:18 AM
Indeed, how much import is given to the connection with Omoto religion? Not enough in my view. The connection with Omoto and Deguchi was all important I would say. Inoue was quite open about this.

Peace.G.

Tom Verhoeven
06-16-2012, 01:21 PM
Indeed, how much import is given to the connection with Omoto religion? Not enough in my view. The connection with Omoto and Deguchi was all important I would say. Inoue was quite open about this.

Peace.G.
Most likely everyone is familiar with it, but I would like to recommend Frederick Franck's book " an encounter with Oomoto, the great origin, a faith rooted in the ancient mysticism and the traditional arts of Japan (1975).
Franck witnessed a demonstration of Inoue's Shinwa Taido and describes it as " a particular esthetic form of Aikido".
He explains how the "sensuous life-affirmation of animistic Shinto fused with Buddhist acetisme and eschatology and Confucian precepts as filial piety and human-heartedness" was inherited by the Oomoto kyo. "In this spiritual and moral climate the Sacred is not verbalized or systematized, but experienced in manner one might characterize as esthetic". The Oomoto kyo see according to Franck, the esthetic experience in the traditional Japanese arts as poetry, painting, calligraphy, silence, humor, dance, theater, Aikido, as a way to experience the Sacred and to transmit religious moods and values.
The Oomoto kyo see Aikido as a spiritual practice / experience. Not as a fighting method.

Frederick Franck makes an interesting comparison with the French philosopher Teilhard de Chardin and the words of Nao Deguchi and Onisaburo Deguchi. Reading the spiritual ideas of the founders of Oomoto kyo everyone can see where many of O Sensei spiritual thoughts must have had its origin.

It is a small book, but it is filled with nice details and interesting facts.

Frederick Franck (Dutch - American) is known for books like "The Zen of seeing", his art work, and the work he did with Albert Schweitzer. He is the designer/sculptor of the chapel of peace at his home in Warwick, N.Y.

All the best!
Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Most likely everyone is familiar with it, but I would like to recommend Frederick Franck's book " an encounter with Oomoto, the great origin, a faith rooted in the ancient mysticism and the traditional arts of Japan (1975).
.......... the French philosopher Teilhard de Chardin and the words of Nao Deguchi and Onisaburo Deguchi. Reading the spiritual ideas of the founders of Oomoto kyo everyone can see where many of O Sensei spiritual thoughts must have had its origin.

It is a small book, but it is filled with nice details and interesting facts.

Frederick Franck (Dutch - American) is known for books like "The Zen of seeing", his art work, and the work he did with Albert Schweitzer. He is the designer/sculptor of the chapel of peace at his home in Warwick, N.Y.

All the best!
Tom
Many thanks Tom for this reference. I look forward to learning more about Oomoto Kyo through it. Teilhard de Chardin is one of my favorite 20th century theologians and my martial arts have never primarily been about fighting. Fighting is more the booby prize that results from the mindful discipline, creativity and bondedness between humans that martial training creates.

Gratitude,

Chris

graham christian
06-16-2012, 03:48 PM
Most likely everyone is familiar with it, but I would like to recommend Frederick Franck's book " an encounter with Oomoto, the great origin, a faith rooted in the ancient mysticism and the traditional arts of Japan (1975).
Franck witnessed a demonstration of Inoue's Shinwa Taido and describes it as " a particular esthetic form of Aikido".
He explains how the "sensuous life-affirmation of animistic Shinto fused with Buddhist acetisme and eschatology and Confucian precepts as filial piety and human-heartedness" was inherited by the Oomoto kyo. "In this spiritual and moral climate the Sacred is not verbalized or systematized, but experienced in manner one might characterize as esthetic". The Oomoto kyo see according to Franck, the esthetic experience in the traditional Japanese arts as poetry, painting, calligraphy, silence, humor, dance, theater, Aikido, as a way to experience the Sacred and to transmit religious moods and values.
The Oomoto kyo see Aikido as a spiritual practice / experience. Not as a fighting method.

Frederick Franck makes an interesting comparison with the French philosopher Teilhard de Chardin and the words of Nao Deguchi and Onisaburo Deguchi. Reading the spiritual ideas of the founders of Oomoto kyo everyone can see where many of O Sensei spiritual thoughts must have had its origin.

It is a small book, but it is filled with nice details and interesting facts.

Frederick Franck (Dutch - American) is known for books like "The Zen of seeing", his art work, and the work he did with Albert Schweitzer. He is the designer/sculptor of the chapel of peace at his home in Warwick, N.Y.

All the best!
Tom

Thanks. That's how I see it too although I haven't read the book you cite. I must give it a read, sounds interesting.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-16-2012, 08:25 PM
Here is another difference in my Aikido and I would say an age old difference pointed out by many an enlightened soul and always doubted but unfortunately twisted by those who miss the point.

In my Aikido we understand the principle of universal love and the spirit of loving protection for all things.

Therefor our sole aim is protecting the other person(s) Thus it's a game where everybody wins.

This also means there can be no enemy for that is a concept from win/lose, competition, right/wrong.etc.

Selfishness is the reason for not understanding this. All self defence forms and arts are selfish.

Based on the belief of protecting self thus justifying doing to others as they see fit. Thus they seek to be powerful, dominant, better than, etc. All ego.

Aikido is not selfish, it is all embrasive, in fact in spiritual terms it is selfless.

Thus the true concept of universal love and peace and harmony can never be understood by such folk as long as they view from such a base viewpoint. From the seven deadly sins to the words of Buddha to Jesus et al. this has been the message which later has been grabbed and twisted later for service to selfish means once again and power and control. Same ol same ol.

True budo.

Peace.G.

Tom Verhoeven
06-20-2012, 08:50 PM
Many thanks Tom for this reference. I look forward to learning more about Oomoto Kyo through it. Teilhard de Chardin is one of my favorite 20th century theologians and my martial arts have never primarily been about fighting. Fighting is more the booby prize that results from the mindful discipline, creativity and bondedness between humans that martial training creates.

Gratitude,

Chris
Chris,
You're most welcome. Quite some time ago I read Carmen Blacker's book The Catalpa Bow. It is "a study of shamanistic practices in Japan" (subtitel). There is also a chapter on Onisaburo Deguchi of Oomoto kyo in it.
Interesting read.
Long time ago I also read a book on the rituals and shamanistic practices of the Hopi.
Is there any change you could recommend a book on shamanism in the tradition that you are involved in?

Be well,
Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-20-2012, 09:23 PM
Here is another difference in my Aikido and I would say an age old difference pointed out by many an enlightened soul and always doubted but unfortunately twisted by those who miss the point.

In my Aikido we understand the principle of universal love and the spirit of loving protection for all things.

Therefor our sole aim is protecting the other person(s) Thus it's a game where everybody wins.

This also means there can be no enemy for that is a concept from win/lose, competition, right/wrong.etc.

Selfishness is the reason for not understanding this. All self defence forms and arts are selfish.

Based on the belief of protecting self thus justifying doing to others as they see fit. Thus they seek to be powerful, dominant, better than, etc. All ego.

Aikido is not selfish, it is all embrasive, in fact in spiritual terms it is selfless.

Thus the true concept of universal love and peace and harmony can never be understood by such folk as long as they view from such a base viewpoint. From the seven deadly sins to the words of Buddha to Jesus et al. this has been the message which later has been grabbed and twisted later for service to selfish means once again and power and control. Same ol same ol.

True budo.

Peace.G.

Graham,
Sorry about your other thread. Feel I am a partly responsible for that - I did go on a bit and stayed too long on the same track. It drifted away from your original post. And kept drifting away even after I stopped adding to it.

Heard a story about a modern day Buddhist monk recently that you might enjoy. A Buddhist went to his teacher complaining that although he was fine with the life of a monk, he did not like the fact that people came to him and told him all the stories of their lives, their problems with day to day life, problems with work, with there husband or wife, with their family, and so on. He felt like there was no end to their problems and that they were bringing it to him, as if they were bringing their garbage into his room.
The monk expected to be released from this task, but his teacher said; "you are a Buddhist priest, this is your task. You listen to these people, give them advice when needed and you let them come and bring their garbage. And then you get yourself a garbage-can that on the inside is covered with teflon. The teflon makes it easy to empty the garbage-can. Your mind should be like that as well. With a teflon mind things may be thrown in, but they do not stick and it becomes easy to empty again."

Seems to me that you have had thrown a lot of garbage at you lately on AikiWeb. Yet I get the impression that fortunately it does not seem to stick. Just like the monk you seem to have acquired a teflon mind!

Best wishes!
Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-20-2012, 09:36 PM
Tom,

I just got my Oomoto kyo book in the mail today. I am excited about it.
Regarding shamanism, as a deep ecologist, i am deeply moved by Apela Colorado's position that one must first tap into your own DNA's indigenous mind. For me, that is Celtic, andalusian and Amerindian. Our ancestry is in our DNA, we also have a tribal memory. This connection is like a silver chord to our "knowing".

Thus, I am moved by the Hopi traditional elders like Dan Evehema as well as the Mayan Eagle Clan priests. Being from Texas (Father's side since 1820 and mother's side from Mexico and Spaniards, Teotijuacan, Yaqui curanderos and Comanche shamanism is like eating locally grown veggies.
My Spanish (Andalusian) connection has all the emotive connection to mediterainian Sufism, and
Christian Mysticism as it runs through me like hot blood. Then comes my Asian practices. It is foolish not to dabble in the tantra.
My closest teachers right now are Will Taegel (Comanche/Lakota), Carlos Barrios (Mayan), and Andrew Harvey (Indian Raj and British). Each are well healed in mystic/Shamanistic practices as well as being highly educated.

Andrew Harvey is a poet, novelist, translator, mystical scholar and lecturer. At the age of 21, he became the youngest person ever to be awarded the Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford University. England's highest academic honor. He has taught at Oxford, Cornell, Hobart and Smith Colleges, California Institute of Integral Studies, and UCS. Honors he has received include the Benjamin Franklin Award and the Mind Body Spirit Award and the Christmas Humphries Award. He is the author and editor of over 30 books including: The Return of the Mother and Son of Man: The Mystical Path to Christ, and The Direct Path. He is Founder and Director of the Institute of Sacred Activism, and his forthcoming bookáThe Hope: A Guide to Sacred Activismáis being published in

Dr. Apela Colorado, a member of the Oneida tribe and traditional cultural practitioner, created the first doctoral program in traditional knowledge at the California Institute of Integral Studies. She also established the Spirit Camp cultural revitalization project at the University of Alaska and began the Native Social Work concentration at the University of Calgary. With assistance from the Canadian International Development Agency, Dr. Colorado founded the Worldwide Indigenous Science Network (WISN) in 1989. WISN brought together western scientists and indigenous practitioners of traditional knowledge in a series of international workshops, conferences, and overseas projects. The work created a forum and established a process to promote consensus, collaboration and cooperation between experts of western and indigenous knowledge in conservation and education programs and alternative resource development. Dr. Colorado is Director of Wisdom University's Indigenous Mind Program, which offers Masters and Ph.D. degrees.

Will Taegel (website)

Ph.D., Wisdom University

D. Min, Graduate Theological Union

M. Div., Emory University, Summa Cum Laude

B. A., McMurry University, Summa Cum Laude

Licensed Professional Counselor, State of Texas

Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, State of Texas

Will Taegel brings an integral approach to his work at Wisdom University as Vice President of Academic Affairs and Chair of the Academic Council. áHe weds his Native American background and traditional training in shamanic circles with his 30 year practice of psychotherapy, including a stint as Chair of the Texas State Board of Examiners in Psychotherapy. áHe balances áhis academic interest in evolution and trauma with the spiritual practice of rain water collection, solar and wind energy, and environmental restoration. áHe is the author of 8 books and numerous professional articles. áHe was among the first researchers to connect clinical and cultural disturbance with human estrangement from the sacred core of Nature and, in that regard, to build a number of ongoing eco-spiritual communitiesáand is the co-founder, with Judith Yost, of an eco-spiritual, integral practice community called the Earthtribe.á

The above are my mentors at Wisdom university. At any given class, there are about 30 shamans from various traditions.

Finally,Carlos Barrios was given permission by Wandering Wolf (Don Alejandro Perez Oxlaj) to conduct fire ceremonies for non Mayans. I was present at the first one (in Beliz) and follow their message closely. I hope to get closer to their practice some day.

Puha

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-20-2012, 10:37 PM
If I were to recommend books, they would be less historical. They would be writings and stories designed to pull you into and through the veil itself.

Toltec: don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=don%20Miguel%20Ruiz&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Adon%20Miguel%20Ruiz&page=1
Mayan: Carlos Barrios
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=don%20Miguel%20Ruiz&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Adon%20Miguel%20Ruiz&page=1#/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Carlos+Barrios&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ACarlos+Barrios

Will Taegel
http://www.amazon.com/Many-Colored-Buffalo-Transformation-Psychotherapy/dp/0893917397/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1340249428&sr=1-1&keywords=William+Taegel

Black Elk
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Elk-Speaks-Premier-Edition/dp/1438425406/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1340249563&sr=1-1&keywords=black+elk+speaks

Andrew Harvey
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_box_?k=Andrew+harvey

David Abram
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s_?k=Becoming+animal

Happy journey

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-21-2012, 07:41 AM
I just slept on what I wrote:

You might want to begin with
Abrams: becoming Animal
Then Derrick Jensens'
"A Language Older Than Words"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1931498555

Then
Peter Kingsley
A Story Waiting to Pierce You: Mongolia, Tibet and the Destiny of the Western World
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1890350214

If you want to be shaken to the core.

Chris

mathewjgano
06-21-2012, 12:57 PM
Graham,
Sorry about your other thread. Feel I am a partly responsible for that - I did go on a bit and stayed too long on the same track. It drifted away from your original post. And kept drifting away even after I stopped adding to it.

Heard a story about a modern day Buddhist monk recently that you might enjoy. A Buddhist went to his teacher complaining that although he was fine with the life of a monk, he did not like the fact that people came to him and told him all the stories of their lives, their problems with day to day life, problems with work, with there husband or wife, with their family, and so on. He felt like there was no end to their problems and that they were bringing it to him, as if they were bringing their garbage into his room.
The monk expected to be released from this task, but his teacher said; "you are a Buddhist priest, this is your task. You listen to these people, give them advice when needed and you let them come and bring their garbage. And then you get yourself a garbage-can that on the inside is covered with teflon. The teflon makes it easy to empty the garbage-can. Your mind should be like that as well. With a teflon mind things may be thrown in, but they do not stick and it becomes easy to empty again."

Seems to me that you have had thrown a lot of garbage at you lately on AikiWeb. Yet I get the impression that fortunately it does not seem to stick. Just like the monk you seem to have acquired a teflon mind!

Best wishes!
Tom

I feel I owe an apology as well. It's too easy sometimes to fire off a post. Conversations naturally meander a bit, but there were a couple times where I realized I was more talking about communication issues than spiritual or IP issues. Rather than create a new thread, I was lazy...they were tengential at best, so I'm sorry for that.
I like that idea of the teflon mind and think it's in the proper spirit for budo...what little I can be said to understand of it, anyway. Picking your battles; deciding which things to cling to and which to let go of can be very subtle and often are under-appreciated. Aikiweb often serves as a good reminder for me in this...even though I probably often forget it.
Sincerely,
Matthew

graham christian
06-21-2012, 01:03 PM
Graham,
Sorry about your other thread. Feel I am a partly responsible for that - I did go on a bit and stayed too long on the same track. It drifted away from your original post. And kept drifting away even after I stopped adding to it.

Heard a story about a modern day Buddhist monk recently that you might enjoy. A Buddhist went to his teacher complaining that although he was fine with the life of a monk, he did not like the fact that people came to him and told him all the stories of their lives, their problems with day to day life, problems with work, with there husband or wife, with their family, and so on. He felt like there was no end to their problems and that they were bringing it to him, as if they were bringing their garbage into his room.
The monk expected to be released from this task, but his teacher said; "you are a Buddhist priest, this is your task. You listen to these people, give them advice when needed and you let them come and bring their garbage. And then you get yourself a garbage-can that on the inside is covered with teflon. The teflon makes it easy to empty the garbage-can. Your mind should be like that as well. With a teflon mind things may be thrown in, but they do not stick and it becomes easy to empty again."

Seems to me that you have had thrown a lot of garbage at you lately on AikiWeb. Yet I get the impression that fortunately it does not seem to stick. Just like the monk you seem to have acquired a teflon mind!

Best wishes!
Tom

Don't worry Tom, I doubt you were the main reason.

Like your Buddhist monk story. I wrote earlier how sympathy leaves you covered in others stuff whereas empathy allows you to be with them yet remain yourself clear and 'teflon.

I follow this rule in Aikido and life and it's more like this: They come, they leave in a better condition.

So I understand the story well for as soon as you are a good listener and willing to be with then people turn up non-stop to give you their problems. So I end up being in life counselor, healer and guide. To me it's all Aikido.

In this world of 'should be's and must be's and "now I'm supposed to's" I find it's best to just carry on improving your own self and ability and staying on the path. Someone comes they are coming for a reason and to me that is all there is, it's not a problem, it's all good. Improve self, help others improve themselves, what better game is there?

Thanks for the post.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-21-2012, 01:12 PM
I feel I owe an apology as well. It's too easy sometimes to fire off a post. Conversations naturally meander a bit, but there were a couple times where I realized I was more talking about communication issues than spiritual or IP issues. Rather than create a new thread, I was lazy...they were tengential at best, so I'm sorry for that.
I like that idea of the teflon mind and think it's in the proper spirit for budo...what little I can be said to understand of it, anyway. Picking your battles; deciding which things to cling to and which to let go of can be very subtle and often are under-appreciated. Aikiweb often serves as a good reminder for me in this...even though I probably often forget it.
Sincerely,
Matthew

Hi Matthew.
You are one of the least guilty and I too am guilty. It's interesting how we can be led or even get carried away ourselves at times.

I found it fascinating when asked to answer questions which are off topic and yet feeling it's rude not to but this also leads to more and more off topic.

A very important part of Ki Aikido for example is leading Ki or leading the mind and so it is on here too. Good practice for staying centred and 'immovable mind' etc. I would say.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-21-2012, 02:16 PM
As for me, I apologize to you as well.
And as for this thread, I would like to know...
Were you only intending to focus on your Spiritual Aikido or were you inviting others to share their experience of Spirit as well?

Best Regards,

Chris

C. David Henderson
06-21-2012, 02:53 PM
This bears upon empathy and, I believe, aikido:

http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html

graham christian
06-21-2012, 02:57 PM
As for me, I apologize to you as well.
And as for this thread, I would like to know...
Were you only intending to focus on your Spiritual Aikido or were you inviting others to share their experience of Spirit as well?

Best Regards,

Chris

Hi Chris. I think that other thread did quite well really considering. There have been much worse.

Good question though. I would love to hear any spiritual perspectives especially in relation to Aikido and principles thereof.

I'm not really into 'argument' but more into sharing so feel free.

I use the principle of acceptance and relate it to centre as you may well have read before. Thus I see 'argument' more as a lazy mind activity rather than constructive communication or debate. Argument tends for the most part to lack acceptance and therefor those who continually do so lack centre. This is all part of my Aikido and way for example.

Peace.G.

Tom Verhoeven
06-21-2012, 03:44 PM
As for me, I apologize to you as well.
And as for this thread, I would like to know...
Were you only intending to focus on your Spiritual Aikido or were you inviting others to share their experience of Spirit as well?

Best Regards,

Chris

That is a really good suggestion!
Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-21-2012, 03:52 PM
Hi Chris. I think that other thread did quite well really considering. There have been much worse.

Good question though. I would love to hear any spiritual perspectives especially in relation to Aikido and principles thereof.

I'm not really into 'argument' but more into sharing so feel free.

I use the principle of acceptance and relate it to centre as you may well have read before. Thus I see 'argument' more as a lazy mind activity rather than constructive communication or debate. Argument tends for the most part to lack acceptance and therefor those who continually do so lack centre. This is all part of my Aikido and way for example.

Peace.G.

Graham,
Sounds like a good suggestion to me. Perhaps you should formulate some clear rules? I too would like to hear others spiritual perspective in relation to Aikido. But would prefer to see it without judgement and debate.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-21-2012, 04:08 PM
I just slept on what I wrote:

You might want to begin with
Abrams: becoming Animal
Then Derrick Jensens'
"A Language Older Than Words"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1931498555

Then
Peter Kingsley
A Story Waiting to Pierce You: Mongolia, Tibet and the Destiny of the Western World
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1890350214

If you want to be shaken to the core.

Chris

Chris,
Thank you very much for this booklist. I read Black Elk, but the other names are all new to me.
I am intrigued by the idea of tribal memory. It fits in with my own experiences, but did not know that there were texts available on that subject. Ecology, living in and with nature is important to me, even more so since I moved to France. But the link with shamanism is harder too find here, I think.

I think you have set me on a new track.

Thanks!

Gassho,

Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-21-2012, 04:54 PM
Chris,
Thank you very much for this booklist. I read Black Elk, but the other names are all new to me.
I am intrigued by the idea of tribal memory. It fits in with my own experiences, but did not know that there were texts available on that subject. Ecology, living in and with nature is important to me, even more so since I moved to France. But the link with shamanism is harder too find here, I think.

I think you have set me on a new track.

Thanks!

Gassho,

Tom

If you can, go to Chartres Cathedral on July 1-7. You can meet probably 70 shamans there. This cathedral is built upon ley lines and with a very strict sacred geometry. They will be studying sacred Astronomica this summer. Many of the leaders are dowsers and such. The energy will literally be bouncing off the walls during that week.

Jim Garrison, Will Taegel and Andrew harvey will definitely be there. I have to miss it.

https://www.wisdomuniversity.org/ChartresOverview.htm

or Avebury, UK June 23-29.
https://www.wisdomuniversity.org/AveburyOverview.htm

Be Well,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-21-2012, 05:00 PM
Heaven and earth

Earth

There is so much talk these days about being grounded in the martial traditions. All the while, we wear shoes that most likely have rubber soles and walk on fabricated slabs of concrete suspended in office high rises. We sit in chairs with our feet barely touching the ground. We ride in cars that roll so fast upon the roads that we cannot sense the changes of micro-climate, texture or smell along the road. We fly in airplanes that shield us from any sense of grounding. And we sleep in beds elevated on four posts. It is very rare that we take the time to dig our toes into the earth and feel gravity do its thing.

That gravitational force that holds us to the ground was once called “Eros”. Perhaps it is the natural desire of our body to caress the ground that inspired the Greek cosmologists to name it that way. And perhaps we all give assent to this model when we say we “fall in love” as if we cannot resist the force of gravity.

But earth does not take without giving back. Neither I nor the earth is an object in this interplay. Feminist writers have often shown us how, even in our language, we have etched a fear-based objectification of all things animate and inanimate. Consider the sentence, “I make love to this woman”. “I” is the subject. “Make love” is the verb. “To this woman” is the object. This one sentence encompasses thousands of years of domination and patriarchy, as if someone is objectified as the “other” you can do violence to them.

Not so with the earth. Once I learn and respect the nature of earth, she and I are subjects engaging in interplay. She is the greater force, but not one to be feared. We engage in Eros together, as partners. She returns her essence through me as I surrender my weight to her. And if I remain structurally sound, her gifts can move through me and can be directed by my intention.

This kind of relationship cannot be reductionist. You cannot just quote Newton and say, “you push on the earth and the earth pushes back.” Hans Gadamer, perhaps, found the better metaphor. It is the interplay between two subjects. We make love together. I learn from her like she is my mother. When I sleep, I melt into her and receive healing. There is no need to push on her as would an impatient child clamoring to get a response from an adult. Her response comes naturally. And when it comes, if we are patient, the energies and momentums flow through us to perform work, to heal and to respond to aggression.

Touching Heaven

Earth is dwarfed by the heavens. And within the heavens, there are multitudes of planets and suns that, like the earth, pull upon me with Eros. They elongate me and massage my upper torso as they lift my frame. Indeed, I would be flung into the arms of heaven if it was not for the earth also caressing me. We develop the perfect mÚnage-a-trois.

My breath fills the bellows of my lungs as I am lifted. My crown point naturally aligns directly over my perineum. My pelvic girdle relaxes and tucks. My belly button sinks towards my spine and as I exhale, my whole frontal centerline sinks along with it; deeper and deeper into my spine. The pressure feels like a balloon within a balloon as I breath again.

As the heavens and I love, I find that they, too, are generous. Energy pours down into me as if I were an erect antenna and fuses with the energy of the earth.
I constrict my muscles as heavenly, earthly and my own energy flows and moves as a forward rotating ball within my lower belly. The mixture moves into my limbs and presses it into my bones with each flexion as if I was bathing in a bath of elixir. The elixir streams down and through my organs, sometimes like a subtle effervescence.

As I work, the process occurs naturally, my two lovers ever-present and never tiring. And as I give them my attention, they awaken my spine and limbs. My organs are filled with supple joy. Who would refuse such surrender as the ebb and flow of their tides cause the boundaries of my body to become nebulous. Where do I end and where do my lovers begin?

I invite my human partner into this flow. It is tantric. We test the stability of each other’s antenna, toppling and somersaulting as we grin. There is no adversary. There are only molecules dancing. Clumps of molecules and atoms; cells, together, creating form. And forms moving, dancing, and at play and in harmony.

I see an aggressor intruding into this flow. But he is pushing upon the earth and avoiding the heavens. His antenna is kinked at the base. Blending in this relationship is without contention. No fear, no emotion, no harm. I offer love, but as he presses, I offer weight to his unstable frame and the earth receives him. I whisper into his ear that he should remain there and be healed for a while. The earth wants to make love with him too. So do the heavens.

Lovingly,

Chris

graham christian
06-21-2012, 06:29 PM
Heaven and earth

Earth

There is so much talk these days about being grounded in the martial traditions. All the while, we wear shoes that most likely have rubber soles and walk on fabricated slabs of concrete suspended in office high rises. We sit in chairs with our feet barely touching the ground. We ride in cars that roll so fast upon the roads that we cannot sense the changes of micro-climate, texture or smell along the road. We fly in airplanes that shield us from any sense of grounding. And we sleep in beds elevated on four posts. It is very rare that we take the time to dig our toes into the earth and feel gravity do its thing.

That gravitational force that holds us to the ground was once called “Eros”. Perhaps it is the natural desire of our body to caress the ground that inspired the Greek cosmologists to name it that way. And perhaps we all give assent to this model when we say we “fall in love” as if we cannot resist the force of gravity.

But earth does not take without giving back. Neither I nor the earth is an object in this interplay. Feminist writers have often shown us how, even in our language, we have etched a fear-based objectification of all things animate and inanimate. Consider the sentence, “I make love to this woman”. “I” is the subject. “Make love” is the verb. “To this woman” is the object. This one sentence encompasses thousands of years of domination and patriarchy, as if someone is objectified as the “other” you can do violence to them.

Not so with the earth. Once I learn and respect the nature of earth, she and I are subjects engaging in interplay. She is the greater force, but not one to be feared. We engage in Eros together, as partners. She returns her essence through me as I surrender my weight to her. And if I remain structurally sound, her gifts can move through me and can be directed by my intention.

This kind of relationship cannot be reductionist. You cannot just quote Newton and say, “you push on the earth and the earth pushes back.” Hans Gadamer, perhaps, found the better metaphor. It is the interplay between two subjects. We make love together. I learn from her like she is my mother. When I sleep, I melt into her and receive healing. There is no need to push on her as would an impatient child clamoring to get a response from an adult. Her response comes naturally. And when it comes, if we are patient, the energies and momentums flow through us to perform work, to heal and to respond to aggression.

Touching Heaven

Earth is dwarfed by the heavens. And within the heavens, there are multitudes of planets and suns that, like the earth, pull upon me with Eros. They elongate me and massage my upper torso as they lift my frame. Indeed, I would be flung into the arms of heaven if it was not for the earth also caressing me. We develop the perfect mÚnage-a-trois.

My breath fills the bellows of my lungs as I am lifted. My crown point naturally aligns directly over my perineum. My pelvic girdle relaxes and tucks. My belly button sinks towards my spine and as I exhale, my whole frontal centerline sinks along with it; deeper and deeper into my spine. The pressure feels like a balloon within a balloon as I breath again.

As the heavens and I love, I find that they, too, are generous. Energy pours down into me as if I were an erect antenna and fuses with the energy of the earth.
I constrict my muscles as heavenly, earthly and my own energy flows and moves as a forward rotating ball within my lower belly. The mixture moves into my limbs and presses it into my bones with each flexion as if I was bathing in a bath of elixir. The elixir streams down and through my organs, sometimes like a subtle effervescence.

As I work, the process occurs naturally, my two lovers ever-present and never tiring. And as I give them my attention, they awaken my spine and limbs. My organs are filled with supple joy. Who would refuse such surrender as the ebb and flow of their tides cause the boundaries of my body to become nebulous. Where do I end and where do my lovers begin?

I invite my human partner into this flow. It is tantric. We test the stability of each other’s antenna, toppling and somersaulting as we grin. There is no adversary. There are only molecules dancing. Clumps of molecules and atoms; cells, together, creating form. And forms moving, dancing, and at play and in harmony.

I see an aggressor intruding into this flow. But he is pushing upon the earth and avoiding the heavens. His antenna is kinked at the base. Blending in this relationship is without contention. No fear, no emotion, no harm. I offer love, but as he presses, I offer weight to his unstable frame and the earth receives him. I whisper into his ear that he should remain there and be healed for a while. The earth wants to make love with him too. So do the heavens.

Lovingly,

Chris

That's very good writing....it flows and breathes with the subject. Quite a talent and a great read, thanks.

Tom, I don't think I could make rules as such for the rules of the forum are enough I think and I don't want to control what people should or shouldn't say. However Chris's post above gave me an idea of writing kind of spiritually descriptive and even poetic about my experience of Aikido. Mmmm. Interesting.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-21-2012, 07:08 PM
Earth

Gravity, that all powerful attraction. I meet it by learning to let go of the body. All part of non-attatchment.

The base of the spine opens like a doorway as I become one with mother nature and enter the void. Faith joins in. Faith like a great bowl below the earth and this I call Koshi. Koshi and the void from which mother nature gives all.

I feel the river, I become the river, I feel the rocks, I become the rocks, I feel any part of mother nature I become that part, the body joins in. Infinite capacity. Feel the wind and flow.

The home of the soul and as I go to bed and sink into the mattress Koshi opens and soul goes home to rest and I sink into koshi, the void.

As I do Aikido the void of koshi receives any and everything any opponent offers into nothingness and gives back nothing, that nothing which joins them to gravity and returns them to mother nature. It is not a ton weight it is merely an opening to koshi, a meeting with mother nature, a reminder of part of their true self and the universe.

Each move is a lesson. A reminder of their own potential and divinity. A wake up call. An invite.

The energy of mother nature floods through the body for it comes from her and it returns to her and so it is I who am the borrower engaged in this this universal existence and the magic of life.

Each day and each night is Aikido.

Peace.G.

DH
06-22-2012, 12:51 AM
As I step on the mat...I take apart everyone who thinks like the above examples .......I thank good training, not mother earth, eros, father sky...or anything else that essentially does not one meaningful thing to help those followimg such paths.....
To remain vertical.
Dan

Chris Knight
06-22-2012, 02:57 AM
As I step on the mat...I take apart everyone who thinks like the above examples .......I thank good training, not mother earth, eros, father sky...or anything else that essentially does not one meaningful thing to help those followimg such paths.....
To remain vertical.
Dan

amen

woudew
06-22-2012, 03:07 AM
As I step on the mat...I take apart everyone who thinks like the above examples .......I thank good training, not mother earth, eros, father sky...or anything else that essentially does not one meaningful thing to help those followimg such paths.....
To remain vertical.
Dan

Not even Eros?

o wait, thats not vertical, more ....................

Marc Abrams
06-22-2012, 10:15 AM
Death Haiku for Spiritual Aikido

Words, Just Empty Words
No Depth, No Spirit, No Use
Uncle Darwin Smiles

Marc Abrams

mathewjgano
06-22-2012, 11:08 AM
As I step on the mat...I take apart everyone who thinks like the above examples .......I thank good training, not mother earth, eros, father sky...or anything else that essentially does not one meaningful thing to help those followimg such paths.....
To remain vertical.
Dan

:D Please pass the glue!
Surely they do at least one thing to help those following such paths. The question is what. Let's assume they don't undertsand how to use their mind-body as well as you, like just about everyone else you teach, does that invalidate the spirituality of their Aikido? Does a "lesser" understanding invalidate the spirituality?

Marc Abrams
06-22-2012, 11:45 AM
:D Please pass the glue!
Surely they do at least one thing to help those following such paths. The question is what. Let's assume they don't undertsand how to use their mind-body as well as you, like just about everyone else you teach, does that invalidate the spirituality of their Aikido? Does a "lesser" understanding invalidate the spirituality?

Matthew:

Maybe we should look at your question from the opposite side. What is the validity of assumed spirituality in absence of consensual reality? In many respects, deep spirituality is integrally linked to the depth of reality of one's life (my opinion at least).

Marc Abrams

Chris Parkerson
06-22-2012, 12:31 PM
As I step on the mat...I take apart everyone who thinks like the above examples .......Dan

Of this, I have little doubt. You have made this your primary focus. I honor that and that is why I want to train with you.

As for me, I have made survival my primary forcus. I will be 59 years old in one week. I believe myself to be successful at my goal as well.

Since I began in Kenpo in 1974, I started protecting people and surviving. I survived being a drug and undocumented alien hunter while in the Border Patrol where I ecountered at least 40 "resistings" that were rather dangerous We often worked the King Ranch and Kennedy Ranches alone in the day and only with one partner at night. Back up could be a hour away. I survived every one of these fights without having to cause blood, bruises or broken bones on the perpetrators. That was my standard and I succeeded mainly due to Colonel Mark Mile's style of jujitsu and Russell Waddel's Tomiki Aikido. My kenpo would have just taken me to the opposite extreme and likely before the internal affairs board.

Before the Border patrol, in1983, I surived the the streets of Managua, Estelli and a dozen other Nicaraguan towns as I wrote my Thesis for the Master of Divinity at Princeton Seminary.

As a professional body guard for the last 21 years, I have gone unarmed in places most sane police would not go to in Mexico City, Tijuana, Mexicali, Juarez, Nuevo Laredo and Matamorros. In those places, you simply do not bring your "Boxer Rebellion" to the terrain in order to face down gangs with machine guns. Strategy became the greater tool. And with it, I survived.

When I was 50 years old, a government subcontractor hired me and let me carry a Tabook (pistol grip AK 47) in Baghdad, Iraq in 2004. Still, in that environment, teamwork with fields of fire and team-centered driving skills became the best strategy to protect my team, my client and myself (a new military-style paradigm for me rather than a State Department/Secret Service model), My empty hand and sword skills were much less of a priority, though I trained with the guys there both in Aikido and Jujitsu. If I or anyone there overly touted their fighting skills, the team would have become rather nervous as if that person were a loose cannon. Everyone had fighting skills on that team, the Brits, the Americans, the South Africans the Poles, the Lebanese, Spaniards and the Iraqi's.

Now, I am old. Like Sitting Bull, I would say, "Nothing is so strong as gentleness, nothing so gentle as real strengh".

That is my path. I do not judge anyone for having a different path. Neither does it mean I no longer want to perfect my martial skills.

Best Wishes,

Chris
1025

George S. Ledyard
06-22-2012, 12:34 PM
Matthew:

Maybe we should look at your question from the opposite side. What is the validity of assumed spirituality in absence of consensual reality? In many respects, deep spirituality is integrally linked to the depth of reality of one's life (my opinion at least).

Marc Abrams

I might disagree... although I know what you are saying. Much of what has been considered spirituality of great depth requires going into some alternate paradigm of perception of reality. This has often contradicted "consensual reality". This has always been a reality that contradicts the fundamental way ordinary folks perceive their reality. This is what has traditionally made it difficult to decide if someone's spirituality is genuine or he or she is a charlatan.

In Aikido it is equally difficult in that we are willing to accept that the art is a mix of the spiritual and the technical. The question is... does great technique yield deep spirituality? I think it is apparent to all of us that this is not a necessary result. Or does spiritual insight yield great technique. I think we can readily see the disconnect there.

If you look at someone like the Founder, he was rather other worldly in both respects. He had a very different world paradigm from that in which most folks function. He also had a technical level of ability that seemed other worldly to many. I do think that what makes Aikido truly Aikido is that if ones insight is valid, he or she can manifest that insight on the mat technically. That's the bottom line. Ones "other worldly" spirituality and technique needs to function with people whose reality is firmly anchored in the ordinary mundane world. O-Sensei could walk his talk. Most of the deshi could walk their talk on some level. Most of our contemporary Aikido folks cannot do so on the level that was once considered important.

donhebert
06-22-2012, 12:36 PM
Hi Everyone,

I apologize ahead of time for length of this.

I have appreciated reading everyone's posts on this topic and have found them to be thought provoking. I continue to be fascinated by the levels of interest that Aikidoists sustain in the spiritual aspect of training and how difficult it is to talk about it.

My own interest in Aikido was sparked when I learned that there was a martial art that was based on fostering harmony between people instead of conflict. This was influenced to some degree on fantasies generated by watching too many Kung Fu episodes as a kid, but even so I think my desire to face fear and open up to life was genuine.

This was the hook for me - to become strong enough to manage a martial situation and at the same time to have the choice of sparing my enemies and fostering the common good. This is, actually, the ancient and noble archetype of the warrior-king and many people admire it. My own personality is such that this promise of becoming an effectively better person through practice remains deeply appealing. Actively engaging in the well-being of others is my "default setting", so to speak. Like most default settings, this has some major downsides. I will spare everyone an exposition of my own personal material, but for those interested in an insight into the craziness of do-gooders I suggest looking up the "The Proverbs of Hell" from "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell" by William Blake.

In any case, my own ideas about Spirituality and Aikido have evolved over the years. To provide some context, let me just say that I have become moderately proficient in conventional Aikido practice. I have become increasingly interested in what is happening inside Aikido techniques and between me and my partners. I have also had a brief introduction to IP through Dan Harden and came way believing that this material was extremely important to Aikido. This direction in my physical practice has informed my spiritual experiences in important ways.

The essential point of a spiritual practice is that it changes one's consciousness. The daily circumstances of life can narrow our vision and disconnect us from what the soul needs in order to live out its potentialities. This is one reason why it is useful for dojos to be so beautiful in austere way. If Aikido was solely concerned with training fighting or self defense, one could practice in any gym. It might even be advantageous to train somewhere ugly. However, stepping onto the mat in a meticulous dojo that is beautifully designed invites a change of consciousness on the part of the practitioner. It draws one to a sense of nobility and larger purpose. This beginning of expanding one's mind is not fantasy but is a real and critical process that is at the core of human transformation.

Aikido training, when striving for a high level, can transcend the physical and gives us an amazing sense of enlarging our life. Its forms echo the forms of nature and the larger world and demonstrate how the human sense of beauty is connected to strength of form. To take a set of movements whose genesis is the lowest forms of human behavior and transmute it into something life affirming is valuable sort of alchemy. By working through the predicaments and trials of an effective Aikido practice, a person comes away stronger and with an expanded capacity to live in the world. Underlying all of this is a fundamental perception of the mystery that is at the root of existence and is the heart of all great religions. I think Aikido has the capacity to enable the practitioner to experience all of this physically in the body and work with spiritual themes in ways that are very integrating.

This approach to spirituality is not unique to Aikido. It can be found in traditional religions as well as art, poetry, storytelling, music and other great forms of human discipline and expression. This then brings me to the question of martial effectiveness. Each of the human disciplines has parameters that enables a person achieve the quality of experience that the path promises. For example, to be able to produce music that truly moves the human soul requires a huge amount of study, effort and practice. If a person ignores musical principles and just tries to "do their own thing", they often simply produce lousy music. It is clear to me that if I am not interested in really embodying the principles that Aikido is trying to get me to find, I will simply do lousy Aikido and in consequence also miss out on the authentic spiritual experience that would otherwise be available. The great thing about effective practice is that it exposes our shortcomings and provides feedback about our technique. A t the same time it exposes our spiritual condition, whether we are aware of it or not. This exposure is the key to growth.

Aikido in the world has become a large landscape. On one hand, I think it is entirely possible to have a deep spiritual training without focusing on becoming an effective fighter or physically more powerful than other people. For example, I am probably not alone in recognizing that physical prowess has been of no use to me at all in dealing with the most wrenching dilemmas in my life so far. These have required me to call upon some other aspects of my character. I might even go so far as to say that having an internal access to a sense of mother earth has, in some cases, been way more useful. However, it is extremely important not to be deluded. If one wants to practice a highly rarified form of Aikido where all of the movements are symbolic, then this is fine. However confusing this type of practice with one that is creates martial effectiveness is not a good thing. Delusion is not a sign of spiritual clarity.

Dan Harden likes to challenge Aikidoists to delve deeply and demand a higher level from their art. Even further, he is challenging us to put something back into the art that has been lost. I think he is doing a great service in doing so. At the same time, I don't think that martial effectiveness negates the spiritual evolution of someone who doesn't have this power. It's ironic to me how many of the highest level teachers have conducted lives that are a mess while there are many middling students that are true gems as human beings.

I would like to challenge Aikido to deeply question its spiritual dimensions in the same way that Dan challenges it physically. It is not easy to sustain focus on just one dimension of the art, say IP, and succeed. It is even more difficult to sustain effort in multiple dimensions at the same time. But this is what make a "way " hold up over time - that it has the capacity of being ever deeper and wider the more one goes into it. The fact that the art is difficult is part of the spiritual path and the reason that Aikido give us the warrior archetype to sustain us.

I stayed with Aikido practice all this time because it has proven to be deep enough and difficult enough to sustain my interest. Aikido has also given me rewarding network of friendships with people I would have been unlikely to meet any other way. We tend to be an odd cast of characters and I enjoy this tremendously.

Best regards,

Don Hebert

Conrad Gus
06-22-2012, 12:39 PM
Gary,

Do you limit Aikido just to a body art? I affirm the body art. I affirm all you say about it. I affirm Dan and his skills. I honor my teacher.

But what are you, as a teacher, offering Stephen who just had a stroke? He is in a wheel chair? So is Joe Arriola. How about a paraplegic. Can they study aikido? Is someone allowed to ask such a question under this thread or on this site?

Is your definition of Aikido reductionistic? I am asking this in sincerity.

Chris

My Sensei once accepted a student who was paralyzed and in a wheelchair, with only about 50% use of his arms. He was a great guy with a great attitude, and I know he appreciated and valued the chance to train what he could.

Chris Parkerson
06-22-2012, 01:48 PM
Don Herbert,

I loved your piece. It reminded me of when I first heard of Tai Chi Master Cheng Man-Ching being called the Master of the Five Excellences.

calligraphy
painting
poetry
Tai Chi
medicine.

Such a worthy goal.

regards,

Chris

tombuchanan
06-22-2012, 01:52 PM
John 3:6 "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

Can any physical discipline (flesh) really provide a gateway into the spiritual?

Also, notice the first Spirit is capitalized, implying -- can a spirit really enlighten itself or must it be "sparked" from an external, Spiritual source?

Are we sometimes confusing perception and consciousness with true awakening and enlightenment? Is there another way "in"?

Chris Parkerson
06-22-2012, 01:56 PM
John 3:6 "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

Can any physical discipline (flesh) really provide a gateway into the spiritual?

Also, notice the first Spirit is capitalized, implying -- can a spirit really enlighten itself or must it be "sparked" from an external, Spiritual source?

Are we sometimes confusing perception and consciousness with true awakening and enlightenment? Is there another way "in"?

I rather resonate with Rupert Sheldrake's "Morphic Resonance".
Where is memory stored? I think I know how to download memory with my brain. But where is it stored?????
Where does inspiration come from? Creativity?

Bewildered,

Chris

graham christian
06-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Nice posts. Nice to see most on topic.

I could never teach anyone if their only view was on physical application and effectiveness. That seems so selfish and insular to me and is like seeing a leaf and yet being blind to the tree.

Students must use the principles and improve their relationships with their family and friends as par for the course. They must learn to apply the principles to life and living itself.

I find it is very zen koan really. To really improve martially to such higher levels then the principles learned 'seem' un-martial. Herein lies the secret of all advanced, beyond the norm, martial arts.

Without knowing or reality of this then the logical mind could never see it for logically it doesn't make sense, or rather within the framework of usual thinking.

Me, I don't consider taking another apart or any such type of views on the mat or in life situations. I prefer the challenge of making that other comfortable even if he is trying to take me apart. This I see as Aikido and is a much greater challenge than merely damaging another and takes much, much more discipline.

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland
06-22-2012, 02:17 PM
The spirit comes into play when you don't see uke as the enemy but as another self. When you don't see that those that disagree with you as seperate or wrong. When you don't think that you are more or less human than others. Aikido shows us all that.

donhebert
06-22-2012, 02:27 PM
Graham,

Just to be clear - however much I admire the goal of being able to protect the attacker, I don't have the skill. If my life was in danger from a strong physical attack I would most likely have to become an animal to survive - so much for my training. During practice I don't think much about this. I spend a lot of my time in the feedback loop - discovering that something I am doing doesn't work and then trying to fix it. I am then often amazed at the counter-intuitve natue of the solution.

Best regards,

Don

mathewjgano
06-22-2012, 02:38 PM
Matthew:

Maybe we should look at your question from the opposite side. What is the validity of assumed spirituality in absence of consensual reality? In many respects, deep spirituality is integrally linked to the depth of reality of one's life (my opinion at least).

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,
I think that's a very fair question and one that fits with my own sense of spirituality. Despite being rather devoutly anti-organized religion, I've come to love Jinja Shinto (as I loosely understand it). Largely becaus of its emphasis on the natural world; on understanding the world around and within us through observation and intuition.
The tough thing for me in conversations about spirituality is that it seems like anything goes...in other words, it regularly doesn't seem to seek consensus from the physical reality we seem to live in...per my perception of it, at any rate. I'm an agnostic precisely because I seek that agreement from my 5 (or 6?) senses.
I don't think others have to do this...and more to the point I don't think it's possible to judge others' perceptions in this regard. Nao Deguchi sounds like a lot of people I've seen on the streets of Seattle and Everett, never mind the even more interesting world the internet gives us access to. And yet, here's a person who sparked a tremendous spiritual influence on a relatively large number of people. I think a lot of people would write her off as a kook and yet because she lived in the untouchable past, she's given more authority. I apply this example to the Abrahamic religions as well. Prophets tend to be...well..."interesting," to say the least, but because I think of spirituality as the relationship between individuals and the "meta," I cannot judge them very far. Where I start to judge is where it impacts others; where it seeks to interject between the relationship of other's private relationships with that "meta." Even in that case though, I feel I have to respect the fact that people are autonomous individuals who will do what they want anyway. All I can do where I think I see a problem is offer the most reasonable or otherwise virtuous observations I can muster. I used to talk to some very frightening groups of people (Joy of Satan, anyone?) trying to critically evaluate and demonstrate holes in their attempted logic, but it rarely worked. That it didn't seem to work only made me try harder and I think if anything I only served to further entrench them in their views. I think it was the perceived oppositional nature of my language. This is an extreme example, but I think the principle holds true in more benign cases too.
That all said, despite my strong affinity for scientific methods, I'm very proud of my Celtic and Native American heritage and often look to their surviving concepts for an understanding of the Universe. It's just another lense I use for trying to make sense of something vastly too...er...vast, for me to comprehend. Mythology and the like doesn't have to be correct in order to serve a valid purpose. If someone wants to literally believe a Crow swallowed the sun I don't think it's necessarily invalid even though I think that's impossible in the conventional sense.
...A bit of a ramble, sorry, but I hope that answers your question.
Take care,
Matt

Chris Parkerson
06-22-2012, 02:59 PM
Graham,

Just to be clear - however much I admire the goal of being able to protect the attacker, I don't have the skill. If my life was in danger from a strong physical attack I would most likely have to become an animal to survive - so much for my training. During practice I don't think much about this. I spend a lot of my time in the feedback loop - discovering that something I am doing doesn't work and then trying to fix it. I am then often amazed at the counter-intuitve natue of the solution.

Best regards,

Don

Don,

In my experience, there is nothing wrong with becoming animal. Most hunter animals do not kill just to kill. They kill to eat and to survive. They fight, not to win, but to survive. And in the act, they will look into each other's eye as one gives up the ghost.

As a human animal, I choose to do one more thing. As we kill for food (most of us citified martial artists are very divorced from this practice), I try to honor the ritual of becoming a protector of the rest of the animal kingdom from which my food source came.

This, too, seems to be a major disconnect in modern Budo. Few of us question our food source, how it is raised, brought to market, and placed on our tables. We have no idea if the salmon will be running in 10 years or if the tuna will be radio active and die as a species.

And I suspect we will pay a very big price for maintaining such a disconnect. Soon, we will see horrific violence in our cities. Food wars, water wars, and terrirotial wars will be in our neighborhoods.

And I beleve only great courage, creativity and compassion will help us navigate our way out of it.

Fighting each other will only add fuel to the fire.

Waging Peace,

Chris

graham christian
06-22-2012, 03:00 PM
Graham,

Just to be clear - however much I admire the goal of being able to protect the attacker, I don't have the skill. If my life was in danger from a strong physical attack I would most likely have to become an animal to survive - so much for my training. During practice I don't think much about this. I spend a lot of my time in the feedback loop - discovering that something I am doing doesn't work and then trying to fix it. I am then often amazed at the counter-intuitve natue of the solution.

Best regards,

Don

Don.
Such an admirable goal I teach is never to be let go of in the practice on the mat of Aikido. Of course most people believe they don't have the skill to or even that it's possible but I can only say to you that it is not only an admirable goal but can be standard procedure through all levels.

When someone finds what they are doing doesn't work I can usually remind them of why and 100% of the time it is because they have failed to apply one of the principles of that 'admirable goal'.

This is my experience.

Although people read spiritual and equate it with various things I give spiritual principles to apply directly. Whenever someone is stuck I remind them. They may go into all kinds of reasons and feedback and loops and even internal or whatever but I point them back once again to the basic given principles and say there is no other reason.

It's a discipline, it's zen like, it's no detours or other reasons. It's not working because you are not applying the said principle and that's all. Thus the person has no escape, they carry on until they do apply it.

The problem is most are not taught such principles as a discipline and therefor are completely unaware of their effectiveness.

Spiritual principles given as a rule, a law, a must follow, take you to places your mind doesn't want to go to yet when you do apply them you learn something new and enlightening let alone effective.

Then it starts making sense.

Peace.G.

donhebert
06-22-2012, 03:26 PM
Graham,

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

For me, the Aikido invites me into a more vivid experience of being alive and the opportunity to confront myself. However, the pratice itself is firmly rooted in the mundane. I can't move my partner, I just got hit, my structure just collapsed. These "problems" are the places where I actually make any progress. The rest is comfort zone.

Another example: It is easy for me to care for partner's well being when training. They are my friends, most of them are nice. I am a nice guy. What a recipe for collusion! I am better off with partners who give me a hard time.

Training doesn't have to be grim but I better be working hard or I will never advance. The clearer I become about what doesn't work for me personally the more interested I become in things like IP that can really inform the basis for effective movement in Aikido without having to depart from its goals or forms.

Such skills are hard to acheive (and ultimately may require more dedication than I am able to invest). Ikeda Sensei has shown me personally how to do certain things multiple times and I still can't do them well (yet),

Best regards,

Don

graham christian
06-22-2012, 03:38 PM
Don,

In my experience, there is nothing wrong with becoming animal. Most hunter animals do not kill just to kill. They kill to eat and to survive. They fight, not to win, but to survive. And in the act, they will look into each other's eye as one gives up the ghost.

As a human animal, I choose to do one more thing. As we kill for food (most of us citified martial artists are very divorced from this practice), I try to honor the ritual of becoming a protector of the rest of the animal kingdom from which my food source came.

This, too, seems to be a major disconnect in modern Budo. Few of us question our food source, how it is raised, brought to market, and placed on our tables. We have no idea if the salmon will be running in 10 years or if the tuna will be radio active and die as a species.

And I suspect we will pay a very big price for maintaining such a disconnect. Soon, we will see horrific violence in our cities. Food wars, water wars, and terrirotial wars will be in our neighborhoods.

And I beleve only great courage, creativity and compassion will help us navigate our way out of it.

Fighting each other will only add fuel to the fire.

Waging Peace,

Chris

Chris, I agree that given choice most animals wouldn't even kill.

I assume you must be versed in Buddhism and a part of Buddhism I haven't seen touched on in these threads is that of past lives, previous existences. A fundamental tenet of Buddhism. The whole karmic cycle of being trapped in this recycled living. As O'Sensei was also well versed in Buddhism I find this surprising.

The reason I say this is that firstly it points to the spiritual continuous you rather than the body and secondly that the whole theory of such cycles is to do with acting against your own true nature, doing harmful things etc. No wonder the way out is love and true 'budo' is love.

Finally I'll leave you with this question: Throughout time immemorial through all your past lives and getting less and less aware what happened to your power? Why did it get less?

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-22-2012, 03:53 PM
Graham,

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

For me, the Aikido invites me into a more vivid experience of being alive and the opportunity to confront myself. However, the pratice itself is firmly rooted in the mundane. I can't move my partner, I just got hit, my structure just collapsed. These "problems" are the places where I actually make any progress. The rest is comfort zone.

Another example: It is easy for me to care for partner's well being when training. They are my friends, most of them are nice. I am a nice guy. What a recipe for collusion! I am better off with partners who give me a hard time.

Training doesn't have to be grim but I better be working hard or I will never advance. The clearer I become about what doesn't work for me personally the more interested I become in things like IP that can really inform the basis for effective movement in Aikido without having to depart from its goals or forms.

Such skills are hard to acheive (and ultimately may require more dedication than I am able to invest). Ikeda Sensei has shown me personally how to do certain things multiple times and I still can't do them well (yet),

Best regards,

Don

Hi Don.
For me too it leads to the same, more vivid, more alive, more confronting of self.

Student: "I can't move my partner"

Me: "Well we know that's not true, you're not moving him, that's true."

Student: "Thus I got hit and structure collapsed and, and, and......"

Me: "Yes, it appears that way but following that logic is not Aikido."

Student: "Then how do I move him?"

Me: "First by having no intention or desire to move him. Your only lessen is how to harmonize with him and he will move himself. This is Aikido."

So Don, this is how I talk and do. This doesn't mean your way is 'wrong' just explains mine.

Keep going.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-22-2012, 03:58 PM
Well, even in Buddhism, they allow for the option of calling into question all "beliefs" including their own. But I do really love the song by the Johnny Cash called Highwayman.

I fly a starship across the Universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain
And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..

If such is true, I guess I have that covered. I committed myself as a baby Bodhisatva.

Coming back as less.....
We shall see.
One of my Taiist training partners thinks he's going to become an immortal. He's well on the way. He got so strong internally, his Silat buddies cannot train with him anymore. His licks and strikes are way to strong.

Be well,
Chris

graham christian
06-22-2012, 04:22 PM
Well, even in Buddhism, they allow for the option of calling into question all "beliefs" including their own. But I do really love the song by the Johnny Cash called Highwayman.

I fly a starship across the Universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain
And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..

If such is true, I guess I have that covered. I committed myself as a baby Bodhisatva.

Coming back as less.....
We shall see.
One of my Taiist training partners thinks he's going to become an immortal. He's well on the way. He got so strong internally, his Silat buddies cannot train with him anymore. His licks and strikes are way to strong.

Be well,
Chris

Ha, ha. Shame about your friend though. You can't be anything but immortal. Licks and strikes and buddies not being able to train with him anymore sounds to me like he's missed the point.

Peace.G.

Conrad Gus
06-22-2012, 05:13 PM
I just want to say thanks for an interesting thread. It is so interesting to read about your different (and deep) approaches to spirituality and aikido.

Peace,

Conrad

graham christian
06-22-2012, 05:58 PM
I just want to say thanks for an interesting thread. It is so interesting to read about your different (and deep) approaches to spirituality and aikido.

Peace,

Conrad

Thanks Conrad.
I'm meeting up with some old timers tomorrow. Should be interesting.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-22-2012, 06:45 PM
The spirit comes into play when you don't see uke as the enemy but as another self. When you don't see that those that disagree with you as seperate or wrong. When you don't think that you are more or less human than others. Aikido shows us all that.

But that would mean spirit is a thing of oneness, of unity, of harmony, of universal love, of co-existence, of blending, of Ki, of granting others the right to be, of.......

Surely not;)

Peace.G.

stan baker
06-23-2012, 08:53 PM
your not going to have the ability to harmonize with someone like Dan, aikido or martially
end of story. If your smart you will realize that your still in kindergarden
which is not a bad thing, most people are not smart, zen is about pulling the
rug out from under you.

stan

Carsten M÷llering
06-24-2012, 05:30 AM
Aikido shows us all that.?
How does it show that?

Thoughts about enemies or not, being different person, and so on may root in a certain worldview. But is there one certain worldview connected unseperable to aikid˘?
And if so: Why isnt't it tought in the d˘j˘?
And how come that people with completely different worldviews can practice together?
Af if there is taught a certain worldview in the d˘j˘ where does it stemm from? The students of Ueshiba told that he didn't teach a certain religion (not even ˘moto kyo), philosophy or spiritulity to be necessary to learn aikid˘. So from where and when does this come in if someone teaches it on the mat?

I appreciate your view of aikid˘, and I try to accept the view of Graham. If it works for you, this is fine with me. I think this is most important in life that people find their own way, a way the can follow and lead a "good" life.
But looking at my experiences on and off the mat and refering to my reading not only about aikid˘, for me it is very clear, that this is your view of aikid˘ and the world. But that it is not universal, absolute. As no truth is. We always see only our section of the world. We don't see the word "as it is".

Can any physical discipline (flesh) really provide a gateway into the spiritual?Obviously yes. Maybe not if only refering to a christian worldview. In a daoist understanding the body clearly is kind of vehicle and provides a gateway into the spiritual.

To me aikid˘ means using the body, kneading the body, practicing with the body, experiencing changes of the body, development ...
And experiencing how all this affects my "spiritual" Dimension in some way.

Tom Verhoeven
06-24-2012, 06:53 AM
The spirit comes into play when you don't see uke as the enemy but as another self. When you don't see that those that disagree with you as seperate or wrong. When you don't think that you are more or less human than others. Aikido shows us all that.

Very well formulated. It is a view that is shared by Buddhism and Shinto / Taoisme. And very much part of Aikido. If we come on the tatami with the notion that we are in any way more then the others then Aikido will be a humbling experience.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-24-2012, 07:28 AM
?
How does it show that?

Thoughts about enemies or not, being different person, and so on may root in a certain worldview. But is there one certain worldview connected unseperable to aikid˘?
And if so: Why isnt't it tought in the d˘j˘?
And how come that people with completely different worldviews can practice together?
Af if there is taught a certain worldview in the d˘j˘ where does it stemm from? The students of Ueshiba told that he didn't teach a certain religion (not even ˘moto kyo), philosophy or spiritulity to be necessary to learn aikid˘. So from where and when does this come in if someone teaches it on the mat?

I appreciate your view of aikid˘, and I try to accept the view of Graham. If it works for you, this is fine with me. I think this is most important in life that people find their own way, a way the can follow and lead a "good" life.
But looking at my experiences on and off the mat and refering to my reading not only about aikid˘, for me it is very clear, that this is your view of aikid˘ and the world. But that it is not universal, absolute. As no truth is. We always see only our section of the world. We don't see the word "as it is".

Obviously yes. Maybe not if only refering to a christian worldview. In a daoist understanding the body clearly is kind of vehicle and provides a gateway into the spiritual.

To me aikid˘ means using the body, kneading the body, practicing with the body, experiencing changes of the body, development ...
And experiencing how all this affects my "spiritual" Dimension in some way.

O Sensei did not teach religion as such. As far as I know I have never heard that O Sensei tried to convince anyone to become a member of Oomoto kyo.
Most of his students were raised in a Japanese setting, which included Shinto. In general there is much less conversion going on there then in for instance Christianity. Neither is there a problem with being a Shinto believer and a Buddhist. It is sort of all including and there is no need to switch to a particular group, unless one feels a personal need to do so.
As for non-Japanese; they can not become members of the Oomoto kyo. Most Shinto kannushi see Shinto as an indigenous religion. They will most of the time urge you to pursue your own indigenous religion. This idea was in a similar way also expressed in macrobiotics; only eat what in your own region can be grown.
O Sensei must have just assumed that his students were aware of there own indigenous believes.

Tom

RonRagusa
06-24-2012, 08:34 AM
Af if there is taught a certain worldview in the d˘j˘ where does it stemm from? The students of Ueshiba told that he didn't teach a certain religion (not even ˘moto kyo), philosophy or spiritulity to be necessary to learn aikid˘. So from where and when does this come in if someone teaches it on the mat?

But you see, it isn't taught on the mat, not our mat anyway. Using your terminology, this worldview is awakened in the student as a result of training and introspective reflection; or it isn't. And whether it is or isn't does not matter because each student takes something individually unique from the experience of training.

We don't see the word "as it is".

"As it is"? Is there, then, an objective reality that can be seen and that everyone can agree on? Does your Aikido training open the door to this objective reality?

To me aikid˘ means using the body, kneading the body, practicing with the body, experiencing changes of the body, development ...
And experiencing how all this affects my "spiritual" Dimension in some way.

Nicely put.

Ron

Carsten M÷llering
06-24-2012, 08:50 AM
... is awakened in the student as a result of training and introspective reflection; ...
Thank you!
This I can understand very well.

"As it is"? Is there, then, an objective reality that can be seen and that everyone can agree on?
Sorry, I wanted to express that there is no such thing. And for that everybody can only see "his" or "her" reality. And everybody "shapes" the world in his/her own way.
"Truth" the ist something that evades when two persons comunicate their "worldviews" and put them together.

graham christian
06-24-2012, 09:25 AM
your not going to have the ability to harmonize with someone like Dan, aikido or martially
end of story. If your smart you will realize that your still in kindergarden
which is not a bad thing, most people are not smart, zen is about pulling the
rug out from under you.

stan

Ha, ha. From one perspective I couldn't agree more.;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-24-2012, 09:33 AM
Body to mind to spirit, spirit to mind to body, mind to body to spirit. You can do drills on each. When they become one we're talking business.

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland
06-24-2012, 09:40 AM
You are right, Carsten. I could have said that aikido has let me discover these things. Thanks for pointing that out.

Mary Eastland
06-24-2012, 09:46 AM
your not going to have the ability to harmonize with someone like Dan, aikido or martially
end of story. If your smart you will realize that your still in kindergarden
which is not a bad thing, most people are not smart, zen is about pulling the
rug out from under you.

stan

Tarot? I don't know what smart has to do with Aikido. I don't think this thread has anything to do with the person of whom you speak.

Your means that which you own...I think you might mean you're. Since we are talking about smart.

donhebert
06-24-2012, 10:52 AM
The spirit comes into play when you don't see uke as the enemy but as another self. When you don't see that those that disagree with you as seperate or wrong. When you don't think that you are more or less human than others. Aikido shows us all that.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity has a great spiritual tradition and is often the basis for a deep unrequited longing. But how is it that "Aikido shows that"? If it could consistently, then wow!

What is unique about Aikido that brings us to spiritual experiences? For example, I have often heard an observer unfamiliar with Aikido state that it doesn't look like it could do much martially. Observations like this and our own experience as practitioners has led to vast amounts of written angst on this forum. I am afraid that the same may be true for Aikido spirituality. An objective observer might just shrug their shoulders.

Do Aikidoists in general have a an aspect of their practice that is consciously spiritual? How is this different from, let's say Karate, or even some non-martial activity that requires practice and skill? Am I just projecting my own spiritual ideas on my practice or is there an approach that has some required elements in order to be considered Aikido? Is there a connection between martial prowess and sprituality?

What are Aikidoists trying to do when they practice?

Best regards,

Don Hebert

Chris Li
06-24-2012, 11:39 AM
As for non-Japanese; they can not become members of the Oomoto kyo. Most Shinto kannushi see Shinto as an indigenous religion. They will most of the time urge you to pursue your own indigenous religion. This idea was in a similar way also expressed in macrobiotics; only eat what in your own region can be grown.
O Sensei must have just assumed that his students were aware of there own indigenous believes.

Tom

Acrtually, that's not quite right, there are non-Japanese members, although they don't really actively encourage it anymore. There was more outreach in the past - an office in Paris before the war, for example. I think that it's clear that Onisaburo Deguchi believed that he was destined for a role on the international level.

Best,

Chris

DH
06-24-2012, 11:39 AM
Very well formulated. It is a view that is shared by Buddhism and Shinto / Taoisme. And very much part of Aikido. If we come on the tatami with the notion that we are in any way more then the others then Aikido will be a humbling experience.

Tom
Those are religions and belief systems. Ueshiba stated flatly that aikido was not a religion it was a budo.
Budo must be effective. Ueshiba's budo was, for the most part, effective. I have no issue with the people who claim a spiritual foundation for their practice-I usually just ignore them until I see their claims of being effective.Sadly, when challenged, ulike those they follow, no one I have ever known stepped up to examination. They typically hide from examination of their claims at effective use, and remove themselves with every excuse imaginable from being put to the test. The most common being we are not competitive, or concerned with testing...while they don budo clothing, swing weapons, strike at each other and throw people.
The real thrust of most religions is challenge and living effective lives in an honest self examining way. I have rarely, well...actually NEVER...have seen a level of honesty and self-examination as a budo by those who claim the spiritual side of budo.

Spiritual leaders that people follow put themselves to the test.
Budo leaders put themselves to the test
Why is it that these spiritual/ budo people hide from being tested by doubters? There is a reason that the spiritual side of the art will forever by a side issue, beyond all rhetoric it can't deliver an effective budo.

Dan

DH
06-24-2012, 11:49 AM
The experience of duality dissolving into unity has a great spiritual tradition and is often the basis for a deep unrequited longing. But how is it that "Aikido shows that"? If it could consistently, then wow!

What is unique about Aikido that brings us to spiritual experiences? For example, I have often heard an observer unfamiliar with Aikido state that it doesn't look like it could do much martially. Observations like this and our own experience as practitioners has led to vast amounts of written angst on this forum. I am afraid that the same may be true for Aikido spirituality. An objective observer might just shrug their shoulders.

Do Aikidoists in general have a an aspect of their practice that is consciously spiritual? How is this different from, let's say Karate, or even some non-martial activity that requires practice and skill? Am I just projecting my own spiritual ideas on my practice or is there an approach that has some required elements in order to be considered Aikido? Is there a connection between martial prowess and sprituality?

What are Aikidoists trying to do when they practice?

Best regards,

Don Hebert
Those are good points Don
Most notable is that duality dissolving into unity is a profound budo principle that starts in yourself and then is epressed externally in an extremely powerful form. The reason for the angst is simple; so many discussing it have no clue as to what it means, are nothing extraordinary and will impress no one with any real skill.
The reason for the angst is very simple; they cannot deliver and they know it or those they touch know it. For those who really know what these things were about, there is no angst, and up against the senior teachers of budo...well...there really is no doubt either. ;)

If people want a cooperative ride and "joining" why not take off the budo clothing, stop faking hitting each other and falling down, put down the weapons and put on yoga clothes and go play. Leave Budo to those involved with Budo.
I claim a spiritual side to my practice. It is expressed in an effective way to live my life and influence, family, co workers, friends, and community and it creates a dramatically effective budo. All of which are put to the test regularly.
Dan

donhebert
06-24-2012, 12:39 PM
Hi Dan,

Your comment on non-duality makes sense to me only if I enlarge it to encompass a wide range of external expressions. In other words, it could inspire an Aiki response in a martial situation if the person had the skill or it might manifest in some other way entirely. In any case it should have a quality of impeccability. For example it might move the person to offer themselves as a sacrifice.

Isnĺt it possible that a person who is very able to an effective martial response is simply able to be a skilled brute with a spiritual poverty? One doesnĺt seem to guarantee the other.

I have known extremely effective warriors whose skills employed in war in very nasty ways. They remain quite scary as individuals and I admire their apparent lack of fear. But they also suffer tremendously and seem damaged beyond cure.

On the other hand, some of the very best people I have known were not versed in Budo. They have been tested by life and have responded time and again with heart and incredible integrity. They werenĺt interested in impressing anybody.

I wonder if the spiritual side of your art if something you brought to it and in doing so found a great compatibility that strengthened both. Or did the study of budo draw you into the spiritual side?

Thanks for being provocative.

Don Hebert

DH
06-24-2012, 01:42 PM
Hi Dan,

Your comment on non-duality makes sense to me only if I enlarge it to encompass a wide range of external expressions. In other words, it could inspire an Aiki response in a martial situation if the person had the skill or it might manifest in some other way entirely. In any case it should have a quality of impeccability. For example it might move the person to offer themselves as a sacrifice.

Isn't it possible that a person who is very able to an effective martial response is simply able to be a skilled brute with a spiritual poverty? One doesn't seem to guarantee the other.

I have known extremely effective warriors whose skills employed in war in very nasty ways. They remain quite scary as individuals and I admire their apparent lack of fear. But they also suffer tremendously and seem damaged beyond cure.

On the other hand, some of the very best people I have known were not versed in Budo. They have been tested by life and have responded time and again with heart and incredible integrity. They weren't interested in impressing anybody.

I wonder if the spiritual side of your art if something you brought to it and in doing so found a great compatibility that strengthened both. Or did the study of budo draw you into the spiritual side?

Thanks for being provocative.

Don Hebert
Hi Don
I essentially agree with the points above. I am on the run so I will have to post tonight. I have some answers as to how I see them meshing and influencing each other.
Dan

mathewjgano
06-24-2012, 01:47 PM
I claim a spiritual side to my practice. It is expressed in an effective way to live my life and influence, family, co workers, friends, and community and it creates a dramatically effective budo. All of which are put to the test regularly.
Dan

Hey Dan,
Was this your point to post #97?

NEVER...have seen a level of honesty and self-examination as a budo by those who claim the spiritual side of budo.
Would you be willing to describe how I have been falling short, or seem to be, in this regard? I would sincerely appreciate your opinion and will take absolutely no offense.
Sincerely,
Matt

Tom Verhoeven
06-24-2012, 01:58 PM
Acrtually, that's not quite right, there are non-Japanese members, although they don't really actively encourage it anymore. There was more outreach in the past - an office in Paris before the war, for example. I think that it's clear that Onisaburo Deguchi believed that he was destined for a role on the international level.

Best,

Chris
Altogether you have seemed to miss my point. If we were to wonder why O Sensei did not encourage his non-Japanese students to become part of his religion, then the answer lies partly in the fact that the Oomoto kyo did not ecourage this at the time. Even if they may have made exceptions to that rule, it does not change that fact. The fact that Oomoto kyo had been active on reaching out on a bigger scale (Paris, Brasil) around 1925 is not relevant. O Sensei did not have foreign students at that time.

Tom

graham christian
06-24-2012, 05:48 PM
The experience of duality dissolving into unity has a great spiritual tradition and is often the basis for a deep unrequited longing. But how is it that "Aikido shows that"? If it could consistently, then wow!

What is unique about Aikido that brings us to spiritual experiences? For example, I have often heard an observer unfamiliar with Aikido state that it doesn't look like it could do much martially. Observations like this and our own experience as practitioners has led to vast amounts of written angst on this forum. I am afraid that the same may be true for Aikido spirituality. An objective observer might just shrug their shoulders.

Do Aikidoists in general have a an aspect of their practice that is consciously spiritual? How is this different from, let's say Karate, or even some non-martial activity that requires practice and skill? Am I just projecting my own spiritual ideas on my practice or is there an approach that has some required elements in order to be considered Aikido? Is there a connection between martial prowess and sprituality?

What are Aikidoists trying to do when they practice?

Best regards,

Don Hebert

Hi Don.
I would like to make comment here.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity: Isn't that the meaning of harmony? Part of the word Aikido. So when you see some Ki Aikido for instance you see Aikido expressing that no?

Now, many may see it and not get it and not see how it can be martial but there again many see it and see how it can. I often wonder and indeed ask if those who go against it can do it. 99% of the time they cannot. It's a skill which takes a lot of developing.

So even if someone is just learning to go along with then they are learning some valuable lessons in that alone for that in itself takes concentration and mental discipline. They at least are getting a glimpse of what it is like to harmonize so I would say it's essential for only then can they see what they are aiming for, to be able to do in more and more difficult situations. Keep going on that path and you would end up harmonizing with the most dangerous and fierce situations too. This is one way of looking at Aikido and I meet many inside and outside of Aikido who understand this. They also understand how that would take quite a time and lots of discipline.

Some Aikidoka have a consciously spiritual aspect in their Aikido but generally I have found this is not the case.

I have met some from other arts including Karate who are usually people who have been doing them for many years but then they start seeing the spiritual basis of even those arts. They too then bump into telling others yet not being understood by many for they can't help to see their art from a new, different perspective. I read on here recently how surfing can be a spiritual path leading to satori even.

So in my experience there are some approaches that have the required elements to be called Aikido.

Ahh, the question. Connection between martial prowess and spirituality? To me the answer is obviously so. The reality of this can only be gotten by doing it in such a way and demonstrating to yourself.

I find Aikido as an art is so all embrasive that you will find people doing it for all kinds of reasons and thus trying to do all kinds of things in their practice. Why not indeed? It has been so since time immemorial in all martial arts. That's reality and a reality that is missed by those who shout it must be for 'blah'.

Peace.G.

Chris Li
06-24-2012, 05:54 PM
Altogether you have seemed to miss my point. If we were to wonder why O Sensei did not encourage his non-Japanese students to become part of his religion, then the answer lies partly in the fact that the Oomoto kyo did not ecourage this at the time. Even if they may have made exceptions to that rule, it does not change that fact. The fact that Oomoto kyo had been active on reaching out on a bigger scale (Paris, Brasil) around 1925 is not relevant. O Sensei did not have foreign students at that time.

Tom

I wasn't talking about Ueshiba at all, just making a point about Omoto-kyo. It's not so much that they discourage it as much as they don't make efforts to evangelize, and only a small portion of the materials are available outside of Japanese or Esperanto. Anyway - foreign members were and are permitted in Omoto-kyo.

OTOH, it wasn't just non-Japanese students - he didn't encourage Japanese students to join his religion either.

Best,

Chris

stan baker
06-24-2012, 06:35 PM
Hi Mary
what kind of developement did the founder have in his body
knowing about this is the smart I am talking about.

stan

graham christian
06-24-2012, 06:56 PM
There are of course physical locations in the body which are well known as spiritual 'gateways'. These are called chakras.

Peace.G.

DH
06-24-2012, 07:22 PM
There are of course physical locations in the body which are well known as spiritual 'gateways'. These are called chakras.

Peace.G.
Other than an unprovable belief, where can I find anyone capable of demonstrating unusual power and impressive budo skills using these gateways?
Who?
Where?
Where can you find people capable of expressing unusual power and impressive budo skills using the exact same models Ueshiba is now being correctly translated and quoted for?
Many places.
Many people.

Spiritual Aikido can be reduced to meaninglessness as budo as much as it can be discussed as an elevation of spirit.
OTOH, Spiritual Aikido can be expressed as a powerful vehicle ...of...budo as well as an elevation of spirit.
Who is doing the later?
No one can simply B.S. their way into being one of them...except on the internet. In person it has to be measured and it has to matter as a tested budo.
Dan

graham christian
06-24-2012, 07:35 PM
Other than an unprovable belief, where can I find anyone capable of demonstrating unusual power and impressive budo skills using these gateways?
Who?
Where?
Where can you find people capable of expressing unusual power and impressive budo skills using the exact same models Ueshiba is now being correctly translated and quoted for?
Many places.
Many people.

Spiritual Aikido can be reduced to meaninglessness as budo as much as it can be discussed as an elevation of spirit.
OTOH, Spiritual Aikido can be expressed as a powerful vehicle ...of...budo as well as an elevation of spirit.
Who is doing the later?
No one can simply B.S. their way into being one of them...except on the internet. In person it has to be measured and it has to matter as a tested budo.
Dan

Why do you ask? In history there have been some or many and today there or some or many. What's your point?

Why tell me what I know?

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland
06-24-2012, 07:42 PM
Of course, I could harmonize with anyone who came onto the mat to practice aikido.

DH
06-24-2012, 07:46 PM
Why do you ask? In history there have been some or many and today there or some or many. What's your point?
Peace.G.
There are lots people believing lots of things. Good for them.
I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.
Anyone can "believe" anything they want, fine by me.....right up to them landing on their heads.
For anything meaningful in doingBudo this is a dead end.
Dan

Mary Eastland
06-24-2012, 07:46 PM
Hi Mary
what kind of developement did the founder have in his body
knowing about this is the smart I am talking about.

stan
Never met the man, but I bet he had correct feeling.

donhebert
06-24-2012, 07:56 PM
Hi Don.
I would like to make comment here.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity: Isn't that the meaning of harmony? Part of the word Aikido. So when you see some Ki Aikido for instance you see Aikido expressing that no?

Now, many may see it and not get it and not see how it can be martial but there again many see it and see how it can. I often wonder and indeed ask if those who go against it can do it. 99% of the time they cannot. It's a skill which takes a lot of developing.

So even if someone is just learning to go along with then they are learning some valuable lessons in that alone for that in itself takes concentration and mental discipline. They at least are getting a glimpse of what it is like to harmonize so I would say it's essential for only then can they see what they are aiming for, to be able to do in more and more difficult situations. Keep going on that path and you would end up harmonizing with the most dangerous and fierce situations too. This is one way of looking at Aikido and I meet many inside and outside of Aikido who understand this. They also understand how that would take quite a time and lots of discipline.

Some Aikidoka have a consciously spiritual aspect in their Aikido but generally I have found this is not the case.

I have met some from other arts including Karate who are usually people who have been doing them for many years but then they start seeing the spiritual basis of even those arts. They too then bump into telling others yet not being understood by many for they can't help to see their art from a new, different perspective. I read on here recently how surfing can be a spiritual path leading to satori even.

So in my experience there are some approaches that have the required elements to be called Aikido.

Ahh, the question. Connection between martial prowess and spirituality? To me the answer is obviously so. The reality of this can only be gotten by doing it in such a way and demonstrating to yourself.

I find Aikido as an art is so all embrasive that you will find people doing it for all kinds of reasons and thus trying to do all kinds of things in their practice. Why not indeed? It has been so since time immemorial in all martial arts. That's reality and a reality that is missed by those who shout it must be for 'blah'.

Peace.G.

Sorry, but I can't seem to be able to connect your reply to my questions - although I appreciate the attempt. I'm sure it's me but I am left with the same feeling I got when I read an old definition of Transcendentalism as expressed by a New York lawyer:

"Transcendentalism is two holes in a sand-bank: a storm washes away the sand-bank without disturbing the holes."

Best regards,

Don

graham christian
06-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Sorry, but I can't seem to be able to connect your reply to my questions - although I appreciate the attempt. I'm sure it's me but I am left with the same feeling I got when I read an old definition of Transcendentalism as expressed by a New York lawyer:

"Transcendentalism is two holes in a sand-bank: a storm washes away the sand-bank without disturbing the holes."

Best regards,

Don

That'll do nicely so why not stick to that as a zen koan? It would fit nicely as an Aikido one too.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-24-2012, 08:08 PM
There are lots people believing lots of things. Good for them.
I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.
Anyone can "believe" anything they want, fine by me.....right up to them landing on their heads.
For anything meaningful in doingBudo this is a dead end.
Dan

Very interesting Dan. If such people don't exist in Budo then you must be the only one. Fascinating.

Peace.G.

DH
06-24-2012, 08:13 PM
Very interesting Dan. If such people don't exist in Budo then you must be the only one. Fascinating.

Peace.G.
That is illogical. Is there something more meaningful you wish to say? You still haven't followed my own questions-which were simple.
Dan

graham christian
06-24-2012, 08:16 PM
That is illogical. Is there something more meaningful you wish to say? You still haven't followed my own questions-which were simple.
Dan

You said this: I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.

Therefor if they don't exist and you say you do teach it then you are the only one then no? Your logic not mine.

Peace.G..

graham christian
06-24-2012, 08:20 PM
That is illogical. Is there something more meaningful you wish to say? You still haven't followed my own questions-which were simple.
Dan

I responded to your questions by asking why you ask.

Peace.G.

DH
06-24-2012, 09:47 PM
You said this: I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.

Therefor if they don't exist and you say you do teach it then you are the only one then no? Your logic not mine.

Peace.G..
Instead of arguing I will repeat

Graham Christian wrote:
There are of course physical locations in the body which are well known as spiritual 'gateways'. These are called chakras.
Peace.G.
I wrote:
Other than an unprovable belief, where can I find anyone capable of demonstrating unusual power and impressive budo skills using these gateways?
Who?
Where?
Where can you find people capable of expressing unusual power and impressive budo skills using the exact same models Ueshiba is now being correctly translated and quoted for?
Many places.
Many people.
I think I was clear
Dan

DH
06-24-2012, 09:54 PM
Of course, I could harmonize with anyone who came onto the mat to practice aikido.
No...you can't.
Why? For the simple reason...as has been pointed out here...that aikido is not subject to your definitions or approval of what it means. I think you are trying to say you could harmonize with anyone willing to cooperate with you under your terms of what Aikido is....

Otherwise by definition...you are saying that everyone and anyone (unless you just meant you personally) can handle an honest committed attack by every highly trained aikido-ka.

I contend that there are thousands of people....tens of thousands, that many aikido-ka simply could never handle were they to do their aikido with them. There would be no chance to blend or do much of anything but get stuffed.
This happened in the past in Aikido with various men.... no one could throw Tohei. No one could throw Ueshiba, or Shioda...were they not doing aikido?

Can someone's aiki...do, be so good that they can no longer be moved by most aikido-ka..even without them trying to do anything?
Are there people so good in aiki that just about any Japanese Shihan in Aikido or Daito ryu would be stopped cold?
Who then is not "doing Aikido?"
As opposed to just not doing Aikido "good enough?"
Everyone doesn't always get an "A"
Sometimes you are tested in life...and measured.
Dan

graham christian
06-25-2012, 03:46 AM
Instead of arguing I will repeat

I wrote:

I think I was clear
Dan

Sorry, don't find it clear at all. "Where can you find?" you ask. Well I am surprised you haven't found.

When you say Ueshibas model then I haven't a clue what you are talking about. I don't think you know or understand his model. You know a model.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-25-2012, 04:00 AM
Dan, I could harmonize with anyone too on the mat. That means 'most' and also means they that I may have trouble with would be interesting and I have enough basic knowledge and ability to learn very quickly how to. So what's the problem?

You always seem to mention 'most Aikidoka' and such generalizations even about 'shihan'. Always generalizations. I ask why? What is your point? It's nothing new.

Pick any outstanding master of his art and then ask how many of you in that art can throw or do blah to him? The answer will always be no one or not many so to me it's a silly thing to say or argument to keep talking about.

Tohei had a model. Very spiritual principles. Worked very well. He was a master of it. That doesn't mean all his students would be masters of it. Maybe you should read Ueshibas rules of training.

Peace.G.

Chris Knight
06-25-2012, 05:31 AM
Dan, I could harmonize with anyone too on the mat. That means 'most' and also means they that I may have trouble with would be interesting and I have enough basic knowledge and ability to learn very quickly how to. So what's the problem?

Hi Graham, hope you are well!

What if you can't learn how to in the space of five minutes, and that the body work (training) takes 10 years + of specific excercises (solo) to have an effect

no matter how fast you learn

I think this is where the problem lies

Tom Verhoeven
06-25-2012, 06:48 AM
Hi Don
I essentially agree with the points above. I am on the run so I will have to post tonight. I have some answers as to how I see them meshing and influencing each other.
Dan

Dan,
I had hoped that you would have given us a bit more after this promise then what you gave us so far.

By the way, is there any change that you would willing to write a book on this subject?

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-25-2012, 07:04 AM
Sorry, but I can't seem to be able to connect your reply to my questions - although I appreciate the attempt. I'm sure it's me but I am left with the same feeling I got when I read an old definition of Transcendentalism as expressed by a New York lawyer:

"Transcendentalism is two holes in a sand-bank: a storm washes away the sand-bank without disturbing the holes."

Best regards,

Don
Love that quote, very, very funny, and a much clearer explanation then Heidegger himself gave... :D

Tom

Mary Eastland
06-25-2012, 08:16 AM
Hi Dan:
That being said....by you of course. The same reasoning applies to you.
Best,
Mary

DH
06-25-2012, 08:24 AM
Dan, I could harmonize with anyone too on the mat. That means 'most' and also means they that I may have trouble with would be interesting and I have enough basic knowledge and ability to learn very quickly how to. So what's the problem?

You always seem to mention 'most Aikidoka' and such generalizations even about 'shihan'. Always generalizations. I ask why? What is your point? It's nothing new.

Pick any outstanding master of his art and then ask how many of you in that art can throw or do blah to him? The answer will always be no one or not many so to me it's a silly thing to say or argument to keep talking about.

Tohei had a model. Very spiritual principles. Worked very well. He was a master of it. That doesn't mean all his students would be masters of it. Maybe you should read Ueshibas rules of training.

Peace.G.
Hi Graham
FWIW, Tohei's principles were physical models and not spiritual ones. And they were not his. Ueshiba's models and quotes were not his either, they were old and known.
Many people continue -through lack of education and understanding-to mistakenly assign singular genius to these individuals, of material they neither created, or forwarded. Assigning the brilliance of Math...to the professor who taught it to you is not a level of awareness to be supported or encouraged.

I have been trying to avoid discussions of personal skills, yet you and Mary keep discussing your personal abilities. In order to refute what I see as errors in your logic or understanding it therefore falls back into having to discuss personal abilities. I don't mind doing so as long as it can be a friendly and frank discussion.

My assessment from watching and reading?
You have no ability to harmonize with what I would do on a mat with you. You would have little to no ability to even defend yourself whatsoever. The ability and skills that were available to Ueshiba are something alien to your understanding, therefore you have no ability to understand how utterly outclassed you would be against that sort of power and skill....without waza. Imagining you could handle it is all most in Aikido have as they have never felt anything approaching that level of power and skill. This can be demonstrated in several ways without harm and with cordial humor. This can be demonstrated with real physical violence and harm. The choice of what to do becomes the will of the person possessing these skills. It is a well recognized fact that mercy belongs to the victor. Once the skills are achieved (and perhaps more the moral responsibilities and compassion

Regarding the knowledge of what Ueshiba was actually talking about; only one of us can understand the imbalance of the equation and it is the one possessing the superior knowledge, so I understand the confusion.
I have offered to demonstrate this to you in person in a friendly and fun way. It is the only way you are going to get to face this knowledge and level of skill and your own lack of understanding. There...all debates will end.
I am actually for you and not against you. I just don't see a productive means to end our (hopefully)friendly debates, other than hands on.

Dan

Mary Eastland
06-25-2012, 08:29 AM
Old adage: Help is only helpful if it is asked for. But thanks anyway.
Best,
Mary

DH
06-25-2012, 08:33 AM
Hi Dan:
That being said....by you of course. The same reasoning applies to you.
Best,
Mary
Not really Mary. In a very kind, albeit direct manner you would stand there dumbfounded as nothing you did worked. I know you see this as ego, but since I...unlike certain other people...never claimed ownership of the material, I would simply point to the greatness of the knowledge, and not us as individuals as the source. Once we get over the personal defense and look at how profound the work is, we can place it above ourselves as a goal we all work toward.
I am being kind, in stating flatly that many are going full speed in the wrong direction. Sadly, most only find out much later in their search.

Ueshiba was startling to seasoned Martial artists.
These skills, only now being made more public, are...well...startling to seasoned martial artists...who all thought...they were doing it already!!

Dan

mrlizard123
06-25-2012, 08:36 AM
Old adage: Help is only helpful if it is asked for. But thanks anyway.
Best,
Mary

Except when it comes to spelling or grammar I guess.

Your means that which you own...I think you might mean you're. Since we are talking about smart.

DH
06-25-2012, 08:48 AM
Old adage: Help is only helpful if it is asked for. But thanks anyway.
Best,
Mary
Well, you are the one willingly showing up in public and talking about an art and subject practiced by millions. You are being treated kindly as part of a discussion you entered into. I entered back into Aikido to discuss and demonstrate and compare Aiki skills. Your senior teachers are not doing too well in holding up your end, and the good news is...
They have no ego about it and are standing in rooms on an international stage....
And they ARE....asking for help.
In the fullness of time...they....will own Aikido, as no one else in Aikido will be able to do anything to them.
Ueshiba's knowledge and skills...win!!

Considering the fact that I and others are using Aikido as a base to bring the superiority of his method (Asian internal strength) on mats with other martial artists of all types-including seasoned MMA'ers...and they are becoming friends...I think he would be delighted. ;)

There is nothing quite like completely dominating their space and then offering a hand and a smile, then showing and actually teaching how, instead of being condescending and telling them to steal it, that really connects with people. It is respectful of their time and investment. Sort of the way we should have been taught and treated.
There is a component there that is connecting people, drawing and creating community and lifting our spirits, that is truly compelling. Many have discussed how this work is healing their bodies and changing the way they think and react in the world and on the mat, that is part of my spiritual Aikido.
Everyone keeps smiling...while standing there exhausted!!
Dan

DH
06-25-2012, 09:45 AM
Dan,
I had hoped that you would have given us a bit more after this promise then what you gave us so far.

By the way, is there any change that you would willing to write a book on this subject?

Tom
Struggling with some VERY sick family members and writing in hospital rooms and Doctors offices while waiting.
This topic is dear to me and I don't want to give it short shrift, as I do not have the head space to write at length right now.
In short, the reason Martial artists were and are always supposed to be different was in the way their heart/mind organized and controlled their bodies. In the process this inward looking model heals and strengthens the body AND the mind. What becomes vague and difficult to discuss is that this process renews and invigorates your spirit and gives you a feeling that I nicknamed "Living free in the world" as that is how it makes you feel. It very much resonates with what the Asians discuss with their forging the body, forging the spirit sayings. I find this all but totally divorced from the physical culture; lifting, stretching, running, message, eating well, Yoga model I grew up with. There a few similarities.
Oddly, the inward looking IP/aiki model creates balance in you in heart/mind/body that when expressed in paired training has both a different physical feel and a different result on the person connecting with you. I used to nail people and defeat them and they had a competitive, fight back, push/pull/ reactive mind. When I was continuing to deepen this training I would still win and defeat but it created different reactions IN THEM. I thought this was weird and unusual until I started reading more of the ICMA teachers tracking and describing similar phenomena when throwing people with IS. Truly connecting with someone is not so much about connecting with them as using...hence needing.. them as part of a pair, it is more that you are balanced in yourself and...they ...become part of you.
This has a weird and unnerving effect on them as they feel they lost control. It is not like what I have felt from Shihan in Aikido or Daito ryu. It is similar, yet it is different in that it is deeper and enters their physical space and their own mental -intention- to do something. It is somewhat interesting to hear it from traditional martial artists, but far more compelling to hear it from MMA'ers from full speed encounters. Too see someone smiling at you from behind a pair of 4 oz gloves and asking [I]"WTF was that?...Why am I always late?"[/] Starts to cement certain ideas that the Chinese had as concrete and true.

The flip side is that I find myself completely dissinterested anymore in causing harm. I am more interested in control and imbalance and diffusing and not allowing them to hurt me or control themselves to hurt me. It sounds very Aikido like doesn't it? The only difference being I am making it actually work in non cooperative environments.
Got to go
Dan

donhebert
06-25-2012, 10:09 AM
Dan,

Thank you for a response under duress. This quality of an experience of "creating a pair" that changes something deep in both people is profoundly interesting to me and not exactly what I expected you to say. There is a fatuous element in Aikido (and other martial arts) that somehow one's amazing abilities are going to create a miraclulous transformation in the attacker. This has always seemed to me to be improbable in the extreme and as a result my focus has been kept on changing myself. But your brief description hints at the possiblity of a mutual transformation, one that has an impersonal quality and whose genesis is in the nature of the connection itself. I am very interested to hear more from you on this when this is possible and you are willing.

Having done my share of sitting in the hospital waiting room and being with extremely sick loved ones, you truly have my sympathy. I wish you and your family healing and the best outcome possible.

Best regards,

Don

Chris Knight
06-25-2012, 10:11 AM
There is nothing quite like completely dominating their space and then offering a hand and a smile, then showing and actually teaching how, instead of being condescending and telling them to steal it, that really connects with people. It is respectful of their time and investment. Sort of the way we should have been taught and treated.
There is a component there that is connecting people, drawing and creating community and lifting our spirits, that is truly compelling. Many have discussed how this work is healing their bodies and changing the way they think and react in the world and on the mat, that is part of my spiritual Aikido.
Everyone keeps smiling...while standing there exhausted!!

excellent post!

jonreading
06-25-2012, 12:29 PM
1. I think there are many people with whom I would not wish to "harmonize" on the mat. If, by harmonize, you mean use to clean the tatami. I think there is a level of zealousness here that implies a [martial] competency many aikido people do not possess...unless you play the game and collude aikido.
2. Some of these concepts seem rather lop-sided. For example, harmony is not "nage always winning." I think we need to differentiate between role-playing at the global citizen who is always right and engaging in budo. Sometimes nage is wrong and uke is correcting our behavior.

How can we train ichi go, ichi ie, while simultaneously allowing nage a few minutes to figure us out? How can we see everyone as "not an enemy" and then construct an enemy to vanquish? When I hear guys like Dan remind us not to play dress-up, these are the concepts that I believe hurt our practice.

Uke and nage are the same thing. So anything we claim as nage must be true of uke. To create cult worship based upon nage waza is unproductive because it does not consider uke. For me, budo is about understanding not only how not to cut down our opponent, but also how to cut down our opponent. I cannot fulfill my role as uke if I cannot commit to cutting down my opponent. This is [for me] why so many other practitioners consider aikido cooperative at worst and collusive at best. I think when you look at a spiritual side to aikido, you need to address its inclusivity of both attacking and defending. Otherwise, whatever you are doing ceases to be martially valid.

graham christian
06-25-2012, 02:08 PM
Hi Graham, hope you are well!

What if you can't learn how to in the space of five minutes, and that the body work (training) takes 10 years + of specific excercises (solo) to have an effect

no matter how fast you learn

I think this is where the problem lies

Hi Chris.
Good to hear from you.

I wouldn't expect to learn anything new in five minutes. I could guarantee it wouldn't take me ten years though. However I understand learning as a process and if I decide to follow that process, whatever it is I know it's purely down to my disciplined study and practice and application as to how far I go along that road. If I'm decided then I always get there and how long it takes means nothing to me. Time is not a consideration.

So there can never be a problem to me as far as that goes.

Being well acquainted with body changing disciplines from body building to health to even so called miraculous changes I don't see how it necessarily has to take so long.

Having said that I think you know me well enough to know I see those things as less important than spiritual and mind changes.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-25-2012, 03:15 PM
Hi Graham
FWIW, Tohei's principles were physical models and not spiritual ones. And they were not his. Ueshiba's models and quotes were not his either, they were old and known.
Many people continue -through lack of education and understanding-to mistakenly assign singular genius to these individuals, of material they neither created, or forwarded. Assigning the brilliance of Math...to the professor who taught it to you is not a level of awareness to be supported or encouraged.

I have been trying to avoid discussions of personal skills, yet you and Mary keep discussing your personal abilities. In order to refute what I see as errors in your logic or understanding it therefore falls back into having to discuss personal abilities. I don't mind doing so as long as it can be a friendly and frank discussion.

My assessment from watching and reading?
You have no ability to harmonize with what I would do on a mat with you. You would have little to no ability to even defend yourself whatsoever. The ability and skills that were available to Ueshiba are something alien to your understanding, therefore you have no ability to understand how utterly outclassed you would be against that sort of power and skill....without waza. Imagining you could handle it is all most in Aikido have as they have never felt anything approaching that level of power and skill. This can be demonstrated in several ways without harm and with cordial humor. This can be demonstrated with real physical violence and harm. The choice of what to do becomes the will of the person possessing these skills. It is a well recognized fact that mercy belongs to the victor. Once the skills are achieved (and perhaps more the moral responsibilities and compassion

Regarding the knowledge of what Ueshiba was actually talking about; only one of us can understand the imbalance of the equation and it is the one possessing the superior knowledge, so I understand the confusion.
I have offered to demonstrate this to you in person in a friendly and fun way. It is the only way you are going to get to face this knowledge and level of skill and your own lack of understanding. There...all debates will end.
I am actually for you and not against you. I just don't see a productive means to end our (hopefully)friendly debates, other than hands on.

Dan

Dan, please, give credit to someone. Toheis model was obviously spiritual and saying it wasn't and indeed saying it wasn't his is a bit incredulous really. Only validates to me that you can't really know that much about it.

Many people continue to through lack of education and respect to to try and undermine others by saying 'it wasn't theirs' My Aikido is mine, no one elses. My sayings are mine and anyone elses sayings or words of wisdom I decide to post on my wall would be because I would say the same. It is still me communicating and doing so for a specific reason. As did Ueshiba. So once again I see no reason to try and make something out of it negatively. Moses gave the words of God as did Jesus etc.etc and many give the words of stellar wise men of the past, that's good. That's passing on considered important information. To dismiss it folly.

Bottom line though, if he used it or spoke it or wrote it then he meant it. Simple.

As far as the rest of what you say above goes I can only say read Ueshiba's rules of teaching.

Finally, if you want to discuss ability, which you indeed keep talking about, then do so. I haven't seen such up to now. I don't count 'I could do this to anyone and they can't handle me' as a discussion on ability at all. In fact to me personally it's a put off.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-25-2012, 03:24 PM
1. I think there are many people with whom I would not wish to "harmonize" on the mat. If, by harmonize, you mean use to clean the tatami. I think there is a level of zealousness here that implies a [martial] competency many aikido people do not possess...unless you play the game and collude aikido.
2. Some of these concepts seem rather lop-sided. For example, harmony is not "nage always winning." I think we need to differentiate between role-playing at the global citizen who is always right and engaging in budo. Sometimes nage is wrong and uke is correcting our behavior.

How can we train ichi go, ichi ie, while simultaneously allowing nage a few minutes to figure us out? How can we see everyone as "not an enemy" and then construct an enemy to vanquish? When I hear guys like Dan remind us not to play dress-up, these are the concepts that I believe hurt our practice.

Uke and nage are the same thing. So anything we claim as nage must be true of uke. To create cult worship based upon nage waza is unproductive because it does not consider uke. For me, budo is about understanding not only how not to cut down our opponent, but also how to cut down our opponent. I cannot fulfill my role as uke if I cannot commit to cutting down my opponent. This is [for me] why so many other practitioners consider aikido cooperative at worst and collusive at best. I think when you look at a spiritual side to aikido, you need to address its inclusivity of both attacking and defending. Otherwise, whatever you are doing ceases to be martially valid.

I agree.

Peace.G.

chillzATL
06-25-2012, 03:48 PM
Dan, please, give credit to someone. Toheis model was obviously spiritual and saying it wasn't and indeed saying it wasn't his is a bit incredulous really. Only validates to me that you can't really know that much about it

obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.

DH
06-25-2012, 04:08 PM
Dan, please, give credit to someone. Toheis model was obviously spiritual and saying it wasn't and indeed saying it wasn't his is a bit incredulous really. Only validates to me that you can't really know that much about it.

Many people continue to through lack of education and respect to to try and undermine others by saying 'it wasn't theirs' My Aikido is mine, no one elses. My sayings are mine and anyone elses sayings or words of wisdom I decide to post on my wall would be because I would say the same. It is still me communicating and doing so for a specific reason. As did Ueshiba. So once again I see no reason to try and make something out of it negatively.
Peace.G.
Graham
No...er...your aikido...came from Aikido ...then you made some it your own.
You didn't invent aikido.
Neither did Ueshiba invent the work that gave him power. And HE...never claimed he did. Others wrote that ridiculous story.
His famous sayings? Ueshiba was quoting others.
Toheis work came from others as well

Your lack of awareness does not change history or facts. IOW, your lack of awareness of the existence of these principles they espoused and that it predates them by centuries doesn't help us communicate. Neither did your not knowing such simple things as in/yo being the Japanese version of yin yang, but note I don't get angry about it. Rather I just keep stating it over and over and proving they existed prior to both. So is Chris Li. We are trying to help.
Ueshiba's and Tohei's models and teachings are ages old and verbatim to what was taught for centuries. It being new to you does not make it new...or even news worthy. Reading such things as six direction awareness and heaven/earth/man and how it effects power and balance from a Koryu in 1451 and then Ueshiba quoting it and the tora no maki..is just more evidence of pre-existing work. And not surprisingly...those training it today, are powerful because these things produce power.

I don't mind helping here and there but many people are at least trying to read and digest more of the background material. It is inescapable and anyone on the other side of this basic understanding is not going to look good. :rolleyes:
Dan

DH
06-25-2012, 04:27 PM
obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.
There isn't any.
Further, Ueshiba is cited over and over saying that aiki is not a religion or spiritual, only that it supported and informed anyones religion. Most of the stuff Ueshiba was doing and was on about was to produce power in a physical sense. There was other training but we now have him concretely quoting well known IS principles and all but copying some in his doka.
Sadly they were misquoted, not quoted at all...or were assigned as spiritual mumbo jumbo by a largely ignorant audience. I love the story of him running in with an anatomy book and trying to explain that this was what he was talking about. :D

Sure he prayed and went on about God/Gods, but he was careful to discuss budo principles as budo principles as well. There is no escaping the fact that those now training the principles he was talking about are now starting to gain power. And some of us are just simply blowing away those who are insisting it was spiritually infused power and yet have none of his power to support anything they say. :rolleyes:
I mean...seriously??

This turns into a ridiculous debate, but only on the net. In person they just stand there stunned.
What are we supposed to say? "Good job?"

Seriously..I'm flummoxed. If I can meet someone...anyone...Japanese Shihan...Western Shihan...dear Lord ANYONE!!!...who keeps talking about the spiritual stuff as a path to power and that it was what Ueshiba was doing...that would be great. Then we can see if they can actually do something meaningful against what we say Ueshiba was talking about that produces power and real results...
Any takers? Please introduce me and let us cross hands and talk.

Dan

graham christian
06-25-2012, 04:32 PM
obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.

Emphasis on "mumbo jumbo" not spiritual.

I will not give citations but rather say read up on his life and Aikido approach and discover for yourself.

I will however explain. One point is spiritual, it is a very well known spiritual location point which you can read up about also under chakras or yoga etc. You will find he developed this approach through spiritual training of shin shin toitsu before he used the name for his Aikido.

The basics people refer to are keep one point, (spiritual) extend Ki (spiritual) relax completely (understood when done spiritually) keep weight underside (spiritual)

Then his five rules of Aikido: Three to do with Ki (spiritual) one to do with motion (take your partners place) which later on takes on a more profound spiritual aspect re: sen no sen, and perform with confidence. This is actually spiritual too but you may call it mental.

So I suggest you read up on him and his experiences including in the war, one to do with bullets missing him and how he related that spiritually to Aikido.

All these things like one point, chakras, ground enrgy etc were discovered by spiritual masters of the past. Why? Because they are spiritual. As is center line and hara etc. In fact center line can be called the hara line.

I also believe that the one point was an inherent japanese thing even before chinese influence but that may need verifying. I was told once that Mas Oyama had this as his basic principle too. Once again that may or may not be true.

So basically Tohei wanted to put these things in a way that was easily communicatable (without the mumbo jumbo) and could be worked with as principles with desired effects. Thus he developed his way of teaching.

I'm not surprised seeing how others got lost when told about what one point refers to and the universal love and spirit of loving protection for all things and absolute non-resistance and the kotodama etc. He simplified it for use, practical use. For teaching purposes. A model. His model. In fact he had many sets of principles, not just the two sets I mention above. All in groups of five.

Peace.G.

chillzATL
06-25-2012, 05:17 PM
Emphasis on "mumbo jumbo" not spiritual.

I will not give citations but rather say read up on his life and Aikido approach and discover for yourself.

I will however explain. One point is spiritual, it is a very well known spiritual location point which you can read up about also under chakras or yoga etc. You will find he developed this approach through spiritual training of shin shin toitsu before he used the name for his Aikido.

The basics people refer to are keep one point, (spiritual) extend Ki (spiritual) relax completely (understood when done spiritually) keep weight underside (spiritual)

Then his five rules of Aikido: Three to do with Ki (spiritual) one to do with motion (take your partners place) which later on takes on a more profound spiritual aspect re: sen no sen, and perform with confidence. This is actually spiritual too but you may call it mental.

So I suggest you read up on him and his experiences including in the war, one to do with bullets missing him and how he related that spiritually to Aikido.

All these things like one point, chakras, ground enrgy etc were discovered by spiritual masters of the past. Why? Because they are spiritual. As is center line and hara etc. In fact center line can be called the hara line.

I also believe that the one point was an inherent japanese thing even before chinese influence but that may need verifying. I was told once that Mas Oyama had this as his basic principle too. Once again that may or may not be true.

So basically Tohei wanted to put these things in a way that was easily communicatable (without the mumbo jumbo) and could be worked with as principles with desired effects. Thus he developed his way of teaching.

I'm not surprised seeing how others got lost when told about what one point refers to and the universal love and spirit of loving protection for all things and absolute non-resistance and the kotodama etc. He simplified it for use, practical use. For teaching purposes. A model. His model. In fact he had many sets of principles, not just the two sets I mention above. All in groups of five.

Peace.G.

Well Graham, it's all out there to read so to really support what you're saying you need to provide some citations. If you're not willing to do that then maybe you shouldn't be so bold in telling everyone how they misunderstood and got lost, where you didn't. You've already confused an "event", the dodging of bullets, from Ueshiba's life with that of Tohei's. So how can you, much less the rest of us, be sure that your recollections are as clear as you seem to think they are? It's one thing to have bold opinions, but if you're not willing to stand by them and back them up with facts then they obviously don't mean anything to you, so why should it mean anything to us?

graham christian
06-25-2012, 05:30 PM
Graham
No...er...your aikido...came from Aikido ...then you made some it your own.
You didn't invent aikido.
Neither did Ueshiba invent the work that gave him power. And HE...never claimed he did. Others wrote that ridiculous story.
His famous sayings? Ueshiba was quoting others.
Toheis work came from others as well

Your lack of awareness does not change history or facts. IOW, your lack of awareness of the existence of these principles they espoused and that it predates them by centuries doesn't help us communicate. Neither did your not knowing such simple things as in/yo being the Japanese version of yin yang, but note I don't get angry about it. Rather I just keep stating it over and over and proving they existed prior to both. So is Chris Li. We are trying to help.
Ueshiba's and Tohei's models and teachings are ages old and verbatim to what was taught for centuries. It being new to you does not make it new...or even news worthy. Reading such things as six direction awareness and heaven/earth/man and how it effects power and balance from a Koryu in 1451 and then Ueshiba quoting it and the tora no maki..is just more evidence of pre-existing work. And not surprisingly...those training it today, are powerful because these things produce power.

I don't mind helping here and there but many people are at least trying to read and digest more of the background material. It is inescapable and anyone on the other side of this basic understanding is not going to look good. :rolleyes:
Dan

Dan. You miss the point. That line of reasoning you use is pointless. When a person thoroughly knows something and makes it their own then it is. When you know it conceptually and real like concrete you have it. Nothing to do with words.

He did invent Aikido actually. The principles are universal and so have been there since the beginning of all existence so no one invented them but some discovered them. No one however invented Aikido but him.

You saying Ueshiba never said a sentence from his own perspective?

If you want to go deeply philosophical then your own body is not yours either, it belongs to mother nature and there again the words you use aren't yours either for you never invented them. So you see using that type of reasoning is fine for spiritual practice but not for trying to give the impression that a person had no original thought.

Whatever you create in this real universe is your creation, no one elses.

You can study history as much as you like to see similar or who else said similar or indeed who may have influenced but the present time creation is of that person and thus his.

Form a new martial art with a new name to be done as you teach relating certain techniques and principles according to your model is thus your creation. Thus yours. No one elses. A new invention.

So forget the word invention Dan, try creation.

Tohei created a new model for teaching too. New creation. No one else taught Aikido or martial arts according to those principles in that fashion. So it was his.

Trying to tell me six direction etc (principles) have been around centuries is irrelevant for the principles of Aikido have been there since the beginning of time. That's nothing to do with the thing created from them. Bagua was created from them. Tai chi too. All different.

I am fully aware of the fact of universal truths underpinning everything so think again on that one.

Knowing the japanese for yin and yang hardly has anything to do with awareness so I think you mix up 'data and knowledge' with awareness. I bet there are pigmies in the jungle who know yin and yang yet wouldn't know the japanese or chinese or english words for it. Hardly makes them unaware of it.

I'm glad you called it background data though, at least that puts it more into perspective.

You and Chris Li go on about history. It's your translations of what was meant and your and use of it that I disagree with not any fact of it.

In my view you use bits only to fit your view and try to discount what Ueshiba said on a number of occasions with the excuse it wasn't his. To me that's not sensible or open or reason. Everything you do say he said and get all enthusiastic about no doubt was also said before by someone else.

I take all he said for that was him, no matter where it originated, it was him communicating with relation to Aikido. His creation, his decision to use those words for that reason at that time. No one elses.

Peace.G.

chillzATL
06-25-2012, 05:31 PM
I will however explain. One point is spiritual, it is a very well known spiritual location point which you can read up about also under chakras or yoga etc. You will find he developed this approach through spiritual training of shin shin toitsu before he used the name for his Aikido.

The basics people refer to are keep one point, (spiritual) extend Ki (spiritual) relax completely (understood when done spiritually) keep weight underside (spiritual)



also, I'm sitting here thumbing through my first edition printing of Tohei's Aikido: the arts of self-defense and when I go to the section on the one point I don't see much of anything relating to spirituality there. He talks about where it is physically located in the body and a little bit about mind-body coordination and concentration, but nothing about spirituality. In fairness, he does mention zen and yoga (two sentences), but only in relating how the one point has been around and discussed for centuries before him. He even says that hard physical training is required to attain proficiency. Not deep spiritual practice, but hard training.

When I go to the section on relaxation, nothing about the spirit, but he does give some very descriptive physical examples of relaxing the body (letting the arms hang heavy, shaking the hands, etc.).

and for the record I come from this lineage and I am fairly familiar with it as it has been practiced up to this point.

graham christian
06-25-2012, 05:53 PM
Well Graham, it's all out there to read so to really support what you're saying you need to provide some citations. If you're not willing to do that then maybe you shouldn't be so bold in telling everyone how they misunderstood and got lost, where you didn't. You've already confused an "event", the dodging of bullets, from Ueshiba's life with that of Tohei's. So how can you, much less the rest of us, be sure that your recollections are as clear as you seem to think they are? It's one thing to have bold opinions, but if you're not willing to stand by them and back them up with facts then they obviously don't mean anything to you, so why should it mean anything to us?

No Jason I haven't confused an isuue. I know of Ueshiba's dodging of bullets and seeing balls of light etc and I am talking about in battle with Tohei.

I haven't told everyone how they have misunderstood so word games are irrelevant.

Subject: Spiritual. Ki, spiritual. Maybe yours isn't. Mmmmm.

Scared of spiritual? Then you are scared of yourself.

You don't want to read up on his life then that's up to you. Not my problem.

Peace.G.

chillzATL
06-25-2012, 06:05 PM
No Jason I haven't confused an isuue. I know of Ueshiba's dodging of bullets and seeing balls of light etc and I am talking about in battle with Tohei.

I haven't told everyone how they have misunderstood so word games are irrelevant.

Subject: Spiritual. Ki, spiritual. Maybe yours isn't. Mmmmm.

Scared of spiritual? Then you are scared of yourself.

You don't want to read up on his life then that's up to you. Not my problem.

Peace.G.

I am not familar with any such event in Tohei's life and a googling of "tohei dodging bullets" only provides me with Ueshiba's story, not Tohei's. So please, provide citations to support what you said. I will readily admit that I made a mistake.

Maybe not everyone, just the ones who question and disagree with you?

chillzATL
06-25-2012, 06:15 PM
There isn't any.
Further, Ueshiba is cited over and over saying that aiki is not a religion or spiritual, only that it supported and informed anyones religion. Most of the stuff Ueshiba was doing and was on about was to produce power in a physical sense. There was other training but we now have him concretely quoting well known IS principles and all but copying some in his doka.
Sadly they were misquoted, not quoted at all...or were assigned as spiritual mumbo jumbo by a largely ignorant audience. I love the story of him running in with an anatomy book and trying to explain that this was what he was talking about. :D

Sure he prayed and went on about God/Gods, but he was careful to discuss budo principles as budo principles as well. There is no escaping the fact that those now training the principles he was talking about are now starting to gain power. And some of us are just simply blowing away those who are insisting it was spiritually infused power and yet have none of his power to support anything they say. :rolleyes:
I mean...seriously??

This turns into a ridiculous debate, but only on the net. In person they just stand there stunned.
What are we supposed to say? "Good job?"

Seriously..I'm flummoxed. If I can meet someone...anyone...Japanese Shihan...Western Shihan...dear Lord ANYONE!!!...who keeps talking about the spiritual stuff as a path to power and that it was what Ueshiba was doing...that would be great. Then we can see if they can actually do something meaningful against what we say Ueshiba was talking about that produces power and real results...
Any takers? Please introduce me and let us cross hands and talk.

Dan

You know Dan, i'm not entirely convinced that Graham isn't just trolling us all for his own laughs. Coming up with off the wall stuff and refusing to support any of it simply to see how much effort people will waste to sway him. That's one of the reasons I just try to avoid his posts. I mean why else would someone come up with so many off the wall ideas in the face of real facts and then refuse to support them beyond saying "I think it's true, so it's true"?

graham christian
06-25-2012, 06:48 PM
I am not familar with any such event in Tohei's life and a googling of "tohei dodging bullets" only provides me with Ueshiba's story, not Tohei's. So please, provide citations to support what you said. I will readily admit that I made a mistake.

Maybe not everyone, just the ones who question and disagree with you?

Jason. If you look up 'an interview with Koichi Tohei' by stanley pranin part 4 then when he talks about his experience to do with Kiatsu and state of mind etc. you will find the reference of him in the battlefield with bullets flying around his head.

Peace.G.

chillzATL
06-25-2012, 07:38 PM
Jason. If you look up 'an interview with Koichi Tohei' by stanley pranin part 4 then when he talks about his experience to do with Kiatsu and state of mind etc. you will find the reference of him in the battlefield with bullets flying around his head.

Peace.G.

Ok thanks, read them before a few times, but its been a while. Ill have to read all four now, I'll comment when I'm done.

graham christian
06-25-2012, 07:50 PM
You know Dan, i'm not entirely convinced that Graham isn't just trolling us all for his own laughs. Coming up with off the wall stuff and refusing to support any of it simply to see how much effort people will waste to sway him. That's one of the reasons I just try to avoid his posts. I mean why else would someone come up with so many off the wall ideas in the face of real facts and then refuse to support them beyond saying "I think it's true, so it's true"?

Jason. You come on my thread and I answer your questions. I do not follow you around so 'trolling' would fit you if all you want to do is put down.

I think you should do a thorough study of the roots and basic principles of all martial arts and you will find they are all spiritual.

Shin shin Toitsu is based format wise on yoga which was a moving form of yoga and traces to spiritual principles of the Indian religious texts.

I mentioned Mas Oyama and once again the Master points out the spiritual basis and import of such. It's always the case and always will be. In fact the coloured belts are directly related to chakras.

When the truth is seen as off the wall then I know I am talking to the wrong person.

Peace.G.

Marc Abrams
06-25-2012, 09:10 PM
You know Dan, i'm not entirely convinced that Graham isn't just trolling us all for his own laughs. Coming up with off the wall stuff and refusing to support any of it simply to see how much effort people will waste to sway him. That's one of the reasons I just try to avoid his posts. I mean why else would someone come up with so many off the wall ideas in the face of real facts and then refuse to support them beyond saying "I think it's true, so it's true"?

Jason:

I think that the troll description is too simplistic to cover Graham. He has a unique quality in which his ignorance of facts is matched by his arrogance of his own assumptions. He has never met Tohei Sensei, his teacher was not a direct student of Tohei Sensei and yet he seems to "know" Tohei Sensei better than people who have real history and understandings about Tohei Sensei. This same pattern can be applied to anyone he claims to "know." He tries to talk about martial arts principles that he is beyond clueless about. Simply look at his videos on youtube and all you need to see is right in front of you. At the end of day, he is incapable, unwilling, etc..... to try and put actions behind his words. Then again, after watching his videos, he is safer taking this approach. His studious avoidance of meeting Dan also speaks for itself. Maybe Graham should try and match Tohei Sensei's integrity. Tohei did not come up with excuses and reasons for not facing challenges to his martial abilities, he simply put his words into action. Holding our breath, waiting for Graham to step up to the proverbial plate is not a recommended course! ;)

Marc Abrams

chillzATL
06-25-2012, 09:16 PM
I read all four parts of the aikido journal article and didn't find the incident you mentioned above. I did find, at the end of part 3, where he mentioned O'sensei's incident though. He did have a lot of interesting things to say about ki and some of the other interpretations of it out there though. You should reread it yourself, great stuff. Also, there are the other examples from his book that were quite clearly not spiritual exercises, but physical ones. If you want to say that stuff is spiritual for you, fine, go for it, but don't go off saying that his stuff was because he seems to have gone to pretty great lengths to leave that out of what he was doing.

Tom Verhoeven
06-25-2012, 09:19 PM
Struggling with some VERY sick family members and writing in hospital rooms and Doctors offices while waiting.
This topic is dear to me and I don't want to give it short shrift, as I do not have the head space to write at length right now.
In short, the reason Martial artists were and are always supposed to be different was in the way their heart/mind organized and controlled their bodies. In the process this inward looking model heals and strengthens the body AND the mind. What becomes vague and difficult to discuss is that this process renews and invigorates your spirit and gives you a feeling that I nicknamed "Living free in the world" as that is how it makes you feel. It very much resonates with what the Asians discuss with their forging the body, forging the spirit sayings. I find this all but totally divorced from the physical culture; lifting, stretching, running, message, eating well, Yoga model I grew up with. There a few similarities.
Oddly, the inward looking IP/aiki model creates balance in you in heart/mind/body that when expressed in paired training has both a different physical feel and a different result on the person connecting with you. I used to nail people and defeat them and they had a competitive, fight back, push/pull/ reactive mind. When I was continuing to deepen this training I would still win and defeat but it created different reactions IN THEM. I thought this was weird and unusual until I started reading more of the ICMA teachers tracking and describing similar phenomena when throwing people with IS. Truly connecting with someone is not so much about connecting with them as using...hence needing.. them as part of a pair, it is more that you are balanced in yourself and...they ...become part of you.
This has a weird and unnerving effect on them as they feel they lost control. It is not like what I have felt from Shihan in Aikido or Daito ryu. It is similar, yet it is different in that it is deeper and enters their physical space and their own mental -intention- to do something. It is somewhat interesting to hear it from traditional martial artists, but far more compelling to hear it from MMA'ers from full speed encounters. Too see someone smiling at you from behind a pair of 4 oz gloves and asking [I]"WTF was that?...Why am I always late?"[/] Starts to cement certain ideas that the Chinese had as concrete and true.

The flip side is that I find myself completely dissinterested anymore in causing harm. I am more interested in control and imbalance and diffusing and not allowing them to hurt me or control themselves to hurt me. It sounds very Aikido like doesn't it? The only difference being I am making it actually work in non cooperative environments.
Got to go
Dan

Dan,
Thank you for taking time to respond, especially during such a difficult period of time.
Your explanation has made several things that you have mentioned before much clearer. It also took away a few of the matters that I found very confusing or contradictory
For instance, somehow I had gotten the impression before that you were only talking about the body and not about the mind. That made it difficult for me to place you in line with classical Budo that almost without exception mention this changing and renewing of the mind.

The change in the other that you mentioned I found most interesting and it resonates with some of my own experiences. To me it extends also beyond the world of martial arts. It is something that can happen in every interaction.

And I agree, what you say here sounds very much like Aikido - in optima forma.

Having spend all too often time in hospitals waiting, I can imagine what you are going through. Wishing you and your loved ones lots of strength and a return to good health.

Tom

sakumeikan
06-26-2012, 02:48 AM
Jason. If you look up 'an interview with Koichi Tohei' by stanley pranin part 4 then when he talks about his experience to do with Kiatsu and state of mind etc. you will find the reference of him in the battlefield with bullets flying around his head.

Peace.G.

Dear Graham,
My old great granddad fought in France in the first World War.He sustained injuries to his stomach area.Now lots of soldiers have been in battle and had bullets flying around them.Thats expected when some guy is trying to knock you off.The enemy is not firing custard pies at his enemy.So Graham , my old great granddad had the same experiences, so does this make himin effect the same as Tohei Sensei?I think not.Your logic is flawed.All that Tohei Sensei said was he in effect had a clear mind.Try as others have suggested and give more relevant facts/documentation to support your theories.Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
06-26-2012, 03:17 AM
There isn't any.
Further, Ueshiba is cited over and over saying that aiki is not a religion or spiritual, only that it supported and informed anyones religion. Most of the stuff Ueshiba was doing and was on about was to produce power in a physical sense. There was other training but we now have him concretely quoting well known IS principles and all but copying some in his doka.
Sadly they were misquoted, not quoted at all...or were assigned as spiritual mumbo jumbo by a largely ignorant audience. I love the story of him running in with an anatomy book and trying to explain that this was what he was talking about. :D

Sure he prayed and went on about God/Gods, but he was careful to discuss budo principles as budo principles as well. There is no escaping the fact that those now training the principles he was talking about are now starting to gain power. And some of us are just simply blowing away those who are insisting it was spiritually infused power and yet have none of his power to support anything they say. :rolleyes:
I mean...seriously??

This turns into a ridiculous debate, but only on the net. In person they just stand there stunned.
What are we supposed to say? "Good job?"

Seriously..I'm flummoxed. If I can meet someone...anyone...Japanese Shihan...Western Shihan...dear Lord ANYONE!!!...who keeps talking about the spiritual stuff as a path to power and that it was what Ueshiba was doing...that would be great. Then we can see if they can actually do something meaningful against what we say Ueshiba was talking about that produces power and real results...
Any takers? Please introduce me and let us cross hands and talk.

Dan

Dear Dan,
There is no doubt that O Sensei was heavily influenced by his religious beliefs.Can we agree on that? It is also well known that his uchideshi were subjected to long discourses on stuff like the Kojiki etc.relationship of gods/man etc.Most if not all was not understood by the Uchi Deshi.Some at a later point in time may well have a better idea of what Ueshiba was talking about.I think O Sensei
used terms which are laced with imagery /hidden meaning/koans.
At the same time I am sure O Sensei was aware of Chinese/Indian concepts of Yin Yang /In Jo /Ki /Prana, and ascetic practices/Misogi]..Whether these developed his body art is not totally clear, I believe these various streams of info. must have had some bearing.My own slight knowledge of Chinese arts/Tibetan/Indian yoga suggest that this is case.It would suggest to me that he acquired body skills through intensive training methods and his work on the land.This no doubt gave him a powerful physique[see his early days pics].So a powerful body /mind and backed up with
religious beliefs[Animism/Shamenism ] I think this is how he became the man he was.Cheers, Joe.

Cheers, Joe.

tombuchanan
06-26-2012, 04:54 AM
Probably poor form to quote the wiki but..

The real birth of Aikido came as the result of three instances of spiritual awakening that Ueshiba experienced. The first happened in 1925, after Ueshiba had defeated a naval officer's bokken (wooden katana) attacks unarmed and without hurting the officer. Ueshiba then walked to his garden and had a spiritual awakening.

Onisaburo Deguchi
... I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.
At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love - the spirit of loving protection for all beings ...
Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.[12]

His second experience occurred in 1940 when,
"Around 2am as I was performing misogi, I suddenly forgot all the martial techniques I had ever learned. The techniques of my teachers appeared completely new. Now they were vehicles for the cultivation of life, knowledge, and virtue, not devices to throw people with."[citation needed]

His third experience was in 1942 during the worst fighting of WWII, Ueshiba had a vision of the "Great Spirit of Peace".[2]
"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love.

..I'm still wondering how one can really have any kind of spiritual practice without some sort of enlightenment or awakening. Shouldn't the focus be on finding these experiences instead of copying the movements of those who got hit by the spiritual anvil? If not, aren't we just putting on our Air Jordan's and trying to pretend we're in the NBA?

As some frequently point out, the non-cooperative opponent is a necessity. Obviously, if someone's "stuff" only works against cooperative opponents or those of a lesser physical stature, the value of that "stuff" is dubious. Similarly, if a spiritual practice is merely a copy of someone else's tradition or collection of aphorisms, can it really be spiritual?

In the same way that martial effectiveness is validated by success against a non-cooperative opponent, isn't spiritual veracity proven through a genuine transformational experience?

Chris Parkerson
06-26-2012, 08:33 AM
Thankyou Tom,

I really resonate with this. This kind of Budo has a real voice in today's global issues.
It gives direction and purpose to our political, social, economic, and environmental choices.
It reminds me of Tecumseh's words of wisdom.

http://coyoteprime-runningcauseicantfly.blogspot.com/2012/05/tecumseh-live-your-life.html?m=1

Puha

Chris

gregstec
06-26-2012, 08:46 AM
obviously? He was pretty clear that one of the big differences between what he did and what Ueshiba did was that his approach cut out all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo. If you want to go on and consider ki some spiritual thing and not physical, then I guess you can do that, but you're going to have to give some citations to support that. I also have a few of his early books and I don't recall much in them to support what you're saying, but I'm open to the possibility if you have it.

I am with you on this - When I think of Tohei and his stuff, spiritual just does not come into mind - ki is what Tohei was all about and Ki is not a spiritual thing; it is simply an energy that bridges the mental to the physical.

Greg

Mary Eastland
06-26-2012, 09:10 AM
If spiritual is described as connection and compassion (quick description not just limited to that) and not religion, Ki has everything to do with it. The energy that connects the physical to the emotional, in my opinion, is the spiritual. Aikido practiced with an emphasis on Ki development enhances that awareness.

Chris Knight
06-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Im toadally confused :confused:

Punami

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-26-2012, 10:09 AM
Im toadally confused :confused:

Punami

Chris

Is that Asian or vajayjay?

Chris

Chris Knight
06-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Is that Asian or vajayjay?

Chris


its an old yorkshire saying i believe

Chris

DH
06-26-2012, 11:05 AM
If spiritual is described as connection and compassion (quick description not just limited to that) and not religion, Ki has everything to do with it. The energy that connects the physical to the emotional, in my opinion, is the spiritual. Aikido practiced with an emphasis on Ki development enhances that awareness.
Good grief
This is a whole lot of.... nothing useful. Nor will it accomplish anything in Aikido.

Discussions of beliefs; I believe, she believes, I feel...he thinks...etc., have produced the same delightful meanderings as Joe Currans comments. Listen, blending every term and item you could think of; Chinese/Indian concepts of Yin Yang /In Jo /Ki /Prana/ ascetic practices/Misogi/ and add in Grahams wanderings/wonderings of chakras producing power will add up to the production of exactly..........nothing.

Neither will such stellar teaching advice as:
"Move insides"
"Just relax"
"Make connect"
"Make a four legged animal"
"See? Absorb....take in."
"Make correct feeling"
"Move from center"

There are very real methods and means to use the mind to produce physical results that seem otherworldy and weird, almost inexplicable. The asian knew this and codified many of these models and had teachings with catch phrases. the same phrases that Ueshiba was using. Those of us who know what moves what, what ki was and how to manipulate and strengthen it and how to train in the existing Asian model that Ueshiba was quoting over and over...to ACTUALLY CONNECT THE BODY, then connect to force coming in....will forever dominate those pursuing only the spiritual path...
Ueshiba knew this all to well and his spiritual pursuit NEVER produced the power you are all hoping for. It was his pursuit of the classic internal strength model that produced the aiki everyone is shooting for. Your lack of understanding of this simple fact does nothing to strengthen any case or belief to the contrary. Ignorance of these simple facts, is not a good foundation for an argument.
For those who pursue the correct model, as Ueshiba did? We will control you...take your center...defeat you...force you to harmonize with us...and we will be the center and focus of every engagement that takes place.
Why?
The spiritual only model simply cannot produce the results the real Asian model of internal strength that Ueshiba pursued, can.
Why?
Because that spiritual only model never existed on the earth in Budo and it never will. You do not know what you are talking about when it comes to the source of power in the Asian arts.....and that really is all there is to it.

Don't agree? Step on mat in front of witnesses!
It is happening around the world and those of you who only follow this nebulous, kitchen sink, shamanistic, "I practice everything spiritual" approach have a 100% failure rate and you always will. It's not your fault. What you are chasing doesn't exist and never has in Budo and yields nothing of practical value in Budo.

Now...
Past producing physical results? Pick your poison. "Spirituality" is a never-never land of real and actual experiences as well as hocus pocus people convinced themselves was real. People have been uplifted, enlightened, grown, been had and conned... and have also argued and fought over religion as long as people have existed.

Fortunately, what people in Budo went looking and hoping for that produces real power and a change in them both physically and perhaps spiritually actually does exist. You just have to know where to find it....and that, is a good thing for many people

Dan

graham christian
06-26-2012, 11:49 AM
I read all four parts of the aikido journal article and didn't find the incident you mentioned above. I did find, at the end of part 3, where he mentioned O'sensei's incident though. He did have a lot of interesting things to say about ki and some of the other interpretations of it out there though. You should reread it yourself, great stuff. Also, there are the other examples from his book that were quite clearly not spiritual exercises, but physical ones. If you want to say that stuff is spiritual for you, fine, go for it, but don't go off saying that his stuff was because he seems to have gone to pretty great lengths to leave that out of what he was doing.

You didn't find it? Funny how many can't see when it suits.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-26-2012, 11:53 AM
Dear Graham,
My old great granddad fought in France in the first World War.He sustained injuries to his stomach area.Now lots of soldiers have been in battle and had bullets flying around them.Thats expected when some guy is trying to knock you off.The enemy is not firing custard pies at his enemy.So Graham , my old great granddad had the same experiences, so does this make himin effect the same as Tohei Sensei?I think not.Your logic is flawed.All that Tohei Sensei said was he in effect had a clear mind.Try as others have suggested and give more relevant facts/documentation to support your theories.Cheers, Joe.

Joe, try reading it and listening to his own experience. Try relating it to the subject he was asked about which led him to come up with that incident. Try putting them together to actually get the concept of what he was saying.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-26-2012, 12:21 PM
I am not familar with any such event in Tohei's life and a googling of "tohei dodging bullets" only provides me with Ueshiba's story, not Tohei's. So please, provide citations to support what you said. I will readily admit that I made a mistake.

Maybe not everyone, just the ones who question and disagree with you?

How did you originally come to formulate kiatsu?

I had already realized the reality of “mind,” but it was during my experience on the battlefield during the war that I was able to physically confirm this. With bullets flying all around, my life energy became vigorous and I could drink muddy water without developing stomach problems. But, as soon as I returned to a relatively safer area, my mind relaxed and I became ill. This showed me the importance of one’s state of mind.
Think you'll find bullets in there. He was relating the incident in response to the question on how he formulated Kiatsu. Relating it to the universal life energy and the effect of it, the magical effect of it. Then the different effect when it wasn't active in the same way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This follows paragraphs explaining the universal Ki and how he managed to throw sumo wrestler using Ki. It also follows explaining how it's the reason he called it shin shin toitsu to show it's not to do with physical fighting.

Plus he explains how body and mind are mere clothing in comparison. He goes on to say therefor making Ki stronger is the thing to do not the clothes.

Funny how I know these things and the effect it has on those who don't. They go on to say it means I am saying they don't know. :rolleyes:

Peace,G.

graham christian
06-26-2012, 12:39 PM
I am with you on this - When I think of Tohei and his stuff, spiritual just does not come into mind - ki is what Tohei was all about and Ki is not a spiritual thing; it is simply an energy that bridges the mental to the physical.

Greg

I'm glad you explained that Greg. This explains to me why so many including I/P misunderstand. What a great big fundamental misunderstanding.

No wonder many see spiritual as "something else" and even deny when they are doing spiritual and call it mental or 'just some energy'.

Treating Ki like some mechanical thing is a fine example of missing the point.

Peace.G.

DH
06-26-2012, 12:53 PM
Treating Ki like some mechanical thing is a fine example of missing the point.

Peace.G.
Redefining ki to fit your individual use is meaningless and so "new age" Western.
Many Japanese teachers...who have no power either.. discuss it just as freely. Sort of like they all talk about how to use a sword with little to no training of how to actually use one!! And westerners have no way of measuring or judging until they get a better education and realize that not some...but MOST Japanese teachers don't really have a clue about teaching sword and would never even try or ever be taken seriously back home. :rolleyes:

I say Ki is praying to bananas in seiza! There I said it.
And from now on I could go round the world hitting and throwing people....and then substantiate my skill by stating that I hit so hard and throw so well because I pray to bananas in seiza...and they should too.
I won't mention what I was really doing all these years.

Confusing Ueshiba's spiritual pursuits with his physical internal strength training is just as stupid.
Dan

graham christian
06-26-2012, 01:25 PM
Redefining ki to fit your individual use is meaningless and so "new age" Western.
Many Japanese teachers...who have no power either.. discuss it just as freely. Sort of like they all talk about how to use a sword with little to no training of how to actually use one!! And westerners have no way of measuring or judging until they get a better education and realize that not some...but MOST Japanese teachers don't really have a clue about teaching sword and would never even try or ever be taken seriously back home. :rolleyes:

I say Ki is praying to bananas in seiza! There I said it.
And from now on I could go round the world hitting and throwing people....and then substantiate my skill by stating that I hit so hard and throw so well because I pray to bananas in seiza...and they should too.
I won't mention what I was really doing all these years.

Confusing Ueshiba's spiritual pursuits with his physical internal strength training is just as stupid.
Dan

Nice clothes Dan. Maybe you should start a thread called physical Aikido;)

Peace.G.

sakumeikan
06-26-2012, 01:35 PM
Good grief
This is a whole lot of.... nothing useful. Nor will it accomplish anything in Aikido.

Discussions of beliefs; I believe, she believes, I feel...he thinks...etc., have produced the same delightful meanderings as Joe Currans comments. Listen, blending every term and item you could think of; Chinese/Indian concepts of Yin Yang /In Jo /Ki /Prana/ ascetic practices/Misogi/ and add in Grahams wanderings/wonderings of chakras producing power will add up to the production of exactly..........nothing.

Neither will such stellar teaching advice as:
"Move insides"
"Just relax"
"Make connect"
"Make a four legged animal"
"See? Absorb....take in."
"Make correct feeling"
"Move from center"

There are very real methods and means to use the mind to produce physical results that seem otherworldy and weird, almost inexplicable. The asian knew this and codified many of these models and had teachings with catch phrases. the same phrases that Ueshiba was using. Those of us who know what moves what, what ki was and how to manipulate and strengthen it and how to train in the existing Asian model that Ueshiba was quoting over and over...to ACTUALLY CONNECT THE BODY, then connect to force coming in....will forever dominate those pursuing only the spiritual path...
Ueshiba knew this all to well and his spiritual pursuit NEVER produced the power you are all hoping for. It was his pursuit of the classic internal strength model that produced the aiki everyone is shooting for. Your lack of understanding of this simple fact does nothing to strengthen any case or belief to the contrary. Ignorance of these simple facts, is not a good foundation for an argument.
For those who pursue the correct model, as Ueshiba did? We will control you...take your center...defeat you...force you to harmonize with us...and we will be the center and focus of every engagement that takes place.
Why?
The spiritual only model simply cannot produce the results the real Asian model of internal strength that Ueshiba pursued, can.
Why?
Because that spiritual only model never existed on the earth in Budo and it never will. You do not know what you are talking about when it comes to the source of power in the Asian arts.....and that really is all there is to it.

Don't agree? Step on mat in front of witnesses!
It is happening around the world and those of you who only follow this nebulous, kitchen sink, shamanistic, "I practice everything spiritual" approach have a 100% failure rate and you always will. It's not your fault. What you are chasing doesn't exist and never has in Budo and yields nothing of practical value in Budo.

Now...
Past producing physical results? Pick your poison. "Spirituality" is a never-never land of real and actual experiences as well as hocus pocus people convinced themselves was real. People have been uplifted, enlightened, grown, been had and conned... and have also argued and fought over religion as long as people have existed.

Fortunately, what people in Budo went looking and hoping for that produces real power and a change in them both physically and perhaps spiritually actually does exist. You just have to know where to find it....and that, is a good thing for many people

Dan
Dear Dan,
I just love meandering.Passes the time of day before I read your stuff.At least I keep my meanderings short , more than I can say for you.Tell me Dan, have you ever been at Za Zen training or practiced Misogi?Its no picnic. Well I am off to meander in the direction of my fridge, get a cold beer and sit with my feet up.Have a nice. Cheers, Joe.

graham christian
06-26-2012, 01:56 PM
Spiritual produces strong mind and strong body. So many I have met over the years doing spiritual practices and martial arts who just won't let go of physical thinking and thus see themselves in the future as some kind of superman. S on the chest et. al.

Stuck in physical, stuck in identity, stuck in bravado. Stuck.

I saw a nice quote recently, "I am not a human enjoying a spiritual experience, I am a spirit enjoying the human experience"

Peace.G.

gregstec
06-26-2012, 01:57 PM
I'm glad you explained that Greg. This explains to me why so many including I/P misunderstand. What a great big fundamental misunderstanding.

No wonder many see spiritual as "something else" and even deny when they are doing spiritual and call it mental or 'just some energy'.

Treating Ki like some mechanical thing is a fine example of missing the point.

Peace.G.

I see Ki as Tohei did - it is universal and it is in all things and it is not a magical thing; it is simply another form of energy existing at a level not yet discernible in the electromagnetic spectrum - however, that does not mean we can not see the results of its existence in the things it interacts with on a physical level. If anyone wants to explain away a physical science they cannot understand by applying a spiritual or mystic tag to it, then feel free to do so - just don't expect others that may have more experience in that area to agree with you.

Greg

Alister Gillies
06-26-2012, 01:59 PM
I see it this way. Spiritual form love to light to spirit et.al all work together in the true nature of things thus they all welcome, support, invite , 'hug' each other.

The mind however produces many fears and negatives Including the concept of death. Being attatched to such ways of thinking we may feel it's good to hug death but to me that's mental not spiritual.

An interesting thought I offer you:

I said earlier that in the way I do Aikido it goes spirit-mind-body. In that order and indeed I would say that order of importance and that order of magnitude.

Now for those who believe in a different order then this is what generally happens. They have the mind leading the spirit. Thus they have the spirit doing negatively according to the minds instructions and thus against it's true nature. Thus ego rules.

Peace.G.

Mind, body and spirit represent a trinity. One is not in service of the other or subservient in any way. Hierarchies are of the intellectual mind, not the unified mind. The connection between mind/body/spirit is symbolised by the circle, triangle and square. Emptiness and fullness coexist in mutuality, not as juxtaposition. People are free to believe what they want in the way I do Aikido, but they need to be careful about what they practice - the two are not necessarily the same.

gregstec
06-26-2012, 02:08 PM
Spiritual produces strong mind and strong body. So many I have met over the years doing spiritual practices and martial arts who just won't let go of physical thinking and thus see themselves in the future as some kind of superman. S on the chest et. al.

Stuck in physical, stuck in identity, stuck in bravado. Stuck.

I saw a nice quote recently, "I am not a human enjoying a spiritual experience, I am a spirit enjoying the human experience"

Peace.G.

Why do you say that all we do is physical? what we do is very mental and a coordinated mind and body is essential to the success of developing internal power/strength. However, we just don't see the mental as a spiritual thing - mind and body naturally is one; however, the external arts focused on the body and lost touch with the mental - internal arts bring them back together as one - but IMO, that is not a spiritual thing, just a natural thing.

Greg

graham christian
06-26-2012, 02:09 PM
Probably poor form to quote the wiki but..

The real birth of Aikido came as the result of three instances of spiritual awakening that Ueshiba experienced. The first happened in 1925, after Ueshiba had defeated a naval officer's bokken (wooden katana) attacks unarmed and without hurting the officer. Ueshiba then walked to his garden and had a spiritual awakening.

Onisaburo Deguchi
... I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.
At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love - the spirit of loving protection for all beings ...
Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.[12]

His second experience occurred in 1940 when,
"Around 2am as I was performing misogi, I suddenly forgot all the martial techniques I had ever learned. The techniques of my teachers appeared completely new. Now they were vehicles for the cultivation of life, knowledge, and virtue, not devices to throw people with."[citation needed]

His third experience was in 1942 during the worst fighting of WWII, Ueshiba had a vision of the "Great Spirit of Peace".[2]
"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love.

..I'm still wondering how one can really have any kind of spiritual practice without some sort of enlightenment or awakening. Shouldn't the focus be on finding these experiences instead of copying the movements of those who got hit by the spiritual anvil? If not, aren't we just putting on our Air Jordan's and trying to pretend we're in the NBA?

As some frequently point out, the non-cooperative opponent is a necessity. Obviously, if someone's "stuff" only works against cooperative opponents or those of a lesser physical stature, the value of that "stuff" is dubious. Similarly, if a spiritual practice is merely a copy of someone else's tradition or collection of aphorisms, can it really be spiritual?

In the same way that martial effectiveness is validated by success against a non-cooperative opponent, isn't spiritual veracity proven through a genuine transformational experience?

That's pretty straightforward and obvious Tom I would say.

I would say though that when you look and find certain ways of training then look for the why rather than for the negative. As I have said before it's easy to be negative and that is the way of the lazy mind.

Take co-operative training or even coercive. Don't believe the dogma of not martial or effective for that is trolled out non-stop by those who don't know the why of each of the above. You see there are reasons for things and there are really good reasons as to why they come about in the first place. It's understanding those reasons and training according to strict rules of those which bring about progress. To dismiss one type of training, which actually should be looked at as one type of drill, thus would be cutting out from your yourself part of what you are trying to achieve.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-26-2012, 02:20 PM
Mind, body and spirit represent a trinity. One is not in service of the other or subservient in any way. Hierarchies are of the intellectual mind, not the unified mind. The connection between mind/body/spirit is symbolised by the circle, triangle and square. Emptiness and fullness coexist in mutuality, not as juxtaposition. People are free to believe what they want in the way I do Aikido, but they need to be careful about what they practice - the two are not necessarily the same.

Such is your belief and such is the way it is looked at by the more 'physical orientated' experts.

What one believes and the practice ultimately should be the same. People are not allowed to believe one thing and practice another in my dojo. They may start off that way obviously but the goal is applying the same in life as on the mat.

Unified mind? Mind is mind, body is body. Spirit is spirit. You can have all three working in harmony.

Believing they are equal in import or cause is a fallacy and the main reason for misunderstanding I would say.

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland
06-26-2012, 02:32 PM
I see Ki as Tohei did - it is universal and it is in all things and it is not a magical thing; it is simply another form of energy existing at a level not yet discernible in the electromagnetic spectrum - however, that does not mean we can not see the results of its existence in the things it interacts with on a physical level. If anyone wants to explain away a physical science they cannot understand by applying a spiritual or mystic tag to it, then feel free to do so - just don't expect others that may have more experience in that area to agree with you.

Greg
I don't need anyone to agree with me. Maybe those that have less experience will see differently as they continue to train. The art reveals it's secrets through dedicated training. There are no shortcuts.

Mary Eastland
06-26-2012, 02:40 PM
I find my Aikido training useful in life. When things gets hard I can relate the principles I have learned in Aikido to my life. I don't try to control circumstances. I don't try to force solutions. I accept what is and move on. I let my life unfold. I am not interested in having power over others, in winning or being the strongest in the land.

Alister Gillies
06-26-2012, 02:44 PM
Your comment is not very cogent, simply a reiteration of a dogmatic position with an added assumption about my orientation - you are not in a position to know my background. A fair reflection of the the more 'opinionated' variety of expert. There is no such thing as self-conscious virtue, except in your obviously 'spiritual' case. You might reflect that genuinely spiritual individuals may feel some embarrassment at your immature assertions, and they are keeping quiet. I intend to follow their example. Best of luck.

Marc Abrams
06-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Your comment is not very cogent, simply a reiteration of a dogmatic position with an added assumption about my orientation - you are not in a position to know my background. A fair reflection of the the more 'opinionated' variety of expert. There is no such thing as self-conscious virtue, except in your obviously 'spiritual' case. You might reflect that genuinely spiritual individuals may feel some embarrassment at your immature assertions, and they are keeping quiet. I intend to follow their example. Best of luck.

Alister:

As I posted earlier, Graham is unwilling or unable to be "unbalanced" from his positions, beliefs and ideas. Unfortunately, his "balanced" position is little more than the dynamic equilibrium created with one side composed of an genuine ignorance of facts and empirically-validated information, while the other side is composed of a deluded arrogance as to the correctness of his position. The resulting "balance" is quite the site to behold.....:freaky:

Regards,

marc abrams

Alister Gillies
06-26-2012, 03:05 PM
:) Thanks Marc - I skipped some of it and missed that post.

RonRagusa
06-26-2012, 03:08 PM
I see Ki as Tohei did - it is universal and it is in all things and it is not a magical thing; it is simply another form of energy existing at a level not yet discernible in the electromagnetic spectrum - however, that does not mean we can not see the results of its existence in the things it interacts with on a physical level. If anyone wants to explain away a physical science they cannot understand by applying a spiritual or mystic tag to it, then feel free to do so - just don't expect others that may have more experience in that area to agree with you.

Greg

That's interesting Greg. You are accepting the existence of Ki as a matter of faith which is itself rather spiritual. I say this because the only evidence you have for the existence of Ki is its effect on "the things it interacts with on a physical level". You cannot use the effect a thing has on other things to prove the existence of the thing itself. That's like saying the expansion of the universe is accelerating which I can only explain by postulating the existence of dark energy; therefore dark energy must exist because the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

So while you can postulate the existence of a form of energy called Ki and use it to explain the occurrence of certain physical phenomena; Ki remains a theoretical construct, like the Higg's boson, until it is actually observed, measured and otherwise scientifically characterized.

Ron

gregstec
06-26-2012, 03:15 PM
I don't need anyone to agree with me. Maybe those that have less experience will see differently as they continue to train. The art reveals it's secrets through dedicated training. There are no shortcuts.

I was not speaking to you in that post, but if you want to align yourself with Graham on those points, fine by me - I do not have any mission in life to convert anyone to anything, I am just sharing my views for those that may have an interest :)

Greg

ChrisMoses
06-26-2012, 03:19 PM
Ki is praying to bananas in seiza!
[snip]
Dan

This is a job for custom T-Shirts!!!

:D

graham christian
06-26-2012, 03:21 PM
Why do you say that all we do is physical? what we do is very mental and a coordinated mind and body is essential to the success of developing internal power/strength. However, we just don't see the mental as a spiritual thing - mind and body naturally is one; however, the external arts focused on the body and lost touch with the mental - internal arts bring them back together as one - but IMO, that is not a spiritual thing, just a natural thing.

Greg

There are three things Greg, spiritual, mental, physical.

Many are very focussed on physical only I think you'll agree. Along comes a coach (in sport) or I/P and shows there is another dimention and that comes under mental. So there you are.

Now you learn mental things and techniques and practices to enhance the physical and work with the physical. Mind and body.

Now, those who were so only into physical were always aware that mentality was there but of no import was their consideration or else it was something that was not of their volition or control.

Just something that connects you to the physical. Sound familiar?

Now you do it you call it natural. Mind and body working as one is obviously more powerful than not, that's a no brainer. Internal arts generally focus on these two and thus develope theories based on them. But like the physical guy I mentioned above they can't deny there is another factor, just like he couldn't deny he had a mentality, and like him they put this third factor down as just a this or just a that.

Now, to your original question, why do I say that all you do is physical?

Well firstly that physical guy mentioned above would be looking at things so. Then we come to the way 'you' perceive things. Those into the mental side of things tend to approach things differently to the other wouldn't you say? Their whole approach becomes different. The down side is that where I may say one person is very physical and some may say such charachters in life are ignorant, etc whilst the ones into mind are more academic, into data, data, data, intellectual. Thus I could say many are robots, like living machines or walking libraries/ Funny thing is a lot of these charachters are very unstable when it comes to martial arts. Theyre too busy thinking. I'm sure you've met many such.

Person 'A' I would say is "being" a body. Person "B" I would say is "BEING" a mind.

Now, a person unifying the two as you talk about is to me doing much better and feeling much better in themselves than the other two.

It is well known that the 'power' of the mind is greater than the body. So I call this looking at mind and body as equal in regards to affecting or effecting each other as nonsense. Psycho somatic illness should tell you something here. Mind affecting the body.

My first question to you would be if you are coordinating mind and body then what are you?

But back to your question. Spiritually I can get people to look at things, to look at mental things and physical things. I can get people to look and that is not with physical eyes. Now when it comes to creating or looking then many cannot but translate such as physical things. So I could give you a mental exercise right now which shows how you are seeing things physically even via the mind. Thus I say still stuck in physical. If it doesn't relate to what you have seen physically or according to the physical mechanical laws you are used to then you will have a hard time creating or doing or even mentally having something happen.

Anything not physical is what? What is the difference between mental and spiritual? The not knowing is the reason that such spiritual sayings and indeed principles are translated mentally and thus misunderstood. From looking at things physical and mental then any spiritual you can only call mental and thus never really understand the difference.

In fact you can have budo mind conditions, well documented, yet they actually equal, like zen, 'no mind' type conditions. No thinking, no plotting, no remembering, no history, no mind. They are spiritual and body conditions. Universal.

So mind and body is one thing but spiritual people who have realized the "reality" of mind then enter a new phase. A 'ueshiba' phase and no longer that 'old' mind and body internal thing.

That is now seen as very physical.

Peace.G.

gregstec
06-26-2012, 03:25 PM
That's interesting Greg. You are accepting the existence of Ki as a matter of faith which is itself rather spiritual. I say this because the only evidence you have for the existence of Ki is its effect on "the things it interacts with on a physical level". You cannot use the effect a thing has on other things to prove the existence of the thing itself. That's like saying the expansion of the universe is accelerating which I can only explain by postulating the existence of dark energy; therefore dark energy must exist because the expansion of the universe is accelerating.


I believe that is exactly how scientists have explained the existence of black holes - since nothing can escape the gravitational pull of a black hole, no actual physical evidence can be obtained of their existence, but by looking at physical effects of things around them, you get secondary evidence. Also, can you see wind? no, but you feel its effects on you and see its effects on other things.

So while you can postulate the existence of a form of energy called Ki and use it to explain the occurrence of certain physical phenomena; Ki remains a theoretical construct, like the Higg's boson, until it is actually observed, measured and otherwise scientifically characterized.

Ron

Actually , I can feel ki and and I can control it in my body; therefore, to me, I have evidence of ki.

Greg

graham christian
06-26-2012, 03:37 PM
I see Ki as Tohei did - it is universal and it is in all things and it is not a magical thing; it is simply another form of energy existing at a level not yet discernible in the electromagnetic spectrum - however, that does not mean we can not see the results of its existence in the things it interacts with on a physical level. If anyone wants to explain away a physical science they cannot understand by applying a spiritual or mystic tag to it, then feel free to do so - just don't expect others that may have more experience in that area to agree with you.

Greg

I thought you said it couldn't be measured, not discernable in the electromagnetic spectrum. So how is that a physical science?

You say you see it as Tohei did. So you can see it? You can perceive it? Now is that with your eyes? Your ears? Do you taste it? Mmmmm. Which perception or sense are you using?

Peace.G.

gregstec
06-26-2012, 03:43 PM
There are three things Greg, spiritual, mental, physical.

Many are very focussed on physical only I think you'll agree. Along comes a coach (in sport) or I/P and shows there is another dimention and that comes under mental. So there you are.

Now you learn mental things and techniques and practices to enhance the physical and work with the physical. Mind and body.

Now, those who were so only into physical were always aware that mentality was there but of no import was their consideration or else it was something that was not of their volition or control.

Just something that connects you to the physical. Sound familiar?

Now you do it you call it natural. Mind and body working as one is obviously more powerful than not, that's a no brainer. Internal arts generally focus on these two and thus develope theories based on them. But like the physical guy I mentioned above they can't deny there is another factor, just like he couldn't deny he had a mentality, and like him they put this third factor down as just a this or just a that.

Now, to your original question, why do I say that all you do is physical?

Well firstly that physical guy mentioned above would be looking at things so. Then we come to the way 'you' perceive things. Those into the mental side of things tend to approach things differently to the other wouldn't you say? Their whole approach becomes different. The down side is that where I may say one person is very physical and some may say such charachters in life are ignorant, etc whilst the ones into mind are more academic, into data, data, data, intellectual. Thus I could say many are robots, like living machines or walking libraries/ Funny thing is a lot of these charachters are very unstable when it comes to martial arts. Theyre too busy thinking. I'm sure you've met many such.

Person 'A' I would say is "being" a body. Person "B" I would say is "BEING" a mind.

Now, a person unifying the two as you talk about is to me doing much better and feeling much better in themselves than the other two.

It is well known that the 'power' of the mind is greater than the body. So I call this looking at mind and body as equal in regards to affecting or effecting each other as nonsense. Psycho somatic illness should tell you something here. Mind affecting the body.

My first question to you would be if you are coordinating mind and body then what are you?

But back to your question. Spiritually I can get people to look at things, to look at mental things and physical things. I can get people to look and that is not with physical eyes. Now when it comes to creating or looking then many cannot but translate such as physical things. So I could give you a mental exercise right now which shows how you are seeing things physically even via the mind. Thus I say still stuck in physical. If it doesn't relate to what you have seen physically or according to the physical mechanical laws you are used to then you will have a hard time creating or doing or even mentally having something happen.

Anything not physical is what? What is the difference between mental and spiritual? The not knowing is the reason that such spiritual sayings and indeed principles are translated mentally and thus misunderstood. From looking at things physical and mental then any spiritual you can only call mental and thus never really understand the difference.

In fact you can have budo mind conditions, well documented, yet they actually equal, like zen, 'no mind' type conditions. No thinking, no plotting, no remembering, no history, no mind. They are spiritual and body conditions. Universal.

So mind and body is one thing but spiritual people who have realized the "reality" of mind then enter a new phase. A 'ueshiba' phase and no longer that 'old' mind and body internal thing.

That is now seen as very physical.

Peace.G.

In a convoluted way, I actually was able to follow your logic somewhat. Granted, there is also the spiritual domain, and I see a strong spirit in conjunction with a coordinated mind and body being superior to a weak spirit and coordinated mind and body, but the spirit alone will not provide for effective development of IS/IP - Actually, those of us following Dan's methods are very spiritual in our own ways; we have to be in order to have the wisdom to recognize the importance of this knowledge and to generate the committed motivation to obtain those skills :)

Greg

gregstec
06-26-2012, 03:48 PM
I thought you said it couldn't be measured, not discernable in the electromagnetic spectrum. So how is that a physical science?

You say you see it as Tohei did. So you can see it? You can perceive it? Now is that with your eyes? Your ears? Do you taste it? Mmmmm. Which perception or sense are you using?

Peace.G.

You know exactly what I am saying here - don't bother with your normal cute little twist of words; I am not biting.....:cool:

Greg

graham christian
06-26-2012, 03:51 PM
In a convoluted way, I actually was able to follow your logic somewhat. Granted, there is also the spiritual domain, and I see a strong spirit in conjunction with a coordinated mind and body being superior to a weak spirit and coordinated mind and body, but the spirit alone will not provide for effective development of IS/IP - Actually, those of us following Dan's methods are very spiritual in our own ways; we have to be in order to have the wisdom to recognize the importance of this knowledge and to generate the committed motivation to obtain those skills :)

Greg

That's cool. I can see that. I actually agree with what you say there.

Strong spirit actually transcends I/P though That doesn't mean it's off on it's own though it means it now produces unification in alignment with the fundamentals of the universe.

Peace.G.

Marc Abrams
06-26-2012, 03:59 PM
In a convoluted way, I actually was able to follow your logic somewhat. Granted, there is also the spiritual domain, and I see a strong spirit in conjunction with a coordinated mind and body being superior to a weak spirit and coordinated mind and body, but the spirit alone will not provide for effective development of IS/IP - Actually, those of us following Dan's methods are very spiritual in our own ways; we have to be in order to have the wisdom to recognize the importance of this knowledge and to generate the committed motivation to obtain those skills :)

Greg

Greg:

By almost understanding him, you will be awarded an honorary degree in psychology :D ! I hate to break it to people, but the distinction between "mind" & "body" is an artificial construct created by us humans. Boy would I like to see a mind without a functional attachment to a body. I have seen bodies that I have questioned any link to a useful mind..... Now "spirituality" is simply another construct that has a purpose designed to create some order & understanding for us lowly humans. This construct cannot be separated from "mind" anymore than a mind can exist separate from a body.

Now that the facts of life have been explained, how long does will this nonsense continue?

Regards,

marc abrams

RonRagusa
06-26-2012, 04:26 PM
I believe that is exactly how scientists have explained the existence of black holes - since nothing can escape the gravitational pull of a black hole, no actual physical evidence can be obtained of their existence, but by looking at physical effects of things around them, you get secondary evidence. Also, can you see wind? no, but you feel its effects on you and see its effects on other things.

Actually , I can feel ki and and I can control it in my body; therefore, to me, I have evidence of ki.

Greg

Scientists have used the evidence to infer the existence of black holes but black holes still remain a theoretical construct as far as science is concerned. And actual evidence can be obtained from the observation of Hawking radiation, if it exists as more than just a theory.

Wind on the other hand can be directly measured with regard to speed. The component molecules that make up air can be isolated and even viewed using a sufficiently powerful microscope. Wind can be created in the laboratory, it can be blocked, used to turn a windmill...

I have no doubt that you can and do use Ki and can feel it, and its absence when your mind and body are not coordinated. But that evidence is anecdotal if you insist that Ki is a form of electromagnetic energy. Perhaps your feelings and physical prowess with mind and body coordinated can be explained as a very complex synergy of mental and physical processes heretofore unexplained and unobserved. If that's the case then KI as an all pervasive energy (like the old pre-relativity ether) is unnecessary and can be done away with altogether.

All I'm saying Greg is that your belief that Ki exists as energy independent of what you do to create it is as much an act of faith as scientific certainty.

Ron

graham christian
06-26-2012, 04:28 PM
Re Marc:Kinda validates what I said earlier. No wonder Ueshiba gets so badly misunderstood.:crazy:

Peace.G.

Hellis
06-26-2012, 04:32 PM
Greg:

By almost understanding him, you will be awarded an honorary degree in psychology :D !

Now that the facts of life have been explained, how long does will this nonsense continue?


It will continue as long as people keep feeding the OP :crazy:

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

graham christian
06-26-2012, 04:36 PM
It will continue as long as people keep feeding the OP :crazy:

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

You mean replying and communicating and adding. Surely this shouldn't happen of a forum.:confused:

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-26-2012, 04:38 PM
Dan, you said, "Ueshiba knew this all to well and his spiritual pursuit NEVER produced the power you are all hoping for."

1. You frame the argument as if the only thing being discussed is power.
2. You make the argument as an either/or proposition.

While I accept the reality of what you have, I assent to neither of these two presuppositions.

My Aiki informs my connection with the earth and the mutual respect of all of life. It also provides a strategy (not just a tactic or technique) for confronting bigger and more aggressive opponents.

It also transcends physical ability and empowers my shamanic consciousness (manifestation).

This appears to be our great disconnect. I heard from my buddy that I have been bypassed as an attendee at the Orange county seminar. Just as well, this disconnect seems to be a issue to you.

Be well,

Chris

graham christian
06-26-2012, 05:08 PM
Hi Everyone.
I think this thread has been quite good actually so far. It has drawn people to express and clarify their different perspectives and their different reasoning's they use too. Opened up a few fundamental differences and not been too crazy on the whole.

Respect to you all.

Peace.G.

Marc Abrams
06-26-2012, 05:22 PM
Re Marc:Kinda validates what I said earlier. No wonder Ueshiba gets so badly misunderstood.:crazy:

Peace.G.

Graham:

You must be referring to yourself. I acknowledge that I do not speak Japanese well or read Japanese. I recognize that I was not educated in the paradigm that O'Sensei was educated in. I am wise enough to recognize areas of my ignorance so that I can seek knowledge by exploring the areas that I do not know. I seek out the foundations of other pedagogs. I read, listen to and train with those with greater knowledge and skills than my own. I evaluate ideas and opinions based upon the best research and available knowledge. You, on the other hand, seem to discount all of those avenues available toward expanding your knowledge base. Your basis for understanding is based upon skewed and limited information (misinformation also) and you interpret it through your own skewed, preconceived notions. You express them as though they were based in some more established paradigms and demonstrate an astounding lack of knowledge when questioned about any real understanding of those paradigms. And you wonder why people view you residing out in left field?

Let's review what I now have called "The Golden Equilibrium" This refers to the dynamic equilibrium created with one side composed of an genuine ignorance of facts and empirically-validated information, while the other side is composed of a deluded arrogance as to the correctness of your position. All that is necessary is for you to allow one side of the equation to get unbalanced and you might actually recognize that you are the one with a stunning lack of real understanding of O'Sensei, Tohei Sensei, etc. which can be observed in your writings and videos. Your attempts to frame it as though we are the one's who don't understand is simply juvenile and comical and do nothing to change the facts.

Marc Abrams

graham christian
06-26-2012, 05:31 PM
Graham:

You must be referring to yourself. I acknowledge that I do not speak Japanese well or read Japanese. I recognize that I was not educated in the paradigm that O'Sensei was educated in. I am wise enough to recognize areas of my ignorance so that I can seek knowledge by exploring the areas that I do not know. I seek out the foundations of other pedagogs. I read, listen to and train with those with greater knowledge and skills than my own. I evaluate ideas and opinions based upon the best research and available knowledge. You, on the other hand, seem to discount all of those avenues available toward expanding your knowledge base. Your basis for understanding is based upon skewed and limited information (misinformation also) and you interpret it through your own skewed, preconceived notions. You express them as though they were based in some more established paradigms and demonstrate an astounding lack of knowledge when questioned about any real understanding of those paradigms. And you wonder why people view you residing out in left field?

Let's review what I now have called "The Golden Equilibrium" This refers to the dynamic equilibrium created with one side composed of an genuine ignorance of facts and empirically-validated information, while the other side is composed of a deluded arrogance as to the correctness of your position. All that is necessary is for you to allow one side of the equation to get unbalanced and you might actually recognize that you are the one with a stunning lack of real understanding of O'Sensei, Tohei Sensei, etc. which can be observed in your writings and videos. Your attempts to frame it as though we are the one's who don't understand is simply juvenile and comical and do nothing to change the facts.

Marc Abrams

No. That's how you perceive me. You then proceed to tell me how and what I am. That's all. No more, no less.

Your golden equilibrium, your measuring stick and so limited it doesn't bear much comment from me.

So far all of your assumptions about me have been false so it can't be a very good system.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-26-2012, 05:43 PM
All life is a manifestation of the spirit, the manifestation of love. And the Art of Peace is the purest form of that principle. A warrior is charged with bringing a halt to all contention and strife. Universal love functions in many forms; each manifestation should be allowed free expression. The Art of Peace is true democracy. ~Morihei Ueshiba

Now that's more like it......

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-26-2012, 06:26 PM
Chris
If we are to find common ground we need to understand each other starting with what is the easiest to get to....".....how do you train your body to work as part of the whole?.....what kind of practices do you do to effect the body's functioning to do these things? How do you condition your body? Spirit and mind can be strong...weak body means nothing good happens. And you know that John has drills to help with this, that is what Dan is talking about at this stage is the body work, and that others are out there offering their approaches.

Graham likely has drills, solo training and partner training....other than just waza... to effect the conditioning... that is what I am asking.

Gary

Hi Gary,

I personally agree. Body work is necessary. if you want to have the BIG edge. And I doubt that Graham has anything like what Dan has as far as body work goes. What Graham has, and what I connected with him regarding, was a metaphorical approach to key strategies, tactics and techniques used in Aikido waza as it related to conducting his relationships in business and personal matters. We discussed ma-ai in a variety of usages and I was pleased to connect with him as another human being without all the other hooplah.

I am sure that many folks are thrilled to have climbed on board the internal body training practices. I am sure that when Dan confronted them with this skill, that they were humbled. I am sure that it took great depth of character to accept the fact that their previous training had something missing. I honor them for that choice.

Still, many old 19th century martial practicioners in Japan did not have the internal training. Still, their arts flourished and they defeated others in battle. Their path was still a valid Budo, wasn't it?.

Indeed, Yi Long (the kickboxking Shaolin Monk) was defeated by another fighter that did not show signs of the internal training but used a lion's heart and a disciplined skill set. So a Budo that requires the internal gung does not necessarily make the others null and void. It simply gives them a BIG edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWcvSSsWZaM&feature=related

and

If Ueshiba was so animate about everyone obtaining the skills he talked about (an aiki body) why didn't he teach the full system more openly?

It also appears that Ueshiba did have a deeply attuned relationship with nature and global peace as a practicioner of Oomoto. And he was surely courageous to support peace during a time when Japan was under attack. I can ressonate with this kind of courage as we now face troubles that are global in nature and few of us will be prepared to do so alone.

I suggest this should be a time that we use to help guide Budo and Aikido into a path that is inclusive constructive of all its practicioners. Let those who can do it become leaders that others follow rather than hammers trying to play "whack-a- mole".

To follow the path of cornering those who cannot see your point is a doomed one. Pandora's box was opened by Ueshiba himself. You cannot put all the folks who are training in Aikido sans the internal stuff back into the box. And to divide the art between the ones that have it againsrt the ones that do not is not going to make them vanish.

Be well,

Chris

Marc Abrams
06-26-2012, 06:36 PM
All life is a manifestation of the spirit, the manifestation of love. And the Art of Peace is the purest form of that principle. A warrior is charged with bringing a halt to all contention and strife. Universal love functions in many forms; each manifestation should be allowed free expression. The Art of Peace is true democracy. ~Morihei Ueshiba

Now that's more like it......

Peace.G.

Graham:

The last time that I used YOUR words to prove my point, you blew your mental cork and demonstrated how little depth you really have. I don't need to repeat that process again. Instead, Lets take this quote above:

1) List the exact Japanese that this interpretation comes from.
2) Describe the context of this "quote." Was it O'Sensei's direct writings? Was it it somebody writing down his words? Was it a verbal quote, electronically recorded? etc.
3) List the date and location in which this quote was taken?
4) What was the entirety of what was said and written?
5) Who translated the Japanese and when?

Without that information being taken into account, the Golden Equilibrium still applies.

Marc Abrams

sakumeikan
06-26-2012, 06:37 PM
Dear Jun,
I am appealing to you [not in a romantic way I hope]to throw me and others a life belt to get me rescued from this discussion.I am sinking like the Titanic under the weight of spiritual/philosophical/I/P/Is dialogue from Graham and others.Do us all a favour,CLOSE THE BLOG.
THIS BLOG IS LIKE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND CUTS.Worse than watching England against Italy at Euro 2012.Cheers, Joe

gregstec
06-26-2012, 06:48 PM
Scientists have used the evidence to infer the existence of black holes but black holes still remain a theoretical construct as far as science is concerned. And actual evidence can be obtained from the observation of Hawking radiation, if it exists as more than just a theory.

Wind on the other hand can be directly measured with regard to speed. The component molecules that make up air can be isolated and even viewed using a sufficiently powerful microscope. Wind can be created in the laboratory, it can be blocked, used to turn a windmill...

I have no doubt that you can and do use Ki and can feel it, and its absence when your mind and body are not coordinated. But that evidence is anecdotal if you insist that Ki is a form of electromagnetic energy. Perhaps your feelings and physical prowess with mind and body coordinated can be explained as a very complex synergy of mental and physical processes heretofore unexplained and unobserved. If that's the case then KI as an all pervasive energy (like the old pre-relativity ether) is unnecessary and can be done away with altogether.

All I'm saying Greg is that your belief that Ki exists as energy independent of what you do to create it is as much an act of faith as scientific certainty.

Ron

Ok, Ron, I can agree to that - all I am really trying to say is this is how I view ki and my concept of ki appears to fit other models of ki application as in TCM and budo very nicely - can I prove this is the way it is? absolutely not, but until someone can prove to me it is not this way, it works for how I apply ki very nicely. I have been playing around with this ki stuff for a long time ( mid 70s) like you have I am sure, and I keep coming back to this viewpoint, etc

Greg

Hellis
06-26-2012, 06:53 PM
Dear Jun,

THIS BLOG IS LIKE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND CUTS.Worse than watching England against Italy at Euro 2012.Cheers, Joe

England against Italy was like this thread, no matter what you say or do it is a no win situation.

This is when we need Tony's no nonsense comments to add some sense and cut through the bs.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`.
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Marc Abrams
06-26-2012, 07:12 PM
England against Italy was like this thread, no matter what you say or do it is a no win situation.

This is when we need Tony's no nonsense comments to add some sense and cut through the bs.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`.
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry & Joe:

Hope all is well for both of you guys! At least England and Italy got out there on the pitch and demonstrated action and not useless words like the original poster. This thread like others, ends up where they always seem to with him. The Golden Equilibrium exists because the glaring lack of integrity to put actions behind the words to get beyond a state of deluded arrogance.

Italy & England was a GREAT game to watch. I was actually rooting for England to win, particularly after the European Club tournament. Portugal & Germany in the finals will be an AWESOME match!

Regards from across the pond!

Marc Abrams

Gerardo Torres
06-26-2012, 07:29 PM
Italy & England was a GREAT game to watch.
I agree! I thoroughly enjoyed that match as both teams fought hard and honestly. I was rooting for England as well, and I thought they had some brilliant attacking moments (which they unfortunately wasted). I like Germany's football as well. And as much as I like highly technical football, Spain's games are a zzzZZZZZZ-zzzZZ-zzzz :hypno:

Gary David
06-26-2012, 08:04 PM
To follow the path of cornering those who cannot see your point is a doomed one. Pandora's box was opened by Ueshiba himself. You cannot put all the folks who are training in Aikido sans the internal stuff back into the box. And to divide the art between the ones that have it againsrt the ones that do not is not going to make them vanish.

Be well,

Chris

Chris
You are painting me into corners again. Personally....I don't care what Graham does or how he does it...he is going to do it anyhow..... I don't have to be concerned about how effective his approach is or will it even work..... it is not my issue. As for Dan, he is only providing internal work that offers the possibility of finding ways of improving how the body supports the rest of total whole....mind and spirit. And I am not trying to corner anyone.........aaahhhhh enough of this....leave me out of the mix.........

Gary

George S. Ledyard
06-26-2012, 08:41 PM
Strong spirit actually transcends I/P though
Peace.G.

I'm sorry... this is completely impossible to ignore... try as I might. It sounds just like the French at the beginning of WWI believing that Úlan was what made the French warrior superior. 1.4 million deaths later... The only way you can possibly believe stuff like this is by not getting out... It's like listening to someone talk who is living in an alternative universe...

graham christian
06-26-2012, 08:41 PM
Graham:

The last time that I used YOUR words to prove my point, you blew your mental cork and demonstrated how little depth you really have. I don't need to repeat that process again. Instead, Lets take this quote above:

1) List the exact Japanese that this interpretation comes from.
2) Describe the context of this "quote." Was it O'Sensei's direct writings? Was it it somebody writing down his words? Was it a verbal quote, electronically recorded? etc.
3) List the date and location in which this quote was taken?
4) What was the entirety of what was said and written?
5) Who translated the Japanese and when?

Without that information being taken into account, the Golden Equilibrium still applies.

Marc Abrams

It applies for you yes. Limited. I understand it. I use it. I apply it. I demonstrate it. I'll leave you and your intellect to 'reason' it that way.

As I said, "That's more like it".

I don't think I blow mental corks though. Another false perception?

Peace.G.

George S. Ledyard
06-26-2012, 08:45 PM
Dear Jun,
I am appealing to you [not in a romantic way I hope]to throw me and others a life belt to get me rescued from this discussion.I am sinking like the Titanic under the weight of spiritual/philosophical/I/P/Is dialogue from Graham and others.Do us all a favour,CLOSE THE BLOG.
THIS BLOG IS LIKE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND CUTS.Worse than watching England against Italy at Euro 2012.Cheers, Joe

Joe... this thread actually reached out of my computer and dragged me in. I was helpless. I was over on Facebook minding my own business when a force possessed me and and I clicked on the link for this thread...

Do not resist, you will be assimilated. Jun cannot save you. No one can.