Arm locks... really???????

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[Andrew Macdonald]

in a recent revival of a old thread it was stated by a few people that the most effective technique in a fight is an arm lock. to start of a discussion about that i would like to ask 2 questions

1. when you are in a fight what is your goal? or to put it another way what is a win for you

2. What s the purpose of the arm lock? or at least what comes after?

[Lyle Laizure]

I have used an arm lock once in an altercation. It was strictly for the submission due to the individual I was using it on. It wasn't to "win" so much as to let the individual know that their actions weren't acceptable.

[philipsmith]

Arm locks in action!

http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/stormont-security-review-call/UX-t_5DL3cJm_4bcS7IwEA

[Michael Varin]

Philip,

That video is a great example of the importance of arm locks when a weapon is or is likely present (the guard should probably work on his rokkyo a bit, but under the circumstances, hey ;) ).

In that situation, a body lock or a double leg or sticking him with a jab are unlikely to reduce the danger.

While I suppose there could be many answers, it is worth considering why so much focus was put on arm locks in traditional martial arts, arts that grew up around swords, knives, spears, sticks, etc.

So to add to Andrew's intial questions, I suppose we could ask:

What is the context for your fight? Or maybe more fundamental, What is the purpose for the fight?

What is appropriate will vary depending on your answers to those questions.

[Alec Corper]

1. To get home safely and avoid jail
2. To subdue if help is at hand, as a lead into a throw or strike with more disabling power to give time to escape, re number1
My problem is with the use of the word fight. it implies two people squaring off to one another, preceded with verbal posturing, monkey dancing etc. Most of my actual experience in the "real world" are ambushes and sucker punches, or gang fights, catch as catch can, where recovery from shock and surprise are more important than techniques.

[Lyle Laizure]

recovery from shock and surprise are more important than techniques.

Most definately!!

[ChrisHein]

In any "fight" my goal is always the same, to end the "fight" quickly and in the least destructive manner possible. But as Michael Varin brings up, a "fight" could be a lot of things. The methods I use to end the "fight" will very greatly depending on what kind of "fight" we are talking about, even though my goal will always be the same.

Arm, wrist, body, or leg, holds, and joint techniques are very useful tools, in some situations they may be the key or ultimate tool. Some times a clever phrase, stern look, or heightened awareness is the the best solution. Sometimes a Firearm, Tank or Fighter Jet might be called for.

You must always, first and foremost consider context when asking what "works" best.

[graham christian]

I would say the purpose of the armlock is twofold along with any other such things. 1) To disable the other. 2) To put yourself in total control of the other. In other words to disable and remain connected physically and in control.

Thus it would be more useful for club bouncers and doormen, policemen and security people. In situation where the other has to be apprehended, held.

Different situations, different tools.

Peace.G.

[Gorgeous George]

in a recent revival of a old thread it was stated by a few people that the most effective technique in a fight is an arm lock. to start of a discussion about that i would like to ask 2 questions

1. when you are in a fight what is your goal? or to put it another way what is a win for you

An interesting real-life situation, well-documented, that might interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc

For one-on-one, unarmed violence, i'd favour a strangle: "There are strong arms and strong legs - but no strong necks.".
If somebody's asleep, you've controlled them - safely, and efficiently; with jointlocks, even if you control them, or break their joint, they might still struggle - and no matter what you're on, or how strong you are, physiologically, you can't resist a strangle.

[Chris Parkerson]

Hey Graham,
Great real life video. The morote gare from a seated position was well executed.
I suspect, from a legal standpoint (criminal code) the ju jitsu man is probably safe. But only due to the majority of supporters' witness statements. But if the cops get hold of this video, he could be arrested for assault. His saving grace is that he was compassionate even in execution.

Stand-your-ground rules for self defense are under attack since the big Trayvon Martin ruckus in
Florida. Senator Charles Schumer is pushing to deny federal funds to states who maintain stand-your-ground laws.

Chokes and strangles are potentially "Deadly Force" in the force continuum. I also think that trained fighters train their necks. I sure did. Most Judo and Jujitsu guys I know have done so to. In such an opponent, rather than untrained ones, arm bars do have a higher combat efficiency value, from my and a few other's perspectives. Hal Von Luebbert actually did a study on this for the army back in the late 1950's. Arm locks (without the koppo) are both effective and compassionate in dealing with unruly folks. Hal developed an excellent kata using the 2 on 1 grip. To test it, he fought his way to the US Internationals just using his kata and took a bronze medal for his efforts.

Again, what a great training video. Thanks.

[TheAikidoka]

1. To get home safely and avoid jail
2. To subdue if help is at hand, as a lead into a throw or strike with more disabling power to give time to escape, re number1
My problem is with the use of the word fight. it implies two people squaring off to one another, preceded with verbal posturing, monkey dancing etc. Most of my actual experience in the "real world" are ambushes and sucker punches, or gang fights, catch as catch can, where recovery from shock and surprise are more important than techniques.

Well done here Alec, totally agreed, in a real situation, there is not much more you can do. My old teacher used to say train like crazy mad men (controlled you understand), then you can or should be able to fight fairly easily. However, he told us that is not the end of the matter, to remain calm afterwards is far more important (the shock), and keep your awareness, just in case his/her mates comes running up to join in! (zanshin).

He told us being a bar owner himself, he had witnessed people get into fight through no fault of there own, some won their fight, some did not, but always he said, always somebody would loose there mind afterwards. And normally he said it was the person who had won the altercation but did not ask for it, and they would lash out in total confusion. They would inevitably go back for the person who started it in the first place, and even more in a fit of rage and wanting to hurt them and do more damage, because the shock has taken over.

I stayed with my teacher for ten years. Yes arm locks do work or we would not be practicing them, but when and where to apply them is not down to the martial art, It is down to the individual who sees fit use such force as necessary in the first place. And then if it don't work we hear people cry ha that's Aikido for you, well the art does not pick the student, the student picks the Art, so at no point should the art be criticized, because there are also good and not so good Aikidoka.

The purpose of my initial Aikido training was training my awareness, my teacher said without this Aikido is useless. Be aware of a situation developing, then get the hell out of there, use Aikido as the very last resort, well that is what my teacher taught me, for what it`s worth.

Always In friendship,

Andy B

[Alec Corper]

An interesting real-life situation, well-documented, that might interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc

For one-on-one, unarmed violence, i'd favour a strangle: "There are strong arms and strong legs - but no strong necks.".
If somebody's asleep, you've controlled them - safely, and efficiently; with jointlocks, even if you control them, or break their joint, they might still struggle - and no matter what you're on, or how strong you are, physiologically, you can't resist a strangle.

First off the guy was drunk and uncoordinated. the takedown was good but really dangerous if you don't know if the guy is armed. that's just my personal take on things, I don't want to go to the ground with the other guy even in a one on one, but them I'm 60 so perhaps that plays a role. i also train sometimes with dull blades and know how fast they can be accessed. Being on top of someone means controlling their hands at all times whilst ensuring they don't bite your face off!
Yes, chokes work but they are potential law suits and they can be misjudged especially with someone on drugs or very hyped up.
i'm reminded of something Paul Vunak once said upon being asked what was the most powerful technique he knew, "A Tai Chi throw", then after a pause, "in the direction of a moving car".
Situational awareness to me means using anything and everything as a weapon or a shield. In confined environments foot traps and bumps into the wall and tables resulting in sprains or contusions allowing for escape are preferable to tying yourself up with arm locks or chokes IMHO.
I appreciated the way the guy in the video remained calm in the face of "the verbals" but there was never any real intent in the assailant, so it made everything a bit easier.

[Kevin Leavitt]

We practice things like arm locks in training by setting up conditions that allow us to see the shape, form, and context. At first we will ask such questions as we try and synthesize practice with reality. Over time,if we train properly and long enough....things just start happening and we stop looking for things like using the arm bar. It just happens. We simply move and respond, as the situation develops, we do whatever seems logical....it could be an arm bar.

[Chris Parkerson]

I appreciate chokes, arm bars, toe holds (leg locks), and back vices.
But when in the street, I end up reverting to Hal's kata. It is simply genius.
It naturally creates
1) angles of cancellation agains counter attacks (especially knives)
2) relentlessly attacks the weakest part of the human body (infraspinatus and teres group (back of shoulder)
3) has an integrated system of moves that always puts you in control, no matter what the opponent does
4) is unique enough (non traditional) to confuse 90 percent of the trained fighters you may encounter.

I am sad he never really tried to take it on the seminar circuit beyon the old USJA tours he did. Judo folks deaf eared it to a large degree - but he proved it to be effective at the US nationals.

I have taught it to corporate security in the US and Mexico. I am 58 years old and seem to revert to it when young bucks test my skills. Putting Aiki into it makes it even better.

Kevin, the day we meet, we should take some time with it. The Marine DT guys at Miramar Naval Air Station loved it. I fear the kata will die out as Hal recourse and as I get feeble.

[Gorgeous George]

First off the guy was drunk and uncoordinated. the takedown was good but really dangerous if you don't know if the guy is armed. that's just my personal take on things, I don't want to go to the ground with the other guy even in a one on one, but them I'm 60 so perhaps that plays a role. i also train sometimes with dull blades and know how fast they can be accessed. Being on top of someone means controlling their hands at all times whilst ensuring they don't bite your face off!
Yes, chokes work but they are potential law suits and they can be misjudged especially with someone on drugs or very hyped up.
i'm reminded of something Paul Vunak once said upon being asked what was the most powerful technique he knew, "A Tai Chi throw", then after a pause, "in the direction of a moving car".
Situational awareness to me means using anything and everything as a weapon or a shield. In confined environments foot traps and bumps into the wall and tables resulting in sprains or contusions allowing for escape are preferable to tying yourself up with arm locks or chokes IMHO.
I appreciated the way the guy in the video remained calm in the face of "the verbals" but there was never any real intent in the assailant, so it made everything a bit easier.

From start to finish - takedown to unconsciousness - it was what?: three, four seconds?
While he's going from standing to the ground, he has no chance to pull a knife; when he's on the ground, and Ryan Hall is on his back, Ryan Hall has the ability and opportunity to control either his arms, or neck - hell: he could control all three, if he wanted/needed to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhezD_qn_8

...plus: even if he did have his arms free, is it really possible to pull a knife, and use it, when someone applies a rear naked choke - particularly one that puts you unconscious what: one, two seconds after application?
Being strangled tends to hamper your motor skills (and trying to pull a knife, rather than counter the strangle is tactically dubious, since you're interested in that aspect).

[Alec Corper]

Ok Graham, don't get your knickers in a twist :D, I wasn't knocking BJJ, i think it's great. You are quite right, it's hard to access a knife when falling. The first part of the vid showed the guy being held on the ground by gripping his wrists. the choke out came much later. if a guy gets you in a rear naked choke and knows what they are doing you are pretty well screwed, no argument. i simply expressed my responses to the idea of arm bars, and chokes for that matter, as mostly only feasible in one on one, unarmed combat. Emphasis on the word mostly. I know one thing there is nothing that works all of the time on everyone, there are loads of things that work some of the time on some of the people.

"Being strangled tends to hamper your motor skills (and trying to pull a knife, rather than counter the strangle is tactically dubious, since you're interested in that aspect)." True that, but if I had a blade i'd rather go for that than counter first. Of course, it's all a question of timing, position, leverage and awareness. Technique based thinking is a roulette game as far as I am concerned.
regards, Alec

[Belt_Up]

when someone applies a rear naked choke - particularly one that puts you unconscious what: one, two seconds after application?

It's more like 10-15 seconds.

[Walter Martindale]

It's more like 10-15 seconds.

Not if you know how to apply it properly.
Getting the choke on may take some time and effort, but if you're in there and crunch it on properly the guy's out pretty quickly.

[Belt_Up]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.

[Gorgeous George]

It's more like 10-15 seconds.

YouTube's video timer must be broken, then: it says that from the moment the guy in the video was grabbed, to the next time we see him (unconscious on the floor), took ten seconds - and as at least a few of those weren't spent choking him...

Also:

http://youtu.be/feHKjX5PaCo?t=1m2s

Seven seconds by my count - both times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSVHgReJnew&feature=related

Four seconds...?

[Gorgeous George]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83JR2IoI8k&ob=av3e

[Kevin Leavitt]

Lol....small world, I trained with Ryan back in Arlington. Awesome guy with great skills.

[Gorgeous George]

Lol....small world, I trained with Ryan back in Arlington. Awesome guy with great skills.

Lucky you.

I love the guy: his instructionals are excellent - really good insight; his deconstruction of techniques, and discussion of fundamental principles, is excellent.

[Walter Martindale]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.

The abstract doesn't really say who was doing the choking or how good they are at it. It's a fairly simple technique to apply. Tighten up around the neck and then "make a muscle" - flex all the muscles in the upper body - reduces the amount of space in the gap through which the person's neck (and, obviously, blood flow) are going.

The hard part is getting getting the choke on, to apply, and in a non-rules environment, not getting your eyes and other body parts gouged, bitten, stabbed, grabbed, etc., while you're trying to sink on a "hadaka jime".
In a rules-environment you can take all the time you want, within limits.

[Rob Watson]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.

Interested to see what effect increased adrenaline levels would have on these results.

Somewhat to Mr. Martindales query note that only 16 of 24 subject reached ocular fixation so whomever was putting on the vascular restriction was not good enough to get the desired results on all fully compliant subjects. I'd say that is trending on the lesser skilled side of the discussion.

[Belt_Up]

YouTube's video timer must be broken, then: it says that from the moment the guy in the video was grabbed, to the next time we see him (unconscious on the floor), took ten seconds - and as at least a few of those weren't spent choking him...

Also:

http://youtu.be/feHKjX5PaCo?t=1m2s

Seven seconds by my count - both times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSVHgReJnew&feature=related

Four seconds...?

You're putting individual cases up against an average. You do realise that doesn't really work? For every person who goes out quickly, there may be one who takes a while. Hence, you study lots of people.

I'm not saying it can't happen as quick as some say, I've just never seen (or felt) unconsciousness take effect in that very short space of time. I'm sure there's plenty of room for variance though.

Somewhat to Mr. Martindales query note that only 16 of 24 subject reached ocular fixation so whomever was putting on the vascular restriction was not good enough to get the desired results on all fully compliant subjects. I'd say that is trending on the lesser skilled side of the discussion.

It could be it was a skilled chap and some very tough subjects (though I doubt it, I've yet to see anyone unbothered by the VNR).

but there was never any real intent in the assailant

But there's no way to tell. Intent is internal. Only he knew what he was thinking. I thought Hall dropping him was well-judged and welll-executed.

[Chris Parkerson]

The abstract doesn't really say who was doing the choking or how good they are at it. It's a fairly simple technique to apply. Tighten up around the neck and then "make a muscle" - flex all the muscles in the upper body - reduces the amount of space in the gap through which the person's neck (and, obviously, blood flow) are going.

The hard part is getting getting the choke on, to apply, and in a non-rules environment, not getting your eyes and other body parts gouged, bitten, stabbed, grabbed, etc., while you're trying to sink on a "hadaka jime".
In a rules-environment you can take all the time you want, within limits.

Walter,

That seems to be the critical issue..... getting the choke on while not getting gouges by fingers (or knives). The issue is first "who is controlling who". If I have my structure, I may even turn the Hadaka Jime into a throw.

I must admit, the police chokes were taught with "safe" methods (only taking blood vessels) for many years and their ideas on stabilizing uke left much room for pivoting of the opponent's body as a defense and counter. The old dogma of "keeping your gunside back" (i.e. blading the body even while you are behind the opponent) skewed proper jujitsu positioning.

I am still convinced that the judo version of chokes is not sufficient. The best choke has the cutter bone of the wrist come up under the coracoid process. It takes air, blood and separates the cervicle vertebrae.

Even using this military version of the choke, one must create kuzushi (position before submission) or the technique can be turned.

I trained both hard and soft neck strengthening techniques. Neck bridges were a good part of that. Just as important were internal forms of exhaling and the consistent stretching of the fascial tissue around the throat as my partner grabbed my gi and pressed his fist laterally against my throat to the laft and then to the right..

I am still convinced that arm bars are superior methods against trained fighters and thus, all fighters. Arm bars are potentially "lethal frce" (just like chokes are). But the choke is lethal by definition. Only the Koppo is lethal in an arm bar. Lethal force being defined as killing or maiming.

When I get home from this tour I am doing, I will attach Hal's 2 on 1 grip basics onto this post. Hal had over 1,000 organized competitive bouths (Judo, AAU Wrestling and Sambo). Few people can make such a claim. He also used his strategy as a cop, as a PI and as a member of Operation 40 (CIA). His strategy on arm bars is genius.

[Alberto_Italiano]

in a recent revival of a old thread it was stated by a few people that the most effective technique in a fight is an arm lock. to start of a discussion about that i would like to ask 2 questions

1. when you are in a fight what is your goal? or to put it another way what is a win for you

2. What s the purpose of the arm lock? or at least what comes after?

The reason to emphasize the usage of armlocks (emphasized not only by me) relies on several reasons:

1) You have to imagine that your opponent knows how to fight (keep in mind I always have this evenience in mind, because everybody can beat a drunkard - but your real challenge and your real danger comes when you have to face a guy who knows the "business"...), and by knowing how to fight it means he has experience in competition matches like say MMA or boxing.
If you haven't that experience you won't stand a chance. If you have never faced before an MMA fighter or a boxeur, believe me it may be shocking - you may not even be able to hit him once and he will set the whole agenda...
His experience, rapidity of execution, mobility on feet and hips, brutal strength, ability to take away your maai (distance) with mere millimetric moves (you see an incoming punch and you make big movements to get away from it right? well, a boxer doesn't, he moves just for the few centimetres needed for the purpose!) are all factors (to quote just a few) that would simply startle you if you're used only to ukes in an average Aikido dojo. You risk of finding right then and there, for the first time in your life, that many of the techiniques that worked smoothly in your dojo are simply ineffectual against such an adversary. And then you will be game.

2) at this point, your goal is to make fighting impossibile and your ornly real option against such a foe is to produce an armlock.

3) Even if your opponent does not know how to fight, if you hit him or project him you risk of making him go into a coma, or even kill him - the accounts of guys dead for one punch (normally as a consequence of bumping their heads on concrete or corners while falling - and unexperienced guys have a tendency to fall with just one good punch, unfortunately) are endless on our newspapers and we also had a tragic account, recently, on these very same forums.
You then have to live with the (manifold) consequences of your unintended actions.

Please note that such unintended consequences may occur also with neck grabs.
No way they happen with an armlock instead...

4) Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.

ps if you are facing multiple adversaries, you've got a problem in a real situation.

I hope this helps.

[Alberto_Italiano]

Chokes and strangles are potentially "Deadly Force" in the force continuum. (...) . In such an opponent, rather than untrained ones, arm bars do have a higher combat efficiency value, from my and a few other's perspectives. Hal Von Luebbert actually did a study on this for the army back in the late 1950's. Arm locks (without the koppo) are both effective and compassionate in dealing with unruly folks.



Exactly.

[Chris Parkerson]

Alberto and others,

I have really enjoyed this thread, it's diversity, and the various paths they represent.

Your final point, albert:

4) Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.

For me, I tend to use kuzushi to take the armloch to the edge of a throw. I call it putting the fat mam on one toe at the edge of the diving board. Sensei Leydyard call this the "seam". Good enough.
This is where I simply become the conductor on the train. Unemotional and without getting
sidetracked by my own mental projections, I let my opponent decide what is next. I simply punch
his train ticket. He can go home (a pin and a talking-to is the path); he can go to the hospital ( koppo at the weak joint(s) right has you drop him of the diving board will to the trick) or he can go
to the next world (a small circled throw in which the pivot point I have offered him, simply
evaporates and his head crashes to the ground, likely breaking his neck) no escape like in Aikido
throws.


This is compassion, I give him the options and feel his answer and desire through my hands and hara.

[Walter Martindale]

Walter,

That seems to be the critical issue..... getting the choke on while not getting gouges by fingers (or knives). The issue is first "who is controlling who". If I have my structure, I may even turn the Hadaka Jime into a throw.

(snip)


That's the main thing - do you have enough control to apply a choke? Do you have time? Do you have freedom (only one opponent) to apply a choke? Are you sure?
I've recounted this previously - a Canadian national team (retired) judoka got into an argument with another person at a bar in western Canada (pre 1990). Argument went to the street, judoka threw opponent to the ground and was applying some form of juji-jime to him (possibly nami, gyaku, or whatever - doesn't really matter, does it?) when opponent's friend pushed a knife through and through the judoka's chest. This, of course, ended the fight. The judoka somehow survived as the knife missed heart, aorta, vena cava, pulmonary veins and arteries, and spinal cord, but there was (AIUI) an extended stay in hospital. Don't know if a lung was punctured or not. I won't name the judoka.

You mentioned "cutter bone" - that's the radius. I believe you're talking about the one where you grip palm-to-palm with the radius across the throat, and pull like heck as if you're trying to take the guy's head off with your radius?

The way I was taught to do "rear naked choke" or "Police sleeper" or whatever is as was shown in those videos, above, but the idea was to get it on quite tight for starters, have the bottom hand grabbing your own biceps (of the other arm, obviously), have the top hand palm down on the back of the other's head, pushing downwards/forwards into the hold, hug very hard, and clench both biceps and all the forearm muscles hard. Makes for a very tightly held neck, high pressure inside the choke, and not a lot of room for blood flow. I've only rendered a few unconscious, but it took nowhere near 5 seconds if I had it on "right".
Severely out of training at present.
Cheers,
W

[Alberto_Italiano]

Alberto and others,

I have really enjoyed this thread, it's diversity, and the various paths they represent.

Your final point, albert:

4) Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.

For me, I tend to use kuzushi to take the armloch to the edge of a throw. I call it putting the fat mam on one to at the adge of the diving board. Sensei Leydyard call this the "seam". Good enough.

This is where I simply become the conductor on the train. Unemotional and without getting sidetracked by my own mental projections, I let my opponent decide what is next. I simply punch his train ticket. He can go home (a pin and a talking-to is the path); he can go to the hospital ( koppo right has you drop him of the diving board will to the trick) or he can go to the next world (a small circled throw in which the pivot point I have offered him, simply evaporates and his head crashes to the ground, likely breaking his neck) no escape like in Aikido throws.

This is compassion, I give him the options and feel his answer and desire through my hands and hara.

I couldn't agree more.
I am also not surprised that Leydyard, maybe my favourite "author" here :D, substantially concurred with that by what you report.

You also add an important element that I did not include, but that is vital: armlocks should be always armolock intended to finish with a potential projection (this was your point if I did not misunderstood it).
Very true! This is in fact exactly what I ahd in mind - we have a video in this thread where an armlock is produced however it was not nearly as effective as it could be: it was a "standing" armlock - whereas with a really good armlock, you ground him also. The armlocking guy was relying on wrist and elbow, whereas you also have a shoulder - it is pressure on the armpit/shoulder area what produces the grounding projection in my humble experience (grounding ex boxing partners).

You may also match an armlock and grounding with a nice nykkio: once armlocked on his knees, you may also nykkio his hand as you keep the armlock.

Indeed, if a person has experience, should never envision anything else but a compassionate solution - this suits better everybody, simply. The next world can wait, hopefully!

Of course, if we want to joke about what happens next, well he will probably also explain to you, as he is armlocked, what he thinks of your mummy daddy sisters brothers relatives and girlfriend... well you just ignore him, we believe in free speech here! :D

[Chris Parkerson]

hey guys,

I found a couple of short clips of Hal teaching the 2 on 1 grip to the geriatric crew plus one young marine DT instructor. The dojo is Parker Linekin's Academy of the Maqrtial Arts in Mira Mesa, CA (2005).

Here is the 2 on 1 grip with foot sweep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS8VoXo_EV4

and another with an ikkyo-style arm bar much like what was posted earlier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cAcrYVCE8Y&feature=relmfu

and a clip where Parker Linekin and I are "rolling" with a series of grips and counter grips demonstrating how to get into the 2 on 1 grip from a traditional attack. Notice that we never allow a full 2 on 1 grip as we are assisting each other to become fluid in transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmwdrRs3vp0

[Chris Parkerson]

Just another note,

here are a few front throws (small circle) performed off the 2 on 1 grip using a lighter Aiki style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzpw13tuFkM

Incidentally, all videos I do of myself are unrehearsed and executed from a cold, clean barrel. No need for perfect posturing, I own what I do in the moment and learn from the recording.

So, no peeps from the peanut gallery.

[Alberto_Italiano]

My main concern has always been that of being able to place an armlock that is immediate & effective against a guy who is throwing unceasing punches at me.

In a situation that is so dynamic and so dangerous as the above mentioned it does not come easy to place complex armlocks (well, complex for me!) like for instance those meant to end with a shiho nage.

Knowing the rapidity with which a skilled puncher may repeatedly hit you, I have the following concerns:

1) I must be able to place the armlock as soon as possible
2) I must first protect myself from that tempest - thus I must shield myself (hands at face height or close enough to be there in a lightening, to shield me), dodge (move away laterally from incoming stuff), parry (try to brush it aside also as you dodge) and move lateral (try to go lateral to that arm): that is use the whole arsenal to avoid that incoming stuff at your face!
3) I must be able to produce an armlock that can be placed also on a rechambered arm because odds are that I will find it rechambered, for a skilled puncher can be very very fast (an instance of one of the fastest speeds ever reached: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URyaqxK-1fI - and if he is that fast and that unceasing, you're done - armlock or not. There is no armlock, no knife, no bottle, no chain that you can stop him with, because he sets the whole agenda then - you need a gun. Btw also a very enjoyable and instructive video, worth your time)

Perhaps with that video you may also understand why I say that you won't iriminage that type of guys... no "Mune Tsuki Waza" with those guys, you won't do to them this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CKSFryR7I ...
Clinch, try to go lateral, and try grab one of their arms - you won't stand a chance for any other technique if you're attacked about so hard.

To date, the only armlock that I (me, maybe others are better than me - that's not difficult lol) have been able to place in the given situation is the one seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5woFlsJq-tQ (move right away at minute 7.45 till minute 8.10 all the rest is irrelevant don't waste your time. I have looked several times for that armlock on youtube but never found one, maybe I was looking in the wrong places though!)

It is regrettable that I cannot produce a video with an uke rather than with domestic makeshift kata devices. However that type of armlock, at least in my case, has worked in all the occasions I managed to go lateral, without exceptions, and perhaps most significantly it has worked on rechambered arms too.

True, my partners weren't near so fast like in the first video, but with that speed as said you won't even place an armlock. You need a Glock.

Well, just to add my two cents to the armlocks parade.

[Chris Parkerson]

My main concern has always been that of being able to place an armlock that is immediate & effective against a guy who is throwing unceasing punches at me.

Knowing the rapidity with which a skilled puncher may repeatedly hit you, I have the following concerns:

1) I must be able to place the armlock as soon as possible
2) I must first protect myself from that tempest - thus I must shield myself (hands at face height or close enough to be there in a lightening, to shield me), dodge (move away laterally from incoming stuff), parry (try to brush it aside also as you dodge) and move lateral (try to go lateral to that arm): that is use the whole arsenal to avoid that incoming stuff at your face!
3) I must be able to produce an armlock that can be placed also on a rechambered arm because odds are that I will find it rechambered, for a skilled puncher can be very very fast (an instance of one of the fastest speeds ever reached: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URyaqxK-1fI - and if he is that fast and that unceasing, you're done - armlock or not. There is no armlock, no knife, no bottle, no chain that you can stop him with, because he sets the whole agenda then - you need a gun. Btw also a very enjoyable and instructive video, worth your time)

Perhaps with that video you may also understand why I say that you won't iriminage that type of guys... no "Mune Tsuki Waza" with those guys, you won't do to them this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CKSFryR7I ...
Clinch, try to go lateral, and try grab one of their arms - you won't stand a chance for any other technique if you're attacked about so hard.

To date, the only armlock that I (me, maybe others are better than me - that's not difficult lol) have been able to place in the given situation is the one seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5woFlsJq-tQ (move right away at minute 7.45 till minute 8.10 all the rest is irrelevant don't waste your time. I have looked several times for that armlock on youtube but never found one, maybe I was looking in the wrong places though!)
.

In my own experience, it is not necessary (1) to get the arm lock ASAP. I would fine tune the idea as being get positioning ASAP. You can sneak an armlock on someone rather subtly. In this video, I place a sumi otoshi on a boxer's punch using the old adage that a fist moves rally fast, but the elbow moves slower and tghe shoulder moves slower still. In these following two clips, I am suing a sumi otoshi and heaven and earth throws to complete the process. Notice how i am using Leydyard's ideas on the Ikkyo curve to throw at most any point. Yes, I am always headed for the 2 on 1 grip if the throw doesn't happen quickly. It is simply the best place to fight from. It cancells out the other person's weapons better than other frontal positions do.Arm bars are great to collect as the opponent is falling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD5eGWmmNcg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Thy_ud1H8U

I would also differ with the Aikido clip you provided. The teacher is going yin on both sides of the punch (retreating) as he places his feathering block behind the attacking arm. I have had more success with going yang on the outside and yin on the inside. This gives me an effective tenkan (Baqua step attack that places my center of gravity right behind the "conjunction point" of the attacker.

My tenkan can be small as I am getting clocked (worst caqse scenario) or it can be larger as I blend as the punch is coming towards me and I use my arms to assist in the evasion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QdUsGvJxCU

[Andrew Macdonald]

You have to imagine that your opponent knows how to fight (keep in mind I always have this evenience in mind, because everybody can beat a drunkard - but your real challenge and your real danger comes when you have to face a guy who knows the "business"...), and by knowing how to fight it means he has experience in competition matches like say MMA or boxing

with respect I have to disagree with this, just becasue someone knows how to fight doesn't mean they are formaly trained in anything, I know lots of effective street fighters who have just been fighting for a good part of thier life without taking any lessons

If you haven't that experience you won't stand a chance. If you have never faced before an MMA fighter or a boxeur, believe me it may be shocking - you may not even be able to hit him once and he will set the whole agenda...


yes this is very ture, if you haven't ever pressure tested your style, you will be woefully under prepared to deal with anything, whether it is some one facing off and then attacking or ambushing

His experience, rapidity of execution, mobility on feet and hips, brutal strength, ability to take away your maai (distance) with mere millimetric moves (you see an incoming punch and you make big movements to get away from it right? well, a boxer doesn't, he moves just for the few centimetres needed for the purpose!) are all factors (to quote just a few) that would simply startle you if you're used only to ukes in an average Aikido dojo. You risk of finding right then and there, for the first time in your life, that many of the techiniques that worked smoothly in your dojo are simply ineffectual against such an adversary. And then you will be game.



No, I don;t make big movements to avoid a punch it is not only boxing that teaches this but many arts and just through experience of fighting you learn not to make big movements. this also assumes that the boxer will be doing pure boxing, he will feel the adreneline dump well in afight, becasue it is not a sports match where he knew in advance and was training for it and prapring for possiblly months. not saying that his boxing won;t come through in some way but it will be very different to what he does in the ring.

at this point, your goal is to make fighting impossibile and your ornly real option against such a foe is to produce an armlock.


no my goal is to escape, an armlock keeps me in the fight,

Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.



Again with the idea to escape a fight, keeping some on on the ground until the cool off has no pupose, and i have seen people in such a situation where the guy apparently cooled off the stood up and knocked 7 bells out of the other fella. if you r armlock is also based on pain compliance, drugs, alchol and even adrenline can increase a persons pain tolernace considerably.holding a fella down until other arrive might seem like a good idea but you are then gambling that the people who arrive first will be security and not other looking for a fight.

if you are facing multiple adversaries, you've got a problem in a real situation

where i am from facing multiples is the norm, and you have to train for that, moving and escaping. I do not really care about being the most skilled fighter in my street or town,but just about surviving.

I have heard many accounts of people using Armlock but their purpose was different to mine, and it wasn't even in a real serious situation.

There are of course maybe exceptional skilled people int he world that can pull off armlocks to anyone, but i am not one of them.

[Gorgeous George]

I think this sums up why I think a joint lock is inferior to a choke (strangle) that puts somebody unconscious:

http://youtu.be/FUYwlxHjkMA?t=1m10s

[Alberto_Italiano]

with respect I have to disagree with this, just becasue someone knows how to fight doesn't mean they are formaly trained in anything, I know lots of effective street fighters who have just been fighting for a good part of thier life without taking any lessons

yes this is very ture, if you haven't ever pressure tested your style, you will be woefully under prepared to deal with anything, whether it is some one facing off and then attacking or ambushing

No, I don;t make big movements to avoid a punch it is not only boxing that teaches this but many arts and just through experience of fighting you learn not to make big movements. this also assumes that the boxer will be doing pure boxing, he will feel the adreneline dump well in afight, becasue it is not a sports match where he knew in advance and was training for it and prapring for possiblly months. not saying that his boxing won;t come through in some way but it will be very different to what he does in the ring.

no my goal is to escape, an armlock keeps me in the fight,

Again with the idea to escape a fight, keeping some on on the ground until the cool off has no pupose, and i have seen people in such a situation where the guy apparently cooled off the stood up and knocked 7 bells out of the other fella. if you r armlock is also based on pain compliance, drugs, alchol and even adrenline can increase a persons pain tolernace considerably.holding a fella down until other arrive might seem like a good idea but you are then gambling that the people who arrive first will be security and not other looking for a fight.

where i am from facing multiples is the norm, and you have to train for that, moving and escaping. I do not really care about being the most skilled fighter in my street or town,but just about surviving.

I have heard many accounts of people using Armlock but their purpose was different to mine, and it wasn't even in a real serious situation.

There are of course maybe exceptional skilled people int he world that can pull off armlocks to anyone, but i am not one of them.

Yes you are stating true points, however what should be kept in mind when writing on forums is that your counterpart cannot always write a treatise in order to cover all possibile points (I already make consierable efforts, but fundamentally you cannot always cover or imagine any possibile given observation or exception). Some times what we say is true regardless of the fact we omitted details. I think you agree.

So, it is true that you don't need a formal training in order to fight - however, you do need an intensive training in that, no matter then if you have made it in an MMA gym or in a boxing gym or in the street with gang buddies... When I emphasize the MMA o boxing thing what is implied, and the reason they are mentoned, is that:
1) you do need to spar intensively and frequently
2) you need to spar with guys who really want to incapacitate you (no "demonstrations"...)

This is the department where, unfortunately, aikido is more lacking.

As for the wide movements, all martial arts teach and advocate not making big movements to avoid punches or incoming hits, inclusive of Aikido. So I am not surprised that you have been taught so.
My point is: if a guy is taught so, but never practices intensively, those millimetric movements won't simply come out of him when necessary - he will get easily scared by a wide variety of factors, and he will find himself making huge movements all the same that, actually, will expose him even further (a skilled fighter will pursue you in no time, no matter how ample your supposedly evading movements are).
So, i guess we agree here also (not that I have problems with disagreements, I only stress that many details are details I may have not covered, and yet i am aware of them).

Let me add however that this idea that an MMA training or boxing training would not work well in a "real" fight is an idea that can be entertained only as long as one has not been in both.
The type of, let me say, terrific skills that you learn with daily sparring are such that it is totally irrelevant whether a guy in a "real" situation produces a chain, a bottle, or even a knife: your ability to hit repeatedly and at an incredibly fast pace, of moving out of the line instantly and keep hitting from the side, of dancing around, are such skills that will pose you in a position to set the whole agenda.
I have been faced 3 times with a bottle in my life (once not even long ago, but i am referring here to 25 years ago when I sparred regularly) and let me assure you not only those bottles where useless, but I knew they were - I even said to one of them before we started "that won't help you". They did not even get a chance to lift their arm! That's how fast and effective you can be if you keep sparring regularly.

If a skilled puncher engages you, then you're engaged. The shower of punches that will reach one's face in a few seconds from so many different routes is such that you simply have no time for anything else but taking it - you won't reach out for bottles, you won't even have time to think about the knife you have in your pocket (aside from the fact the time I saw a guy putting his hand in his back pocket I knew what he was looking for - you just invest him with even greater ease with your straights, his hand will "die" in his pocket - besides the way you are trained to move out of the line and reengage from another angle immediately is such that even a knife would pose no problem, imagining here a guy who relies on mild abilities with a knife).

instead longer blades or sticks can be a problem, like multiple adversaries. I knew as a fact I could manage at most two also if it never happened to me to be faced by two and fight.

So, definitely, being used to spar makes the difference also in "real" situations. I have seen (not involved) persons hit by a chain. What cause the chain to be successful was that the person was scared to death in merely seeing it. Instead it is trivial to avoid a chain hit: as soon as he is posed to swing his arm, you just make a relatively big step forward, you take completely away from him the distance and you say "goodnight" just in front of his nose...

I also agree that keeping a person armlocked in the hope he cools off is not bound to work in all situations, exactly for the reasons you mention.
However, if you don't want to risk killing guys (with all the entailed consequences) like your default option, armlocking and giving to him the opportunity to cool off is a good idea nonetheless. Eventually, you can always cause significant damage to his arm or wrist by adding manipulation with blunt force on the joints, enough to make it unusable, and being so also assured it was no use of lethal force.

[Alberto_Italiano]

ps should I add that, perhaps unsurprisingly, I always stated that fights are a very dangerous business and that you should preferaby avoid all of them even at the cost of not intervening in the problems of the others (such as a "nagged" lady or so) or of being "punked"?

Most fatal damages are a consequence of persons that, since they have never been in a fight and are fundamentally untrained for the "real" thing, entertain somewhat romantic ideas about it - so they get into the line of fire and at times they are lucky and go to the pub and tell all their buddies how their wondrous first or second punch solved the situation or how they placed a sankyo on that pathetic idiot who, untrained as them, engaged them while on tequila - which ignites a vicious circle where they get even more ingrained into the fundamentally fictional idea of a "fight" that they entertained, and on their ability to deal with it, which poses them in the situation of crossing again and again the line of fire even when not necessary at all.

Other times, unfortunately, they aren't so lucky and at times they cannot even tell.

[Chris Parkerson]

In Hal Von Luebbert's book "Fight Strength" he begins with a story where five guys in a back alley assault him with sticks and chains. After two great Osoto's and an ICBM mata, he pulls a 2nd Ichihara mata on a man with a chain. As Hal lands on top of him, he feels a ripping pain in his gut.
He wonders if he has been shot but has no time to assess it.

He rises and charges the final opponent. The bad guy's eyes are bulging out of their sockets. The man turns and runs away. Hal stops for a second and feels something warm and wet on his chest. He assesses. It was puke. He was charging the final guy while spewing vomit like a berserker.... that what happens when a chain wraps around and slaps your groin.

Just a cool story. Having lived with Hal for a few months and been his training partner for a year, I can attest that his training methods were an attempt at daily suicide. Gottaluvit.

[Alberto_Italiano]

In Hal Von Luebbert's book "Fight Strength" he begins with a story where five guys in a back alley assault him with sticks and chains. After two great Osoto's and an ICBM mata, he pulls a 2nd Ichihara mata on a man with a chain. As Hal lands on top of him, he feels a ripping pain in his gut.
He wonders if he has been shot but has no time to assess it.

He rises and charges the final opponent. The bad guy's eyes are bulging out of their sockets. The man turns and runs away. Hal stops for a second and feels something warm and wet on his chest. He assesses. It was puke. He was charging the final guy while spewing vomit like a berserker.... that what happens when a chain wraps around and slaps your groin.

Just a cool story. Having lived with Hal for a few months and been his training partner for a year, I can attest that his training methods were an attempt at daily suicide. Gottaluvit.

Yes Chirs.
I am truly enjoying this thread as well, as you said earlier.

I have been told gruesome reports of boxers that were able to deal with, well, 12 guys... I have no idea whether that's possibile at all. I can envision a situation like an Eastwood movie or a Seagal movie where one highly trained individual may cope with several untrained ones.

But, personally, I knew as a fact, with no need to have been there, that above 2 guys would have been a big problem for me even in my heydays (loooong ago lol).

The story that you report is a good combination of both perspectives: if you're well trained you can deal also with many, yet at the same time it is, as said, a very dangerous business where your life can vanish at any moment, as in Luebbert's case was about to happen.

This aside from the concern you may badly hurt someone's else. At first one may think it's cool, but indeed it will develop over time as a regret that may daunt you your whole life. I am fortunate that I have only minor regrets in this department and I hope i will never be faced with any situation ever again where anything may occur. Thinking that some persons may have to live with the idea of having unwillingly killed somebody with a punch makes me understand, with a degree of certainty, that it's definitely a memory I would prefer to live without.

Some persons are surprised that, if you had a fighting training, then you eventually avoid fighting. Indeed, there are persons who are trained and keep looking for troubles, but that's pyschopathy you know... A well trained person feels less urges actually, and not more, to get into a fight. Indeed, with the growth of self confidence derived from actual sparring, decreases any need to test one's abilities.

I always remember that story once I read of a heavyweight that at a social gathering was repeatedly and heavily insulted by a guy and yet kept answering gently. Once asked, after that, why he did not react to so much abuse he answered: "once you have been an holder of the WBA belt, you can afford being kind."

[Chris Parkerson]

I am also of the "kind" variety, even though I run a bodyguard company. So is Hal, even though the US Government made war on him for 30 years, taking everything he owned, attempting to kill him several times, and otherwise harassing him. He carries the knife wounds and bullet holes as souvenires. That is partly why we hooked up. I was fully intrigued by his life and story.

Here was a guy that decided not to kill Castro, came in from the cold, and negotiated a settlement to get out of a type of trade that really doesn't allow for retirement - especially for folks that failed to fulfill their directives.

Now, that is a whole different set of parameters than being a street bully or local tough guy. While I trained with him in the 1990's, he was hit twice by vehicles while riding his bike in Corpus Christi. After being struck, the car load (once it was a van load) of guys exited their vehicle and proceeded to beat him up. In neither case was anyone arrested. His Camper was burglarized - only certain documents were taken. Again, no arrests. And finally, while training at a small dojo, a man walks in wanting to rondori. He literally tries to kill Hal (I wasn't there but was told about it 3 days later) several times. Hal stopped the attacks each time and continued to play by judo rules. After the bout, Hal sensed that the man had a gun in his gear. Hal disappeared, hid, watched the guy exit the dojo, and slept in a field for two days.

Such is the price for forging a path less followed. Indeed, I am currently in Houston and intend to visit this old buddy on Saturday. Cold eyed and kind sums him up. What an anomaly. And master of the arm bar.

[Chris Parkerson]

For all you BJJ fans,

Here is the 21 grip (2 on 1 grip) strategy from a modified guard. Armbars and grapevine included.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYgOJkxvVdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhWGOIz4nFk

[Edgecrusher]

They are great equalizers Armbars (Arm Locks). It is hard to say how anyone would react in an altercation or even better anticipate how one would be attacked. If available an armbar would get anyone to submit, depending on the situation and if I feared for my life then I would see how far his arm would bend in the opposite direction. Most likely, it would be useless in a multiple attack. If strictly one on one, I would work to get a choke in there.

Does anyone ever "win" in a fight? I suppose victory is in the eye of the beholder.

[Chris Parkerson]

I think winning is about not getting hurt. Time is your enemy on this front. The longer the fight, the higher probability for injury.

Regarding arm bar. The best way I have seen to train against them is
(1) play for positioning. Positioning trumps all technique.

(2) train the arm. Chain driven weight machines are best. On the old nautilus curl machine, for instance, determine your maximum weight. That means you get muscle failure with one successful curl.
Then notch it down to 40% - especially if you haven't built a weight training foundation. You may want to begin with less. This training can be dangerous as it replicates the execution of a real arm bar upon yourself. It can also make you a bit tight, so get plenty of amino acids and do your yoga.

As you curl the weight up, drop your hands faster than the weights fall, catch them as they fall, and literally throw them back up again. This only works on chain driven machines. Cable machines and some belt machineswill go off track or bust the pulley.

You are training the fast twitch muscles to become instinctually explosive. And, yes, this is in Hal's book on Fight Strength. As I said, his training regimen was a daily attempt at committing suicide.

But, that which does not kill you, makes you stronger. It works.

[DH]

I think winning is about not getting hurt. Time is your enemy on this front. The longer the fight, the higher probability for injury.

Regarding arm bar. The best way I have seen to train against them is
(1) play for positioning. Positioning trumps all technique.

(2) train the arm. Chain driven weight machines are best. On the old nautilus curl machine, for instance, determine your maximum weight. That means you get muscle failure with one successful curl.
Then notch it down to 40% - especially if you haven't built a weight training foundation. You may want to begin with less. This training can be dangerous as it replicates the execution of a real arm bar upon yourself. It can also make you a bit tight, so get plenty of amino acids and do your yoga.

As you curl the weight up, drop your hands faster than the weights fall, catch them as they fall, and literally throw them back up again. This only works on chain driven machines. Cable machines and some belt machineswill go off track or bust the pulley.

You are training the fast twitch muscles to become instinctually explosive. And, yes, this is in Hal's book on Fight Strength. As I said, his training regimen was a daily attempt at committing suicide.

But, that which does not kill you, makes you stronger. It works.
This is about the worst advice I have ever heard. Lifting will isolate and stiffen the arm and actually make you easier to lock.
"Tight makes light.....
And easy to fight...."

The way to train the limbs is to connect them to the center. It is the ONLY acceptable method for high level power and skill. Oddly I have rarely seen or met teachers capable of it, and those who can teach (past ridiculous one liners) .....rarer still.
Dan

[Chris Parkerson]

Hi Dan,

I agree that one must keep the six harmonies intact. Posture and connection is indeed the foundation to all efficient movement.
But it is hard to debate a guy who proved his theories through Judo competition like Hal did. His guns weren't more than 18 " and his weight is and has most always been 165 pounds. Yet, I do not think he ever lost to a juji after the 1970's. He could do isolated dumbbell curls with 100 pounds and did his balistic nautilus curl practice with 100 and more when we trained together.

His theories were about speed-strength. In his mind, he was a quarter horse outmaneuvering Clydesdales. So consider this, you've got position for juji, right as his arm begins to straighten, Hal instinctively could delay the isolation of his arm, use this speed strength to blast his whole body (unified) through your leg position, using (stealing) the force of your own Juji positioning against you.

That was his main tactic when attacked by juji. He entered rather than retreated. He used your energy against you. When he was coaching with Phil Porter at the USJA in Colorado Springs, people pooh poohed his training saying , " aw, that's Hal's stuff". Yet he was might hard to beat.

His record speaks for itself.

[Chris Parkerson]

An interesting overview of Fight Strength.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Fight_Strength.html?id=MAAlAAAACAAJ

[DH]

Hi Dan,

I agree that one must keep the six harmonies intact. Posture and connection is indeed the foundation to all efficient movement.
But it is hard to debate a guy who proved his theories through Judo competition like Hal did. His guns weren't more than 18 " and his weight is and has most always been 165 pounds. Yet, I do not think he ever lost to a juji after the 1970's. He could do isolated dumbbell curls with 100 pounds and did his balistic nautilus curl practice with 100 and more when we trained together.

His theories were about speed-strength. In his mind, he was a quarter horse outmaneuvering Clydesdales. So consider this, you've got position for juji, right as his arm begins to straighten, Hal instinctively could delay the isolation of his arm, use this speed strength to blast his whole body (unified) through your leg position, using (stealing) the force of your own Juji positioning against you.

That was his main tactic when attacked by juji. He entered rather than retreated. He used your energy against you. When he was coaching with Phil Porter at the USJA in Colorado Springs, people pooh poohed his training saying , " aw, that's Hal's stuff". Yet he was might hard to beat.

His record speaks for itself.
Hello Chris
His record doesn't speak for itself. In a way, no one's fight record does. All a fight recrd does is prove you can fight.
Think of it this way;
Plenty of boxers can "outbox" other guys...you can't use that fight record to say they had a knockout punch.
Plenty of jujutsu guys can out maneuver others....it's doesn't mean they have internal power
And your fella could have a great fight record it doesn't mean his method should be anyone's goal in the martial arts.
Part of the problem we all share is we lack good information and in order to make things work, we opt for modern interpretations as the correct model for the older arts we don't understand. The power and skill of small men over large men (repeated so often in the arts that in itself has become boring) is the legendary power every artists should be after. Every westerner I have ever met simply doesn't have clue how to put that model together and to good use.
Cheers
Dan

[Chris Parkerson]

Dan,
I agree with you that external training methods cannot replace internal ones. And I fully respect what you bring to the table and honor your willingness to offer it to others.

I also personally regret not maintaining a "middle way" within the history of my own training regimen. In 2003, as a way of fully delving into the Koryu I train in, I walked away from weight training. Our method is about fully relaxing in order for the elemental forces of (1)gravity, (2) centrifugal, (3) centripetal (4) and friction can be expressed without the body getting in the way.

Leaving my weight training was a big move for me as I began going to gyms holding my father's coat tail in 1961. Through college, I managed gyms. I will be the first to admit that beefing up and body sculpting the beef is the kiss of death if you are looking for flexibility, mobility, long-term health and general mobility in your autumn days on earth.

I am now in my late 50’s and have a return of many old injuries (Biceps tendons, Low back, knee strains, elbow strains, his tightness, etc.). I suspect I would not have these troubles had I kept up with my general resistance training program.

I have often wondered why many of the old koryu folks are happy being gardeners and doing other physical labor professions. I suspect that they found a big secret… Nothing can replace a good ole sweat using light and repetitive resistance. Perhaps I should be kayaking more and working less. 

As this string is about arm bars, Hal’s experience and strategy, I felt, needed to be mentioned. He is in his 70’s and still in the epitome of health and quite active. Below is a photo of Hal in 2010 doing his grip exercises with 80 pounds of weight. His grip is deadly and his speed, well, he developed the “mongoose tactic” which was a military theory of speed and overwhelming force when dealing with hostage taking and counter-insurgency fighting. He is still fast a lightening.

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/20120092/Album

Here is a photo of his basic positioning and posture when he was teaching the American Sheriff’s Association his system in the 1990’s.

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/2137512/Album

I know Hal is an “old school” guy in the world of martial arts. But his training was not about the arts as much as it was about training to survive violence and live a long healthy life. He has done this with verve.

Hal’s method was developed from the well-respected and standardized nautilus training method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_intensity_training

But he took it to the extreme. He did not do slow smooth workouts based on form. He used explosive movements that began at the base of his feet and fully utilized his core strength (in unison) with the area the machine was targeting. Isolation of muscles was for the Clydesdales and Chippendales “Hollywood” body builders.

One final thing about Hal’s work-out… He literally hates air conditioned gyms that were littered with people who were not serious about their training. He demanded a serious sweat and a maximum stress upon his heart rate. He pushed his body as if it were in an anaerobic Judo fight for 28 minutes. Then it was over and we took our final heart rate and BP data. His workout was specifically designed around the movements he needed to accomplish his 21 grip kata during Judo rondori and street encounters. We would then walk it off and wait a while before we sat or ate anything. Breathing and centering exercises were critical at this time.

Me, I am challenged by heredity (a weak and imbalanced physical structure) yet keep on trucking. My last competition was in Tai Chi at the Arnold Classic in 2009. Below, I am getting “lucky” against Timothy Hwang (yes, he’s national class and 30 years younger). You can see my form also pushing hands against his father Dr. Shie Ming Hwang below as well.

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/20119628/Album

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/20119629/Album

Cheers

And I do hope you welcome me and Moe to your seminar this August.

Chris

[Alberto_Italiano]

I like this thread.

I understand what Dan says, weight lifting (what we call body-building, although under that label goes too much stuff) may produce stiffness depending on how you do it and how frequently.

However an athletical preparation is needed in all sports (aikidokas should go running or also do some weight lifting if they enjoy it, or rope skipping which is great to make you jump like a cricket :D ) - consider 100mt runners, those shoulders many have are not strictly necessary for running, and yet they train legs and arms regularly with weights and although their legs are supposed to be ultrafast, they do squats with incredbly heavy loads that, arguably, should have slowed them down. http://jasonferruggia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/eliminatincardio1.jpg

If you make weight lifting together with other athletical preparations, more aerobic oriented, they won't really make you physically starchy. Of course it also depends on how much you maximize weight when you lift - you can maximize weight or repetitions, or better a combination of both.

By and large it does not rally matter what you practice, as long as there is an atlethical intensity that produces improved cenesthesis («the combination of organic sensations that comprise an individual's awareness of bodily existence»). Being aware of your body in motion is important, improves your performance and preparedness for all scenarios (well, at least physically) and induces a feeling of physical wellness that is bound to be helpful.

Whatever atlethical preparation you may get, transfers its benefits to whatever sport you practice, inclusive of aikido.

A trivial example: a speed bag. You may hit it while holding in your grip half or 1 whole kilo. After half an hour of that you won't be less fast, on the contrary you will be ultrafast.

Weight lifting, if practiced intensively having another goal in mind, and consequently matched with other preparations, won't stiffen you - but Dan is right insomuch as if you practice weight lifting having in mind only weight lifitng, well then it will slow you down because you're implementing a work out that does not take rapidity into account (arguably, a bodybuilder who goes in competitions does not need that and so does not care).

ps does not need or needs not? English lessons :D

[Alberto_Italiano]

I am also of the "kind" variety, even though I run a bodyguard company.

That's what makes you "kind" - you're keenly aware of all the professional implications of dealing with physical force in an unconsiderate manner.
We're on the same line: the guys who imagine fighting pleasurable are only those who have never been there seriously engaged (again as said, psychopaths excluded... those are drawn by their derangend mind and there is nothing you can do, you just have to keep fighting them again at all times).

Once you have been engaged once in your life by a competent fighter, and you quit having brawls with untrained individuals or trained individuals who however have no consistent experience with fighting, all your ideas of how cool fighting around could be vanish instantly.

What makes a responsibile fighter is a memorable beating - taking it, that is :D

[hughrbeyer]

Below, I am getting “lucky” against Timothy Hwang (yes, he’s national class and 30 years younger). You can see my form also pushing hands against his father Dr. Shie Ming Hwang below as well.

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/20119628/Album

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/20119629/Album


I think you need to ask myspace to pretty please give you a URL that works when you aren't logged in.

[Chris Parkerson]

I fully agree Alberto. I really do not scare too easily. But there have been two guys I have met
that literally gave me the buggers. One was Hal (former Operation 40) and the other was Sonny Puzikas (former Spetznaz). I met Sonny on a project when I hired him as a contractor a couple of years ago. This was before he got famous appearing "Deadliest Warrior" series. I was in awe at his energetics and quiet professionalism. He reminded me of Hal. Then I see him totally out psyche the Green Beret guys on the tactical night shoot. LoL.

Check out his site at http://www.gospelofviolence.com/systema.html
It has a few video clips.

If you want to read 4 pages of nastiness, I leave you with this little story of the 5th time Hal got hit by a vehicle while being a pedestrian. It is truly eye opening as he employed his 2 on 1 grip strategy from the gropund after being bounced by the van and going airborne for 61 feet. With broken ribs, a torn up back, ankles out of socket and a skull crush, his presence of mind and tactics were what he trained and that which saved him from a very bad beating from two bad guys that exited the van. The mind truly is the greatest weapon. An arm-bar saved him. Ha! See pages 272-275 below. If you read any of his primal scream ranting that is near those pages, just understand, he had put up with such attacks for several years. That kind of Jason Bourne experience really takes its toll. I hung out with him in those days and my own cognitive dissonance about it all took some time to dissolve.

thttp://www.scribd.com/Xlibris/d/38661731-Letters-to-Aaron-The-Hal-Luebbert-Story

Both of these guys are very polite and kind. But their understanding of violence is impeccable.

[Chris Parkerson]

I think you need to ask myspace to pretty please give you a URL that works when you aren't logged in.

I am a bit luddite. How do you best post pix? Facebook? My Space? How do you allow access?

[DH]

I like this thread.

I understand what Dan says, weight lifting (what we call body-building, although under that label goes too much stuff) may produce stiffness depending on how you do it and how frequently.

However an athletical preparation is needed in all sports (aikidokas should go running or also do some weight lifting if they enjoy it, or rope skipping which is great to make you jump like a cricket :D ) - consider 100mt runners, those shoulders many have are not strictly necessary for running, and yet they train legs and arms regularly with weights and although their legs are supposed to be ultrafast, they do squats with incredbly heavy loads that, arguably, should have slowed them down.

If you make weight lifting together with other athletical preparations, more aerobic oriented, they won't really make you physically starchy. Of course it also depends on how much you maximize weight when you lift - you can maximize weight or repetitions, or better a combination of both.

By and large it does not rally matter what you practice, as long as there is an atlethical intensity that produces improved cenesthesis («the combination of organic sensations that comprise an individual's awareness of bodily existence»). Being aware of your body in motion is important, improves your performance and preparedness for all scenarios (well, at least physically) and induces a feeling of physical wellness that is bound to be helpful.

Whatever atlethical preparation you may get, transfers its benefits to whatever sport you practice, inclusive of aikido.

A trivial example: a speed bag. You may hit it while holding in your grip half or 1 whole kilo. After half an hour of that you won't be less fast, on the contrary you will be ultrafast.

Weight lifting, if practiced intensively having another goal in mind, and consequently matched with other preparations, won't stiffen you - but Dan is right insomuch as if you practice weight lifting having in mind only weight lifitng, well then it will slow you down because you're implementing a work out that does not take rapidity into account (arguably, a bodybuilder who goes in competitions does not need that and so does not care).

ps does not need or needs not? English lessons :D
All due respect I am not willing to debate or argue with you over this. You and Chris are simply wrong. Lifting ...with appropriate stretching will still change your body in a negative way for martial arts. I have lost track of big muscular guys getting tuned by smaller guys, and not just by waza. You can see it in *good* soft jujutsu, you can see it in internals, you can see it in *good* judo.

Frankly, I dismiss the lifting argument out of hand. It is just such a low level understanding of combatives. Yet every few years someone starts it all up again and thinks some new fangled western science approach to training is the ticket. :rolleyes:
There are any number of *real* engineers, amateur engineers, sport guys and bodyworkers, pushing "the science" of martial movement and any number of speed training and strength training paradigms(and now with great hubris and total lack of skill they have applied their banter to internals) with followers on various forums who turn out to feel and move just like every other Tom, Dick and Harry.
I have no interest or time for debating it on the internet anymore-I just wanted to state my opinion.
Cheers
Dan

[Chris Parkerson]

I honor your position Dan.
You are a person who has paid his dues and speaks from experience.
And I would love to learn from you in August.

[Alberto_Italiano]

All due respect I am not willing to debate or argue with you over this. You and Chris are simply wrong. Lifting ...with appropriate stretching will still change your body in a negative way for martial arts. I have lost track of big muscular guys getting tuned by smaller guys, and not just by waza. You can see it in *good* soft jujutsu, you can see it in internals, you can see it in *good* judo.

Frankly, I dismiss the lifting argument out of hand. It is just such a low level understanding of combatives. Yet every few years someone starts it all up again and thinks some new fangled western science approach to training is the ticket. :rolleyes:
There are any number of *real* engineers, amateur engineers, sport guys and bodyworkers, pushing "the science" of martial movement and any number of speed training and strength training paradigms(and now with great hubris and total lack of skill they have applied their banter to internals) with followers on various forums who turn out to feel and move just like every other Tom, Dick and Harry.
I have no interest or time for debating it on the internet anymore-I just wanted to state my opinion.
Cheers
Dan

But you are perfectly entitled to your opinion Dan. Nobody here takes a different and respectful opinon like arguing.

The only thing I can say, I have been training for over 30 years by now (no interruptions, about 5 times a week at least till today) I have always practiced wieght lifting, in the meanwhile I have boxed and sparred intensively in my twenties, I now practice aikido i jog skip rope and still do weight lifting and I am certainly not worse (neither better lol) than many others in Aikido that we routinely see in our average dojos.

Indeed, in my factual experience, weight lifting causes no issue - it just develops power, which is as needed as speed (or at any rate, as helpful).
Let me be clear: i am not arguing as well - I simply state that for me, I can attest that weight lifting does not cause any inconvenient in combative sports (like it doesn't in athletics, which need even more speed than ours at times - 100mt runners who rely uniquely on explosive speed do weight lifting a lot, and so on...)

Your opinion and experience is fine. Mine, leads to a different conclusion though. There can certainly be a reason for these confliting views. Maybe we're speaking of different type of trainings or we have in mind different scenarios that we assume as implied (I have learned on these forums how often things that we give as implied in sports are not such).

Personally, I would not discourage anyone from weight lifting. I am sorry to hear that you had bad experiences (or at least so i understood or misunderstood) with guys who eprhaps were weight lifting in a fanatic manner (there are plenty, inclusive of those who take substances and hormones!)

ps perhaps that's the point we were skipping: weight lifting is not "a level of understanding of combatives". Undoubtedly those who think so are wrong and if you met guys who tought that the more they have muscles the harder they hit I can produce several feather wieghts who could hurt heavy weights! The idea that muscles are necessary for fighting is wrong, in fact: you're right.

Weight lifitng, when correctly understood, is practiced as a component of general athletic preparation, not as a component of combat.

[Alberto_Italiano]

I think I got what you're talking of: guys who thing the bigger their biceps the better they fight. Its is not so, they are deluded individuals who don't know that biceps count nothing as far as the outcome of a fight is concerned. Nothing.

However, it is not true that if you have biceps then they will stay in the way of your fighting abilities (we could produce thousands of instances of worldwide class champs who had muscular mass too)

[hughrbeyer]

I've been noodling on this for a while and maybe it's worth sharing...

It's well known in the lifting community that weight lifting increases muscle tone. In this context "muscle tone" means something very specific--it's the residual tension remaining in the muscle when the muscle is relaxed. So weight lifting increases that tension. This is why people who bench a lot tend to get rounded shoulders (and injuries) if they don't do balancing back work--the increased tension on the chest and anterior delts pulls the shoulders out of position.

But we know that any muscle tension gets in the way of IS work and aiki power--all the experts have been teaching this since forever. It blocks the connection to hara and makes it impossible to use internal power.

So, quite possibly, that's why weight lifting gets in the way of internal power. It increases the resting tension of the muscles, making it impossible to relax to the degree required to transmit internal power properly. It makes you "tight."

[phitruong]

So, quite possibly, that's why weight lifting gets in the way of internal power. It increases the resting tension of the muscles, making it impossible to relax to the degree required to transmit internal power properly. It makes you "tight."

there are ways to use weights in internal training, but it isn't the usual run of the mills weight training. there are more ways to do it wrong too.

[Chris Parkerson]

Oh yes. I agree if what you mean by tension is tightness.
I have lost plenty of tension over the last decade. The killer for me is that I have also lost allot of mass and tone in all the wrong places. : (

Then the old injuries began talking to me. Some of the worst of it is ligament and tendon imbalance. I tried many practices over 40 years. Nothing cured it. But the Nautilus machines helped. So does kayaking and swimming in similar but not exact ways.

[Chris Parkerson]

I may just move to Saint Kitts and heal up in the warm salt waters....

[Brian Beach]

All due respect I am not willing to debate or argue with you over this. You and Chris are simply wrong. Lifting ...with appropriate stretching will still change your body in a negative way for martial arts. I have lost track of big muscular guys getting tuned by smaller guys, and not just by waza. You can see it in *good* soft jujutsu, you can see it in internals, you can see it in *good* judo.

Frankly, I dismiss the lifting argument out of hand. It is just such a low level understanding of combatives. Yet every few years someone starts it all up again and thinks some new fangled western science approach to training is the ticket. :rolleyes:
There are any number of *real* engineers, amateur engineers, sport guys and bodyworkers, pushing "the science" of martial movement and any number of speed training and strength training paradigms(and now with great hubris and total lack of skill they have applied their banter to internals) with followers on various forums who turn out to feel and move just like every other Tom, Dick and Harry.
I have no interest or time for debating it on the internet anymore-I just wanted to state my opinion.
Cheers
Dan

Not looking to argue but rather clarification - What I know about IS could fill a thimble.

I've heard " Ki no Strength = No Power, Strength no Ki = Power, Ki + Strength = Power."

Also Nadeau sensei talks about form and flow, giving proper structure for the ki to flow. He's a (former?) weight trainer.

Also standing meditation etc are strengthening exercises as well as what ever they may accomplish mentally or for ki development. Holding the postures are difficult.

I don't see how you can be out of hand dismissive of external strength training as it relates to Martial Arts. I know that strength can allow you to cheat on technique but it's not a given. I know "soft" big men. In a fight all factors being equal any advantage is an advantage. Whether it be conditioning, training, strength etc.

[hughrbeyer]

Phi, yeah, there may be ways to use weights in internal training but I don't know any that have the goal of increasing muscular strength, which is what weight training is all about.

Brian, the whole point of the standing meditations, as I understand it, is that after a while you have to find a way to hold the position without using muscular strength because your muscles give out. Similar idea to doing 1000 suburi--by the 1000th, you're probably not using muscular strength any more.

[DH]

1. Not looking to argue but rather clarification - What I know about IS could fill a thimble.
2. I don't see how you can be out of hand dismissive of external strength training as it relates to Martial Arts.
3. In a fight all factors being equal any advantage is an advantage. Whether it be conditioning, training, strength etc.
Well, statement #3 is simply false. You don't understand the advantages of IS; what it takes to achieve it and how lifting can obviate it and produce a different result.
#1 Explains why you don't understand my points.
#2 Is the natural result of not understanding #1

None of what I stated is my point alone. It is shared all over the world by people who do understand IS.
Cheers
Dan

[sakumeikan]

Well, statement #3 is simply false. You don't understand the advantages of IS; what it takes to achieve it and how lifting can obviate it and produce a different result.
#1 Explains why you don't understand my points.
#2 Is the natural result of not understanding #1

None of what I stated is my point alone. It is shared all over the world by people who do understand IS.
Cheers
Dan

Dear Dan
, Sorry to have point out this fact.In Brians comment No 3. he only states any advantage is an advantage .He does not mention lifting[weights ?].Maybe I am a bit dull but Brians comment makes sense to me.As he says ALL things being EQUAL the bigger, stronger, fitter person wins.Tell me any sport where this is not the case?Since you disagree with this premise , give our readers an explanation why you feel otherwise. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.

[Brian Beach]

Well, statement #3 is simply false. You don't understand the advantages of IS; what it takes to achieve it and how lifting can obviate it and produce a different result.
#1 Explains why you don't understand my points.
#2 Is the natural result of not understanding #1

None of what I stated is my point alone. It is shared all over the world by people who do understand IS.
Cheers
Dan

I fully concede my ignorance. I'm asking you to throw me a bone and explain why however surface the explanation needs to be from my point of ignorance.

Maybe if ask in a different way. If you take on two students equally without knowledge, one worked on a farm (lifting and throwing heavy things), the other a milquetoast academic and you bring them along for x amount of time with the same training. Are you saying that the academic will always have a combative advantage?

[Anjisan]

There is another way that one may view this. Instead of arguing whether or not weight lifting will help those who choose to engage in IS, view it from the perspective of combat as a whole. Specifically whether one chooses to do IS or not we are all human and imperfect. Therefore, during combat one's techniques, IS based or not may not immediately and effectively work. Consequently, you most likely will take some hits, punches, elbows, kicks, etc and if you weight train your body may be able to withstand the blows better and thus allow you to continue the interaction. Experienced fighters from MMA to Bruce Lee have expounded on the many values of weight training, sure in moderation, but weight training.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Weight bearing or weight loading exercises are important. I note that the army and marine corps have pretty much gone to functional based physical test. Weight lifting or training ala Arnold style per se does not make for a better soldier or marine. Pretty much all schools of thought today dealing with military or MMA follow the same type of training regimes. Much of what is done in that IP/IT circles is relevant and helpful. There is a time and place for everything.

Me, I just got out of the hospital following surgery to reconstruct my shoulder from an uchi mata gone bad. Needless to say my training regime will be drastically different over the next 6 months. It has also giving me a new perspective on resistance, use of muscle, and strength. My right arm essentially does not work right now. Should be fun.

[Chris Parkerson]

Weight bearing or weight loading exercises are important. I note that the army and marine corps have pretty much gone to functional based physical test. Weight lifting or training ala Arnold style per se does not make for a better soldier or marine. Pretty much all schools of thought today dealing with military or MMA follow the same type of training regimes. Much of what is done in that IP/IT circles is relevant and helpful. There is a time and place for everything.

Me, I just got out of the hospital following surgery to reconstruct my shoulder from an uchi mata gone bad. Needless to say my training regime will be drastically different over the next 6 months. It has also giving me a new perspective on resistance, use of muscle, and strength. My right arm essentially does not work right now. Should be fun.

I feel your pain Kevin,
best of luck in your recuperation and the new insights it brings.

Clydesdales (great strength but cannot bring it up fast enought in a fight) and Chippendales (beautifully cut forms suited for Holywood and dancing) surely ain't what the military is looking for.

In fact, isn't the Army Ranger's perfect model of human athletic conditioning within the 170 pound range? Muscle or fat, the heart has to pump the same amount of blood through the mass. And mass is the kiss of death on long-haul work-outs like the battlefield.....

[Chris Parkerson]

Now for another look at throwing from the 2 on 1 grip. Moe Stevens (40 year Tomiki, Jujitsu, Judo and wrestling Instructor) using his well integrated hip-wiggle to to throw from Sumi Otoshi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNPJ1Y_oIc8

[DH]

Dear Dan
Sorry to have point out this fact.In Brians comment No 3. he only states any advantage is an advantage .He does not mention lifting[weights ?].Maybe I am a bit dull but Brians comment makes sense to me.
Hi Again Joe.
I am delighted that you guys continue to believe that stronger, bigger...is the way to go. I see no advantage in trying to change your mind either.
You are continually....as in thousands of years of history....proven wrong. Right up to many fights in the UFC where men with 70 lb advantages lost against jujutsu.

Tell me any sport where this is not the case?
I'm not talking about sports...you are.

Since you disagree with this premise, give our readers an explanation why you feel otherwise. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
I have, along with others for 16 years on the net.
And 1,100 people later; to include many Shihan and Menkyo and MMA and BJJers later....
Not a single one of you have ever proven our model wrong in person (not that it matters that we have to be 100% correct anyway. It's just turned out that way I would allow for failures in a model). And most of you switched and want to train it.
Think of it.....
All of the arguments that you.... as a collected whole have made.... have all failed in person.
And you still want to debate it?
Debate what?

Cheers
Dan

[Chris Parkerson]

Dan,

I, for one, read your constructive explanations about what you do. I am still a bit hazy on how it is experienced and being a phenomenologist to a large degree, I would prefer to rely on my experience of things.

I also know what it is like to walk a road less travelled and the ridicule you have likely received by being public about it. I honor you for that. It takes a determined and confident will to navigate such a path. Likely, in 30 more years when you have trained the 100th monkey and the system becomes dominant, some folks who were the ones ridiculing you will likely have come full circle and, claim they developed it. That is the way of things from my experience. So kudos to you.

And, as for me, I would be grateful to experience it and learn what i cannot fully grasp online.

[Walter Martindale]

My first judo sensei spent 5 or more years in Japan, right about the time Isao Okano was (at the time) the smallest person (80 kg-176lb) to win the All Japan Judo Championships. Late 1960s.. I started Judo in 1972.

Dave (my sensei) had told me that on one occasion he came across Okano in the Kodokan weight room (yes, there was one back then, can't speak for now) throwing massive amounts of steel around in bench press, squat, etc... He asked something like "I thought you didn't do weight lifting" and Okano is supposed to have replied along the lines of "I don't lift weights.. this is judo". No sense of irony, no joking around - the training was part of being all-round the best judo competitor of the day.

Hours of judo training each day.. AND weights.. AND a hard-a$$ attitude.

[Kevin Leavitt]

170 pounds seems about right. While there are many factors, and I have no scientific proof, I'd say that in my experiences a well rounded individual in that ball park tends to so very well for a number of reasons. Current modalities of training tend to follow the crossfit model and it seems to work.

What does this have to so with arm bars or IP/IT methods? I don't know.

Dan I don't believe has said these things are wrong or anything, only that they won't build the specific things that IP/IT are designed to do. In some cases he feels some things may actually be get in the way. I'd also buy that.

I think a lot of this depends on what it is that you want to do with your body. A competitive shooter doesn't need to be a Ranger or an Olympic sprinter. He needs to concentrate on the specificity of his sport. It could be that Dan's methods would assist him greatly. Same with me. As an aging BJJer, the old methods are not working well for me and I find myself adapting new ways of doing things that give me an edge or different way that may allow me to stay effective.

My point with my injury. Well, I am three days post surgery and just engaging and disengaing muscles in a big deal right now. Lifting weights.....well while that may be good for some.....think about my situation right now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Chances are Dan, if he were here, could begin working with me today and I'd make some progress on rewiring. Frankly, I am turning more to my friends in martial arts for my rehab than I am to Certified PTs.

Not sure if I am making my point clear, but there is no one right solution to everything. What Dan does hqs been proven to enough in the business to have merit and value. So I'd be inclined to listen to what he has to say and figure out how it works for you. Dan has always been clear about integration. He has stated many times that you need to take it and figure out how to make it work for you.

Sitting on the side of the mat right now, heck, it has caused me to look hard at my future and realize that, yeah, maybe the things I have done in the past need to change.

I've always stated over the years that it is not whether in works or not....it is all about priorities and where you place them.

[Kevin Leavitt]

My first judo sensei spent 5 or more years in Japan, right about the time Isao Okano was (at the time) the smallest person (80 kg-176lb) to win the All Japan Judo Championships. Late 1960s.. I started Judo in 1972.

Dave (my sensei) had told me that on one occasion he came across Okano in the Kodokan weight room (yes, there was one back then, can't speak for now) throwing massive amounts of steel around in bench press, squat, etc... He asked something like "I thought you didn't do weight lifting" and Okano is supposed to have replied along the lines of "I don't lift weights.. this is judo". No sense of irony, no joking around - the training was part of being all-round the best judo competitor of the day.

Hours of judo training each day.. AND weights.. AND a hard-a$$ attitude.

I would wonder if Olympic champions train that way today. We've learned a lot over the last 30 some years. Heck when I was a kid playing football it was all about no water until after practice and salt tablets.

For a young judo athlete in his prime, sure, I'd say that weight training is important to some degree. I'd be interested on what the kodokan and others actually do today. Same with sumo, I wonder.

That said, how many of us are 20 somethings looking for a short, but stellar judo career?

That is sort of my point above about what is good for one is not good for all. I've been in the military for 27 years and I have been pretty successful and extending my career and staying fit and relevant within the special ops community. At 45 I was running around the mountains of Afghanistan with young operators holding my own. Today, I have found myself training with a bunch of over the hill operators in mid to late 40s looking at staying relevant and continuing to be able to do the physical work. Usually it is an injury that takes us out.

So, we are looking for ways to train that allow us to prolong our careers and not get hurt. Not always easy, but most of us look back on some of the things we did and reflect what a waste of time it was and in some cases see how that led to the degenerative disc disease we have or how those wide grip pull ups weakened the rotator cuff.

I can tell u I train much different than I did or had sense to in my 20s.

[Chris Li]

There is another way that one may view this. Instead of arguing whether or not weight lifting will help those who choose to engage in IS, view it from the perspective of combat as a whole. Specifically whether one chooses to do IS or not we are all human and imperfect. Therefore, during combat one's techniques, IS based or not may not immediately and effectively work. Consequently, you most likely will take some hits, punches, elbows, kicks, etc and if you weight train your body may be able to withstand the blows better and thus allow you to continue the interaction. Experienced fighters from MMA to Bruce Lee have expounded on the many values of weight training, sure in moderation, but weight training.

My experience has been that weight training, or weight training type exercises, will specifically interfere with the kinds of things you're attempting to train with IS.

Now, will there come a point when weight training can be added back in? I can certainly envision it, but it's so far beyond me at this point (as it probably is for most of the folks working on this stuff) that it's not worth even considering unless I have a specific short term need for that kind of strength.

Best,

Chris

[sakumeikan]

Hi Again Joe.
I am delighted that you guys continue to believe that stronger, bigger...is the way to go. I see no advantage in trying to change your mind either.
You are continually....as in thousands of years of history....proven wrong. Right up to many fights in the UFC where men with 70 lb advantages lost against jujutsu.

I'm not talking about sports...you are.

I have, along with others for 16 years on the net.
And 1,100 people later; to include many Shihan and Menkyo and MMA and BJJers later....
Not a single one of you have ever proven our model wrong in person (not that it matters that we have to be 100% correct anyway. It's just turned out that way I would allow for failures in a model). And most of you switched and want to train it.
Think of it.....
All of the arguments that you.... as a collected whole have made.... have all failed in person.
And you still want to debate it?
Debate what?

Cheers
Dan
Dear Dan
Sorry to point out an obvious error in your reply to me.Where have I mentioned bigger /stronger or whatever?All I have said that any advantage of any kind[ be it I/S /pain tolerance/conditioning /speed /endurance or whatever] will have a deciding factor if the combatants are equal in every respect
If you must reply with a quote at least get the text /quote correct.Cheers, Joe.

[Brian Beach]

Dear Dan
Sorry to point out an obvious error in your reply to me.Where have I mentioned bigger /stronger or whatever?All I have said that any advantage of any kind[ be it I/S /pain tolerance/conditioning /speed /endurance or whatever] will have a deciding factor if the combatants are equal in every respect
If you must reply with a quote at least get the text /quote correct.Cheers, Joe.

To piggyback - I'm not talking about using muscle in lieu of technique. Most Jujitsu arts state something to the effect of "if you are using muscle, you are doing it wrong"

With all factors being the same between two practitioners, Internal Training, endurance, martial technique, height, weight etc. How is the physically stronger one at a disadvantage? You don't have to be big or bulky to be strong.

[Chris Parkerson]

Kevin,

Your point is clear with me. I have found amazing gains in my internal martial arts having walked away from the weight room. That was over 10 years ago. Having done it so late in my martial arts career, my body also transformed from a v shape to a pear shape.

Even that works in some ways for centering and low body leverage. But it sucks in ground work. I feel like a walrus waddling on the beach. And old injuries have come back to bite me.

Shoulders are one of them. One great lesson I learned from that injury comes from (I believe) Tohei's statemen "when entering, enter deep". That way, the shoulders (upper body) doesn't have to do the work.

I am too far gone to try weights again, I suspect. Swimming, kayaking and love making hopefully (along with my hammer and rake) will keep me trucking.

Be well,

Chris

[James Sawers]

In fact, isn't the Army Ranger's perfect model of human athletic conditioning within the 170 pound range? Muscle or fat, the heart has to pump the same amount of blood through the mass. And mass is the kiss of death on long-haul work-outs like the battlefield.....

Just like to mention that equal weight of muscle or fat is not the same. Muscle is "active" while fat is not, in that muscle is actively assisting in blood flow and activity while fat does not (except as a possible fuel source).

As for the rest of the debate, interesting...

Jim...

www.nothing-works.com

[Kevin Leavitt]

To piggyback - I'm not talking about using muscle in lieu of technique. Most Jujitsu arts state something to the effect of "if you are using muscle, you are doing it wrong"

With all factors being the same between two practitioners, Internal Training, endurance, martial technique, height, weight etc. How is the physically stronger one at a disadvantage? You don't have to be big or bulky to be strong.

That's a fair and good question. I'd say if u are isolating all else being equal sure. Who is stronger matters. Define it though....how measured? Guy with better physique, bigger arms, can run faster?

I've found that many times I am stronger on the mat in angles and ways than bigger and younger guys that can do more pull ups etc. You might look at that and say, oh well you transitioned to technique...that's not isolating strength. I've also gassed many a weight lifter as well, but again what does that have to do with strength of conditioning...you'd say, well you are better at jiu jitsu that he.

Maybe if you had us both grab a give hanging from a bar and said the winner is the one that holds on the longest...then ,maybe we would have a contest of strength, or who can keep there legs wrapped around a body for the longest...but alas, even then, the jiu jitsu player would argue that he would never hang out that long in one position and would manage his body in such a way to rest and move and remain active...you know using all that encompasses jiu jitsu.

I think it is stupid to try and split out and isolate this stuff. I regularly beat guys 20 years younger than me that are in better shape, stronger etc. Sure, me being in better cardiac shape helps, and strength helps too, as well as my size. Consistently though I have found that what matters more than any of this is simply how good your jiu jitsu game is. I work constantly on my game and integrating things. Really my secret lately has been working the softer side of things, angles, and developing a good defensive game that allows me to attack from any position. I assume the younger, and stronger guy will jump on me hard and fight to a dominate position. I let him exert his will and game. While I begin to defend. Essentially what I do is work him outside of his comfort zone and then take control of the OODA process and never give it back. I call it old man jiu jitsu and it seems to work we'll.

Anyway, my point is, all equal, sure strength matters. But in jiu jitsu that equation and dynamics are never quite that equal or clear.

[Brian Beach]

That's a fair and good question. I'd say if u are isolating all else being equal sure. Who is stronger matters. Define it though....how measured? Guy with better physique, bigger arms, can run faster?

I've found that many times I am stronger on the mat in angles and ways than bigger and younger guys that can do more pull ups etc. You might look at that and say, oh well you transitioned to technique...that's not isolating strength. I've also gassed many a weight lifter as well, but again what does that have to do with strength of conditioning...you'd say, well you are better at jiu jitsu that he.

Maybe if you had us both grab a give hanging from a bar and said the winner is the one that holds on the longest...then ,maybe we would have a contest of strength, or who can keep there legs wrapped around a body for the longest...but alas, even then, the jiu jitsu player would argue that he would never hang out that long in one position and would manage his body in such a way to rest and move and remain active...you know using all that encompasses jiu jitsu.

I think it is stupid to try and split out and isolate this stuff. I regularly beat guys 20 years younger than me that are in better shape, stronger etc. Sure, me being in better cardiac shape helps, and strength helps too, as well as my size. Consistently though I have found that what matters more than any of this is simply how good your jiu jitsu game is. I work constantly on my game and integrating things. Really my secret lately has been working the softer side of things, angles, and developing a good defensive game that allows me to attack from any position. I assume the younger, and stronger guy will jump on me hard and fight to a dominate position. I let him exert his will and game. While I begin to defend. Essentially what I do is work him outside of his comfort zone and then take control of the OODA process and never give it back. I call it old man jiu jitsu and it seems to work we'll.

Anyway, my point is, all equal, sure strength matters. But in jiu jitsu that equation and dynamics are never quite that equal or clear.

I agree that technique trumps strength. That's why I seek out little old men that can kick my a$$. Also strength will fade as the years progress. But if it's going to fade why go from 5 to 1 when you can go from 9 to 5. I just look at it regardless how good I become, there is always someone better why not have something in reserve.

Also as was mentioned before better conditioning allows for more intense training which leads to increased skill.

[James Sawers]

...It's so easy to get lost in the words....

Jim....

:circle:

www.nothing-works.com

[Kevin Leavitt]

I agree that technique trumps strength. That's why I seek out little old men that can kick my a$$. Also strength will fade as the years progress. But if it's going to fade why go from 5 to 1 when you can go from 9 to 5. I just look at it regardless how good I become, there is always someone better why not have something in reserve.

Also as was mentioned before better conditioning allows for more intense training which leads to increased skill.

Agreed

[DonMagee]

...
I trained both hard and soft neck strengthening techniques. Neck bridges were a good part of that. Just as important were internal forms of exhaling and the consistent stretching of the fascial tissue around the throat as my partner grabbed my gi and pressed his fist laterally against my throat to the laft and then to the right..


I'm still not sure how strengthening the neck helps with choke resistance? I understand how it helps in defense (being able to tuck the chin), but I have other less than competition legal ways of raising that chin (eye gouging comes to mind). But it has been my experience that no judoka or bjjer that I have ever secured a choke on has been able to resist me for more than 2-3 seconds.

I train the squeeze all the time, I basically sit on the floor, watch tv and choke my knee. It has been my experience that with people who are new in the sport, that they don't have the squeeze strength or endurance to finish the choke and I can usually wait them out, but for anyone with a little bit of training, once that choke is sunk, I'm done. I can't think of a blue belt in bjj that I would dare let get under my chin.

[Phil Van Treese]

In Tomiki, there are as many arm locks as there are hairs on your head---unless you're bald. Armbars/armlocks---kansetsu waza---are a great equalizer and they can be applied at any given situation. Kansetsu waza is for control. When your opponent feels the armbar, and of course you're talking to him and telling him what's going to happen if he continues his aggresion, he's going to be a little less aggressive since he doesn't want his arm broken. It's not hard to get an armbar in any attack but if the fool wants to "reach out and touch someone", then he'll pay the price. We do armbars/kansetsu waza all the time and it's amazing how fast, and effectively, someone can be humbled. I do like chokes, shime waza, too which is another great equalizer. But chokes is another subject.

[Chris Parkerson]

I'm still not sure how strengthening the neck helps with choke resistance? I understand how it helps in defense (being able to tuck the chin), but I have other less than competition legal ways of raising that chin (eye gouging comes to mind). But it has been my experience that no judoka or bjjer that I have ever secured a choke on has been able to resist me for more than 2-3 seconds.

I train the squeeze all the time, I basically sit on the floor, watch tv and choke my knee. It has been my experience that with people who are new in the sport, that they don't have the squeeze strength or endurance to finish the choke and I can usually wait them out, but for anyone with a little bit of training, once that choke is sunk, I'm done. I can't think of a blue belt in bjj that I would dare let get under my chin.

I agree with your points. If you have trained yourself to be an anaconda, you have greater
success at choking. My proposition is not an either/or statement.
It is a mathematical one. Hal reviewed USJA authorized bouts and tallied the counts. You can do
the same: take the last 100 UFC fights. How many won by chokes? How many by knock outs?
How many by arm bars? Leg bars? Bloody mess referee decisions?
I know there are other factors as this math I suggest was not a calculus. But Hal's was. He is a
good mathematician. I am not.
I was anaconda'd by a Bando man with 20" guns at Front Sight in Pahrump, NV. I had been hired
to develop a martial arts curriculum for them and hire teachers. It was advertised in BlackBelt
magazine that Front Sight would pay a small fee to each interviewee. I was swamped with mat-
based interviews.

I gave this man my neck and he immediately dislocated my jaw. The choke was on within 2 seconds.
It took two years for my jaw to heal up. He was either nervous or extremely insensitive. But he was a great technician.

[DonMagee]

I agree with your points. If you have trained yourself to be an anaconda, you have greater
success at choking. My proposition is not an either/or statement.
It is a mathematical one. Hal reviewed USJA authorized bouts and tallied the counts. You can do
the same: take the last 100 UFC fights. How many won by chokes? How many by knock outs?
How many by arm bars? Leg bars? Bloody mess referee decisions?
I know there are other factors as this math I suggest was not a calculus. But Hal's was. He is a
good mathematician. I am not.
I was anaconda'd by a Bando man with 20" guns at Front Sight in Pahrump, NV. I had been hired
to develop a martial arts curriculum for them and hire teachers. It was advertised in BlackBelt
magazine that Front Sight would pay a small fee to each interviewee. I was swamped with mat-
based interviews.

I gave this man my neck and he immediately dislocated my jaw. The choke was on within 2 seconds.
It took two years for my jaw to heal up. He was either nervous or extremely insensitive. But he was a great technician.

I wasn't trying to debate the pros and cons of chokes in ending fights. Obviously any skilled grappler will know how to defend against submissions (which is why submissions are much more rare in mma then they were in it's birth). I was just asking about training your neck to resist choking. More directly, if that training was referring to being able to resist the effects of choking or just the ability to prevent the attacker from sinking the choke.

In my personal experience, I have seen guys with strong necks (big body builders) just as easy to choke (or as hard to choke if they were trained) as guys with pencil necks.

[Chris Parkerson]

I wasn't trying to debate the pros and cons of chokes in ending fights. Obviously any skilled grappler will know how to defend against submissions (which is why submissions are much more rare in mma then they were in it's birth). I was just asking about training your neck to resist choking. More directly, if that training was referring to being able to resist the effects of choking or just the ability to prevent the attacker from sinking the choke.

In my personal experience, I have seen guys with strong necks (big body builders) just as easy to choke (or as hard to choke if they were trained) as guys with pencil necks.

I am sorry Don,

Yes, I agree. The strength training of my neck was more for general fighting defense. The softer training, the stretching of the fascia and the form of breathing aided in my body being able to relax and oxygenate itself under the pressures of a choke.

Does it prevent the choke? I would say it bought me time when I was attacked with chokes. What I did with that time was the critical issue.

I meant no offense in my earlier response. I can get sidetracked sometimes by the gestalt and larger context.

Be well,

Chris

[DonMagee]

I am sorry Don,

Yes, I agree. The strength training of my neck was more for general fighting defense. The softer training, the stretching of the fascia and the form of breathing aided in my body being able to relax and oxygenate itself under the pressures of a choke.

Does it prevent the choke? I would say it bought me time when I was attacked with chokes. What I did with that time was the critical issue.

I meant no offense in my earlier response. I can get sidetracked sometimes by the gestalt and larger context.

Be well,

Chris

Thanks for the clarification. I agree 100% that being able to relax helps with buying you time for escapes. It's something I always try to stress to new grapplers who are tapping as soon as there is pressure on their necks. Relax, breathe, defend.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Good to see u back posting Don

[DonMagee]

Good to see u back posting Don

Thanks, I had to take a break from martial arts for a while to focus on other things. Trying to rekindle the desire to keep working out again.

[Phil Van Treese]

IF you do chokes properly, I don't care who you are----you will be tapping out quickly. Chokes can always be applied and pass someone out within 2-3 seconds. I have had my class learning chokes for at least 2-3 years and they are pretty good---and they still can't pass me out or tap me out. But they are getting there. In everything you do, there is technique involved---esp. when using chokes. How to apply chokes takes finnesse and know how. IF you want to learn how to choke properly, go to a judo class and learn or come to our Tampa dojo and I'll help you learn. Strengthening the neck helps somewhat but not all that much. Contrary to what most people believe, you don't squeeze a choke----you dig with your wristbone into his/her neck. Done right, uke will be tapping like a machine gun in no time!!!!

[Rob Watson]

you dig with your wristbone

Styloid process of the radius?

[Gorgeous George]

IF you do chokes properly, I don't care who you are----you will be tapping out quickly. Chokes can always be applied and pass someone out within 2-3 seconds. I have had my class learning chokes for at least 2-3 years and they are pretty good---and they still can't pass me out or tap me out. But they are getting there. In everything you do, there is technique involved---esp. when using chokes. How to apply chokes takes finnesse and know how. IF you want to learn how to choke properly, go to a judo class and learn or come to our Tampa dojo and I'll help you learn. Strengthening the neck helps somewhat but not all that much. Contrary to what most people believe, you don't squeeze a choke----you dig with your wristbone into his/her neck. Done right, uke will be tapping like a machine gun in no time!!!!

I agree; it wasn't for nothing that Helio Gracie favoured chokes, as they're effective no matter how strong someone is - 'There are strong arms, but no strong necks.'.
I'm sure he'd know, too.

[DonMagee]

IF you do chokes properly, I don't care who you are----you will be tapping out quickly. Chokes can always be applied and pass someone out within 2-3 seconds. I have had my class learning chokes for at least 2-3 years and they are pretty good---and they still can't pass me out or tap me out. But they are getting there. In everything you do, there is technique involved---esp. when using chokes. How to apply chokes takes finnesse and know how. IF you want to learn how to choke properly, go to a judo class and learn or come to our Tampa dojo and I'll help you learn. Strengthening the neck helps somewhat but not all that much. Contrary to what most people believe, you don't squeeze a choke----you dig with your wristbone into his/her neck. Done right, uke will be tapping like a machine gun in no time!!!!

Taping or passing out? I don't care for pain compliance much, the hadaka jime I was taught in judo was great for tapping people out, but did little for taking them out. It caused intense pressure with the wrist and a lot of pain, but ultimately did little to cut off enough blood flow for the desired effect. Contrasted with the 'same' choke in bjj which used the squeeze. I wouldn't get the same immediate pain tap, but if they guy didn't tap in a few seconds he would be sleeping and asking what happened.

I want the fastest route to unconsciousness with the most control of my opponent, not the fastest route to a tap. In my experience, using the squeeze allows me the greatest amount of control (escaping requires using both hands to remove one hand from behind your head, then keeping it from going back while removing the other hand from under your neck) and requires the least amount of energy to keep engaged. I can teach anyone to do this in about 5-7 minutes and they will be able to do it everytime to anyone who lets them sink it (the real trick (the one that takes months/years/decades/lifetimes is learning how to sink it against someone who doesn't' want you to). The only issue they might have is being able to keep constant pressure for 5-10 seconds. This is where I advocate choking your knee while you watch tv.

I have many pain compliance techniques. I don't like them because the minute you let go, your back into the fight. For example, I have a "bow and arrow choke" that probably gets most of it's taps from the knee in their spine or the gi accidentally going across their face then it does from actually cutting off their blood/air supply.

To be clear, I am not saying you are advocating pain compliance, perhaps you know a way to get quick and effective unconsciousness with your wrists. I can only speak to personal experience and I have trained with what I feel to be very top level judo and bjj players. This is probably a matter of body type, skill, position, and personal preference.

[Chris Parkerson]

I like the "starfish" maneuver. Not around too much these days, but you end up having a leg figure four Juji and a one handed choke that pops the head like a pimple. And your are positioned behind uke so that he cannot respond in any effective manner. Why not do submission and choke....

Chris

[Kevin Leavitt]

My resolve this year was to get lethal with chokes from any position. I'm getting there. Learned more in the last six months than I ever thought. I'm with Don on pain. If you get the angles and hand/arm position correct, then no pain but they are going out fast. I recently did a seminar, most guys really need to be shown how to do them properly. Once u get it, you can lay them on pretty easily ad effective.

The challenge is getting control of your opponent to get to the right position to choke. That is not the issue of the choke though as u need this for any technique.

[PeterR]

The problem with pain is that there are some people just immune to it or worse - that seem to enjoy it.

And at the risk of channelling Steven S. stopping a choke is possible (waves to Gene). Not so foolish to say that once a choke is firmly in place I can flex my neck muscles and the like but just that getting a choke firmly in place can be messed up in so many ways.

[Dan Richards]

Actually, a much simpler way to look at this is - it's hand holding. It's helping. It's offering assistance. It's protecting. It's nothing more than that.