Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[jackie adams]

Hello, and greeting Aikido community. A huge apology for this embarrassing topic about the faults of Aikido being made public.

It always been my belief Aikido, unless the person of Aikido is really good at baiting and of high skill, doesn't have a chance against a MMA/BJJ. Aikido is effective and MMA/BJJ is not the best or only measuring tool. Aikido was not developed for competition. The paradigm Aikido has, hasn't adapted to the broader spectrum of martial arts. Aikido is limited to deal with several specific martial arts. It hasn't adapted to deal with the variety of other martial arts.

When you view the youtube video, if you hold your head in shame, your not alone. It should really be a wake up call in many areas. It is a hard dose of reality for some. I harp on the issue of the harder you train the better you are, this proves it. Aikido is an art of kazushi, this is embarrassing.

A must see video of Aikido vs Judo
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s)
Major Debatable Points:
1. The Aikido guy was over-weight, out of shape.
2. Lacked the understanding of a fundamental principle in Aikido, kazushi
3. Didn't understand Aikido at all. He had no knowledge of the situation he was in, constantly on the wrong type and side of being on the defense.
4. Fought the other guy's fight and feel in to trap after trap.
5. How can this situation be changed for the better, or improved for the Aikido guy. What should he have done realistically.

Again, I apologize. It is my intention not to degrade Aikido, but take this as an opportunity of education through discussion. Honest self-critic is growth. Thank you and looking forward to the constructive comments. Everyone have a great day.

[Richard Stevens]

Your post lacks basic logic. You claim that this video should have Aikidoka hanging their head in shame as if it proves that their art is useless. However, you then go on to state that the Aikidoka in the video lacks fundamental Aikido skills. You are wasting people's time by posting useless garbage like this. Maybe you should spend more time training and less time trolling.

Also, I believe it is "kuzushi" not "kazushi".

[lbb]

Hello, and greeting Aikido community. A huge apology for this embarrassing topic about the faults of Aikido being made public.

It's ok, Jackie, no need to apologize for what you haven't done, i.e., raised an embarrassing topic. Please don't weep crocodile tears on my account; I don't find imaginary things embarrassing, nor do I consider something to be a "fault" unless it is a real (not imagined) deficiency in contradiction of an actual (not falsely posited) claim.

[jackie adams]

Aikido community, let me apologize if my post doesn't come off as sincere. It is. May I make corrections to lessen confusion, Kazushi/Kuzushi = 崩し to break. http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/崩し

This is not to criticize Aikido in a negative way. There is lots of criticism already about Aikido and it's failings in a negative way. In the video communicates these criticisms without the negative tone in a visual neutral way. It was too a hard pill from me to shallow when I watch the video. I was embarrassed, and in shame because much of the criticism was revealed in the video. I had to face the facts too, it was a wake up call for me to change my paradigm. I am interested in how to fix the problem the Aikido guy was facing, to improve these situations. I find it difficult to ignore this, it needs to be respectfully discussed.

For one, many of us in Aikido are over-weight, out of shape. Americans are the most over weight people according to many professionals. The excess weigh doesn't work well for these situations, our Founder an his great deshi were not over-weight. It is a valid concern. We see in the video how being over-weight hinders technique and works against you. Aikido isn't Sumo.

It is up to the Aikido community how they want to handle this, if at all. If we don't treat this subject honestly, and see the reality are we going to be better off for it, are we?

Thank you everyone for your time and understanding. Have a great day.

[chillzATL]

Where's the embarrassing part? I guess the title of the video is accurate, but what I see is an aikido guy seeing if he can do anything against a judo guy. You see several times that he has ideas of things he could do, using atemi/etc, but in the context of what they're doing (friendly training/testing) he's obviously not going to do that. Props to him for playing like this.

If you think it's all about kuzushi, what is the aikido guy missing to allow him to get kuzushi on someone clearly intent on downing him? 1000 more reps of ikkyo? 5000 shihonage's? more "hard training"?

[jackie adams]

Hello everyone.

Before I leave this up to the Aikido community to discuss as they please. One last comment. Aikido is the most sensitive to criticism of most of the other martial arts. The other arts welcome criticism they take the negative and turn it into a positive that improves those who practice the art. Criticism can be painful, but it isn't always bad, it is the lack of criticism that is the most damaging. My biggest criticism of Aikido is how we as a community handle criticism. We don't take the negative and work it into a positive that works for us. We make it personal and hold it against the critic. We kill the messenger.

Please enjoy your day and best of training everyone.

[John Connolly]

There are many reasons to criticize Aikido, but why is this video a talking point? is it that the Aikido guy got taken to the ground over and over? What are their comparative skill levels/years in training? This is clearly an experimental session and not true sparring anyway. Bad video example.

[chillzATL]

obvious troll is obvious...

[Janet Rosen]

Why should I be ashamed because a couple of guys are making a video? WTF does it have to do with me, my training, or a supposed "aikido community"?

[gregstec]

I agree with John here, that video is nothing more than two guys playing around - I did not see anything against anything for comparison, nor is it a high level representation of either art.

I really don't see your point - maybe Jason is on the right track there.

Greg

[gregstec]

Why should I be ashamed because a couple of guys are making a video? WTF does it have to do with me, my training, or a supposed "aikido community"?

WTF ??? - I guess you can take the girl out Brooklyn but not take the Brooklyn out of the girl :D

[Kevin Leavitt]

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch!

BJJ/MMA taught me alot as an Aikidoka. It taught me that I really did not understand alot of things about fighting and the application of fighting and martial methodologies. So far that most valuable lesson in life...THANK you BJJ/MMA.

Now, on that note, I STILL do and practice aikido. and there is a reason for that. Given correct training and the correct perspective and understanding of why we should and do train in aikido. it is a very good methodology for training.

The problem lies in the fact that many in our practice of AIkido do not understand these things and go out and write checks they cannot cash. It really is as simple as that and their failings do not prove or disprove the practice of Aikido..for the right reasons.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hello everyone.

Before I leave this up to the Aikido community to discuss as they please. One last comment. Aikido is the most sensitive to criticism of most of the other martial arts. The other arts welcome criticism they take the negative and turn it into a positive that improves those who practice the art. Criticism can be painful, but it isn't always bad, it is the lack of criticism that is the most damaging. My biggest criticism of Aikido is how we as a community handle criticism. We don't take the negative and work it into a positive that works for us. We make it personal and hold it against the critic. We kill the messenger.

Please enjoy your day and best of training everyone.

This wasn't a problem for me. I got my ass handed to me by a BJJer so I started studying BJJ. So now I can competently handle the criticism. Problem is...too many people want to make excuses and find out ways to avoid going outside of their comfort zones.

Not saying everyone should go out and study BJJ, but if you want to gripe about it and it is an issue for you...then maybe some time with a guy that is good with takedowns and figuring out how to answer the problem set is time well spent. Just saying.

[lbb]

Before I leave this up to the Aikido community to discuss as they please. One last comment. Aikido is the most sensitive to criticism of most of the other martial arts. The other arts welcome criticism they take the negative and turn it into a positive that improves those who practice the art. Criticism can be painful, but it isn't always bad, it is the lack of criticism that is the most damaging. My biggest criticism of Aikido is how we as a community handle criticism. We don't take the negative and work it into a positive that works for us. We make it personal and hold it against the critic. We kill the messenger.

Another invalid generalization. "Arts" don't do anything, for heaven's sake; why anthopomorphize a loose amalgamation of people who are doing more or less the same thing, as if it were a single entity with a coherent collective intent?

Sorry, Jackie, it sounds to me more like you wanted to grind an axe and so you manufactured a burning issue that needs to be discussed, and nobody's biting on the hook in exactly the way you want. I think we've seen enough one-true-wayers here that we can spot 'em a mile away by now.

[philipsmith]

Hmmm................

Maybe it's embarassing for some but not for others.

Had my ass handed to me lots of times by Aikidoka and other martial artists - also done the vice versa thing (i.e. handed people their ass). All situations differ and there is always somebody tougher faster and stronger than you

[Cliff Judge]

This video? This is a judo shiai. Why would anyone expect an Aikidoka to do better than a ranked Judoka in a Judo shiai?

[dps]

. I am an Aikido hobbyist according to the elite Aikido professionals, and not a member of the Aikido community. Therefore I am not embarrassed at all.

However I think the Aikido guy does have a cool pony tail.

dps

[ryback]

Tho only embarrassing thing that I see here is that anyone would make such claims about aikido,let alone judging from a video such as this.Each aikidoka has his own level of ability,training and choices to be judged by but they don't reflect on aikido as an martial art or it's effectiveness.By the way,every aikidoka who respects himself has a cool ponytail.Hahaha!

[Shadowfax]

I'm not really sure why I need to be embarrassed or ashamed of being an aikidoka based on that or any video. Seeing as how I did not get into aikido in order to become the baddest ass in town nor do I feel a special need to be able to beat another martial artist of any kind in a silly contest to see who is a better fighter. To me all of the posturing and the whose MA is best arguing is ridiculous and a waste of good training time. If someone is looking for a MA because they want to go get in fights then they should probably pick something else.

If people want to criticize aikido then let them. That is their problem. Personally I am proud to be an aikidoka and proud to be a student of my teachers.

[mathewjgano]

Hello, and greeting

A must see video of Aikido vs Judo
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s)
Major Debatable Points:
1. The Aikido guy was over-weight, out of shape.
2. Lacked the understanding of a fundamental principle in Aikido, kazushi
3. Didn't understand Aikido at all. He had no knowledge of the situation he was in, constantly on the wrong type and side of being on the defense.
4. Fought the other guy's fight and feel in to trap after trap.
5. How can this situation be changed for the better, or improved for the Aikido guy. What should he have done realistically.

Again, I apologize. It is my intention not to degrade Aikido, but take this as an opportunity of education through discussion. Honest self-critic is growth. Thank you and looking forward to the constructive comments. Everyone have a great day.

I agree with the idea that this wasn't a serious attempt at sparring. Rather than feel ashamed at his performance, I like that he was trying some things out and working on his "game." Unless there is more information about the guys involved it's hard to pass judgement on his training...and the judo guy was pretty good sized and in good shape, which accounts for quite a bit. The Aikidoist never seemed to really try and seize control like the Judo guy did. So the questions I have are related to the idea that I didn't see any major attempts by the Aikido guy. Perhaps he was trying something very specific that was hard to see. I kept wishing there was no music so I could hear what they were saying.
Failure is a chance to work toward success. It looked very one-sided, but let's suppose this is a video of a shodan Aikidoka training with a sandan (for the sake of argument; not that rank is a valid marker for success, particularly in interdisciplinary randori). Even if he's a very highly ranked Aikidoka with a first year Judoka, as it was pointed out, this doesn't reflect on me or anyone else. I have a similar response when people talk about the decline of Aikido: "Is your training declining?"
There will always be people like me who make their chosen practices look bad in some way; de facto lessening the overall quality to some degree. What matters is how each of us engages our own training; not how others engage theirs. I have no problem with people thinking Aikido is a weak art full of [insert derogatory remarks here]. I'm confident there are folks who are dedicated to doing very serious work and creating very serious quality. Let's look to those examples when we try to define Aikido in the context of other arts.

[Tengu859]

Jack,

Seems to me you may need to look deep inside of yourself. All the best.

ChrisW

[Rob Watson]

The aikidoka that see no value in having a midlevel judoka (or fill in your fave/feared MA/venue) dump them are the ones you have to worry about.

[Aikibu]

Just because this dudes Aikido sucks does not mean Aikido does. Troll.

Why do I think the guy's a Troll? Because there is enough good Aikido on the Web to objectify his "example" for discussion...Instead we get another old, tired, and juvenile meme with one video as "proof"

I have a few vids on tape of my days as a beginner and yup... at one time in my life My Aikido mostly sucked too...and depending on the skill level of my attacker that my still be the case LOL Though it is much rarer these days. :D

Like any Martial Art your practice is as "effective" as you want it to be. The choice is yours.

Practicing Hard with a full commitment to being the best you can be has always been the solution for any Martial Art you chose to learn.

William Hazen

[ChrisHein]

Jackie Adams,
While your post has a general merit about it- question your system and find what is lacking. Overall it shows a lack of understanding about context. In this video they are basically "doing Judo". When doing Judo who do you think will be better at it, a guy who does Judo all the time or a guy who doesn't do Judo? If you have a boxing match, and pit a boxer against a Judoka, who do you think will win the boxing match?

Aikido isn't Judo, it isn't boxing it isn't anything other than Aikido. This context is not Aikido's context, so why would you expect Aikido to work in it? I had this problem for years, and it took lot's of work for me to find the way out of the box.

[Janet Rosen]

WTF ??? - I guess you can take the girl out Brooklyn but not take the Brooklyn out of the girl :D

you talking to ME? :)

[Noreaster]

These comparisons between different arts are getting old and posts such as this have no substance. How many times have we heard ‘this martial art is better because’ or ‘this martial art is no good because of this.’ It seems some juvenile folks are searching for some perfect secret fighting style that will enable them to open a can of whoop @ss on all who would confront them. Well here is a little secret….no matter what art you study if you do not have heart you will always come up short regardless of what art you study be it BJJ, Aikido, Judo, Sambo, Krav Maga, Hapikido, Karate, etc.

[Michael Hackett]

Thanks to this video I now see the error of my ways. All these years studying aikido and all the decades using Koga's practical aikido as a police officer successfully were worthless and I now see the light of truth, justice and The American Way. I will quit aikido immediately, hide in a corner, and play my ukelele.

[gregstec]

you talking to ME? :)

No, it is 'Yo, youse talkin ta me' :)

oops, sorry, that's south Philly; pretty much the same as Brooklyn though:)

[Michael Hackett]

The cheesesteaks are better in Philly.....

[jackie adams]

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch!

BJJ/MMA taught me alot as an Aikidoka. It taught me that I really did not understand alot of things about fighting and the application of fighting and martial methodologies. So far that most valuable lesson in life...THANK you BJJ/MMA.

Now, on that note, I STILL do and practice aikido. and there is a reason for that. Given correct training and the correct perspective and understanding of why we should and do train in aikido. it is a very good methodology for training.

The problem lies in the fact that many in our practice of AIkido do not understand these things and go out and write checks they cannot cash. It really is as simple as that and their failings do not prove or disprove the practice of Aikido..for the right reasons.

This wasn't a problem for me. I got my ass handed to me by a BJJer so I started studying BJJ. So now I can competently handle the criticism. Problem is...too many people want to make excuses and find out ways to avoid going outside of their comfort zones.

Not saying everyone should go out and study BJJ, but if you want to gripe about it and it is an issue for you...then maybe some time with a guy that is good with takedowns and figuring out how to answer the problem set is time well spent. Just saying.

This video? This is a judo shiai. Why would anyone expect an Aikidoka to do better than a ranked Judoka in a Judo shiai?

Tho only embarrassing thing that I see here is that anyone would make such claims about aikido,let alone judging from a video such as this.Each aikidoka has his own level of ability,training and choices to be judged by but they don't reflect on aikido as an martial art or it's effectiveness.By the way,every aikidoka who respects himself has a cool ponytail.Hahaha!

I agree with the idea that this wasn't a serious attempt at sparring. Rather than feel ashamed at his performance, I like that he was trying some things out and working on his "game." Unless there is more information about the guys involved it's hard to pass judgement on his training...and the judo guy was pretty good sized and in good shape, which accounts for quite a bit. The Aikidoist never seemed to really try and seize control like the Judo guy did. So the questions I have are related to the idea that I didn't see any major attempts by the Aikido guy. Perhaps he was trying something very specific that was hard to see. I kept wishing there was no music so I could hear what they were saying.

Failure is a chance to work toward success. It looked very one-sided, but let's suppose this is a video of a shodan Aikidoka training with a sandan (for the sake of argument; not that rank is a valid marker for success, particularly in interdisciplinary randori). Even if he's a very highly ranked Aikidoka with a first year Judoka, as it was pointed out, this doesn't reflect on me or anyone else. I have a similar response when people talk about the decline of Aikido: "Is your training declining?"

There will always be people like me who make their chosen practices look bad in some way; de facto lessening the overall quality to some degree. What matters is how each of us engages our own training; not how others engage theirs. I have no problem with people thinking Aikido is a weak art full of [insert derogatory remarks here]. I'm confident there are folks who are dedicated to doing very serious work and creating very serious quality. Let's look to those examples when we try to define Aikido in the context of other arts.

The aikidoka that see no value in having a midlevel judoka (or fill in your fave/feared MA/venue) dump them are the ones you have to worry about.

Hello to everyone, even those mad at me. I hope the anger directed at me will recess, seeing the value in my comments to discuss ways to improve Aikido's paradigm. I will take your criticism to heart in improving my communication skills. The quotes at this point are the ones I liked to highlight for myself.

Of those angered by my comments and have expressed them, may I ask some sincere questions to you:

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.

My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.

[Mary Eastland]

My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.

How can you be embarrassed and shamed by actions of another?

[Aikibu]

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.


How much experience do you have with Aikido....How much experience do you have with any Martial Art?

William Hazen

[Cliff Judge]

Hello to everyone, even those mad at me. I hope the anger directed at me will recess, seeing the value in my comments to discuss ways to improve Aikido's paradigm. I will take your criticism to heart in improving my communication skills. The quotes at this point are the ones I liked to highlight for myself.

Of those angered by my comments and have expressed them, may I ask some sincere questions to you:

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.

My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.

Some thoughts:

1) Don't be in the contest in the first place. Aikido is not for any kind of fight that you choose to be in.

2) Step in and slam the Judo player with a yokomenuchi to the temple, or a shomenuchi to the forehead, or a series of these, to try to get him to raise an arm to defend himself. If he does so, do whatever you want to him.

3) Give the Judo player a sharp knife and tell him he has to really want to win this one.

4) Tell the Judo player you are absolutely not going to fight only him - you will take on a minimum of three Judo blackbelt.s if anybody hangs back their team is disqualified.

5) Walk into the gym with a six-pack of beers and then look at it and exclaim "Hey! How did my hakama just turn into a six-pack of beers! Aw geez. Look I am going to need some help finishing this six-pack off. Want to help?"

I have no idea if any of these would work, but I am really tired of seeing Aikidoka standing there in front of a sport combat guy, waiting for a clean, committed attack that they can do a technique on.

[Mary Eastland]

The Aikido gentleman was caring a bit of extra weight...that does not mean he is out of shape.

We have no idea what the intention of the video is. It does not look like a contest to me or a fight. It looks like a couple of guys trying some stuff out.

[jackie adams]

How much experience do you have with Aikido....How much experience do you have with any Martial Art?

William Hazen

Mr. William Hazen. I will be glad to answer your questions kindly. I thank you for taking so much interest and placing so much interest in me. As a humble person, I hope I will not disappoint you. The later part of 17 years Aikido under two Sensei's. First one I can't name that sensei for personal reasons, no use working up the past. Second one was Hector Suarez. Who I considered to be a great sensei. I also studied under a friend of Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. I had the honor to meet and be trained by "The Jet" on many occasions. At the time it was called kick boxing, I was a competitive fighter for many years in my youth. To enhance my kick boxing skills I took many seminar opportunities to learn Muay Thai during those years. I took jujutsu under the late K.Yonezawa back when he was teaching seminars yearly down in San Diego. I learn some Vietnamese Shaolin Kung Fu under a friend Chien Nguyen who was a monk at the time in a temple, for about 2 1/2 years. In my younger days, I was a rebel who like to street fight as well. Until one day when reality slapped me in the head.

I was shot at, missing me. Being threatened, with a Buck Knife 120 General in the hand of ill intentioned field worker and backed up by friends. Yes, I honestly didn't know the women I slept with was his wife. He had justified cause. But all of those guys did regret their error to threaten me with violence.

The fighting with bikers back in the day was also not a good idea. No matter how many you beat they keep looking for you, now-a-days they just pull a gun and kill you, they don't waste their time fighting anymore. New generations have no sense of sport. The later generations of bikers are more violent today than back in the day. What meth will do to you, ugly. How the world changes. All of which lead to my enlightenment, I wasn't immortal. I lived a violent life, it was unproductive. I was always fighting or ready to fight.

Overtime, I knew my luck someday would run out, I would make a mistake and it would cost me my life, or I would end up in prison. Something I see happen to many old tigers. It was suggested to me I take Aikido because it would kept me out of trouble, the focus wasn't on fighting but refining a skill. Maybe because I was older I really got into Aikido, and appreciated what Aikido offered. Aikido did appeal to the fighter in me, little did I know it would curb that spirit. It was years later did I realize how it challenged that fighter spirit away from violence to challenging myself.

How about you, please share your personal experiences and background, I would greatly enjoy hearing from you, I will be looking forward to your comment on the questions I asked too. In the spirit of Aikido, have a great day.

[gregstec]

The cheesesteaks are better in Philly.....

psst, I got a news flash for you - there are no real cheesesteaks, nor hoagies, outside the Philly area - the secret is in the role - :drool:

Greg

[gregstec]

Jackie, where do you see anger in any of the responses? I did not see any, just some folks questioning your points and motives in this thread. To be honest, I am very confused about your motives as well - you comes across way too polite and formal for this informal type of forum to the point it appears condescending to me, your background just does not jive with your communications persona, and until I read the info on your background, I would have swore you were female and not male simply based on the way you come across in your posts (no sexism intended here folks, so don't jump on that since Jackie is more a female name than male)

Anyway, to me, you appear to be an enigma that is hard to follow.

Greg

[jackie adams]

William, may I continue, As I am on the roll with my life story, I am not injury free either. Fighting isn't like in the movies where you don't get hit or hurt. Laundry list of injuries, broke nose several times, broken hand, bruised intestine, crack ribs, joint damage to tendons from being torqued on, eyes swollen shut, broken toes, bruised hands, feet and ribs, tail bone broken, cracked and missing teeth, broken lip (to many times to count) that is deformed, bruising on face and body from being punched and kicked, concussions, a bit missing from my tongue. That is just from training.

Injuries from street fighting paralleled training injuries, but more severely. I was never KO'd in a street fight. I have been cut too, several times, got a few lovely scars. Hit by secondary weapons, a bat for example. Hit by nunchucks in a street fight. Been hit by a fist holding a roll of quarters. Fought people high on drugs, cocaine and PCP to be exact. Yes, violence has it's price. No one really wins. I take lots of meds. I have an eye I can't see out of very well, I had nerve damage, my hand trembles. The right eye socket was broken. Makes for a pretty face. I call my injury scars tattoos, I do have a tats on my fore arms. I don't have the best knees in the world. My body is 10 year older than it should be because of fighting. Staying in shape and good health helps too. I can only run a few miles at time on a treadmill to keep from destroying my knees.

I am sure you would also like to know that I am gay. I feel saying am gay is still taboo in the martial arts. Though I have never been attracted to my training partners. I was in the closet for years. I never enjoyed sex with women, it never felt right. I was never really turned on my a naked woman. In those days when I was in the closet, there wasn't the support as there is now. I think if I had the support I wouldn't have fought so much in my youth. Aikido helped with coming out, and to be honest with myself.

Funny when you are asked a question, and you don't intend to share much, you end up sharing more than you thought you would. I am glad though, maybe more than I needed to, putting me at the mercy of the flamers. Never the less it feels good to share. Thank you William Hazen.

[Michael Hackett]

Greg, I grew to love Philly cheesesteaks while stationed there, but found a great rival at Elsie's in Red Bank, NJ - it IS the roll!

[Gorgeous George]

I think this video raises some very valid points about aikido:

The inability of the aikidoka to counter the judoka, or throw him.

The insistence by some in this thread, that aptitude in what aikido is supposedly teaching you, is irrelevant.

Why are you practicing controlling people who grab you, if you ultimately...can't control someone who grabs you?
You can talk about your high-minded philosophy of not caring about winning and losing, and how you don't want an ego - but if that's true, you would be willing to spar/compete, completely content in the knowledge that it doesn't matter if you win or lose.

Seems to me, a lot of people take solace in aikido, because they'll never truly be challenged - and even when their supposed skills ultimately fail, they then hide behind a nonsense about it not mattering...how can it not matter?: you've spent years learning to do something, and you just found out you never learned it - you've wasted your time.

I see peoples' gradings - intermediate kyu, and even dan grades - and i'm frequently shocked, and embarrassed by the things people get away with; a lack of any real ability - not in 'fighting', but in the things these people are supposedly working to learn within a pre-rehearsed kata - is apparent, and yet nobody sees this as a problem (presumably because of enlightenment, or some such thing...).
Let me ask this: where does growth come from, without hardship?

You can learn more about your ability in five minutes of judo/BJJ sparring, than in five months of a lot of aikido styles - if you're truly humble, rather than someone determined to hang onto their delusions through meaningless platitudes: 'I don't want to learn to fight.', etc..
Many people were attracted to aikido through stories of the early days, when aikidoka showed they were the real deal by supposedly throwing skilled judoka - nowadays, ability in the things you're supposedly learning, is irrelevant...

[gregstec]

Greg, I grew to love Philly cheesesteaks while stationed there, but found a great rival at Elsie's in Red Bank, NJ - it IS the roll!
Red Bank is close, but still not the same - I did some time in the area in 73 at fort monmouth for crypto school; still went home on the weekends for the cheeesesteaks (and to see the girl friend) :)

greg

[Aikibu]

William, may I continue, Thank you William Hazen.

Your Welcome. :) Me not much...In short... 42 years in the Martial Arts...Tang So Doo with Chuck Norris when I was a boy (Yes that Chuck Norris), Judo,Karate,Wrestling, and Boxing when I got older, Airborne Ranger on Active Duty and Special Forces in the Reserves and then a break till I got sober and stopped brawling. :D For the last 22 years Aikido Shoji Nishio Ryu and exploring various other arts to improve and enhance my Aikido. Hoping to learn better Aiki one of these days soon.:)

There we've compared Johnsons :)...Now you've been in Aikido for a while and your telling me that it's not Martially Effective? Well then with all due respect your Aikido sucks and I respectfully disagree that it's Aikido as an Art that sucks. That being said to us Aikido must be effective against other Arts or it's not a budo it's (A Shoji Nishio used to say) "just dancing"

Granted in my experience it takes allot of hard work to be considered competent much less good at Aikido (or any Martial Art) and most folks don't have the gumption or want to put in the work. But there are plenty who have and some who really focus on making Aikido "work" against other Martial Arts for example Chris Hein and some others who have posted on this thread.

So can you help me... as I am confused. You posted one video...Stated Aikido does not appear to "work" and yet there appears to be a disconnect between your experience and your opinion. Would you mind clarifying this for me. :)

William Hazen

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Considering who the Judo guy is, I bet he was around the 10% of what he is capable. Were this a real fight the Aikido guy would be out in 0.2 without knowing what happened to him.

And what Kevin said in #12

[lbb]

"Discuss the ways to improve Aikido's paradigm" sounds like the sort of thing you'd hear in a death-by-Powerpoint presentation...but assuming that it does have some meaning and that that meaning has something to do with improving aikido, I think you've chosen the wrong venue. Perhaps you should get involved in a teaching committee or something of that nature, if you want to sound a call to action.

[Aikibu]

Tohei over 50 years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-0RFvgy7-0

Notice the difference? Center... Balance...Stance....Irimi...Control...and this was old timey stuff with no atemi.

Now James if I had posted this and then said Aikido was superior to grappling would that be accurate?

Of course not.

The tools are only as good as the master who wields them. :)



William Hazen

[Shadowfax]

Mr. William Hazen. I will be glad to answer your questions kindly. I thank you for taking so much interest and placing so much interest in me. As a humble person, I hope I will not disappoint you. The later part of 17 years Aikido under two Sensei's. .

I'm confused... according to your introduction post you have been training in aikido for 10 years not the later part of 17...

[Janet Rosen]

The cheesesteaks are better in Philly.....

Um.... sorry....people from Brooklyn know better than to recognize a cheesesteak as something to be desired, or eaten.
Pizza. Pasta fagiole and baked ziti. Deli. Chinese. Middle Eastern. Fresh seafood. Those are foods.
Sheesh.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Jackie wrote:

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.



1. Teach me to screw a nail with a screw driver.
2. Can you screw a nail with a screw driver?
3. What are the major faults as to why you can't screw a nail with a Screw Driver?

Jackie, no anger at all here...just trying to demonstrate the flawed logic you are using. Wrong methodology (tool) for the wrong job.

So you want to defeat an judoka using Aikido? It is also like saying lets go bow hunting with a shotgun.

Judo and Aikido are both forms of jiu jitsu at their base level...both deal with controlling center and dominating your opponent in some fashion. So, based on the agreed upon context of practice....just like the screw driver as a tool, develop specifiicity for it's intended job (context)...judo and Aikido are no different.

Now, as a martial artist if you ask me how do I use the principles of aikido, that is an entirely different question. tehnique wise, looking at a video...a good judoka will use the exact same principles, but it will look like good judo. Just like you can use aiki prinicples to hammer a nail with a hammer and screw a screw with a screwdriver.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Some thoughts:

5) Walk into the gym with a six-pack of beers and then look at it and exclaim "Hey! How did my hakama just turn into a six-pack of beers! Aw geez. Look I am going to need some help finishing this six-pack off. Want to help?"

I have no idea if any of these would work, but I am really tired of seeing Aikidoka standing there in front of a sport combat guy, waiting for a clean, committed attack that they can do a technique on.

#5 is the best advice I have heard in a long time Cliff!

I've gotten quite adept at "setting" guys up for this kinda thing. Not just Aikido guys, but JKD, TKD, etc. Anyone that trains in a non-grappling based art. No different realy than what the Gracie's did in UFC 1 really.

How does this continue to work after all these years? It is not that BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu is necessarily "BETTER" than any other martial art. It is simply that BJJers of GJJers have a keen understanding of the standard "fight" environment....better than most. They understand the "ruleset" in which most people will agree to fight under, and they practice the range of combat and skills that will give them a significant advantage to win. Judoka and Sambo Players also are two other examples where you can find guys that understand this. Other non-grappling based arts....well for newbs...and some non newbs too...they don't get it. They simply do not understand the context and applcation of what they do. Many simply also really do not understand the dynamics of what goes on in a real fight.

Knife and weapons fights..who wins? not necessarily the guy that has the knife, although that is usually a good indicator. It is the guy that can get ahead of the OODA loop process and disrupt and control his opponent.

We simply do not get this concept very well in TMA arts IMO. We always start typically from positions of parity and equal advantage/knowledge of what is going to happen. We don't practice for the "aw crap" factor or how to regain control of the fight. Those are important things that most TMAs stay away from for the sake of prioritizing the learning of good, solid proper technique or structure. Fighting is shunned for the most part with the exception of a small amount of randori which is typically done as a random mess or mele that ends up with two guys struggling out of breath and one guy dominating the other eventually. All this is dismissed as "fighting" or "struggling" and deemed "bad" as it builds "bad habits". A poor excuse if you ask me for dismissing the very thing we should be trying to solve!

So, you can study whatever you study in the dojo for 20 years...but if you don't "get real" with it and explore the nature and problems that are created through randori properly...well you are never really going to learn how to manage a fight. It is a pretty simple understanding if you ask me.

Now, it is okay if this is NOT your goal, as there are lots of other good reasons to explore stuff and learn principles without fighting. Heck some of the best teachers and mentors I have, I don't consider fighters at all, but they are the guys i'd turn to to learn a particular thing I have problems with. So, there is much value beyond fighitng to be had.

However, if it is a priority of your's to learn fighting, well you need to study fighting. Want to defeat a boxer..understand boxing.

As Sun Tzu said. "know your enemy and yourself."

[Michael Hackett]

Alas, poor Janet, stuck now on the Left Coast and resigned to a diet of twigs, nuts, and the occasional spotted owl. People probably don't know the difference between sauce and gravy where you are.

[dps]

[
1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful. [QUOTE]


The main difference between the Judo and Aikido guys in the video is they were trained for encounters at different distances. As close as they were in the video the Judo guy had the advantage. If they were further apart and the Judo guy had to step across a larger distance to attack, the Aikido guy would be better able to use Aikido technique.

No attack no Aikido

dps

[JanP]

Jackie, tis the judo guy your boyfriend ? ...and by the way a fast Nikyo would do a lot of damage to any wrist.

[gregstec]

Um.... sorry....people from Brooklyn know better than to recognize a cheesesteak as something to be desired, or eaten.
Pizza. Pasta fagiole and baked ziti. Deli. Chinese. Middle Eastern. Fresh seafood. Those are foods.
Sheesh.

Yeah, we have all those too; PLUS cheesesteaks :D

[Cliff Judge]

How does this continue to work after all these years? It is not that BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu is necessarily "BETTER" than any other martial art. It is simply that BJJers of GJJers have a keen understanding of the standard "fight" environment....better than most. They understand the "ruleset" in which most people will agree to fight under, and they practice the range of combat and skills that will give them a significant advantage to win. Judoka and Sambo Players also are two other examples where you can find guys that understand this. Other non-grappling based arts....well for newbs...and some non newbs too...they don't get it. They simply do not understand the context and applcation of what they do. Many simply also really do not understand the dynamics of what goes on in a real fight.


I think BJJ has adapted to a ruleset that exists in a sweet spot of competitive martial arts where the goal - submission - translates particularly well to other contexts / rulesets (you can submit a Judo player, you can submit a mugger, etc) while the amount of physical damage you inflict is very managable. So a BJJ player competing against a practitioner of another art is going to find it relatively easy to make the other guy play by BJJ rules.

(...and then BJJ people get this attitude that no other martial art is worth anything at all, and I have to endure those fricking videos with the no-touch atemi guy popping up on facebook every year, with "hey isn't this the stuff Cliff does?" inevitable appearing in the comments)

Striking to knockout is the other dominant paradigm, though it is on the other end of the "managable amounts of physical damage" spectrum. :crazy:


However, if it is a priority of your's to learn fighting, well you need to study fighting. Want to defeat a boxer..understand boxing.


That is actually the best way for an Aikido guy to beat a practitioner of a competitive martial art - train in that other art for awhile. Then make sure you are the same rank and weight class as the guy you are going to spar with! If you are still practicing Aikido when you do this, then you will be, by definition, using Aikido, because Aikido is a martial way and not just a set of techniques. :D

[phitruong]

wondered why the aikido guy kept pulling back and stuck his butt out behind? also wonder if he understood the concept of irimi? it's a game of real estate and the aikido guy kept giving up his.

now i wonder if i would look good with a pony tail and a goatee. might be a problem since hairs kept falling off with a case of getting old and all. :)

[Cliff Judge]

The main difference between the Judo and Aikido guys in the video is they were trained for encounters at different distances. As close as they were in the video the Judo guy had the advantage. If they were further apart and the Judo guy had to step across a larger distance to attack, the Aikido guy would be better able to use Aikido technique.


Nah, the Judoka would just carefully close the distance until they were at a range he was comfortable with. Then he'd get a grip and throw. The Aikido guy is never going to get the committed attack he is used to in training. The Aikido guy is much better off taking the initiative and doing something aggressive that is outside of the Judo box, like striking or something. Of course you might lose friends that way.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I think BJJ has adapted to a ruleset that exists in a sweet spot of competitive martial arts where the goal - submission - translates particularly well to other contexts / rulesets (you can submit a Judo player, you can submit a mugger, etc) while the amount of physical damage you inflict is very managable. So a BJJ player competing against a practitioner of another art is going to find it relatively easy to make the other guy play by BJJ rules.

(...and then BJJ people get this attitude that no other martial art is worth anything at all, and I have to endure those fricking videos with the no-touch atemi guy popping up on facebook every year, with "hey isn't this the stuff Cliff does?" inevitable appearing in the comments)

Striking to knockout is the other dominant paradigm, though it is on the other end of the "managable amounts of physical damage" spectrum. :crazy:

That is actually the best way for an Aikido guy to beat a practitioner of a competitive martial art - train in that other art for awhile. Then make sure you are the same rank and weight class as the guy you are going to spar with! If you are still practicing Aikido when you do this, then you will be, by definition, using Aikido, because Aikido is a martial way and not just a set of techniques. :D

good synopsis of the issue Cliff. lol. on the no-touch atemi. It is too bad that BJJers get exposed to aikido guys that can't explain the conditions/context of there practice. THe challenge for me has been to "bridge" between the two practices. That is, in order to show an BJJer the benefits of Aikido, you have to discuss it and demonstrate it in a context that makes sense to him. Hard to do if you don't have at least a "mid-level" grasp of BJJ. Vice versa as well. Hard to demonstrate the value of BJJ to an aikido guy unless you can understand the context/application of aikido principles in BJJ.

[Basia Halliop]

I wasn't embarrassed or sad watching that video, for most of the reasons others have mentioned (it doesn't really have anything to do with me, I don't know what the ranks of the people are or who trained them, the 'aikido' guy was basically trying to do judo anyway rather than aikido, etc.), but also because I didn't even think there was anything particularly negative about that video, it was just a couple of people trying to learn -- I thought both guys, but especially the aikido guy, were showing a positive approach to learning, being curious, asking questions, trying to get better, trying to see what would work well or not in different situations.

I rather admire someone who will go search out a training partner or situation or set of rules where they're at a disadvantage, for whatever reasons, and play around a bit and see what they can learn from that person.

[Chris Parkerson]

Where's the embarrassing part? I guess the title of the video is accurate, but what I see is an aikido guy seeing if he can do anything against a judo guy. You see several times that he has ideas of things he could do, using atemi/etc, but in the context of what they're doing (friendly training/testing) he's obviously not going to do that. Props to him for playing like this.

If you think it's all about kuzushi, what is the aikido guy missing to allow him to get kuzushi on someone clearly intent on downing him? 1000 more reps of ikkyo? 5000 shihonage's? more "hard training"?

Hal Von Luebbert (my judo coach) used to argue with Phil Porter that training harder (till you puke) would not produce any different results. This video is a good case in point. The Aikido man should have learned allot about strategy and adaptation from this encounter.

And the I here t lessons are available to all who watch it.

1) if you cannot get the opponent to give you some juice (look at Tohei's judo aikido rondoris) you may need to adapt your aiki into smaller circles so it will create the juice you need for kuzushi.

2) if you resort to pulling on an opponent's sleeve, collar or torso, you are doing judo. The same grips can be used, but you must push from behind. Age-sage, placing your center at the conjunction point of the push (behind/under) must be a subtle process.

3) kata teaches principles that are expressed most often by going through 3 joints -( shoulder, elbow and wrist). Use the same principles by going throughout the torso or shoulders only. Yes, the aiki looks like Mifune's judo. But that is aiki under these conditions.

4. Learn what Sensei Ledyard calls seems and the Ikkyo curve. You cannot get kuzushi on a trained grappler sloping. Every effort must be on the seam.

Just my observations from a few years playing similar experiments.

[Chris Parkerson]

wondered why the aikido guy kept pulling back and stuck his butt out behind? also wonder if he understood the concept of irimi? it's a game of real estate and the aikido guy kept giving up his.
:)

Funny, when you pull back on an immovable object ( when you separate centers) you end up with you but going back. You can only keep posture if the object moves or if you close centers. Belly to belly is still aiki. But you Gotha create instability in the spine and bleeds the instability along the seem or you are just using linear force. We need to experiment training circular force at the belly to belly range.

[phitruong]

We need to experiment training circular force at the belly to belly range.

ya, we called it "huggy waza", as in, go in and hug the other bugger and see if you break his balance. sumo anyone? didn't Takeda sumo when he was young?

[Mark Gibbons]

The main difference between the Judo and Aikido guys in the video is they were trained for encounters at different distances. As close as they were in the video the Judo guy had the advantage. If they were further apart and the Judo guy had to step across a larger distance to attack, the Aikido guy would be better able to use Aikido technique.

No attack no Aikido

dps

I don't think distance is really the issue. Your statement seems to be that an attacker with more momentum than the judo guy had would be easier for the aikido guy to deal with. Well sure. Try a higher momentum attack on a judo player sometime. I think they'll also be pretty comfortable with that attack.

Regards,
Mark

[Chris Parkerson]

Mark,

You said, "I don't think distance is really the issue. Your statement seems to be that an attacker with more momentum than the judo guy had would be easier for the aikido guy to deal with. Well sure. Try a higher momentum attack on a judo player sometime. I think they'll also be pretty comfortable with that attack."

Would you tell us more about your experience with this. What kind of momentum and what techniques do you use to make it happen in "huggy waza"?

[Aikibu]

Well I hope everyone watched the clip I posted of Tohei. Since he seems to use "belly to belly" stuff. Also it's telling that questions about Aikido's "effectiveness" go back 60 years. LOL I don't think the clip of Aikido vs Judo guy is in anyway representative of Randori... they were just playing, and our Aikido friend in the clip had a nice pony tail but that's about it as far as demonstrating any semblance of technique. He did show Atemi on a couple of occasions but I would not allow a Judoka to grab and hold me and push me into an opening. Instead of entering the Aikidoka is always backing away allowing the Judoka to control his center. In the Tohei clip the moment the grappler makes contact with Tohei he presents an opening and Tohei immediately begins to counter which frustrates the grappler and makes him more aggressive while Tohei just allows him to enter everytime with the same result. any hold the grappler has on Tohei is just used against him. One could suggest that in that sense that is the way Judo is supposed to work too. Nishio Shihan (and I) studied Judo ( He was a 4th Dan me a 2nd Dan) and we're technically able to counter Judo...

It's just a matter of being able to execute and again that's on me. :)

William Hazen

[Chris Parkerson]

Nah, the Judoka would just carefully close the distance until they were at a range he was comfortable with. Then he'd get a grip and throw. The Aikido guy is never going to get the committed attack he is used to in training. The Aikido guy is much better off taking the initiative and doing something aggressive that is outside of the Judo box, like striking or something. Of course you might lose friends that way.

Funny how a knife attacker would thoroughly change the traditional judo man's style. If he did not compensate, a Silat or eskrima knife cuts him at every entry and cuts him at every attempt at a finishing move. I am not talking about restricted knife Kata. I am talking about the man who knows knives.

Similarly, aiki came from the tactics of samurai who used long (comparatively heavy) blades. The
moves and entries compensate for the presence of these blades in most traditional kata. This has often been a sticking point for me (pun fully intended). My aiki works great with a blade in my
hand. And I am happy to rondori with most any style under these conditions.
I study and practice 6 different arts. Yes, I am a bit of a fanatic. But aiki strategy is not about
besting a different style by becoming the best practitioner of it. Strategy is about looking at their
training practices, picking up on their silent assumptions, and changing the terrain so that the bulk
of what they train in get's shut down from the get go.
The Judo man trains without blades for the most part and sport Judo is a sucker for the hidden
knife.

Kali players love the medio and corto range, training tappy tappy drills. If you can crash their line
by touching center and create kuzushi, you can bypass this tactical strength. Then your throw
must be a fight stopper as you continue to cut the falling opponent.
Aiki is a strategy. Atemi (contact or just maneuvering to shut down an angle, zone or intent)
dominates an opponents mistakes and openings.
Judo man? Standing knee breaks and fighting from the flank (Russian 2 on 1 grips) with a knife in one hand thoroughly confuses the traditionalist. Add 3 knives (2 to throw and 1 to go) to crask his carefully planned contact and he'll likely be be thoroughly confused.

[Aikibu]

Well Chris... Knives are a wholly different paradigm and I know I don't train enough with them since I left the service. Hopefully one of these days we'll hookup and practice together. :)

William Hazen

[Chris Parkerson]

Mark and I were doing tappy tappy last Sunday hubud lubud and a few others).
He was trying to pull me into a long drawn out Ikkyo front takedown but the sweat caused too much slippage - not unlike what we see in this judo aikido video but without gi.

It is hard to create kuzushi when the center is guarded like in tappy drills or with this cautious judo man. But traditional ippon dori done with small circle at the shoulder works just fine to accomplish the same Ikkyo take down. But you must change the entry strategy. Same with this judo man in the clip.

You cannot go into a linear or big circle "yin" receiving of an attack if the opponent's center is guarded. But if you apply aiki center touching (like a sonar pinging forward) kuzushi begins at the opponent's far left toe and a small dynamic sphere happens as you bleed the kuzushi forward into the toes of both feet - along what Ledyard calls the "seam" - a simple Ikkyo curve. Crash the line
and make it happen.

Fun stuff with or without a knife.

[Chris Parkerson]

Well Chris... Knives are a wholly different paradigm and I know I don't train enough with them since I left the service. Hopefully one of these days we'll hookup and practice together. :)

William Hazen

I believe You and I have been destined to meet for a few years now. I have always enjoyed your wisdom and approach. I welcome the chance to hook up.

[sakumeikan]

Hello to everyone, even those mad at me. I hope the anger directed at me will recess, seeing the value in my comments to discuss ways to improve Aikido's paradigm. I will take your criticism to heart in improving my communication skills. The quotes at this point are the ones I liked to highlight for myself.

Of those angered by my comments and have expressed them, may I ask some sincere questions to you:

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.

My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.
Dear Jackie,
Teach you how to beat a judoka?Simple, kick the Judoka in the crown jewels. If you think thays to drastic how about a kick on the kneecap, a nice head butt or better still grab the nearest 2inch by 4 inch piece of wood and crash it over the guys head.Why complicate matters?cheers, Joe,

[sakumeikan]

Funny how a knife attacker would thoroughly change the traditional judo man's style. If he did not compensate, a Silat or eskrima knife cuts him at every entry and cuts him at every attempt at a finishing move. I am not talking about restricted knife Kata. I am talking about the man who knows knives.

Similarly, aiki came from the tactics of samurai who used long (comparatively heavy) blades. The
moves and entries compensate for the presence of these blades in most traditional kata. This has often been a sticking point for me (pun fully intended). My aiki works great with a blade in my
hand. And I am happy to rondori with most any style under these conditions.
I study and practice 6 different arts. Yes, I am a bit of a fanatic. But aiki strategy is not about
besting a different style by becoming the best practitioner of it. Strategy is about looking at their
training practices, picking up on their silent assumptions, and changing the terrain so that the bulk
of what they train in get's shut down from the get go.
The Judo man trains without blades for the most part and sport Judo is a sucker for the hidden
knife.

Kali players love the medio and corto range, training tappy tappy drills. If you can crash their line
by touching center and create kuzushi, you can bypass this tactical strength. Then your throw
must be a fight stopper as you continue to cut the falling opponent.
Aiki is a strategy. Atemi (contact or just maneuvering to shut down an angle, zone or intent)
dominates an opponents mistakes and openings.
Judo man? Standing knee breaks and fighting from the flank (Russian 2 on 1 grips) with a knife in one hand thoroughly confuses the traditionalist. Add 3 knives (2 to throw and 1 to go) to crask his carefully planned contact and he'll likely be be thoroughly confused.
Dear Chris,
Loved the end quote about seeing the moon clearer.Cheers, Joe

[Noreaster]

Well I hope everyone watched the clip I posted of Tohei. Since he seems to use "belly to belly" stuff. Also it's telling that questions about Aikido's "effectiveness" go back 60 years. LOL I don't think the clip of Aikido vs Judo guy is in anyway representative of Randori... they were just playing, and our Aikido friend in the clip had a nice pony tail but that's about it as far as demonstrating any semblance of technique. He did show Atemi on a couple of occasions but I would not allow a Judoka to grab and hold me and push me into an opening. Instead of entering the Aikidoka is always backing away allowing the Judoka to control his center. In the Tohei clip the moment the grappler makes contact with Tohei he presents an opening and Tohei immediately begins to counter which frustrates the grappler and makes him more aggressive while Tohei just allows him to enter everytime with the same result. any hold the grappler has on Tohei is just used against him. One could suggest that in that sense that is the way Judo is supposed to work too. Nishio Shihan (and I) studied Judo ( He was a 4th Dan me a 2nd Dan) and we're technically able to counter Judo...

It's just a matter of being able to execute and again that's on me. :)

William Hazen

Spot on!

[phitruong]

The Judo man trains without blades for the most part and sport Judo is a sucker for the hidden
knife.
.

nah! don't need blades to muck with the judo folks.

[phitruong]

nah! don't need blades to muck with the judo folks.

was going to put another line. if i have to resort to blades to handle judo folks, then my aiki sucks big time, which means i have to punish myself by eating a dozen donuts to get rid of my depression which would require extra heavy coffee and medium rare steaks and ....

[Marc Abrams]

was going to put another line. if i have to resort to blades to handle judo folks, then my aiki sucks big time, which means i have to punish myself by eating a dozen donuts to get rid of my depression which would require extra heavy coffee and medium rare steaks and ....

Red Wine Dammit, Don't forget the Red Wine! Nothing really goes better with medium rare steaks! When you are done with the bottle, simply smash it over the offending person's head.....

Marc Abrams

[Aikibu]

Mark and I were doing tappy tappy last Sunday hubud lubud and a few others).
He was trying to pull me into a long drawn out Ikkyo front takedown but the sweat caused too much slippage - not unlike what we see in this judo aikido video but without gi.

It is hard to create kuzushi when the center is guarded like in tappy drills or with this cautious judo man. But traditional ippon dori done with small circle at the shoulder works just fine to accomplish the same Ikkyo take down. But you must change the entry strategy. Same with this judo man in the clip.

You cannot go into a linear or big circle "yin" receiving of an attack if the opponent's center is guarded. But if you apply aiki center touching (like a sonar pinging forward) kuzushi begins at the opponent's far left toe and a small dynamic sphere happens as you bleed the kuzushi forward into the toes of both feet - along what Ledyard calls the "seam" - a simple Ikkyo curve. Crash the line
and make it happen.

Fun stuff with or without a knife.

Agreed... and Mark is good... but I am better. :D LOL (just ribbing you Mark) Forget Ikkyo and Nikkyo a little Irimi Nage and it's many variations seems to work best for me "belly to belly" :) Ippon Dori sounds good too. In my experience with drills... most Aikidoka seem to get "lost" by taking their focus off Uke's center and concentrate on the arm. This just tells me they have not made the transition from basic arm grab practice in class to Irimi. When I see someone do this... I just roll with it and crash into their center as a gentle reminder. :) To a BJJ or Judo Guy it's like handing yourself over on a silver platter. That in my opinion was the Aikido dudes issue on the vid.The Judoka would take his mind by grabbing his arm and then woosh! He was on his back. :D and you're right when you enter (aka crash the line) thats when the magic may happen though you're fooling yourself if you don't think a Judoka or Grappler does not know how to handle this. So the hard part in Aikido is to make sure they "come to you" by you staying open or as Shoji Nishio puts it Yurusu Aiki aka "Accept The Attack."

Easy to describe but unless you practice "live"... very hard to do. :) (Just ask my chin or backside. :D)

William Hazen

PS. It's one reason some folks hate to train with me as their Uke because I was taught that without a sincere effort Nage would never learn anything... Indeed... weak attacks will actually erode a Nage's chances to improve. Thats another thing to take away from Tohei's vid. :) If you don't learn to "use it"... you will definitely never "have it".... when you "need it". :)

[Chris Parkerson]

was going to put another line. if i have to resort to blades to handle judo folks, then my aiki sucks big time, which means i have to punish myself by eating a dozen donuts to get rid of my depression which would require extra heavy coffee and medium rare steaks and ....

Ok, I am an old fart who loves the old West but never understood Roy Rogers. Gunfights weren't fair but some gunfighters used the equivalent of a "Life giving sword". I am no athlete anymore and think it is sophomoric to play by rules.

So I carry a tactical folder instead of a tanto. Sometimes I carry a left handed blade for those tricky fellas that grab your right pocket when they crash the line. Thats my wakazashi substitute. Then I often carry my cold Steele vaquero grande if I am in the badlands. "Now that's a knife", said Crocodile Dundee when confronted by a street punk. That is my katana.
Aiki strategy. Aiki Techniques are the same. But I can choose whether to use a death dealing, life
giving or "no sword" response. Fiddlededoo.
Is it the formalized theories or actual acts in the real world that define compassion and "love"?
As a fed, I never used lethal force though my jujitsu and Kenpo training began each technique as a lethal action. As a bodyguard, I have never cut anyone or shot them. But why bring fists to a knife
fight?

Rules? I slay that statue of the Buddha. With Ikkyo the iconoclast monk, I say:
"that stone Buddha deserves all the birdshit it gets
I wave my skinny arms like a tall flower in the wind".

Now, for a favorite "compassionate technique" when confronted by that darn knife fighter who swore he wanted to fight you with Queensbury Rules.

Colonel Mark Mile's (belted by Masato Tamura in 1938), with his famous flying knee break. It was designed by him for WWII Paramarines to face unarmed against a Japanese bayonet by sliding under the angle of attack like a bowling ball rolling through pens (the knee).

http://m.myspace.com/home.wap?bfd=webnext&isredirected=true#me.photo/pic/335864210/667914/2058646

[BarryB]

Ok, time to set the record straight. I'm the aikidoka in the video. As most of you have figured out it was NOT a real competition. I agreed NOT to do any joint locks or distracting atemi and see if Mark could unbalance me. So, yes I was playing Judo as an experiment. Additionally, he's a san dan with a lot of competitions under his belt. I didn't even know it was on video until it turned up here, it was nothing more than a friendly "lets see what happens". There is no valid comparison since, as you can plainly see he is not attacking as any aikidoka needs an uke to do in order to perform technique. Also, the Ma ai is no good for me either as most of you have noticed, we could have knocked each others teeth out with no technique at all. I'd never let anyone that close on the street or in an uncontrolled environment.I freely admit to never being able to take advantage of him given the agreed upon parameters but, again I'm not a judoka. I had put on a seminar at his dojo because, they were interested to see the similarities and differences in the respective arts. Some of you get it, some don't and some should think before they speak or put anything in print and show their foolishness and inexperience.

[phitruong]

Red Wine Dammit, Don't forget the Red Wine! Nothing really goes better with medium rare steaks! When you are done with the bottle, simply smash it over the offending person's head.....

Marc Abrams

yes, i am rightly corrected. import or domestic? :)

[phitruong]

Ok, I am an old fart who loves the old West but never understood Roy Rogers. Gunfights weren't fair but some gunfighters used the equivalent of a "Life giving sword". I am no athlete anymore and think it is sophomoric to play by rules.



we are talking about playing with judo folks in a friendly setting to see what each others can do, right? if this is a real life short of thing, i'd go with the marine approach: bomb you from the distance, shell you, riffle, then pistol and grenade, then knives, then teeth, then your mother-in-law or maybe drop your mother-in-law on you first, then bomb, then .... well you got me? :D

[Rob Watson]

Ok, time to set the record straight. I'm the aikidoka in the video. As most of you have figured out it was NOT a real competition. I agreed NOT to do any joint locks or distracting atemi and see if Mark could unbalance me. So, yes I was playing Judo as an experiment. Additionally, he's a san dan with a lot of competitions under his belt. I didn't even know it was on video until it turned up here, it was nothing more than a friendly "lets see what happens". There is no valid comparison since, as you can plainly see he is not attacking as any aikidoka needs an uke to do in order to perform technique. Also, the Ma ai is no good for me either as most of you have noticed, we could have knocked each others teeth out with no technique at all. I'd never let anyone that close on the street or in an uncontrolled environment.I freely admit to never being able to take advantage of him given the agreed upon parameters but, again I'm not a judoka. I had put on a seminar at his dojo because, they were interested to see the similarities and differences in the respective arts. Some of you get it, some don't and some should think before they speak or put anything in print and show their foolishness and inexperience.

Thanks for that. Some see what they want. Others can see deeper. None can tell what goes on inside the others head.

[Chris Parkerson]

... most Aikidoka seem to get "lost" by taking their focus off Uke's center and concentrate on the arm. This just tells me they have not made the transition from basic arm grab practice in class to Irimi. When I see someone do this... I just roll with it and crash into their center as a gentle reminder. :) To a BJJ or Judo Guy it's like handing yourself over on a silver platter. That in my opinion was the Aikido dudes issue on the vid.The Judoka would take his mind by grabbing his arm and then woosh! He was on his back. :D and you're right when you enter (aka crash the line) thats when the magic may happen though you're fooling yourself if you don't think a Judoka or Grappler does not know how to handle this. So the hard part in Aikido is to make sure they "come to you" by you staying open or as Shoji Nishio puts it Yurusu Aiki aka "Accept The Attack."

Easy to describe but unless you practice "live"... very hard to do. :) (Just ask my chin or backside. :D)

William Hazen

PS. It's one reason some folks hate to train with me as their Uke because I was taught that without a sincere effort Nage would never learn anything... Indeed... weak attacks will actually erode a Nage's
chances to improve. Thats another thing to take away from Tohei's vid. :) If you don't learn to "use it"...
you will definitely never "have it".... when you "need it". :)[/QUOTE]

Great post! : )

[Chris Parkerson]

we are talking about playing with judo folks in a friendly setting to see what each others can do, right? if this is a real life short of thing, i'd go with the marine approach: bomb you from the distance, shell you, riffle, then pistol and grenade, then knives, then teeth, then your mother-in-law or maybe drop your mother-in-law on you first, then bomb, then .... well you got me? :D

I guess I get lost in the many and often conflicting Aikido practices.

(1) while I carry weapons and act with compassion, i choose compassion. Bombs are legally indiscriminate and mindless.
(2) Often aikidoka train with bokken, tanto and katana and weapon against weapon in kata. to what end?
(3) The side of my knife is some of the best aiki-no-jitsu I have experienced. No cuts at all on uke.
(4) are we doing a sport Aikido vice Judo as an end in itself learning how one sport can dominate other styles with rules they benefit by? Or are we silently assuming these two in a street confrontation is equal to what happens in sport rules.

For me, way too much conflicting data. I carry judo/jujitsu Aikijujitsu and many forms of pugilism and weapons work in my quiver. They all have aiki influence now. But I change tactics and stes when strategy demands it.

I am in worst shape than our aikidoka in the video. Under similar scenario that judo san Dan would likely do me harm without my knife to assist me.

[Chris Parkerson]

Thanks for that. Some see what they want. Others can see deeper. None can tell what goes on inside the others head.

Hey Robert,

In 2009, I tried a similar thing actually. There was allot of talk about Tai Chi internal training on this discussion site. At the Arnold Classic (Columbus, Ohio) Dr. Hsie Ming Hwang had sponsored "Extreme Tai Chi" as a competitive event. Everyone was invited to try and throw their opponents out of the ring or take them down. No face punching but open hand pushes were welcomed. No leg hooks but trips and all forms of Shuai Chou, Judo and wreswtling were fine.

I am deceent in Tai Chi, but what I brought to the game was an ujnderstanding of small circle pivot points I use in Aiki irimi tactics. Now, this style of fight is pretty linear in gross appearance. And Tai Chi guys protect their center with a wide variety of suppleness practices, rarely making the mistake of tightening their shoulders when pushing, and reading minutae to uproot others at the torso. But looking closer, you see the small circles in play.

This was a great leqarning experience. My Aiki was pretty good against the other players. I took 3rd place. A Shuai Chou/collegiate wrestler who was 30 years old and in his prime took second. Timothy Hwang (Tai Chi, Baji, and Shaolin) took first. He was 24 years old and trained with his father since he was a kid.

In this photo, I am uprooting Timothy.

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/20119628/Album

Lessons learned:
(1) Like Okamoto's Ropokai - "over", "under", "side", "side", "front", "back" are all good ways to create kuzushi. Also, like Okamoto, the circles have to be small and irimi must be subtle. Traditional Aikido techniques would not work. But my Aiki was there in little bitty circular movements attacking his spine and sometimes attacking his shoulder with a compression so I could link into his center. Thus, it looked like Tai Chi.

(2) Mits Yamashita once called Helio Gracie's ground work "Aikido on the ground". Little guys can indeed use small circle and relaxation to get the better of big guys. But you have to take the principles you learn from an Aiki art and translate it into the art you are practicing. My Aiki stumped Tim Hwang a little bit and for just aq little while. But he is an excellent Tai Chi man. I hear is also training judo now. He is near impossible to throw. He is a real force to recon with. He has his eyes on the Olympics.

(3) I will never try this again. I was 55 years old at the time and about 50 pounds overweight. Before the final bouts in the elimination match, my arches had fallen. The Shuai Chou guy was like a bull dozer during overtime and his thrusting palms shook my frame. My form began to suck and I paid a price in my back for about 4 months. Now days, I take knives to boxing matches. Win and lose are sophmoric illusions. Livinf and protecting my physical vulnerabilities is the way of the Tao.

For those who want to see extreme Tai Chi, check out this link. Tim hwang vs Jan C Childress. Watch Timothy's use of flexible spine and single weighte legs to literally suck-in" the opponent's attacks and spit them back out in any direction. Now that is Irimi on a whole different level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InDLB1-o9mI

[lbb]

Red Wine Dammit, Don't forget the Red Wine! Nothing really goes better with medium rare steaks! When you are done with the bottle, simply smash it over the offending person's head.....

How do you expect to ever win a fight if you eat medium rare steaks? Here's what you do:

1. Get a superior quality t-bone steak.
2. Show it a picture of the person who invented fire.
3. Eat.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Lot of talk about choice and control. That is, much of what it seems a lot of strategies and tactics are based on seem to assume that a certain degree of choice and control will be available to you. Also a lot of assuming away or eliminated variables. It is okay IMO to isolate conditions, but need to make sure we understand what the impacts of this measures are.

Things like "I wouldn't let him get that close"...... "I'd whip out my tactical folder".....

My point is be careful in your thinking....how much do you actually train when those variables are taking away? In most scenarios, I think in reality, we are in a hand to hand fight cause those things...namely distance, choice, and control have been taking away from us to some degree.

[Janet Rosen]

Ok, time to set the record straight. I'm the aikidoka in the video. As most of you have figured out it was NOT a real competition. I agreed NOT to do any joint locks or distracting atemi and see if Mark could unbalance me. So, yes I was playing Judo as an experiment. Additionally, he's a san dan with a lot of competitions under his belt. I didn't even know it was on video until it turned up here, it was nothing more than a friendly "lets see what happens". There is no valid comparison since, as you can plainly see he is not attacking as any aikidoka needs an uke to do in order to perform technique. Also, the Ma ai is no good for me either as most of you have noticed, we could have knocked each others teeth out with no technique at all. I'd never let anyone that close on the street or in an uncontrolled environment.I freely admit to never being able to take advantage of him given the agreed upon parameters but, again I'm not a judoka. I had put on a seminar at his dojo because, they were interested to see the similarities and differences in the respective arts. Some of you get it, some don't and some should think before they speak or put anything in print and show their foolishness and inexperience.
Thanks for stepping up and speaking! Yep, nothing for anybody, including you, to be embarrassed about - on the video. Maybe on this thread. :)

[Janet Rosen]

we are talking about playing with judo folks in a friendly setting to see what each others can do, right? if this is a real life short of thing, i'd go with the marine approach: bomb you from the distance, shell you, riffle, then pistol and grenade, then knives, then teeth, then your mother-in-law or maybe drop your mother-in-law on you first, then bomb, then .... well you got me? :D

Tactical Kim Chee, Phi, tactical kim chee. How many times I gotta remind you? :D

[phitruong]

I guess I get lost in the many and often conflicting Aikido practices.



i am not conflict about my aikido practice, other than that we should have better outfit, with zipper pants and velcro hakama (come in handy when you in the setting where there are spinning light globes and dollar bills) with different colors than black and blue. not the mention, the gi top should have pocket for the ipod, because i might want to listen to acid rocks while peacefully throwing people. :)

[phitruong]

Tactical Kim Chee, Phi, tactical kim chee. How many times I gotta remind you? :D

do you know how hard it is to carry a conceal ziplock bag of kimchee? every time you whip it out, in the most bad-ass location, mostly in the lunch room, folks would ask "can i try some?" and then you have a crowd control issue, then the bag gone empty before you know it and you didn't even have the chance to smell it!!! :D

[tlk52]

I wish people would stop putting this up as an example of "aikido vs grappeling"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-0RFvgy7-0

the guy is Herman, an older, out of shape, co-host for the TV show "rendezvous with adventure" and not a martial artist at all...

here's the original video of the TV show episode that the clip is from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KqenOzofQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZivUi5ob0

it's more an example of Tohei taking care not to injure a civilian who is a guest of the dojo...

[Chris Parkerson]

Lot of talk about choice and control. That is, much of what it seems a lot of strategies and tactics are based on seem to assume that a certain degree of choice and control will be available to you. Also a lot of assuming away or eliminated variables. It is okay IMO to isolate conditions, but need to make sure we understand what the impacts of this measures are.

Things like "I wouldn't let him get that close"...... "I'd whip out my tactical folder".....

My point is be careful in your thinking....how much do you actually train when those variables are taking away? In most scenarios, I think in reality, we are in a hand to hand fight cause those things...namely distance, choice, and control have been taking away from us to some degree.

Always enjoy your posts Kevin. My original home dojo is near Marine Corp Air Station in San Diego.
We get many recon and Marine Defensives trainers from there and Pendelton in attendance. One of my favorite tactics I am told they use at the invective is to coax a BJJ and Judo guy into a ground fight (an easy thing to do). But they draw their knife as they are falling to the ground and the BJJ guy is vying for an dominance as if they were in an unarmed sport match.

Now that's fair game to this old bugger and it protects my bad back.

Did you check out the Extreme Tai Chi I posted earlier in this thread? Jan Childress is a National Champion from the William C C Chen tradition. Tim Hwang literally dominates him. Close quarters demand small circle strategies.

[Aikibu]

Ok, time to set the record straight. I had put on a seminar at his dojo because, they were interested to see the similarities and differences in the respective arts. Some of you get it, some don't and some should think before they speak or put anything in print and show their foolishness and inexperience.

So how did the seminar go? :)

William Hazen

[hughrbeyer]

was going to put another line. if i have to resort to blades to handle judo folks, then my aiki sucks big time, which means i have to punish myself by eating a dozen donuts to get rid of my depression which would require extra heavy coffee and medium rare steaks and ....

Medium rare? Medium rare? Phi, I've lost all respect for you.:disgust:

[Kevin Leavitt]

Always enjoy your posts Kevin. My original home dojo is near Marine Corp Air Station in San Diego.
We get many recon and Marine Defensives trainers from there and Pendelton in attendance. One of my favorite tactics I am told they use at the invective is to coax a BJJ and Judo guy into a ground fight (an easy thing to do). But they draw their knife as they are falling to the ground and the BJJ guy is vying for an dominance as if they were in an unarmed sport match.

Now that's fair game to this old bugger and it protects my bad back.

Did you check out the Extreme Tai Chi I posted earlier in this thread? Jan Childress is a National Champion from the William C C Chen tradition. Tim Hwang literally dominates him. Close quarters demand small circle strategies.

One of my new "bosses" her in Germany is COL George Bristol, USMC...he founded MCMAP. Can't wait to get on the mat with COL Bristol. He comes with quite a background.

http://www.koryu.com/bio.html

[Cliff Judge]

We get many recon and Marine Defensives trainers from there and Pendelton in attendance. One of my favorite tactics I am told they use at the invective is to coax a BJJ and Judo guy into a ground fight (an easy thing to do). But they draw their knife as they are falling to the ground and the BJJ guy is vying for an dominance as if they were in an unarmed sport match.


While I was training some kali a couple of years ago, there was this practitioner with about seven years of training under his belt, and a new kid with a BJJ background. Three times I saw this exchange when they were practicing free flow together: The younger guy felt like he had an opening for a takedown and he took it, then he would try to go for an armbar....you would hear the older guy hit the mat and you would stop what you were doing and glance over, and see him tap quickly. Then, as he stood up, the BJJ kid would look down between his legs and see one of the very long, straight training knives right between his legs pointed straight at his jewels. The older guy would always say rather loudly, "Oh, excuse me, it looks like I dropped something, could you hand me those?"

This group had an adage passed down from one of their head people to the effect of, "Most fights may go to the ground, but they stay there exactly as long as it takes the faster guy to get a reverse grip [on one of his knives]."

[Chris Parkerson]

While I was training some kali a couple of years ago, there was this practitioner with about seven years of training under his belt, and a new kid with a BJJ background. Three times I saw this exchange when they were practicing free flow together: The younger guy felt like he had an opening for a takedown and he took it, then he would try to go for an armbar....you would hear the older guy hit the mat and you would stop what you were doing and glance over, and see him tap quickly. Then, as he stood up, the BJJ kid would look down between his legs and see one of the very long, straight training knives right between his legs pointed straight at his jewels. The older guy would always say rather loudly, "Oh, excuse me, it looks like I dropped something, could you hand me those?"

This group had an adage passed down from one of their head people to the effect of, "Most fights may go to the ground, but they stay there exactly as long as it takes the faster guy to get a reverse grip [on one of his knives]."LoL.

Felix Valencia of Valencia Lameco (private trainer to the CEO of Cold Steele) had one of the best
integrations of BJJ with a knife. I was so blown away by him in 2003 that I hired him to assist in the construction of the Defensives curriculum I was charged to develop at Frontsight in Pahrump,
NV.

Be well Cliff

[Cliff Judge]

One of my new "bosses" her in Germany is COL George Bristol, USMC...he founded MCMAP. Can't wait to get on the mat with COL Bristol. He comes with quite a background.

http://www.koryu.com/bio.html

Bring shinai! He's a Shinkage ryu swordsman!

[DonMagee]

This video? This is a judo shiai. Why would anyone expect an Aikidoka to do better than a ranked Judoka in a Judo shiai?

Umm, that was no shiai. That was randori, this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTiLVBiiYHQ ) is shiai.

Looks to me like two guys playing around. Neither one was trying all that hard to impose their will, just a friendly round of randori. It seems quite obvious to me that there was a lack of this kind of experience to the 'aikido' guy, he was unsure about his distance or how to get his partner to engage and failed to respond.

For example, at 1:25, the judo player grabs the elbow of the aikido player. For the next 10 seconds, they basically stand there in that position (it seems like the judo player was trying to embrace the spirit of randori and give his partner time to work).

In terms of critique, I would say the aikido player broke most of the grappling best practices. He never tried to control the 'inside loop' of the grips, always keeping outside grips and never having leverage or control of the judo player. He failed to maintain posture after grips were taken and was always not in control. He never once tried to deal with the grips that were taken, instead he seemed to actively ignore them. He also tried to use his weight and muscle to move the judo player (3:02 to 3:10 mark). While the judo player was the initiator of most of the contact, the aikido player never attempted to get him to over commit or adjust his distance instead letting the judo player control the distance.

That said, none of this has any relevance in the video or anyone's training. This was a not a competition or a street fight between these two guys of similar skill. It seemed obvious that the aikido guy was unfamiliar with this kind of practice and unsure of what was acceptable. He did at points show where aikido might work by setting up fient strikes that could have easily been real. This video says nothing about the state of either arts, but instead is a pretty good example of a great learning opportunity.

In conclusion, get out there and spar!

[phitruong]

Medium rare? Medium rare? Phi, I've lost all respect for you.:disgust:

after reading through various enlightenment posts, enlightenment came over me in full halo effect, so i stop eating the steak right off the cow. now i switched to medium rare. it's less twitchy and i can use my knives. :)

[Marc Abrams]

yes, i am rightly corrected. import or domestic? :)

Phi:

After deep reflection, I have reached red wine satori! It is not where the red wine comes from that is important, it is the type of red wine and the bottle that it is contained within that is important..... Cab.'s, Bordeaux's, Burgundy's have a narrow neck, going sharply into the wide body. It provides a natural grip for you to hold onto as you shatter some enlightenment into another person's head/psyche. :D

Marc Abrams

[sakumeikan]

Umm, that was no shiai. That was randori, this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTiLVBiiYHQ ) is shiai.

Looks to me like two guys playing around. Neither one was trying all that hard to impose their will, just a friendly round of randori. It seems quite obvious to me that there was a lack of this kind of experience to the 'aikido' guy, he was unsure about his distance or how to get his partner to engage and failed to respond.

For example, at 1:25, the judo player grabs the elbow of the aikido player. For the next 10 seconds, they basically stand there in that position (it seems like the judo player was trying to embrace the spirit of randori and give his partner time to work).

In terms of critique, I would say the aikido player broke most of the grappling best practices. He never tried to control the 'inside loop' of the grips, always keeping outside grips and never having leverage or control of the judo player. He failed to maintain posture after grips were taken and was always not in control. He never once tried to deal with the grips that were taken, instead he seemed to actively ignore them. He also tried to use his weight and muscle to move the judo player (3:02 to 3:10 mark). While the judo player was the initiator of most of the contact, the aikido player never attempted to get him to over commit or adjust his distance instead letting the judo player control the distance.

That said, none of this has any relevance in the video or anyone's training. This was a not a competition or a street fight between these two guys of similar skill. It seemed obvious that the aikido guy was unfamiliar with this kind of practice and unsure of what was acceptable. He did at points show where aikido might work by setting up fient strikes that could have easily been real. This video says nothing about the state of either arts, but instead is a pretty good example of a great learning opportunity.

In conclusion, get out there and spar!

Dear Don,
Your judo example of Shiai imo must be one of the most boring and non skillful stuff I have ever seen.In the vid with the judoka?and the aikidoka, that also was pathetic.It was just two guys horsing around.Must we endure this sort of nonsense on this forum?Cheers, Joe,

[Chris Parkerson]

Phi:

After deep reflection, I have reached red wine satori! It is not where the red wine comes from that is important, it is the type of red wine and the bottle that it is contained within that is important..... Cab.'s, Bordeaux's, Burgundy's have a narrow neck, going sharply into the wide body. It provides a natural grip for you to hold onto as you shatter some enlightenment into another person's head/psyche. :D

Marc Abrams

Kampai to red thread Zen.

[Aikibu]

I wish people would stop putting this up as an example of "aikido vs grappeling"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-0RFvgy7-0

the guy is Herman, an older, out of shape, co-host for the TV show "rendezvous with adventure" and not a martial artist at all...

here's the original video of the TV show episode that the clip is from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KqenOzofQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZivUi5ob0

it's more an example of Tohei taking care not to injure a civilian who is a guest of the dojo...

LOL! I guess you don't get my ironic sense of humor. MY Bad. :)

Hint: there are three LOI's in this thread....Folks who love Aiki-Chow...Folks who are being polite to the original poster...and folks who are taking themselves a bit too seriously...

Personally I hate talking about Food. It makes me fat. :D

William Hazen

[DonMagee]

Dear Don,
Your judo example of Shiai imo must be one of the most boring and non skillful stuff I have ever seen.In the vid with the judoka?and the aikidoka, that also was pathetic.It was just two guys horsing around.Must we endure this sort of nonsense on this forum?Cheers, Joe,

If the top competitors of judo are boring and non-skillful as you claim, I think you could be very very famous. Just go win the olympics. Until you do, I'm going to say you are wrong and insulting an entire martial art that actually tests their training.

[OwlMatt]

What a silly thread. Of course someone who practices judo-style grappling all the time is better at it than someone who doesn't. Why does the starter of this thread think this is some great revelation, and why is someone who has nothing nice to say about akido hanging around on an aikido board?

[phitruong]

Personally I hate talking about Food. It makes me fat. :D

William Hazen

no no, talking doesn't make you fat. thinking does. it's about intent which is thought, which is the basis of aiki, which is the major leading cause for fatness. the kind that jenny craig cannot help. my son told me the other day that i kinda jiggly and got man boobs and that i need to get on a diet. i said that the affect of abundance aiki. i wondered if aiki effects also making me losing hair, memory and something else which i can't seem to recall. :D

[Chris Parkerson]

If the top competitors of judo are boring and non-skillful as you claim, I think you could be very very famous. Just go win the olympics. Until you do, I'm going to say you are wrong and insulting an entire martial art that actually tests their training.

I though real men wore pink gis.

No, not really, I just miss the days of Gene LaBell.

Seriously, that was one highly technical Shiai. Small circle judo. No openings and no room for mistakes. Great athletes.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Bring shinai! He's a Shinkage ryu swordsman!

I am looking forward to it. I talked to him about getting the guys to focus some on other aspects of training other than BJJ. What is great about him is he has an interesting perspective of how to train warriors, and a lot of experience doing it.

[Aikibu]

no no, talking doesn't make you fat. thinking does. it's about intent which is thought, which is the basis of aiki, which is the major leading cause for fatness. the kind that jenny craig cannot help. my son told me the other day that i kinda jiggly and got man boobs and that i need to get on a diet. i said that the affect of abundance aiki. i wondered if aiki effects also making me losing hair, memory and something else which i can't seem to recall. :D

LMAO...:) Ditto my friend. :)

William Hazen

[sakumeikan]

If the top competitors of judo are boring and non-skillful as you claim, I think you could be very very famous. Just go win the olympics. Until you do, I'm going to say you are wrong and insulting an entire martial art that actually tests their training.
Dear Don,
I hardly think any 73 years old guy would participate in the Olympics.Can you name anyone who currently is in a Olympic squad?Zimmer races are not part of the Olypics as far as I know.
On you other point, in my time I have been a judoka with considerable experience.I met , trained and was taught by men like Kenshiro Abbe/Anton Geesink,Kisaburo Watanabe.One of my contempories George Kerr is now 10th Dan , and one of my ex training partners Bob Thomas is now 7thDan.I have a great deal of respect for judoka.However if you care to check up via Youtube and watch some videos of the earlier aforementioned men , you will see a more classic , watchable style of judo.These men [also including Dave Starbrook, Neil Adams ,Brian Jacks , Angelo Pariset -I could give you a list the length of my arm]were imo far better and more stylish than your example shown here. I suppose its how you perceive things.Judo can be a thing of beauty,even under test conditions.I would suggest that your example can hardly come into this category.Hope you are well.
Cheers, Joe.

[Hellis]

Dear Don,
I hardly think any 73 years old guy would participate in the Olympics.Can you name anyone who currently is in a Olympic squad?Zimmer races are not part of the Olypics as far as I know.
On you other point, in my time I have been a judoka with considerable experience.I met , trained and was taught by men like Kenshiro Abbe/Anton Geesink,Kisaburo Watanabe.One of my contempories George Kerr is now 10th Dan , and one of my ex training partners Bob Thomas is now 7thDan.I have a great deal of respect for judoka.However if you care to check up via Youtube and watch some videos of the earlier aforementioned men , you will see a more classic , watchable style of judo.These men [also including Dave Starbrook, Neil Adams ,Brian Jacks , Angelo Pariset -I could give you a list the length of my arm]were imo far better and more stylish than your example shown here. I suppose its how you perceive things.Judo can be a thing of beauty,even under test conditions.I would suggest that your example can hardly come into this category.Hope you are well.
Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe

I can vouch for your background as a Judoka with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and others. As an ex Judoka myself,.. I watched the YT video and felt I had wasted a precious 8mins of my life.

Regards

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

[Chris Parkerson]

Geesink Rocks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8eqmaJow0&feature=youtube_gdata_player