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Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 12:53 PM
I don't know...
The community isn't exactly equal along all parts of the spectrum, is it? It's easy to say just ask someone you trust to ask someone they trust and so on, but it doesn't always actually work so easily as that, as far as I can tell. Plus there's a bit of a process which takes time for that kind of thing...which also varies based on the particulars of where in the community we're at.
I've asked a variety of people to give their impressions on people and recieved practically nothing in return. People aren't always helpful where we would like them to be.
When it comes to engaging a conversation we're all equals. When it comes to understanding that conversation we're not all equals. Tom's describing the first part, as I see it.
I still think the biggest hudle isn't people thinking they know more than they do. I think it's conventions in language and personality.
Like I said though, I don't know.

Also, to comment on my earlier remarks about "sticky," David made a good distinction (as far as I can tell). I have no real familiarity with Wing Chung sticky hands drills, so they are probably quite different.
Be excellent to each other,
Matt
Hi Matthew,
This is exactly the point; in engaging a dialogue we are all equal. And is this not the basis of what we do in daily life? Or in science? Or in politics? It is historically and philosophically of utmost importance, but in daily life we do not even expect it to be otherwise. We experience it as normal without ever questioning it. So it is odd if this becomes such an issue on this forum.
You are right, in understanding we are not equal. In acquering knowledge and skills we are not equal.
One person my be an excellent musician while the other person is a skilled carpenter. They are not equal, yet should be able to respect each other's skills and experience. If it is about music the carpenter should be willing to listen to the musician, if it is about building a violin the musician should be willing to listen to the carpenter.

To trust the community to establish who has a better level of validity is not only not practical, it is dangerous. It is as if we are saying "if so many people see this as the truth, then it must have some point of value". Or worse "then it must be true". These are fallacies. It may work on a smaller scale, like when your neighbour would say; "you should go to this butcher, he is really good and cheap too". But it does not work as a basic principle. We see this all too often in politics, when we vote for a person because we get the impression from everyone that he is the best choice, while we never take time to learn about their real views and argumentation. Worst case scenario; Germany, 1930's.

Thank you for these words; "be excellent to each other", they are beautiful!

Gassho,

Tom

hughrbeyer
06-18-2012, 01:11 PM
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.

Chris Li
06-18-2012, 01:17 PM
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

:D

Best,

Chris

RonRagusa
06-18-2012, 01:53 PM
Everyone on this forum has an equal right to post and comment on any thread. It is up to the reader to determine how much weight to give other peoples' posts. The idea that certain people should sit back and not post on certain subjects while their "betters" carry on lofty conversations reminds me of Saurman's dialog with Gandalf from The Two Towers by J. R. R. Tolkien:

"Saruman paused... 'Are we not both members of a high and ancient order, most excellent in Middle-earth?... Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk! Let them wait on our decisions!'".

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 02:02 PM
You blend three very distinct ideas into one. First, yes, this is a public forum. No disagreement there.

However, 2 and 3 are not to be confused or combined. First, some people are immenently more qualified to discuss certain subjects than others. For instance, if Graham Christian who has very little ability to read, write, or translate Japanese start telling Peter Goldsbury or Chris Li that their translations are wrong ... well, you might as well say the Earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and the sky is neon green with purple polka dots. Peter and Chris are extremely more qualified and their words are well more valid in discussing Japanese translations than either Graham or me.

If you're supposed to sit in a Space Shuttle to go to the space station, who do you want talking and working out the details? Jay Leno or NASA Engineers?

Doesn't matter how Jay Leno formulates his arguments or what he says, if you listen to him, you'll either never get there or die trying. NASA Engineers have an excellent track record. Not every opinion is true or valid. Not every opinion should be listened to.

Finally (your third point), disavowing the principles of conduct in a dialogue ... that goes both ways. If some soke grandmaster of DimMak ryu shows up and he has almost no background in aikido except glancing at forums and reading some books comes on here telling everyone what Morihei Ueshiba really meant ... those people who defend this "soke" have violated and disavowed the principles of conduct in a dialogue.

I am not really sure what your point is here?

This is only about a practical structure for making us able to come to an understanding or an exchange of ideas in a conversation, in a discourse.

You say you accept the argument that this is a public forum. Yet you dismiss the consequences?

I really do not understand what your second point is. I do not know Peter Goldsbury in person, as far as I know he is a graecus. My knowledge of greek is very limited. But over the years I have studied the (translated) works of Plato quite a bit and a long time ago I followed lectures by a wellknown Dutch professor in classical philosophy. I assure you that if the occassion would rise, him and I might have an interesting conversation on for instance furutama. No doubt that he is far more knowledgeable then me and can say much more on the subject then I. Some of the arguments that I would come up with could very well be succesfully challenged by him.

And what is exactly the problem with that?

It seems to me that that only proves my point; in a proper dialogue you create the possibility to exchange ideas or to learn something or in a dialectic way, come to a new conclusion.

But because Peter Goldsbury is more knowledgeable in greek or classical philosophy then me I would not be allowed to express an opinion on Plato, ask questions or come up with a counterargument (valid or non-valid)? Is that your point?

We are not in a space shuttle. We are not aboard a ship. We are not in an operating theatre. And we are not in a dojo either. The rules of engagement that I mention are about a conversation, a dialogue! Or a discourse in writing.
What you are talking about is a situation where you need a person of authority, an authority that is well established before the intended action.
I am talking about a situation during the action (a dialogue) where the authority of a person is shown by the arguments.

How is your third point a counter-argument? I do not follow this.

All the best,

Tom

MM
06-18-2012, 02:05 PM
Everyone on this forum has an equal right to post and comment on any thread. It is up to the reader to determine how much weight to give other peoples' posts. The idea that certain people should sit back and not post on certain subjects while their "betters" carry on lofty conversations reminds me of Saurman's dialog with Gandalf from The Two Towers by J. R. R. Tolkien:

"Saruman paused... 'Are we not both members of a high and ancient order, most excellent in Middle-earth?... Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk! Let them wait on our decisions!'".

First, it is not a right at all. It is a privilege. Secondly, while a public forum, it still falls under certain rules, so again, there is no right to post, let alone an equal right. It's like saying just because there are public roads, every single human being has a right to drive on them.

And while in the scope of the public forum, people *can* post, it is not equivalent that all people posting have valid opinions, theories, or logic.

How about quoting the US Constitution? It's been around longer than Tolkein, has more weight, better men behind its creation, and is founded upon reality rather than fantasy. See paragraph on opinions above.

TimB99
06-18-2012, 02:10 PM
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.

Funny.. I was just wondering this morning when it'd show up in here :rolleyes:

Yahhh...

Anywho, I'm not sure if I understand Tom correctly here, but the point I'm getting is that because all people are equal and all people have equal right to voice their opinions, etc., a geneticist has an equally valid opinion when it comes to human reproduction, as a stork theorist? Am I correct in assuming this?

MM
06-18-2012, 02:12 PM
One person my be an excellent musician while the other person is a skilled carpenter. They are not equal, yet should be able to respect each other's skills and experience. If it is about music the carpenter should be willing to listen to the musician, if it is about building a violin the musician should be willing to listen to the carpenter.

Gassho,

Tom

My point is that if you get a 6 year old to come into this forum, who has never been a carptenter, never been a musician, and only read 1st grade level books about the subjects, and starts telling the musician and the carpenter how to do their jobs, then according to many, that 6 year old should be able to do such. I'm saying it would not be allowed in person, why should it be allowed here? Not all opinions are valid, nor should all opinions be listened to. Just because some chant the chants, sing the songs, and put on the costumes, it does not equate to having knowledge or having skill or having valid opinions.

Mark

graham christian
06-18-2012, 02:18 PM
Everyone has an equal right to post and it's privilege to read. The forum is a road and we are all in our cars.;)

Some get a bit of road rage though as they think they own the road:)

Peace.G.

RonRagusa
06-18-2012, 02:29 PM
First, it is not a right at all. It is a privilege.

Registering for an account gives you, me or anyone else the right to post.

Secondly, while a public forum, it still falls under certain rules, so again, there is no right to post, let alone an equal right. It's like saying just because there are public roads, every single human being has a right to drive on them.

I'd like to read the rules but cannot find a link to where they're written down. Can you provide me with one?

And while in the scope of the public forum, people *can* post, it is not equivalent that all people posting have valid opinions, theories, or logic.

I was not addressing that issue. Other than to say it's up to the reader to decide. I don't need you or anyone else deciding for me.

Ron

Hellis
06-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Everyone has an equal right to post and it's privilege to read. The forum is a road and we are all in our cars.;)

Some get a bit of road rage though as they think they own the road:)

Peace.G.

It is easy to avoid you on the forum - I would hate to meet you on the road, if you drive?

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

graham christian
06-18-2012, 02:35 PM
It is easy to avoid you on the forum - I would hate to meet you on the road, if you drive?

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Funny how I keep bumping into you on this road ;) Meet me on the road? What would you do? You're in the car and I am on the zebra crossing......:eek:

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 03:07 PM
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.

Mathew and Chris, avoiding like the plague any reference to Nazi Germany, I would say that I look for that spark of inspiration from everywhere - even a novice at my projects. That is the essence of "surrender" and in surrender, one finds inspiration flooding down from the heavens.

Thus says Rumi, "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment."

If experts determine what is acceptable without such surrender and openness, we have as Tom suggests, a model that is closed. The Inquisition has been referenced in this thread already. Who's position would you have sided with? The Catholic Church or Copernicus. Your above arguments suggest the former.

Our greatest challenge in groups is to balance the wisdom of the group while remaining open to newness that can strike like lightening or dance about your shoulder like a butterfly. Horton heard the who, but no one else did.

Mass insanity seems very sane when you are in the midst of it. I, for one, refuse to drink fluoride in my water or use it in my toothpaste. And I am especially perplexed why we would get this fluoride from China... The government authorities and the masses seem like blind Zombies to me. The church
authorities were also blind to any idea of the earth being round also.

It takes faith in one's inner voice and much courage to go against the herd. It takes surrender to listen deeply to all voices, knowing that inspiration is just begging to lite up one's creativity.

Blessings,

Chris

Hellis
06-18-2012, 03:13 PM
Funny how I keep bumping into you on this road ;) Meet me on the road? What would you do? You're in the car and I am on the zebra crossing......:eek:

Peace.G.

Graham

If it was dark and I thought I just had a chance of getting away with it, I would have to go for it, no ill feeling :yuck:

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

mathewjgano
06-18-2012, 03:20 PM
My point is that if you get a 6 year old to come into this forum, who has never been a carptenter, never been a musician, and only read 1st grade level books about the subjects, and starts telling the musician and the carpenter how to do their jobs, then according to many, that 6 year old should be able to do such. I'm saying it would not be allowed in person, why should it be allowed here? Not all opinions are valid, nor should all opinions be listened to. Just because some chant the chants, sing the songs, and put on the costumes, it does not equate to having knowledge or having skill or having valid opinions.

Mark

Depending on the nature of the forum, I would be one of the people who thinks a 6 year old should be able to do so. I don't believe in censoring anyone, no matter how ignorant. The best we can do in a forum like this is to offer a counterpoint that is, hopefully, reasonable and eloquent enough to stand on its own; which demonstrates the weaknesses of said 6 year old's understanding. If people cannot tell the difference, they should bear in mind the variety of opinions, conduct their own process of study, and learn enough so that they can.
You say not all opinions should be listened to. I fervently disagree except where the rules established by those who own the forum would preclude it. Organizations get to determine criteria for who gets to be an authority, public spaces not so much. If Jun ever decides to impose his will in this regard that is his right, not yours. Hence, within the context of this "space," which is the one we're talking about, I think we all get to voice our opinions (even relatively ignorant fools like me...and I do fit that description) until deemed too uncivil by the measure of the moderator.
My two bits.
Take care,
Matt

graham christian
06-18-2012, 03:22 PM
Graham

If it was dark and I thought I just had a chance of getting away with it, I would have to go for it, no ill feeling :yuck:

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry, you may go for it but alas I'm an expert at tyre-sabaki and if you're in a van I'm also good at vandori. Watch out for the little old lady though.......:dead:

Peace.G.

Chris Li
06-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Mathew and Chris, avoiding like the plague any reference to Nazi Germany, I would say that I look for that spark of inspiration from everywhere - even a novice at my projects.

Sure, I have never, anywhere, said otherwise - so I don't quite see your point...

Best,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 03:42 PM
Sure, I have never, anywhere, said otherwise - so I don't quite see your point...

Best,

Chris

Only that inspiration can come from anywhere. Even that six year old. It may or may not come within the data or logic of his argument. It may come from from such as well.

That is why I say, "buy bewilderment". I Iive in awe most all of the time. I have been inspired by literally everyone on this thread. A word, an attitude. A conflict. A humility or an aggression have opened their mystery to me while reading these texts. Inspiration comes and I have great joy.

Time to go beyond ideas of right and wrong. While some say the glass is half full and others say it is half empty. I choose to drink it up with pleasure.

If you feel the same way, say hooray!

Chris

Hellis
06-18-2012, 03:52 PM
Henry, you may go for it but alas I'm an expert at tyre-sabaki and if you're in a van I'm also good at vandori. Watch out for the little old lady though.......:dead:

Peace.G.

Graham

You may be dressed in disguise as a little old lady, but that woolie rainbow coloured hat will be a dead give-away :D

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 04:02 PM
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.

Well, that in itself is a good counter-argument.

The problem is of course that it is such a major event in history, where so many people were involved as perpetrator or as victim, where so many people made the wrong choices, where so many of our till then accepted values and truths were lost and where the pain of that period can still be felt that if one does not tread carefully your are bound to come to some reference to it.
And true enough when such a reference comes up too often the argument looses much of is strength.

But it is at the same time difficult to avoid the number ten if you adding up 5+3+2.

When you do not accept the fact that people are all equal, that in a discussion each person has an equal level of validity, when you start saying things like "it is a modern problem that we no longer believe in elites" and "when lots of trustworthy people trust someone...", then in what direction do you think the discussion is going?

While I agree that references to the 1930's have been used everywhere ad nauseam, you cannot always escape the argument by simply refering to Godwin's Law.
Besides that I have given you valid answers to all your arguments. Leaving by refering to Godwin's Law is the easy way out.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 04:11 PM
Funny.. I was just wondering this morning when it'd show up in here :rolleyes:

Yahhh...

Anywho, I'm not sure if I understand Tom correctly here, but the point I'm getting is that because all people are equal and all people have equal right to voice their opinions, etc., a geneticist has an equally valid opinion when it comes to human reproduction, as a stork theorist? Am I correct in assuming this?

No, you are wrong. That is a completely wrong way of reasoning.

And it does not come even close to what I was explaining.

Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 04:21 PM
"Taking one's marbles and going home" is not true dialogue. It reek's of elementary school level emotional reactivity.

So does saying such things and then not following through with silence. Part of "clarity" is clarity of speech, Sans the emotional reactivity. Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay. Honor others with your best speech and let the forum evaluate it, receive it or reject it. Either way, it is your's. You need no group to validate you. Your clarity and logic is your validation. Give your best and stand on it's merit.

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 04:25 PM
My point is that if you get a 6 year old to come into this forum, who has never been a carptenter, never been a musician, and only read 1st grade level books about the subjects, and starts telling the musician and the carpenter how to do their jobs, then according to many, that 6 year old should be able to do such. I'm saying it would not be allowed in person, why should it be allowed here? Not all opinions are valid, nor should all opinions be listened to. Just because some chant the chants, sing the songs, and put on the costumes, it does not equate to having knowledge or having skill or having valid opinions.

Mark

Well at least you are getting warmer. I completely agree; not all opinions are valid. And for sure, not all opinions should be listened to. And as far as chanting the chant etc, you are right it does not equate to having skill or valid opinions.

There is no discussion there. I agree, you are right!

But it is not the point that I was trying to get across.

Tom

hughrbeyer
06-18-2012, 04:43 PM
Sorry, Tom, but the Nazis were such outliers that using them as a parallel to almost anything is simply hysteria. It short-circuits any rational argument. That's the point Godwin was making. Let's see, AikiWeb is like Nazi Germany how?

The problem I have with all these arguments is that they confuse what people may do with what it is wise to do. Yes, you have every right, using the term colloquially, to show up here and spout off on subjects you know nothing about. People have been known to do that. And everyone else has the right to tell you what a fool you're making of yourself. If that doesn't make you happy, consider that you're the one who let yourself in for it.

As for the role of expertise... if we were talking mathematics, and kept insisting that the PhD mathematicians repeatedly walk novices through basic algebra, they'd have some right to be annoyed. And that's in a theoretical realm, where such an online review is possible.

Our topic is not entirely amenable to rational analysis, which is, Tom, where your argument breaks down. Most of what we're talking about can only be worked out on the mat. And even where it's not an IHTBF problem, much of it is simply about experience. If I'm told weightlifting is going to make my MA less effective, what rational basis am I going to argue from?

So yeah, argument and debate is fun. But when the chips are down, what really matters is who's got the goods--and who's willing to teach it. There's the folks I respect, and the folks who have the respect of the folks I respect. There are folks who respect the folks I respect, which indicates good taste and possibly that they are trying to achieve something similar in their abilities. And then there are a few who don't fit into that network but sound like rational people, so I'm inclined to consider their opinions seriously until given a reason not to.

All very messy and irrational. But in the end, that's what a community is.

mathewjgano
06-18-2012, 04:47 PM
Time to go beyond ideas of right and wrong. While some say the glass is half full and others say it is half empty. I choose to drink it up with pleasure.

If you feel the same way, say hooray!

Chris

Huzzah! ...oops...hooray! This isn't to say I believe we shouldn't include a sense of right and wrong. Testing what we know necessitates some sense of them; here where we cannot test what we know except in the measure of logical appearances, it's not as important.
Where appropriate, let everyone interact. At the least, it gives us familiarity with those ill informed opinions so we can, hopefully, address them better down the line.
We can't always control what others think or do, but I'd rather we invite folks into the light where we can openly discuss and offer counterpoint than to push them away where we have absolutely no ability to interact. In a place like this, interaction is the point, as I see it; not being right or wrong.

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 04:53 PM
Depending on the nature of the forum, I would be one of the people who thinks a 6 year old should be able to do so. I don't believe in censoring anyone, no matter how ignorant. The best we can do in a forum like this is to offer a counterpoint that is, hopefully, reasonable and eloquent enough to stand on its own; which demonstrates the weaknesses of said 6 year old's understanding. If people cannot tell the difference, they should bear in mind the variety of opinions, conduct their own process of study, and learn enough so that they can.
You say not all opinions should be listened to. I fervently disagree except where the rules established by those who own the forum would preclude it. Organizations get to determine criteria for who gets to be an authority, public spaces not so much. If Jun ever decides to impose his will in this regard that is his right, not yours. Hence, within the context of this "space," which is the one we're talking about, I think we all get to voice our opinions (even relatively ignorant fools like me...and I do fit that description) until deemed too uncivil by the measure of the moderator.
My two bits.
Take care,
Matt
Matthew,
Well put. I think we all know about children with certain talents that where as good as or even better as grown ups. Just think about Mozart.
As far as opinions are concerned, it is a bit like books. I do not read every book that is available, I make my own choices out of what I can find. And some books I like, some books I really love, but there are always books that I have no knowledge of, or worse, that I do not like. The last ones I will most likely not read. And I have seen a lot of books filled with nonsense. But even though I do not like these books, I will fight for the right to get them printed.
It is the same with opinions. I do not feel like reading everything on this forum, there is a lot of quantity on AikiWeb, less quality. Besides that there is not alway enough time. So I make choices. But whether I know of someones opinion, or whether it is new to me, whether it is strange or funny, whether I agree with it or not, I find it of vital importance that everyone has the same right to express himself.
Untill it becomes too uncivil - I could not agree more.
Gassho,
Tom

TimB99
06-18-2012, 05:06 PM
When you do not accept the fact that people are all equal, that in a discussion each person has an equal level of validity, when you start saying things like "it is a modern problem that we no longer believe in elites" and "when lots of trustworthy people trust someone...", then in what direction do you think the discussion is going?


Well at least you are getting warmer. I completely agree; not all opinions are valid. And for sure, not all opinions should be listened to. And as far as chanting the chant etc, you are right it does not equate to having skill or valid opinions.

There is no discussion there. I agree, you are right!

But it is not the point that I was trying to get across.

Tom

I am thoroughly confused..

sakumeikan
06-18-2012, 05:11 PM
I am thoroughly confused..

Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe

graham christian
06-18-2012, 05:46 PM
I am thoroughly confused..

I'm not confused.

Each person is valid. Equal level of validity.

Their opinion may or may not be valid or worth listening to. Simple.

That's why getting personal or implying who can or can't is the destructive element.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 06:16 PM
That which has sunstance, needs no defense.
That which has no substance, cannot be defended and folks will walk away from it.

Absorb what is useful. discard the rest.
~Danny Inosanto~

waging peace,

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 06:28 PM
Sorry, Tom, but the Nazis were such outliers that using them as a parallel to almost anything is simply hysteria. It short-circuits any rational argument. That's the point Godwin was making. Let's see, AikiWeb is like Nazi Germany how?

The problem I have with all these arguments is that they confuse what people may do with what it is wise to do. Yes, you have every right, using the term colloquially, to show up here and spout off on subjects you know nothing about. People have been known to do that. And everyone else has the right to tell you what a fool you're making of yourself. If that doesn't make you happy, consider that you're the one who let yourself in for it.

As for the role of expertise... if we were talking mathematics, and kept insisting that the PhD mathematicians repeatedly walk novices through basic algebra, they'd have some right to be annoyed. And that's in a theoretical realm, where such an online review is possible.

Our topic is not entirely amenable to rational analysis, which is, Tom, where your argument breaks down. Most of what we're talking about can only be worked out on the mat. And even where it's not an IHTBF problem, much of it is simply about experience. If I'm told weightlifting is going to make my MA less effective, what rational basis am I going to argue from?

So yeah, argument and debate is fun. But when the chips are down, what really matters is who's got the goods--and who's willing to teach it. There's the folks I respect, and the folks who have the respect of the folks I respect. There are folks who respect the folks I respect, which indicates good taste and possibly that they are trying to achieve something similar in their abilities. And then there are a few who don't fit into that network but sound like rational people, so I'm inclined to consider their opinions seriously until given a reason not to.

All very messy and irrational. But in the end, that's what a community is.

Hugh,
Thank you for coming back to me and the discussion.

I never even intended to go even remotely into the direction of AikiWeb is like ...
As I said, it is the piling up of statements that were way too similar to that period that brought that point up. I wish that I had come up with another example.

Most interactions between human beings are messy, irrational and even downright silly. Only once in a while we meet someone with whom everything seems to be going smooth from day one. And some are more lucky in that then others. Off all the animals humans are the most aggressive. A lot of people even in modern times answer violence with more violence. Some have found ways to cope with it in a different way. The reigi of the samurai are a good example. By practicing politeness set in a particular form the samurai managed to control violence and to communicate with a each other, even with potential adversaries. The reigi was only meant for samurai, not for common people. Very much like the rules of conduct of the European knights.

There are many different ways of dealing with physical or verbal violence. The principles that we use for dialogue are an example of a way of proper conduct in order to communicate with each other. It is no coincidence that the original principles were for a large part formed by warriors.

I am well aware that these principles have their limits. They are based on the idea that dialogue is kept rational and logic. That people try their best to give a good and valid formulation. Previously I already stated that some people by behaving like a filibuster, deliberately try to undermine the dialogue. If we leave the last example aside, then in general it should be possible to have a proper dialogue where we accept valid reasoning and discount invalid arguments on just about every subject.

Up till now I have not found a single subject on AikiWeb where these principles would not apply.
Because of this there is no need to bring in an a priori invalid principle as one person who has more validation then another. Of course there are persons with more skills and knowledge then others. But that makes them only more capable to deal with the arguments of those who have less experience.

And sure, I have seen people come up with ideas that were wrong, misinformed, opinionated, or not wise to make. I myself have had to admit to a few mistakes. But why would that bother you? That is the way a dialogue is supposed to work.

As far as the limits of dialogue or rationality goes; there are things in life that are difficult to express in words, things where an argumentative approach does not work, things that we should not even try to put into words, let alone bring them up in a debate. Things that we should be silent of, to repeat Wittgenstein.
If we want to express these things then we should search for other means; poetry, painting, sculpting, singing, giving an Aikido embu,...

Some of the things that are talked about here on this forum are better to be experienced on the tatami - I completely agree with you!
But then why bring it up on this forum? For then you are subject to reasonable en logic argumentation.

Take care,

Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 06:36 PM
Wittgenstein rocks.

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 07:08 PM
I mean, here is a perfect example of inspiration. Here's a guy that is the wealthies man in Europe and gives it all away. He feels hindered by the professors at Cambridge so he leaves them so he can think more creatively.. He has no degree, but writes what is likely the most famous treatise in 20th century philosophy. Instead of teaching, he goes to war in WWI and returns highly decorated. And again, in WWII, he becomes a hospital porter. He had no PhD but folks called him God. They just had to give him one so Cambridge would feel good about allowing him to lecture.

And, he was a friend of Rilke.


Would this forum have recognized him if he were a contributor???????????


I have given my life to meeting folks like this. And I have met them. And i look forward to meeting the next one. Is it you??????? Or you????? Or you???

bewildered and joyful.

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 07:11 PM
I am thoroughly confused..
Well, let me try an effort to make it clearer to you. Although I have the feeling I am starting to repeat myself and someone else might be better capable to explain this very common principle.

In a discussion each person has an equal level of validity.

Keep in mind that I said; in a discussion (a conversation, a dialogue, an exchange of thoughts and ideas by word of mouth or through writing).

That is the starting point.

It is like horse-racing, all horses start from the same line and run the same distance. One might be better, faster, healthier, younger or more experienced then the other, it makes no difference. The running distance stays the same. The starting point stays the same.

Saying that the level of validity is equal or that each person is equal in a discussion is not the same as saying that all opinions are correct. Or worthwhile. Or encouraging. Or wise.

It is during the dialogue that we find out through examining the argumentation which argument is valid in supporting a particular opinion and which argument is invalid.

Someone may not like a particular opinion, not listen to a particular opinion, see a particular opinion as untrue. That is fine. In a dialogue all these things do not matter. You engage into the dialogue and then the principles of dialogue apply.

If we were to apply this to horse-racing then my point is that all horses, no matter what, are considered equal and start from the same starting-point.

If you look at the arguments of some the posts here on this thread you will see that some are of the opinion that a particular horse is better then the others and should therefore be given a head-start. Or better still, bring him to the finish-line before the race so we all know in advance which horse is the best.

Hope this cleared the confusion a bit...

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 07:16 PM
That which has sunstance, needs no defense.
That which has no substance, cannot be defended and folks will walk away from it.

Absorb what is useful. discard the rest.
~Danny Inosanto~

waging peace,

Chris

I read this before, a long time ago. I guess it must be in his book. I was impressed by this simple statement. And rereading it now I am again!

Thanks!

Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 07:18 PM
I read this before, a long time ago. I guess it must be in his book. I was impressed by this simple statement. And rereading it now I am again!

Thanks!

Tom

I wrote the first two sentences. Surely a composit of many a free-thinker.
Inosanto puts it into pragmatic use with his famous words.

In Awe,
Chris

Chris Li
06-18-2012, 07:22 PM
That which has no substance, cannot be defended and folks will walk away from it.


Unfortunately, there are too many things in this world without substance that do get defended and which people do not walk away from. Just look at politics.

Best,

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 07:23 PM
I mean, here is a perfect example of inspiration. Here's a guy that is the wealthies man in Europe and gives it all away. He feels hindered by the professors at Cambridge so he leaves them so he can think more creatively.. He has no degree, but writes what is likely the most famous treatise in 20th century philosophy. Instead of teaching, he goes to war in WWI and returns highly decorated. And again, in WWII, he becomes a hospital porter. He had no PhD but folks called him God. They just had to give him one so Cambridge would feel good about allowing him to lecture.

And, he was a friend of Rilke.

Would this forum have recognized him if he were a contributor???????????

I have given my life to meeting folks like this. And I have met them. And i look forward to meeting the next one. Is it you??????? Or you????? Or you???

bewildered and joyful.

Chris

He was amazing, wasn't he?

Such a major influence on language, science, philosophy.

And to think that he wrote the tractatus in the trenches in between attacks.

He must have had a strong spirit.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 07:24 PM
I wrote the first two sentences. Surely a composit of many a free-thinker.
Inosanto puts it into pragmatic use with his famous words.

In Awe,
Chris

Then I bow deeply to you!

Gassho,

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 07:30 PM
I'm not confused.

Each person is valid. Equal level of validity.

Their opinion may or may not be valid or worth listening to. Simple.

That's why getting personal or implying who can or can't is the destructive element.

Peace.G.

Graham,

Well, this just shows that a short explanation often works better then an elaborated one.

Thank you for trying to get this clearer to everyone.

Tom.

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 07:35 PM
Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe
Hello Joe,
Quite the opposite I should say! I am trying to steer away from that situation.
All the best,
Tom

jonreading
06-18-2012, 08:00 PM
As a casual reader I have some issues that stand out to me.
1. Equality and validity are different concepts. Several posters seem to use them either in conjunction or as a synonym.
2. Wisdom carries weight.
3. No one has addressed the expertise posters assume when posting a comment

First, opinions may be valid or invalid. Valid opinions carry a weight based upon the accuracy of the opinion. Second, the accuracy of the opinion is related to the ethos of the contributor and the weight of the opinion. Equality is a comparative term used in measurement; in this case we are measuring the accuracy of opinions.

Contributors have an obligation to qualify their opinions so readers may assign a weight to the contribution. One problem with public forums is that while everyone is exercising their right to post, not everyone qualifies their contributions. On Aikiweb, most comments are at least valid given many members practice aikido. The issue is the weight of wisdom assigned to the contribution.

As a point of note, if I continued the horse-racing analogy, I would argue that the termination of discourse is based upon the extent of the participants' knowledge. In this respect, the separation of the lineup would reflect the knowledge of each participant and the weight of wisdom in their contribution and the "finish line" would simply be the point at which only one participant continues the race (the others having reached their point of exhaustion). Some participants would lag behind because of grammatical, linguistic or semantic difficulty. Some participants would slow after the quarter-mile because they lack the knowledge to continue the discourse. Finally, some participants would falter as they poorly apply their wisdom to the knowledge they are trying to express. The lineup was valid, but each participate separated from the other through their own doings.

I could have a great dialogue with Albert Einstein about algebra, less so about advanced mathematic principles. Why? Because Einstein's knowledge about advanced mathematic principles exceeds mine. Alternatively, I could enjoy a great monologue from Einstein and maybe learn something. That's the kicker though... We are so busy screaming about how valid and equal our points are so we can have a "dialogue", we forget that maybe we should be listening to a monologue.

If your opinion is so much better than the competition, throw it out there and have the argument. If your opinion is good it will hold water and maybe give you the opportunity to refine it. If you are not ready to assert your opinion for argument, then engage a discussion to craft your opinion. But don't assert your opinion for discussion - that's just bad rhetoric.

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 09:14 PM
Unfortunately, there are too many things in this world without substance that do get defended and which people do not walk away from. Just look at politics.

Best,

Chris

You sound impatient.
Towers of babel fall.
Bureaucratic Authoritarian governments fall from their own self-loathing and fear.
Yet, the patient man never has to wait.

Have you ever heard of the famous painting of the three sages and the vat of vinegar?
I believe it is called the Vinegar tasters.
http://darumasan.blogspot.com/2004/10/three-vinegar-tasters.html

The Confucian (Rigid standards of behavior) says it tastes sour
The Buddhist (no clear definition of white and black or right and wrong) says it tastes bitter
The taoist says it is useful.
From the Taoist point of view, sourness and bitterness come from the interfering and unappreciative mind. Life itself, when understood and utilized for what it is, is sweet. It is like a reservoir of water waiting to be released. The water will flow eventually and cannot be stopped. So also with that which lacks integrity or substance. In time, cracks or leaks will develop, and the water will flow. Trying to impede the natural tendency of the water to flow its course results in disaster. To Lao-tse, only by working within the laws that govern the flow of water will happiness be achieved.

That is the message of The VinegarTasters.

Be Well,

Chris

phitruong
06-18-2012, 09:15 PM
Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe

nope. it's like saying that all animals tasted like chicken, except for the chicken. :D

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 09:17 PM
Just an aside, Chris Li, would you impose such rigidity and impatience upon your aikido randori?

phitruong
06-18-2012, 09:17 PM
. To Lao-tse, only by working within the laws that govern the flow of water will happiness be achieved.

Chris

you meant only when you passed water would happiness be achieved? i agree. be right back. :)

Chris Li
06-18-2012, 09:18 PM
You sound impatient.
Towers of babel fall.
Bureaucratic Authoritarian governments fall from their own self-loathing and fear.
Yet, the patient man never has to wait.



Please, save me the platitudes. Everything falls in time, including things of "substance", and the eventual fall of a bureaucratic authoritarian government really makes no difference at all to those who are damaged long before that happens.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
06-18-2012, 09:20 PM
Just an aside, Chris Li, would you impose such rigidity and impatience upon your aikido randori?

Sure, if needed.

Best,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 09:38 PM
Sure, if needed.

Best,

Chris

Not I. I prefer to surrender to the flow of energies within the moment. Surrender to the laws of nature. The tree that resists the wind, breaks.

Perhaps, we are just on a different path. Confucian constructs are great for herd control. I am not a herd animal. If anything, I hunt herd animals.

The Tao suits me better. Without it, a lone wolf would not survive. He knows that you do not break the laws of nature. The laws of nature break you when you do not abide by them.

Peace,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 09:45 PM
you meant only when you passed water would happiness be achieved? i agree. be right back. :)

Did everything come out allright.
Remember: the 6 healing sounds...

; )

Chris

Chris Li
06-18-2012, 09:56 PM
Not I. I prefer to surrender to the flow of energies within the moment. Surrender to the laws of nature. The tree that resists the wind, breaks.

Perhaps, we are just on a different path. Confucian constructs are great for herd control. I am not a herd animal. If anything, I hunt herd animals.

The Tao suits me better. Without it, a lone wolf would not survive. He knows that you do not break the laws of nature. The laws of nature break you when you do not abide by them.

Peace,

Chris

Well, I prefer a lot of things. As I said, if needed.

Best,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-19-2012, 12:15 AM
Herd animal handlers love to control them with nanny state techniques. They use a form of propaganda that teaches that everyone must be protected from the boogie man. Then they teach the herd that they should "see something, then say something". Spy on your neighbor. Let the nanny state touch your junk in order to protect you. Hunt your brother for the massa. Don't worry, he good to us. You can even teach the herd to eat it's own. Big Agra is doing that with cattle. Perhaps, in the near future, Hunger Games will be a reality. It won't be the first time.

I would prefer to have a forum where new folks can learn to think for themselves; learn to trust their own instincts; to think outside the box; to be lions. That just doesn't happen with nanny-type teaching methods. Kids get bloody noses and bounce back stronger. Trust them to self navigate and they will learn to do it. Put too many protections on the process and they will always need the crutch you provided.

A rant from an iconoclast deep ecologist libertarian.

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-19-2012, 12:30 AM
Please, save me the platitudes. Everything falls in time, including things of "substance", and the eventual fall of a bureaucratic authoritarian government really makes no difference at all to those who are damaged long before that happens.

Best,

Chris

Things of substance do not fall. Pythagoras remains. Hypatia's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun could not be destroyed along with the library at Alexandria. So do the pyramids remain; the use of phurbas, red sticks and totems. The teachings of Teotihuacan; the ideal of true democracy and of the forum.

Things built upon lies, shallow thought, ineptitude, and manipulation fall. The nanny state will fall.

TimB99
06-19-2012, 12:32 AM
Well, let me try an effort to make it clearer to you. Although I have the feeling I am starting to repeat myself and someone else might be better capable to explain this very common principle.

In a discussion each person has an equal level of validity.

Keep in mind that I said; in a discussion (a conversation, a dialogue, an exchange of thoughts and ideas by word of mouth or through writing).

That is the starting point.

It is like horse-racing, all horses start from the same line and run the same distance. One might be better, faster, healthier, younger or more experienced then the other, it makes no difference. The running distance stays the same. The starting point stays the same.

Saying that the level of validity is equal or that each person is equal in a discussion is not the same as saying that all opinions are correct. Or worthwhile. Or encouraging. Or wise.

It is during the dialogue that we find out through examining the argumentation which argument is valid in supporting a particular opinion and which argument is invalid.

Someone may not like a particular opinion, not listen to a particular opinion, see a particular opinion as untrue. That is fine. In a dialogue all these things do not matter. You engage into the dialogue and then the principles of dialogue apply.

If we were to apply this to horse-racing then my point is that all horses, no matter what, are considered equal and start from the same starting-point.

I think we all agree on that.. Though I'm not sure how a person can be 'valid'...


If you look at the arguments of some the posts here on this thread you will see that some are of the opinion that a particular horse is better then the others and should therefore be given a head-start. Or better still, bring him to the finish-line before the race so we all know in advance which horse is the best.

Hope this cleared the confusion a bit...

Tom

Funny.. I never got that impression from anyone.. If anything, I'd say, continuing in the horse racing analogy, that people have a sort of track record.. And that according to that track record, they're pretty confident on whom they would bet..

How do you view the bigger 'issue', if I may call it that, that's going about in this thread, then, if I may ask?

Chris Li
06-19-2012, 01:21 AM
Things of substance do not fall. Pythagoras remains. Hypatia's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun could not be destroyed along with the library at Alexandria. So do the pyramids remain; the use of phurbas, red sticks and totems. The teachings of Teotihuacan; the ideal of true democracy and of the forum.

Things built upon lies, shallow thought, ineptitude, and manipulation fall. The nanny state will fall.

The pyramids remain - but thousands of other ancient monuments and constructions no longer exist.

Anyway, nobody has proposed a nanny state - or even increased forum moderation.

Best,

Chris

Anthony Loeppert
06-19-2012, 03:59 AM
Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe

Some certainly taste better than others.

Anthony Loeppert
06-19-2012, 04:13 AM
nope. it's like saying that all animals tasted like chicken, except for the chicken. :D

Doh! Now my last post seems derivative... yet just as valid...

Anthony Loeppert
06-19-2012, 04:17 AM
and the eventual fall of a bureaucratic authoritarian government really makes no difference at all to those who are damaged long before that happens.


Exactly my thoughts... little comfort to the last person tossed in the mass grave.

Anthony Loeppert
06-19-2012, 04:46 AM
Things of substance do not fall. Pythagoras remains. Hypatia's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun could not be destroyed along with the library at Alexandria. So do the pyramids remain; the use of phurbas, red sticks and totems. The teachings of Teotihuacan; the ideal of true democracy and of the forum.

Things built upon lies, shallow thought, ineptitude, and manipulation fall. The nanny state will fall.

It seems then the things of substance that do not fall have no substance.

Don't get too attached to the earth or anything that is on it, because in about 4 billion years the sun will consume this planet when it goes nova... that is, if we don't get ripped from orbiting the sun when the andromeda galaxy collides with our milky way.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/milky-way-collide.html

Pythagora(')s remains... as in, he's dead. The mathematical truth discovered which bears his name is still taught. However the truth existed before and after him.

Sort of like the classic question, if a tree falls and there is no one to hear it.... If there is no consciousness to appreciate a fundamental truth, does it (the truth) really matter? (YES! is my answer in case you're curious)

Humanity will run to it's conclusion as well on the continuum of life and progress. Maybe what comes after will have more success... or something else on another world.

In my humblest of opinions,
Life is the universe's way of getting to know itself and merely a natural consequence.

Tom Verhoeven
06-19-2012, 05:26 AM
I think we all agree on that.. Though I'm not sure how a person can be 'valid'...

Funny.. I never got that impression from anyone.. If anything, I'd say, continuing in the horse racing analogy, that people have a sort of track record.. And that according to that track record, they're pretty confident on whom they would bet..

How do you view the bigger 'issue', if I may call it that, that's going about in this thread, then, if I may ask?

The "bigger issue"?

The rock of Gibraltar.

Tom

Anthony Loeppert
06-19-2012, 05:31 AM
The "bigger issue"?

The rock of Gibraltar.

Tom

Or Graham's greatest triumph :)

mrlizard123
06-19-2012, 05:32 AM
If we were to apply this to horse-racing then my point is that all horses, no matter what, are considered equal and start from the same starting-point.

Really? So you're deciding to get in to horse betting and where to place your bet, you roll a dice and choose your horse based on that? Or do you base it on the deliverable results of the past from their form and proven abilities? The reality of discussions on here is we're not discussing a bunch of horses that have never been in a race.

Yes, the six year old (to switch examples) is entitled to their opinion, they may even have some good ideas; how do we determine if what they are describing is a good idea or whether it doesn't hold water? Presumably by testing/reviewing/examining that idea to see whether it carries merit?

We all have buckets, they're different sizes, some maybe are chipped or cracked; if I argue that mine, despite having a hole in the bottom of it, can hold more water than yours I expect that you would want to see something to back this up? Without actual witnesses/evidence/explanation would you believe me? When you suggested that perhaps I am mistaken, I say that you would only know if you were the one pouring the water but you can't come because I don't need your approval or understanding.

Would you wonder what my purpose of coming to discuss buckets was in the first place?

When someone presents and idea that appears to some like nonsense or exaggeration and when called on it actually demonstrates it in person to hundreds of people, many of whom were doubting or outright hostile, do you not agree that it lends weight to their argued position?

Imagine I know no French (this is not too much of a stretch unfortunately...) but also I have no knowledge of it as a language at all, perhaps no knowledge that there are other languages; it may sound like nonsense to me. I may argue from the perspective that it is not language but rather noise. Others, with different levels of understanding may point out to me that I simply am not equipped to understand the communication and that I need to learn some in order to be involved in an enlightened way.

Imagine someone refusing to teach me French yet still expecting me to believe it was a real language?

Contrast with someone offering to teach me and this then shedding some light on what was just noise/nonsense before I was given some degree of understanding?

This is analagous to the situation, I think, because it's not as simple as a debate with word-skill determining who is an authority; the subject matter is closely linked to a physical activity/skill the knowledge of which informs the debate such that one is able to understand the topic at hand.

Whilst we're at it, I can disregard your mentioning of plato and socrates and wittgenstein since we start from an equal footing and they're not here; you can't use their arguments or achievements to back up yours.

Tom Verhoeven
06-19-2012, 06:53 AM
Really? So you're deciding to get in to horse betting and where to place your bet, you roll a dice and choose your horse based on that? Or do you base it on the deliverable results of the past from their form and proven abilities? The reality of discussions on here is we're not discussing a bunch of horses that have never been in a race.

Yes, the six year old (to switch examples) is entitled to their opinion, they may even have some good ideas; how do we determine if what they are describing is a good idea or whether it doesn't hold water? Presumably by testing/reviewing/examining that idea to see whether it carries merit?

We all have buckets, they're different sizes, some maybe are chipped or cracked; if I argue that mine, despite having a hole in the bottom of it, can hold more water than yours I expect that you would want to see something to back this up? Without actual witnesses/evidence/explanation would you believe me? When you suggested that perhaps I am mistaken, I say that you would only know if you were the one pouring the water but you can't come because I don't need your approval or understanding.

Would you wonder what my purpose of coming to discuss buckets was in the first place?

When someone presents and idea that appears to some like nonsense or exaggeration and when called on it actually demonstrates it in person to hundreds of people, many of whom were doubting or outright hostile, do you not agree that it lends weight to their argued position?

Imagine I know no French (this is not too much of a stretch unfortunately...) but also I have no knowledge of it as a language at all, perhaps no knowledge that there are other languages; it may sound like nonsense to me. I may argue from the perspective that it is not language but rather noise. Others, with different levels of understanding may point out to me that I simply am not equipped to understand the communication and that I need to learn some in order to be involved in an enlightened way.

Imagine someone refusing to teach me French yet still expecting me to believe it was a real language?

Contrast with someone offering to teach me and this then shedding some light on what was just noise/nonsense before I was given some degree of understanding?

This is analagous to the situation, I think, because it's not as simple as a debate with word-skill determining who is an authority; the subject matter is closely linked to a physical activity/skill the knowledge of which informs the debate such that one is able to understand the topic at hand.

Whilst we're at it, I can disregard your mentioning of plato and socrates and wittgenstein since we start from an equal footing and they're not here; you can't use their arguments or achievements to back up yours.

I think I have addressed all these arguments already. Please feel free to come back to me if you think I have missed something, but as far as I can see you are not bringing any new arguments to the table.

What it comes down to is that you prefer the rock of Gibraltar.

Most people do.

I don't. Never will.

Tom

Demetrio Cereijo
06-19-2012, 07:15 AM
The rock of Gibraltar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UofP0fPLFg8

Meh.

:)

mrlizard123
06-19-2012, 07:19 AM
I think I have addressed all these arguments already. Please feel free to come back to me if you think I have missed something, but as far as I can see you are not bringing any new arguments to the table.

What it comes down to is that you prefer the rock of Gibraltar.

Most people do.

I don't. Never will.

Tom

If I was asked whether I wanted to move to Atlantis or Gibraltar I probably would prefer Gibraltar.

David Orange
06-19-2012, 07:51 AM
If anything, I hunt herd animals.

That's one of my favorite things to do, actually. It sounds easy, but since they're all in the pen, they know exactly where you will attack. In other words, it's hard to sneak up on them.

:D

David

Chris Parkerson
06-19-2012, 08:56 AM
Tell them that it is for the greater good of the Animal Farm and the cows, sheep and horses will stretch their necks out willingly for the pigs.

Did you see the cover of Time magazine last week. "How to die" was the featured article. Why?
Because it suits the white shoe boys who want to cull the population down to 600 million ( that is Ted Turner's number. Bill Gates said as much also on TED. Are we all now going to be willing to have our sick parents die early? Will the white shoe boys do the same with their patents? I doubt it.

These same policy makers after Fukushima turned off the radiation meters on the US West Coast and throughout Canada. They "reconfigured" the level of radiation that is the limit for human exposure. They did this be fiat, not by science. And they will slam any scientist's career who bucks their decision.
Now, 100% of the tuna caught on the west coast has cesium in it. Soon, they will have to admit that Japan must be evacuated if Japanese culture is to survive. Japan has such a plan in the table, I am told.

Cognitive dissonance brings herd animals to the glue factory. You see, as e. e. Cummings well said,
How to hump a cows
Is not
To push and then to pull
But stick your finger
In the slot
and call it beautifool.

He also quipped, "if freedom is a breakfast food......"

It is easy to hunt herd animals.

Chris

Chris Knight
06-19-2012, 09:34 AM
Cognitive dissonance brings herd animals to the glue factory. You see, as e. e. Cummings well said,
How to hump a cows
Is not
To push and then to pull
But stick your finger
In the slot
and call it beautifool.

He also quipped, "if freedom is a breakfast food......"

It is easy to hunt herd animals.

me thinks someone's spent too long in the glue factory

DH
06-19-2012, 10:07 AM
Opinions and strength of argument do not qualify people in Budo....their skills do. I know dozens of professional writers and academics and budo teachers who could make a much better argument for Jujutsu then Rickson Gracie ever could. Give people ten minutes in a room and everyone there would chose to learn from....Rickson. Why? Substance over argument.
How come every Aikido teacher I meet-with no exception- fails?
How come they all are choosing to learn this material?
Substance over argument

The comments on horse racing
You do not get to enter your horse in the kentucky Derby just because he is your horse and all horses are valid because they are horses, or equal because they all can run. Your horse must be tested and have a proven track record to be a worthy competitor on a world class stage.
Same for boxing or much anything else.
No one is interested in watching world class competitors being tested against some nitwits half-ass, self-deluded and self-important stumbling, just because he breathes the same air.

Seems to me that only ones who continue to argue for equality of opinion are those who lack substance. It's a twice told tale that requires no amplification or explanation. Modern martial arts are a haven for people who are all but useless in a martial sense and most of their opinions are as useless as their skills. When it comes to real skill, they are outclassed in every way, and all they really have is an argument.

I liked the idea of the internet... where idiotic "experts" as well as ner do well martial art seminar "shoppers" could all be equally called on their B.S.-but that.... only through testing.

I can modify a budo saying a tad, to fit the discussion;
I do not look to authority (or strength of argument) for truth
I look to truth for authority

In the end I look at it and think....
"Why argue....with students!"
Dan
P.S.
On a positive note; the internet has also provided a wonderful chance -on a world wide stage- for people to meet and test opinions and arguments. This has helped to clarify, end debate, build friendships, and strengthen Budo in a way that is unprecidented in it's history.
For that we should all be thankful.

Chris Parkerson
06-19-2012, 10:27 AM
Looking to truth for authority is a beautiful thing.

Regards,

Chris

mathewjgano
06-19-2012, 11:44 AM
Opinions and strength of argument do not qualify people in Budo....their skills do. I know dozens of professional writers and academics and budo teachers who could make a much better argument for Jujutsu then Rickson Gracie ever could. Give people ten minutes in a room and everyone there would chose to learn from....Rickson. Why? Substance over argument.
Skill in anything only qualifies the thing those skills are in. The validity is based on the role. Those people who might make a better argument for Jujutsu than Rickson Gracie serve a completely different role and purpose. If I want to learn how to work on Fords I'm going to go to a mechanic, even if the advertizer gave me a compelling reason to want to learn about Fords in the first place. I think of it as the difference between learning "about" something and learning the thing itself...if that even makes any sense.

On a positive note; the internet has also provided a wonderful chance -on a world wide stage- for people to meet and test opinions and arguments. This has helped to clarify, end debate, build friendships, and strengthen Budo in a way that is unprecidented in it's history.
For that we should all be thankful.
The spread of general information is the role of the internet; the spread of functional understanding and of ability/skill is the role of the mat.

akiy
06-19-2012, 11:49 AM
Hi folks,

I don't have the time right now to sort/split this thread out into its components, so I want to ask you folks to help me out here. I'll just state a few guidelines that I hope will help this thread (and others):


Please start a different thread when the topic that you are discussing veers away from the original topic.
Please make sure to connect your thoughts to aikido when posting in the aikido-related forums here.
Please keep your posts respectful and civilized; stay away from personal attacks and disrespectful language/conduct.


Thank you,

-- Jun

Tom Verhoeven
06-19-2012, 01:03 PM
Hi folks,

I don't have the time right now to sort/split this thread out into its components, so I want to ask you folks to help me out here. I'll just state a few guidelines that I hope will help this thread (and others):


Please start a different thread when the topic that you are discussing veers away from the original topic.
Please make sure to connect your thoughts to aikido when posting in the aikido-related forums here.
Please keep your posts respectful and civilized; stay away from personal attacks and disrespectful language/conduct.


Thank you,

-- Jun

Hi Jun,
Although not intended to do so, I think this time I am mostly responsible for drifting away from the original post.

My sincere apologies !

If you want to split the thread then I would suggest from page 20 / nr. 479.

Kind regards,

Tom

sakumeikan
06-19-2012, 06:01 PM
I think I have addressed all these arguments already. Please feel free to come back to me if you think I have missed something, but as far as I can see you are not bringing any new arguments to the table.

What it comes down to is that you prefer the rock of Gibraltar.

Most people do.

I don't. Never will.

Tom

Tom,
Like George Formby I like my little stick of Blackpool Rock. Cheers, Joe.Ps this blog is for your Mr Ellis.

sakumeikan
06-19-2012, 06:22 PM
Opinions and strength of argument do not qualify people in Budo....their skills do. I know dozens of professional writers and academics and budo teachers who could make a much better argument for Jujutsu then Rickson Gracie ever could. Give people ten minutes in a room and everyone there would chose to learn from....Rickson. Why? Substance over argument.
How come every Aikido teacher I meet-with no exception- fails?
How come they all are choosing to learn this material?
Substance over argument

The comments on horse racing
You do not get to enter your horse in the kentucky Derby just because he is your horse and all horses are valid because they are horses, or equal because they all can run. Your horse must be tested and have a proven track record to be a worthy competitor on a world class stage.
Same for boxing or much anything else.
No one is interested in watching world class competitors being tested against some nitwits half-ass, self-deluded and self-important stumbling, just because he breathes the same air.

Seems to me that only ones who continue to argue for equality of opinion are those who lack substance. It's a twice told tale that requires no amplification or explanation. Modern martial arts are a haven for people who are all but useless in a martial sense and most of their opinions are as useless as their skills. When it comes to real skill, they are outclassed in every way, and all they really have is an argument.

I liked the idea of the internet... where idiotic "experts" as well as ner do well martial art seminar "shoppers" could all be equally called on their B.S.-but that.... only through testing.

I can modify a budo saying a tad, to fit the discussion;
I do not look to authority (or strength of argument) for truth
I look to truth for authority

In the end I look at it and think....
"Why argue....with students!"
Dan
P.S.
On a positive note; the internet has also provided a wonderful chance -on a world wide stage- for people to meet and test opinions and arguments. This has helped to clarify, end debate, build friendships, and strengthen Budo in a way that is unprecidented in it's history.
For that we should all be thankful.

Dear Dan
Strong words [as ever] .Be a good chap and let us know who these Aikido teachers are?You always talk about how useless everybody is and how they do not have aiki.How about letting us know who the aikidoka who do possess aiki skills[over and above yourself of course].I do agree with your comments on the Kentucky Derby .At least I can check name of the horse/s who won the races and what the names of the entries were.You imo are a bit vague when you talk about Aikido teachers .
If you do not wish to name these people publically send me a private message.I look forward to hearing from you ,hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.

Anthony Loeppert
06-19-2012, 07:20 PM
Dear Dan
Strong words [as ever] .Be a good chap and let us know who these Aikido teachers are?You always talk about how useless everybody is and how they do not have aiki.How about letting us know who the aikidoka who do possess aiki skills[over and above yourself of course]....You imo are a bit vague when you talk about Aikido teachers .
If you do not wish to name these people publically send me a private message.I look forward to hearing from you ,hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.

Also, when you set up the criteria and at the same time judge (even though there is no doubt of setting aside your own prejudices), I can see where it could be very difficult without personal connections to the judge to pass.

Dan,
I did send you an email asking to train with you in Southern California. Funny, of the "master classes" I've taken (to borrow a term from the music world), none were so secretive or arrogant. The information was freely (not free as in $) given to those interested without judgement on whether the message was being received.

You must be one of those special teachers than can predetermine which students (will) have an understanding and which won't. Special indeed.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Anthony Loeppert <anthony@loeppert.net>
Date: Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 4:27 PM
Subject: Orange county training inquiry
To: dojoseminars@gmail.com

Background (short) martial arts career: 1 kyu Yoshinkan Aikido (AikidoDelMar.com for teachers the whole time), almost 4 years. I am NOT a gift to the martial arts community, however I'm ramping up for shodan and I thought this would be a good way to get out see and learn something new and perhaps accelerate my learning rate. Kick it up a notch so to speak. Also, I thought the Yoshinkan style would mesh easily with Daito Ryu, from what I've seen in some videos.

Regards,
Anthony

Chris Li
06-19-2012, 07:31 PM
Also, when you set up the criteria and at the same time judge (even though there is no doubt of setting aside your own prejudices), I can see where it could be very difficult without personal connections to the judge to pass.

Dan,
I did send you an email asking to train with you in Southern California. Funny, of the "master classes" I've taken (to borrow a term from the music world), none were so secretive or arrogant. The information was freely given to those interested without judgement on whether the message was being received.

You must be one of those special teachers than can predetermine which students (will) have an understanding and which won't. Special indeed.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Anthony Loeppert <anthony@loeppert.net>
Date: Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 4:27 PM
Subject: Orange county training inquiry
To: dojoseminars@gmail.com

Background (short) martial arts career: 1 kyu Yoshinkan Aikido (AikidoDelMar.com for teachers the whole time), almost 4 years. I am NOT a gift to the martial arts community, however I'm ramping up for shodan and I thought this would be a good way to get out see and learn something new and perhaps accelerate my learning rate. Kick it up a notch so to speak. Also, I thought the Yoshinkan style would mesh easily with Daito Ryu, from what I've seen in some videos.

Regards,
Anthony

It (probably) doesn't have anything to do with you personally - Dan is just very hard to get a hold of (for anybody), and he's famously bad at answering e-mail. Aiki skills must not translate over into that stuff. :D

The workshops are not his day job, and he doesn't make any real money at it - he just does it because he loves it. Unfortunately that means some of the emails fall through the cracks.

Best,

Chris

Anthony Loeppert
06-19-2012, 07:57 PM
The workshops are not his day job, and he doesn't make any real money at it - he just does it because he loves it. Unfortunately that means some of the emails fall through the cracks.


Honestly it goes both ways.... I've experienced high level practitioners without all the unprofessionalism. You don't put an email address on the internet asking for emails of interest then not simply hit reply and say 'no'.... 'or yes if not enough of the people I like come'... or whatever.

Is the email address good or isn't it? For some reason the phrase "piss poor" comes to mind. I realize I may be ostracizing myself with this comment and so be it.

Chris Li
06-19-2012, 08:00 PM
Honestly it goes both ways.... I've experienced high level practitioners without all the unprofessionalism. You don't put an email address on the internet asking for emails of interest then not simply hit reply and say 'no'.... 'or yes if not enough of the people I like come'... or whatever.

Is the email address good or isn't it? For some reason the phrase "piss poor" comes to mind. I realize I may be ostracizing myself with this comment and so be it.

Yup, still good - give him a chance, you may forgive him. :cool:

Best,

Chris

mathewjgano
06-19-2012, 11:09 PM
Yup, still good - give him a chance, you may forgive him. :cool:

Best,

Chris

Quite right. I've found it's best not to take it personally. He's more or less equally bad at returning a message. Some of us enter conversations we have no real understanding of (cough, cough:o :D ), and some of us don't reply to messages. In his defense though, I'm sure his in-box gets flooded pretty regularly.
I try to think of it as a way of practicing our higher levels of spirituality while waiting to get his understanding on IP. I'm sure there is a priority status involved, but the mystique is more a consequence of the conversations online than of some kind fo elitism...so far as I can tell, at least.

MM
06-20-2012, 10:15 AM
Registering for an account gives you, me or anyone else the right to post.


Unfortunately, you have an incorrect understanding of rights and privileges. You do not have a right to post on this forum. Jun can at any time, on a whim, decide to remove you, me, or anyone else. Jun can also, at any time for any reason, remove any post. There are no recourses to those actions. You have no right to be here. You have a privilege. It is a public forum where Jun has set the boundaries, the rules, the regulations upon which you, as a registed user, have the privilege to post and interact with others.


I'd like to read the rules but cannot find a link to where they're written down. Can you provide me with one?

Ron

Jun has posted them a few times and created a couple of threads for them. But, even in this thread, he has reposted them. See the quote below. Also, if you go to the General Forum, you'll find some of them at the top.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1

Hi folks,

I don't have the time right now to sort/split this thread out into its components, so I want to ask you folks to help me out here. I'll just state a few guidelines that I hope will help this thread (and others):


Please start a different thread when the topic that you are discussing veers away from the original topic.
Please make sure to connect your thoughts to aikido when posting in the aikido-related forums here.
Please keep your posts respectful and civilized; stay away from personal attacks and disrespectful language/conduct.


Thank you,

-- Jun

Anthony Loeppert
06-20-2012, 11:23 AM
Quite right. I've found it's best not to take it personally. He's more or less equally bad at returning a message.

I didn't take it personally. I purposefully explained I'm a lowly yoshinkan 1st kyu. I understand there are limited spots. I expected a response in the negative, but I thought "what's the harm in shooting off an email?". Now I see the flaw in my plan, expecting the response. It may have sounded like sour grapes before, but that wasn't my intention. I guess I just wanted to say publicly "I tried"...

Anyhoo... I stopped holding my breath a while ago. With all the "controversy", for lack of a better word, swirling around my curiosity got the better of me but I don't have a burning desire to attend. Perhaps that's what will separate the attendees from non-attendees.

akiy
06-20-2012, 11:59 AM
I feel that this thread has veered off-topic enough.

Thread closed.

-- Jun