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Marc Abrams
06-26-2012, 08:48 PM
I'm sorry... this is completely impossible to ignore... try as I might. It sounds just like the French at the beginning of WWI believing that élan was what made the French warrior superior. 1.4 million deaths later... The only way you can possibly believe stuff like this is by not getting out... It's like listening to someone talk who is living in an alternative universe...

George:

In order to live in that alternative universe, you need to be able to maintain The Golden Equilibrium.

Let's review what I now have called "The Golden Equilibrium" This refers to the dynamic equilibrium created with one side composed of an genuine ignorance of facts and empirically-validated information, while the other side is composed of a deluded arrogance as to the correctness of your position.

Look forward to seeing you guys in August!

Marc Abrams

graham christian
06-26-2012, 09:05 PM
I'm sorry... this is completely impossible to ignore... try as I might. It sounds just like the French at the beginning of WWI believing that élan was what made the French warrior superior. 1.4 million deaths later... The only way you can possibly believe stuff like this is by not getting out... It's like listening to someone talk who is living in an alternative universe...

George.
To believe spirit transcends physical is not a new thing. What's the problem?

You find it impossible to ignore? Well it bears no relation to to frenc warrior belief as superiority although they may call Ki 'elan vitale'.

It's not about superiority. Certainly not about death. Maybe you believe body transcends spirit or some such.

I think you will find spiritual paths to enlightenment or satori are real. Never heard anyone say about a physical path to enlightenment or indeed a mental path to enlightenment or that it has anything to do with intellect.

Peace.G.

mathewjgano
06-27-2012, 01:07 AM
I think you will find spiritual paths to enlightenment or satori are real. Never heard anyone say about a physical path to enlightenment or indeed a mental path to enlightenment or that it has anything to do with intellect.

Peace.G.
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.

tombuchanan
06-27-2012, 04:00 AM
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.

Great comment. So if there's not a precise definition of spirit, how can we say what is "spiritual"?

Isn't this the same problem so often encountered with the the term "aiki"? If aiki is not well defined, how can we talk about aikido?

If we don't know what moonshine is, can we really make a still?

So what is spirit? And what is it's relation to aiki (assuming we know what that is)?

Chris Knight
06-27-2012, 05:31 AM
I personally agree. Body work is necessary. if you want to have the BIG edge. And I doubt that Graham has anything like what Dan has as far as body work goes. What Graham has, and what I connected with him regarding, was a metaphorical approach to key strategies, tactics and techniques used in Aikido waza as it related to conducting his relationships in business and personal matters. We discussed ma-ai in a variety of usages and I was pleased to connect with him as another human being without all the other hooplah.

I am sure that many folks are thrilled to have climbed on board the internal body training practices. I am sure that when Dan confronted them with this skill, that they were humbled. I am sure that it took great depth of character to accept the fact that their previous training had something missing. I honor them for that choice.

Still, many old 19th century martial practicioners in Japan did not have the internal training. Still, their arts flourished and they defeated others in battle. Their path was still a valid Budo, wasn't it?.

Indeed, Yi Long (the kickboxking Shaolin Monk) was defeated by another fighter that did not show signs of the internal training but used a lion's heart and a disciplined skill set. So a Budo that requires the internal gung does not necessarily make the others null and void. It simply gives them a BIG edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWcvS...eature=related

and

If Ueshiba was so animate about everyone obtaining the skills he talked about (an aiki body) why didn't he teach the full system more openly?

It also appears that Ueshiba did have a deeply attuned relationship with nature and global peace as a practicioner of Oomoto. And he was surely courageous to support peace during a time when Japan was under attack. I can ressonate with this kind of courage as we now face troubles that are global in nature and few of us will be prepared to do so alone.

I suggest this should be a time that we use to help guide Budo and Aikido into a path that is inclusive constructive of all its practicioners. Let those who can do it become leaders that others follow rather than hammers trying to play "whack-a- mole".

To follow the path of cornering those who cannot see your point is a doomed one. Pandora's box was opened by Ueshiba himself. You cannot put all the folks who are training in Aikido sans the internal stuff back into the box. And to divide the art between the ones that have it againsrt the ones that do not is not going to make them vanish.

In my opinion, and I'm sure I'll be corrected, internal strength is one of the main aims of our training, however aiki, is the instantaneous result upon joining/meeting/connecting to someone else. The dual spiral theorem is of utmost significance as well, and to develop this throughout the body led by intent, which results in aiki being created on contact. I believe the power is just a by-product of the connected body but without the spiral theory , it's almost useless in application.

From what I hear (and felt :eek: ) , this is tremendously potent

chillzATL
06-27-2012, 07:34 AM
It will continue as long as people keep feeding the OP :crazy:

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

This! Thank you Sir.

phitruong
06-27-2012, 08:08 AM
Great comment. So if there's not a precise definition of spirit, how can we say what is "spiritual"?


hit the nail right on the head. easterner definitions of spirit and spiritual are quite different. something just cannot translate. the different could even be about "feeling the word" vs "understanding the word". for example, understand the word "blue" vs feeling blue.

donhebert
06-27-2012, 08:27 AM
Joe... this thread actually reached out of my computer and dragged me in. I was helpless. I was over on Facebook minding my own business when a force possessed me and and I clicked on the link for this thread...

Do not resist, you will be assimilated. Jun cannot save you. No one can.

I swear the same thing happened to me, only in my case I was checking my email and the next thing I know I'm trying to wrench my myself from the keyboard by main force but to no avail.

This thread has developed a sort of mad cap epic quality - perhaps similar to a road runner cartoon. Or maybe like a Washington Irving story with Graham's Ichabod Crane confounding Dan's Brom Bones.

I must resist...

Don

Mary Eastland
06-27-2012, 08:48 AM
Jokes aside, The title "My Spiritual Aikido" is profound.

The solemn practice of any discipline can produce the same results. Aikido training ( as I see it) affords the practitioner the opportunity to learn self-defense and spiritual discipline.

Posting on AikiWeb offers the same opportunities. Ignoring my first impulse to save or protect, or to be sarcastic and mean requires constant vigilance. AikiWeb has taught me about tolerance and acceptance and letting others be in their own process. Then I get to learn about self- acceptance when I slip and write something that causes problems for others. I misunderstand so much of what is written and take offense. Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.

DH
06-27-2012, 08:55 AM
I swear the same thing happened to me, only in my case I was checking my email and the next thing I know I'm trying to wrench my myself from the keyboard by main force but to no avail.

This thread has developed a sort of mad cap epic quality - perhaps similar to a road runner cartoon. Or maybe like a Washington Irving story with Graham's Ichabod Crane confounding Dan's Brom Bones.

I must resist...

Don
Brom Bones????
Well...I did get an 18 year old Katie!!
I think the majority of the dialogue here has had nothing to do with me.
For my small part.. I never "really" talk to Graham. I use him as a springboard to further a narrative. I've never seen his rather unique assertions supported by him or anyone else. And his points are never even close to being factually correct as others have noted, so there is no foundation for a meaningful discussion. Talking "around" his outlandish ideas with the larger community is what we all usually do.

Dan

DH
06-27-2012, 08:58 AM
Jokes aside, The title "My Spiritual Aikido" is profound.

The solemn practice of any discipline can produce the same results. Aikido training ( as I see it) affords the practitioner the opportunity to learn self-defense and spiritual discipline.

Posting on AikiWeb offers the same opportunities. Ignoring my first impulse to save or protect, or to be sarcastic and mean requires constant vigilance. AikiWeb has taught me about tolerance and acceptance and letting others be in their own process. Then I get to learn about self- acceptance when I slip and write something that causes problems for others. I misunderstand so much of what is written and take offense. Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.
That's a fairly good assessment of things, Mary. I like the idea of the learning curve, tolerance and acceptance. I have actually learned quite a bit from my sojourn here on Aikiweb.
Dan

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 09:20 AM
Chris
You are painting me into corners again. Personally....I don't care what Graham does or how he does it...he is going to do it anyhow..... I don't have to be concerned about how effective his approach is or will it even work..... it is not my issue. As for Dan, he is only providing internal work that offers the possibility of finding ways of improving how the body supports the rest of total whole....mind and spirit. And I am not trying to corner anyone.........aaahhhhh enough of this....leave me out of the mix.........

Gary

Gary,

I sincerely mean no disrespect. In fact, I have presented myself WISIWIG; with logic coming from my own knowing and experience and within the context of the deiscussion. I believe I should give no less on a forum. Doing so respects all with whom I am speaking with. And I stand responsible for anything that I say.

gassho,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 09:23 AM
Jokes aside......anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.

I resemble that remark.
:eek: :eek:

Chris

Rob Watson
06-27-2012, 09:46 AM
Spirit is all one has left to fall back on when mind and body fail ...

gregstec
06-27-2012, 10:02 AM
I swear the same thing happened to me, only in my case I was checking my email and the next thing I know I'm trying to wrench my myself from the keyboard by main force but to no avail.

This thread has developed a sort of mad cap epic quality - perhaps similar to a road runner cartoon. Or maybe like a Washington Irving story with Graham's Ichabod Crane confounding Dan's Brom Bones.

I must resist...

Don

You need to establish a strong spiritual base in order to resist the dark forces at play in this thread - it won't be easy, but it can be done!

The absolutely wrong thing to do is to 'Put all joking aside' as Mary has said to do - that is a sure course of action that will guarantee your assimilation into the insanty of the universal :D

Greg

yugen
06-27-2012, 10:21 AM
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.

Ok, I'm not a forum poster, not even really involved in Aiki practice fully, but I did some Aikido years ago. I just read and enjoy and the "spirited" (full pun intended :D ) debate has been fun and amusing to read. Like George stated I've been assimilated! :)

I'm recollecting from 20 years ago when I was a student of philosophy and cultural anthro in religion, myth and magic and throwing in my opinion to boot... "Spirit" comes from the latin "spiritus" which means "breath", espiritus meaning "holy breath" - many scholars link the terminology from the gnostic traditions and a close bond with, what were at the time, the religious centers of Northern India and Iran (centers of the Mahayana, Varjayana & Tantric Buddhist traditions). Essentially that what is "spirit" is physical and its simple. The simple act of breathing is what is the divine (zen). Ego makes it a complex "out there" thing. If you stop breathing, your dead, that's it. But our ego takes our minds away with drifting musings and visions of religious grandeur and the mind becomes disconnected from the simple act of breathing, blah blah everyone knows the rest..

Take the practice further and you start getting into the simple act of breathing leading to yogic bodyworks. Yogic bodyworks leading to amazing controls of body functions from heart rate, core temperature, etc. Take those yogic type body works and apply them to muscular/skeletal functioning and application toward movement like martial arts and "spirit" that started as simple breathing becomes a deeper holistic body system. Hence you keep going more and more "internal" in the process.

I'm relatively new to IP/IS but have been working on the path. When I do "get it" occasionally and move someone (who isn't compliant) it is "magical or mystical" in a sense because I'm not at a level to fully understand how it works yet. But I believe if there is "enlightenment" it is a mind/body connection and the body stuff comes down to can you REALLY do it, i.e. perform your aiki on fully resisting non-choreographed opposition?

ok back to the shadows...

gates
06-27-2012, 10:23 AM
Graham et al,
This goes back up the thread a bit, but Tohei talks about his war experiences in the interview "The key to Ki" in the November 1977 issue of Black Belt magazine.
Regards,
Keith

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 10:32 AM
Spirit is all one has left to fall back on when mind and body fail ...

I couldn't agree more. Therefore, i interviewed one of my training buddies that has practiced (some with my direction) internal gung. He was a champion High School wrestler, Thai Boxer and Silat practicioner. He is a loveable guy that would not intentionally hurt a fly. He is happy to pound on concrete but intentionally changes his posture (bending forward) when he finally decides it is OK to strike me. He honestly does not want to hurt me. He also is unsure of his rheostat. Here is a guy that will walk into Tiger Village in Thailand, where the tigers have claws and are not drugged (at least they are fed), and still, he only want to find Taoist immortal alchemy.

Please be patient with the Iphone edited upload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSDDAnsyc7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNGHb5NhQ34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKsvb0io5GM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPccvGjVDok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKTwHTHYWeM

Rob doing push hands with a Tiger. :freaky:
1035

Namaste,

Chris

donhebert
06-27-2012, 10:50 AM
Jokes aside, The title "My Spiritual Aikido" is profound.

The solemn practice of any discipline can produce the same results. Aikido training ( as I see it) affords the practitioner the opportunity to learn self-defense and spiritual discipline.

Posting on AikiWeb offers the same opportunities. Ignoring my first impulse to save or protect, or to be sarcastic and mean requires constant vigilance. AikiWeb has taught me about tolerance and acceptance and letting others be in their own process. Then I get to learn about self- acceptance when I slip and write something that causes problems for others. I misunderstand so much of what is written and take offense. Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.

Hi Mary,

Good post. This thread has actually produced some worthwhile insights. However, these gems have tended to get mixed in, willy-nilly, with distracting personal remarks and hard-to-follow debates in ways that have been both entertaining and baffling. Nonetheless, the exploration of spirituality remain deeply important me and I would love to see us be able to deepen our experience of this in our practice in an authentic way. I am appreciating everyone's posts and I have learned a good deal more about what people are thinking.

Best Regards,

Don

yugen
06-27-2012, 11:08 AM
Ok, I'm not a forum poster, not even really involved in Aiki practice fully, but I did some Aikido years ago. I just read and enjoy and the "spirited" (full pun intended :D ) debate has been fun and amusing to read. Like George stated I've been assimilated! :)

I'm recollecting from 20 years ago when I was a student of philosophy and cultural anthro in religion, myth and magic and throwing in my opinion to boot... "Spirit" comes from the latin "spiritus" which means "breath", espiritus meaning "holy breath" - many scholars link the terminology from the gnostic traditions and a close bond with, what were at the time, the religious centers of Northern India and Iran (centers of the Mahayana, Varjayana & Tantric Buddhist traditions). Essentially that what is "spirit" is physical and its simple. The simple act of breathing is what is the divine (zen). Ego makes it a complex "out there" thing. If you stop breathing, your dead, that's it. But our ego takes our minds away with drifting musings and visions of religious grandeur and the mind becomes disconnected from the simple act of breathing, blah blah everyone knows the rest..

Take the practice further and you start getting into the simple act of breathing leading to yogic bodyworks. Yogic bodyworks leading to amazing controls of body functions from heart rate, core temperature, etc. Take those yogic type body works and apply them to muscular/skeletal functioning and application toward movement like martial arts and "spirit" that started as simple breathing becomes a deeper holistic body system. Hence you keep going more and more "internal" in the process.

I'm relatively new to IP/IS but have been working on the path. When I do "get it" occasionally and move someone (who isn't compliant) it is "magical or mystical" in a sense because I'm not at a level to fully understand how it works yet. But I believe if there is "enlightenment" it is a mind/body connection and the body stuff comes down to can you REALLY do it, i.e. perform your aiki on fully resisting non-choreographed opposition?

ok back to the shadows...

I should add that my post is also in response to the earlier post that "strong spirit transcends IP" ..

phitruong
06-27-2012, 11:10 AM
The absolutely wrong thing to do is to 'Put all joking aside' as Mary has said to do - that is a sure course of action that will guarantee your assimilation into the insanty of the universal :D

Greg

without joking, then you wouldn't have the phister and where would that get you! no humor, no joy, which against the teaching of Ueshiba The Senior. besides, one cannot discuss about spiritual stuffs without discussing why the chicken crossed the road. :D

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 11:12 AM
Ok, I'm not a forum poster, not even really involved in Aiki practice fully, but I did some Aikido years ago. I just read and enjoy and the "spirited" (full pun intended :D ) debate has been fun and amusing to read. Like George stated I've been assimilated! :)

I'm recollecting from 20 years ago when I was a student of philosophy and cultural anthro in religion, myth and magic and throwing in my opinion to boot... "Spirit" comes from the latin "spiritus" which means "breath", espiritus meaning "holy breath" - many scholars link the terminology from the gnostic traditions and a close bond with, what were at the time, the religious centers of Northern India and Iran (centers of the Mahayana, Varjayana & Tantric Buddhist traditions). Essentially that what is "spirit" is physical and its simple. The simple act of breathing is what is the divine (zen). Ego makes it a complex "out there" thing. If you stop breathing, your dead, that's it. But our ego takes our minds away with drifting musings and visions of religious grandeur and the mind becomes disconnected from the simple act of breathing, blah blah everyone knows the rest..

Take the practice further and you start getting into the simple act of breathing leading to yogic bodyworks. Yogic bodyworks leading to amazing controls of body functions from heart rate, core temperature, etc. Take those yogic type body works and apply them to muscular/skeletal functioning and application toward movement like martial arts and "spirit" that started as simple breathing becomes a deeper holistic body system. Hence you keep going more and more "internal" in the process.

I'm relatively new to IP/IS but have been working on the path. When I do "get it" occasionally and move someone (who isn't compliant) it is "magical or mystical" in a sense because I'm not at a level to fully understand how it works yet. But I believe if there is "enlightenment" it is a mind/body connection and the body stuff comes down to can you REALLY do it, i.e. perform your aiki on fully resisting non-choreographed opposition?

ok back to the shadows...

Personally, I wonder if much of this disconnect is more about the shift from an indigenous mind to a Post-Cartesian/Post Industrial mind. I recently went to see the movie The Raven. In one scene, Edgar Allen Poe is listening to a woman recite her recently written poem. She was honoring a bee that was bumbling about and called it a "honey-making thing". His retort was superb.

In today's world, herbs are reduced to their biochemical compounds, a person's life is often reduced to what he produces in the work place, Aiki is reduced to internal physical practices.

In a pre-industrial mind, perhaps in the mind of Deguchi Nao (1836–1918) and Deguchi Onisaburō (1871–1948), spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.

be well,

Chris

yugen
06-27-2012, 11:24 AM
Aiki is reduced to internal physical practices.

My point isn't reducing Aiki to internal practices. Actually I'm stating that the discussion of spiritual in Aiki is one and the same with IP practices.


spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.


exactly my point! spirit and flesh are not divided.. good quote, thanks!

Janet Rosen
06-27-2012, 11:41 AM
... Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.

That is an important life lesson right there....

Janet Rosen
06-27-2012, 11:50 AM
without joking, then you wouldn't have the phister and where would that get you! no humor, no joy, which against the teaching of Ueshiba The Senior. besides, one cannot discuss about spiritual stuffs without discussing why the chicken crossed the road. :D

Oh so many philosophical puzzles to ponder...

Without a road, what would the chicken cross? Does the road simply embody or reify the chicken's inherent need to traverse?

If you cross a road with a chicken, what do you get? If you cross a state line with a chicken, is it interstate commerce or a federal offense?

If the chicken crosses the road, is the road entitled to take revenge? Is that the aiki response?

Does this chicken make my butt look big?

graham christian
06-27-2012, 12:06 PM
Graham et al,
This goes back up the thread a bit, but Tohei talks about his war experiences in the interview "The key to Ki" in the November 1977 issue of Black Belt magazine.
Regards,
Keith

Hi Keith.
Yes, that's the one I quote. Jason owes an apology but........

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 12:21 PM
Oh so many philosophical puzzles to ponder...

Without a road, what would the chicken cross? Does the road simply embody or reify the chicken's inherent need to traverse?

If you cross a road with a chicken, what do you get? If you cross a state line with a chicken, is it interstate commerce or a federal offense?

If the chicken crosses the road, is the road entitled to take revenge? Is that the aiki response?

Does this chicken make my butt look big?

If you cross th road with a chicken in San Diego, CA, watch out. There is an ordinance called "losing your load". It was originally written to cite people moving chickens who didn't care where all the feathers flew and drifted about.

Arghhh

Chris

sakumeikan
06-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Dear Janet,
If you cross a road with a chicken , you may get funny looks.Try explaining how you and the chicken are just close friends.Same applies if you cross the state line, I would imagine that as long as the chicken was of the age of consent and consensual, the boys in blue would not send you to the slammer.Cheers, Joe.

graham christian
06-27-2012, 12:49 PM
SPIRIT.....There you are, something many of you haven't much reality on. Not surprising as you have been brought up not to.

Then there is SPIRITUAL. Once again I don't see many have too much reality on that either. Again, not surprising. Same reason.

Lots of confusions, lots of denials, lots of double standards, not surprising for the same reason.

We have on the one hand it being pointed out that a disembodied spirit is a ghost and yet that same person not relating that to himself for that would make him a spirit with a body.

Then we have the idea that it cannot be defined or separated as real of itself. Well of course it can and it can be demonstrated to be. Mental machinations trying to work out something based on body and mind thinking thus outside of many's modus operandi of reason.

Yet we have a man who created Aikido who emphasized it. Hence all the confusions on what he meant.

Then we come to Spiritual. Spiritual relates to that area which is not physical and which is not mental, yet physically and mentally you can feel the effects of it. Unfortunately most are only aware that they can feel the effects of the five physical senses. Then they are aware they can feel the effects from the mind. These two are well known. Yet not knowing you can also feel the effects of spiritual then those feelings are usually put down as something else, wrongly of course, but what else can someone do for they don't know the difference.

That area called spiritual contains more than just spirit and includes love, Ki, compassion, humility, stillness, life, soul, holiness, the void, centre of centre, spiritual space, yin and yang, harmony, etc. Universal truths. From which body and mind are created, manifested.

Those aware of this to various degrees tend to follow or get interested in spiritual things for they intuitively know it's to do with them, their true self, true nature and god and the universe.

Those unaware of this tend to deny it and thus we have the spiritual sayings like 'you can run but you are merely running away from your true self by so doing.

So we have an art built on spiritual principles, a lesson. A lesson in discovering your true self, a path.

Bit by bit peeling the onion, might make your eyes water. Those layers are mere clothing which are body and mind. Thus to get more 'power' people think of more muscle, more physical cause, more bombs, more tanks. More away from the truth. Nice clothes though.

Peace.G.

phitruong
06-27-2012, 01:00 PM
Dear Janet,
If you cross a road with a chicken , you may get funny looks.Try explaining how you and the chicken are just close friends.Same applies if you cross the state line, I would imagine that as long as the chicken was of the age of consent and consensual, the boys in blue would not send you to the slammer.Cheers, Joe.

what if you cross the road with a chicken and a duck? would that be ducking chicken or peeking duck?

morph4me
06-27-2012, 01:01 PM
Spiritual relates to that area which is not physical and which is not mental, yet physically and mentally you can feel the effects of it. Unfortunately most are only aware that they can feel the effects of the five physical senses. Then they are aware they can feel the effects from the mind. These two are well known. Yet not knowing you can also feel the effects of spiritual then those feelings are usually put down as something else, wrongly of course, but what else can someone do for they don't know the difference. Peace.G.

Almost sounds like Intent.

graham christian
06-27-2012, 01:02 PM
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.

No, no greek paths based on intellect. No gnostic paths based on physical and mental. All paths are based on spiritual.

Mystics or gnostics may call it esoteric knowledge. All religious mysticism is based on esoteric, spiritual truths. Different form of 'knowledge', not the intellectual logic form based on physical.

Peace.G..

graham christian
06-27-2012, 01:14 PM
Almost sounds like Intent.

Yes, intent is of the spirit, you. That's one facet.

Peace.G.

Janet Rosen
06-27-2012, 01:33 PM
what if you cross the road with a chicken and a duck? would that be ducking chicken or peeking duck?

Hmmm, a three way cross between a road, a chicken and a duck must involve consultation with the Triborough Bridge Authority. Meanwhile...
If you cross a road with a duck, waddle you get?
A viaduct.
Viaduct? Vi not a chicken?
Is there room for Marxist thought in a thread on spirituality?

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 01:46 PM
SPIRIT..... Unfortunately most are only aware that they can feel the effects of the five physical senses. Then they are aware they can feel the effects from the mind. These two are well known. Yet not knowing you can also feel the effects of spiritual then those feelings are usually put down as something else, wrongly of course, but what else can someone do for they don't know the difference.

Peace.G.

Hey Graham,
I am not sure that I am ready to adopt a belief that divides things as you have, though I have read all the works of Kubler Ross and Raymond Moody.

What I do know is that last night, both Delly (my partner) and I woke up thinking our house was being burglarized. Then we both instinctively knew it wasn't us. We find out, the celestial phone call was about our very good friend about a mile away. She attempted to stop a neighbor's house from being burgled and was assaulted and battered in the process. Luckily, she is ok today. Just bruises.

I understand that Takeda, Sokaku could know if there was a "bad intent" coming from someone on the other side of a wall. This skill was easy to develop in the barrios of Tijuana. And I even use it while riding my bicycle. I can "know" there is a driver who is not being attentive as far as 50 years behind me.

I am sure snipers know this skill. I had it when I was bushwhacking smugglers in the Border Patrol. When out on a desolate ranch at night, you have to blank out your sense of self or the smugglers will sense you.

Tecumseh had this skill developed very well. While organizing the Red Stick Confederation against the new U.S. Government, his attempts to persuade Big Warrior, principal chief of the Upper Creeks, had failed. In anger Tecumseh finally shouted at the old chief, “Your blood is white! . . . You do not believe the Great Spirit has sent me. You shall know. I leave Tuckhabatchee directly and shall go . . . to
Detroit. When I arrive there, I will stamp on the ground with my foot, and shake down every
house in Tuckhabatchee!” Two months later, the New madrid earthquakes began (December 1811 - February 1812.

see: see John Sugden, “Early Pan-Indianism: Tecumseh’s Tour of the Indian Country, 1811-1812,” American Indian Quarterly 10, no. 4 (Autumn 1986): 273-304.
and
http://www.davidwfletcher.com/resources/Tecumseh%20and%20the%20New%20Madrid%20Earthquakes.pdf

Wow, Little Monk Nupchen in an indian headress.

I believe that, when you see past the veil between heaven and earth, Aiki is everywhere and can be used even without the body.

Of course, even a study of this field can get over analyzed and subject to reductive experimentation.

Be well,

Chris

gregstec
06-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Hmmm, a three way cross between a road, a chicken and a duck must involve consultation with the Triborough Bridge Authority. Meanwhile...
If you cross a road with a duck, waddle you get?
A viaduct.
Viaduct? Vi not a chicken?
Is there room for Marxist thought in a thread on spirituality?

Karl or Groucho ? :)

Greg

mathewjgano
06-27-2012, 02:31 PM
I am not sure that I am ready to adopt a belief that divides things...
I try for this as well. Using words to describe things makes it hard to avoid though. I find myself bouncing back and forth between trying to connect the micro and macro ends of the spectrum; parts and whole. I suppose that's why there are so many descriptions of how we cannot describe the essential truth of reality.

I understand that Takeda, Sokaku could know if there was a "bad intent" coming from someone on the other side of a wall. This skill was easy to develop in the barrios of Tijuana. And I even use it while riding my bicycle. I can "know" there is a driver who is not being attentive as far as 50 years behind me.

Well, there's also something to be said of his apparent paranoia, although I can accept the possibility of such an intuition. He still made sure people entered buildings before him or tasted the very tea he himself brewed (albeit from others' tea leaves). I believe in working to develop intuition because I understand the brain processes so much more information than we are consciously aware of, but I also believe in tempering it with cold hard logic as much as possible.

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 02:54 PM
Well, there's also something to be said of his apparent paranoia, although I can accept the possibility of such an intuition. He still made sure people entered buildings before him or tasted the very tea he himself brewed (albeit from others' tea leaves). I believe in working to develop intuition because I understand the brain processes so much more information than we are consciously aware of, but I also believe in tempering it with cold hard logic as much as possible.

Perhaps necessity is the birthplace of such things.
Personally, I cannot believe how many people allow themselves to eat and drink poisons in packaged foods and drinks, toothpaste and the water supply.

I guess it is a part of the great divorce we have had with mother earth, brother sun and sister moon.

Perhaps I am paranoid, but I garden most of my veggies and fruits. I drink only the best teas from specialty importers (my deep ecology and martial arts buddy Shawn) and I am building a fishery in the back yard and I have a water purifier that separates the Flouride from the water.

They are coming to take me away, ha ha, ho, ho, he, he.

Chris

graham christian
06-27-2012, 03:03 PM
Hey Graham,
I am not sure that I am ready to adopt a belief that divides things as you have, though I have read all the works of Kubler Ross and Raymond Moody.

What I do know is that last night, both Delly (my partner) and I woke up thinking our house was being burglarized. Then we both instinctively knew it wasn't us. We find out, the celestial phone call was about our very good friend about a mile away. She attempted to stop a neighbor's house from being burgled and was assaulted and battered in the process. Luckily, she is ok today. Just bruises.

I understand that Takeda, Sokaku could know if there was a "bad intent" coming from someone on the other side of a wall. This skill was easy to develop in the barrios of Tijuana. And I even use it while riding my bicycle. I can "know" there is a driver who is not being attentive as far as 50 years behind me.

I am sure snipers know this skill. I had it when I was bushwhacking smugglers in the Border Patrol. When out on a desolate ranch at night, you have to blank out your sense of self or the smugglers will sense you.

Tecumseh had this skill developed very well. While organizing the Red Stick Confederation against the new U.S. Government, his attempts to persuade Big Warrior, principal chief of the Upper Creeks, had failed. In anger Tecumseh finally shouted at the old chief, “Your blood is white! . . . You do not believe the Great Spirit has sent me. You shall know. I leave Tuckhabatchee directly and shall go . . . to
Detroit. When I arrive there, I will stamp on the ground with my foot, and shake down every
house in Tuckhabatchee!” Two months later, the New madrid earthquakes began (December 1811 - February 1812.

see: see John Sugden, “Early Pan-Indianism: Tecumseh’s Tour of the Indian Country, 1811-1812,” American Indian Quarterly 10, no. 4 (Autumn 1986): 273-304.
and
http://www.davidwfletcher.com/resources/Tecumseh%20and%20the%20New%20Madrid%20Earthquakes.pdf

Wow, Little Monk Nupchen in an indian headress.

I believe that, when you see past the veil between heaven and earth, Aiki is everywhere and can be used even without the body.

Of course, even a study of this field can get over analyzed and subject to reductive experimentation.

Be well,

Chris

Nice example of spiritual awareness Chris. You say you don't want to adopt a belief that divides as I have but the other night you did just that didn't you?

Didn't you feel that something and think it was your house being burgled. Then with your friend didn't you acknowledge (so you must have checked) in yourselves that it wasn't in your mind, unrelated to anything. Then didn't you discover who it was? Spiritual perception.

As I said earlier people put things down as 'other' or imagination for they have not studied it or been brought up understanding it. So many know a person is phoning them before it happens, know what the other is going to say before they say it, know what the persons thinking before they utter a word. So many things put down as ........ well you name it. They don't know what to put it down to.

I differentiate because there are 'technical' differences which are universal in effect.

Peace.G.

George S. Ledyard
06-27-2012, 03:15 PM
In a pre-industrial mind, perhaps in the mind of Deguchi Nao (1836–1918) and Deguchi Onisaburō (1871–1948), spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.

be well,

Chris
I couldn't agree more. You are no spring chicken... you remember the days when people had the attitude that if it was natural, it was good. That spirituality was about being groovy and going with the flow. That was all a reaction to the post WWII materialism and conformity.

But that period coincided with the period of greatest growth for Aikido and the art attracted a disproportionate number of folks who had the philosophical / spiritual alignment.

Pirsig's book, one of my favorites, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, talks about this and I think his discussions are directly relevant to Aikido. The Aikido community seems to reflect the split between what Pirsig identifies as "square" and "groovy". So you have the "square" folks that put their entire focus on the technical... how does it work, why does it work, under what circumstances does it work, etc.

Then you have the "groovy" folks who pretty much take that attitude that the "feel" is paramount. It's all about the beauty of the movement, the feeling or harmony with a partner, and discussion of the art is almost entirely about the spiritual and hardly ever about the "how to".

The whole point of Pirsig's book was that this can't and shouldn't be a dichotomy, which I believe is your point as well. I think it is difficult for folks who have some real sense of this to participate in these discussions. It's one thing when the contributor is a newbie. It's quite another when the person is an experienced senior who is maintaining some point of view that you know to be from Mars. There are always different points of view and we all try, I think to be open and tolerant in general. But there are simply times when someone steps up and says, "Excuse me, but the Emperor has no clothes."

When I encounter someone whose technique is awesome and they have a solid understanding of the martial aside of the art, then I am apt to pay close attention to their ideas about spirituality. The technique is the bottom line because it's the part that you can't fake. Spiritual discussion without a real ability to manifest the principles in ones body on the mat is just disconnected, nice sounding wishful thinking. While I am equally critical of what I call the "bop and torque" folks and believe strongly that they will never become truly high level without being more thoughtful about what they do, to my mind, they are more likely to get to that high level because they are developing at least some sort of technical foundation. Neglecting that part just leads no where as far as Aikido is concerned. If being spiritually advanced was what was required to be great at Aikido, Zen Masters and Yogis, sufis and other mystics would be great at Aikido.

So, despite the need for on-line etiquette and mutual respect and tolerance here on the forums... I don't think we can really expect to have people treat nonsense as serious. Polite discussion can't require one to check ones common sense and personal experience at the door. If someone wants to prove me wrong when I say something is bogus, that's just great... I am fine with that. But until then I am apt to stay it's bogus or avoid discussion altogether, which I find myself doing more frequently these days.

That said, I enjoy your posts... you have an interesting perspective.

donhebert
06-27-2012, 03:42 PM
I offer the following possible way to cut through the words to something else, possibly spiritual:

I ask myself "what does my soul want?" I follow this thread with my whole being to where ever it takes me. Instead of nice ideas I find answers that are so deeply personal I am reluctant to say. Later, when I engage in training, can I sustain any threads to this deep place?

If it is easy to say I may not be sharing anything very important.

Sincerely,

Don Hebert

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 03:47 PM
George,
I fully respect your position as I do Gary's. My teacher in Koryu used to say, We wanted magic, so aikido was presented that way in the 1960's.

Luckily, in the 1970's guys like Master Liang, Wai Fong Doo and others hung out with our Kenpo school. I got a smidgen of the nei gung and found sources that lead me to more of it.

I feel for Aikido leadership these days as they must now navigate how to steer a very large and diverse ship. I personally think, for what that is worth, that Dan Harden's service is of great benefit to
that end.

I do not say these things lightly. I spend much time in prayer and meditation. I hope my voice has opened some hearts and navigated a few sign waves in the midst of the chaos.

Each 20 years or so, a new season (Seculum) arises. If Strauss and Howe are correct, this cycle we are in could create a serious load of suffering.
http://www.fourthturning.com/

I wonder at what point Budo leadership put aside the technical discussions and began talking about how to navigate the beginnings of 1938 in Japan?

My Jujitsu teacher was belted by Mas Tamira in 1941 and taught Jujitsu to the paramarines in Tarawa and at Sugarloaf Hill. In the 1980's, To get
belted at his dojo required a working knowledge of the US Constitution and bill of Rights, an earned
EMT-B certificate and a working knowledge of American herbs.

I guess I got spoiled to that style of teacher. He was a wise Grandfather guide who had faced a full career of international geopolitics. An Intel officer under Westmorland and advisor to Chiang Kai Shek, teaching Taiwanese to infiltrate China. He broadened the discussion about what Budo was for me. I pray we wake up and spend time on such matters today. A great social reckoning is coming that will make so many of these discussions irrelevant.

Thanks for your ear,

Respectfully,

Chris

mathewjgano
06-27-2012, 03:53 PM
SPIRIT.....There you are, something many of you haven't much reality on. Not surprising as you have been brought up not to.
And yet many of us have. So you're suggesting those who disagree do so because they don't know what it is. Of course this is a two-way street, so we're left where we started. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not you and not me. Your certainty seems to suggest an answer to me...and I'm pulling for you. I want to believe you; to find a compelling answer that offers some kind of clarity.

Then we have the idea that it cannot be defined or separated as real of itself. Well of course it can and it can be demonstrated to be. Mental machinations trying to work out something based on body and mind thinking thus outside of many's modus operandi of reason.
I have searched for demonstrations of this kind and have yet to find one. I've seen people suggest something was demonstrated, but it wasn't any more than I'm now demonstrating my secret handshake.

Yet we have a man who created Aikido who emphasized it. Hence all the confusions on what he meant.
He emphasized different things to different people and people assumed they knew more aout the context than they did. Hence the confusion.

Spiritual relates to that area which is not physical and which is not mental, yet physically and mentally you can feel the effects of it.
:D Oh, you mean heat? I presume, if it exists (not commenting on my beliefs one way or the other here), spiritual relates to those areas that are physical and mental too.

what else can someone do for they don't know the difference.
Maintain an open mind, I suppose. And what of those who believe they feel spirit, but are wrong? Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell?

Those aware of this to various degrees tend to follow or get interested in spiritual things for they intuitively know it's to do with them, their true self, true nature and god and the universe.
Convenient isn't it? Or, perhaps that's inconvnient?

So we have an art built on spiritual principles, a lesson. A lesson in discovering your true self, a path.
As well as built on physical principles, which apparently come about from the spiritual. This is the argument many are making with regard to the importance of the physical; not a seperation of physical and spiritual like you're reading into (and which I too have misread). The Shinto view is that we look to nature to understand the spirit; we also can look to concrete examples for that which inspires awe (kamisama).
The argument for why people don't understand has often been that they're just not sensitive enough, and a good many people have taken advantage of this supposed axiom in order to persuade others. Enlightenment or delusion who can tell?

Bit by bit peeling the onion, might make your eyes water. Those layers are mere clothing which are body and mind. Thus to get more 'power' people think of more muscle, more physical cause, more bombs, more tanks. More away from the truth. Nice clothes though.

Peace.G.
And yet those clothes are derived from spiritual threads...even though they are "merely" this or that. In one breath you seem to suggest we look to the thread and in another you seem to suggest it weaves into a pittance.
I like what you have to say more when it speaks of your own perspective and doesn't make presumptions about others'. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not me, and I am, I believe, about as open minded as it gets. Unfortunately that means I have to consider I am not as open minded as I think. Dammit. C'est la vie, non?
Take care,
Matthew
p.s. I like that, Don!

graham christian
06-27-2012, 03:58 PM
Following on from Georges post I must say that it's interesting to see the thought process. Directed my way of course.:)

Implying no technical foundation, implying no martial understanding, implying body disconnect (must be an I/P thing) Stating technique cannot be faked implying something, I don't know what. Ahhh, so many implications.

Reminds me of the general view people have when they see someone doing something so easily, be it a sportsman or workman or whoever. They assume somethings wrong or the person is not serious or the person is lazily doing it or it's too layed back etc. Funny thing is that those who can do things in such a manner, even let's say a guitarist who plays like he's bored, have done more technical training and practice than average. It looks too damned easy.

I mean, a person who leans over sideways to scratch his calf with his left hand whilst taking an attack with his right hand and while body twisted, facing the wrong way dumps the person who's attacking just has got it all wrong. No body connection. Mmmmm. Attacker must have decided to sit down.....

Or maybe he's one of those charachters from zen and the art of temple building. Mmmmm.;)

No, jokes aside, they are just interesting projections.

Peace.G.

DH
06-27-2012, 04:17 PM
Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgDb5IJQ9Y) among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.
This is why "peer reviews" are a traditionally solid means of vetting people in budo and other professional venues. Some people truly lack the ability to see they are suffering for meaningful progress.
Anyone can SAY anything they want. Charles Manson thought he was spiritual...and a good martial artistist as well!
Anyhoo, Aikiweb, seminars, and get togethers have done a very good job toward meaningful peer review in our community.
Dan

Chris Knight
06-27-2012, 04:36 PM
graham could it be you're studying another art and classifying it under the aikido umbrella as some kind of meditative form? just pondering thoughts really.

Speaking of peking duck wish my takeaway would hurry up
....

graham christian
06-27-2012, 04:45 PM
And yet many of us have. So you're suggesting those who disagree do so because they don't know what it is. Of course this is a two-way street, so we're left where we started. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not you and not me. Your certainty seems to suggest an answer to me...and I'm pulling for you. I want to believe you; to find a compelling answer that offers some kind of clarity.

I have searched for demonstrations of this kind and have yet to find one. I've seen people suggest something was demonstrated, but it wasn't any more than I'm now demonstrating my secret handshake.

He emphasized different things to different people and people assumed they knew more aout the context than they did. Hence the confusion.

:D Oh, you mean heat? I presume, if it exists (not commenting on my beliefs one way or the other here), spiritual relates to those areas that are physical and mental too.

Maintain an open mind, I suppose. And what of those who believe they feel spirit, but are wrong? Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell?

Convenient isn't it? Or, perhaps that's inconvnient?

As well as built on physical principles, which apparently come about from the spiritual. This is the argument many are making with regard to the importance of the physical; not a seperation of physical and spiritual like you're reading into (and which I too have misread). The Shinto view is that we look to nature to understand the spirit; we also can look to concrete examples for that which inspires awe (kamisama).
The argument for why people don't understand has often been that they're just not sensitive enough, and a good many people have taken advantage of this supposed axiom in order to persuade others. Enlightenment or delusion who can tell?

And yet those clothes are derived from spiritual threads...even though they are "merely" this or that. In one breath you seem to suggest we look to the thread and in another you seem to suggest it weaves into a pittance.
I like what you have to say more when it speaks of your own perspective and doesn't make presumptions about others'. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not me, and I am, I believe, about as open minded as it gets. Unfortunately that means I have to consider I am not as open minded as I think. Dammit. C'est la vie, non?
Take care,
Matthew
p.s. I like that, Don!

Yes Matthew. An open mind can look and say maybe this or maybe that. An open mind can accept the possibility of that view and that view. An open mind can weigh it up for theirself.

But the who can tell mind that stays there doesn't progress from shoshin.

There is both a separation needed in order to understand so that the correct relationship can be seen and understood. Heat by the way is something physicists can explain and is physical energy. Physical manifestation. You can of course spiritually manifest it too. But more importantly here for the sake of showing a difference let me use the word space.

Physical space is one thing, described and defined by physics and in the three dimentional physical world. They may even go on theoretically to describe other universes and spaces. C'est la vie. But then there is spiritual space. Very important to recognise the difference and how they both fit in Aikido and in what way. Technical. Real. Not physical, not mental.

The main reason rather than argument which has been pointed out time and time again by enlightened folk is awareness, consciousness I would say.

Yes it is true I point out the relationship and also I point out the view of the clothes as 'merely' this or that. I say both. To show degree of import. Not to totally disregard the relationship. That's why I like the story of Boddhidharma and indeed shin shin toitsu. Boddhidharma basically saw all the monks following the spiritual path and trying to reach enlightenment yet he saw they wouldn't do it, or rather many wouldn't by merely sitting still and doing 'nothing' He thus introduced motion. Being in the states whilst moving, whilst addressing the real world, whilst facing whatever comes up. Shin shin toitsu being moving meditation had that difference too. Unifying whilst in motion.

Basically getting reality on the spiritual truths learned and seeing they are real.

I will and do give how I personally see things and apply them in Aikido and life of course but when asked or challenged theoretically or philosophically then I can also explain as above. As you say, c'est la vie.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 04:48 PM
Following on from Georges post I must say that it's interesting to see the thought process. Directed my way of course.:)

Implying no technical foundation, implying no martial understanding, implying body disconnect (must be an I/P thing) Stating technique cannot be faked implying something, I don't know what. Ahhh, so many implications.

Reminds me of the general view people have when they see someone doing something so easily, be it a sportsman or workman or whoever. They assume somethings wrong or the person is not serious or the person is lazily doing it or it's too layed back etc. Funny thing is that those who can do things in such a manner, even let's say a guitarist who plays like he's bored, have done more technical training and practice than average. It looks too damned easy.

I mean, a person who leans over sideways to scratch his calf with his left hand whilst taking an attack with his right hand and while body twisted, facing the wrong way dumps the person who's attacking just has got it all wrong. No body connection. Mmmmm. Attacker must have decided to sit
down.....
Or maybe he's one of those charachters from zen and the art of temple building. Mmmmm.;)
No, jokes aside, they are just interesting projections.
Peace.G.

Still, I have to wonder why you would't meet Dan if he is willing to knock on your dojo door? When I had a dojo, I welcomed all visitors.

Just sayin'

Chris

graham christian
06-27-2012, 04:54 PM
graham could it be you're studying another art and classifying it under the aikido umbrella as some kind of meditative form? just pondering thoughts really.

Speaking of peking duck wish my takeaway would hurry up
....

No. Mmmmm, can't concentrate now, you're making me hungry.:)

Chris, a lot of what I say comes through the practice of Aikido and I would hope that many realize many things through such.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-27-2012, 05:04 PM
Still, I have to wonder why you would't meet Dan if he is willing to knock on your dojo door? When I had a dojo, I welcomed all visitors.

Just sayin'

Chris

Chris didn't you try? (don't answer that on this thread please)

Many people wonder that too. They have their own conclusions too. It's a nice saying to say 'we welcome all' but in reality that's not the case.

If it bugs you that much you can pm me.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-27-2012, 05:14 PM
Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgDb5IJQ9Y) among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.
This is why "peer reviews" are a traditionally solid means of vetting people in budo and other professional venues. Some people truly lack the ability to see they are suffering for meaningful progress.
Anyone can SAY anything they want. Charles Manson thought he was spiritual...and a good martial artistist as well!
Anyhoo, Aikiweb, seminars, and get togethers have done a very good job toward meaningful peer review in our community.
Dan

Peers. Mmmmm. What is a peer to you? Vetting? What does that mean? Peer review? What would that be?

I'd like to know.

Peace.G.

DH
06-27-2012, 05:14 PM
Chris didn't you try? (don't answer that on this thread please)

Many people wonder that too. They have their own conclusions too. It's a nice saying to say 'we welcome all' but in reality that's not the case.

If it bugs you that much you can pm me.

Peace.G.
For the record
1. I offered to come to you Graham and buy you dinner.
2. I have NEVER said I welcome all. Ever!
3. I have turned down many requests to train with me.
4. I am fairly picky about who I spend my time with and develop a relationship with-for many different reasons.
Lets let it end there. Any discussion is not for this thread.
Dan

donhebert
06-27-2012, 05:14 PM
Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgDb5IJQ9Y) among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.
This is why "peer reviews" are a traditionally solid means of vetting people in budo and other professional venues. Some people truly lack the ability to see they are suffering for meaningful progress.
Anyone can SAY anything they want. Charles Manson thought he was spiritual...and a good martial artistist as well!
Anyhoo, Aikiweb, seminars, and get togethers have done a very good job toward meaningful peer review in our community.
Dan

Hi Dan,

I agree completely (and with George's post as well). Objective feedback is absolutely essential to making progress. My own growth has only happened when I have sought out teachers (and experiences) who will take me out my comfort zone.

Thanks,

Don

mathewjgano
06-27-2012, 05:23 PM
Heat by the way is something physicists can explain and is physical energy. Physical manifestation. You can of course spiritually manifest it too. But more importantly here for the sake of showing a difference let me use the word space.

Physical space is one thing, described and defined by physics and in the three dimentional physical world. They may even go on theoretically to describe other universes and spaces. C'est la vie. But then there is spiritual space. Very important to recognise the difference and how they both fit in Aikido and in what way. Technical. Real. Not physical, not mental.

The point though, is that there is a recognizable effect someone can point to and which reliably demonstrates a quality (heat) or thing (vibrating atoms). There is some kind of mutually accessible experience which offers a definition. If there isn't a shared experience, it's impossible to relate, isn 't it? This is the point to describing the physical experience/result; not in suggesting a seperation of the spiritual and physical, but in finding commonality with which to help verify something about the effect/affector.
...I think.:) Je ne sais pas; c'est la vie.
Here's to shared understanding and positive individual growth for the sake of all.
All my best,
Matt

DH
06-27-2012, 05:30 PM
Peers. Mmmmm. What is a peer to you? Vetting? What does that mean? Peer review? What would that be?

I'd like to know.

Peace.G.
It applies to those who are doing a thing that others are doing as well. Implicit in that is a sort of standard. Hence, there is a group of peers (wanted or unwanted) to compare efforts and results with.
Most Aikido teachers I know and respect from around the world discuss certain people as rather unique for various reasons. Sometimes being considered unique is the highest form of flattery, others times it is severely dismissive, and derogatory of someones thoughts and efforts.
George, has made some interesting observations about certain peoples opinions on spiritual matters being as valuable as their successful movements and abilities.

It is a simple thing really. Some people want to be unique and think they are advanced. Your peers, and testing, tends to put you in your place and give you a reality check on what you thought you know and can actually do to and among peers in a group.

Dan

DH
06-27-2012, 05:37 PM
Hi Dan,

I agree completely (and with George's post as well). Objective feedback is absolutely essential to making progress. My own growth has only happened when I have sought out teachers (and experiences) who will take me out my comfort zone.

Thanks,

Don
Well....I obviously agree. The best lessons I learned were from the flat of my back (Jujutsu's middle name is "mistake.") and over long table discussions where I was wrong!!! :o

Failure to test and expose yourself to testing is the surest sign of a conscious self-doubt and is not the state of a truly developed mind...or spirit. Spirit/mind/body are inexorably intertwined but not mutually supportive. You can fail or be weak in any one.

In Budo, it is the shining examples of those more developed and balanced that we hope for and try to know and learn from. When balanced properly these things support each in a palpable and expressive way. There are reasons that some of the more advanced people are extraverts and charasmatic. They are transparant, even childlike sometimes yet very potent. Others are potent but are poorly developed emotionally and are largely ego driven, build organizations that suck up to them and they ...beyond all protestations to the contrary...really don't teach and help.

Some people simply have no place at this table. Some hide their lack, others are unaware until it is shown or exposed by others.
Dan

graham christian
06-27-2012, 05:43 PM
The point though, is that there is a recognizable effect someone can point to and which reliably demonstrates a quality (heat) or thing (vibrating atoms). There is some kind of mutually accessible experience which offers a definition. If there isn't a shared experience, it's impossible to relate, isn 't it? This is the point to describing the physical experience/result; not in suggesting a seperation of the spiritual and physical, but in finding commonality with which to help verify something about the effect/affector.
...I think.:) Je ne sais pas; c'est la vie.
Here's to shared understanding and positive individual growth for the sake of all.
All my best,
Matt

I agree. Such is my training. Funny thing is though I can get someone to do something physically and get them to do something spiritually and spot the difference. They have recognizable effects that they can point to and reliably demonstrate something.

By knowing the difference therefor one can separate and say spiritually do 'that' and watch the effect.

Separation, clear differentiation has to be there first in order to answer questions correctly. For instance I could ask you to lets say tighten your arm and clench your fist and punch forward with a quick retraction. Then I could ask you these questions. (I just made that one up by the way so there is no significance or anything special to learn from it)

1) How did that feel physically? (How did the body like it?)
2) How did that feel mentally? (how did the mind like it?)
3) How did that feel spiritually? (How did you like it?)

Could even go further and enquire how your soul liked it or how your heart like it. but it would have to be clear first the difference between each in order to give attention to and enquire and find out.

Just sayin....

Bon apetite!

Peace.G.

gregstec
06-27-2012, 05:55 PM
Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgDb5IJQ9Y) among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.

Dan

OMG, I could actually feel (due to my increased ki awareness, of course) John Lennon and Judy Garland roll over in their graves during that rendition :eek:

That is just an excellent example to bring home the point that not everyone gets an 'A' regardless of what you think your talent is - honest feedback is essential to knowing where you are at - period!

Greg

p.s. Just curious if this guy did any performance for others prior to that show and why reality did not manifest itself before then.

graham christian
06-27-2012, 06:17 PM
It applies to those who are doing a thing that others are doing as well. Implicit in that is a sort of standard. Hence, there is a group of peers (wanted or unwanted) to compare efforts and results with.
Most Aikido teachers I know and respect from around the world discuss certain people as rather unique for various reasons. Sometimes being considered unique is the highest form of flattery, others times it is severely dismissive, and derogatory of someones thoughts and efforts.
George, has made some interesting observations about certain peoples opinions on spiritual matters being as valuable as their successful movements and abilities.

It is a simple thing really. Some people want to be unique and think they are advanced. Your peers, and testing, tends to put you in your place and give you a reality check on what you thought you know and can actually do to and among peers in a group.

Dan

So a peer is someone doing what you are doing. In the dictionary all definitions are about equal so actually it implies equal. That's also the meaning of it's root too. So someone of equal quality or ability etc.

There is another definition which relates to birth and rank like a duke, marquis, earl, count. So I doubt you mean that one although you may slip in that rank bit which would thus be wrong.

Nothing about standards though, sounds like an additive to me. A separate thing. Unless we are talking someone of equal standard being a peer.

So there are peers, people doing similar to me. We share the same goals and activity. That loosely makes us a kind of group.

Someone training to shoot targets, a sportsman, would thus have peers too. Yet someone training to shoot people, say a soldier or even a hitman, would be doing similar activity yet would be a different group, specifically yet generally the same group. Are they peers? Their goals are different, their reasons are different, their whole mentality is different.

Techniques are different too.

Are you my peer?

So the point is meeting peers is natural and we all do it. Meeting others is a different subject.

Being part of an organizational set approach to doing things is yet another subject. Those in it must follow that approach.

You definitely are unique so your reference to such seems like you are projecting some false view on me.

Nothing wrong with unique actually but the relationship to superiority or delusion is thus again misplaced I would say.

So I would say your peers are those who do internal arts i/p and i/s from a similar view to yours. Otherwise they are not your peers. They are something else.

So that's how I see it.

I've always trained and been tested by peers as has most everyone really.

Peace.G..

graham christian
06-27-2012, 06:26 PM
I offer the following possible way to cut through the words to something else, possibly spiritual:

I ask myself "what does my soul want?" I follow this thread with my whole being to where ever it takes me. Instead of nice ideas I find answers that are so deeply personal I am reluctant to say. Later, when I engage in training, can I sustain any threads to this deep place?

If it is easy to say I may not be sharing anything very important.

Sincerely,

Don Hebert

I like it, good on you.

In regards to your reply to George and the point of objective feedback I would say that's obvious no?

I don't see why it's made as a point. Anyway, soldier on.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-27-2012, 07:55 PM
Chris didn't you try? (don't answer that on this thread please)

Many people wonder that too. They have their own conclusions too. It's a nice saying to say 'we welcome all' but in reality that's not the case.

If it bugs you that much you can pm me.

Peace.G.

My issue with Dan does not flow into yours. They are a totally different animal. He's coming to London and has requested a visit.

I would suggest that you be responsible for your own actions. and let your yea be yea or your nay be nay.

Wysiwyg.

Chris

Gary David
06-27-2012, 09:37 PM
So I would say your peers are those who do internal arts i/p and i/s from a similar view to yours. Otherwise they are not your peers. They are something else.

So that's how I see it.

I've always trained and been tested by peers as has most everyone really.

Peace.G..

Graham
Peer review is generally a process of having your concepts, such as a concept of design, ideas for a new process, any thing really....say the building of a bridge using new materials or what could be seen as unusual untested methods, designs or new combinations of all of these, looked at critically by any number of others. Peer review involves many folks of varied disciplines within an organization as anyone of these folks may "see" something that has been missed by the originator, or the close design group around that individual. Any number of experiences that an individual may had, training they have undergone...may lead to questions that raise issues that need to be addressed. These folks can be just months on the job and many years. Peer review is not turning to your brother, one of your students or very close friends and asking how am I doing.

Your approach to spiritual..... to Spiritual Aikido...... seems to be your unique combination of any number of pieces and as such could be subject to outside peer review to get an honest assessment of the effectiveness of what you do.

Gary

Keith Larman
06-27-2012, 11:41 PM
Well....I obviously agree. The best lessons I learned were from the flat of my back (Jujutsu's middle name is "mistake.") and over long table discussions where I was wrong!!! :o

I have often joked that my most profound learning experiences in Aikido usually involved ice packs... Yeah, that didn't work...

Marc Abrams
06-28-2012, 08:12 AM
Graham
Peer review is generally a process of having your concepts, such as a concept of design, ideas for a new process, any thing really....say the building of a bridge using new materials or what could be seen as unusual untested methods, designs or new combinations of all of these, looked at critically by any number of others. Peer review involves many folks of varied disciplines within an organization as anyone of these folks may "see" something that has been missed by the originator, or the close design group around that individual. Any number of experiences that an individual may had, training they have undergone...may lead to questions that raise issues that need to be addressed. These folks can be just months on the job and many years. Peer review is not turning to your brother, one of your students or very close friends and asking how am I doing.

Your approach to spiritual..... to Spiritual Aikido...... seems to be your unique combination of any number of pieces and as such could be subject to outside peer review to get an honest assessment of the effectiveness of what you do.

Gary

Gary:

You spelled it out beautifully! Frankly speaking, Graham's continued avoidance of Dan's kind offer (and others for that matter) amounts to little more than...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX1YzS_CYIw

At the end of the day, Budo is not about what you say, but what you can do without excuses.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

DH
06-28-2012, 08:36 AM
Re...the you tube link of the guitar player

That is just an excellent example to bring home the point that not everyone gets an 'A' regardless of what you think your talent is - honest feedback is essential to knowing where you are at - period!
Greg
p.s. Just curious if this guy did any performance for others prior to that show and why reality did not manifest itself before then.
Did you miss the best part?
The guitar player, (well, he really wasn't was he?) made a terrible showing, and at the end of the video he asks "Is that it, its over?"
He had no idea how incredibly inept he was.

Now tie it in to Aikido-well, any budo really. Peer review helps preserve the integrity of a group. Any single example, as well as any significant change in the accepts partices of a discipline, damages or alters the value of the whole. Which is why peer reviews were and are important. Idealy, people rose through the ranks and there was a self check. It is an inconsistant model but it offers a basic framework for review. We have all seen some really strange exceptions to that.
Interestingly, you can apply it to some very active spiritual figures.
Dan

DH
06-28-2012, 08:57 AM
Gary:

You spelled it out beautifully! Frankly speaking, Graham's continued avoidance of Dan's kind offer (and others for that matter) amounts to little more than...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX1YzS_CYIw

At the end of the day, Budo is not about what you say, but what you can do without excuses.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc
I have not considered myself as a peer of Grahams. That's your job.
My offer to him was that regardless of his methodology he used to deliver the results he shows....I can fix the results he shows, just as I am for teachers, one after the other. I offered to help Aikido folks with an open hand for the simple reason that I think that Aikido-ka, while having a host of physical issues, are sincere in their pursuits. The understanding of the mind/body connection had an ultimate yield. It was never a nebulous, spiritual whos who, tooth fairy, kitchen sink endeavor. It is a mind/body technology. The men who pursued it were substantial.
So reading modern corruptions in understanding from people lacking any power whatsoever places them outside...looking in from the jump. It should disqualify them at the start, but the real problem is that so many in Aikido are so unaware and uneducated that they can't take part either. They see the physical issues with their apporach and they try to fix it with waza, movement and sadly- muscle. At least they see some of the failures in the model though.

The rather Ecumenical movement approach to group spirituality we are reading here does not apply to tried and true models of power building that exists in practice in Asia. Most notably those used for warriors, and the ones Ueshiba was quoting as his own methods for Aikido. Since the people lacking power don't truly have any idea of what it takes to produce power and aiki, what it looks like or feels like, or what to look for, they grasp at straws hoping for a positive outcome.

Interestingly, there actually was/is a spiritual/mind/body process with an ultimate yield that warriors and monks explored. None of what has been expressed here, has anything to do with that though. Ki as "universal energy" is just not going to get anyone there.
Dan

mrlizard123
06-28-2012, 08:58 AM
He had no idea how incredibly inept he was.

Reminds me of this:
http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/wp-content/uploads/S_psp7761121fig1a.jpg

from here:
Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments (http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html)

gregstec
06-28-2012, 09:08 AM
Re...the you tube link of the guitar player

Did you miss the best part?
The guitar player, (well, he really wasn't was he?) made a terrible showing, and at the end of the video he asks "Is that it, its over?"
He had no idea how incredibly inept he was.

Dan

Naw, I did not miss it - that is the part I was referring to as an excellent example for the requirement for feedback - in a way, I feel sorry for the guy since it appears no one provided him honest feedback prior to the show so he could have avoided that embarrassment.

Greg

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 09:38 AM
Gary:

You spelled it out beautifully! Frankly speaking, Graham's continued avoidance of Dan's kind offer (and others for that matter) amounts to little more than...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX1YzS_CYIw

At the end of the day, Budo is not about what you say, but what you can do without excuses.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Mark,

Truth told, I am not sure just how kind Dan's offer is.......
Secondly, your statement is surely true about Budo being what you can do without excuses.

I challenge everyone of us to take a step back and take a break from matching martial pedigrees and training methods and take a look at what we have accomplished with it. There is a lion within each one of us and it is itching to do something truly meaningful and creative.

I challenge you to find your greatest heartbreak and put your passion, your budo and your time into being the change you want to see in this world. And let those who do not try to be that lion, go sit in the nosebleed seats.

Be well,

Chris

Keith Larman
06-28-2012, 09:40 AM
Just saw this today. Seemed apropos.

DH
06-28-2012, 09:42 AM
Reminds me of this:
http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/wp-content/uploads/S_psp7761121fig1a.jpg

from here:
Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments (http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html)

Interestingly those above the intersection had an awareness of the topic enough to score the highest, and of their awareness??? It helped them enjoy a lower expectation of themselves while they remained the achievers.
Oops...didn't mean to use terminology like score high and achieve, or get an "A."
Everyone being all equal, non-competative and the same and all...
I have noticed how everyone follows 5th kyus......;)
Dan

mrlizard123
06-28-2012, 09:50 AM
Truth told, I am not sure just how kind Dan's offer is.......

There have been quite a few people who have been vociferous in their denouncing of Dan before meeting him and he has been called any number of things; if you do some historical research on people's opinions of him online pre/post real world meeting you can see some evidence of this.

People go from being derogatory/dismissive or fairly offensive and insulting to a quite considerable change in their opinions and I've not come across anyone, on any of the forums I've browsed (though I've not read all by any means, by all means let me know if you know differently), where someone has met up with him and declared him to be anything less than a genuine person with some interesting "stuff" to offer.

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if he were anything other than pleasant in these meet ups.

mrlizard123
06-28-2012, 09:58 AM
Interestingly those above the intersection had an awareness of the topic enough to score the highest, and of their awareness??? It helped them enjoy a lower expectation of themselves while they remained the achievers.


I'm fairly sure this is a pretty important point.

If your belief was still way up above your ability you see yourself with less room for improvement; possibly justify slacking off and reducing your input because you already "know it all".

Keeping yourself of the opinion that you are "pretty good" but around 25% off of "the ceiling" or so means you can still see plenty space for growth and push for it.

The more you can do, the further you know you still can go, or something along those lines.

Just musing a related idea.

DH
06-28-2012, 10:03 AM
There have been quite a few people who have been vociferous in their denouncing of Dan before meeting him and he has been called any number of things; if you do some historical research on people's opinions of him online pre/post real world meeting you can see some evidence of this.

People go from being derogatory/dismissive or fairly offensive and insulting to a quite considerable change in their opinions and I've not come across anyone, on any of the forums I've browsed (though I've not read all by any means, by all means let me know if you know differently), where someone has met up with him and declared him to be anything less than a genuine person with some interesting "stuff" to offer.

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if he were anything other than pleasant in these meet ups.
Well lets see
Liar
Fraud
Huckster
Salesman
Snake oil salesmen
Charlatan
Thief: stole the material of others (with proof contradicting that)
Bully
Dangerous
Not safe
Pompous
Ego driven
Full of S....t!

What is not said;
Menkyo, Shihan, 6th dans on down, BJJ champs, MMA people with fight records
No one
Not one...
of 1,100 people and 322 in my dojo over the years that I have met and crossed hands with have been able to handle what I am doing.

Everyone is having fun and has heard me say over and over that
"I am just another bum on the budo bus"
"Don't call me sensei"
"This stuff is out there, I'm not the only one."
And they have seen me...in open rooms.
Bow at the feet of those I best....over and over.
And last and most important?
My efforts are bringing together people from many different budo...who by their own admission would never have trained together...into one room and they are becoming friends on and off the mats.

Here now, with Chris... My offer to Graham, despite all evidence to the contrary to show him what I am doing one-on-one with no one in the room and for free...my integrity, honesty, and fair handedness is questioned for no good reason....by yet another self proclaimed spiritual person! :rolleyes:
Dan

yugen
06-28-2012, 10:03 AM
There have been quite a few people who have been vociferous in their denouncing of Dan before meeting him and he has been called any number of things...

I've been to one of Dan's seminars, one of Howard's and one of Sam Chin's - I continue to call all three a number of things in private as I practice! :grr: As I said to Sam, "you all have ruined me! I used to think I was good and knew what I was doing!" :D

DH
06-28-2012, 10:05 AM
I'm fairly sure this is a pretty important point.

If your belief was still way up above your ability you see yourself with less room for improvement; possibly justify slacking off and reducing your input because you already "know it all".

Keeping yourself of the opinion that you are "pretty good" but around 25% off of "the ceiling" or so means you can still see plenty space for growth and push for it.

The more you can do, the further you know you still can go, or something along those lines.

Just musing a related idea.
Yes. Having an awareness of something larger than you...keeps you hungry and self aware of your vulnerability. Which usually breathes....... effort.
Dan

Marc Abrams
06-28-2012, 10:12 AM
Hi Mark,

Truth told, I am not sure just how kind Dan's offer is.......
Secondly, your statement is surely true about Budo being what you can do without excuses.

I challenge everyone of us to take a step back and take a break from matching martial pedigrees and training methods and take a look at what we have accomplished with it. There is a lion within each one of us and it is itching to do something truly meaningful and creative.

I challenge you to find your greatest heartbreak and put your passion, your budo and your time into being the change you want to see in this world. And let those who do not try to be that lion, go sit in the nosebleed seats.

Be well,

Chris

Chris:

I hope that if you are ever in the metropolitan NYC area, that you can stop by my school. I would genuinely like to meet you.

As to meetings, Dan's offer is really sincere and KIND. There is Dan's on-line persona and then there is Dan in Person. Dan has a remarkable degree of humility, honesty and kindness that allow people to be able to recognize how little we really do know and how much there is to learn. He is overwhelming in his generosity to share what he had discovered and is discovering.

We are not here trying to match pedigrees (or at least not me, Dan, or the host of other wonderful people I have met at his seminars). We are so dedicated to the pursuit of discovering the depths of true budo as a vehicle for making this planet better, that we leave our egos aside and actively search for what we are missing. We spend countless hours seeking a higher truth that is manifest in what we do every day. We do not shirk away from exploring what we know and what we do not know, nor do we assume some holier-than-thou attitude about some greater understanding of things.

In my opinion: The Golden Equilibrium is a sad state of affairs. This person spent too few years training with somebody who himself, did not have any substantial, direct links to the founder of our art or any of his direct students. This person's videos are sad sights. This person's pontifications are well-intended, yet idiosyncratic in ridiculous ways. His constant need to have his words focused on is matched by the lack of integrity of stepping up to any legitimate question and challenge in word or act. His passion is undeniable and his potential is obvious. He simply remains his own worst enemy. His words should not go unchallenged. We are working hard enough as it is to raise the overall level of discourse and instruction in Aikido, to let this stuff float out there so that novices could potentially get seriously misdirected by trying to follow this obvious nonsense.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 10:22 AM
There have been quite a few people who have been vociferous in their denouncing of Dan before meeting him and he has been called any number of things; if you do some historical research on people's opinions of him online pre/post real world meeting you can see some evidence of this.

People go from being derogatory/dismissive or fairly offensive and insulting to a quite considerable change in their opinions and I've not come across anyone, on any of the forums I've browsed (though I've not read all by any means, by all means let me know if you know differently), where someone has met up with him and declared him to be anything less than a genuine person with some interesting "stuff" to offer.

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if he were anything other than pleasant in these meet ups.

I wouldn't know about this. All I have is how he has responded to me and a chance to read the lines on his face from photos. As to the former, I have stated that most verbal issues are often resolved on the mats with a laugh and a beer.

It does irk me, however, when I watch a gang of folks take so much time trying to corner someone when a point has already been made. I am sure somewhere in a treatise on Budo (perhaps Daidoji Yuzan) there is a statement that continuing such an assault is just not cricket.

Graham's response is between him and Dan. When others jump into the fray, it looks like an elementary school bully session or a pack of Buzzards chewing upon carion. And I do wonder what good can come of it.

Regards,

Chris

Chris Knight
06-28-2012, 10:25 AM
I must appear to be dumb as well as be dumb as I'm struggling to follow the graph!

mrlizard123
06-28-2012, 10:32 AM
I must appear to be dumb as well as be dumb as I'm struggling to follow the graph!

Don't worry mate, you're off the chart.

(just don't ask in which direction... :p )

DH
06-28-2012, 10:34 AM
I wouldn't know about this. All I have is how he has responded to me and a chance to read the lines on his face from photos. As to the former, I have stated that most verbal issues are often resolved on the mats with a laugh and a beer.

Chris
Where was I not a gentleman? I don't think my private responses to you belong in any discussion here.

Graham's response is between him and Dan. When others jump into the fray, it looks like an elementary school bully session or a pack of Buzzards chewing upon carion. And I do wonder what good can come of it.
Regards,
Chris
Well, Chris...you jumped into that fray....twice!!! And moreover, to call my sincerity into doubt without cause.

Graham is a straight forward person-even his detractors acknowledge that. And many call me deadly honest. We most certainly can take care of our agreements and disagreements. Leave me out of the buzzards circling carion commentary, when you yourself take part, and when I have been the one who offered to explain and demonstrate our differences to Graham free of charge and in private. It is unsupportable where I am concerned!

This is off topic, lets drop it okay?

Dan

Chris Knight
06-28-2012, 10:38 AM
well obviously rich i underestimate how good I am, so at the top quartile?

:)

DH
06-28-2012, 10:39 AM
well obviously rich i underestimate how good I am, so at the top quartile?
:)
Ah...but then you would have to actually BE...good to qualify. ;) :D

Chris Knight
06-28-2012, 10:42 AM
And many call me deadly

you got that portion right:D

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 10:43 AM
Chris
Where was I not a gentleman? I don't think my private responses to you belong in any discussion here.

Well, Chris...you jumped into that fray....twice!!! And moreover, to call my sincerity into doubt without cause.

Graham is a straight forward person-even his detractors acknowledge that. And many call me deadly honest. We most certainly can take care of our agreements and disagreements. Leave me out of the buzzards circling carion commentary, when you yourself take part, and when I have been the one who offered to explain and demonstrate our differences to Graham free of charge and in private. It is unsupportable where I am concerned!

This is off topic, lets drop it okay?

Dan

Dan,

I did not call you a buzzard. It is the circle that concerns me. Your stuff with Graham is between you two. Ours is ours. That is all I said.

I entered intentionally into a discussion about Spiritual Aikido in a specific attempt to find something in common with Graham, another human being with faults and beauty, just like the rest of us. I found that comonality and was pleased with it.

And, indeed, I am happy to drop it. I do suspect you and I would find much in common if we ever met.

regards,

Chris

mrlizard123
06-28-2012, 10:44 AM
I wouldn't know about this. All I have is how he has responded to me and a chance to read the lines on his face from photos. As to the former, I have stated that most verbal issues are often resolved on the mats with a laugh and a beer.
I'd respectfully suggest that perhaps your intuition and face reading isn't, in this case, reliable; with myself you'd conclude that I'm always eating or am particularly stupid from my photos which would be... oh... well, not everyone is as clear to read :D

It does irk me, however, when I watch a gang of folks take so much time trying to corner someone when a point has already been made. I am sure somewhere in a treatise on Budo (perhaps Daidoji Yuzan) there is a statement that continuing such an assault is just not cricket.

I don't see it as trying to corner someone; if someone continually asserts a point other are also free to assert their contrasting or supporting points. That there may be more making one point than another is something you can make many different judgements on the meaning of based on your knowledge of the subject matter and/or the individuals. The less information you have, the harder it is to rely upon that intuitive judgement.

Graham's response is between him and Dan. When others jump into the fray, it looks like an elementary school bully session or a pack of Buzzards chewing upon carion. And I do wonder what good can come of it.

I'm not sure Graham is carrion; the image of declaring all people commenting on the subject not on Graham's "side", if sides there are, as buzzards is one carrying unfair imagery.

Graham frequently points out things such as "no one understands" or words to that effect; for someone to make their own observations that are less sweeping and more directed is as valid and my preference is for specifics rather than broad brush strokes.

There are many "good" things that could come of this, at worst I see a lot more talking that doesn't get us anywhere. But it passes the time until training at least :D

Chris Knight
06-28-2012, 10:49 AM
with myself you'd conclude that I'm always eating

you aren't? :D

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 10:51 AM
Chris:

I hope that if you are ever in the metropolitan NYC area, that you can stop by my school. I would genuinely like to meet you.

As to meetings, Dan's offer is really sincere and KIND. There is Dan's on-line persona and then there is Dan in Person. Dan has a remarkable degree of humility, honesty and kindness that allow people to be able to recognize how little we really do know and how much there is to learn. He is overwhelming in his generosity to share what he had discovered and is discovering.

We are not here trying to match pedigrees (or at least not me, Dan, or the host of other wonderful people I have met at his seminars). We are so dedicated to the pursuit of discovering the depths of true budo as a vehicle for making this planet better, that we leave our egos aside and actively search for what we are missing. We spend countless hours seeking a higher truth that is manifest in what we do every day. We do not shirk away from exploring what we know and what we do not know, nor do we assume some holier-than-thou attitude about some greater understanding of things.

In my opinion: The Golden Equilibrium is a sad state of affairs. This person spent too few years training with somebody who himself, did not have any substantial, direct links to the founder of our art or any of his direct students. This person's videos are sad sights. This person's pontifications are well-intended, yet idiosyncratic in ridiculous ways. His constant need to have his words focused on is matched by the lack of integrity of stepping up to any legitimate question and challenge in word or act. His passion is undeniable and his potential is obvious. He simply remains his own worst enemy. His words should not go unchallenged. We are working hard enough as it is to raise the overall level of discourse and instruction in Aikido, to let this stuff float out there so that novices could potentially get seriously misdirected by trying to follow this obvious nonsense.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

You too Mark,

It is rare that I am in New York. Bit let's see what unfolds.

Be well,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 11:57 AM
Chris
If we are to find common ground we need to understand each other starting with what is the easiest to get to....".....how do you train your body to work as part of the whole?.....what kind of practices do you do to effect the body's functioning to do these things? How do you condition your body? Spirit and mind can be strong...weak body means nothing good happens. And you know that John has drills to help with this, that is what Dan is talking about at this stage is the body work, and that others are out there offering their approaches.

Graham likely has drills, solo training and partner training....other than just waza... to effect the conditioning... that is what I am asking.

Gary

I know that is your goal Gary, But the process does raise a few questions:

1. How many times would you go fishing when you are not catching any fish?

2. Does the act actually draw out, like mary metioned, the less-than honorable remarks from the larger circle as they begin to prey upon the weaknesses that are exposed.

3. I also wonder how the rest of the public interprets this stuff. After all, here are various Aikido leadership folks writing on a forum that is in public view.

4. Finally, I am listening to the dogs that didn't bark. Many Aikido leaders who are reading participants of this forum have chosen not to add flame to this pyre. Why?

Be Well,

Chris

Just some thoughts,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 12:08 PM
I'd respectfully suggest that perhaps your intuition and face reading isn't, in this case, reliable; with myself you'd conclude that I'm always eating or am particularly stupid from my photos which would be... oh... well, not everyone is as clear to read :D

I don't see it as trying to corner someone; if someone continually asserts a point other are also free to assert their contrasting or supporting points. That there may be more making one point than another is something you can make many different judgements on the meaning of based on your knowledge of the subject matter and/or the individuals. The less information you have, the harder it is to rely upon that intuitive judgement.

I'm not sure Graham is carrion; the image of declaring all people commenting on the subject not on Graham's "side", if sides there are, as buzzards is one carrying unfair imagery.

Graham frequently points out things such as "no one understands" or words to that effect; for someone to make their own observations that are less sweeping and more directed is as valid and my preference is for specifics rather than broad brush strokes.

There are many "good" things that could come of this, at worst I see a lot more talking that doesn't get us anywhere. But it passes the time until training at least :D

Hi Rick,

I actually wrote no conclusions or interpretations regarding my "reading" of Dan's face lines. You may be projecting. Nonetheless, I and Dan agreed to "let it go". I hope all can honor that agreement.

As to the imagery, I called it as I saw it. I do not know hardly any of you folks and I have several times taken long hiatus from this site.. I wonder how newcomers or outsiders interpret these behaviors?

I agree that Graham's brush strokes are often vague and his style elusive.

Be well,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 12:25 PM
Here now, with Chris... My offer to Graham, despite all evidence to the contrary to show him what I am doing one-on-one with no one in the room and for free...my integrity, honesty, and fair handedness is questioned for no good reason....by yet another self proclaimed spiritual person! :rolleyes:
Dan

Dan, I thought we were going to let this go?????

I am not questioning your integrity nor you honesty. I call into question your approach.
Graham does not know you. All he probably has is the words and style in which you write.
He also has a statement from the group that they are attempting to "police" (my words) Aikido teachers who do not as of yet have the internal training that is becoming standard through your teachings.

Where I live, the police want us to create block watches. But they are no longer peace officers, they are law enforcement officers. And if we call them regarding an incident, they will come to our house, (1) exposing us to the eyes of the gangs and (2) once inside the house, they reserve the right to find something we might get arrested for.

That approach, whether it be from you or a local uniformed policeman, can be very intimidating and does not necessarily build trust. Thus, as a phenomenologist, I have said, "I am not sure how kind Dan's offer is." I say that as if I were looking through Graham's eyes.

'Nuff said.

Chris

Gary David
06-28-2012, 12:30 PM
I know that is your goal Gary, But the process does raise a few questions:

1. How many times would you go fishing when you are not catching any fish?

There are any number of folks watching from the bank that are being told by the individual sitting the bait shop on the bank that this pond has all of the fish and really the only "real" fish. I am no fisherman, but I can tell when a pond has no fish. Sometimes you just have to keep pointing this out.

2. Does the act actually draw out, like mary metioned, the less-than honorable remarks from the larger circle as they begin to prey upon the weaknesses that are exposed.

What are honorable remarks, what are less than honorable......most that are call "less than honorable remarks are the very fact that anyone would even question the validity of things that are said by an individual. If you get up on that soap box...you sure are open for it. Once you have declared your self the true representative of the true path...you are open for it....actually the comments have been quite mild all things considered........

3. I also wonder how the rest of the public interprets this stuff. After all, here are various Aikido leadership folks writing on a forum that is in public view.

I don't know how many of the upper tier of what you are calling Aikido leadership folks actually post here. None of the major organizational leaders do..... now they may drop in to read....or they may have their representatives post...don't know....

4. Finally, I am listening to the dogs that didn't bark. Many Aikido leaders who are reading participants of this forum have chosen not to add flame to this pyre. Why?

Why...you know why...so why do you bring it up I am still trying to figure out why I bother to post here myself.....I'll give you my approach to this....years ago at a gym I was ask by a women friend why I wasn't across the room hanging around a beautiful woman doing some lifting like about 10 or so other guys.....my reply was ...old dog young dog..... young dog runs along the fence and barks at everything that is close.....old dog waits until something falls into their yard......

Be Well,

Chris

Just some thoughts,

Chris

as always

Gary

Janet Rosen
06-28-2012, 12:40 PM
young dog runs along the fence and barks at everything that is close.....old dog waits until something falls into their yard......

:D

Chris Parkerson
06-28-2012, 12:55 PM
There are any number of folks watching from the bank that are being told by the individual sitting the bait shop on the bank that this pond has all of the fish and really the only "real" fish. I am no fisherman, but I can tell when a pond has no fish. Sometimes you just have to keep pointing this out.

What are honorable remarks, what are less than honorable......most that are call "less than honorable remarks are the very fact that anyone would even question the validity of things that are said by an individual. If you get up on that soap box...you sure are open for it. Once you have declared your self the true representative of the true path...you are open for it....actually the comments have been quite mild all things considered........

I don't know how many of the upper tier of what you are calling Aikido leadership folks actually post here. None of the major organizational leaders do..... now they may drop in to read....or they may have their representatives post...don't know....

Why...you know why...so why do you bring it up I am still trying to figure out why I bother to post here myself.....I'll give you my approach to this....years ago at a gym I was ask by a women friend why I wasn't across the room hanging around a beautiful woman doing some lifting like about 10 or so other guys.....my reply was ...old dog young dog..... young dog runs along the fence and barks at everything that is close.....old dog waits until something falls into their yard......

as always

Gary

Thanks Gary

I am not sure why I am posting either. My agenda was completed - twice.

It was simple, my message is that we all need to begin working on irenics and bigger issues. It is 1938 and a bad wind is about to blow. A Trifecta, if you will. nature will be declaring WWIII. The old paradigm of civilization is crumbling and that will lead to natural chaos. Finally, the "have's" will be protecting themselves against the "have nots" on a global scale. The have-nots, unless you are very rich, is you and me.

Integrity will be the real currency over the next 5-10 years. That does not mean I have impeccable integrity. It means we all will learn the hard way when we have choices to make regarding our families, neighbors, and our associates in the dojo. Who will we be able to rely on and who will share with us as we share with them?

Integrity will be the real currency when food is sparse, when lawlessness is rampant and when most are running amok seeking only to save themselves.

When folks in my neighborhood need something (most have no job or education), they often steal it or rob to get it. Some say morality is a middle class privelege. Soon we shall see.

With that, I bow out of this conference.

I thank everyone for what I have learned through this experience and am grateful for those who have befriended me off line. Should anyone wish to contact me, I can be reached at pylonjigme@gmail.com.

Be Well,

Chris

mrlizard123
06-28-2012, 01:13 PM
Truth told, I am not sure just how kind Dan's offer is.......

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if he were anything other than pleasant in these meet ups

I wouldn't know about this. All I have is how he has responded to me and a chance to read the lines on his face from photos. As to the former, I have stated that most verbal issues are often resolved on the mats with a laugh and a beer.
I'd respectfully suggest that perhaps your intuition and face reading isn't, in this case, reliable
Hi Rick,

I actually wrote no conclusions or interpretations regarding my "reading" of Dan's face lines. You may be projecting.

I've included the thread that led me to this conclusion, the conclusion may be wrong but I'm not sure how you'd reach projection as a conclusion to my following this thread to what seems like a natural impression. I'm not clear what it is you imagine I'm projecting.

Apologies if I mis-interpreted your intention, I'm sure you can see how it could come across as I saw?

As to the imagery, I called it as I saw it.

I think using terms like carrion, buzzards, pyres and flame hold imagery that doesn't further making our points but appeals to emotions.

I could easily ask why no "dogs" are adding water either.

All the best
Rich

thisisnotreal
06-28-2012, 01:18 PM
I am still trying to figure out why I bother to post here myself....
Gary

i don't know either, but i do appreciate it. after a while reading what some of these people write i start to feel like i took a good strong crazy pill. Then I read the writings of yourself and a number of select others here and feel vindicated, validated, and not so alone. fwiw.

graham christian
06-28-2012, 01:43 PM
Graham
Peer review is generally a process of having your concepts, such as a concept of design, ideas for a new process, any thing really....say the building of a bridge using new materials or what could be seen as unusual untested methods, designs or new combinations of all of these, looked at critically by any number of others. Peer review involves many folks of varied disciplines within an organization as anyone of these folks may "see" something that has been missed by the originator, or the close design group around that individual. Any number of experiences that an individual may had, training they have undergone...may lead to questions that raise issues that need to be addressed. These folks can be just months on the job and many years. Peer review is not turning to your brother, one of your students or very close friends and asking how am I doing.

Your approach to spiritual..... to Spiritual Aikido...... seems to be your unique combination of any number of pieces and as such could be subject to outside peer review to get an honest assessment of the effectiveness of what you do.

Gary

O'K Gary. Thanks for that explanation. So let's take a look at it. Let's see what it is. Let's see how real it is.

Having my concepts, ways of doing, ideas, style, looked at critically by a number of others.

So I decided as I like writing certain things to practice poetry. I practiced until I felt I had discovered my own personal styles. I also thought I could write philosophical poetry which could be done specifically for an individual and would thus help that individual.

So I knew my purpose there and for general was just for others to enjoy.

When ready I proceeded to do it, at first for birthday messages etc. Soon many were asking me to write something for them. The local sainsburys insist I write their christmas poems each year. Others say how they have framed them and put them on their walls for inspiration.

So a little example of taking my style and unique way of poetry and using it and it being wanted and useful.

Did I ask for peers criticism? No.

Do I care what other critical experts in poetry think? Not one iota.

So do I care? No.

Now let's see. I had a few friends who I played football with. The club we were members of had the official 5 a side football team entering a competition. Those of the football world were all happy and then I said I want to play with my mates. Anyway, despite all the 'It's not that simple, and you need proper training and blah, blah, blah, by the so called peers a lady secretary of the club took pity and entered us also.

We met what was now the 'A' team in the semi finals and beat them and went on to win the final. That was the herts and beds (local counties) competition. As winners we get entered into the southern England champions competition. Win win that too. We go through to the Great Britain championships. We come runners up. A nice fun journey and experience.

Did we care what the peers said? No.

As a teenager their is extreme peer pressure to drink, to take drugs etc. Did I care about that? No.

In life I learn things "let's say nutrition for example". Ki atsu as another example.

Then I watch and listen to the medical people and ask stupid questions like "Well can't you actually cure that?" and get laughed at. Poor deluded fool. So I just go ahead and cure it. Do I care about peers? No. They can go and peer and waffle ad infinitum as far as I am concerned.

So I hope this puts some perspective on the matter.

So it is not a necessity or even needed, in fact for many it's nonsense. So where is it 'important?'

In organizations where someone wants it all as they say so, yes that's one place. Also in groups where the group 'mind' says it must be this way and our way is superior. Yes, it's standard there as well.

So insular, so controlling, such a load of nonsense.

Those in the Aikikai with it's structure and ways can thus be peers of fellow Aikikai peeps. To think they have the right to criticise, as peers, Tomiki people is to me arrogant. Etc.

Thus I say the use of the idea of peers being all important for progress or acceptance is a load of bull.;)

So let's get real shall we. Others, maybe doing a similar thing or maybe not, may get interested and want to share or feel or whatever. That's all good but it's nothing to do with "you must" The favorite words spoken by insecure control freaks.

I doubt if Musashi gave a monkeys what other peers thought. I doubt Boddhidharma did either. Or any other self determined individual.

No, it's all about self and facing the next challenge on your own path.

Peers needed for honest assessment? Don't make me laugh. That would take a very aware, honest, compassionate peer.

As with football, sports, life etc. those who are good at and can actually spot talent are very rare yet everyone thinks they are experts at it. Who picked Nixon?;)

When it comes to football England are very good at this peer thing and end up with a load of rubbish.:yuck: ;)

Peace.G.

DH
06-28-2012, 01:45 PM
When someone comes to a public forum and discusses things in an authoratative fashion and tells people they don't get it-they need to be responsible for the pushback.
I did it.
I got significant pushback. I took the responsible coarse of action and allowed naysayers to come as I knew the onus was on me to validate my ideas -then perceived as outlandish.

It is what it is. This is martial community. That standard -to be tested-is well documented and accepted. To refuse to do so, makes its own statement to the community. Like it or not, agree or not, accept it or no...if someone is actively dialoguing with a community, there are consequences both good and bad.
I accepted the responsibility of what I was saying.
Dan

graham christian
06-28-2012, 02:02 PM
When someone comes to a public forum and discusses things in an authoratative fashion and tells people they don't get it-they need to be responsible for the pushback.
I did it.
I got significant pushback. I took the responsible coarse of action and allowed naysayers to come as I knew the onus was on me to validate my ideas -then perceived as outlandish.

It is what it is. This is martial community. That standard -to be tested-is well documented and accepted. To refuse to do so, makes its own statement to the community. Like it or not, agree or not, accept it or no...if someone is actively dialoguing with a community, there are consequences both good and bad.
I accepted the responsibility of what I was saying.
Dan

So it's all about you? That way is the only way? That's a standard? Don't think so.

Is it even true what you say as I don't think you allowed naysayes to come as you paint the picture above. In your own words you have refused many for many different reasons. As has every person in charge of anything on this forum.

I don't mind swimming against the tide so you can all be a tidal wave, it doesn't matter to me. I think your painted images are very unreal. It sounds like the wild west sometimes to me.

Peace.G.

Gary David
06-28-2012, 03:14 PM
O'K Gary. Thanks for that explanation. So let's take a look at it. Let's see what it is. Let's see how real it is.

Having my concepts, ways of doing, ideas, style, looked at critically by a number of others.

Did I ask for peers criticism? No.

So do I care? No.

Did we care what the peers said? No.

As a teenager their is extreme peer pressure to drink, to take drugs etc. Did I care about that? No.

In life I learn things "let's say nutrition for example". Ki atsu as another example.

Do I care about peers? No. They can go and peer and waffle ad infinitum as far as I am concerned.

So I hope this puts some perspective on the matter.

So it is not a necessity or even needed, in fact for many it's nonsense. So where is it 'important?'

In organizations where someone wants it all as they say so, yes that's one place. Also in groups where the group 'mind' says it must be this way and our way is superior. Yes, it's standard there as well.

So insular, so controlling, such a load of nonsense.

Thus I say the use of the idea of peers being all important for progress or acceptance is a load of bull.;)

So let's get real shall we. That's all good but it's nothing to do with "you must" The favorite words spoken by insecure control freaks.

I doubt if Musashi gave a monkeys what other peers thought. I doubt Boddhidharma did either. Or any other self determined individual.

No, it's all about self and facing the next challenge on your own path.

Peers needed for honest assessment? Don't make me laugh. That would take a very aware, honest, compassionate peer.

Peace.G.

Graham
OK I think have .....have something here................

You mistake peer pressure...pressure to conform...with peer review which is an effort in an honest evaluation of something that is being presented.

If I step up and say this is the way, I can do it all, I have a clear understanding of what the real meaning was, the real intent is........... I would expect someone to raise a hand in question.... If I say that I can handle every situation, every individual, every occurrence....I would expect some one to raise a hand in question........ If I were to say my way is the way, that the rest of you have no clue, you don't get it, you don't/can't understand it..... I would expect someone to raise their hand in question.... When folks raised their hands you took it as pressure to conform.....and walled up......

As for me I am no ones lap dog

I have a small picture posted on my wall that sez "He won't site, He won't beg, He won't heel.... BAD DOG Built to bark......"

I also have the phrases up like:


Be Skeptical, but learn to listen
Live each day with courage
Be tough, but fair
Know where to draw the line
Remember that some things aren't for sale
Take pride in your work
Do what has to be done
Always finish what you start
Give allegiance and respect where they are deserved and returned
The world is what you think it is
There are no limits
Energy flows were attention goes
We are each responsible for our experiences
The point of power is always in the present moment
Bless the present, Trust yourself, Expect the best………


Having said all of this....I expect folks to offer their comments and opinions, whether asked for or not, I also expect that I will look at all of these, may ask others for their take on things and adjust as needed. It is also very likely that I would get out and see by personal contact were the reality rest.....but that is just me......

Bye the way, congrats on the fun time you had with the soccer.......

Gary

Jim Sorrentino
06-28-2012, 03:26 PM
I got significant pushback. I took the responsible coarse of action and allowed naysayers to come as I knew the onus was on me to validate my ideas -then perceived as outlandish.

It is what it is. This is martial community. That standard -to be tested-is well documented and accepted. To refuse to do so, makes its own statement to the community. Like it or not, agree or not, accept it or no...if someone is actively dialoguing with a community, there are consequences both good and bad.I accepted the responsibility of what I was saying.
DanLet the record show that not all naysayers "have been allowed to come," nor have any open seminars with Dan occurred. ;)

Further, let the record show that Dan has successfully prevailed several times upon both Jun Akiyama and Stan Pranin to delete entire threads when those discussions go in directions that Dan does not like.:disgust:

Finally, let the record show that Dan, unlike Graham and many others, steadfastly refuses to allow himself to be filmed, thus avoiding the kind of thoughtful, critical evaluation that he so generously shares with the readers of AikiWeb. :p

Jim

Marc Abrams
06-28-2012, 03:50 PM
Let the record show that not all naysayers "have been allowed to come," nor have any open seminars with Dan occurred. ;)

Further, let the record show that Dan has successfully prevailed several times upon both Jun Akiyama and Stan Pranin to delete entire threads when those discussions go in directions that Dan does not like.:disgust:

Finally, let the record show that Dan, unlike Graham and many others, steadfastly refuses to allow himself to be filmed, thus avoiding the kind of thoughtful, critical evaluation that he so generously shares with the readers of AikiWeb. :p

Jim

Jim Sorrentino always seems to rear his ugly head up when Dan is involved in some perceived controversy, because of his long-standing conflicts with Dan. Jim lacks the integrity to deal directly with Dan, rather he prefers to take pot shots, like this post and yet he wonders why Jun and Stan have deleted entire threads? Jim even tried to instigate Dan to appear at an Ushiro Sensei seminar, thinking that he could cause a problem for both Dan and Ushiro Sensei. Dan Harden, myself and Ushiro Sensei displayed the kind of upfront integrity that not only prevented that low-ball, backhanded, failed action, but helped to further strengthen my relationships with those men of honor.

Dan has been vetted in-person by multitudes of people who have commented about his skill sets. Now that you have taken your cheap pot shot, yet again, can we enjoy not reading your posts for awhile? I guess being in Washington, D.C. for so long, has not been good for your level of integrity.

Marc Abrams

DH
06-28-2012, 03:53 PM
Jim
What does this have to do with this thread?
I'll add them up. Just for you.
I think we're looking at something like 16 people out of over 1,100 seminar attendees. Some for being affiliated with you or another individual.

Many, who have come (who are even posting in this thread) were naysayers, some who spoke publicly against me, and many of those have now become friends. Three of them very good friends.

Jim
Since you now know of many people who have spoken highly of my efforts (and no I am not perfect), why is it you never mention that...at all?
Why is there no attempt at a fair hand?
Very good friends and supporters of you have openly rebuked you for it and sent me copies of their emails. They also spoke well of you to me.
Be kind, Jim.
It's time to let it go.

This interjection is irrelevant. Let's stay on topic.
Dan

DH
06-28-2012, 04:12 PM
The understanding of the mind/body connection had an ultimate yield. It was never a nebulous, spiritual whos who, tooth fairy, kitchen sink endeavor. It is a mind/body technology. The men who pursued it were substantial.
So reading modern corruptions in understanding from people lacking any power whatsoever places them outside...looking in from the jump. It should disqualify them at the start, but the real problem is that so many in Aikido are so unaware and uneducated that they can't take part either. They see the physical issues with their approach and they try to fix it with waza, movement and sadly- muscle. At least they see some of the failures in the model though and are trying to find better information.

The rather Ecumenical movement approach to group spirituality we are reading here does not apply to tried and true models of power building that exists in practice in Asia. Most notably those used for warriors, and the ones Ueshiba was quoting as his own methods for Aikido. Since the people lacking power don't truly have any idea of what it takes to produce power and aiki, what it looks like or feels like, or what to look for, they grasp at straws hoping for a positive outcome.

Interestingly, there actually was/is a spiritual/mind/body process with an ultimate yield that warriors and monks explored. None of what has been expressed here, has anything to do with that though. Ki as "universal energy" is just not going to get anyone there.
Dan

Comments Jim?
How, about something on topic, befiting an Aikido dojocho's professional position?
Dan

DH
06-28-2012, 04:18 PM
Do we really need Jun to remind us again to stay on topic? :confused:
Dan

Jim Sorrentino
06-28-2012, 04:19 PM
What does this have to do with this thread?It's as relevant as the post of yours that I cited above.
I'll add them up. Just for you.
I think we're looking at something like 16 people out of over 1,100 seminar attendees. Some for being affiliated with you or another individual.Thanks for agreeing with me.

Since you now know of many people who have spoken highly of my efforts (and no I am not perfect), why is it you never mention that...at all?There's no need for me to do so --- you and your students, acolytes, and proteges do quite a good job of it.
Very good friends and supporters of you have openly rebuked you for it and sent me copies of their emails. They also spoke well of you [U]to me.There's that argument from anonymous sources again (and supposedly private e-mails)...

Jim

graham christian
06-28-2012, 04:33 PM
Graham
OK I think have .....have something here................

You mistake peer pressure...pressure to conform...with peer review which is an effort in an honest evaluation of something that is being presented.

If I step up and say this is the way, I can do it all, I have a clear understanding of what the real meaning was, the real intent is........... I would expect someone to raise a hand in question.... If I say that I can handle every situation, every individual, every occurrence....I would expect some one to raise a hand in question........ If I were to say my way is the way, that the rest of you have no clue, you don't get it, you don't/can't understand it..... I would expect someone to raise their hand in question.... When folks raised their hands you took it as pressure to conform.....and walled up......

As for me I am no ones lap dog

I have a small picture posted on my wall that sez "He won't site, He won't beg, He won't heel.... BAD DOG Built to bark......"

I also have the phrases up like:


Be Skeptical, but learn to listen
Live each day with courage
Be tough, but fair
Know where to draw the line
Remember that some things aren't for sale
Take pride in your work
Do what has to be done
Always finish what you start
Give allegiance and respect where they are deserved and returned
The world is what you think it is
There are no limits
Energy flows were attention goes
We are each responsible for our experiences
The point of power is always in the present moment
Bless the present, Trust yourself, Expect the best………


Having said all of this....I expect folks to offer their comments and opinions, whether asked for or not, I also expect that I will look at all of these, may ask others for their take on things and adjust as needed. It is also very likely that I would get out and see by personal contact were the reality rest.....but that is just me......

Bye the way, congrats on the fun time you had with the soccer.......

Gary

Gary.
I gave various examples of peer, only one on peer pressure, I used your definition too.

Peer review. Who is anyone to review? In a system complete with heirarchy, more advanced, higher graded, peers then they may review and that would be very useful. That is standard. Albeit quite minor really, but standard none the less. The peers are of your style, your line, your organization, your world.

All others are not your peers. So I suggest most of you should review the words you use. So forget all this peer review nonsense when talking about someone outside of your organization and your world.

My training had plenty of review and testing thank you by my peers.

So what is it you and others here are saying? You and they are not my peers. You and they are unqualified to review therefor. You and they are only qualified for peer review with those doing the same style or way as you.

So anything you mean or are trying to say you need to reword.

What do you mean by accepting and expecting others comments and opinions and then asking others their views and then even going out to meet some maybe? You say it like it's something I don't do, have never done, am against.

I may have done this more than you so what's your point?

If I was to say.........(all those things) you put above? What's all that about?

Peace.G.

Gary David
06-28-2012, 05:00 PM
So what is it you and others here are saying? You and they are not my peers. You and they are unqualified to review therefor. You and they are only qualified for peer review with those doing the same style or way as you.

So anything you mean or are trying to say you need to reword.

Graham I don't have a clue who your peers are......it is a mystery group......but no matter......the truth being that you and I are not on the same page.....and likely will never be........

What do you mean by accepting and expecting others comments and opinions and then asking others their views and then even going out to meet some maybe? You say it like it's something I don't do, have never done, am against.

Can't tell from what you say here.....don't know where you have been and who you touched bases with in the Aiki world....

I may have done this more than you so what's your point?

You know you may have......but thanks for the thought...I'll take the time to sit down and make out a list of who I have trained with just for my own satisfaction.........

enjoy you journey........

Gary

graham christian
06-28-2012, 05:31 PM
Reality time people. All this waffle about what others should do and the way things are done whilst at the same time trying to imply I must this or that and imply I blah, blah, blah....

Well, as this is a thread on my Aikido and invites others to say things about their Aikido or indeed ask about mine I will show you something. That something is reality.That something is what Ueshiba says even in his rules of training. To the effect that each teacher can show you a part of Aikido, the rest is for you to learn through honest, sincere training. So who is anyone to tell me or you anything.

So here we go. I think many will relate to this:

When I entered Aikido I wanted to learn what was promised. The first thing, on the first lesson I wanted to learn was that unbendable arm. How the hell does that guy do that? My first challenge.

As time goes on every week spotting new challenges, got to learn that!

Anyway time goes on and many accomplishments later new challenges raise their head. I can now have a handle on most of the techniques but when it comes to those big guys....so next challenge.

Then strange ones like how come with that person I get stuck. How comes I seem to hold back with certain types of people, etc. So that's the next challenge and goal.

Note that the actual testing is all good but nothing compared to these personal challenges and goals. No comparison. These challenges are harder than the tests.

Then the challenge of what happens the moment someone picks up a bokken or weapon. One point gone, calmness? what's that? ....Next challenge, next goal. And so on and so on.

The negative mind can be a good teacher too, full of what if's and yeah buts. What if someone was using boxing? What if they were real thugs? What if someone kicks? What about outside? All new challenges, all new goals.

All stemming from doing one thing continuously, on a path.

Now what happens when you achieve these goals? These are the plateaus usually precede by some kind of epiphany.

What happened when you were stuck on let's say tai sabaki? You tried to do it but it didn't have the effect it should according to your teacher. So you practice.

Then you get good at it and you can do it to good effect sometimes, then quite often, then most times. Depending....

Depending on who, where, when, etc. So you practice on them. One fine day you find it doesn't matter who.

Now on another side of the coin. Teaching. Same cycle of learning happens there too.

This is real. This is reality.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-28-2012, 05:47 PM
Graham I don't have a clue who your peers are......it is a mystery group......but no matter......the truth being that you and I are not on the same page.....and likely will never be........

Can't tell from what you say here.....don't know where you have been and who you touched bases with in the Aiki world....

You know you may have......but thanks for the thought...I'll take the time to sit down and make out a list of who I have trained with just for my own satisfaction.........

enjoy you journey........

Gary

That's right Gary you don't know. Ahhh, enlightenment.

I don't know yours either and you know what? I don't need to.

Those I meet I may ask a few questions only just to get orientated as to what type of thing they do. That's all. That's all that's necessary. The rest is of little importance except for the self important.

I enjoy your explanations of what you do and how you do and your views on what you are into lately.

There are some on here who often visit my threads or say x, y, and z, to me but you know what? They never share what they do and how they do it and how they feel about what they do. Some have never asked "how do you do that?" even once. I find that weird. As a wing chun teacher of my friend used to continually shout when hearing such talk about who should and they should.."No politics!!!'

"I take you outside in a minute and show you some poltics!!!"

Peace.G.

gregstec
06-28-2012, 06:11 PM
I am a somewhat enlightened individual and I sense this thread being shut down shorty :) so, let me just say this: I believe Graham is a very spiritual fellow and spirituality leads every thing he does; including his Aikido. The thing is, he is very independent and follows his own path and not that of others - I am pretty much the same way (even my boat's name is Different Drummer based on Thoreau's writing) however, I am at polar opposites to most of his stuff, but I really admire the guy for being himself; and if there is an award for starting the most threads that get shut down, I am sure he will be a front runner :D

Greg

D-Ring
06-28-2012, 06:18 PM
Reality time people. All this waffle about what others should do and the way things are done whilst at the same time trying to imply I must this or that and imply I blah, blah, blah....

Graham, I've read quite a growing handful of your very authoritative discourses over the past year and I have a lot of respect for your tenacity in the face of some stiff criticism. Your OP is titled "My Spiritual Aikido" and as such I don't think I can comment on the objective value of what another person considers his spiritual philosophy. I've never seen Aikido as a particularly spiritual practice but if you do then I think that's great.

However, I also have to say that if you are holding up your spiritual Aikido as an effective martial methodology (which you do in many of your posts) then other folks have every right to ask for a demonstration of its effectiveness. The proof is in the pie, as they say. Can your "oneness" stop a serious attack? If so, how? And can you DEMONSTRATE it? This is a martial art, after all. Peer review in this genre happens when one guy's stuff works and the other guy's doesn't. (And then they go for beers.)

If there truly is a spiritual component to Aikido then it's this: the humility and gratitude I feel when I touch hands with someone better than myself and I learn something. Deep spiritual revelations are great but if they don't translate into practical skills its really all just a philosophy.

FWIW,

Dave

graham christian
06-28-2012, 07:13 PM
Graham, I've read quite a growing handful of your very authoritative discourses over the past year and I have a lot of respect for your tenacity in the face of some stiff criticism. Your OP is titled "My Spiritual Aikido" and as such I don't think I can comment on the objective value of what another person considers his spiritual philosophy. I've never seen Aikido as a particularly spiritual practice but if you do then I think that's great.

However, I also have to say that if you are holding up your spiritual Aikido as an effective martial methodology (which you do in many of your posts) then other folks have every right to ask for a demonstration of its effectiveness. The proof is in the pie, as they say. Can your "oneness" stop a serious attack? If so, how? And can you DEMONSTRATE it? This is a martial art, after all. Peer review in this genre happens when one guy's stuff works and the other guy's doesn't. (And then they go for beers.)

If there truly is a spiritual component to Aikido then it's this: the humility and gratitude I feel when I touch hands with someone better than myself and I learn something. Deep spiritual revelations are great but if they don't translate into practical skills its really all just a philosophy.

FWIW,

Dave

Thanks Dave and I agree with what you say.

If you have read many of my posts then you will see I oft say how it is effectve and martial too.

With that I therefor have demonstrated the fact thousands of times.

It doesn't happen quite as you say above I would say. I have met many from many different ways. So obviously I have demonstrated. So to do what anyone here says to do is something I have done non-stop for many years. So what's their problem? is what I ask myself.

I teach my way, others come to learn or experience. No ones ever disappointed. Most are 'enlightened' (with a small e) by the experience. The usual responses are either wow! or woah...

That's the best way I can put it.

You know, I find it strange putting things this way, even a little uncomfortable. For if I was to tell you the norm I would sound like some super salesman.

Oneness. Of course it can stop a serious attack. Is that not one of the things Aikido promises?

This I can demonstrate yes. In fact in a number of ways. So the how I would have to have some kind of idea as to where you are coming from so I could explain in a way suited to your understanding.

Peace.G.

stan baker
06-28-2012, 09:04 PM
I am really amazed at how some people can bullshit so much about aikido

stan

hughrbeyer
06-28-2012, 10:27 PM
:freaky: :eek: :crazy: :freaky:

Sifting some grains of gold from this stream of... Forgot what I was going to say.

In a pre-industrial mind ... spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.

"Cacaphony"? No. Symphony, maybe. In and Yo intertwining at every level, fractally, never in conflict, always balanced. Balanced in the world, balanced in me, balanced in each individual limb, balanced in each small part. In/Yo as a body practice, as something to be actively practiced, like practicing scales. So that I can be balanced in myself, balanced in facing my partner on the mat, balanced in the world.

Even something like global warming is evidence of balance. Man creates the opening with In, nature fills it with Yo. Man may get flattened in the process, but that's our own fault, now, isn't it?


Pirsig's book, one of my favorites, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, talks about this and I think his discussions are directly relevant to Aikido...The whole point of Pirsig's book was that this can't and shouldn't be a dichotomy, which I believe is your point as well.

...When I encounter someone whose technique is awesome and they have a solid understanding of the martial aside of the art, then I am apt to pay close attention to their ideas about spirituality. The technique is the bottom line because it's the part that you can't fake. Spiritual discussion without a real ability to manifest the principles in ones body on the mat is just disconnected, nice sounding wishful thinking.

Love Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and I love his conclusion: you change the world and your mind at the same time, together, until you bring them into harmony. Which requires the technical skill to change the world as well as the spiritual skill to control your mind. The two are synergistic, not contradictory.

On your point, I find that people who are serious and diligent tend to be serious and diligent no matter what they're doing. So if good martial artists tend to be worth listening to on spiritual issues, is this correlation or causation?

But I disagree that spiritual ideas can't be tested. There are a few tests:
--Does this resonate? Does it explain my experience? Does it help me understand myself?
--Does it work? Can I use this perspective to be more effective in the world? Does it help me deal with the situations I find myself in?
--Does it help me become the person I want to to be? Does it aid in growth?

graham christian
06-29-2012, 01:14 AM
Graham, I've read quite a growing handful of your very authoritative discourses over the past year and I have a lot of respect for your tenacity in the face of some stiff criticism. Your OP is titled "My Spiritual Aikido" and as such I don't think I can comment on the objective value of what another person considers his spiritual philosophy. I've never seen Aikido as a particularly spiritual practice but if you do then I think that's great.

However, I also have to say that if you are holding up your spiritual Aikido as an effective martial methodology (which you do in many of your posts) then other folks have every right to ask for a demonstration of its effectiveness. The proof is in the pie, as they say. Can your "oneness" stop a serious attack? If so, how? And can you DEMONSTRATE it? This is a martial art, after all. Peer review in this genre happens when one guy's stuff works and the other guy's doesn't. (And then they go for beers.)

If there truly is a spiritual component to Aikido then it's this: the humility and gratitude I feel when I touch hands with someone better than myself and I learn something. Deep spiritual revelations are great but if they don't translate into practical skills its really all just a philosophy.

FWIW,

Dave

Good morning again David. My reply to you part two.

Oneness and for that matter co-existence. Given and presented as spiritual things. Given and presented as inherent in Aikido. Given and presented as not only effective but essential to the efficacy and advanced ability in Aikido Given and presented as unifying and harmonious and the only barrier to doing it is self, no one else. Given and presented as without it there is fight and contest. With it there is no fight, no contest, only effective harmonious action rather than just effective action.

Spirit and spiritual are all to do with harmony and oneness and all embrasiveness and life thus Aikido fits spirit like a glove.

Mind is about data, arguments, memories, storage, survival, rightness, wrongness, fears, compulsions, insecurities, cravings for power etc.etc.

One must let go of one to achieve the other.

Peace.G.

sakumeikan
06-29-2012, 02:22 AM
I am really amazed at how some people can bullshit so much about aikido

stan

Dear Stan,
Bull Shit by the ton I would say!! Enough to fertilize the whole of China and have tons left.Cheers, Joe,

Mary Eastland
06-29-2012, 08:20 AM
Good morning again David. My reply to you part two.

Oneness and for that matter co-existence. Given and presented as spiritual things. Given and presented as inherent in Aikido. Given and presented as not only effective but essential to the efficacy and advanced ability in Aikido Given and presented as unifying and harmonious and the only barrier to doing it is self, no one else. Given and presented as without it there is fight and contest. With it there is no fight, no contest, only effective harmonious action rather than just effective action.

Spirit and spiritual are all to do with harmony and oneness and all embrasiveness and life thus Aikido fits spirit like a glove.

Mind is about data, arguments, memories, storage, survival, rightness, wrongness, fears, compulsions, insecurities, cravings for power etc.etc.

One must let go of one to achieve the other.
Peace.G.

Yes, and: Before the above mentioned can be let go of...the traits must be acknowledged and accepted. We can't let go of what we can't see and of what we don't own. It is so much easier to keep projecting it out onto other people.

The distractions of thinking that other people are the enemy are seductive.

It takes a lot of courage and fortitude to keep training when we find out who we are really battling.

mrlizard123
06-29-2012, 08:36 AM
Spirit and spiritual are all to do with harmony and oneness and all embrasiveness and life thus Aikido fits spirit like a glove.

Mind is about data, arguments, memories, storage, survival, rightness, wrongness, fears, compulsions, insecurities, cravings for power etc.etc.

One must let go of one to achieve the other.

That's unfortunate if it's a choice between spiritless and mindful or spiritual and mindless... I wasn't aware they were mutually exclusive.

I thought we couldn't tell people what they must do?

DH
06-29-2012, 09:21 AM
Yes, and: Before the above mentioned can be let go of...the traits must be acknowledged and accepted. We can't let go of what we can't see and of what we don't own. It is so much easier to keep projecting it out onto other people.

The distractions of thinking that other people are the enemy are seductive.

It takes a lot of courage and fortitude to keep training when we find out who we are really battling.
Other people can be your enemy and handling them kept you and your children alive. Comically, I have seen many Budo people who cannot handle their friends half-ass attack, so what does that say about their real skill?

None of your comments helps you do aiki. This is advice about a mental state with no real consequence in physical interactions.
There is no requirement of "letting go" to do anything with aiki. It sounds like more bad shihan advice...sort of like relax or eat more rice.
The state you are trying to arrive at has a technology that was known. It isn't hopeful..."Oh dear...I hope I "FEEEEL IT today at the dojo" mumbo jumbo. Nor does feeling it require letting go or being of correct mind or righteous spirit.

1. There were plenty of men with Ki, aiki, and skill who were of an aggressive mind.
3. Plenty who were inept physically who were of a refined mind and spirit.

These things are definitive and causal to action. Most people I have met were dabblers and really don't understand the fullness of what was being discussed. Others are only day dreaming about their physical skill level using their ki or spirituality. Warriors knew this and challenged men like this who claimed a developed state, but were actually cowards who never let themselves be put to the test.
I forget the the encounter but in one instance I thought profound; Mr. spiritual sated it would be nothing for him to defend himself against the warrior. The warrior said let's test that out. Mr. Spiritual replied something like it wasn't worth the effort. To which the warrior said in his best Jewish accent; So, what effort?

As Stan noted, most Aikido-ka realize the B.S. going on with so many "ki" and "spiritual" aikido people who have never and will never deliver on anything except with highly cooperative ukes. I just want to make sure the community knows the difference between the B.S.er's and the real people using Ki and aiki and a spirit/mind/body state that is devastating and truly yeilds power against real aggression....THAT HAS BEEN TESTED AGAINST FIGHTERS WITH SKILL.

Please don't throw out the reality and hope of the spirit/mid/body connection due to wankers who don't have their facts right, their history correct, and their lack of any real skill. The Pedagogy of Aikido is real and is commensurate with Asian knowledge of these things.
So dump the chakras making power, and the quasi Western Indian and new age who-do-voodoo, mishmash..."Oh, Oh, I think I feel it today, I am one with the cosmos..." and go back to the Asian model and we can learn real power building and aiki. Don't give up on Aikido's one true promise due to nonsense that will not help you actually have aiki in the first place. Your peers are pursuing it and making progress toward an achievable goal. One that, in the end, is going to just simply stop all of these others in their tracks when they try to "blend with it" and "achieve harmony" with their spirit.. as they are totally dominated and taken for a ride...on contact.
What does that say about the spirit in their aikido?
Is the one able to control the violence of the other...more developed?
Curious minds would like to know
Dan

Mary Eastland
06-29-2012, 09:45 AM
Thanks for your input, Dan. I see you don't get what I am talking about and that is ok. You just keep beating everybody. I see that works for you.
Have a great 4th and such.
Best,
Mary

DH
06-29-2012, 09:51 AM
Thanks for your input, Dan. I see you don't get what I am talking about and that is ok. You just keep beating everybody. I see that works for you.
Have a great 4th and such.
Best,
Mary
At a point people have to succeed. We can call it beating them or winning or whatever name is useful, but in the end it is about controlling agression. Even just getting out of the way....is controlling an outcome. Sure it can be an uplifting practice in the dojo that does indeed develop spirit, but it is a bu-do. I still find it peculiar for people to shy away from acknowledging the need for success while they wear budo clothing and swing weapons. Once we acknowledge that, it becomes a discussion of practical necessities in doing so.
Happy fourth as well to you and Ron.
Dan

Chris Knight
06-29-2012, 10:35 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but being a low grade and fair newbie, is Aikido supposed to be classified as a martial art or not? It appears that here we have a lot of people arguing that it has nothing to do with martial integrity and performance and is all about harmony in personal life situations. That's fair enough, but without fully immersing myself in the history of the art, could some-one enlighten (TM) me please??
It appears to me that everyone wants what O Sensei achieved with his untouchable Aiki and "compassion is everything" without going through the serious hard training to achieve that state?

when signing up for lessons, and from what I can gather my teacher, has always focused on the martial capability and effectiveness of the principles - and not whether I can reach a harmonious state through moving meditation, I'd leave that to the Yogi's

David Orange
06-29-2012, 10:38 AM
Spirit and spiritual are all to do with harmony and oneness and all embrasiveness and life thus Aikido fits spirit like a glove.

Mind is about data, arguments, memories, storage, survival, rightness, wrongness, fears, compulsions, insecurities, cravings for power etc.etc.

One must let go of one to achieve the other.

Graham, while I might readily accept that you have 'let go' of your mind, I'm not so sure you've ever grasped the essence of spirituality.

In the Chinese concept, mind is necessary to direct the spirit: "mind leads the ki, ki leads the body."

You attribute many negative qualities to mind, and only the rosiest things to spirit. But it is entirely possible to have a very bad spirit and, thus, to have very bad "spirituality".

Ignorance and distortion are two of the characteristics that turn a "spiritual leader" into a "cult leader", resulting in groups like Aum Shin Ri Kyo led by Shoko Asahara and The People's Temple, led by Jim Jones, both of which attempted mass murder in the name of their "spirituality," which they believed was far greater than mental understanding could approach.

The relation between mind and spirit, like that between body and mind or body and spirit, is a prime concern in the Chinese tradition and that carried through to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. It is a serious mistake to posit mind as somehow negative and spirit as only positive. It is equally mistaken to think that development of technical precision somehow undermines spiritual development. In the asian view, technical polishing is the vehicle for spiritual development and the mind is the "driver" of that vehicle. You have every right to see it differently, but that is also where your path diverges from real aikido and where you should stop preaching about aikido because you are seriously mistaken about it.

Jesus said, "Out of the abundance of the heart come the words of the mouth." And he was referring to lying and envy, hate and such. These come from the heart (spirit)--not from the mind. In the Chinese tradition, the mind is the necessary master that prevents the wild passions of the heart and spirit from consuming one's life and destroying others' lives. Applying the mind to perfection of physical technique is a prime tool for affecting one's spirit, in this view. Of course, all traditional wisdom has to come in through the mind and must be understood by the mind to be fully understood.

So spirit can be bad--even evil--and mind can be the discerning master that chooses which spiritual tendencies to feed and which to starve.

What I perceive in you is a burning need to establish yourself mentally and intellectually as a master of aikido among masters of aikido. What belies that status is your refusal to adhere to the traditional standard of "put up or shut up," which is the same as "put your money where your mouth is" or "prove what you claim." Your insistence on "mentally" presenting yourself with words (often very judgmental) where you physically will not present indicates a spirit that is badly mislead and unbalanced.

If it were not so, your actions would all be spiritual. You would not be reaching for our mental attention with so many words. All your posts are matters of mind and they reflect a spirit that cries out for correction. Dan, Marc, myself and many others try to give you what you are asking for, but you continually laugh it off and continue asking for more. We don't keep contradicting you for our own pleasure, but because you keep crying out for correction.

Good luck.

David

David Orange
06-29-2012, 10:39 AM
Yes, and: Before the above mentioned can be let go of...the traits must be acknowledged and accepted.

Yeah...that didn't work out so well for Shoko Asahara's followers, even though they acknowledged and accepted all those traits.

David

DH
06-29-2012, 10:40 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but being a low grade and fair newbie, is Aikido supposed to be classified as a martial art or not? It appears that here we have a lot of people arguing that it has nothing to do with martial integrity and performance and is all about harmony in personal life situations. That's fair enough, but without fully immersing myself in the history of the art, could some-one enlighten (TM) me please??
It appears to me that everyone wants what O Sensei achieved with his untouchable Aiki and "compassion is everything" without going through the serious hard training to achieve that state?

when signing up for lessons, and from what I can gather my teacher, has always focused on the martial capability and effectiveness of the principles - and not whether I can reach a harmonious state through moving meditation, I'd leave that to the Yogi's
Why not shoot for both?
Were Ueshiba to have NOT been martially effective...none of us would be here, none of the spiritual crowd would have followed him and none of these discussions would be going on.

Dan

lbb
06-29-2012, 10:40 AM
1. There were plenty of men with Ki, aiki, and skill who were of an aggressive mind.
3. Plenty who were inept physically who were of a refined mind and spirit.

Why is it always men who have this quality?

Seems like the word "men" keeps popping up in these discussions. A revealing slip of the tongue, perhaps?

DH
06-29-2012, 10:44 AM
Why is it always men who have this quality?

Seems like the word "men" keeps popping up in these discussions. A revealing slip of the tongue, perhaps?
Revealing just what?
That most of the warriors were men?
That men are more agressive by nature? And.....
Or are you looking for something in me that isn't there due to your own prejudices? Hmmm... ;-)
Seriously, I was talking past tense. Historically men were the ones known for these skills and the ones we most often follow.
No worries with me. Today, many times the people who get this quicker are women. And I continue to point it out in open rooms around the world. I also teach many women and couples....
Dan

David Orange
06-29-2012, 10:47 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but being a low grade and fair newbie, is Aikido supposed to be classified as a martial art or not? It appears that here we have a lot of people arguing that it has nothing to do with martial integrity and performance and is all about harmony in personal life situations. That's fair enough, but without fully immersing myself in the history of the art, could some-one enlighten (TM) me please??
It appears to me that everyone wants what O Sensei achieved with his untouchable Aiki and "compassion is everything" without going through the serious hard training to achieve that state?

when signing up for lessons, and from what I can gather my teacher, has always focused on the martial capability and effectiveness of the principles - and not whether I can reach a harmonious state through moving meditation, I'd leave that to the Yogi's

As I learned it, the environment of practice has to be very arduous and challenging, based on serious attack and highly effective response with aikido technique. Equally important, this must be done with the same state of mind as if we are sitting in zazen, motionless. The two are inseparable. Serious practice, mediated by calm, centered mind. With those two elements, continued training affects the spirit. Other approaches try to begin with the spirit, but ignore the body and completely lose the mind, as Graham advocates.

Best to you.

David

lbb
06-29-2012, 10:51 AM
Revealing just what?
Or you are looking for something that isn't there due to your own fears or prejudices?
Seriously, I was talking past tense. Historically men were the ones known for these skills and the ones we most often follow.
No worries with me. Today, the people who get this quicker are women. And I continue to point it out in open rooms around the world. I also teach many women and couples....
Dan

That's fine, but today, now, speaking of people in the present tense, the word "men" keeps coming up in your discussions. It's not a terribly common usage for you, but it does show up, and given that it's a very rare usage today unless the speaker specifically and exclusively refers to male human beings (the word "people" is far more likely to be used by contemporary speakers), I find it jarring and attention-grabbing when I see it. I can't think of a single other poster on aikiweb who I've ever seen use "men" in this sense.

Mary Eastland
06-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Why not shoot for both?
Were Ueshiba to have NOT been martially effective...none of us would be here, none of the spiritual crowd would have followed him and none of these discussions would be going on.

Dan

I agree, totally.

sakumeikan
06-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Why not shoot for both?
Were Ueshiba to have NOT been martially effective...none of us would be here, none of the spiritual crowd would have followed him and none of these discussions would be going on.

Dan

Dear Dan,
Considering I have spent over forty years of my life I sometimes wish I had pursued other activities.Aikido has given me highs but also lows. Not that I blame Ueshiba for this state of affairs.I should have done more than just aikido. Still Grandma Moses took up art at an advanced age.Maybe not too late?Cheers, Joe

DH
06-29-2012, 10:55 AM
The two are inseparable. Serious practice, mediated by calm, centered mind. With those two elements, continued training affects the spirit.
Best to you.

David
In the midst of a raging fire
a cool wind blows...

Other approaches try to begin with the spirit, but ignore the body and completely lose the mind, as _______ people advocates.
That won't work and the results are evidence to that fact.
As I stated earlier those practicing the correct path will simply own those following that model...on contact...thus they avoid us.
They will NEVER step on a mat with us to prove that their theory and ideas work. And that is all there is to it. I suspect that inside...they know it won't work themselves. :cool:
Dan

DH
06-29-2012, 11:00 AM
Dear Dan,
Considering I have spent over forty years of my life I sometimes wish I had pursued other activities.Aikido has given me highs but also lows. Not that I blame Ueshiba for this state of affairs.I should have done more than just aikido. Still Grandma Moses took up art at an advanced age.Maybe not too late?Cheers, Joe
Well, Bill Gleason has got you beat by four years and at 67 he switched to training in....Aiki-do instead of Aikido™ His students...around the world... are commenting and writing me about his change in feel.

Interview Bill Gleason
After 12 years under Yamaguchi telling me "Not soft enough!" and 32 years later I thought I had it down. Until I met Dan Harden. The first thing he said to me was "Not soft enough!"
(Yes he told me I could quote him)
Dan

DH
06-29-2012, 11:06 AM
That's fine, but today, now, speaking of people in the present tense, the word "men" keeps coming up in your discussions. It's not a terribly common usage for you, but it does show up, and given that it's a very rare usage today unless the speaker specifically and exclusively refers to male human beings (the word "people" is far more likely to be used by contemporary speakers), I find it jarring and attention-grabbing when I see it. I can't think of a single other poster on aikiweb who I've ever seen use "men" in this sense.
Oh good grief, Mary!!
Apparently, I think men should rule the world, women should obey, and we should remove female voting rights!!! :eek:

Dan
Fifty shades....darker than Grey!!!

lbb
06-29-2012, 11:38 AM
Oh good grief, Mary!!
Apparently, I think men should rule the world, women should obey, and we should remove female voting rights!!! :eek:


http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/

You don't have to address the point if you don't want to, Dan. It may be that 99.999999% of the entire planet believes that "men" and "people" are 100% interchangeable. Or, it may be that there are those, like me, who feel that that hasn't been true for decades. Whatever.

yugen
06-29-2012, 11:53 AM
http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/

You don't have to address the point if you don't want to, Dan. It may be that 99.999999% of the entire planet believes that "men" and "people" are 100% interchangeable. Or, it may be that there are those, like me, who feel that that hasn't been true for decades. Whatever.

I'm just a bystander, but to keep with the topic, are you saying the use of "men" instead of "people" in topic discussion has something to do with spiritual or their aiki application?

Regards,
Ryan

D-Ring
06-29-2012, 11:55 AM
If you have read many of my posts then you will see I oft say how it is effectve and martial too.

With that I therefor have demonstrated the fact thousands of times.

Graham, just because you say something is effective doesn’t mean you have demonstrated its effectiveness. You have some interesting ideas but I think you are a long way from making your case.

Oneness. Of course it can stop a serious attack. Is that not one of the things Aikido promises?

Yes, this is a promise made by some but I have yet to see it bear fruit. I would love to meet the kind of martial bodhisattva that I've heard speculated about; a person who can stop any aggression with the power of their love. So far I haven’t seen anyone who could actually shut down an attack by becoming spiritually one with the attacker. In my experience the concepts of oneness, unity and co-existence don't seem to translate into martial skill, at least not the way you're presenting them.

On the other hand, I would love to be wrong about this. It would justify the time a lot of people have spent in pursuit of their budo enlightenment. Like I said before, I have a lot of respect for you putting your views out there for people to critique. If you're ever willing to put your skills up to scrutiny in practical some way I'll take another look at your philosophy.

Dave

Tengu859
06-29-2012, 12:36 PM
This whole thread reminds me of the Nihon Kendo Kata...when the wrist is presented uchitachi attempts to cut it...there's an opening. IMO, that's what's happening here, lots of openings and lots of cuts. Some just don't see the openings...(I don't all the time either)!!! Anyway I couldn't resist. I'm weak and foolish!!! Thanks. :0)

ChrisW

PS What does this have to do with My spiritual Aikido? Nothing.

graham christian
06-29-2012, 12:49 PM
That's unfortunate if it's a choice between spiritless and mindful or spiritual and mindless... I wasn't aware they were mutually exclusive.

I thought we couldn't tell people what they must do?

Unfortunate you read it that way.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-29-2012, 12:53 PM
Graham, just because you say something is effective doesn't mean you have demonstrated its effectiveness. You have some interesting ideas but I think you are a long way from making your case.

Yes, this is a promise made by some but I have yet to see it bear fruit. I would love to meet the kind of martial bodhisattva that I've heard speculated about; a person who can stop any aggression with the power of their love. So far I haven't seen anyone who could actually shut down an attack by becoming spiritually one with the attacker. In my experience the concepts of oneness, unity and co-existence don't seem to translate into martial skill, at least not the way you're presenting them.

On the other hand, I would love to be wrong about this. It would justify the time a lot of people have spent in pursuit of their budo enlightenment. Like I said before, I have a lot of respect for you putting your views out there for people to critique. If you're ever willing to put your skills up to scrutiny in practical some way I'll take another look at your philosophy.

Dave

Just because I say it is does mean I have demonstrated it.

Not interested in scrutiny as the scrutinizers don't know what to scrutin.

However if you would like to learn how to then drop by one day.

Peace.G.

genin
06-29-2012, 12:55 PM
Yes, this is a promise made by some but I have yet to see it bear fruit. I would love to meet the kind of martial bodhisattva that I've heard speculated about; a person who can stop any aggression with the power of their love. So far I haven't seen anyone who could actually shut down an attack by becoming spiritually one with the attacker. In my experience the concepts of oneness, unity and co-existence don't seem to translate into martial skill, at least not the way you're presenting them.

On the other hand, I would love to be wrong about this. It would justify the time a lot of people have spent in pursuit of their budo enlightenment. Like I said before, I have a lot of respect for you putting your views out there for people to critique. If you're ever willing to put your skills up to scrutiny in practical some way I'll take another look at your philosophy.

Dave
Perhaps the ultimate goal of Budo is to reach a level of lovingness wherein you could influence and control those who would be otherwise uncontrollable. How this would be accomplished, or whether anyone is currently capable of doing it is another question entirely. I've previously discussed Gandhi and his ability to control and manipulate millions through love, inaction, and nonviolence. He and MLK jr. are among the few historical figures who have ever been able to do this on a large scale.

I do think that an enemy can be influenced by love and peace to a lesser extent. But love and peace are not something that should necessarily be done to invoke responses from other people. It is an individual state of being and a personal philosophy that governs one's life from within. If everyone embraced a life of peace there would be no need to utilize it to neutralize an adversary, as nobody would be adversarial towards one another. Love isn't something you can cast over someone to neutralize them when they are mad. It's a personal state of being that has limitless potential once others are able to see it and feel it for themselves.

graham christian
06-29-2012, 12:55 PM
Yes, and: Before the above mentioned can be let go of...the traits must be acknowledged and accepted. We can't let go of what we can't see and of what we don't own. It is so much easier to keep projecting it out onto other people.

The distractions of thinking that other people are the enemy are seductive.

It takes a lot of courage and fortitude to keep training when we find out who we are really battling.

Very well put.:cool:

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-29-2012, 01:02 PM
Graham, while I might readily accept that you have 'let go' of your mind, I'm not so sure you've ever grasped the essence of spirituality.

In the Chinese concept, mind is necessary to direct the spirit: "mind leads the ki, ki leads the body."

You attribute many negative qualities to mind, and only the rosiest things to spirit. But it is entirely possible to have a very bad spirit and, thus, to have very bad "spirituality".

Ignorance and distortion are two of the characteristics that turn a "spiritual leader" into a "cult leader", resulting in groups like Aum Shin Ri Kyo led by Shoko Asahara and The People's Temple, led by Jim Jones, both of which attempted mass murder in the name of their "spirituality," which they believed was far greater than mental understanding could approach.

The relation between mind and spirit, like that between body and mind or body and spirit, is a prime concern in the Chinese tradition and that carried through to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. It is a serious mistake to posit mind as somehow negative and spirit as only positive. It is equally mistaken to think that development of technical precision somehow undermines spiritual development. In the asian view, technical polishing is the vehicle for spiritual development and the mind is the "driver" of that vehicle. You have every right to see it differently, but that is also where your path diverges from real aikido and where you should stop preaching about aikido because you are seriously mistaken about it.

Jesus said, "Out of the abundance of the heart come the words of the mouth." And he was referring to lying and envy, hate and such. These come from the heart (spirit)--not from the mind. In the Chinese tradition, the mind is the necessary master that prevents the wild passions of the heart and spirit from consuming one's life and destroying others' lives. Applying the mind to perfection of physical technique is a prime tool for affecting one's spirit, in this view. Of course, all traditional wisdom has to come in through the mind and must be understood by the mind to be fully understood.

So spirit can be bad--even evil--and mind can be the discerning master that chooses which spiritual tendencies to feed and which to starve.

What I perceive in you is a burning need to establish yourself mentally and intellectually as a master of aikido among masters of aikido. What belies that status is your refusal to adhere to the traditional standard of "put up or shut up," which is the same as "put your money where your mouth is" or "prove what you claim." Your insistence on "mentally" presenting yourself with words (often very judgmental) where you physically will not present indicates a spirit that is badly mislead and unbalanced.

If it were not so, your actions would all be spiritual. You would not be reaching for our mental attention with so many words. All your posts are matters of mind and they reflect a spirit that cries out for correction. Dan, Marc, myself and many others try to give you what you are asking for, but you continually laugh it off and continue asking for more. We don't keep contradicting you for our own pleasure, but because you keep crying out for correction.

Good luck.

David

David. I see your reasoning based on your belief and view. Good. I don't agree though.

Peace. G.

David Orange
06-29-2012, 02:05 PM
Perhaps the ultimate goal of Budo is to reach a level of lovingness wherein you could influence and control those who would be otherwise uncontrollable.

Well, I've done similar things a number of times when people wanted to attack me, but then changed their minds. It happened, however, because I was willing and able to kill them. They subconsciously realized this and gave up their aggression.

Was that spiritual?

No, but the fact that I didn't proactively then attack them was an expression of my spirituality. If they attack me, they're going to get whatever it takes to stop them. If they don't attack me, I have no desire to attack them.

But just to stop someone with "lovingness" only....??? With no physical ability behind it?

We can look at the viral video of the "ki master" facing the kick boxer to get a good idea of where that's bound to go!

:D

David

genin
06-29-2012, 02:55 PM
... the fact that I didn't proactively then attack them was an expression of my spirituality.

I guess I'd have to agree with you on the grounds that I can't possibly quantify or qualify what an "expression" of spirituality consists of, particularly if that's unique to you. However, it sounds as though you not initiating attacks is simply your preferred style of combat. I'm the same way. But it's not because I'm afraid to hurt someone, it's because I don't want to get in legal trouble by starting a brawl. Is that really an expression of love? I don't think so.

Overcoming an enemy with love would look different than that. It's not a reluctance to fight backed by implied violence. It's wholly separate from anything violent or confrontational. Without getting too touchy feely by reciting a bunch of spiritual gobbledygook, I'll finish by saying that love and peace come from within. You can't expect to influence your enemy and change him unless you are able to draw this out from within him.

akiy
06-29-2012, 03:52 PM
Hi folks,

Let me simply repeat mysel:
The tone I'm seeing in this thread is becoming rather personal and disrespectful.

Please keep your posts directed at moving the discussion along in a positive manner. Please direct your efforts into discussing the topic rather than the people behind the topic.

Really, folks -- you all know better than to engage in the manner that I'e seen you engaging in this thread. And, you know who you are. So, I'm going to write in all caps to, hopefully, communicate the frustration I feel when I encounter the kinds of interactions I see in this thread.

FOLKS, LEARN TO MODERATE YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR FIRST AND FOREMOST. SO MANY TIMES, I SEE PEOPLE WHOM I KNOW TO BE FINE, UPSTANDING HUMAN BEINGS IN "REAL LIFE" SOMEHOW FEEL COMPELLED TO BE OTHERWISE HERE ON AIKIWEB. PERHAPS DUE TO THIS BEING "ON THE INTERNET," A DIFFERENT SET OF BEHAVIOR HERE SEEMS ACCEPTABLE FOR YOU. STOP IT -- JUST STOP IT.

BE RESPECTFUL. BE CIVIL. CONTRIBUTE POSITIVELY TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.

THAT'S ALL I'M ASKING FOR, FOLKS.

Thanks,

-- Jun

akiy
06-29-2012, 04:04 PM
PS: Thread closed due to its becoming a "train wreck."

-- Jun