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David Orange
05-30-2012, 05:28 PM
Hi David,
That's very in keeping with what little I've learned through the Jinja Shinto of Tsubaki OKami Yashiro. If I am not mistaken, there is a large emphasis on developing intuition; of harmonizing with the heartbeat and breath of kamisama to understand correctness...one must look to Great Nature to understand the way of being virtuous. "A time for every purpose under the sun," comes to mind.
Coincidentally, I think it's interesting to consider the role of the breath and heartbeat for understanding the powers of the universe. Maybe some day I'll have more than vague notions...study study study, I guess. Seems like it would be very fun to be able to embody the universe.:D
Take care,
Matt

Thank you, Matt. Is the jinja shinto you mention through Barrish Sensei? I had a friend who trained with him several years ago: Sharon OBrien. She's a math teacher now, maybe around Bellingham.

Really, everything changed for me the day I really recognized ki as describe in the Ki Eureka! thread. It was about 16 months ago. Then, at the time of the tsunami, I recognized the Fire and Water principles in my own body. And just a day or two later, I understood kokoro. And I've had a serious of follow-up understandings since then so that my life has been changing and changing very quickly for the past 16 months, most recently with the recognition of Takemusu or ki musubi when that maniac tried to assault me on my front porch.

As to the heartbeat and breath, that goes back to kokoro and I have really been pondering that idea ever since. Here's a line from my most recent poem, Flight of the Venus Satellite, which I hope to make available soon as an e-book:

"Man walks,
woman walks,
hearts beat,
spirits meet,
a fly lights on a pond.

Concentric ripples coincide
With ripples cast by other lives.

Only one side of the surface is water.
The other side is the surface of sky.

Being and nothingness:
in between, the human heart,
a gossamer sheen, vibrates,
resonates
with every thing."

Is that something like you meant?

Thanks and Cheers.

David

mathewjgano
05-30-2012, 09:36 PM
Thank you, Matt. Is the jinja shinto you mention through Barrish Sensei? I had a friend who trained with him several years ago: Sharon OBrien. She's a math teacher now, maybe around Bellingham.
Yes, through Barrish Sensei. In fact I just saw Sharon at the Aiki Taisai we just had. I hadn't seen her in several years (I'm just returning to my training), so it was real nice to say hi. I've only trained with her a handful of times, but I always remember feeling like I learned a lot each time.

Really, everything changed for me the day I really recognized ki as describe in the Ki Eureka! thread. It was about 16 months ago. Then, at the time of the tsunami, I recognized the Fire and Water principles in my own body. And just a day or two later, I understood kokoro. And I've had a serious of follow-up understandings since then so that my life has been changing and changing very quickly for the past 16 months, most recently with the recognition of Takemusu or ki musubi when that maniac tried to assault me on my front porch.
I'll have to read that thread. I remember skimming it a couple times, but obviously that's not quite the same:o. I'm still working on finding a distinct recognition of ki so I'm very curious to hear what others experience.

As to the heartbeat and breath, that goes back to kokoro and I have really been pondering that idea ever since. Here's a line from my most recent poem, Flight of the Venus Satellite, which I hope to make available soon as an e-book:

"Man walks,
woman walks,
hearts beat,
spirits meet,
a fly lights on a pond.

Concentric ripples coincide
With ripples cast by other lives.

Only one side of the surface is water.
The other side is the surface of sky.

Being and nothingness:
in between, the human heart,
a gossamer sheen, vibrates,
resonates
with every thing."

Is that something like you meant?

Thanks and Cheers.

David

I like that! Thank you! I can't claim to know much of anything on kokoro, but that rings some bells, yes.
Doumo arigato gozaimasu!
Take care,
Matt

lbb
05-31-2012, 08:14 AM
Hi David,

Thanks for your comments and your perspective. I admit, I was somewhat taken aback at your strong reaction to Mary E's analogy. I thought it was certainly worth taking issue with for a couple of reasons, but that it didn't rise to the level of an attack. I'll be honest and say that your level of anger seemed somewhat calculated to me, rather than sincere. But I also don't like it when someone tries to tell others how they ought to feel about something, particularly (as now) when I don't walk in your shoes, and I needed to clarify my own thoughts somewhat. So, thanks for your patience.

To the original comment, here's where I'd take issue with it:

1) It's a flawed analogy to compare a person's choice of attire and a person's decision to engage in discourse and manner of doing so. While it's possible to blur the lines, what I wear isn't about you; what I say to you or about you most definitely is.

2) The use of that particular image (blaming the victim of a rape) was poorly chosen. This may have been simple maladroitness, or it may have been a deliberate choice of shocking or inflammatory imagery. Either the effect was anticipated, or it should have been. Poor choice, either way.

At the same time, I believe Mary E is sincere in believing that Graham is being bullied or victimized on these forums. Again, we disagree. While I find conduct towards him lamentable at times, I don't think it's either bullying or victimization. I see that his behavior is at times insulting and provocative; I've been on the receiving end of his insults and disparaging remarks, too. But I think it's at least conceptually possible that this isn't exactly intentional, self-aware behavior on his part. I agree that it's not consistent, that it doesn't add up, and that he doesn't "walk his talk" in dialogue, never mind aikido...but it's quite possible, maybe even likely, that there's no cynicism in this, merely a rather glaring lack of self-awareness. Mary E seems to see him as a sincere, well-intentioned forum participant (which, on some level, he may be) who is being bullied by others (and it's entirely possible that some people open up his threads thinking, on some level, "Oh boy, I get to have a go at this nutter again!"). But regardless of what level the deception is taking place, whether you're lying to others or to yourself, it's effectively unassailable.

David Orange
05-31-2012, 08:47 AM
Hi David...

:)

DH
05-31-2012, 09:59 AM
I thought Mar Malmros's post was a fair assessment of things. I keep hoping for peace in the house, but it's rather foolish to think you are going to get a fairly large group of people... who are not only passionate, but have taken ownership of their training/passion and expect them to all agree on the conclusions or methods.
There is no way to avoid the fact that certain conclusions that have been reached by some, are going to fly in the face of the conclusions of others, some of whom don't even think there are any relevant standards that should apply.
Only a certain type of person will put their conclusions/training out there to be tested-on any level-video or in person. The exposure to scrutiny would reveal all, and they would lose what little voice they thought they had. I've no issue with Graham, his videos have been appraised by any number of people around the world. Whether he likes it or not, the results have not been good, and the level of accomplishment/experience and ability implicit in his tone when he writes is simply being "called on" by just about everyone around the world here....BUT... Ron and Mary. I don't know what that says, but it is why he has come under fire so much. I also found it very interesting in that when it happened to me, it was not only approved of, it was greatly supported by just about everyone here.
The difference?
I stepped up.

Victim
I think it is pretty hard to call yourself a victim when you put video after video out in front of a world of serious budoka, ask for discussion, make claims about what you can do, and then complain when both you and your views of budo are assailed by scores of professionals.

Spirituality and IP
There are some profound answers to be had regarding this interesting topic. I had a lengthy-multiple hours long- discussion with Bill Gleason over this very thing; encompassing historical precedent and personal journeys, trials and results. He and I have some conclusions of our own about transparency, being vital, and your soul/spirit/mind/ body being one and how that is accomplished from meditation through randori to produce a certain unshakable presence. There are definable source materials and practices to produce results.
I never share it publicly for two reasons.
a. It is personal and my results have been tested round the world
b. I don't want to debate it with someone with no palpable results yet it is deluded into thinking they have equal voice.

"Houston we have a problem...."
Many high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called. Their teaching does not meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed. They now avoid forums.
Other high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called and their teaching does meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed and desired. They now avoid forums because they are sick of being debated by pretenders.

Is the result a better place?
I do know that Aikiweb is very well known for a standard, and the quality of information/discussion and calling people on their B.S.. Is it making it better? Well, I recently learned Aikiweb has attracted readership from Shihan very close to Doshu, as well as the likes of Sam Chin and Chen Zhonghua for that very reason. That's saying something.
Budo people have been "called" for thousands of years. In the past they had no choice but to step up. The good news was that it silenced the voices of pretenders, leaving the purity of the arts to remain. Really, it is only the faint of heart who object. Budo, by its very nature must be strong, the process demanding and the results put to the test. Giving voice to a pretender is like the proverbial wanna be walking around with a scroll unearned and claiming expertise in swordsmanship. Eventually they were cut down.
Today the process can be kinder, but the results must be the same. Spirituality has always come at a price, so does IP and so does Budo. The discipline of each is not for the faint of heart.

Dan

graham christian
05-31-2012, 11:18 AM
I think this calls for my response.

My view to sum up me and my perspective with regards to 'perceived' or real attack is based on masakatsu and agatsu. The only enemy is in yourself.

To me when people lose it or even think they know about someone else is a prime example.

Even in the world as a whole, country to country you can look at it from this viewpoint and see a lack of masakatsu and agatsu. A country warring with another, usually under false pretenses, etc, all due to power etc. The thing is meanwhile their own country is less than normal let alone perfect with suffering and unemployment etal. The blame and the solution is not elsewhere but is used as an excuse for such warring behaviour. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Get your own house in order, make your own house a wonderful place for the only enemy to doing such is within.

This does not mean I am anti military or any such thing for if you are beset upon by another country who cannot get their own house in order and thus chooses to attack you to get your oil or resources or to manipulate their own people for internal power reasons or whatever then you stike and strike hard.

Thus the same goes in any circles including and especially Aikido. Get your own house in order. Others houses are none of your business really and attacking them because of personal belief is foolhardy, shows me something is wrong in your own scene, and there we go again. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Do I care what anyone says about the videos? No for they don't know. They shout about the need to feel it yet at the same time think they can be experts without doing so.

Do I care about attacks of me? No for it is only a lack once again of masakatsu and agatsu. They are attacking themselves without even knowing it.

I have a house. My Aikido house is happy, in order, progressive. My way is mine. My way gives what it promises. That's all I really need to know and oversee.

Like all those who have their way they are thus certain and opinionated as to how they do it and their views, be they Ueshiba, Saito, Tohei, Bill bloggs, whoever.

Their responsibility is their way and making sure it delivers what they promise. There responsibility is not attacking others or proving to others.

I welcome all constructive sharing of opinions and refute all 'assumptions'. The assumptions may apply to all manner of people they have met or read or whatever but I am me and they are they. Very simple.

There is a powerful connection between spiritual and application and the vehicle of Aikido is perfect for such. That as the prime is my way. 99% may not be aware or used to this approach. That's fine by me I only say it is and I do.

If that scares you, if you see that as some kind of threat, if you see that as impossible, if you see that as not fitting to your empirical methods, if you see that as strange, so what? That's you not me.

I am beholden not to you, only the people I have delivered the promise to.

You can be glad someone is doing a style their way and their students are winning and happy or not.

All else pales into insignificance.

I have never met a person yet who wasn't happily impressed. That's all I need to know. I don't follow others 'you must do this or do that to be accepted by us' . I teach only those who want to learn the connection of spiritual and the reality of it and effectiveness. I do this from day one, no twenty years nonsense. It is not the same as I/P and yet it is not physical either and there again it is not airy fairy either. Therefor that alone tells you you have not felt it and chances are don't have much experience of it. The only times I heard someone follow what I have said and say openly that they have felt such things ( for example George Ledyard) but don't see how I could be doing that brings me to a main point also.

I don't fit your usual image or progress line. Not my problem.

Those who approach me in the right manner in order to learn my way are satisfied, in fact more than. Those who just want to feel so they can talk about are given short thrift. As a three times karate champion told me, she was fed up going around doing seminars and demos like some kind of show pony. She was fed up with other karateda wanting to know how to knock people out etc. She knew the real gains of Karate and wanted no more to do with the politics and show.

She wishes they would concentrate on getting their own house in order too and stop trying to prove something. A very aware lady.

Have fun doing your own way, I do.

Peace.G.

David Orange
05-31-2012, 11:24 AM
I think this calls for my response.

Graham,

Suppose some guy comes up doing some really crazy looking stuff, wearing a T-shirt that blasphemes Islam, for instance, wearing a Pirate hat, and tells everyone he's doing Zen Shin Kan Aikido.

And suppose further that he says he learned everything--even his blaspheming Islam--from Graham Christian?

Will you then say "It's all good"?

Would you really? Would you not even post somewhere that "This guy is NOT my student and I didn't teach him any of that?"

I can't believe you would allow that kind of insanity to parade as something you endorse. And if you don't speak against it, you tacitly endorse everything he says.

Would you really just remain silent?

David

lbb
05-31-2012, 11:25 AM
Many high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called. Their teaching does not meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed. They now avoid forums.
Other high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called and their teaching does meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed and desired. They now avoid forums because they are sick of being debated by pretenders.

Let's not make the mistake of assuming that these two explanations cover all cases of high ranking teachers who no longer post. Likewise, let's not make the mistake of assuming that anytime someone refuses a challenge to "put up", it's because they don't have the goods. Unfortunately, it seems like this assumption is all too often made in these debates. There are many reasons why someone might choose to not "come out and play"; fear/expectation of failure is only one of them.

David Orange
05-31-2012, 11:31 AM
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that these two explanations cover all cases of high ranking teachers who no longer post. Likewise, let's not make the mistake of assuming that anytime someone refuses a challenge to "put up", it's because they don't have the goods. Unfortunately, it seems like this assumption is all too often made in these debates. There are many reasons why someone might choose to not "come out and play"; fear/expectation of failure is only one of them.

That's true, but it starts with their making a claim that stimulates a question.

No claim, no blame (to paraphrase Lao Tzu).

David

Conrad Gus
05-31-2012, 11:42 AM
I think this calls for my response.

My view to sum up me and my perspective with regards to 'perceived' or real attack is based on masakatsu and agatsu. The only enemy is in yourself.

To me when people lose it or even think they know about someone else is a prime example.

Even in the world as a whole, country to country you can look at it from this viewpoint and see a lack of masakatsu and agatsu. A country warring with another, usually under false pretenses, etc, all due to power etc. The thing is meanwhile their own country is less than normal let alone perfect with suffering and unemployment etal. The blame and the solution is not elsewhere but is used as an excuse for such warring behaviour. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Get your own house in order, make your own house a wonderful place for the only enemy to doing such is within.

This does not mean I am anti military or any such thing for if you are beset upon by another country who cannot get their own house in order and thus chooses to attack you to get your oil or resources or to manipulate their own people for internal power reasons or whatever then you stike and strike hard.

Thus the same goes in any circles including and especially Aikido. Get your own house in order. Others houses are none of your business really and attacking them because of personal belief is foolhardy, shows me something is wrong in your own scene, and there we go again. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Do I care what anyone says about the videos? No for they don't know. They shout about the need to feel it yet at the same time think they can be experts without doing so.

Do I care about attacks of me? No for it is only a lack once again of masakatsu and agatsu. They are attacking themselves without even knowing it.

I have a house. My Aikido house is happy, in order, progressive. My way is mine. My way gives what it promises. That's all I really need to know and oversee.

Like all those who have their way they are thus certain and opinionated as to how they do it and their views, be they Ueshiba, Saito, Tohei, Bill bloggs, whoever.

Their responsibility is their way and making sure it delivers what they promise. There responsibility is not attacking others or proving to others.

I welcome all constructive sharing of opinions and refute all 'assumptions'. The assumptions may apply to all manner of people they have met or read or whatever but I am me and they are they. Very simple.

There is a powerful connection between spiritual and application and the vehicle of Aikido is perfect for such. That as the prime is my way. 99% may not be aware or used to this approach. That's fine by me I only say it is and I do.

If that scares you, if you see that as some kind of threat, if you see that as impossible, if you see that as not fitting to your empirical methods, if you see that as strange, so what? That's you not me.

I am beholden not to you, only the people I have delivered the promise to.

You can be glad someone is doing a style their way and their students are winning and happy or not.

All else pales into insignificance.

I have never met a person yet who wasn't happily impressed. That's all I need to know. I don't follow others 'you must do this or do that to be accepted by us' . I teach only those who want to learn the connection of spiritual and the reality of it and effectiveness. I do this from day one, no twenty years nonsense. It is not the same as I/P and yet it is not physical either and there again it is not airy fairy either. Therefor that alone tells you you have not felt it and chances are don't have much experience of it. The only times I heard someone follow what I have said and say openly that they have felt such things ( for example George Ledyard) but don't see how I could be doing that brings me to a main point also.

I don't fit your usual image or progress line. Not my problem.

Those who approach me in the right manner in order to learn my way are satisfied, in fact more than. Those who just want to feel so they can talk about are given short thrift. As a three times karate champion told me, she was fed up going around doing seminars and demos like some kind of show pony. She was fed up with other karateda wanting to know how to knock people out etc. She knew the real gains of Karate and wanted no more to do with the politics and show.

She wishes they would concentrate on getting their own house in order too and stop trying to prove something. A very aware lady.

Have fun doing your own way, I do.

Peace.G.

Graham,

I get this.

Conrad

DH
05-31-2012, 11:50 AM
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that these two explanations cover all cases of high ranking teachers who no longer post. Likewise, let's not make the mistake of assuming that anytime someone refuses a challenge to "put up", it's because they don't have the goods. Unfortunately, it seems like this assumption is all too often made in these debates. There are many reasons why someone might choose to not "come out and play"; fear/expectation of failure is only one of them.
Sure, Mary. I can agree with that.
I would only start to doubt when they; chose to be a part and then not take part, make declarative comments and then refuse to support them.
There is an inconsistency in that, that only triggers warning signals. When I think of Spirituality and IP and the whole man (man/woman), it usually delivers decisiveness, courage, and a surety that can be quite defining and often dividing. When one claims one thing, but everything else is missing, I think of a poor man, putting on someone else's expensive suit and pretending.
Dan

DH
05-31-2012, 11:52 AM
If that scares you, if you see that as some kind of threat, if you see that as impossible, if you see that as not fitting to your empirical methods, if you see that as strange, so what? That's you not me.

I am beholden not to you, only the people I have delivered the promise to.

I have never met a person yet who wasn't happily impressed. That's all I need to know. I don't fit your usual image or progress line. Not my problem.
Peace.G.
Hi Graham
In many ways I have found your demeanor admirable. You do have failings sometimes, as we all do. I would suggest you consider some advice given to me by Jun, Marc and George; You, like me, and everyone else here are beholden to each of us in a way. We make the community and we invest time and our lives in training and talking to each other. We have built a community here from around the world. If we are here talking, then we are a part of that by choice. That comes at a price. And it is a good thing not a bad thing. Since you made yourself part of the community here, you have made some startling and declarative commentaries on Aikido, Ueshiba and certain truths. I was intrigue by some of your writing and thoughts. That they will draw attention and a desire to come feel/test it to see if your ideas are sound or not (Judging by the declarative and authoritative nature of some of your posts) should not come as a surprise to you. Virtually everyone here, myself included who has written in this manner has been pushed to demonstrate and they have met people from here and did exactly that.

Ellis paid a wonderful compliment to me by telling me "You need to get out there and let people feel this and teach it, and if you don't want to, then get your ass off the net and shut up. Be a part of the solution!" It was probably some of the best advice I ever received this late in life.

I would only suggest that you have chosen to be a part of a community, and that has certain obligations. One of which is support your writing when asked, with physical demonstrations occasionally. I was fortunate that I listened.
Peace in return
Dan

David Orange
05-31-2012, 12:00 PM
When one claims one thing, but everything else is missing, I think of a poor man, putting on someone else's expensive suit and pretending.
Dan

Or like claiming to be a CPA and giving financial advice when you're not really a CPA.

Or, as you said elsewhere, carrying a scroll you found and claiming to be an expert swordsman.

Not cricket, really.

David

lbb
05-31-2012, 01:57 PM
That's true, but it starts with their making a claim that stimulates a question.

Meaning that no one is/has been challenged to "put up" unless they've made a claim?

Good to know...

David Orange
05-31-2012, 02:10 PM
Meaning that no one is/has been challenged to "put up" unless they've made a claim?

Good to know...

Well, I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of any examples.

Graham has certainly made voluminous claims but has never backed any of them up.

So he gets called down a lot....

And then there are those who say only what they can prove, but they're disputed by someone with no real basis for dispute: "You can't really do it" though hundreds of people know they can.

That's another kind that gets heat.

1) saying you can but refusing to back it up
2) saying someone can't when they've proven repeatedly that they can

But both are kinds of claims...

FWIW

David

David Orange
05-31-2012, 10:53 PM
Behaviour is an interesting thing. On the spiritual side of all budo and all things you will find it is a must, a discipline of the utmost importance.

Speaking of Richard Kim, he quotes his teacher, Yoshida Kotaro, as saying there is a difference between attitude and behavior in that we can fake an attitude, but we can't fake our behavior. Our fake attitude may impress people, but eventually, our true nature is seen in our behavior. Further, he says, we're always the last to see our own behavior.

Anyway, I say, it's better to be yourself and behave as you will, intentionally, instead of not being your true self and therefore behaving unconsciously.

My first karate teacher, in 1972, had a picture of himself in a group with Mas Oyama, the bull killer. He had a wall hanging that said "Kyokushinkaikan Karate Do" and claimed some degree of black belt with Oyama.

Later, it turned out the picture was from a seminar this guy attended with Mas Oyama in Alabama, but the guy who organized the seminar, an actual black belt under Oyama, said that the fellow in question was only a green belt. He had black belts in other types of karate, apparently, but he claimed the one art he didn't have rank in. I left his class to train with the other guy.

Although the first guy had pretty good dojo decorum and dignified bearing, his behavior in the larger context was deplorable. So there's "behavior" and then there's "behavior...."

David Orange
05-31-2012, 11:09 PM
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
What is the right way?

IN AIKIDO, THE OPPONENT IS KILLED AT A SINGLE BLOW!

Bless you. No one is killed in Aikido. But I know what you mean.

Are you aware that it was Ueshiba who said "In aikido, the opponent is killed at a single blow!"?

And this was after he'd had two major enlightenment experiences, including the one in the garden, when he drank from the well and saw the golden lights, etc.

He was talking about actual application, not what's normally shown at demos. In this case, he felt compelled to show the real, inner truth because he was showing it to the Emperor: the God of Japan.

So that was the inner truth.

Later, he had another great enlightenment experience and he said, ""The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love.""

He placed his emphasis, then, on protection, but do you think his technique lost its deadly edge? Did his sword or his spear become dulled or soft (like Nerf foam)?

Budo must always be deadly in essence or it cannot function as effective protection.

That's the paradoxical nature of budo. It works for peace, but its method is always in handling physical violence.

hughrbeyer
05-31-2012, 11:20 PM
I'm reminded of a brouhaha in a fitness forum I frequented some years back.

One guy on the forum advised a pregnant woman to do chin-ups. If you know what pregnancy does to ligaments, not to mention how the weight of the pregnancy is supported by the back (badly), you'll know why everyone on the forum who knew anything dumped all over him. He insisted he was correct and that the woman should do chin-ups.

Should everyone have said, well, that's his truth and it's just as good as any other truth?

Or, people exercise for different purposes, and if she likes chin-ups she should go right ahead?

Or, you can't correct every stupid statement on the internet, so just let it go?

In the event, the forum moderators banned him.

I'm not suggesting banning anyone here, but I do suggest that if we think we are doing anything more than stylized exercise, some vigorous response is only appropriate.

graham christian
06-01-2012, 05:55 AM
Graham,

Suppose some guy comes up doing some really crazy looking stuff, wearing a T-shirt that blasphemes Islam, for instance, wearing a Pirate hat, and tells everyone he's doing Zen Shin Kan Aikido.

And suppose further that he says he learned everything--even his blaspheming Islam--from Graham Christian?

Will you then say "It's all good"?

Would you really? Would you not even post somewhere that "This guy is NOT my student and I didn't teach him any of that?"

I can't believe you would allow that kind of insanity to parade as something you endorse. And if you don't speak against it, you tacitly endorse everything he says.

Would you really just remain silent?

David

David, the truth is 99% of the time I would remain silent and find it funny. I have learned in life that the main, the single most important thing is hold your own counsel. I cannot stop nutters saying what nutters say and I'm not going to spend my life looking out and worrying about it. It's a waste of time and energy.

Truth always comes through and whoever does that kind of thing may have short term satisfaction but will become the bad effect of their own action.

If it's stupid enough then I would no doubt get calls from friends asking me if I know him and so it just takes a simple no.

Famous people must get this sort of thing all the time but eventually realize they can't give out counter statements all the time, they'd have no time left.

Funny thing is only the paranoid or those with things to hide go to extortionate lengths to make sure no one ever says anything against them which isn't true (which in this day and age just means can't be proven) to protect their 'good name' Prime example: Tiger.......

Top footballers in this country do it too at great cost (called gagging orders) and low and behold it turns out it always turns out it's because they have secret affairs or dealings or corruptions to hide.

For me, who cares, I don't. I'll leave that to those who want to end up nervous wrecks.

The old saying 'He or She protests too much'.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-01-2012, 06:18 AM
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
What is the right way?

IN AIKIDO, THE OPPONENT IS KILLED AT A SINGLE BLOW!

Are you aware that it was Ueshiba who said "In aikido, the opponent is killed at a single blow!"?

And this was after he'd had two major enlightenment experiences, including the one in the garden, when he drank from the well and saw the golden lights, etc.

He was talking about actual application, not what's normally shown at demos. In this case, he felt compelled to show the real, inner truth because he was showing it to the Emperor: the God of Japan.

So that was the inner truth.

Later, he had another great enlightenment experience and he said, ""The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love.""

He placed his emphasis, then, on protection, but do you think his technique lost its deadly edge? Did his sword or his spear become dulled or soft (like Nerf foam)?

Budo must always be deadly in essence or it cannot function as effective protection.

That's the paradoxical nature of budo. It works for peace, but its method is always in handling physical violence.

No David I wasn't aware of that particular statement or the context you gave it in. Being in bold letters it appeared you were 'shouting' it at me. My mistake.

Are you aware I say the same thing in that respect? I have said as such in threads to do with fighting trying to show the difference between martial art and fighting. Ie: Enter, finish, (or lose, or die) that's real battle field, not rolling around putting on locks or holds or cage fighting. Big difference.

On budo is love and his application thereafter, no it did not lose it's effectiveness but where we differ in view may be on wording or reality. I say it remained potentially deadly and that actually it became much more powerful and effective yet 'undeadly' ie: not harmful. A subtle difference which to me makes all the difference.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-01-2012, 07:32 AM
No David I wasn't aware of that particular statement or the context you gave it in. Being in bold letters it appeared you were 'shouting' it at me. My mistake.

Yes. It was Morihei Ueshiba. And Musashi was the same kind of thing. That's the fine edge of budo.

Having put it in all caps, I guess it did appear to be "shouting".

Of course, it was actually silent....we supply the sound tracks in our own mind. I guess it's no surprise you interpreted it as my shouting. It was intended to appear as if carved in stone....

Actually, it was intended more like Tezuka Sensei's "ORENJI! GAMBARE!"

Which, by the way, does not actually "mean" "FIGHT!"

It "means" GAMBARE! which seems to have no exact translation in English. "Don't give up!" is one interpretation. "FIGHT!" is one, "HANG IN THERE!" is another....Sensei just said "GAMBARE!"

Are you aware I say the same thing in that respect? I have said as such in threads to do with fighting trying to show the difference between martial art and fighting. Ie: Enter, finish, (or lose, or die) that's real battle field, not rolling around putting on locks or holds or cage fighting. Big difference.

After Mohizuki Sensei showed me exactly what Ueshiba meant by "killed at a single blow," I realized that the willingness and formed intent to end the encounter permanently in the first move communicates directly to the attacker's subconscious mind, as I described in the encounter on my front porch.

With that inexplicable knowledge electrifying his spine, an attacker finds it difficult to move against you.

In that case, you can apply an arm lock or wrist lock and be effective, if he manages to attack. I've never had anyone do it.

On the other hand, make no mistake, I have been in a position to be attacked when it was literally too late to do anything. If the other guy had been serious, I would have been dead. So I always try to develop good will from people I meet. You never know who might "get evil thoughts" and decide to teach you a cruel lesson. Fortunately for me, the guy didn't have actual ill will. He did scare me seriously, though. I am aware of my own mortality. Only God keeps me alive.

On budo is love and his application thereafter, no it did not lose it's effectiveness but where we differ in view may be on wording or reality. I say it remained potentially deadly and that actually it became much more powerful and effective yet 'undeadly' ie: not harmful. A subtle difference which to me makes all the difference.

It makes an art that people can learn and become strong with IF they understand that it really is a hard, sharp and pointed blade. Too many people take the smug and self-assured attitude of "Surrounded by guys with sticks and you don't have a weapon? Just take one of theirs!"

Well...maybe...

Cheers.

David

David Orange
06-01-2012, 07:46 AM
David, the truth is 99% of the time I would remain silent and find it funny. I have learned in life that the main, the single most important thing is hold your own counsel. I cannot stop nutters saying what nutters say and I'm not going to spend my life looking out and worrying about it. It's a waste of time and energy.

Well, that's why I made the guy so extreme: not because I'm saying you're like that. I doubt you hate Islam or that you wear a pirate's hat.

But if a guy like that is telling people he learned it all from you....you wouldn't speak up?

I mean...it hardly seems that you "hold your own counsel" about anything.

Why would you hold it about that?

Truth always comes through and whoever does that kind of thing may have short term satisfaction but will become the bad effect of their own action.

But if it blackens your name and the name of your art, as well as aikido in general...it can cause us all a lot of trouble.

If it's stupid enough then I would no doubt get calls from friends asking me if I know him and so it just takes a simple no.

But the "call" may not be from a friend. And it may not be a call...if he insults the wrong people in your name....Ask Salman Rushdie, for instance.

So I think it's vital to be very clear about someone who claims to represent you...or your art.


For me, who cares, I don't. I'll leave that to those who want to end up nervous wrecks.

The old saying 'He or She protests too much'.

OK. But when some nut job in a pirate hat is giving out ranks in your name, don't say I didn't warn you! :p

David

graham christian
06-01-2012, 07:53 AM
Hi Graham
In many ways I have found your demeanor admirable. You do have failings sometimes, as we all do. I would suggest you consider some advice given to me by Jun, Marc and George; You, like me, and everyone else here are beholden to each of us in a way. We make the community and we invest time and our lives in training and talking to each other. We have built a community here from around the world. If we are here talking, then we are a part of that by choice. That comes at a price. And it is a good thing not a bad thing. Since you made yourself part of the community here, you have made some startling and declarative commentaries on Aikido, Ueshiba and certain truths. I was intrigue by some of your writing and thoughts. That they will draw attention and a desire to come feel/test it to see if your ideas are sound or not (Judging by the declarative and authoritative nature of some of your posts) should not come as a surprise to you. Virtually everyone here, myself included who has written in this manner has been pushed to demonstrate and they have met people from here and did exactly that.

Ellis paid a wonderful compliment to me by telling me "You need to get out there and let people feel this and teach it, and if you don't want to, then get your ass off the net and shut up. Be a part of the solution!" It was probably some of the best advice I ever received this late in life.

I would only suggest that you have chosen to be a part of a community, and that has certain obligations. One of which is support your writing when asked, with physical demonstrations occasionally. I was fortunate that I listened.
Peace in return
Dan

Thank you Dan,

I see where your coming from and I see it is your sincere view.

I agree it is like a community, an internet community. A talking and sharing community for that's what one of these is. The community can thus only remain strong and bubbling if it has 1) Courteous, respectful communication. 2) Many diverse views.

Those are the two main important obligations, contributing to such.

The other things you mention to me are not obligations. As I see it if the first two are kept in then you cannot but have relationships forming and as a result people then going to meet each other. It is natural and not an obligation but depends solely on the first two.

This is not an organization, a command structure. It's a communication forum and informtion depository. The only shoulds are on how to conduct yourself.

I come to any one of your or anyones dojos then it's different, I follow the rules and shoulds and shouldn'ts and must dos etc according to instruction and rank. Apply that kind of thing to a forum and you destroy it and end up with a clique left and much public avoidance. That's my view.

I'm sure nearly everyone knows really that respectful communication is the major factor far and above anything else for a forum.

I found early on to my surprise people were getting in touch with me by p/m with queries about spiritual things I said. Sincere enquiries, (just to clear up what I meant) and yet telling me similar things they do. I was bemused as to why they had to ask in ;secret'. Ridicule was the reason. It keeps people away, it's the main reason, negativity.

Now what Ellis told you I can see fits you perfectly, look where it's led you to. Great.

We are all different.

What I didn't expect was that my views and experiences and what I say would draw people to want to feel it and test it. I actually thought and believed it may draw people to discuss it, to ask about it leading to sharing of views. You may say that's naive and maybe so. I didn't envision me be wanted to go anywhere let alone being told I should.

Nonetheless I knew one thing. If I struck up any relationship with anyone and they happened to be interested and passing my way they would be welcome. It would be fun.

The internet scene, me with you, broke all my rules of having someone come train with me or me wanting to train with them. I hold fast to those rules in life so why change them for 'cyber world'?
No, the scene was too farcicle and others appeared to look at it as some show waiting for the outcome. That's just not me.

Now to add to that I then met Mark. We had a few jokes about the internet world and of course very briefly actually you came up as a subject, or should I say our communications. I let him know I don't care who a person is if we don't get on or I don't think his behaviour is o.k there's no way I want to meet them. Now in response he told me that he found you very amenable and fun and that I had got you wrong, in a polite way. It was brief and it was short but his communication did reach through to me. Just thought I'd let you know that.

Anyway, that leads me to a reality. You point of physical demonstrations occasionally when asked.

Reality: I have been asked by some on this forum via P/M, only about five or six, if when they pass by they could train with me, meet up. I have always said yes.

Reality: One person has done. He is I take it of good standing in the organizational world of Aikido and just as an added bonus had also met you but once. So I would say the occasionally criteria has been met or started.

There are many things we did at that brief time, many things we showed each other, many things he asked me to show or demo, and many things I asked him to test based on things he must have heard me say on here.

Therefor there is one reality people can refer to. We did, or rather I did pick up the sword or bokken. Actually, you should have seen the look on his face. It was one of those moments. Him being an experienced Aikidoka, just that split second I could see he was confident with such and yet in his mind I picked up just the one thought of probably 'how many times have I been in this situation and had to show someone that's not how you do it' I felt that, you would have to ask him if that is correct or not, but it led me to immediately say how I just want him to test and feel based on what I had said and he had no doubt seen on here.

So actually as many things I had said about that we had time for het tested, plus adding his own tests or barriers and vice versa. These included such things as him attacking cutting and me using sen no sen and moving without him being able to follow me or 'get' me. Pleasantly enough he could do the same.

Bottom line I think we ended up happy with each other and impressed with each other. Now any negative person can find a way to put even that down with a yeah but and oh it's because. That's why I don't follow the 'you must' (prove) route because it's never ending. So I say no I musn't.

So there you are. They are my views and that's me. At least you know noew I didn't learn what I know from the back of a matchbox..ha,ha.

Peace.G.

mrlizard123
06-01-2012, 08:18 AM
So there you are. They are my views and that's me. At least you know noew I didn't learn what I know from the back of a matchbox..ha,ha.

Though we shouldn't discount the teachings of the matchbox...
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/50504_346853589487_3253035_n.jpg

I'm pretty sure it kills older people too but it's useful knowledge in case you get attacked by children I guess...

Joking aside, I just wanted to comment that I think there's been a noticable shift in the tone/manner of posting by people (on all sides) in the last few posts and wanted to commend it as being a pleasant read! :)

graham christian
06-01-2012, 08:19 AM
Well, that's why I made the guy so extreme: not because I'm saying you're like that. I doubt you hate Islam or that you wear a pirate's hat.

But if a guy like that is telling people he learned it all from you....you wouldn't speak up?

I mean...it hardly seems that you "hold your own counsel" about anything.

Why would you hold it about that?

But if it blackens your name and the name of your art, as well as aikido in general...it can cause us all a lot of trouble.

But the "call" may not be from a friend. And it may not be a call...if he insults the wrong people in your name....Ask Salman Rushdie, for instance.

So I think it's vital to be very clear about someone who claims to represent you...or your art.

OK. But when some nut job in a pirate hat is giving out ranks in your name, don't say I didn't warn you! :p

David

I don't care what a guy like that says.

I do hold my counsel. I do not complain about others. I have never consulted Jun about any perceived or real insults, hurtful remarks, even slanderous ones, or even many I could perceive as racial. I hold my own counsel. It is actually ignorant and funny to me for the most part. Maybe that makes me odd or mad but not to me.

Friends tune in sometimes and even ask me 'why do you put up with it and find it funny?' My reply is always the same. I say it's like Aikido and that you can't go around in life being affected by such things. I actually use it as a lesson to them.

It can't blacken my name. I don't fall for such rubbish. I am not a name. Those who believe that is all important good for them. It can't actually blacken the name of the art or Aikido. Only gossips can't tell he's he nutter and prefer not to.

You know I actually do drills on this kind of thing in Aikido? In these drills the opponent is allowed to say anything, to insult you anyway, to find a way of taking your center, of putting you off, of leading your mind in order to then dump you splatt.

I say when you reach a point where it doesn't matter, where it really doesn't matter to you and you can keep calm and relaxed and centered and smile only then do you deserve to do anything and even then without malice. The lesson is be willing to calmly face anything no matter what without need for any action against for any reason whatsoever then and only then will you know what true action rather than re-action really is. Only then will you not be led by things and start being the master of your own life.

Salman Rushdie was the effect of his own actions be that right or even crazy.

Peace.G.

lbb
06-01-2012, 09:39 AM
One guy on the forum advised a pregnant woman to do chin-ups. If you know what pregnancy does to ligaments, not to mention how the weight of the pregnancy is supported by the back (badly), you'll know why everyone on the forum who knew anything dumped all over him. He insisted he was correct and that the woman should do chin-ups.

Should everyone have said, well, that's his truth and it's just as good as any other truth?

Or, people exercise for different purposes, and if she likes chin-ups she should go right ahead?

Or, you can't correct every stupid statement on the internet, so just let it go?.

Do you really think that this is an analogous situation? As in, that Graham's advice, if followed, will predictably and directly lead to serious physical harm?

David Orange
06-01-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't care what a guy like that says...

So there's absolutely no statement anyone could make in your name, nothing they could be teaching or doing that would cause you to step up and say, "This is not true"?

What if Rushdie said he got the idea for his book from you?

Or that you actually wrote it, or something?

Or a teacher caught molesting children in a class he advertises as Zen Shin Kan Aikido, under Master Graham Christian???

You wouldn't publicly disavow him?

hughrbeyer
06-01-2012, 01:18 PM
Do you really think that this is an analogous situation? As in, that Graham's advice, if followed, will predictably and directly lead to serious physical harm?

To answer your question literally, no, it's not exactly the same. If it was, I'd be recommending a few folks be banned.

To answer the question I think you were really asking, yes, it's analogous. And if you don't agree, I'm prepared to argue you are not studying budo but some odd, stylized exercise regimen.

graham christian
06-01-2012, 02:08 PM
So there's absolutely no statement anyone could make in your name, nothing they could be teaching or doing that would cause you to step up and say, "This is not true"?

What if Rushdie said he got the idea for his book from you?

Or that you actually wrote it, or something?

Or a teacher caught molesting children in a class he advertises as Zen Shin Kan Aikido, under Master Graham Christian???

You wouldn't publicly disavow him?

Please, I've answered already. Giving extremes I don't see as useful or relevant. There is always an extreme to which you may or probably would do whatever. So I'm sure we could find examples where I would.

For all who follow or try to follow certain principles life will throw up challenges and situations to test you and your discipline. It's better at it than some empirical heirarchy in my opinion.

In many ways preparing for some test overseen by some 'peers' is much much easier than the tests you will encounter of similar or greater magnitude in life and nearly always unexpected.

I daren't tell you my grading system ha, ha.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-01-2012, 02:37 PM
Please, I've answered already. Giving extremes I don't see as useful or relevant. There is always an extreme to which you may or probably would do whatever. So I'm sure we could find examples where I would.

Well, that's all I'm looking for.

And the point is that, for a lot of people with a lot of aikido experience, you are that extreme person that we simply have to speak out on.

We do see what you're doing as damaging the reputation of aikido in general as a real martial art, damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art, and possibly damaging your students' chances of ever developing a real understanding of the arts. Also, since some people do seem to give you some credence (few of them, apparently, being experienced aikido people), there is the chance, as Hugh Breyer pointed out, that you can bring real damage to those who follow you.

Not to belabor the differences again, but to point out exactly why so many people comment "against" you. Really, it's not against you, Graham, yourself, but simply against the very strange things you do.

Add to this your authoritative views on IP when you seem never to have experienced it and you can begin to see why the opposition to what you do (including speaking about IP and spirituality) becomes so strong. Mark Freeman indicated that he appreciates what you are, but that what you do does not compare with what Dan does (I think he actually said "Graham is no Dan Harden..."). So it seems that whatever you do, it's not on the same scale of measures we have found with the IP of Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa.

In this light, it's easy to see why you wouldn't come out and meet the known teachers or their experienced students.

Personally, such a result would inspire me to meet those teachers.

But you continue precisely as you were.

Having been shown that your Mercedes is a Volkswagen with a new hood ornament, you shrug and say, "Well I have to get back home...in my Mercedes...being a Mercedes owner and driver as I am..." and so on. Plus, arguing the superiority of the Mercedes car....

Does that make sense?

David

David Orange
06-01-2012, 02:39 PM
I daren't tell you my grading system ha, ha.

You give ranks?

Somehow, I got the idea that your students don't get ranks at all.

Would you mind telling us your own dan rank?

Or, perhaps as good...what's the highest grade you've ever awarded?

David

Fred Little
06-01-2012, 03:48 PM
What if Rushdie said he got the idea for his book from you?

Dear David,

I don't need to ask speculative questions about Mr. Rushdie.

In 1990, I was working for the Dean of the Columbia School of Journalism, Joan Konner, as a speechwriter. She handed me a copy of a publication by ARTICLE 19 and suggested that I read it and then write up a dream-list of questions to ask Salman Rushdie. I did so and gave it back to her. That dream-list was transmitted to his agent, Andrew Wylie, and went from Wylie's office to Rushdie, then at an undisclosed location as a result of the fatwa which had been pronounced upon him and his works.

I was later told by Dean Konner that Mr. Rushdie's decision to (at that point momentarily) come out of hiding for the purpose of speaking at the J-School's 200th anniversary celebration of the First Amendment was a direct response to that list of questions: he felt it was what he wanted and needed to do, given the clear engagement with the spirit of his work evidenced in those interrogatives. And I can assure you, the State Department was none too happy about either his decision to speak, or Dean Konner's acceptance of his offer to speak, or the NYPD's offer to insure his security. For that matter, when Bella Abzug arrived at the event itself and we advised her that the doors would be locked once all the guests were inside and no one would be permitted to leave until the end of the evening, she wasn't too happy about it either. But that's another story.

What if? It's not just an analogy to me. I never exchanged a word with the man directly and never shook his hand, but nonetheless, I'll own that moment with pride for the rest of my natural days, as I will the image of his NYPD helicopter's lights rising through the north windows of Low Memorial Library as he and his security team made their way out of the venue before the doors were unlocked.

And should some student of mine have a part in a similar occurrence in the future? I should be so lucky.

The rest of your examples relate to entirely different sorts of lapses in personal integrity, which I would view as essential failings, rather than as actions with negative consequences, and I do think this is an important distinction.

Similarly, I think that your point about Ueshiba's pre-war and post-war doctrine is a critical one. That point was echoed by Kuroiwa Sensei in his assertion that the choice to refrain from violence has meaning only if one has the capacity to engage in violence. That's too bitter a pill for many to swallow, but there it is.

Be well,

Fred

graham christian
06-01-2012, 05:28 PM
Well, that's all I'm looking for.

And the point is that, for a lot of people with a lot of aikido experience, you are that extreme person that we simply have to speak out on.

We do see what you're doing as damaging the reputation of aikido in general as a real martial art, damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art, and possibly damaging your students' chances of ever developing a real understanding of the arts. Also, since some people do seem to give you some credence (few of them, apparently, being experienced aikido people), there is the chance, as Hugh Breyer pointed out, that you can bring real damage to those who follow you.

Not to belabor the differences again, but to point out exactly why so many people comment "against" you. Really, it's not against you, Graham, yourself, but simply against the very strange things you do.

Add to this your authoritative views on IP when you seem never to have experienced it and you can begin to see why the opposition to what you do (including speaking about IP and spirituality) becomes so strong. Mark Freeman indicated that he appreciates what you are, but that what you do does not compare with what Dan does (I think he actually said "Graham is no Dan Harden..."). So it seems that whatever you do, it's not on the same scale of measures we have found with the IP of Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa.

In this light, it's easy to see why you wouldn't come out and meet the known teachers or their experienced students.

Personally, such a result would inspire me to meet those teachers.

But you continue precisely as you were.

Having been shown that your Mercedes is a Volkswagen with a new hood ornament, you shrug and say, "Well I have to get back home...in my Mercedes...being a Mercedes owner and driver as I am..." and so on. Plus, arguing the superiority of the Mercedes car....

Does that make sense?

David

Sorry but you are wrong once more and those who react on this point are wrong also. ie: I do not present myself as an Authority on I/P. Therefor if you continue to act and speak as if I do then it is you not I who is carrying on regardless.

I do deliver my communications 'Authoritively' and that is the only connection with authority on that subject I have.

Peace.G.

Rob Watson
06-01-2012, 05:32 PM
damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art

Don't need much help there ...

David Orange
06-01-2012, 06:15 PM
I do not present myself as an Authority on I/P. Therefor if you continue to act and speak as if I do then it is you not I who is carrying on regardless.

Wait.

Who started this thread?

Who asserted in the first post:

"I/P is given as tracing from chinese this and that and seen as being 'hidden' from the western or even those outside certain inner circles. This may well be the case in a lot of instances but the paranoia that goes with it I find amusing. Firstly because I think it doesn't apply to Ueshibas Aikido and secondly because it is possible for most in this day and age, if they are dedicated enough to go and find a good teacher of such things.

So what's the big secret? Nothing."

You conclude here that it really amounts to Nothing. You assert that you know this and in other threads you have asserted that you have met many people with internals and that you understand and do the internal aspects of aiki. Further, you know enough about the spirituality of aikido to say authoritatively that IP is not related to spirituality, that the in/yo ho has no bearing on Japanese concepts of spirituality and that the Chinese paradigms of balancing yin and yang in the body, along with Ueshiba's extensive comments on balancing in/yo (yin yang) in the body are not related to that.....

I don't know. Is there some way we can poll the membership? I think you'll find that most people here perceive your statements to mean that you do understand and practice IP.

Show of hands?

Just saying...it sounds like what you're saying and I think most people perceive you to be saying that.

Cheers.

David

David Orange
06-01-2012, 06:23 PM
Don't need much help there ...

I know. I was thinking of that when I wrote it. In general, it's a very vague relationship that comes down a vague flow from a very vague history. Even Mochizuki Sensei used Katori Shinto Ryu sword to explain how aikido is "base on kenjutsu" though Ueshiba did not use KSR in his sword. I'm given to believe that both Ueshiba and Takeda before him were considered extremely good swordsmen but very few after them could begin to understand anything about the sword. And it may be because of that that aikido mastery has declined in the following generations.

Even though I trained a long time with Mochizuki Sensei and his students, including Kyoichi Murai, in kenjutsu, I don't consider myself to understand much about sword. I just know that the intent is not to bang the swords together, but simply to cut the other guy.

Beyond that, based on a comment attributed to Morihei Ueshiba (translated, I think, by John Stevens), I concluded that the thrust is the primary technique of the sword and that the downward cut emerges from the forward thrust. Ueshiba's comment? "The essence of aikido is thrusting with the katana."

But as far as any vestigial reputation aikido has for roots in kenjutsu, I think Graham's Golden Center videos drive a big nail in the coffin...

Just sayin'.....

Thanks.

David

David Orange
06-01-2012, 06:45 PM
Dear David,

I don't need to ask speculative questions about Mr. Rushdie....


Wow. Great story, Doc. :p

I remember the day I first heard of Salman Rushdie. I came into my office and found a newspaper on the receptionist's desk with a front-page photo of a massive crowd protesting. I saw that the protest was over a book someone had written, that thousands were involved.

As a writer, I thought to myself, "I wish I could write something that would move thousands of people so passionately."

And then I finished reading the caption: "They have vowed to kill the author on sight!"

I almost spewed. I rethought my desire to move people so passionately. Even one person that excited was more than I wanted.

I didn't mean to present Rushdie as a bad example, but just as an example of a lighting rod you might now want to stand to near--or to have crediting you as his inspiration: "I I learned it all from my mentor, Mr. ......."

Leave me off that list!

Thanks.

David

graham christian
06-01-2012, 08:13 PM
Wait.

Who started this thread?

Who asserted in the first post:

"I/P is given as tracing from chinese this and that and seen as being 'hidden' from the western or even those outside certain inner circles. This may well be the case in a lot of instances but the paranoia that goes with it I find amusing. Firstly because I think it doesn't apply to Ueshibas Aikido and secondly because it is possible for most in this day and age, if they are dedicated enough to go and find a good teacher of such things.

So what's the big secret? Nothing."

You conclude here that it really amounts to Nothing. You assert that you know this and in other threads you have asserted that you have met many people with internals and that you understand and do the internal aspects of aiki. Further, you know enough about the spirituality of aikido to say authoritatively that IP is not related to spirituality, that the in/yo ho has no bearing on Japanese concepts of spirituality and that the Chinese paradigms of balancing yin and yang in the body, along with Ueshiba's extensive comments on balancing in/yo (yin yang) in the body are not related to that.....

I don't know. Is there some way we can poll the membership? I think you'll find that most people here perceive your statements to mean that you do understand and practice IP.

Show of hands?

Just saying...it sounds like what you're saying and I think most people perceive you to be saying that.

Cheers.

David

I give up with you, my last response to you as my English is so bad that you keep mistranslating what is there.

I do practice I/P??? Wow! You actually think anyone thinks that? Don't bother answering as you thinking such things is way beyond me.

Translating that I say I/P Is nothing??? That I conclude that I/P amounts to nothing????

Misread concept once again. There is no secret or mystery about it, you can go out and find someone who teaches it anytime.

I know a side of the equasion of this thread and therefor can say with Authority the other side of the equasion is not the same. This has been spelled out many times in this one thread.

How that equals your above conclusions is beyond me. Our exchanges end here on this thread, I think they have run their course. (from this end anyway)

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-02-2012, 10:55 AM
The attempts to shut people down that can do what they do in Aikido is obvious. Maybe a threat is perceived. The response seems over the top to me.

Hi Mary.
From what I read on this forum before it seems I missed some phenomenon that happened a few years back and I've heard it referred to as the Ki wars.

On this forum and in the field of Aikido that has never changed and perhaps never will.

My basic view is as you no doubt have heard before that Ueshiba was a very spiritual man who realized the spiritual cause and ways of things and could demonstrate that via Aikido, saying it is merely a manifestation of such.

Beyond that however and the main point I would like to make is that thereafter as Aikido devloped and spread you ended up with two main types. One type emphasized the spiritual or Ki aspects and the other emphasized the physical.

So it appears came about the strange phenomenon of the Ki wars.

The major factor for me is more to do with the type of people each side attracts.

Ki Aikido and and offshoots like yours for example tend to attract more spiritually free people, it resonates more with those kind of people.

The more physical emphasized styles tend to attract the more fighting kind of people.

Thus the physical tend to see the others as weaker and the more spiritual tend to see the physical as brutish and stupid.

These are nice generalizations put simply but I think they will resonate with some.

The problem on the Ki side of things is that by attracting such people the down side is you get a lot of airy fairy unreal folk practicing in various places. It goes with the territory. Now those from the other side of this equation jump on that and hold them up as prime examples, you know the scene.

Now on the other side of the coin you have the problem with the fighting side. The downside here is that it also attracts the control freaks, the mini despots.

Each side has thus it's downside.

Actually now, with I/P you have an influence which will probably atrract both airy fairy and control freaks as it's downside.

Like bad weather it is something you can complain about ad infinitum but you will always get it so it's best to learn how to enjoy it I say.

Just my thoughts.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-02-2012, 11:55 AM
My basic view is as you no doubt have heard before that Ueshiba was a very spiritual man who realized the spiritual cause and ways of things and could demonstrate that via Aikido, saying it is merely a manifestation of such.

Beyond that however and the main point I would like to make is that thereafter as Aikido devloped and spread you ended up with two main types. One type emphasized the spiritual or Ki aspects and the other emphasized the physical.

Graham, you must have missed me to throw out such a passive aggressive bunch of statements when you just said you were through with this thread.

Frankly, your statement is quite ignorant but I only say so because it appears to be perfectly willful. First, there are no "different types" of aikido. There is just aikido--like there's "just gold". The only question is: "Is it real aikido or a fake?"

But to work with your own classifications, no one could better exemplify the "physical" type of aikido than Minoru Mochizuki, yet he was a deeply spiritual man, deeply educated and respected by people of every nation and he was one of the closest personal friends Morihei Ueshiba ever had.

During the war, he was not a military man but was deputy governor of three provinces in Mongolia, managing many cities. To keep those cities safe from communist army attacks, he trained "folk doctors" and stationed them in the countryside around each city. The hard-working local people would come to the folk doctors with their injuries and ailments, and because the doctors helped them, they developed a great trust not only for the doctors but for Minoru Mochizuki. When communist troops moved anywhere in the rural areas, the locals told the folk doctors, who sent runners to the affected cities. If military action was required to defend the cities, the defenders went out and met the attackers outside the cities, thus sparing the people from street-to-street fighting within their cities.

Sensei built bridges and irrigation systems to uplift the Mongolian people and after the war, he maintained contacts with them. When I lived in Shizuoka, he took in a young Mongolian woman who was studying at the local university and let her stay in the dojo, alerting all the yakuza to leave her alone. She was under his protection.

He received other Mongolians at the dojo as well, and when he came to Alabama in the late 1980s, he gave out some materials for Mongolian rare earth mining concerns to try to uplift the Mongolian economy. He remained a friend to the Mongolian people all his life. He was deeply versed in world religions and esoteric Japanese history.

Why would Morihei Ueshiba favor such a person, famous for his judo and ken jutsu skills? It was simply because Morihei Ueshiba respected very personally powerful people. Think of Tenryu for another example.

But show me one "spiritual" person, with pathetic physical abilities who gained the respect of OSensei.

I don't think you can.

Ki Aikido and and offshoots like yours for example tend to attract more spiritually free people, it resonates more with those kind of people.

What does that mean--"spiritually free"???

That, again, is a passive-aggressive shot at people who do yoseikan, yoshinkan, iwama and other styles that maintain excellent aikido technique. Everyone here can see that. Don't you realize that?

The more physical emphasized styles tend to attract the more fighting kind of people.

Graham, it sounds like you've been in a lot more fights than I have. I've never tussled with anyone on the street or elsewhere. The meaning of serious budo is "to stop the fight," but that requires real physical ability. What don't you understand about that?

Thus the physical tend to see the others as weaker and the more spiritual tend to see the physical as brutish and stupid.

What a bizarre generalization, man. Who do you think sees Koichi Tohei as "weak"?

The fact is that it appears that many of the dojo descending from Tohei did devolve into weakness simply because they did not understand the fundamental truth that Japanese spirituality is based on a union of mind, body and ki. They (and apparently you) believe that we can develop great powers of mind and ki without developing the body to the same degree. And in aikido, this is done through physical aikido technique. The budo way to develop the mind and ki is through the body.

Now on the other side of the coin you have the problem with the fighting side. The downside here is that it also attracts the control freaks, the mini despots.

:D That's a good one, Graham! We had a guy on here not long ago whom I have actually met. My nickname for him was "L'il Hitler" because he is such a control freak. Like you, he likes to talk about concepts like takimiso aiki, defending translations of writings he can't read, demanding universal respect for the authority behind his own lineage while slandering many far greater teachers.

And I can assure you, I have suffered far more cheap shots and opportunistic attempts to injure me in the schools that emphasize their fantasies of "spirituality" over the gold standard of developing the spirit through training the body. Control freaks and cheap shot artists with smug, superior smiles.

You may have all those you want. Ueshiba would not have given them the time of day.

Actually now, with I/P you have an influence which will probably atrract both airy fairy and control freaks as it's downside.

:p You're killing me, Graham. Again, you assert knowledge of IP. See your own post, two up.

It's an enjoyable read.
:cool:

David

graham christian
06-02-2012, 12:38 PM
Graham, you must have missed me to throw out such a passive aggressive bunch of statements when you just said you were through with this thread.

Frankly, your statement is quite ignorant but I only say so because it appears to be perfectly willful. First, there are no "different types" of aikido. There is just aikido--like there's "just gold". The only question is: "Is it real aikido or a fake?"

But to work with your own classifications, no one could better exemplify the "physical" type of aikido than Minoru Mochizuki, yet he was a deeply spiritual man, deeply educated and respected by people of every nation and he was one of the closest personal friends Morihei Ueshiba ever had.

During the war, he was not a military man but was deputy governor of three provinces in Mongolia, managing many cities. To keep those cities safe from communist army attacks, he trained "folk doctors" and stationed them in the countryside around each city. The hard-working local people would come to the folk doctors with their injuries and ailments, and because the doctors helped them, they developed a great trust not only for the doctors but for Minoru Mochizuki. When communist troops moved anywhere in the rural areas, the locals told the folk doctors, who sent runners to the affected cities. If military action was required to defend the cities, the defenders went out and met the attackers outside the cities, thus sparing the people from street-to-street fighting within their cities.

Sensei built bridges and irrigation systems to uplift the Mongolian people and after the war, he maintained contacts with them. When I lived in Shizuoka, he took in a young Mongolian woman who was studying at the local university and let her stay in the dojo, alerting all the yakuza to leave her alone. She was under his protection.

He received other Mongolians at the dojo as well, and when he came to Alabama in the late 1980s, he gave out some materials for Mongolian rare earth mining concerns to try to uplift the Mongolian economy. He remained a friend to the Mongolian people all his life. He was deeply versed in world religions and esoteric Japanese history.

Why would Morihei Ueshiba favor such a person, famous for his judo and ken jutsu skills? It was simply because Morihei Ueshiba respected very personally powerful people. Think of Tenryu for another example.

But show me one "spiritual" person, with pathetic physical abilities who gained the respect of OSensei.

I don't think you can.

What does that mean--"spiritually free"???

That, again, is a passive-aggressive shot at people who do yoseikan, yoshinkan, iwama and other styles that maintain excellent aikido technique. Everyone here can see that. Don't you realize that?

Graham, it sounds like you've been in a lot more fights than I have. I've never tussled with anyone on the street or elsewhere. The meaning of serious budo is "to stop the fight," but that requires real physical ability. What don't you understand about that?

What a bizarre generalization, man. Who do you think sees Koichi Tohei as "weak"?

The fact is that it appears that many of the dojo descending from Tohei did devolve into weakness simply because they did not understand the fundamental truth that Japanese spirituality is based on a union of mind, body and ki. They (and apparently you) believe that we can develop great powers of mind and ki without developing the body to the same degree. And in aikido, this is done through physical aikido technique. The budo way to develop the mind and ki is through the body.

:D That's a good one, Graham! We had a guy on here not long ago whom I have actually met. My nickname for him was "L'il Hitler" because he is such a control freak. Like you, he likes to talk about concepts like takimiso aiki, defending translations of writings he can't read, demanding universal respect for the authority behind his own lineage while slandering many far greater teachers.

And I can assure you, I have suffered far more cheap shots and opportunistic attempts to injure me in the schools that emphasize their fantasies of "spirituality" over the gold standard of developing the spirit through training the body. Control freaks and cheap shot artists with smug, superior smiles.

You may have all those you want. Ueshiba would not have given them the time of day.

:p You're killing me, Graham. Again, you assert knowledge of IP. See your own post, two up.

It's an enjoyable read.
:cool:

David

Ahhh, I must be missing you, it's love ha, ha. If you are a control freak then it was directed at you and whoever else. If you are not then it wasn't. If I am then it's against myself. As I said, its a generality. You my friend may see it or take it personally, it's up to you.

Nice story about mongolia etc. Nothing to do with what I said but nice nonetheless.

Your 'lil' hitler friend sounds quite cute. Met many like him and like you. What's the big deal?

You don't know what spiritually free means you say and that's obvious and rather accentuates my point.

Maybe I should just call them 'body fixated' people.

Peace.G.

Mark Freeman
06-02-2012, 12:38 PM
We do see what you're doing as damaging the reputation of aikido in general as a real martial art, damaging the reputation aikido has as a sword art, and possibly damaging your students' chances of ever developing a real understanding of the arts. Also, since some people do seem to give you some credence (few of them, apparently, being experienced aikido people), there is the chance, as Hugh Breyer pointed out, that you can bring real damage to those who follow you.

Hi David,

once you get your teeth into something, you don't let go do you?;)

I can't see for the life of me, how Graham can bring real damage to those who follow him. They are adults and they follow through choice, as all aikidoka do their own teachers. How would this damage manifest, physical, mental, spiritual?


Add to this your authoritative views on IP when you seem never to have experienced it and you can begin to see why the opposition to what you do (including speaking about IP and spirituality) becomes so strong. Mark Freeman indicated that he appreciates what you are, but that what you do does not compare with what Dan does (I think he actually said "Graham is no Dan Harden..."). So it seems that whatever you do, it's not on the same scale of measures we have found with the IP of Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa.

Well David, you are no Dan Harden, and I say that, without having met you yet.:) Nobody can be someone else. Why would they want to be? As it happens, thats not what I said, for the record, I said:So back to Graham... his aikido is no less martially effective than my own... Which proves nothing, maybe neither of us know what we are doing or talking about...that is possible, but in my trying to be modest mind, unlikely.

Graham is a bit of an anomily though, he is his own man teaching in his own way, using language that means what it means to him, which others may struggle with. And he can demonstrate in the flesh each of the principles he talks about. It's true that you don't meet many aikidoka wearing hats, but I have practiced with Sikhs who wear their hair under a cover as a matter of practice and belief, and both Graham and his friend who joined us later, are no different. What I did get from both of them was their long term committment to following their own path of 'budo is love', finding aikido as their chosen and apt vehicle to attain that goal.

And if I got into a physical skirmish in dear old London town where they live, I would like to have either of them there with me on my side.

Is Graham 'better' than my own teacher? No, but then few are.
Should Graham meet Dan? That is entirely up to Graham and his own choices.
Would Graham benefit from meeting Dan? Probably, I did, but again, personal choice.
Did I learn stuff from Graham? Yes, and I'm pretty sure he got to learn stuff from me too.
I'd happily go back and train with Graham again, as he is a nice guy, with a soft but strong presence.

Overall, a positive experience for me, great to meet such an individual, who walks his talk, and is happy to share what he has. We practiced with both full resistance and non-resistance, and both are happy with the fact that the path of aikido is one of non-resistance.

I hope all of my encounters when I start my travels and explorations are as cordial and productive.

I'm not sure why you have such a strong reaction to all he stands for, why not let him do his thing? We are all in this game, for our own ends, I'm sure if you were ever in London, and you visited Graham, you would receive the same welcome as I did. No doubt you would both enjoy the encounter, and I can't imagine that you both wouldn't come away having learnt something about each other and possibly yourselves. Till then, it's all just hot pixels, padding out a thread.

regards,

Mark

lbb
06-02-2012, 01:37 PM
To answer your question literally, no, it's not exactly the same. If it was, I'd be recommending a few folks be banned.

To answer the question I think you were really asking, yes, it's analogous. And if you don't agree, I'm prepared to argue you are not studying budo but some odd, stylized exercise regimen.

I have no idea what question you think I was asking, so perhaps you'd better tell me what it was, in actual words, so that I can decide if it is in fact something that I would ever ask. As for whether I did ask it? No, I didn't. The question I asked was the one that I wrote.

hughrbeyer
06-02-2012, 04:15 PM
You actually wrote two questions, which were not equivalent. And I have little patience for word games.

David Orange
06-02-2012, 08:01 PM
Ahhh, I must be missing you, it's love ha, ha. If you are a control freak then it was directed at you and whoever else. If you are not then it wasn't. If I am then it's against myself. As I said, its a generality. You my friend may see it or take it personally, it's up to you.

No, I don't take it personally, by any means. I took it as an attempt to slur and minimize the importance of IP training by Dan and others who talk about it, including me to the degree that I actually represent any depth of IP, which is not far. But I have felt it and can at least compare it to the many kinds of ordinary aikido I have experienced and I can say certainly that what Dan and Ark teach is definitely far beyond the level of most aikidoka I've ever met.

Nice story about mongolia etc. Nothing to do with what I said but nice nonetheless.

Yes, it was directly related to what you said...in the sense that it disproves your claim entirely. Mochizuki was known as a physical player and he had master level rank in several Japanese arts. But his work in the ordinary world was always to protect the people. In this case, he was put "in charge" of a huge chunk of Mongolia and those people became "his people" to protect. And I described that how he did it was on a barely-visible level, requiring very little physical effort and for the most part prevented fighting. And since you clearly can't understand that as high spiritual refinement, I guess you are thinking that spirituality is only having visions and being nice.

Your 'lil' hitler friend sounds quite cute. Met many like him and like you. What's the big deal?

No, Graham. You have never met anyone like me.

You don't know what spiritually free means you say and that's obvious and rather accentuates my point.

No, dude. I know what spiritually free is. I am spiritually free. The question is what do you mean by the term? I can't find anything in your words or actions or in the videos of yourself that indicates that you understand.

Maybe I should just call them 'body fixated' people.

The term you're looking for is budoka.

There must be a translation somewhere....

:D

David

graham christian
06-02-2012, 08:17 PM
As I said David, I've met many like you. I understand you see it as you describe. May you continue to do so.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-02-2012, 09:27 PM
Hi David,

once you get your teeth into something, you don't let go do you?;)

If you come down to Birmingham while you're in the US, I'll buy you a steak and you can watch me tear up a salad!

I can't see for the life of me, how Graham can bring real damage to those who follow him. They are adults and they follow through choice, as all aikidoka do their own teachers. How would this damage manifest, physical, mental, spiritual?

Maybe it's only minor. What harm would it have done me to continue training under the false student of Mas Oyama? I would be living a lie without knowing it....at least that.....but if I then assimilated his philosophies and even followed him when he announced that he had "added judo" to kyokushin and created "kyokushinjukai" or something....maybe it would lead me far, far from respect for truth.

Today I took my seven-year-old son to a rock and mineral show. There must have been a million dollars' worth of geodes, crystals, sliced agate, every kind of gemstone...just tons and tons of beautiful rocks and minerals on display.

My purpose was twofold: to get some nice crystals to improve the feng shui in my home and to get my son several nice samples of minerals and gems for his nascent collection (he loves nascents).

But I noticed something I never saw before until recently. Many displays included "dyed" crystals--low quality stones that had somehow been injected with some kind of dye to impart strange, unnatural but vivid colors.

My boy thought these things were wonderful.

I had to explain to him that they were a waste of money. I had to help him establish the value of natural form and beauty--the power of nature--and guide him to understand the difference. He did get some "rubbing rocks," but after we spent a fair bit of money, we came away with amethyst geodes, quartz crystals, polished tiger eyes, gypsum roses, rose quartz...just beautiful bunches of 'the real thing'.

Of course, there's no way I can influence anyone who attends Graham's classes, but I see aikiweb as more or less a dojo. In a real dojo, often, there's a person who is always there and sometimes you can come to dread going to the dojo because you know that person will be there. Usually, this is someone of higher skill. Those of lower skill and a lot of ignorant opinions can be wearisome to the higher level people, but the one who is dreaded is generally the stronger and far more experienced person. The lower-skilled hates to see that person because it raises the bar for their own performance. If that person isn't there, you can do whatever you want. But when the more powerful and experienced person is around, you have to work hard to keep up (or just keep from puking).

To me (just to be absolutely clear), Graham is offering something "new and different"--dyed crystals which not only are not natural, but which represent the ruin of something that was natural and good. That stupid dye cannot be removed from the dyed stone because it is pressure-injected (as I understand the process).

Have you ever trained in Japan, by the way? Could you imagine Graham walking into a Japanese dojo (a good one--say Iwama or Yoshinkan hombu), with his rasta hat and showing the same stuff he shows on his vids? What do you think would happen?

I'm not seeking out Graham's students. I'm talking directly to him and as you can see, when I play back his own statements, turns out the meaning has changed since he said them....

OK.

Well David, you are no Dan Harden, and I say that, without having met you yet.:) Nobody can be someone else. Why would they want to be?

You don't have to meet me to know I'm not on Dan's level. That's why I went to try to learn from him. At least I did step up there (as you also did) to at least find out whether you've "been there, done that," as I think Graham has literally claimed somewhere. You know you can't do what Dan does. I know I can't do it. But it seems Graham is convinced the he can do it, even after you met him and judged (by what I read of your statement) that he can't.

As it happens, thats not what I said, for the record, I said:
"....Would Graham benefit from meeting Dan? Probably...."

I did note that you said Graham's aikido is no less martially effective than your own. That's interesting. But you seem about 1000 times as open-minded as Graham, who seems utterly committed to remaining convinced that there's nothing under the sun he hasn't seen and mastered--including Ueshiba's esoteric Japanese terms and their varying translations.

I'm not sure why you have such a strong reaction to all he stands for, why not let him do his thing?

You mean, let him take those passive-aggressive shots and make those bizarre statements about translations and what Ueshiba really meant without question?

I'm not really stopping him, am I?

But I think it's good for him to have to at least hear some responses to what I consider to be very bad statements from him. If you hit me, your hand should hurt. I remember once a Canadian guy who sat at the edge of the dojo with his feet sticking out onto the tatami. Tezuka Sensei saw this and looked at him like one of the temple guardian statues and told him to pull his feet back. Similar response to a guy sitting on a window sill. He didn't hate the guys, but he clearly thought they should know better, so he looked a bit put out and spoke sharply to them. Part of that was a budo response and part was "just being Japanese." But he was an incredible master, in any case.

That kind of experience pressure-injected budo values into my crystalline structure. I'm not sure what that vivid colorful stuff is in Graham's teaching, but it hits me like seeing him lying down on the mats.

We are all in this game, for our own ends...

Well, we can have our own reasons for training, but we also have a responsibility to the truth of the art. We are not free to present just anything as "aikido".

I mean....yeah, we're free to do whatever, like the karate guy was free to claim that he was a black belt under Mas Oyama....but the real black belt was not only free to call him on it: as Oyama's real student, it was his duty. And I am glad he did tell my father (I was 17) and get me to come to his classes instead. He gave me a tremendous example of kiai that I can still hear in my heart.

I'm sure if you were ever in London, and you visited Graham, you would receive the same welcome as I did.

I don't doubt that. Graham seems like a nice guy and I'd probably enjoy talking about a lot of things with him, chillin'....heck, I'd even wear a rasta hat (after training, when I'm in my normal Superman attire).

No doubt you would both enjoy the encounter, and I can't imagine that you both wouldn't come away having learnt something about each other and possibly yourselves. Till then, it's all just hot pixels, padding out a thread.

I consider Graham to be every bit my equal, as a human being. But I think I'm a better writer. I probably know more about some subjects than he does and he probably knows a lot more about some things than I do. But I do think I'm a more rigorous thinker than Graham and in particular, I know a lot more about Japanese things from A to Z...so I just wish he wouldn't pontificate so smugly about those matters when he clearly doesn't understand them.

And, seriously, I do hope you'll call on me if you get down my way in the USA. It would be my honor to act as your host. Also, if you should encounter troubles on the road, I would hope you would get in touch with me.

Gassho.

David

Gary David
06-02-2012, 10:49 PM
Folks
All things considered....maybe we should let this thread go....... A number of us here that have spoken out about one or more aspects of Graham's approach when talking about IP, that is just one aspect of getting the whole to work as a whole. It is likely we are working with some version of The Six Harmonies in mind. One these versions is:

The body harmonizes with the mind;
The mind harmonizes with the intention
The intention harmonizes with the Qi;
The Qi harmonizes with the spirit
The spirit harmonizes with the movement;
The movement harmonizes with nothingness

After a few exchanges with Graham my sense now of how he looks at what he does and his Spiritual Aikido seems to start with spiritual aspects first,

With nothingness, love, ki and spirit (and maybe another) harmonizing the mind.
With this leading to relaxed body movement,
With this in alignment with spiritual aspects

In any case to me it looks like Graham works from the other end of this than maybe the rest of us do.

How he gets there I am not sure.
I don't know if it works.
I don't know if it holds up.....

but it is his choice.....so maybe just let it ride....let it be.........

Just let it go.......

Gary

hughrbeyer
06-02-2012, 11:46 PM
I guess it's clear I'm with Orenji on this one. Yeah, it's good to keep perspective; yeah, in the big scheme of things this is a tempest in a teapot; yeah, people are adults; yeah, any harm done is probably very minor.

But the big scheme of things in which none of us amount to all that much is not how we measure our humanity. We can only affect the world in our own scale, and in that scale all these things matter a lot. We're either bending the curve towards truth or falsity. We're either offering true color or false--even if the false look brighter on first glance.

Norms and standards aren't maintained unless they're enforced. I think they're worth enforcing.

mathewjgano
06-02-2012, 11:56 PM
Folks
All things considered....maybe we should let this thread go....... A number of us here that have spoken out about one or more aspects of Graham's approach when talking about IP, that is just one aspect of getting the whole to work as a whole. It is likely we are working with some version of The Six Harmonies in mind. One these versions is:

The body harmonizes with the mind;
The mind harmonizes with the intention
The intention harmonizes with the Qi;
The Qi harmonizes with the spirit
The spirit harmonizes with the movement;
The movement harmonizes with nothingness

After a few exchanges with Graham my sense now of how he looks at what he does and his Spiritual Aikido seems to start with spiritual aspects first,

With nothingness, love, ki and spirit (and maybe another) harmonizing the mind.
With this leading to relaxed body movement,
With this in alignment with spiritual aspects

In any case to me it looks like Graham works from the other end of this than maybe the rest of us do.

How he gets there I am not sure.
I don't know if it works.
I don't know if it holds up.....

but it is his choice.....so maybe just let it ride....let it be.........

Just let it go.......

Gary
For what it's worth, I like that very much.
Not sure how helpful this is or how much it relates exactly, but in the context of problem solving I see both the Spiritual and the IP concepts as involving the harmonization of the self with Great Nature. The Other (person) is, in certain respects, moot. Ideally, we harmonize with nature and let the evidence and natural "superiority" speak for itself. So when we have two people speaking differently, hopefully this principle is applied and one forms such a beautifully cohesive and potent message that it stands on its own such that those who might potentially be harmed by the Other's potentially harmful message (even good and truly authoritative messages can cause harm) will see something compelling and cannot help but be moved in a positive direction.
To be clear, I am not speaking of specific people or situations. I also believe we've carried that conversation as far as it can likely go...:D again.
Still, I do appreciate all the different thoughts shared. It's not always pleasant to read such contentious conversations, but upon reflection I've come to the view that sharing an honest opinion is a kind of gift, and I am grateful to have the chance to gain an insight into the values and judgements of such dedicated people.

Pleasant evening to you all,
Matthew

graham christian
06-03-2012, 08:11 AM
Thanks Matthew and Gary for pointing out something.

In the past I have explained how I was taught from a zen perspective and even said a number of times that you could say my approach is 'backwards' compared to how most do it. The different things I have said I thought communicated sufficiently for people to understand I use a different approach.

Through exchanges via pm I see that it could be better (maybe) to do a thread called 'my approach' or some such. The reason being that those who keep 'contending' and 'misunderstanding' what I say and giving analogies with people they have met which are in fact nothing like me and with totally different approaches and effectiveness.

This up to now I have found fascinating and sometimes amusing but realize now that although I may learn about others and their views I would have to present almost a whole in depth structured explanation and philosophical base for some to understand.

Most don;t need to for they can see my way is different in approach and have no need to go any further and know if they ever meet me then any curio would be answered. Some however feel a need to equate it with other things. I am now thinking, forget all the given 'reasons' such give and believe for them I would have to give as I have said above.

I can't say my way is new really because I was taught 'similarly' from early eighties.

I can't say my approach is new really because it is as old as the hills.

I can say it is very rare to find others who use this approach.

I can say that no one is ever under any delusions that my approach is anything to do with any organizational Aikido. So they start off knowing not to compare with other Aikido and are encouraged to, when they feel ready, go out and physically train with other styles in order to satisfy any curiosity.

Those who come from other styles in the first place of course don't need to.

Therefor I don't need to say it's like any Aikido they have seen or experienced so there is no false presentation. This is knocked on the head from day one, usually prior to day one.

There is one method I use as a tool for beginners and as it happens it runs through all levels which people will be familiar with and that is the Ki Aikido approach. However even with that I point out my Aikido is not that.

I have a friend who teaches praying mantis kung fu, no more than a mile from here. He broke away from the organization and went independent and developed his own way too. Now his way is his way. No one relates it to others. My 'godson' trains with him. Although he is seen as a type of 'outcast' for not toeing the party line and many 'barriers' are thrown his way for not doing so by over zealot folk in that arena, and by the way because he is not 'chinese' he carries on none the less.

He doesn't mind, in fact enjoys being a small operation. His students are happy. Just as an aside in that arena there are competitions. He does still enter any students that want to into them. My 'godson'
actually won the British championship too a few years back. So contrary to popular belief throughout martial arts there are many good small operations around. Not everyone wants to be in the big show.

Peace.G.

Hellis
06-03-2012, 09:31 AM
Hi Graham

Sorry if this comes under - off topic -
I have recently completed an article on Masamichi Noro Sensei for the next `IHTBF` series, detailing personal experiences training with the masters of Budo.
I note,somewhere, you claim that your teacher Mike Muspratt was a student of Noro Sensei?
I was the personal assistant to Ken Williams Sensei and therefore involved in seminars – summer schools - during each and every one of the early visiting Aikido masters.

Derek Eastman and I also made visits to Noro Sensei’s dojo in Paris.
I am not questioning the fact that Mr Muspratt may have attended a seminar / course with Noro Sensei or an occasional visit to the HutDojo? – I am just curious as to how you can claim Mr Muspratt was a `student of Noro Sensei`.
I don’t personally remember Mr Muspratt either at the Hut dojo or on courses, so I would be interested in any info you may have ?
Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

graham christian
06-03-2012, 10:33 AM
Hi Graham

Sorry if this comes under - off topic -
I have recently completed an article on Masamichi Noro Sensei for the next `IHTBF` series, detailing personal experiences training with the masters of Budo.
I note,somewhere, you claim that your teacher Mike Muspratt was a student of Noro Sensei?
I was the personal assistant to Ken Williams Sensei and therefore involved in seminars – summer schools - during each and every one of the early visiting Aikido masters.

Derek Eastman and I also made visits to Noro Sensei’s dojo in Paris.
I am not questioning the fact that Mr Muspratt may have attended a seminar / course with Noro Sensei or an occasional visit to the HutDojo? – I am just curious as to how you can claim Mr Muspratt was a `student of Noro Sensei`.
I don’t personally remember Mr Muspratt either at the Hut dojo or on courses, so I would be interested in any info you may have ?
Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Hi Henry.
Simply I claim because because I have no reason to disbelieve him. I have asked my friend about this who started with me to check even my recalls and yet he recalls even your name and Sensei Williams name being mentioned to us on a number of occasions. Hence my surprise with you not remembering. I do recall you mentioning him in a post in as much as someone you knew went to a dojo in north watford which probably was him.

His stories of his numerous exploits revolved around two charachters, Noro and Tohei. Noro as his teacher and Tohei as his prefered explanations. Many other charachters were mentioned on the English side of things and many seemed to pass through our place. We didn't know who was who at the time and were not interested as students.

So I can claim who my teacher was and as for the rest I am sure it's easily verifyable.

Those from the past who trained with him prior to me would be the best ones to ask if you want more details. I have the name of one such who runs his own school and is in fact in the picture with him I once posted from the 1978 I think Tohei summer camp in wales I believe. So you can get in touch with him if you like, he has fond memories of Mike.

I respect his wishes and so don't trouble him with such matters but I am sure you could if you really wanted to contact him yourself. He still trains to this day. He's still at the same location. Like Ken williams he doesn't want or have much to do with the outside politics of things and gossip. Unlike Ken Williams he doesn't head or run an organization.

Anything else you would like to know from me as to names or contact details I'll give you via pm.

Finally all I will say is this, which may or may not trigger any memories. The two main things he told me and Bob back then as his reasons for splitting were these.

1) He felt if he made a big scene about the political situation at the time it would have ended up causing yet another faction following him and so decided against that.

2) That on the spiritual or Ki Test side of things most were not interested and those who were were as a lot are described today. He said they talked and acted like they could do these Ki tests but he would test them and find he would have to fail them so they were being unreal.

Such are the two main consideratins he had as relayed to us which he said led to him going private.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-03-2012, 11:30 AM
In the past I have explained how I was taught from a zen perspective and even said a number of times that you could say my approach is 'backwards' compared to how most do it. The different things I have said I thought communicated sufficiently for people to understand I use a different approach.

What, really, do you mean by "a zen perspective," Graham?

Having read your whole post, it points up the fundamental problem: what you say and show (on vids) seems to have no relation to either aikido or Zen.

And the question then becomes, did you just make all this up?

Or did your teacher just make it all up? He created "his own style of Zen"?

Is it a VW with a BMW hood ornament?

A lion with an elephant's snout? A dog with flippers???

Where did this come from?

Doesn't look like or sound or read anything even vaguely related to either Morihei Ueshiba's practice or to Zen.

So at least, please describe what you're calling zen and how it relates to Morihei Ueshiba's art.

Thanks.

David

David Orange
06-03-2012, 12:24 PM
Simply I claim because because I have no reason to disbelieve him. I have asked my friend about this who started with me to check even my recalls and yet he recalls even your name and Sensei Williams name being mentioned to us on a number of occasions. Hence my surprise with you not remembering. I do recall you mentioning him in a post in as much as someone you knew went to a dojo in north watford which probably was him.

I once had a fellow come to my class at a YMCA in Birmingham (Alabama). His student may have come to an earlier class and brought this guy along as his "teacher" to see what I was doing. The "teacher" advised me that he had created his own style from "kyokushin karate, kodokan judo (very specifically) and Tae Kwon Do." He showed me some of his kihon waza and it was just bizarre. His karate did not approach anyone's who had taught me to that point and his judo....I just couldn't see where it came into the equation. He wore a pendant of a fist-in-palm within a circle, on a little chain around his neck. I didn't notice it during warm-ups. I didn't allow any jewelry or rings of any kind during our practices, so I told him he'd have to take the pendant off when we went into technique practice. "It might cut your neck, or someone's hand with the techniques we do."

He looked shocked and said, "Oh, no! I never take this off!" and he backed off the mat bowing elaborately and giving me the praying hands. He sat to the side and watched while his student actually went through the workout. At the end of our two-hour session, as we were all headed for the locker rooms to change clothes, the student approached me and said, "Sensei wants to fight with you (or spar or randori, or whatever)."

I just didn't reply and went on to change. My reasons were very simple: the guy didn't go through the workout, so he hadn't earned the right to randori; he undoubtedly intended to wear that medallion while "fighting" and I wasn't going to have that; since he hadn't trained with me, I wasn't sure of how his body would move or how well he could take the falls; and I didn't know much about him as a person, what his temperament would be. Also, with the Tae Kwon Do influence, I wasn't sure what kind of things he would try but I felt there was a lot more danger for him than for me. I didn't want to have some nut's broken neck on my account.

However, with his background and the nature of his "art," I figured he would also claim that "his art" was composed of kyokushin karate, kodokan judo, tae kwon do and yoseikan aikido. Who knows? He may have decided that watching my class qualified him for a black belt in yoseikan (even though I was only ikkyu at the time). We actually did have a guy who started awarding ranks in yoseikan after observing a number of classes. Granted, we were running classes from his established dojo and he was a very experienced teacher of jujutsu, judo and karate, but he had not trained in the yoseikan classes and no one had ranked him even shodan. So how could he promote and rank people in yoseikan? So I figured this guy with probably a few months each in kyokushin, judo and TKD, would soon be a master of yoseikan based on attending a brown-belt's single class.

So what might someone do after meeting Noro two or three times?

In my experience, there are plenty of people who would froth that up into a whole new Tao...

His stories of his numerous exploits revolved around two charachters, Noro and Tohei. Noro as his teacher and Tohei as his prefered explanations. Many other charachters were mentioned on the English side of things and many seemed to pass through our place. We didn't know who was who at the time and were not interested as students.

Well....."True Stories" are very easy to create, as I demonstrate in the "True" Story thread in the Open Discussions.

So I can claim who my teacher was and as for the rest I am sure it's easily verifiable.

Well....if it's so easy to verify.....

Or maybe it's not. I think T-Rex Sensei's summary is pretty telling. I mean....he was able to document Jack Poole's attendance. But Mike Muspratt just doesn't show up at all. If you claim to be an old-timer, but none of the old-timers remember you, though they remember each other and a lot of less-developed people who passed through...it just doesn't ring the bell.

As a student, that would bother me.

FWIW

David

Gary David
06-03-2012, 01:30 PM
Well....if it's so easy to verify.....

Or maybe it's not. I think T-Rex Sensei's summary is pretty telling. I mean....he was able to document Jack Poole's attendance. But Mike Muspratt just doesn't show up at all. If you claim to be an old-timer, but none of the old-timers remember you, though they remember each other and a lot of less-developed people who passed through...it just doesn't ring the bell.

As a student, that would bother me.

FWIW

David

Folks
FIRST off so as to not shock anyone....or have them fall off their chair.....I am not defending Graham!!

Having said that a couple of things:


Have not we run with this one to long?
Have we not spent enough energy on this one……and I am not talking about Graham's energy?
Has there not been enough dialog on Graham's lineage to give anyone who wonders places to confirm or deny?


Talking about "lineage"..... for some this can be very important, for others not so much.... let me explain what I mean by not so much. As someone else pointed out a way back the question of lineage revolves around the involvement of one as an uchi deshi.......you have direct lineage. For most of us we were associated with an instructor or instructors, but never as uchi deshi. So for me you list out the instructors you were/are associated with and the teachers that have had major impact on your journey. The only two dojo I have ever been connected to directly are Orange County Aiki Kai and Aikido Ai. The two instructors there, Harry K Ishisaka and Frank McGouirk, shaped large parts of my approach to Aikido. Other major contributors to what my Aikido is now and is becoming have been folks like John Clodig, Walter Muryasz, Frank Doran, Shōji Nishio, Mitsugi Saotome, Terry Dobson, Mark Murray, Dan Harden..........and even Mike Sigman. All of these folks have to some degree shaped my art, my thoughts, my questions......have altered my path or put light on it. Some of the contact has been in passing......but had lasting effects.........

As to Aikido.......to me it has become much like the tail of the blind men and the elephant. It has gone through so many set of folks each adding their "touch" as it has been passed along it doesn't seem to be much like the original......

Besides with the visibility as it is today.....everything gets exposed to the light......

just go straight....

Gary

Hellis
06-03-2012, 01:33 PM
Hi Graham

I was only interested as you had mentioned the connection with Mr Muspratt and Noro Sensei.
I do think there is a difference between being a student of a teacher and attending a lesson or two.

His stories of his numerous exploits revolved around two charachters, Noro and Tohei. Noro as his teacher and Tohei as his prefered explanations. Many other charachters were mentioned on the English side of things and many seemed to pass through our place. We didn't know who was who at the time and were not interested as students.

You may be familer with the Jack Poole controversy? I was contacted by phone by a senior dan grade of Mr Poole's, he asked me a few questions regarding the claims of Mr Poole. I invited to make the 30 min journey to my home and see my files - statements - photos - videos. I also offered him the full use of my printer. He came to see me, after seeing the evidence and a good chat, he said to me " Sensei Ellis, I totally believe you, I don't know if I can ever practice Aikido again - I have sat with Mr Poole and listened to many hours of wonderful stories of his life of Budo".

I felt for this really decent guy who had been betrayed by the teacher he trusted.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Kevin Leavitt
06-03-2012, 03:01 PM
In my area right now we have a guy awarding "jiu jitsu" blue belts to students after a few hours of seminar study. Not that I care but we have had these guys showing up at schools claiming to be blue belts in BJJ. On one hand it don't matter cause the mat don't lie in BJJ. On the other hand me and several of the senior black belts are concerned that someone may get hurt eventually working outside of their "pay grade". I don't really care about protecting the art...just as I am all about Graham or anyone else doing whatever they wish. Certainly don't think that he or anyone else is bringing down the art or anything. What he or anyone else does has no effect on me.

However, it is a shame when someone gets hurt and the relationship of trust is violated. I hate that. I was recently severely injured and I am recovering from a complete shoulder reconstruction cause, while I know what I am doing as a brown belt in BJJ, I got myself in over my head with a dojo I was visiting with a junior student that happened to have some decent skills. Before I knew it the guy finished an uchi mata with a full flip follow through and buried his shoulder into mine to complete the throw.

The point is, the trust relationship was violated. I trusted the dojo and the instructor would protect me, I trusted my skills and instincts. In the end, looking back, much went wrong quickly and if the layers of protection and supervision and assessment would have been there welll...it would not have happened.

So, in what we do...it requires a great deal of trust, care and honesty. When people lie, cheat or steal it will come back to hurt someone eventually. We can't afford for safety and health mentally, physically, and spiritually to allow this to remain broken.

So while it doesn't matter to me what another person chooses to do...I abhor those that lie, cheat, and steal and I have no room for them in my budo.

lbb
06-03-2012, 03:52 PM
You actually wrote two questions, which were not equivalent. And I have little patience for word games.

Word games? What I wrote was:

"Do you really think that this is an analogous situation? As in, that Graham's advice, if followed, will predictably and directly lead to serious physical harm?"

If you want to insist that that's two questions, okay, I won't argue with you. The second is actually not a sentence at all, but whatever. And I'm not playing word games. I'm summarizing your example as one in which advice was given that would, if followed, predictably and directly lead to serious physical harm, and asking you if you really think that Graham's advice would do the same. I'm just asking you to clarify your position. I'm not sure why you find the question offensive.

hughrbeyer
06-03-2012, 04:14 PM
If you want to insist that that's two questions, okay, I won't argue with you. The second is actually not a sentence at all, but whatever. And I'm not playing word games.

Uhmmm... yeah, okay.

Answers to your two questions can be found in my first response. Further answers are forthcoming, but having been warned not to make any assumptions about what you really mean, you'll have to ask them explicitly.

:hypno:

David Orange
06-03-2012, 04:20 PM
Folks
FIRST off so as to not shock anyone....or have them fall off their chair.....I am not defending Graham!!

Having said that a couple of things:


Have not we run with this one to long?
Have we not spent enough energy on this one……and I am not talking about Graham's energy?
Has there not been enough dialog on Graham's lineage to give anyone who wonders places to confirm or deny?


And yet...we all keep posting....

I do know what you mean. At the same time, every go-around seems to bring out a little more detail.

Talking about "lineage"..... for some this can be very important, for others not so much....

I don't really care which particular line anyone comes down through except I would like to see that it his connected on the other end to Morihei Ueshiba and it's also good to know how strongly it's connected. Down where I live, we have a hell of a grass-roots karate tradition and most of it is pure garbage, encouraging the kinds of things described above. Got a green belt under Mas Oyama? You can be fourth dan because there's a fifth dan who only got to blue belt under Oyama. Got six months each in karate, judo and kyudo? You are now Soke of your own traditional Japanese budo ryu. I was first exposed to this about 40 years ago when it had some twenty or thirty years of tradition. Now it has sixty or seventy years of tradition and it's hooked in with all kinds of World Soke Councils or World Headmaster Honor Patrols or something like that.

I'd just like to know that whoever I'm talking to got his stuff from someone with experience and in good standing with a real root source. Otherwise, it's just trash. Just trash.

That kind of thing, I like to discourage.

Anyway, points well made.

Best to you.

David

David Orange
06-03-2012, 04:24 PM
In my area right now we have a guy awarding "jiu jitsu" blue belts to students after a few hours of seminar study...

Well said. Speedy recovery.

David

graham christian
06-03-2012, 04:56 PM
I'll just say this to end this. I have met many from various structured organisations complete with 'empirical' this and that and like Dan (of all people, using him as an example, shame on me) they got shocked and bewildered and wondered why they hadn't been taught what they found with me. Thus they felt kind of 'betrayed'.

I on the other hand spent a lot of time getting them away from that view of betrayal by insisting that their teachers are teaching what they consider is all there is so it's not a betrayal. I appease them by saying they have not wasted any time because what they have learned is valuable. They can then add anything they learn from me and have the best of both worlds. As I keep saying, it's all good.

I have enquired as to my teacher 'prior' to teaching me and met some interesting folk. One, who is also a high Dan grade told me if I get any grief regarding Mikes credentials to put them in touch with him and he'll soon sort them out.

So I'm quite happy about it thank you very much.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-03-2012, 05:36 PM
I have enquired as to my teacher 'prior' to teaching me and met some interesting folk. One, who is also a high Dan grade told me if I get any grief regarding Mikes credentials to put them in touch with him and he'll soon sort them out.


Well, put me in touch, Graham.

Thanks.

David

sorokod
06-04-2012, 09:17 AM
I have informed how I started Aikido and it was called Zen Shin Kan Aikido. Emphasis....spirit.



I am curious if "Zen Shin Kan Aikido" was part of Jon Alexander's (trained with KENSHIRO-ABBE 10th Dan.) Zen Shin Budo Kai / Zen Shin Budo Alliance. There is a thread regarding this organisation on Bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99802

graham christian
06-04-2012, 01:08 PM
I am curious if "Zen Shin Kan Aikido" was part of Jon Alexander's (trained with KENSHIRO-ABBE 10th Dan.) Zen Shin Budo Kai / Zen Shin Budo Alliance. There is a thread regarding this organisation on Bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99802

No. No relationship. It's still where it is and where it has always been. A little private dojo, in north watford, nothing to do with nobody. Been there must be about 40 years.

Peace.G.

sorokod
06-04-2012, 01:59 PM
Been there must be about 40 years.

Fits well with Jon Alexander's career ( http://www.martialartstrainer.org.uk/2.html ) .

graham christian
06-04-2012, 02:14 PM
Just checked the first post. See you are.......mmmmm....oh well.

Peace.G.

Hellis
06-04-2012, 02:22 PM
I am curious if "Zen Shin Kan Aikido" was part of Jon Alexander's (trained with KENSHIRO-ABBE 10th Dan.) Zen Shin Budo Kai / Zen Shin Budo Alliance. There is a thread regarding this organisation on Bullshido: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99802

"KENSHIRO-ABBE 10th Dan and MASAFUMI-SUZUKI, 10th Dan, as well as many other prominent martial art teachers, most are unfortunately now deceased. "

It is very kind of Mr Alexander to promote Kenshiro Abbe Sensei to 10th dan - Abbe Sensei did decline 8th dan from the Kodokan - he accepted 8th dan from the Butokukwai.
I have spoken with Gerry Gyngell and others, no one knows of Mr Alexander. He should be honoured that Bulshido have recognised his fame.

One has to smile at "most are unfortunately now deceased" - how many of these people claim to have been trained by deceased Budo masters thinking there will be no come back.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Marc Abrams
06-04-2012, 02:50 PM
"KENSHIRO-ABBE 10th Dan and MASAFUMI-SUZUKI, 10th Dan, as well as many other prominent martial art teachers, most are unfortunately now deceased. "

It is very kind of Mr Alexander to promote Kenshiro Abbe Sensei to 10th dan - Abbe Sensei did decline 8th dan from the Kodokan - he accepted 8th dan from the Butokukwai.
I have spoken with Gerry Gyngell and others, no one knows of Mr Alexander. He should be honoured that Bulshido have recognised his fame.

One has to smile at "most are unfortunately now deceased" - how many of these people claim to have been trained by deceased Budo masters thinking there will be no come back.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Henry:

Hope things are well for you across the pond! If you ever track down Mike Muspratt's training lineage, I will look forward to reading that post..... People like Mr. Alexander have been around for a long, long time.... Honest questions with genuine scrutiny typically flesh them out. To me, people who do not question what they are told hold as much responsibility for perpetuating myths and lies as much as those who create the myths and lies.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hellis
06-04-2012, 03:51 PM
Henry:

Hope things are well for you across the pond! If you ever track down Mike Muspratt's training lineage, I will look forward to reading that post..... People like Mr. Alexander have been around for a long, long time.... Honest questions with genuine scrutiny typically flesh them out. To me, people who do not question what they are told hold as much responsibility for perpetuating myths and lies as much as those who create the myths and lies.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc

As you can see, I am still hanging on :-)

I would certainly not place Mike Muspratt in the same category as Mr Alexander and Jack Poole.

I spoke with my old friend Haydn Foster Sensei regarding Mr Muspratt shortly before Haydn passed away.
He had a good laugh at the memory of himself riding a pop pop moped all the way from Uxbridge in the London suburbs to Watford in Hertfordshire to teach at Mike Muspratt's dojo.
I actually remember him doing that. Haydn said that Mr Muspratt had visited the Hut Dojo occasionally, so I would not dispute that, I almost lived at the Hut dojo, I just don't remember him.

I don't doubt that Mr Muspratt attended the occasional courses with Nakazono Sensei and Noro Sensei.

My only dispute is with Graham's claim that Mr Muspratt was `a student of Noro Sensei` - that I would have remembered.

Over the years I have seen claims by so many people who were taught for several years by the dan grades from the Hut Dojo, they claim they were taught by a Japanese teacher who they had been on a seminar with at some point in their career.

I had a guy recently who became very abusive on my Kenshiro Abbe videos, he demanded to know why I had never mentioned his teacher who was a true pioneer of British Aikido.
I explained that the reason I never mentioned the guy was simple - I had never heard of him.
He countered with " My teacher was a special student and friend of Kenshiro Abbe for twenty years.
I suggested he inform his teacher that Abbe Sensei was only in the UK for nine years.
They walk amongst us.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Marc Abrams
06-04-2012, 04:23 PM
Hi Marc

As you can see, I am still hanging on :-)

I would certainly not place Mike Muspratt in the same category as Mr Alexander and Jack Poole.

I spoke with my old friend Haydn Foster Sensei regarding Mr Muspratt shortly before Haydn passed away.
He had a good laugh at the memory of himself riding a pop pop moped all the way from Uxbridge in the London suburbs to Watford in Hertfordshire to teach at Mike Muspratt's dojo.
I actually remember him doing that. Haydn said that Mr Muspratt had visited the Hut Dojo occasionally, so I would not dispute that, I almost lived at the Hut dojo, I just don't remember him.

I don't doubt that Mr Muspratt attended the occasional courses with Nakazono Sensei and Noro Sensei.

My only dispute is with Graham's claim that Mr Muspratt was `a student of Noro Sensei` - that I would have remembered.

Over the years I have seen claims by so many people who were taught for several years by the dan grades from the Hut Dojo, they claim they were taught by a Japanese teacher who they had been on a seminar with at some point in their career.

I had a guy recently who became very abusive on my Kenshiro Abbe videos, he demanded to know why I had never mentioned his teacher who was a true pioneer of British Aikido.
I explained that the reason I never mentioned the guy was simple - I had never heard of him.
He countered with " My teacher was a special student and friend of Kenshiro Abbe for twenty years.
I suggested he inform his teacher that Abbe Sensei was only in the UK for nine years.
They walk amongst us.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Henry:

I hear you..... I had to "clean-up" a mess about two years ago with somebody misrepresenting the relationship with my teacher. To his credit, he addressed the issue immediately. He was faced with me posting the truth regarding certain claims and chose the better route. There is nothing quite like keeping exact records...... Keeps people in line who try and embellish. Graham's responses to me regarding some questions that I posited regarding his teacher's "relationship" with Tohei Sensei also "clarified" what things were and were not. Unfortunately, the dead cannot speak as much as what is written on the internet cannot be fleshed out unless it is done in person. We know where that seems to always lead with the poster..... And so it goes and so it goes....

Be Well,

Marc Abrams

graham christian
06-04-2012, 04:55 PM
Hi Marc

As you can see, I am still hanging on :-)

I would certainly not place Mike Muspratt in the same category as Mr Alexander and Jack Poole.

I spoke with my old friend Haydn Foster Sensei regarding Mr Muspratt shortly before Haydn passed away.
He had a good laugh at the memory of himself riding a pop pop moped all the way from Uxbridge in the London suburbs to Watford in Hertfordshire to teach at Mike Muspratt's dojo.
I actually remember him doing that. Haydn said that Mr Muspratt had visited the Hut Dojo occasionally, so I would not dispute that, I almost lived at the Hut dojo, I just don't remember him.

I don't doubt that Mr Muspratt attended the occasional courses with Nakazono Sensei and Noro Sensei.

My only dispute is with Graham's claim that Mr Muspratt was `a student of Noro Sensei` - that I would have remembered.

Over the years I have seen claims by so many people who were taught for several years by the dan grades from the Hut Dojo, they claim they were taught by a Japanese teacher who they had been on a seminar with at some point in their career.

I had a guy recently who became very abusive on my Kenshiro Abbe videos, he demanded to know why I had never mentioned his teacher who was a true pioneer of British Aikido.
I explained that the reason I never mentioned the guy was simple - I had never heard of him.
He countered with " My teacher was a special student and friend of Kenshiro Abbe for twenty years.
I suggested he inform his teacher that Abbe Sensei was only in the UK for nine years.
They walk amongst us.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Hooray!!!!
At last a little bit of fact and truth seeps out.

Aren't we human beings fascinating? You can say what you like about me but when someone tries their best to belittle your teacher or question even his existence it tends to bring a different feeling or response.

So At last we have here one recall of a teacher from those early years who knew him. Plus the fact that he trained at the Hut too. Little bits and pieces, no doubt more will come to light.

I agree Henry that the bit that don't add up in your mind is the Noro connection. No doubt that will be resolved as to how much and when sooner or later.

The number of people he mentioned to us in those days of my early training I don't even remember so as it happens if and when I find out I could be an even more extensive lineage up ha, ha.

Here's a bit more data for those interested, even the ones who are interested for what I call nefarious reasons.

There is a teacher who is at this moment a 5th Dan, (maybe 6th by now) who runs his own organization in spain. A friend and student of his has a dojo here in central london and has invited me down to meet and train when actually.

Now using a bit of Maths and logic I will give you the following data.

Said teacher was around in Henrys day and was taught by various teachers of whom Henry will no doubt know many.

Said teacher names his teachers from those days and thanks them all. From a British perspective it's probably quite an illustrious small list. He names them as Gregory Ford, Haydn Foster, Ken Williams, Kanatska San, Koichi Tohei, Wasil Kolesnikov, Ron James and Mike Muspratt.

Not as fellow practitioners but as Teachers.

No doubt some of these charachters were ones who Mike told us about but we had no significance or need or desire to remember such things as they were not our teacher.

Now this fellow was more to do with the welsh aikido set up I assume which would make sense and hence the summer school in wales with Tohei where he and Mike attended.

His name is Sensei Jones and he runs the Sho Shin Kan Dojo based in spain.

I have talked to him personally and he says Mike was a great teacher.

Why people are interested in these things I still find funny personally for I don't care too much who anyones teacher was. It's interesting to a small degree for me but that's all.

Peace.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
06-05-2012, 04:18 AM
His name is Sensei Jones and he runs the Sho Shin Kan Dojo based in spain.

I have talked to him personally and he says Mike was a great teacher.



Gareth Jones?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5Z2S7lnoo

sorokod
06-05-2012, 04:48 AM
Yes: http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm

Hellis
06-05-2012, 05:22 AM
I have enquired as to my teacher 'prior' to teaching me and met some interesting folk. One, who is also a high Dan grade told me if I get any grief regarding Mikes credentials to put them in touch with him and he'll soon sort them out.



Graham

Just curious, is Gareth Jones the high grade you refer to ?

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

phitruong
06-05-2012, 07:54 AM
i have a question. why do we need spiritual? as a descendant of Barb and one of the horde, i was just wondering the need for spiritual stuffs. we, the horde, tend to help folks who seek spiritual stuffs by sending them to the spiritual world. we have not been able to grasp the concept. it seemed a bit more complex than we could cope, since we have been accustomed to simple concepts, such as, foods, drinks, women, camels (not necessary in that order). so it's a puzzle to us about this spiritual thing. maybe, it's related to them white foreigners which we referred to as ghosts, who kept pestering the living, so every once in a while we would light some incense, fake money and a few fire crackers to send them in their way. perhaps if we sit on the mountain of our enemy's skulls and have a wild party, we might be able to grasp this spiritual concept. we have also thought that a few dozen of donuts and gallons of black bitter coffee would do it too? :D

Garth
06-05-2012, 09:34 AM
i have a question. why do we need spiritual? as a descendant of Barb and one of the horde, i was just wondering the need for spiritual stuffs. we, the horde, tend to help folks who seek spiritual stuffs by sending them to the spiritual world. we have not been able to grasp the concept. it seemed a bit more complex than we could cope, since we have been accustomed to simple concepts, such as, foods, drinks, women, camels (not necessary in that order). so it's a puzzle to us about this spiritual thing. maybe, it's related to them white foreigners which we referred to as ghosts, who kept pestering the living, so every once in a while we would light some incense, fake money and a few fire crackers to send them in their way. perhaps if we sit on the mountain of our enemy's skulls and have a wild party, we might be able to grasp this spiritual concept. we have also thought that a few dozen of donuts and gallons of black bitter coffee would do it too? :D

Phi,
Just want u to know that post is going down in my top ten list. I believe BTW that i was more a descendant of the legions , as in Roman. Not all of us are pesky ghosts.
Conan said it best. The meaning of life , " to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to hear the lamentation of the women"
Quite a SPIRITual contemplation

Reveling in reality
Greg

David Orange
06-05-2012, 09:56 AM
Conan said it best. The meaning of life , " to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to hear the lamentation of the women"

But Leno said, "Ehh! As long as I host The Tonight Show, I don't care."

Phi...did you see the comment someone made about you on the zombie thread?

Never mind. I see that you did!

David

MM
06-05-2012, 11:30 AM
I can say that no one is ever under any delusions that my approach is anything to do with any organizational Aikido.

Peace.G.

For the faint of heart, this is all in my opinion.

I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.

As a blatant personal comparison, Mary Eastland and I don't see eye to eye. I've seen her videos on her website and she's doing aikido. I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye. I have never thought that she isn't doing aikido (Modern Aikido to me). It has value, it has the form, the function, and can be recognized as aikido (Modern Aikido). We have our disagreements as to the foundational aspects of aikido as a whole, but IMO, she's still doing aikido.

You, on the other hand and from where I'm standing, are not. I fail to see any form, function, or recognizability in the videos you have posted. There is a mimicry of some small portion of certain movements, but generally, no, I really don't see any aikido to it. Had you created your own art and stated that your creation was in a small way influenced by aikido ... that I could see.

Maybe if I ever make it over there, you can show me more of your training. As with everything I post, the standard caveat is that I've been known to be wrong. Maybe there's a whole lot more than what you've shown so far ... Until then, I have to go by what you've written and what you've shown, neither of which leads me to any conclusion that what you're doing is aikido.

Mark

Gary David
06-05-2012, 11:53 AM
I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye........................................
Mark

Actual Mark I think there are any number of versions of Aikido.....those I see are:


Pre War (alot of the old guys)
Immediate Post War period (a few of the old guys)
Modern Aikido
Post Modern Aikido
Impressionist Aikido
Post Impressionist Aikido
Some"thing" else all together (balloons without air)


As for Phi.........are you talking Shaka Khan or the other one?

Gary

sorokod
06-05-2012, 12:59 PM
I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.


Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.

DH
06-05-2012, 01:14 PM
Mark Murray wrote:
I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.
I thought the same thing watching Noro as I did watching certain other people...What does this have to do with budo or Aikido? Only later did I find out that Noro got that as well and knew well that he should call it something different, so he changed the name. Hence no comments. It's clean.

Somewhere or another, Budo needs to be tested as a budo...
No matter what they say
No matter how they defend it.
No matter their arguments to the contrary
It must be martially effective or it isn't a bu-do...its just a-do.
It's always been that way, and always will be.
Dan

Hellis
06-05-2012, 01:29 PM
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.

I would agree with this. If I recall correctly, Noro Sensei was involved in a car accident, he had difficulty for some time getting back to Aikido. He found he could practice the soft graceful flowing movements which he name Kinomichi. He doesn't claim to teach Aikido anymore.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Chris Parkerson
06-05-2012, 01:31 PM
Actual Mark I think there are any number of versions of Aikido.....those I see are:


Pre War (alot of the old guys)
Immediate Post War period (a few of the old guys)
Modern Aikido
Post Modern Aikido
Impressionist Aikido
Post Impressionist Aikido
Some"thing" else all together (balloons without air)


As for Phi.........are you talking Shaka Khan or the other one?

Gary

How about Cubist Aikido???
Like Picasso and Braque. The traditional perspective is seen by combining many perspectives and the planes of the composition are broken up and fused into interlocking facets thereby fragmenting and disintegrating the image....

Just sayin'

Chris

Jim Sorrentino
06-05-2012, 01:35 PM
Hi David,

Sorry for replying to your apparently rhetorical question so much later in this thread.But show me one "spiritual" person, with pathetic physical abilities who gained the respect of OSensei.
In all seriousness, what about Onisaburo Deguchi?

Jim

David Orange
06-05-2012, 02:01 PM
Hi David,

Sorry for replying to your apparently rhetorical question so much later in this thread.
In all seriousness, what about Onisaburo Deguchi?

Jim

Good point.

I meant only respecting them as budoka.

I'm sure he respected every individual he met--everyone in the world--as divine creatures.

But he would not have wanted just anyone claiming to teach his art and I think that includes Deguchi, really.

Good point, though.

David

graham christian
06-05-2012, 03:25 PM
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.

Ha,ha. Decency? For such academically gifted folk you sure seem to me to read things as you prefer. I suggest you read up on kinomichi along with with it's philosophy and heritage.

Also. it's much like Ki Aikido. Inoue was almost a co founder of Aikido and what he did was nearer Aikido than most 'Aikido' I see. So enjoy your word games, it's all good.

At least Tohei had the decency to call it Shin shin toitsu ha, ha.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-05-2012, 03:38 PM
For the faint of heart, this is all in my opinion.

I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.

As a blatant personal comparison, Mary Eastland and I don't see eye to eye. I've seen her videos on her website and she's doing aikido. I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye. I have never thought that she isn't doing aikido (Modern Aikido to me). It has value, it has the form, the function, and can be recognized as aikido (Modern Aikido). We have our disagreements as to the foundational aspects of aikido as a whole, but IMO, she's still doing aikido.

You, on the other hand and from where I'm standing, are not. I fail to see any form, function, or recognizability in the videos you have posted. There is a mimicry of some small portion of certain movements, but generally, no, I really don't see any aikido to it. Had you created your own art and stated that your creation was in a small way influenced by aikido ... that I could see.

Maybe if I ever make it over there, you can show me more of your training. As with everything I post, the standard caveat is that I've been known to be wrong. Maybe there's a whole lot more than what you've shown so far ... Until then, I have to go by what you've written and what you've shown, neither of which leads me to any conclusion that what you're doing is aikido.

Mark

For your heart let me reply.

I consider many things about many Aikido but hold my tongue. It's a budo thing.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-05-2012, 04:00 PM
Talking of spiritual I remember a very short lady coming to watch once. She was very spiritual. I had helped her husband and she wanted to see what this Aikido was about. She watched and loved it. Now this was back in the watford days.

She said it was fascinating and hearing our explanations understood a lot just by watching. As a test (and a validation) later me and the teacher asked her if she wanted to do something she had seen. She said yes she'd love to.

We called over two big guys, told her to stand there as she had seen, all five feet nothing of her, and asked the guys to lift her up. Grab her wrists, one guy each side, and lift her up. They couldn't budge her.

She had never done any martial art. Everyone there was amazed for many of them couldn't do it.

But there again it takes 20 years or special technique with short unseen movements or I/p to do these things..or, or or......

Ha, ha. Just sayin....

Peace G.

graham christian
06-05-2012, 04:02 PM
For the faint of heart, this is all in my opinion.

I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.

As a blatant personal comparison, Mary Eastland and I don't see eye to eye. I've seen her videos on her website and she's doing aikido. I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye. I have never thought that she isn't doing aikido (Modern Aikido to me). It has value, it has the form, the function, and can be recognized as aikido (Modern Aikido). We have our disagreements as to the foundational aspects of aikido as a whole, but IMO, she's still doing aikido.

You, on the other hand and from where I'm standing, are not. I fail to see any form, function, or recognizability in the videos you have posted. There is a mimicry of some small portion of certain movements, but generally, no, I really don't see any aikido to it. Had you created your own art and stated that your creation was in a small way influenced by aikido ... that I could see.

Maybe if I ever make it over there, you can show me more of your training. As with everything I post, the standard caveat is that I've been known to be wrong. Maybe there's a whole lot more than what you've shown so far ... Until then, I have to go by what you've written and what you've shown, neither of which leads me to any conclusion that what you're doing is aikido.

Mark

Until then......

Peace.G.

Gary David
06-05-2012, 09:13 PM
Until then......

Peace.G.

Graham
You are the 'Artful Dodger'........

Gary

hughrbeyer
06-05-2012, 09:56 PM
At least Tohei had the decency to call it Shin shin toitsu ha, ha.

Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.

David Orange
06-05-2012, 10:21 PM
Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.

Mochizuki Sensei promoted me to nidan in 1990, when I had 15 years of aikido, having opened the first yoseikan budo dojo in North America, etc.

About that time, I became his uchi deshi. I lived with him twenty-one months and continued to practice at his dojo until 1995. I declined the opportunity to test for higher rank, but when I came back to the US, I "promoted" myself to a rank of my own making: "zero degree". It's a reference to Zen, tao, etc. It also means to "zero in" on oneself.

Not much money in promoting your students to "zero degree!" Let me tell you!

David

Chris Li
06-05-2012, 10:45 PM
Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.

Hmm...one word that never came to mind when I thought of Koichi Tohei was humility. :D

Best,

Chris

David Orange
06-06-2012, 12:04 AM
Hmm...one word that never came to mind when I thought of Koichi Tohei was humility. :D

He was probably humble with Kisshomaru, though.

I saw the photo on your blog where Ueshiba is arriving in Honolulu, with Tohei off to his right, with a big smile that looks as plastic as window sushi!

David

graham christian
06-06-2012, 06:06 AM
Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.

The ha, ha, signifies how every person who makes their own way with a new name be it tomiki or whatever is doing so out of respect and humility. To show it is different.

The name tells you it is different in some way. It's for you to ask and find out their particular methods and philosophy and way. They have done their bit.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-06-2012, 06:12 AM
Graham
You are the 'Artful Dodger'........

Gary

Ha, ha. I'll take that as a compliment. I need to be with some, dodging bullets here and there.

Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know.

They could also stick to the the topic and stop dodging about and disrespecting the rules of the forum.

Lots of artful dodgers methinks.

Peace.G.

DH
06-06-2012, 06:29 AM
Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know.
Peace.G.
Really?
I am in London twice a year and I have an open mind. I would like to do that. I'll buy dinner.
Dan

graham christian
06-06-2012, 06:36 AM
Back to topic.
There is a spiritual approach which many will in the future and many in the past took. Tohei studied shin shin toitsu and it led him to his way. Way before the split. It led him to understand what Ueshiba was teaching number one.

Inoue was very spiritual in his approach and his way which he wouldn't call Aikido yet it was more Aikido than much of what followed by many.

The fact that these 'modern' folk can watch Inoue for example and laugh and joke and not understand what he is doing just shows me how much they don't know rather than how much they do.

The usual thing is to say it's not martial, ha, ha. Spiritual ways and blending ways are not martial or budo or bu even. To me that's the biggest joke around.

In it's purpose and even name Aikido means not much different to yoga and many have and will even describe it as a form of such in order to get a point across. The difference is the bu or budo aspect and that about sums it up.

Now many are used to the physical approach. Some are now getting used to the I/P approach but it seems to me not too keen on showing that via film. I wonder why? I think I know why.

Then there is the spiritual approach which not many on here by the looks of it seem to have much reality on.

Now here is the major difference for me. A person doing the physical approach can get very very good and can reach the highest Dan Ranking and can be an excellent Aikidoka. Admirable. To me that is admirable.

The same goes for if someone does the same complete with I/p knowledge. Admirable.

Nothing is admirable to the negative mind except destructive things. So they enjoy being negative and thus admire themselves. Very amusing.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-06-2012, 06:48 AM
Really?
I am in London twice a year and I have an open mind. I would like to do that. I'll buy dinner.
Dan

Really??? What would you like to learn?

Peace.G.

Tengu859
06-06-2012, 07:20 AM
Really??? What would you like to learn?

Peace.G.

Maybe both can learn something, maybe... ;0) I would love to hear about it. I think it may change things. Take care.

"Fear is the mind killer..."FH

CW

phitruong
06-06-2012, 07:31 AM
Really??? What would you like to learn?

Peace.G.

you know, in the old days in asia, actually it still is, that when a person comes to your school and said "please teach me your stuffs", it's a subtle way of challenging. it's one of those passive-aggressive thing. we asian are very polite about stuffs. one minute, very polite, and the next minute, your hot dog disappeared along with slaw, onion, ketchup and other stuffs. :)

hughrbeyer
06-06-2012, 08:38 AM
Yeah, humble isn't a word I associate with Tohei either. Graham's post just made me think about the interesting mix of pride, humility, and political calculation that went into naming his new branch of the art. Maybe Graham needs more pride and more humility.

David, I want to know how you turn down your Sensei when he tells you it's time to test. Also, why.

sorokod
06-06-2012, 08:40 AM
There is a teacher who is at this moment a 5th Dan, (maybe 6th by now) who runs his own organization in spain. A friend and student of his has a dojo here in central london and has invited me down to meet and train when actually.
Now using a bit of Maths and logic I will give you the following data.
Said teacher was around in Henrys day and was taught by various teachers of whom Henry will no doubt know many.
Said teacher names his teachers from those days and thanks them all. From a British perspective it's probably quite an illustrious small list. He names them as Gregory Ford, Haydn Foster, Ken Williams, Kanatska San, Koichi Tohei, Wasil Kolesnikov, Ron James and Mike Muspratt.
Not as fellow practitioners but as Teachers.
No doubt some of these charachters were ones who Mike told us about but we had no significance or need or desire to remember such things as they were not our teacher.
Now this fellow was more to do with the welsh aikido set up I assume which would make sense and hence the summer school in wales with Tohei where he and Mike attended.
His name is Sensei Jones and he runs the Sho Shin Kan Dojo based in spain.
I have talked to him personally and he says Mike was a great teacher.


In the page titled: "Aikido Senseis who have contributed to the training of Sensei Jones. Marbella Dojo, Spain." (here: http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm) Mr. Gareth N. Jones has only this to say about Mike Muspratt:


Watford Dojo.
Your converted garage was a great place to practice and sleep. I've never drunk tequila since. Party on!!


According to Aikiweb records (http://www.aikiweb.com/dojo/spain/mijas_costa/sho_shin_kan) Gareth N. Jones is affiliated with Kai Shin Kai (http://www.kaishinkai.co.uk/joomla/) but the dojo is not listed on it's website.

Marc Abrams
06-06-2012, 09:14 AM
I am quite surprised that Jun has not closed this thread down. This thread, like almost all started by the original poster, has devolved to it's current level of asking the poster to simply establish some verifiable credentials to back up claims, statements, understandings, etc., that run counter to established facts, positions taken by people who have established credentials and verifiable skills, best-thought-out positions derived from competent research in those areas, etc..

In the mental health field, we have this "understanding" of how people tend to project their own inner lives onto the world around them, which is then reflected back to them. I think that if we can all step back and look at this consistent pattern with the original poster, we should all consider replicating the requests posted throughout zoos in the world "Don't feed the animals."

Marc Abrams

David Orange
06-06-2012, 09:19 AM
Yeah, humble isn't a word I associate with Tohei either. Graham's post just made me think about the interesting mix of pride, humility, and political calculation that went into naming his new branch of the art. Maybe Graham needs more pride and more humility.

David, I want to know how you turn down your Sensei when he tells you it's time to test. Also, why.

Strange story, Hugh.

I'll try to PM you about that later today.

Thanks.

David

Gary David
06-06-2012, 09:25 AM
you know, in the old days in asia, actually it still is, that when a person comes to your school and said "please teach me your stuffs", it's a subtle way of challenging. it's one of those passive-aggressive thing. we asian are very polite about stuffs. one minute, very polite, and the next minute, your hot dog disappeared along with slaw, onion, ketchup and other stuffs. :)

Phi
Talking about slaw...and my question to you about Shaka Khan or the other one......I don't think folks realize how close we came to having Mongolian BBQ as the general drive thru takeout rather than McDonald's.....

Gary

Kevin Leavitt
06-06-2012, 09:34 AM
I'm with Marc on this one. reading through the post. If you guys have concluded that Graham is not inline with you, what you do, nor do you have anything in common or value together...then why do you continue the discussion?

It is fun watching the train wreck develop. and yes, like Marc, I wonder why the thread is still open.

sorokod
06-06-2012, 09:36 AM
I am quite surprised that Jun has not closed this thread down. This thread, like almost all started by the original poster, has devolved to it's current level of asking the poster to simply establish some verifiable credentials to back up claims, statements, understandings, etc., that run counter to established facts, positions taken by people who have established credentials and verifiable skills, best-thought-out positions derived from competent research in those areas, etc..


If it makes sense to close the thread down now, what would be the purpose of allowing it in the first place?

phitruong
06-06-2012, 09:40 AM
Phi
Talking about slaw...and my question to you about Shaka Khan or the other one......I don't think folks realize how close we came to having Mongolian BBQ as the general drive thru takeout rather than McDonald's.....

Gary

did i not mention somewhere that the main reason the horde went on the BBQ drive across the plain was to get away from the women folks at home?

Gary David
06-06-2012, 09:54 AM
did i not mention somewhere that the main reason the horde went on the BBQ drive across the plain was to get away from the women folks at home?

You know.....except for a few of the leaders falling death (from food poisoning I guess) at opportune times.....they would have reached the Atlantic ........

Gary

Kevin Leavitt
06-06-2012, 09:56 AM
If it makes sense to close the thread down now, what would be the purpose of allowing it in the first place?

well I think at first it has/had some merit as it allowed people to discuss the spiritual aspects and their place in aikido. However, the conversation has gone from that to "we don't respect you cause you are smoking crack and have no qualifications". I think once we enter that realm or the realm of bullshido (which I like) that attempts to expose or discredit someone...well then we probably need to make that conclusion ourselves and simply walk away from the conversation.

Really, after you reach that conclusion in your own mind...what is the point?

I am on a Ranger Association website and frankly I am getting tired since all the old Rangers want to talk about is guys that are posers and "stolen valor" and why women shouldn't be allowed in Ranger School.

I am good with that to a certain extent, but once that comes your sole focus in life...I begin to question sanity.

I am all about talking about Valor, Budo, and excellence and doing good. you know, the positive things. Some negative is okay too.

But after a while, you gotta move on I think. Cut your losses and move on.

I mean really no one is going to steal my valor or dilute MY aikido, or affect me really in any way by doing whatever they do. I think the stupidity of their actions and ignorance eventually gets displayed and demonstrated over time.

Anyway, I think that we really need to reconsider our own perspectives and attachments if this is all we can focus on.

Kevin Leavitt
06-06-2012, 09:57 AM
Oh...and yeah...if Phi is allowed to post then yeah...you got to wonder what is really going on here anyway.

graham christian
06-06-2012, 10:12 AM
you know, in the old days in asia, actually it still is, that when a person comes to your school and said "please teach me your stuffs", it's a subtle way of challenging. it's one of those passive-aggressive thing. we asian are very polite about stuffs. one minute, very polite, and the next minute, your hot dog disappeared along with slaw, onion, ketchup and other stuffs. :)

Very true. Many have asked in the past and been very polite. Usually from the view of' I'll show him that spiritual stuffs is nonsense' ha, ha.

You learn to spot them a mile off and keep your hot dog.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-06-2012, 10:20 AM
did i not mention somewhere that the main reason the horde went on the BBQ drive across the plain was to get away from the women folks at home?

And the only reason they went so far is that the women were still chasing them?

My wife came through and my slaw is gone!

:D

David

Hellis
06-06-2012, 10:32 AM
Personally I don't believe anyone should ask for a thread to be closed because they don't like it, or the poster. If I have no interest in a thread, I simply ignore it.

I think the message from Mark Murry number 330 said much of what I was thinking.

Although Graham has said something to the effect he is doing his own thing. I also had concerns that Graham may claim that what he is doing in the name of Aikido originated from the `Hut Dojo` and Noro Sensei. As I posted earlier, Mr Muspratt may have attended a course with Noro Sensei and may have visited the Hut Dojo on a couple of occasions does not qualify him as a student of either.
In my earlier post I should have added that Haydn Foster Sensei only made two or three journeys to Watford on his pop pop moped which he described as a `killer`. I don't remember his saying the dojo was a garage :-)
I also think it is unfair to give Mr Muspratt grief when it is Graham who is making the claims in his name.

Henry Ellis
Co-auuthor `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

DH
06-06-2012, 10:46 AM
Really??? What would you like to learn?

Peace.G.
As I have told you before some of your writing interested me from way back. Honestly I didn't see it in your movements, but hands on is more definitive and clear. I would like to see how you interpreted the spiritual aspects into your aikido-particularly where it involves IP or not. I have some of my own thoughts on it- and can demonstrate it clearly- that I rarely discuss on the net though.
Secondly, from much experience... I have seen people form friendships or at least establish clarity, once they meet. It tends to get rid of the wierd interactions you see on the net. Personal meet ups are the best way to get to know people.
Dan

Marc Abrams
06-06-2012, 10:47 AM
Personally I don't believe anyone should ask for a thread to be closed because they don't like it, or the poster. If I have no interest in a thread, I simply ignore it.

I think the message from Mark Murry number 330 said much of what I was thinking.

Although Graham has said something to the effect he is doing his own thing. I also had concerns that Graham may claim that what he is doing in the name of Aikido originated from the `Hut Dojo` and Noro Sensei. As I posted earlier, Mr Muspratt may have attended a course with Noro Sensei and may have visited the Hut Dojo on a couple of occasions does not qualify him as a student of either.
In my earlier post I should have added that Haydn Foster Sensei only made two or three journeys to Watford on his pop pop moped which he described as a `killer`. I don't remember his saying the dojo was a garage :-)
I also think it is unfair to give Mr Muspratt grief when it is Graham who is making the claims in his name.

Henry Ellis
Co-auuthor `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Henry:

To me, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not the thread is liked or not. I think that the larger issue is that a thread runs it's course when the majority of the posts veer off topic and fall-back to irrelevant issues (as it relates to the thread). I too agree with Mark Murray. Then again, his post was not about the topic, but about the poster, which once again begs the question as to why the thread should remain open when it always devolves back to the old broken record.

You are absolutely correct in having the focus squarely on Graham and not on his teacher. We have absolutely no idea as to what Mr. Muspratt would say, in regards to his own history, abilities and in regards to his students. We are simply left with Graham being Graham. This ends up being a continuous pattern of Graham making substantially unsupported claims in regards to a variety of topics. When confronted, he veers away, avoids, changes topics, says people don't understand, says you have to meet him and won't meet certain people, etc..... When this frequently occurring "train wreck" occurs, the thread should simply be closed. I would add that Phi's contributions ALWAYS add an element of humor to the ongoing "Greek tragedy".

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Lorel Latorilla
06-06-2012, 10:51 AM
Graham, I am really interested in the truth you are presenting here. People here might say you have no qualfications and this and that, but I am willing to be surprised and want to know what you have. Cann you do seminars in Japan? Or one day, if I ever go to England for grad school i would love to meet you and learn from you.

graham christian
06-06-2012, 11:01 AM
Graham, I am really interested in the truth you are presenting here. People here might say you have no qualfications and this and that, but I am willing to be surprised and want to know what you have. Cann you do seminars in Japan? Or one day, if I ever go to England for grad school i would love to meet you and learn from you.

Lorel.
It is a shame you think I veer away etc. I am open with my views and others say and do whatever they do with them.

No I do not see me coming to Japan or doing any seminars.

Yes, if ever you are over here you would be most welcome.

Peace.G.

Lorel Latorilla
06-06-2012, 11:14 AM
Lorel.
It is a shame you think I veer away etc. I am open with my views and others say and do whatever they do with them.

No I do not see me coming to Japan or doing any seminars.

Yes, if ever you are over here you would be most welcome.

Peace.G.

Veer away? Read my post carefully Graham. I only said I am interested in whatever truth about martial arts/life that you have to share.

graham christian
06-06-2012, 11:34 AM
Veer away? Read my post carefully Graham. I only said I am interested in whatever truth about martial arts/life that you have to share.

Humble apologies. Too busy reading another's post. My mistake. I now owe you especially if and when we meet.

Peace.G.

Hellis
06-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Henry:

To me, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not the thread is liked or not. I think that the larger issue is that a thread runs it's course when the majority of the posts veer off topic and fall-back to irrelevant issues (as it relates to the thread). I too agree with Mark Murray. Then again, his post was not about the topic, but about the poster, which once again begs the question as to why the thread should remain open when it always devolves back to the old broken record.


Marc

I have to agree with you there.

Henry Ellis
Co-auuthor `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Kevin Leavitt
06-06-2012, 02:33 PM
Henry, just pulled up Jason McCoy's website to get his email so I could coordinate something. Low and behold there was a picture of you and Jason having a beer. I have had the pleasure of training with Jason and being his friend for the past year. He is leaving for Okinawa this week.

Hellis
06-06-2012, 02:45 PM
Henry, just pulled up Jason McCoy's website to get his email so I could coordinate something. Low and behold there was a picture of you and Jason having a beer. I have had the pleasure of training with Jason and being his friend for the past year. He is leaving for Okinawa this week.

Kevin

Was this photo at the Doshu presentation ? - can you give me the link please.
Are you with the USAF in Germany ? I taught a lot of German Luftwaffe and American guys at Holloman AFB in New Mexico - If by chance you meet any, please ask them to email me.

Regards

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Kevin Leavitt
06-06-2012, 03:43 PM
http://aikidoforlife.com/

It was one of the photos on his slide how on his home page. Says it was taken in Cardiff in 2010.

Kevin Leavitt
06-06-2012, 03:45 PM
I'm Army in Germany. I'll certainly pass along if I run into anyone. I spend most of my time here in combatives and BJJ these days so don't run into too many Aikido people around here. I do get out occasionally though.

Hellis
06-06-2012, 04:03 PM
http://aikidoforlife.com/

It was one of the photos on his slide how on his home page. Says it was taken in Cardiff in 2010.

Kevin

Thank you for the link. The photo was taken after the evening meal and the Doshu presentations to Haydn Foster - Derek Eastman and myself - I am the handsome one on the right.

I did like the photo of the practice on White Sands - when I was in NM we would often go there to train.

Please pass on my kind regards to Jason.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Kevin Leavitt
06-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Will do, I am having dinner with him Friday night.

sakumeikan
06-06-2012, 05:38 PM
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.

Hi David,
Regarding Noro Sensei , prior to his car accident he was a tremendous aikidoka.I saw him in Glasgow along with Tamura Sensei.He was brilliant.Last time I met him was at San Diego Aikikai where he visited Chiba Sensei.He is a very pleasant man. His Ki no Michi is very elegant.His students movements are smooth , graceful and dance like.Check out some of Noro Senseis work prior to the accident, it is amazing.He reminds me of a Sufi/Dervish dancer, big circular movements , highlighted by his white hakama.Cheers, Joe

sorokod
06-06-2012, 05:55 PM
This is very nice and elegant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hOfWVn0Zu0

Hellis
06-06-2012, 06:09 PM
This 1960s video with Noro Sensei on the beach is more like the man I remember. The techniques get better towards the end of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv0FxVxVETU&feature=related

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

sorokod
06-06-2012, 06:42 PM
I didn't realise he spent time in Iwama and I think it shows.

Tom Verhoeven
06-06-2012, 07:50 PM
More about "dismissing"...

If you've read the "Profiles of the Founder (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-04-29/morihei-ueshiba-profiles-of-the-founder)" post you'll see my basic thinking on this point:

That's not the same, IMO, as "dismissing" all of Ueshiba's students.

Best,

Chris

I had not read or seen this post before. It does clarify your position and basic thinking on the subject.

And I see more clearly how and why you and I seem to be clashing.

And you are correct, in your post "profiles of the founder" it comes across as a point of discussion whether the students are still in line with the teachings of the founder or drifting away.
But that is not always how you put it in response to an entry by me (or for that matter in responses to others).

Tom

graham christian
06-06-2012, 09:11 PM
As I have told you before some of your writing interested me from way back. Honestly I didn't see it in your movements, but hands on is more definitive and clear. I would like to see how you interpreted the spiritual aspects into your aikido-particularly where it involves IP or not. I have some of my own thoughts on it- and can demonstrate it clearly- that I rarely discuss on the net though.
Secondly, from much experience... I have seen people form friendships or at least establish clarity, once they meet. It tends to get rid of the wierd interactions you see on the net. Personal meet ups are the best way to get to know people.
Dan

Hi Dan.
Don't agree 5 mins hands on is worth anything. Don't agree friendships come from meeting up either. Friendships come from sharing something in common, similar views.

You seem quite certain and clear and able on your route already and have made that clear to me as I am on mine. So there seems no reason for us two to meet.

News to me your interested in the spiritual and my approach particularly. Maybe you can explain via p/m.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-06-2012, 09:22 PM
Hi Dan.
Don't agree 5 mins hands on is worth anything. Don't agree friendships come from meeting up either. Friendships come from sharing something in common, similar views.

You seem quite certain and clear and able on your route already and have made that clear to me as I am on mine. So there seems no reason for us two to meet.

News to me your interested in the spiritual and my approach particularly. Maybe you can explain via p/m.

Peace.G.

Hehhhhh!

I thought you were about to step up, Graham! He's coming to you and buying dinner!

I remember Dan's saying he found your writings very interesting a long time ago.

Dan's a good guy, Graham. I went all the way up the East Coast to see him. And here he is coming to your town and you won't meet him?

Well, if you wouldn't meet Shioda....

But you did say earlier that it was necessary to step up. What happened?

David

graham christian
06-06-2012, 09:34 PM
Don't think you have any similar reality to me as to what stepping up to the plate means.

When you can step up to my plate, we'll see eye to eye. These modern stepping up to the plate attitude is so fake.

Peace G.

Tom Verhoeven
06-06-2012, 10:04 PM
Hello Tom
I have enjoyed our exchange so far. Thank you.

Chris has never pressed that I am the only one, he is in fact hosting and training with several. On the other hand Chris has some rather unique and extensive experience training with an incredible list of Japanese Shihan.
I must say that I for one would be delighted to feel any Japanese shihan who's got it in any full measure and teaches it. I've ever felt it, seen it or read anything in writing. I think its actually a bogus claim. and I am DYING to be proven wrong. That meaning, I truly want to be wrong and get to discuss it, watch them move, see them teach, and feel their students with power.

All that said. I would add that of all the teachers from all over the world I have taught..none... meaning -not one- has been able to tell me of a single teacher who has it and is teaching it.
You keep talking of a logical argument. Okay. These men who have spent decades training with a host of Japanese Shihan have now felt me and others. They are now equipped to make comparisons that you are not. And they agree with Chris.
Why?

Who do you know that you would say qualifies?
Who are their students who have power?
Where can I meet them?
Thank you that would be a great help.
And thanks for not letting things turn ugly.
Dan

Hello Dan,
Good to hear from you.

Please keep in mind that the argument of logical reasoning has everything to do with the way a statement is presented and has as such nothing to do with the question whether something is true or not or even if we agree or not.

I agree that I cannot make any comparison between you and other teachers. But you and your students have not met me or many of my teachers. Therefore you cannot make a comparison either or come to the conclusion that none of the teachers that I have trained with do not have that power that you are talking about.

Which brings me to another point; there does not seem to be one clear definition of Inner Power. So how do we know that we are really talking about the same thing? I could illustrate this by naming the Aikido shihan that taught me, like Tamura sensei, but,and please correct me if I am wrong, your premise seems to be that none of the shihan really received instruction by the founder. That leaves every shihan a priori outside the building, does it not? So it does not matter who I name.

I could also try to illustrate this with a T'ai chi chuan teacher that I used to train with. He was excellent in what he did. Or my experiences with Tai ki ken, a mixture of gentle movements and powerful techniques. But is it the same Inner Power that you are talking about?

I think we might be on the same track in more then one way. I too feel that for a long time now something has been lacking in the teaching of Aikido. The reason for this may partially have to do with O Sensei's explanations. There were those that did not understand his words or did not have the patience for it. But there were also those who did understand! Or who came to an understanding in later life.

The other problem is that we tend to see Aikido as a fighting skill. And we have a very modern western approach to it; it has to be measured to prove that it is correct. I call that the hidden contest in Aikido (as Aikido holds no contests). People find ways on the mat to compete or they find a forum like this one to compete, to measure, to judge,...
The transmitted words of the founder show that he was teaching something that had nothing to do with competing with one another, really had nothing to do with fighting even.
It might very well be that someone has a deep understanding of the teachings of the founders and yet does not practice martial arts. And that is something that you cannot "feel" by doing a technique.

Where we also might differ in opinion is that I feel that the Aikido of Aikikai is not wrong, but rather incomplete. In my opinion your lessons may be more interesting for those who already have an understanding of the kihon waza of Aikido. How would they otherwise see what is making Aikikai Aikido incomplete?

To end with a question. Do you feel that your teachings represents the teachings of the founder of Aikido?
Chris mentioned in his blog the problem of drift.
In another post on the same blog he is talking about the gogyo and how this was part of the teachings of the founder. But I saw on youtube the way you explained 5 ways to approach a technique and noticed that you did not use the gogyo, but the godai.
Would you call that creativity or drift?

Thanks for being open to my questions and remarks.

Best wishes,
Tom

.

Ernesto Lemke
06-07-2012, 02:37 AM
In another post on the same blog he is talking about the gogyo and how this was part of the teachings of the founder. But I saw on youtube the way you explained 5 ways to approach a technique and noticed that you did not use the gogyo, but the godai.

Hello Tom,

I'm a little confused about the above statement. It seems to imply there is a youtube video of Dan. If so, could you provide us with the link? Thank you.
Best,

Ernesto

MM
06-07-2012, 07:31 AM
The other problem is that we tend to see Aikido as a fighting skill. And we have a very modern western approach to it; it has to be measured to prove that it is correct. I call that the hidden contest in Aikido (as Aikido holds no contests). People find ways on the mat to compete or they find a forum like this one to compete, to measure, to judge,...
The transmitted words of the founder show that he was teaching something that had nothing to do with competing with one another, really had nothing to do with fighting even.


I would suggest that you do a bit more research into what Morihei Ueshiba thought about "competition". I think you will be surprised at what he really meant. Peter Goldsbury touched on that subject in a post here on Aikiweb ... or maybe it was in one of his TIE articles. From what I remember, to suggest that Ueshiba discounted all competition is wrong. If I recall correctly, Ueshiba discounted the kind of sport competition where there is an actual winner and loser. For example, Olympic Judo. I do not believe Ueshiba discounted peer competition within a dojo to make oneself better. I'm sure there are other definitions of competition that Ueshiba allowed and some that he did not.


It might very well be that someone has a deep understanding of the teachings of the founders and yet does not practice martial arts. And that is something that you cannot "feel" by doing a technique.

Thanks for being open to my questions and remarks.

Best wishes,
Tom



I would disagree with this for the aiki arts. If we look at a brief glimpse of Ueshiba:

1. Tenryu could not budge him, push him over, move him, or get the better of Ueshiba because ... Ueshiba knew the secret of aiki. No mention of spirituality.

2. Shioda was tested and passed without mention of spirituality. It was entirely martial.

3. Ueshiba, himself, stated that aiki was not a religion but that aiki made religion better.

4. Ueshiba, himself, stated that one did not have to follow in his spiritual footsteps. He not only allowed but encouraged others to keep to their own spiritual path.

5. Horikawa and Sagawa were Ueshiba's peers and martially, they all did similar things. This martial skill can be directly traced back to Takeda and aiki. Aiki, the martial body changing method. No spirituality.

6. Ueshiba, himself, stated that he is not a religious man, but a man of budo.

7. Nearly every single martial artist who came into contact with Ueshiba, Horikawa, Sagawa, Takeda, all knew (not thought, not believed, did not quibble) that they had encountered something beyond (some said incomprehensible) all their 10, 20, 30 years of training in countless other martial arts including kendo, judo, jujutsu, karate, sumo, boxing. These highly skiled, experienced martial artists *heard* about the aiki greats, but it wasn't until they actually, physically experienced training with them did they find out how utterly wrong their opinions were. What was it that Ueshiba said of Takeda ... He opened my eyes to true budo.

So, when talking about the aiki arts ... no amount of "deep understanding" can be complete without the martial context. It Has To Be Felt. IHTBF. Not technique. Never technique. But, that aspect of the aiki arts ... which is "aiki" ... the aiki as handed down by Takeda must be there or there really is no "deep understanding".

100 years of studying Omoto kyo is not aikido. 100 years of being a devout christian is not aikido. 100 years of being Buddha is not aikido. While 100 years of spirituality may be its own reward, it should never be confused as synonymous with aikido. No aiki ... no aikido. Ueshiba said pick your religion, pick your spirituality, but this is budo, the way of aiki. And, if you read Chris Li's blogs, you begin to understand that Ueshiba talked incessantly about old, known martial training methods, sayings, ideas, etc. He just hid them inside his spiritual ideology. Martial training methods that have a spiritual component hidden inside spiritual ideology. Aiki completes religion/spirituality. And that is where one will find the deeper understanding.

All IMO anyway,
Mark

graham christian
06-07-2012, 08:32 AM
Spiritual......I/P.......

I would say that the origins of I/P are no doubt spiritual. Unfortunately the use was a misuse and merely used for tricks within the limited framework of combat. Thus it would lead to having an edge. Thus it would lead to secrecy and secret techniques. Alas such is the way of human behaviour.

Spiritual is and always will be the source. To understand Ueshiba and what he did for me is very hard yet very simple. It's summed up in one word and that is not kojiki, it is Kannagara.

Understand the true concept of that and you will understand a lot of what Ueshiba said and meant.

Peace.G.

C. David Henderson
06-07-2012, 10:20 AM
Spiritual......I/P.......

I would say that the origins of I/P are no doubt spiritual.

Chicken, meet egg.

graham christian
06-07-2012, 10:24 AM
Chicken, meet egg.

Ha, ha. Not quite. More effect meet cause.

Peace.G.

Chris Li
06-07-2012, 10:28 AM
Spiritual......I/P.......

I would say that the origins of I/P are no doubt spiritual. Unfortunately the use was a misuse and merely used for tricks within the limited framework of combat. Thus it would lead to having an edge. Thus it would lead to secrecy and secret techniques. Alas such is the way of human behaviour.

Spiritual is and always will be the source. To understand Ueshiba and what he did for me is very hard yet very simple. It's summed up in one word and that is not kojiki, it is Kannagara.

Understand the true concept of that and you will understand a lot of what Ueshiba said and meant.

Peace.G.

Since the Kojiki is a book, and Kannagara is a concept, it doesn't surprise me that they were different. :D

That being said, how about giving us your take on the meaning?

Also, there are records of Ueshiba citing Kannagara as a key concept from the early 1930's - maybe earlier, how does that fit into the pre-war/post-war dichotomy that you usually insist on?

Best,

Chris

Brett Charvat
06-07-2012, 10:34 AM
Sorry, I would like clarification on this, Graham. The following are your words, verbatim:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know."

(and then, after Mr. Harden accepted your invitation and offered you dinner)

"...there seems no reason for us two to meet."

I'm confused. Has the previous offer been rescinded? If so, why?

Brett Charvat

graham christian
06-07-2012, 11:29 AM
Since the Kojiki is a book, and Kannagara is a concept, it doesn't surprise me that they were different. :D

That being said, how about giving us your take on the meaning?

Also, there are records of Ueshiba citing Kannagara as a key concept from the early 1930's - maybe earlier, how does that fit into the pre-war/post-war dichotomy that you usually insist on?

Best,

Chris

You can cite it and then over time get to understand it more fully and understand more about other things from it. You may even see golden lights and hit enlghtening experiences. Then become certain, with conflicting mind gone. Sounds much like Ueshiba path to me.

Rather than just a concept it's a view of the universal principles of life, the cosmos. The spiritual basis of all from divine source. Thus this should be inherent in all religions for it is their root from which many may stray. Thus put back into it would make them better. It contains the principle of all or even best results coming from divinity etc. So it implies we must align with such no matter who we are or what religion. Much like Aikido and the words of Ueshiba.

That's my brief outline.

Peace.G.

Chris Li
06-07-2012, 11:31 AM
You can cite it and then over time get to understand it more fully and understand more about other things from it. You may even see golden lights and hit enlghtening experiences. Then become certain, with conflicting mind gone. Sounds much like Ueshiba path to me.

Rather than just a concept it's a view of the universal principles of life, the cosmos. The spiritual basis of all from divine source. Thus this should be inherent in all religions for it is their root from which many may stray. Thus put back into it would make them better. It contains the principle of all or even best results coming from divinity etc. So it implies we must align with such no matter who we are or what religion. Much like Aikido and the words of Ueshiba.

That's my brief outline.

Peace.G.

"Much like" - but how do you connect that to what Ueshiba actually said?

Also, what about the second half of the question - the pre-war/post-war dichotomy?

Best,

Chris

Brian Beach
06-07-2012, 11:32 AM
You can cite it and then over time get to understand it more fully and understand more about other things from it. You may even see golden lights and hit enlghtening experiences. Then become certain, with conflicting mind gone. Sounds much like Ueshiba path to me.

Rather than just a concept it's a view of the universal principles of life, the cosmos. The spiritual basis of all from divine source. Thus this should be inherent in all religions for it is their root from which many may stray. Thus put back into it would make them better. It contains the principle of all or even best results coming from divinity etc. So it implies we must align with such no matter who we are or what religion. Much like Aikido and the words of Ueshiba.

That's my brief outline.

Peace.G.

Or... it's a function of our shared biology. We experience the "spiritual" the same because we are built the same.

Gary David
06-07-2012, 11:33 AM
effect meet cause.

Peace.G.

aaahhh the ball is still in play.... the Artful Dodger is on the clock

IP/IS are just tricks....really........

Gary

mrlizard123
06-07-2012, 11:55 AM
http://www.e-travelguide.info/England/Wiltshire/Swindon/images/Magic-Roundabout.jpghttp://happyworx.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Magic-Roundabout-300x246.jpg

graham christian
06-07-2012, 12:00 PM
Sorry, I would like clarification on this, Graham. The following are your words, verbatim:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know."

(and then, after Mr. Harden accepted your invitation and offered you dinner)

"...there seems no reason for us two to meet."

I'm confused. Has the previous offer been rescinded? If so, why?

Brett Charvat

You're welcome.
I need good reason to meet up with anyone in AIkido or life. Don't you?

I don't need others 'good reasons' unless I'm lost.

Step up to the plate is a good saying to put there as you have for I don't agree with the 'shallow' view (as I see it) given to it.

It is generally seen and used nowadays like it's some kind of macho test, like some kind of wild west cowboy thing. Those who use it as such I see as too shallow. When I use it it has no such meaning.

For me an uchideshi for example would be someone who has stepped up to the plate. Thus it's nothing to do with macho challenge but real challenge which includes this major factor....sacrifice.


Giving up things in order to dedicate yourself to something for a set period of time.

Dedication and sacrifice.

Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.

So me saying no to Dan is actually a compliment to him. One day we may meet and one day we may spend a couple of weeks or more sharing otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

I would rather show nothing to someone who thinks they can go away knowing what I do by a quick visit.

I am talking me. So no need to debate the issue. Thus what others may see as 'great' when they say I should I actually find it quite insulting. I don't blame them for they don't know me. Sacrifice and dedication is quite the opposite to 'I'll buy you dinner'.

I'll give you 50p for your Hakama or that picture on the wall of your dojo. That's very nice of me don't you think?

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-07-2012, 12:09 PM
aaahhh the ball is still in play.... the Artful Dodger is on the clock

IP/IS are just tricks....really........

Gary

Ahh come on. Look in the mirror. Context. You are becoming quite artful though.

I bet you liked rock and roll too doing the twist. Trick does not mean not real and refers to what and how people used it.

Keep luvin it.

Peace.G.

mrlizard123
06-07-2012, 12:09 PM
Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.



Seems like a PA swipe at anyone training with Dan, coincidence he just mentioned he was in the U.K. twice a year? I'm sure you'll point out that this is my perception, not your intention... of course I likely didn't understand.

Why would you accept Mark visiting (sorry to use your name in this Mark, just the only person I know who I can use as a concrete example) but not Dan? Is this not "dilettantism" by your standards?

graham christian
06-07-2012, 12:16 PM
"Much like" - but how do you connect that to what Ueshiba actually said?

Also, what about the second half of the question - the pre-war/post-war dichotomy?

Best,

Chris

It connects with most of what he said, actually.

I already explained that above plus there is no dichotomy for me.

Built up realizations led to the change in view. The full understanding of budo is love and thus the post war change as he said, actually.

Kannagara, a universal, cosmic principle. A spiritual basic.

I need take this no further with you Chris for we have been there before.

Peace.G.

Marc Abrams
06-07-2012, 12:27 PM
At about one minute into this clip, we get to hear about the original poster of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8

Ask him a question and he can't provide real answers, based upon facts.

Ask him to live up to his words and watch him squirm out of it.

In a yard full of chickens, it is easy to tell the roosters from the hens..... Just saying....

Marc Abrams

Mark Freeman
06-07-2012, 12:49 PM
(sorry to use your name in this Mark, just the only person I know who I can use as a concrete example)

Hi Rich,

no problem, I use it all the time;)

it's not often I am cited as an example of concrete though:D

regards,

Mark

graham christian
06-07-2012, 01:03 PM
Seems like a PA swipe at anyone training with Dan, coincidence he just mentioned he was in the U.K. twice a year? I'm sure you'll point out that this is my perception, not your intention... of course I likely didn't understand.

Why would you accept Mark visiting (sorry to use your name in this Mark, just the only person I know who I can use as a concrete example) but not Dan? Is this not "dilettantism" by your standards?

Well I'm sorry but it happens to be how I am and one of our many differences.

Mark already had been in touch with me a number of times privately and shared some similar views and experience. He had, if you research my past posts on Ki Aikido etc. on occasion pointed out what I was saying was actually true despite many saying otherwise. He probably found my manner unusual though.

As I said also, attitude and approach. (read my reply to Dan, friendships come from similar views)

So we already understood from where we were coming. As it happens we then wanted to arrange further visits to each others actual classes.

There is no comparison. I professed a certain amt of knowledge and ability in a certain way. Mark is very capable in that particular way. It kinda fits naturally don't you think?

One more thing, none of this equals against. That's me and my way. I am not against Dan or you doing your whatever. Therefor if you, or anyone, can only think in such terms then you will see such things in what I say so you are seeing what isn't there.

Peace.G.

Brett Charvat
06-07-2012, 01:07 PM
You're welcome.
I need good reason to meet up with anyone in AIkido or life. Don't you?

I don't need others 'good reasons' unless I'm lost.

Step up to the plate is a good saying to put there as you have for I don't agree with the 'shallow' view (as I see it) given to it.

It is generally seen and used nowadays like it's some kind of macho test, like some kind of wild west cowboy thing. Those who use it as such I see as too shallow. When I use it it has no such meaning.

For me an uchideshi for example would be someone who has stepped up to the plate. Thus it's nothing to do with macho challenge but real challenge which includes this major factor....sacrifice.


Giving up things in order to dedicate yourself to something for a set period of time.

Dedication and sacrifice.

Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.

So me saying no to Dan is actually a compliment to him. One day we may meet and one day we may spend a couple of weeks or more sharing otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

I would rather show nothing to someone who thinks they can go away knowing what I do by a quick visit.

I am talking me. So no need to debate the issue. Thus what others may see as 'great' when they say I should I actually find it quite insulting. I don't blame them for they don't know me. Sacrifice and dedication is quite the opposite to 'I'll buy you dinner'.

I'll give you 50p for your Hakama or that picture on the wall of your dojo. That's very nice of me don't you think?

Peace.G.

Hi Graham, thanks for the reply. I apologize; I should have been clearer in my earlier post. It was not the phrase "step up to the plate" that I was interested in, but rather the one immediately following. I'll add emphasis and see if that helps. Again, you said:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and MEET ME and learn something they don't know."

So, with that in mind I'll pose the question again; is Mr. Harden's acceptance of your offer to meet you and buy you dinner acceptable to you? Or has the offer (to meet you) been rescinded? And again, if so, why?

Brett

Chris Li
06-07-2012, 01:18 PM
It connects with most of what he said, actually.

I already explained that above plus there is no dichotomy for me.



So when you said that some things that he said were "pre-Aikido" (but declined to ever say what those were, or what made them "pre-Aikido"), you were incorrect?

If anyone's interested, here's (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20637&highlight=pre-aikido) the thread.

Best,

Chris

David Orange
06-07-2012, 04:54 PM
Don't think you have any similar reality to me as to what stepping up to the plate means.

When you can step up to my plate, we'll see eye to eye. These modern stepping up to the plate attitude is so fake.

Peace G.

Really?

When we can step up to your plate?

That sounds very odd. Dan has offered to step up and compare notes with you. I stepped up to see what he offered.

It seems everyone is willing to "step up" except you.

That's disappointing Graham.

Here's how I had you pegged: I think you and I both might pass for the Paul Rudd character in Our Idiot Brother... I also figured you for the type that someone could insult to your face and ten minutes later, if you saw them in a burning house you would risk your life--or even give it--to save them. I'm that kind of person, myself. I might get mad and say something the first time. We might almost come to a fight, but ten minutes later, I'd risk my life to save theirs.

But...it looks like "step up" has a special meaning for you.

Maybe I was wrong about you.

Best to you.

David

Hellis
06-07-2012, 05:22 PM
As an old English guy, the term - stepping up to the plate - always meant `taking resposiblity -acceping or facing the challenge - I never saw it any other way, not something to juggle around to mean what ever one wanted it to mean.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

graham christian
06-07-2012, 05:34 PM
Really?

When we can step up to your plate?

That sounds very odd. Dan has offered to step up and compare notes with you. I stepped up to see what he offered.

It seems everyone is willing to "step up" except you.

That's disappointing Graham.

Here's how I had you pegged: I think you and I both might pass for the Paul Rudd character in Our Idiot Brother... I also figured you for the type that someone could insult to your face and ten minutes later, if you saw them in a burning house you would risk your life--or even give it--to save them. I'm that kind of person, myself. I might get mad and say something the first time. We might almost come to a fight, but ten minutes later, I'd risk my life to save theirs.

But...it looks like "step up" has a special meaning for you.

Maybe I was wrong about you.

Best to you.

David

Maybe you are wrong about me, you probably are. The example you give above is quite me though. So you're not wrong there.

If he had to go to let's say a dodgy part of london of the ethnic kind where a big brash American might feel a bit uncomfortable then I would soon sort that out too. No problem. If he's stuck for a place to stay I could sort that out too. If anyone on this forum came to london anywhere near this side of town and needed assistance, no problem.

As I said, it's all good.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-07-2012, 05:37 PM
Maybe you are wrong about me, you probably are. The example you give above is quite me though. So you're not wrong there.

If he had to go to let's say a dodgy part of london of the ethnic kind where a big brash American might feel a bit uncomfortable then I would soon sort that out too. No problem. If he's stuck for a place to stay I could sort that out too. If anyone on this forum came to london anywhere near this side of town and needed assistance, no problem.

As I said, it's all good.

Peace.G.

I coulda used a man like you in Moscow....

gregstec
06-07-2012, 05:38 PM
Yada, yada, yada - how many times do some people have to present the same rhetoric - i think most people in this forum have a real good idea of the positions of the key players in this thread on spirituality and IP - how about we all move on to some new stuff :)

Greg

graham christian
06-07-2012, 05:55 PM
Hi Graham, thanks for the reply. I apologize; I should have been clearer in my earlier post. It was not the phrase "step up to the plate" that I was interested in, but rather the one immediately following. I'll add emphasis and see if that helps. Again, you said:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and MEET ME and learn something they don't know."

So, with that in mind I'll pose the question again; is Mr. Harden's acceptance of your offer to meet you and buy you dinner acceptable to you? Or has the offer (to meet you) been rescinded? And again, if so, why?

Brett

Brett. Don't know where you're coming from or why. Me meeting anyone would be done by p/m anyway.

That's between me and them.

No juggling, just manners.

Dan shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. I give you my rules I follow with regards to meeting anyone. Don't you like them? I would not dare approach anyone in 'challenging' way or in a 'I'll give you this' way.

We may meet, that's between us. Your interest seems to mean you think I should or shouldn't. Why?

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-07-2012, 05:57 PM
I coulda used a man like you in Moscow....

Ha, ha, Moscow? Methinks I might need some protection there.

Peace.G.

Marc Abrams
06-07-2012, 06:08 PM
As an old English guy, the term - stepping up to the plate - always meant `taking resposiblity -acceping or facing the challenge - I never saw it any other way, not something to juggle around to mean what ever one wanted it to mean.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Henry:

Same on this side of the pond. Maybe it's just something with those younger English models... No, that's not it, your son is a proud example of a family tradition of excellence in Martial arts. Jugglers and slippery clowns are on both sides of the pond as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Brett Charvat
06-07-2012, 06:31 PM
We may meet, that's between us. Your interest seems to mean you think I should or shouldn't. Why?

Peace.G.

No, please don't misunderstand. Who you choose to meet is of course up to you and you alone. It's just that when someone makes an offer, such as "you can come and meet me," and then someone else responds with "okay, I'll come meet you," and then the first person comes back with "no, we're not going to meet," it just seems a bit, you know.....dodgy. Good luck in your training.

Brett

Chris Parkerson
06-07-2012, 06:59 PM
Sun Tzu in The Art of War speculated on the tactical use of the Pincer movement but advised against trying it, feeling that an army would likely run first before the move could be completed. He argued that it was best to allow the enemy a path to escape, as the target army would fight with more ferocity when completely engulfed....

Puha

Chris

graham christian
06-07-2012, 07:54 PM
No, please don't misunderstand. Who you choose to meet is of course up to you and you alone. It's just that when someone makes an offer, such as "you can come and meet me," and then someone else responds with "okay, I'll come meet you," and then the first person comes back with "no, we're not going to meet," it just seems a bit, you know.....dodgy. Good luck in your training.

Brett

O.K. That's clear. But so is reality. Saying Bill can come doesn't equal Jack can come.

Saying anyone can come or similar like any denomination etc. I think you will find still has a certain protocol and vetting procedure attatched. It may even be no hats allowed ha, ha.

We are responsible for our own actions. If I called you a worthless deluded fool and then said I'm coming to train with you might think a certain protocol was missing.

In fact if I did so I would expect a no. Reality.

Nos are good. Yes is a sword, no is a sword, accept either I say.

My old teacher had a great way. If someone said they were coming or appeared at the dojo he would introduce himself, listen to them and proceeed to give two examples. He would ask which one they prefered. Right answer they were welcome, wrong answer they were told it's not for them and sent packing.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-07-2012, 07:57 PM
Sun Tzu in The Art of War speculated on the tactical use of the Pincer movement but advised against trying it, feeling that an army would likely run first before the move could be completed. He argued that it was best to allow the enemy a path to escape, as the target army would fight with more ferocity when completely engulfed....

Puha

Chris

I prefer signposting the way in then those who don't follow the signposts don't make it.

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-07-2012, 10:40 PM
Dan shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. I give you my rules I follow with regards to meeting anyone. Don't you like them? I would not dare approach anyone in 'challenging' way or in a 'I'll give you this' way. .

Oh, man. I remember George W. Bush telling the terrorists, "Bring it on!"

That's what "Step up to the plate and meet me and learn something you didn't know" means.

Bring it on.

I don't tell anyone that.

David

David Orange
06-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Ha, ha, Moscow? Methinks I might need some protection there.

Peace.G.

Hmm. I spent the winter of 2001 in a little village about 30 miles outside Moscow, gathering intelligence for the British government. They suspected that the chemical plant there was producing neurotoxins for export to Britain. I had to check it out.

I could've used someone with your skills there.

David

David Orange
06-07-2012, 10:50 PM
...when someone makes an offer, such as "you can come and meet me," and then someone else responds with "okay, I'll come meet you," and then the first person comes back with "no, we're not going to meet," it just seems a bit, you know.....dodgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

David Orange
06-07-2012, 10:56 PM
My old teacher had a great way. If someone said they were coming or appeared at the dojo he would introduce himself, listen to them and proceeed to give two examples. He would ask which one they prefered. Right answer they were welcome, wrong answer they were told it's not for them and sent packing.

Indeed, there is an old tradition of such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg

Chris Parkerson
06-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Indeed, there is an old tradition of such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg

Silly wabbit.
Aye, but that rabbit has a mean streak a mile wide. It's a killer....
He's got huge, sharp... er... He can leap about. Look at the bones!

Chris

graham christian
06-08-2012, 01:23 AM
Indeed, there is an old tradition of such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg

There's a tradition on this forum:

http://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y

More you? ;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-08-2012, 01:44 AM
So when you said that some things that he said were "pre-Aikido" (but declined to ever say what those were, or what made them "pre-Aikido"), you were incorrect?

If anyone's interested, here's (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20637&highlight=pre-aikido) the thread.

Best,

Chris

You lost me there. Seems self evident to me.

Peace.G.

Hellis
06-08-2012, 02:59 AM
http://www.e-travelguide.info/England/Wiltshire/Swindon/images/Magic-Roundabout.jpghttp://happyworx.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Magic-Roundabout-300x246.jpg

Mornin all
A good nights sleep, rubs eyes, and we still can't get off this crazy roundabout :D

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

mrlizard123
06-08-2012, 03:12 AM
Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

Why would you accept Mark visiting but not Dan? Is this not "dilettantism" by your standards?

As it happens we then wanted to arrange further visits to each others actual classes.

So it began with dilettantism and progressed on to something more regular? You're suggesting that you'll be meeting up regularly for classes more than five or six days a year?

One more thing, none of this equals against. That's me and my way. I am not against Dan or you doing your whatever. Therefor if you, or anyone, can only think in such terms then you will see such things in what I say so you are seeing what isn't there.

No one said you were "against" the IP/Aiki teachings, rather that you don't present yourself in a manner that suggests you are qualified to discuss them. This is not a negative slight, we all have things we can learn, should we choose to, the problem is when we misrepresent ourselves, with comments such as "been there done that" when it is clear to people even with only a little experience that you are either mistaken or disingenuous, I'd like to believe it's the first.

The above series of quotes paints a quite simple picture; you were saying that people attending seminars as little as twice a year (coincidentally just after Dan mentioned he was in the uk twice a year...) or thereabouts are dilettantes but when it's pointed out that this definition includes yourself you introduce ad hoc reasoning that because you subsequently "wanted to arrange" further visits you do not fall in to this category; I'm afraid that doesn't logically hold water.

More accurate would be for you to say that you don't want to meet Dan (or other proponents of "internal" training) because you are not interested in learning anything about what people doing IP/Aiki are doing and you're happy doing what you're doing and leave it at that. To add to this that it's because you know it already and understand it (which, it seems, you say about pretty much anything on any subject) raises the obvious questions of why it isn't reflected in your discussion or movement?

It's ok to not know, it's ok to not want to know, as long as we're honest about it.

mrlizard123
06-08-2012, 03:14 AM
Mornin all
A good nights sleep, rubs eyes, and we still can't get off this crazy roundabout :D

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

It's a shame we can't embed the theme tune on loop when this thread is opened...

Holding hand up as guilty of crimes of thread continuation.

morph4me
06-08-2012, 07:09 AM
As an old English guy, the term - stepping up to the plate - always meant `taking resposiblity -acceping or facing the challenge - I never saw it any other way, not something to juggle around to mean what ever one wanted it to mean.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

That has always been my understanding. I think thist may be a matter of “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

Gary David
06-08-2012, 09:52 AM
Ahh come on. Look in the mirror. Context. You are becoming quite artful though.

Peace.G.

Graham
I look in the mirror every morning and what I see is what I think I should be seeing.........grey hair, grey mustache....like that......

When I want a true reflection of who I am at the moment I look into the faces of the people I am talking with, read the tone of their responses to me and the body language. With emails, the net, blogs and such....I look at the responses, how they are worded, the tone implied by the structure and like that....... that is one of the mirrors I use to adjust how I interact in the communities I am involved in.... the other ones are the good council of my wife and advice freely given from my friends........

You know..........I liked Bo Diddley as well.....

Gary

Henrypsim
06-08-2012, 10:47 AM
You're welcome.
I need good reason to meet up with anyone in AIkido or life. Don't you?

I don't need others 'good reasons' unless I'm lost.

Step up to the plate is a good saying to put there as you have for I don't agree with the 'shallow' view (as I see it) given to it.

It is generally seen and used nowadays like it's some kind of macho test, like some kind of wild west cowboy thing. Those who use it as such I see as too shallow. When I use it it has no such meaning.

For me an uchideshi for example would be someone who has stepped up to the plate. Thus it's nothing to do with macho challenge but real challenge which includes this major factor....sacrifice.


Giving up things in order to dedicate yourself to something for a set period of time.

Dedication and sacrifice.

Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.

So me saying no to Dan is actually a compliment to him. One day we may meet and one day we may spend a couple of weeks or more sharing otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

I would rather show nothing to someone who thinks they can go away knowing what I do by a quick visit.

I am talking me. So no need to debate the issue. Thus what others may see as 'great' when they say I should I actually find it quite insulting. I don't blame them for they don't know me. Sacrifice and dedication is quite the opposite to 'I'll buy you dinner'.

I'll give you 50p for your Hakama or that picture on the wall of your dojo. That's very nice of me don't you think?

Peace.G.

It is evident you have no idea about IP. Concur that continuous training in a dojo would be better than just taking a seminar. However, with IP, solo and mental training is a big part of it. Once understand the concept, it will take a long time to train solo. Once "succeeded" in IP, it can be applied to any martial art or style. Of course, it would be beneficial to have a teacher around "all the time" but to say IP seminars are baisically not effective is just showing that you have no concept of what IP is really about. Just my opinion, not intended to be insulting.

Rob Watson
06-08-2012, 11:50 AM
OSensei went a seminar or two with some quirky guy named Takeda. Next thing you now he stalks the guy for like 20 years and even buys him houses and stuff. Maybe some are afraid they'll do the same after a few seminars on IP. Seems like a good reason not to go to silly old seminars. Or even to met with 'them' folk.

graham christian
06-08-2012, 02:25 PM
So it began with dilettantism and progressed on to something more regular? You're suggesting that you'll be meeting up regularly for classes more than five or six days a year?

No one said you were "against" the IP/Aiki teachings, rather that you don't present yourself in a manner that suggests you are qualified to discuss them. This is not a negative slight, we all have things we can learn, should we choose to, the problem is when we misrepresent ourselves, with comments such as "been there done that" when it is clear to people even with only a little experience that you are either mistaken or disingenuous, I'd like to believe it's the first.

The above series of quotes paints a quite simple picture; you were saying that people attending seminars as little as twice a year (coincidentally just after Dan mentioned he was in the uk twice a year...) or thereabouts are dilettantes but when it's pointed out that this definition includes yourself you introduce ad hoc reasoning that because you subsequently "wanted to arrange" further visits you do not fall in to this category; I'm afraid that doesn't logically hold water.

More accurate would be for you to say that you don't want to meet Dan (or other proponents of "internal" training) because you are not interested in learning anything about what people doing IP/Aiki are doing and you're happy doing what you're doing and leave it at that. To add to this that it's because you know it already and understand it (which, it seems, you say about pretty much anything on any subject) raises the obvious questions of why it isn't reflected in your discussion or movement?

It's ok to not know, it's ok to not want to know, as long as we're honest about it.

Rich.
Do you think that is logic? More accurate would be you being more accurate.

Did Mark come to study something he didn't know? Think you'll find the answer there in plain sight. Therefor it can't come under dilettante. Quite straightforward really.

Dilettante is dipping your toes in, not committing to, ending up saying you have done all these various things and being very 'knowledgeable.

Does that equal those who went to Dans seminars? Some may be or maybe none are. Your twist not mine.

I don't agree with doing things for people short term, (teaching) for it attracts dilettantes. It's a fact.

Now those who know it's a fact and are not doing such things just for money or fame or such then they could take responsibility and vet in such a way as to not get many. Dan may be one of these but as I said he is not the subject except in your head.

The series of quotes therefor sure paint what you would like it seems.

Your conclusion is not correct either. So much for logic then. Let's see....

1) I can't help meeting people who have forms of internal strength or power training, how could anyone avoid it.

2) I have said numerous times I'm happy with what I do and not interested in learning I/P. Nothing new there. So not more accurate, just accurate.

Lots of things I don't know Rich. I don't know you so I don't comment on you for example.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-08-2012, 02:36 PM
It is evident you have no idea about IP. Concur that continuous training in a dojo would be better than just taking a seminar. However, with IP, solo and mental training is a big part of it. Once understand the concept, it will take a long time to train solo. Once "succeeded" in IP, it can be applied to any martial art or style. Of course, it would be beneficial to have a teacher around "all the time" but to say IP seminars are baisically not effective is just showing that you have no concept of what IP is really about. Just my opinion, not intended to be insulting.

It is evident I don't do I/P and don't profess to. I say nothing about I/P seminars or what you learn or how.

Nice explanation otherwise.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-08-2012, 02:45 PM
Graham
I look in the mirror every morning and what I see is what I think I should be seeing.........grey hair, grey mustache....like that......

When I want a true reflection of who I am at the moment I look into the faces of the people I am talking with, read the tone of their responses to me and the body language. With emails, the net, blogs and such....I look at the responses, how they are worded, the tone implied by the structure and like that....... that is one of the mirrors I use to adjust how I interact in the communities I am involved in.... the other ones are the good council of my wife and advice freely given from my friends........

You know..........I liked Bo Diddley as well.....

Gary

Nice twirl.;)

Peace.G.

hughrbeyer
06-08-2012, 07:06 PM
Just taking a turn on the merry-go-round...

1) I can't help meeting people who have forms of internal strength or power training, how could anyone avoid it.

Since you've heard in these discussions that there are very few people out there with the specific skills we are talking about when we say "IP/IS", why do you ask whether "anyone could avoid it?"

Since whatever skills you're talking about are so common no one could avoid them, surely the people who are impressed by IP/IS skills have met the skills you are talking about, weren't impressed, and went on to be impressed by Dan, Mike, Howie, or the others. Doesn't that suggest that the skills you are familiar with are not the IP/IS skills?

And until you meet Dan, Mike, Howie, or one of the others, how can you be sure the skills you've encountered and dismissed are the skills that these folks (and the rest of us) are talking about?

(Pissing into the wind, I know. But any thread which throws up that roundabout photo isn't all bad.)

graham christian
06-08-2012, 08:37 PM
Just taking a turn on the merry-go-round...

Since you've heard in these discussions that there are very few people out there with the specific skills we are talking about when we say "IP/IS", why do you ask whether "anyone could avoid it?"

Since whatever skills you're talking about are so common no one could avoid them, surely the people who are impressed by IP/IS skills have met the skills you are talking about, weren't impressed, and went on to be impressed by Dan, Mike, Howie, or the others. Doesn't that suggest that the skills you are familiar with are not the IP/IS skills?

And until you meet Dan, Mike, Howie, or one of the others, how can you be sure the skills you've encountered and dismissed are the skills that these folks (and the rest of us) are talking about?

(Pissing into the wind, I know. But any thread which throws up that roundabout photo isn't all bad.)

Hugh. I've heard a lot on here about when 'you say' I/P skills. Roundabouts may well fit.

I've heard Dan deny it's his or any small band of peoples I/P and it's been around for centuries. Mmmm. Seems quite well spread to me.

Now, I've heard Dan say his method of teaching is new and in fact by all reports, better.

I've heard Dan say that there aren't many worth their salt out there doing it. Which would mean to me that encountering anyone very good at it may thus be rare. That is probably true.

So that means many practice and probably many many more 'say' they practice I/P skills of which I have met and so is in my experience. Those from the small set of people you mention one. Those with good ability from that small set I/P wise, none.

Does that tell you something? ( I would be intrigued if pissing in the wind was one of the methods though, does it spiral?)

There can't be many any good at it because after the initial fervor it's all quietened down as reality sinks in and they realize it takes a long time to develop.

So it tells me Hugh that all those who are so used to physical have had their eyes opened to other possibilities. 'Dan opened my eyes to' may become a catchy phrase don't you think.

It also tells me Dan can demonstrate this particular set of internal skills and can do so under 'pressure', It tells me people have felt him do so. It tells me they liked it. It tells me they go away and practice bits. It tells me some have ventured to describe benefits they have gained from it. It tells me quite a lot Hugh.

Now, is there anything else you want to tell me I don't know? People here seem to love to, good game.

Maybe I should do an M and M and give you and them a nice list or even a few pages of what I don't know. Then all the 'clarences' could go back to their mums...::cool:

Peace. G.

hughrbeyer
06-08-2012, 10:07 PM
<Slides from the painted pony with a silly grin on his face and wobbles uncertainly across the midway*, staggering perhaps from the disorientation caused by going around in circles but more likely from the stiff three fingers of Laphroaig imbibed before the ride started>

* midway = fairgrounds, for you Limeys.

Carsten Möllering
06-09-2012, 07:38 AM
@ Graham:

What does the "/" in your "I/P" mean?

mrlizard123
06-09-2012, 07:43 AM
Laphroaig

Magic roundabout and Laphroaig; recipe for disaster! Good whisky choice though

Hellis
06-09-2012, 08:17 AM
@ Graham:

What does the "/" in your "I/P" mean?

Unbalanced ?

Mr Lizard

Just listened to the `magic rounabout` tune again - I wonder if Jun could add it to this thread ?

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Tengu859
06-09-2012, 10:23 PM
From some of my friends...

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste..."

"Ignorance is bliss..."

"You can lead a horse to water..."

I think most of you get the point...take care.

ChrisW

PS what do I know...

graham christian
06-10-2012, 03:37 AM
From some of my friends...

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste..."

"Ignorance is bliss..."

"You can lead a horse to water..."

I think most of you get the point...take care.

ChrisW

PS what do I know...

I agree..

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-10-2012, 03:43 AM
@ Graham:

What does the "/" in your "I/P" mean?

It means 'keep an open mind' in a 'roundabout' way. Boing........;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-10-2012, 03:59 AM
OSensei went a seminar or two with some quirky guy named Takeda. Next thing you now he stalks the guy for like 20 years and even buys him houses and stuff. Maybe some are afraid they'll do the same after a few seminars on IP. Seems like a good reason not to go to silly old seminars. Or even to met with 'them' folk.

Good idea. I could do with a few houses. Can you afford it? Ah but I don't want you following me around like a lapdog though. :)

Peace.G.

Carsten Möllering
06-10-2012, 09:04 AM
It means 'keep an open mind' in a 'roundabout' way. Boing........;)
Ok. Thank you for answering. I didn't mean to provoke in any way.

I just don't understand the intention to seperate a given word with oblique stroke. In the Geman language this wouldn't make any sense at all. There would be no "information" in it.

Tengu859
06-10-2012, 09:28 AM
I agree..

Peace.G.

I'm glad you like. Take care. Enjoy life. Your on your own path...

ChrisW

graham christian
06-10-2012, 01:05 PM
Ok. Thank you for answering. I didn't mean to provoke in any way.

I just don't understand the intention to seperate a given word with oblique stroke. In the Geman language this wouldn't make any sense at all. There would be no "information" in it.

It's just an initialism. Like shorthand. It may be lazy grammar technically but very common here. Sure you know what it stands for.

I could have said: Spiritual Aikido fe de conscious man dem and de udder ip ting deh fe dem internal people dem. :)

Peace.G.

David Orange
06-10-2012, 03:44 PM
Spiritual Aikido fe de conscious man dem and de udder ip ting deh fe dem internal people dem.

So you've been telling us...

Anthony Loeppert
06-10-2012, 03:47 PM
Sure you know what it stands for.


I seem to recall many a post of yours which chastises others for assuming what you do or do not know.



I could have said: Spiritual Aikido fe de conscious man dem and de udder ip ting deh fe dem internal people dem. :)


And just as intelligible as your previous posts. RASTA!

Haha.
Ah Graham, you crack me up.

Take care,
Anthony

sorokod
06-10-2012, 06:19 PM
It's just an initialism. Like shorthand. It may be lazy grammar technically but very common here.

Peace.G.

Very common? In U/K?

hughrbeyer
06-10-2012, 08:49 PM
For Carsten: Very common in English, although formally incorrect. Like using quotes around words on signs or putting an apostrophe before the final 's' on words that don't need it. I think people feel like a bunch of letters got left out, you should have something in there to show that they're gone. I'P? I.P.? That would be correct, actually.) I-P? But a capitalized acronym doesn't need anything.

Carsten Möllering
06-11-2012, 12:45 AM
Thank you very much!!!

sakumeikan
06-11-2012, 06:19 AM
It's just an initialism. Like shorthand. It may be lazy grammar technically but very common here. Sure you know what it stands for.

I could have said: Spiritual Aikido fe de conscious man dem and de udder ip ting deh fe dem internal people dem. :)

Peace.G.
Dear Graham,
The last quote [Rasta] is more intelligent than some of your other quotes.Why not just carry on using the Jamaica patois?Cheers, Joe.

Hellis
06-11-2012, 06:34 AM
Dear Graham,
The last quote [Rasta] is more intelligent than some of your other quotes.Why not just carry on using the Jamaica patois?Cheers, Joe.

Joe

I trust your good lady is knitting you a rainbow coloured tea cozy ?

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Marc Abrams
06-11-2012, 09:37 AM
Dear Graham,
The last quote [Rasta] is more intelligent than some of your other quotes.Why not just carry on using the Jamaica patois?Cheers, Joe.

Joe:

I think that we should put that to the test as well.... My friend from Kingston and I will drop him off in some nice places like Trivoli Gardens, Trenchtown, Spanishtown. etc. and see how the Patois hold up ;)

Be Well my friend,

Marc Abrams

graham christian
06-11-2012, 09:57 AM
Dear Graham,
The last quote [Rasta] is more intelligent than some of your other quotes.Why not just carry on using the Jamaica patois?Cheers, Joe.

Joe. Niceness my friend. Ya see, me na deal wit no intelligentia ya know. A genalship dat. (ya see dat word deh com from old time man deh, de generals.) So, dem man av de big word dem and dem inteligence but ya know wah, dem fool!!! Dem ave two face..;)

How do you like that?

Henry? Ya see big man don't affa chat so, me no know why im affa gwan so like me uncle......

Marc...ah true ting dat.....mek sure ya friend na deal wid no understanding ya hear me, im mus overstand de overstandings an no deal wid no dibby dibby business....:p

Peace.G.

Tengu859
06-11-2012, 10:34 AM
Yo G,

Mi hav fi ask ya. Is what you consider "true" aiki a martial art or is jus a spiritual path? The thread been long and winding, to go back and reread would take too much time... Thanks.

CW

graham christian
06-11-2012, 01:03 PM
Yo G,

Mi hav fi ask ya. Is what you consider "true" aiki a martial art or is jus a spiritual path? The thread been long and winding, to go back and reread would take too much time... Thanks.

CW

Yeah, it's a bit long.

I believe it is both. True spiritual path and thus true martial art.

Peace.G.

Tengu859
06-11-2012, 01:43 PM
G,

10-04. Enjoy!!! Take care.

CW

sakumeikan
06-12-2012, 02:22 AM
Joe. Niceness my friend. Ya see, me na deal wit no intelligentia ya know. A genalship dat. (ya see dat word deh com from old time man deh, de generals.) So, dem man av de big word dem and dem inteligence but ya know wah, dem fool!!! Dem ave two face..;)

How do you like that?

Henry? Ya see big man don't affa chat so, me no know why im affa gwan so like me uncle......

Marc...ah true ting dat.....mek sure ya friend na deal wid no understanding ya hear me, im mus overstand de overstandings an no deal wid no dibby dibby business....:p

Peace.G.
Graham,
The mail above would make a good rap song/Ska song.Your wasting your talent .Rather than sitting at the keyboard telling us about the many aspects of your aikido, you could be making loadsamoney as the worlds first Aikido rapper sensation.Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
06-12-2012, 02:28 AM
Joe:

I think that we should put that to the test as well.... My friend from Kingston and I will drop him off in some nice places like Trivoli Gardens, Trenchtown, Spanishtown. etc. and see how the Patois hold up ;)

Be Well my friend,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,
Are you testing Grahams vocal skills in Rasta talk, or are you suggesting that you are trying to lose him somewhere?Be a good fellow , send out a rescue party for Graham[not too early ] or lend him a sat nav, to get back to civilization.Cheers, Joe

graham christian
06-12-2012, 01:27 PM
Graham,
The mail above would make a good rap song/Ska song.Your wasting your talent .Rather than sitting at the keyboard telling us about the many aspects of your aikido, you could be making loadsamoney as the worlds first Aikido rapper sensation.Cheers, Joe.

Just feel it Joe, then blend and flow, Aikido.....yo!

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-15-2012, 07:05 PM
(Aiki...is not...and never was...about joining.)

Just read this on another thread. Is this an Aiki perspective?
Peace.G.

Anthony Loeppert
06-15-2012, 08:01 PM
(Aiki...is not...and never was...about joining.)

Just read this on another thread. Is this an Aiki perspective?
Peace.G.

Which thread? Is it better than this one?
Regards,
Anthony

mathewjgano
06-15-2012, 09:42 PM
(Aiki...is not...and never was...about joining.)

Just read this on another thread. Is this an Aiki perspective?
Peace.G.

I think that would depend on the semantics. I'm guessing this essentially means that aiki is not about compromising yourself for the sake of another, which is, I think, the meaning some folks apply to the idea of harmonizing with an attacker (in some kind of de factor sense, at least). My understanding, limited though it obviously is, is that aiki essentially forces connection...or at least includes, an irresistable force of attraction...that "sticky" quality.
Take care,
Matt

graham christian
06-16-2012, 07:06 AM
I think that would depend on the semantics. I'm guessing this essentially means that aiki is not about compromising yourself for the sake of another, which is, I think, the meaning some folks apply to the idea of harmonizing with an attacker (in some kind of de factor sense, at least). My understanding, limited though it obviously is, is that aiki essentially forces connection...or at least includes, an irresistable force of attraction...that "sticky" quality.
Take care,
Matt

That's interesting. Like sticky hands in wing chun?

The reference of not ever being about joining was followed by a sentence saying it was always learned solo, before ever touching hands.

That all fits with my view on I/P and puts it in perspective for me. Back to internal stuff yet nothing to do with Aikido.

Peace. G.

mathewjgano
06-16-2012, 10:11 AM
That's interesting. Like sticky hands in wing chun?
I think so...similar at least. My thinking had to do with a quality to practice where once connected, ideally aite cannot seperate unless tori allows for it.

The reference of not ever being about joining was followed by a sentence saying it was always learned solo, before ever touching hands.

That all fits with my view on I/P and puts it in perspective for me. Back to internal stuff yet nothing to do with Aikido.

Peace. G.

I couldn't say for sure of course, but my guess is this might have to do with meditation practices like chinkon no gyo, designed to focus on the integration of forces within the body; centering around centers of power like hara, etc. I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with Aikido. It might not be necessary for its practice, but I get the sense it can be a very big and central part of it and that O Sensei pobably felt it was important.
I'm not sure of much though, so, for whatever it's worth...
Take care,
Matt

DH
06-16-2012, 11:46 AM
That's interesting. Like sticky hands in wing chun?

The reference of not ever being about joining was followed by a sentence saying it was always learned solo, before ever touching hands.

That all fits with my view on I/P and puts it in perspective for me. Back to internal stuff yet nothing to do with Aikido.

Peace. G.

And the founder ...of...aikido would completely disagree with you. You don't get it Graham and none of the Teachers I have met ...in...aikido can function against what I am doing.
Why?
Because I (and others as well) am the one doing the aiki...do, that Ueshiba was talking about. The teachers I have met have no ability to blend with me, or move me with aiki because they quite simply do not know what aiki truly is.
When Osensei said "I am the universe" He was not making an egotistical or shamanistic statement. You need to develop aiki in you, then when someone touches you, your ki controls their ki.
"Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me."
I am very well aware of the fact that this is diametrically opposed to the accepted doctrine of modern Aikido. I am also intimately aware of the fact that my view (which is the classical view Ueshiba kept talking about) continues to completely take apart all those who practice your view. In other words. Your aikido ceases to function against aiki.
Ignorance of thousands of years of Asian teaching doesn't make someone correct or the result of their mistranslations now...true. It just makes them ignorant of profound truths.

Where we stand now is that people want to eliminate "competition" or success against pressure for the simple reason that it then allows all manner of New-age spirituality and personal spirituality to be acceptable and equally true or valid as a practice, when none of it empowers them to actually do..anything of worth against those who know the correct model.
Ueshiba was right and it seems desperately ignorant to ignore the fact that he...always won, and those practicing this way...keep winning as well.

Graham
I will be happy to check in with you when I can meet one of you who can do "aiki" with me. I will be the first to shout it from the roof tops!!!
In the mean time, I will continue to practice ...and quote...what Ueshiba was talking about, while everyone I continue to meet in Aikido stands there dumbfounded at what HIS work produces!
It is stunningly obvious that he was right after all.
Dan

David Orange
06-16-2012, 01:21 PM
Matthew Gano wrote:

"...aiki essentially forces connection...or at least includes, an irresistable force of attraction...that "sticky" quality."

Like sticky hands in wing chun?

No. I think he means that the person who grabs an aiki person finds it difficult to let go of them.

Wing Chun sticky hands is a technique. The wing chun man learns to stick to the other guy and lead him.

What I mean is when you can't let go of the aiki man--no matter where you grab him. As Matt said, "an irresistible force of attraction" that comes from the body of the aiki practitioner. You become stuck to him and must go where he goes.

I, unfortunately, have not developed that but I have felt it with others. Very few, but some.

FWIW

David

Chris Parkerson
06-16-2012, 02:38 PM
David,

Can this sticky-Aiki be done without First affecting the uki's frame/structure?
And, if so, can it be done without touching (like a magnetic force) uke's body?
Can it also Act as a repelling force without making contact with uke's body?

With great interest,

Chris

graham christian
06-16-2012, 04:00 PM
Matthew Gano wrote:

"...aiki essentially forces connection...or at least includes, an irresistable force of attraction...that "sticky" quality."

No. I think he means that the person who grabs an aiki person finds it difficult to let go of them.

Wing Chun sticky hands is a technique. The wing chun man learns to stick to the other guy and lead him.

What I mean is when you can't let go of the aiki man--no matter where you grab him. As Matt said, "an irresistible force of attraction" that comes from the body of the aiki practitioner. You become stuck to him and must go where he goes.

I, unfortunately, have not developed that but I have felt it with others. Very few, but some.

FWIW

David

Very interesting. Is this the same for bagua etc? If you have felt it from what type of practitioner did you feel such?

This could be of interest to me as it is different to what people feel from what I do. Meaning you 'can't' let go.

I have encountered and done sticky hands with a wing chun guy so I know what that feels like plus my godson does it too.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-16-2012, 04:22 PM
And the founder ...of...aikido would completely disagree with you. You don't get it Graham and none of the Teachers I have met ...in...aikido can function against what I am doing.
Why?
Because I (and others as well) am the one doing the aiki...do, that Ueshiba was talking about. The teachers I have met have no ability to blend with me, or move me with aiki because they quite simply do not know what aiki truly is.
When Osensei said "I am the universe" He was not making an egotistical or shamanistic statement. You need to develop aiki in you, then when someone touches you, your ki controls their ki.
"Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me."
I am very well aware of the fact that this is diametrically opposed to the accepted doctrine of modern Aikido. I am also intimately aware of the fact that my view (which is the classical view Ueshiba kept talking about) continues to completely take apart all those who practice your view. In other words. Your aikido ceases to function against aiki.
Ignorance of thousands of years of Asian teaching doesn't make someone correct or the result of their mistranslations now...true. It just makes them ignorant of profound truths.

Where we stand now is that people want to eliminate "competition" or success against pressure for the simple reason that it then allows all manner of New-age spirituality and personal spirituality to be acceptable and equally true or valid as a practice, when none of it empowers them to actually do..anything of worth against those who know the correct model.
Ueshiba was right and it seems desperately ignorant to ignore the fact that he...always won, and those practicing this way...keep winning as well.

Graham
I will be happy to check in with you when I can meet one of you who can do "aiki" with me. I will be the first to shout it from the roof tops!!!
In the mean time, I will continue to practice ...and quote...what Ueshiba was talking about, while everyone I continue to meet in Aikido stands there dumbfounded at what HIS work produces!
It is stunningly obvious that he was right after all.
Dan

None of the teachers can function against what you are doing? I'd like to hear that from their lips.

All it means to me is some find a person with internal 'power' a new challenge. It all depends on the abilities of the two people concerned rather than the art itself.

There is no doctrine called modern Aikido so that's more made up nonsense. I could use the statement Aiki in me before aiki between you and me so what's your point?

I am the universe is a spiritual statement from many spiritual practices.

Glad you can tell me when my Aikido ceases to function;) I wonder if Toheis ceased to function under such circumstances....:(

You may keep winning but I keep winning and so do my friends and no doubt many others as should be the case.

I don't do 'aiki' so no need to meet you and show you. Glad you're happy with your I/P aiki, your path not mine.

I too will continue to understand Ueshiba.

Peace.G.

graham christian
06-16-2012, 04:39 PM
I think so...similar at least. My thinking had to do with a quality to practice where once connected, ideally aite cannot seperate unless tori allows for it.

I couldn't say for sure of course, but my guess is this might have to do with meditation practices like chinkon no gyo, designed to focus on the integration of forces within the body; centering around centers of power like hara, etc. I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with Aikido. It might not be necessary for its practice, but I get the sense it can be a very big and central part of it and that O Sensei pobably felt it was important.
I'm not sure of much though, so, for whatever it's worth...
Take care,
Matt

I have no doubt it does Matthew. Aikido often described as moving meditation. I would say the top levels of all martial arts are very much to do with meditations.

Peace.G.

Tom Verhoeven
06-16-2012, 05:58 PM
Tom,

You're coming from a perspective in which both parties have equal validity from the beginning, but that is not the case on this forum.

If the topic is architecture, then Dan's point of view and opinions are far more valid than mine, though I have built buildings and repaired them and studied construction and so on. Dan is a professional architect, so whatever I may know about the subject, he knows almost infinitely more and his opinion matters more.

On this forum, we have people who trained for decades under direct students of Morihei Ueshiba. And then we have folks like Graham, who...well, it's not quite clear, yet, what he studied or under whom, but the one time he got close to a known master of aikido (Gozo Shioda), he did not touch him.

So are you saying that Graham's opinions on aikido are of equal weight to those of people like Ellis Amdur and Henry Ellis?

To try to put everyone on the same level of validity is ridiculous, I'm afraid.

It produces bizarre and useless perspectives.

Cheers.

David

David,
Certainly you are only jesting here, are you not?

Because what you are suggesting here sounds like something very ugly if not dangerous; "To try to put everyone on the same level of validity is ridiculous". Are you aware of the fact that you share this opinion with some of the most infamous leaders in modern history?

I am from the Netherlands and centuries ago the Dutch started a war against Spain (the Netherlands were subject to Spain) precisely for that reason. The Dutch insisted that the level of validity of each and every person is equal! Feudal Spain did not accept this and that lead to a war that lasted 80 years. Spain lost.
It brought us freedom of speech and freedom of printing. It brought us a translation of the bible into Dutch, it brought us the practice of science without the danger of being put in front of the inquisition. It brought us religious freedom. And not only to the Netherlands. Many countries in Europe changed after that war. It became later even an inspiration for the American war for independence.

Keep in mind that people fought and died for that freedom.

But here you are saying that on this forum both parties are not equal from the beginning?
The latin word forum means a square, a marketplace. It is inspired by the Greek Agora, the open place in the city of Athens where Socrates had many of his dialogues. In Roman times the forum was a place where anyone could sell his goods or hold a speech about his religious or political opinions. And just as in Athens it was the place where ideas were exchanged.

Just as that ancient Roman forum this Aiki web forum is open to all to express their opinions, their views, their insights, their experiences, their joy, their grief.

In a dialogue we listen to these opinions, views, etc in order to learn in a dialectic way. Which means that if your are convinced of someones arguments, there is no longer a need for a dialogue. You may confirm the other's opinion, but nothing much else is going on. But if you are not convinced by the other's argumentation, and you want to engage into a dialogue then you not only have to give a valid counter-argument, but the burden of proof is also on you!

Let's assume I tell you I have a white horse and you pass by my fields and see a dark horse. Then it is up to you to come with a valid argument that proofs that my horse is not white. You cannot say to me "I am David, son of the house of Orange and therefore your horse is dark". That may sound impressive, but it is invalid reasoning. Even if you are right! Because I do not own a white horse but a dark horse! I know it is a dark horse. But it makes no difference; the burden of proof is on you!

When I started my philosophy studies there were different methods of teaching-learning. One was the dialogue. Here each and every person that joins in has from the beginning equal validity. There was also a learning situation that looked more like what you describe. We did not call it a dialogue. We called it a lecture. It means you accept the authority of the lecturer and try to take in what he is telling. The position of these professors was/is similar as the position of one's Aikido sensei. In such a case you accept that the other person is more knowledgeable and that one has much to gain from the one direction flow of knowledge from him to you.

Of course this changes when the professor or architect or sensei starts expressing invalid arguments.

You have accepted Dan Harden as such an authority. Others have not. That does not mean that you can change the basic principles of dialogue! On this forum Dan Harden has to come with a valid counter argument just like every-one else. That you feel that the other party is not "equally valid" is completely irrelevant.

And I have op till now never heard Dan Harden, Ellis Amdur or Henry Ellis complain about this basic principle. And why should they? They come up with pretty solid argumentation!

By the way; the invalid argumentation was made by Chris Li, not by Dan Harden.

My apologies for responding to this post after some time. Wish I had spotted earlier.

Best regards,
Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-16-2012, 06:19 PM
David,
Certainly you are only jesting here, are you not?.....

My apologies for responding to this post after some time. Wish I had spotted earlier.

Best regards,
Tom

I resonate with your position. This, I was to understand, was designed as a forum. But I fear it is quickly becoming a venue for an internal battle wherein one poisition will develop an orthodox creed and determine that others who err in stating the creed are heretics.

This critique has nothing to do with the correctness or incorrectness of the content of a given writer. It has to do with the definition of a forum. Writers who's content is weak, will, over time, have few responders. Writers who have pith and marrow in their words, will be flooded with response.

And each topic should have the agency to stand on its own parameters so that a variety of content may freely be discussed without imposition of one creed as the measure of its validity.

We either trust and protect the forum as a process or we lose a valuable freedom - that of the forum.

Thanks You.

Chris

Chris Li
06-16-2012, 07:49 PM
By the way; the invalid argumentation was made by Chris Li, not by Dan Harden.


Well...I did look back, and I still think that it was a difference in opinion of how a third parties statement should be interpreted more than anything else. :freaky:

Anyway, Roman forums were hardly models of reasoned and logical discussion - and the internet isn't either. :D

Insisting that it ought to be probably won't go anywhere useful in the end, most over-moderated web forums end up dying.

Best,

Chris

Chris Parkerson
06-16-2012, 08:06 PM
Well...I did look back, and I still think that it was a difference in opinion of how a third parties statement should be interpreted more than anything else. :freaky:

Anyway, Roman forums were hardly models of reasoned and logical discussion - and the internet isn't either. :D

Insisting that it ought to be probably won't go anywhere useful in the end, most over-moderated web forums end up dying.

Best,

Chris

I do not think I or Tom are asking for outside moderating. Tom appears, like me, to be one who takes responsibility for himself and gives other's the respect and agency to do the same, be they novice or Shihan.

Sometimes I do wonder if the tensions are generated by a clash of two cultures; one which involves hierarchy and lineages while the other trusts that holarchy emerges naturally without effort or worry.

Blessings,

Chris

Chris Li
06-16-2012, 08:35 PM
I do not think I or Tom are asking for outside moderating. Tom appears, like me, to be one who takes responsibility for himself and gives other's the respect and agency to do the same, be they novice or Shihan.

Sometimes I do wonder if the tensions are generated by a clash of two cultures; one which involves hierarchy and lineages while the other trusts that holarchy emerges naturally without effort or worry.

Blessings,

Chris

Hmm...I don't think that David's actually arguing for hierarchy, although he'll have to speak for himself.

What we have is here is certainly not a pure dialectic, following the "laws of dialog" and shouldn't be expected to be so. It's just a bunch of folks gabbing.

Best,

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-16-2012, 08:43 PM
Well...I did look back, and I still think that it was a difference in opinion of how a third parties statement should be interpreted more than anything else. :freaky:

Anyway, Roman forums were hardly models of reasoned and logical discussion - and the internet isn't either. :D

Insisting that it ought to be probably won't go anywhere useful in the end, most over-moderated web forums end up dying.

Best,

Chris

You already made it very clear that you do not care much for a reasonable or logical discussion. So I no longer try to find anything logical or reasonable in your responses. As you have put it clearly yourself; you are just shooting the breeze.
Tom

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

Chris Li
06-16-2012, 08:56 PM
You already made it very clear that you do not care much for a reasonable or logical discussion. So I no longer try to find anything logical or reasonable in your responses. As you have put it clearly yourself; you are just shooting the breeze.
Tom

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

I didn't say anything of the sort, but...suit yourself. :p

Best,

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-16-2012, 09:08 PM
Hello Tom,

I'm a little confused about the above statement. It seems to imply there is a youtube video of Dan. If so, could you provide us with the link? Thank you.
Best,

Ernesto
Hello Ernesto,

You are confusing me now. Is there more then one Dan Harden teaching Aiki? I think I saw about six short youtube video-images, where he explained different ideas and approaches. Very interesting and very clear. I will try to find them on my other computer (this one does not show youtube) tomorrow and put a link here.
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom

Chris Parkerson
06-16-2012, 09:14 PM
Hmm...I don't think that David's actually arguing for hierarchy, although he'll have to speak for himself.

What we have is here is certainly not a pure dialectic, following the "laws of dialog" and shouldn't be expected to be so. It's just a bunch of folks gabbing.

Best,

Chris

I love that idea. Folks Gabbing. But some folks have explicitly expressed their concern that new aikidoka may be mislead, and they want to "protect" these new folks from false information. That is a fine ideal if you do so by dialogue and debate. But i believe the ideal can be sullied if one person stalks another from one thread to another thread and Presses upon the paramaters of that new thread, the unsolved issues of another thread, disrupting the flow of the new topic.

To be sure, there has never been perfection in a forum. Neither in Greece, Rome, Europe or in the Americas. But we should protect the ideal of what a forum is.

Orwellian "double speak" is ubiquitous these days. War is peace. Freedom is a high tech security state. Trust me, soon those lamp post that are sporting cameras in your neighborhood, will be using precognition technology, audio intercept, and will engage you by spotlighting you if you show any form of emotional display. We are quickly coming into a world of "thought police". I know. I work in the world of security management.

Protecting the ideal of a forum is of great value.

Waging Peace

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-16-2012, 10:35 PM
I would suggest that you do a bit more research into what Morihei Ueshiba thought about "competition". I think you will be surprised at what he really meant. Peter Goldsbury touched on that subject in a post here on Aikiweb ... or maybe it was in one of his TIE articles. From what I remember, to suggest that Ueshiba discounted all competition is wrong. If I recall correctly, Ueshiba discounted the kind of sport competition where there is an actual winner and loser. For example, Olympic Judo. I do not believe Ueshiba discounted peer competition within a dojo to make oneself better. I'm sure there are other definitions of competition that Ueshiba allowed and some that he did not.

I would disagree with this for the aiki arts. If we look at a brief glimpse of Ueshiba:

1. Tenryu could not budge him, push him over, move him, or get the better of Ueshiba because ... Ueshiba knew the secret of aiki. No mention of spirituality.

2. Shioda was tested and passed without mention of spirituality. It was entirely martial.

3. Ueshiba, himself, stated that aiki was not a religion but that aiki made religion better.

4. Ueshiba, himself, stated that one did not have to follow in his spiritual footsteps. He not only allowed but encouraged others to keep to their own spiritual path.

5. Horikawa and Sagawa were Ueshiba's peers and martially, they all did similar things. This martial skill can be directly traced back to Takeda and aiki. Aiki, the martial body changing method. No spirituality.

6. Ueshiba, himself, stated that he is not a religious man, but a man of budo.

7. Nearly every single martial artist who came into contact with Ueshiba, Horikawa, Sagawa, Takeda, all knew (not thought, not believed, did not quibble) that they had encountered something beyond (some said incomprehensible) all their 10, 20, 30 years of training in countless other martial arts including kendo, judo, jujutsu, karate, sumo, boxing. These highly skiled, experienced martial artists *heard* about the aiki greats, but it wasn't until they actually, physically experienced training with them did they find out how utterly wrong their opinions were. What was it that Ueshiba said of Takeda ... He opened my eyes to true budo.

So, when talking about the aiki arts ... no amount of "deep understanding" can be complete without the martial context. It Has To Be Felt. IHTBF. Not technique. Never technique. But, that aspect of the aiki arts ... which is "aiki" ... the aiki as handed down by Takeda must be there or there really is no "deep understanding".

100 years of studying Omoto kyo is not aikido. 100 years of being a devout christian is not aikido. 100 years of being Buddha is not aikido. While 100 years of spirituality may be its own reward, it should never be confused as synonymous with aikido. No aiki ... no aikido. Ueshiba said pick your religion, pick your spirituality, but this is budo, the way of aiki. And, if you read Chris Li's blogs, you begin to understand that Ueshiba talked incessantly about old, known martial training methods, sayings, ideas, etc. He just hid them inside his spiritual ideology. Martial training methods that have a spiritual component hidden inside spiritual ideology. Aiki completes religion/spirituality. And that is where one will find the deeper understanding.

All IMO anyway,
Mark

It is always good to do more research. I have a pretty good idea about what the founder really thought about competition. And I have read the articles of Peter Goldsbury. As to Judo on the Olympic Games; even Judo founder Jigoro Kano, IOC member, was against bringing Judo as a competing sport into the Olympics.
But you have missed my point. I was not discussing competition in sport or competing with peers in the dojo. I am saying that in the Western society we tend to see competition everywhere we look. We even think there is competition in nature! We create ways to compete, to get into contentious situations. It expresses itself on the mat by injuring people with rough behaviour, forcing techniques and damaging parts of the body. If someone complains, it is explained as being part of "real martial arts". I call that a hidden competition. The same people who do these things would in most cases never step into a ring, not even for a sparring session. But in an Aikido dojo they want to show that they are the best.
Others use Aikido for a political carrier. They represent a dojo or a group of dojo and they compete with other representatives to get to the highest position. Politics becomes a form of competition. And so is all too often getting a dan-grade. There are many hidden ways to compete with one another. There is something true and sincere about a real fight - a fight to the death. O Sensei pointed to this on several occasions and emphasized that the days of that kind of fighting and of war was over. But at the same time he dismissed the kind of hidden competition that we have seen in the passed decades in almost every country where Aikido became known. Instead he taught his students to train with the same sincerity as one would have in (preparing for) a real fight. The same sincerity can be used to create a world of peace.

As for your numbered list, that is the usual laundry-list is it not? I have seen the same arguments before in another thread(s). Some are historic facts, but bare little meaning. Or are statements to the same effect (Aiki is no religion, so what?). Or a personal interpretation that you obviously share with a group.
It is obvious that Chris Li's blog is your main source of information. As for myself; I was already aware of the fact that O Sensei based what he was teaching on older martial arts in the seventies. I can hardly believe that people nowadays think that this is some sort of shocking revelation.

O Sensei did not have a spiritual ideology. That is a crucial point in understanding Aikido.

Tom

Chris Li
06-17-2012, 01:47 AM
It is obvious that Chris Li's blog is your main source of information.

Actually, Mark had all of that stuff long before I ever put up a blog post. I think that you're late to the game in this particular discussion.

Best,

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
06-17-2012, 08:17 AM
I love that idea. Folks Gabbing. But some folks have explicitly expressed their concern that new aikidoka may be mislead, and they want to "protect" these new folks from false information. That is a fine ideal if you do so by dialogue and debate. But i believe the ideal can be sullied if one person stalks another from one thread to another thread and Presses upon the paramaters of that new thread, the unsolved issues of another thread, disrupting the flow of the new topic.

To be sure, there has never been perfection in a forum. Neither in Greece, Rome, Europe or in the Americas. But we should protect the ideal of what a forum is.

Orwellian "double speak" is ubiquitous these days. War is peace. Freedom is a high tech security state. Trust me, soon those lamp post that are sporting cameras in your neighborhood, will be using precognition technology, audio intercept, and will engage you by spotlighting you if you show any form of emotional display. We are quickly coming into a world of "thought police". I know. I work in the world of security management.

Protecting the ideal of a forum is of great value.

Waging Peace

Chris

Well said.
Communication is difficult enough by itself. The "rules of dialogue" are meant to make a discourse more clear, more understandable. It is like the oil in a machine, it makes it work more smooth. In exchanging ideas and concepts we want to be as clear as possible so there will be no misunderstanding in what we mean. We try to come up with facts that support our ideas. We try to formulate it the best we can. And for that we use reason and logic.

But not everybody wants to communicate this way. There are always filibusters who misuse the dialogue in order to force their opinion on someone else. They present something as a fact while in reality it is a interpretation or a vision of how they would like something to be. They come up with a translation that although not entirely wrong is nevertheless a particular interpretation of an original text. They use fallacies. Or try to confuse everyone by either not giving a proper definition or changing the meaning continuously. Or by trying to exclude someone from the discussion by suggesting that someone has not the same validity as they have or that someone is late in the discussion or by suggesting that someone should do more research on a subject.

Every trick in the book is being used to win the dialogue. Meanwhile forgetting that it was not about winning in the first place.

Where people are no longer able to communicate distance is created. That distance and unwillingness to listen to one another is what all to often leads to violence. Not using dialogue in a meaningful way is a step in that direction. That is why we need to cherish the ideal of a forum.

Having said this, dialogue is to me not always the best way of communicating. Sharing a meal with others, walking through the mountains with others, laughing together about a silly joke, listening together to some unknown or very familiar song or simply sitting next to one another enjoying the silence are to me more valid ways of communicating then these debates on AikiWeb.

Gassho,

Tom

Ernesto Lemke
06-17-2012, 08:28 AM
Hello Ernesto,

You are confusing me now. Is there more then one Dan Harden teaching Aiki? I think I saw about six short youtube video-images, where he explained different ideas and approaches. Very interesting and very clear. I will try to find them on my other computer (this one does not show youtube) tomorrow and put a link here.
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom

Goedemiddag Tom! ;)

Thank you for coming back to me. It so happenes that I stumbled on your website by accident earlier today. That is quite an interesting project you've got there! If you don't mind the thread drift, I was quite intrigued by the photograph of Ueshiba on the homepage. I never seen that one before and even put a link up on Facebook. I have some additional questions so I might send you a PM later today (but I'll switch to Dutch then :D ).

I think Chris' point of coming late to the discussion has some merit in the sense that the very heated debates on IP/Aiki/IS/IT etc. have already taken place a couple of years ago. I understand it's rather daunting to re-read years and years of posts, and I won't ask you to, but as for myself, I would not want to have missed it for the perspective I gained. One of the main conclusions I drew is how hard it is to find a common ground to discuss this without sounding like you want to convert people. I can't deny that some aspect of that tends to creep in.
I think some of that may stem from the fact that many who now "see" know what it was like to "not see". So reading the statements from those who do "not see" is like reading ones own former statements. But it was the physical interaction with people with the skills known as either IP/Aiki/IS etc. that ended all debate and doubt. In person, not online. And Dan is only one of them.

Now what is rather nice about Dan is that he, as opposed to many other like him, is active online and debating with everyone he's engaged with. he has held much the same position regarding these skills for over a decade, mostly as an "outsider" looking in. Now that he is out there doing seminars, he is providing those who kept an eye on him (be it positive or negative) to physically verify his claims. And I'm not suggesting in the way of fighting or testing (though there is some of that as well - all friendly :D ).
I kept an eye on him for over 10 years before I finally got the change to meet him by arranging a seminar in Holland. During that past decade his posts many times infuriated, intrigued and above all fascinated as it sounded so promising. Too promising back then. But now....

Back to the thread: Could it be that you are confusing Dan with Dane Harden? I did another search and came up with a few hits like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qHW48nxla8). If this is the case, then it would require a fundamental shift in whatever pre-conceptions (if any) you might have constructed of Dan based on these vids.
This gentleman is not Dan. Far far from it - with all due respect.

Dave de Vos
06-17-2012, 09:59 AM
Could it be that you are confusing Dan with Dane Harden? I did another search and came up with a few hits like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qHW48nxla8). If this is the case, then it would require a fundamental shift in whatever pre-conceptions (if any) you might have constructed of Dan based on these vids.
This gentleman is not Dan. Far far from it - with all due respect.

Quoting Ernesto, but talking to Tom:

I've never seen videos of Dan. But since about a year there are some pictures of his seminars floating around on the web. These pictures were taken and published on the web with Dan's approval (I suppose).
Some pictures are posted on Aikiweb and some are linked to from Aikiweb, like these http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dan-Harden-at-Aikido-Eastside/219248654764115. So you can check these and see if you found the same guy.

Tom Verhoeven
06-17-2012, 10:27 AM
Goedemiddag Tom! ;)

Thank you for coming back to me. It so happenes that I stumbled on your website by accident earlier today. That is quite an interesting project you've got there! If you don't mind the thread drift, I was quite intrigued by the photograph of Ueshiba on the homepage. I never seen that one before and even put a link up on Facebook. I have some additional questions so I might send you a PM later today (but I'll switch to Dutch then :D ).

I think Chris' point of coming late to the discussion has some merit in the sense that the very heated debates on IP/Aiki/IS/IT etc. have already taken place a couple of years ago. I understand it's rather daunting to re-read years and years of posts, and I won't ask you to, but as for myself, I would not want to have missed it for the perspective I gained. One of the main conclusions I drew is how hard it is to find a common ground to discuss this without sounding like you want to convert people. I can't deny that some aspect of that tends to creep in.
I think some of that may stem from the fact that many who now "see" know what it was like to "not see". So reading the statements from those who do "not see" is like reading ones own former statements. But it was the physical interaction with people with the skills known as either IP/Aiki/IS etc. that ended all debate and doubt. In person, not online. And Dan is only one of them.

Now what is rather nice about Dan is that he, as opposed to many other like him, is active online and debating with everyone he's engaged with. he has held much the same position regarding these skills for over a decade, mostly as an "outsider" looking in. Now that he is out there doing seminars, he is providing those who kept an eye on him (be it positive or negative) to physically verify his claims. And I'm not suggesting in the way of fighting or testing (though there is some of that as well - all friendly :D ).
I kept an eye on him for over 10 years before I finally got the change to meet him by arranging a seminar in Holland. During that past decade his posts many times infuriated, intrigued and above all fascinated as it sounded so promising. Too promising back then. But now....

Back to the thread: Could it be that you are confusing Dan with Dane Harden? I did another search and came up with a few hits like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qHW48nxla8). If this is the case, then it would require a fundamental shift in whatever pre-conceptions (if any) you might have constructed of Dan based on these vids.
This gentleman is not Dan. Far far from it - with all due respect.

Bonjour Ernesto,

Yes, it is very well possible that I am confusing Dan Harden with someone else. Used Google to find some video-images and naturally assumed that this was the Dan Harden everyone was talking about. You are the first to point to the fact that I am mistaken. And I am most grateful to you that you have done that.

Looking back at my posts, I think it was my last post where I asked a question about godai and gogyo that no longer is valid, because of my wrong premiss.

As for your other point. I do not have any pre-conceptions of Dan Harden. I find what he has been telling on this forum intriguing, interesting and often in concord with my own experiences.

In general I try to keep an open mind to everyone's story. An open mind after all is a precondition to learning.

And yes there may be moments that I do not agree with the statements or points of view of Dan Harden, or the rather blunt way of presenting his case at times, but up till now I have not mentioned any of these objections on this forum.

The objections that I did mention had mostly to do with the form or the structure of the dialogue. As a result people wanted to object to the content of what they thought I was saying, while I was only talking about form.

I will admit that there may be some merit to Chris Li's point that I am coming in late in this discussion. But I do not consider myself a newcomer in the world of Budo. The discussion in itself is not new either, I have followed many discussions on similar subjects. The old discussions about ki comes to mind. Even when entering a discussion late it should be possible to formulate a few basic definitions to see where the difference of opinion lies.
On this platform I cannot "feel" or "see" what is meant by Aiki/IP/IS. That is meant for in the dojo. On this platform we use words, definitions, valid argumentation to get an idea across. I can imagine that the perspective on Aiki/IP/IS of someone who has trained with Dan Harden has changed. But from that it does not follow that you can dismiss logic and reason. In fact, someone who is speaking from experience should be better in formulating these idea's then those who do not have that experience. Up till now I have not seen that.

vriendelijke groet,

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
06-17-2012, 10:33 AM
Quoting Ernesto, but talking to Tom:

I've never seen videos of Dan. But since about a year there are some pictures of his seminars floating around on the web. These pictures were taken and published on the web with Dan's approval (I suppose).
Some pictures are posted on Aikiweb and some are linked to from Aikiweb, like these http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dan-Harden-at-Aikido-Eastside/219248654764115. So you can check these and see if you found the same guy.

Hello Dave,
As I mentioned to Ernesto I got it wrong and confused him with someone else.

I thank you as well for pointing this out to me. And for the photo on facebook. Will not make that mistake again.

vriendelijke groeten,

Tom

hughrbeyer
06-17-2012, 09:04 PM
Certainly you are only jesting here, are you not?

Because what you are suggesting here sounds like something very ugly if not dangerous; "To try to put everyone on the same level of validity is ridiculous". Are you aware of the fact that you share this opinion with some of the most infamous leaders in modern history?

This is quite an impressive straw man you've created here, from a measly bit of moldy hay.

It's our modern problem that we no longer believe in elites. These days no one is special; no one is an expert; an encounter between teacher and student is supposed to be a "dialog" between equals where the student of two month's point of view has as much validity as a teacher's of forty years.

I want no part of that. We are all equal before God; we are all equal at the ballot box; we are all equal in the courts. On the mat? I'm sorry--I know very well where I stand. And when those I've chosen as my teachers speak on subjects within their expertise I have no need to claim an "equal" place. Because such equality is a sham.

On the web it's a little harder to figure out who has expertise and who doesn't. But it is a community--which means you know people who know people; people you trust know people they trust. And when lots of trustworthy people have all begun to trust someone (or a set of people), it pays to listen. And if you don't know any of them?

Get out more.

mathewjgano
06-17-2012, 11:57 PM
This is quite an impressive straw man you've created here, from a measly bit of moldy hay.

It's our modern problem that we no longer believe in elites. These days no one is special; no one is an expert; an encounter between teacher and student is supposed to be a "dialog" between equals where the student of two month's point of view has as much validity as a teacher's of forty years.

I want no part of that. We are all equal before God; we are all equal at the ballot box; we are all equal in the courts. On the mat? I'm sorry--I know very well where I stand. And when those I've chosen as my teachers speak on subjects within their expertise I have no need to claim an "equal" place. Because such equality is a sham.

On the web it's a little harder to figure out who has expertise and who doesn't. But it is a community--which means you know people who know people; people you trust know people they trust. And when lots of trustworthy people have all begun to trust someone (or a set of people), it pays to listen. And if you don't know any of them?

Get out more.
I don't know...
The community isn't exactly equal along all parts of the spectrum, is it? It's easy to say just ask someone you trust to ask someone they trust and so on, but it doesn't always actually work so easily as that, as far as I can tell. Plus there's a bit of a process which takes time for that kind of thing...which also varies based on the particulars of where in the community we're at.
I've asked a variety of people to give their impressions on people and recieved practically nothing in return. People aren't always helpful where we would like them to be.
When it comes to engaging a conversation we're all equals. When it comes to understanding that conversation we're not all equals. Tom's describing the first part, as I see it.
I still think the biggest hudle isn't people thinking they know more than they do. I think it's conventions in language and personality.
Like I said though, I don't know.

Also, to comment on my earlier remarks about "sticky," David made a good distinction (as far as I can tell). I have no real familiarity with Wing Chung sticky hands drills, so they are probably quite different.
Be excellent to each other,
Matt

Chris Parkerson
06-18-2012, 12:12 AM
Matt,

How cool. Bill and Ted, right?
Can I steal that?

Be excellent to each other..
Party on, Dude.

Chris

mathewjgano
06-18-2012, 01:21 AM
Matt,

How cool. Bill and Ted, right?
Can I steal that?

Be excellent to each other..
Party on, Dude.

Chris
Hi Chris,
I stole it, so you have my permission to re-steal it! :D
I recently read a George Carlin quote I really liked (I like pretty much all of them) so I may have been channeling my inner Rufus.
(Awesome air-guitar solo)
Take care,
Matt

Tom Verhoeven
06-18-2012, 11:28 AM
This is quite an impressive straw man you've created here, from a measly bit of moldy hay.

It's our modern problem that we no longer believe in elites. These days no one is special; no one is an expert; an encounter between teacher and student is supposed to be a "dialog" between equals where the student of two month's point of view has as much validity as a teacher's of forty years.

I want no part of that. We are all equal before God; we are all equal at the ballot box; we are all equal in the courts. On the mat? I'm sorry--I know very well where I stand. And when those I've chosen as my teachers speak on subjects within their expertise I have no need to claim an "equal" place. Because such equality is a sham.

On the web it's a little harder to figure out who has expertise and who doesn't. But it is a community--which means you know people who know people; people you trust know people they trust. And when lots of trustworthy people have all begun to trust someone (or a set of people), it pays to listen. And if you don't know any of them?

Get out more.

Where do you suppose I made a strawman? It was David who was talking about “level of validity”. And that was what I addressed. No strawman there.
I cannot help it that David’s argument is part of a long discourse and that this discourse and the conclusions that came out of it has had a major effect on history and on our modern society. I do think it is important that we are at least to a certain extend aware and knowledgeable about this.

This forum is a public place. We share this with one another on an equal basis. Very much like we would use public transport or go to a pub(it comes from the word public house if I recall correctly) or a restaurant. You would complain if you for the same money would get less then the man next to you.
Yet for some strange reason some think that for this forum one person is better qualified then an other. That there is more validity to the words of this person then the other. That there is no need to look at what this person is actually saying or how he is formulating his arguments. That the validity of his words lies in the person himself.
That leads to a slippery slope. For who is going to decide that there is more validity in the words of person A then in person B? Or if we have to decide for ourselves, how are we going to do that? Which criteria are we going to apply? Are we going to vote for it? Are we going to make a validity-list and put it on this forum? “You are not allowed to question person A! However, you may ask harsh and silly questions to person B”.

On a personal level I might take a different stand. There are some teachers that I admire and who are an example to me. They do not always use dialogue to teach, or a lecture. Often they show the direction of there knowledge by example. Or in parables. Or in poetry. In humor. It takes a different kind of effort to learn from them. Here the “level of validity” does not come into play. It is a different kind of communication. And a different kind of relationship.

There is something ironic about people who are into martial arts and disavow the principles of conduct in a dialogue. The earliest people who formulated these principles were warriors. If you want to learn about solid argumentation then Socrates is one of the finest examples in history. Yet he was a well trained warrior who fought in man-to-man battles against the enemies of Athens. His student Plato was a great athlete and famous wrestling champion (his name probably refers to his broad shoulders). To name just a few, for the list is long!

So what should we say about people who call themselves martial artist but cannot deal with decent exchange of arguments? That they are whimps? (and yes, that is an argumentum ad hominem).

Tom

MM
06-18-2012, 12:10 PM
Where do you suppose I made a strawman? It was David who was talking about "level of validity". And that was what I addressed. No strawman there.
I cannot help it that David's argument is part of a long discourse and that this discourse and the conclusions that came out of it has had a major effect on history and on our modern society. I do think it is important that we are at least to a certain extend aware and knowledgeable about this.

This forum is a public place. We share this with one another on an equal basis. Very much like we would use public transport or go to a pub(it comes from the word public house if I recall correctly) or a restaurant. You would complain if you for the same money would get less then the man next to you.
Yet for some strange reason some think that for this forum one person is better qualified then an other. That there is more validity to the words of this person then the other. That there is no need to look at what this person is actually saying or how he is formulating his arguments. That the validity of his words lies in the person himself.
That leads to a slippery slope. For who is going to decide that there is more validity in the words of person A then in person B? Or if we have to decide for ourselves, how are we going to do that? Which criteria are we going to apply? Are we going to vote for it? Are we going to make a validity-list and put it on this forum? "You are not allowed to question person A! However, you may ask harsh and silly questions to person B".

On a personal level I might take a different stand. There are some teachers that I admire and who are an example to me. They do not always use dialogue to teach, or a lecture. Often they show the direction of there knowledge by example. Or in parables. Or in poetry. In humor. It takes a different kind of effort to learn from them. Here the "level of validity" does not come into play. It is a different kind of communication. And a different kind of relationship.

There is something ironic about people who are into martial arts and disavow the principles of conduct in a dialogue. The earliest people who formulated these principles were warriors. If you want to learn about solid argumentation then Socrates is one of the finest examples in history. Yet he was a well trained warrior who fought in man-to-man battles against the enemies of Athens. His student Plato was a great athlete and famous wrestling champion (his name probably refers to his broad shoulders). To name just a few, for the list is long!

So what should we say about people who call themselves martial artist but cannot deal with decent exchange of arguments? That they are whimps? (and yes, that is an argumentum ad hominem).

Tom

You blend three very distinct ideas into one. First, yes, this is a public forum. No disagreement there.

However, 2 and 3 are not to be confused or combined. First, some people are immenently more qualified to discuss certain subjects than others. For instance, if Graham Christian who has very little ability to read, write, or translate Japanese start telling Peter Goldsbury or Chris Li that their translations are wrong ... well, you might as well say the Earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and the sky is neon green with purple polka dots. Peter and Chris are extremely more qualified and their words are well more valid in discussing Japanese translations than either Graham or me.

If you're supposed to sit in a Space Shuttle to go to the space station, who do you want talking and working out the details? Jay Leno or NASA Engineers?

Doesn't matter how Jay Leno formulates his arguments or what he says, if you listen to him, you'll either never get there or die trying. NASA Engineers have an excellent track record. Not every opinion is true or valid. Not every opinion should be listened to.

Finally (your third point), disavowing the principles of conduct in a dialogue ... that goes both ways. If some soke grandmaster of DimMak ryu shows up and he has almost no background in aikido except glancing at forums and reading some books comes on here telling everyone what Morihei Ueshiba really meant ... those people who defend this "soke" have violated and disavowed the principles of conduct in a dialogue.