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erminio
07-02-2002, 10:09 AM
Hi, everybody.
I noticed that my thread about guns and ammo is not very crowded; more, I've seen a thread in a handgun-related forum where, if my English doesn't betray me, martial arts in general are depicted as useful for fitness but not much for self-defense.. I wonder if everybody thinks "in real life, nothing better (or worse) than a gun".

Anyway, I keep thinking I'm going to learn Aikido, but, you know, I've got a self-defense problem too, so I'd like to understand what happens in real life.

Have a good day!

Erminio

SeiserL
07-02-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by erminio
I wonder if everybody thinks "in real life, nothing better (or worse) than a gun".
Anyway, I keep thinking I'm going to learn Aikido, but, you know, I've got a self-defense problem too, so I'd like to understand what happens in real life.

IMHO, you need to define the range, distance, or miai you feel you need to defend yourself in. Long range = rifles. Closer = shotgun. Closer = pistol. Closer = knives or kicks. Closer = punches. Closer = trapping. Closer = grappling. Closer = ground work. Where is your threat? Also check out within your own fears and trying to get all the answer before you begin the journey.

Until again,

Lynn

Genex
07-02-2002, 10:22 AM
have any of you read the story about O-sensei and the six guns?
if not read it, if so can someone veryfy its authenticity (ooh big word)

pete

Kensai
07-02-2002, 11:53 AM
I have read that story in the "invincible warrior".

O Sensei was very gifted to dodge those bullets. If he indeed dodged them.

In the UK was cant walk around with guns. And also would you really want to kill someone. Aikido gives you the option weither or not to finish what some else has started.

Cheers

Chris

Erik
07-02-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Kensai
In the UK was cant walk around with guns. And also would you really want to kill someone.

Yep! I just finished a book called "On Killing" and the author a US army colonel contends that most soldiers wouldn't fire their weapons at the enemy. This changed over time due to conditioning but historically the one's who killed had a predisposition to kill. He say's that without conditioning around 2% willingly shoot at another human being. He even cites problems the Romans had with getting someone to stab (more likely to kill) rather than slash. So would you be one of the 2%?

This is off-topic but it makes me wonder about the Samurai. If everyone else has problems getting someone to kill at range with a gun just how did you get the samurai to do it close up with a sword? Raises many questions for another thread.

On dodging bullets, let's just say that was one of what were probably several tall stories found in that book.

Lyle Bogin
07-02-2002, 03:47 PM
I have just read Koryu Bujutsu (Ed. Diane Skoss) and there is an article that adresses this issue.

To sum up (I hope I get it right), koryu kata were designed to instill the ability to kill (not just from a technical stand point), and it was the responsibility of the sensei to create a situation in which the trainee would feel the emotional/stressful/psycological equivalent of what he/she'd see on the battle field or in a duel.

George S. Ledyard
07-02-2002, 05:55 PM
There is a reason why an army of peasants with only a few months of firearms training put an end to the Shogunate by destroying an army of traditionally trained samurai. Guns are far more deadly and only require a bit of practice to be functional. This isn't even a topic for serious debate.

On the other hand we lost a King County Sheriff last week to a stark naked unarmed subject on drugs. The subject attacked the officer, took his gun, and killed him as he attempted to run away. So equally clearly training in martial arts would be a good idea as part of ones self defense tool box.

Not everybody carries a firearm. The liklihood of the average citizen running into a violent armed attacker is fairly small. So we play the odds and choose not to carry that kind of weapon. On the other hand I occasionally work for a private investigator doing protective work. If the intelligence indicates that the folks we are worried about is likely to show up with a firearm I will carry my own. Who wants to bring Aikido to a gun fight?

The issue of firearms and self defense may not be an issue in many countries but is cretainly one in the US. There are over two hundred million firearms out here so it must be a factor for anyone who is worried about self defense issues. People make all sorts of decisions about what to do or not to do about this issue.

Diablo
07-02-2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Genex
have any of you read the story about O-sensei and the six guns?
if not read it, if so can someone veryfy its authenticity (ooh big word)

pete

I have read about it at a few sites too. Such as http://www.aikidofaq.com/history/story.html
If I understand it correctly, it was written by Gozo Shioda, founder of Yoshinkan Aikido. He eye-witnessed this event. Not to disrespect him, but if I had seen this, I would have believed that O'Sensei could walk on water. If he were here, I would not call him a liar to his face, but I would question this account.
One of our instructors says that before an attack happens, there is a calmness, then a burst of attack, much like a pit-bull. She says that with time an meditation, you will be aware of the split-seconds of calmness and things will happen frame-by-frame. You are in the here and now, not in the split-seconds that will be in the future. You will then be able to easily respond accordingly. This is way to deep for me at this point, in that this is a higher mindset than I have achieved.
This is why we must keep the four principles of Aikido, being: Keep One Point, Relax Completely, Keep Weight Underside, and Extend Ki. Of these, keeping the One Point, and relaxing completely is what we must try to develop.

As for the topic of the Erminio's post goes, I live in Texas, where you can legally obtain a permit to carry a gun as long as it's not in plain site (it must be concealed). I have friends who do, and debated on getting one myself. I then thought "what kind of world do we live in that you have to carry a pistol on your side in order to feel safe?" I then remembered that I live in a state that had the dubious label of being the "Execution Capital of the US."
Home sweet Home.

It's all about connection.
Diablo

Chris Li
07-02-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Diablo


I have read about it at a few sites too. Such as http://www.aikidofaq.com/history/story.html
If I understand it correctly, it was written by Gozo Shioda, founder of Yoshinkan Aikido. He eye-witnessed this event. Not to disrespect him, but if I had seen this, I would have believed that O'Sensei could walk on water. If he were here, I would not call him a liar to his face, but I would question this account.

Yes, this events in the story were witnessed by Gozo Shioda. My impression of the story (as Shioda tells it) was that the marksmen missed less because M. Ueshiba dodged the bullets than because they were, at heart, unwilling to shoot him and Ueshiba understood that. Ueshiba declined to undertake a similar challenge with an experienced hunter, apparently because he understood that the man would have shot him without question.

Looked at this way it's less a story about dodging bullets than it is a story about gauging human psychology. Don't think that I'd want to try it myself, though :).

Best,

Chris

Edward
07-03-2002, 01:04 AM
If you believe that your life is in real danger, you live in a bad neighborhood, you have ennemies...etc. I think it would be stupid not to carry a gun. It is definitely the best and easiest way of self protection.

If none of the above is true, then carrying a gun could get you in dangerous situations that you wouldn't normally have involved yourself in in the first place.

If you are usually a peaceful person, have never or rarely been involved in fights, never been the one to start the fight anyway, then aikido should be enough for your self protection.

PeterR
07-03-2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Edward
If you believe that your life is in real danger, you live in a bad neighborhood, you have ennemies...etc. I think it would be stupid not to carry a gun. It is definitely the best and easiest way of self protection.

Of course you could always move. :p

I agree but I also think carrying a gun is way over-rated as a means of self defense. It takes time to get it out and if you have a knife or gun pointed at you "going for it" is not the smartest thing you can do.

Chris Li
07-03-2002, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Edward
If you believe that your life is in real danger, you live in a bad neighborhood, you have ennemies...etc. I think it would be stupid not to carry a gun. It is definitely the best and easiest way of self protection.

In general, yes, although I agree with Peter that a gun is no "magic bullet", if you'll excuse the expression :).

More relevant to the issue - even in pre-Meiji Japan nobody really practiced empty-hand techniques for serious use in combat, serious combat study was focused around weaponry, just as it is today in the armed forces of any nation that anyone cares to name. Most ryu had some small curriculum of empty handed techniques, but they usually took second (or third or fourth place) to armed techniques, for the very same reason that George referred to with guns - swords and spears are a lot more deadly than empty hand techniques.

Best,

Chris

PeterR
07-03-2002, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Chris Li More relevant to the issue - even in pre-Meiji Japan nobody really practiced empty-hand techniques for serious use in combat, serious combat study was focused around weaponry,
Of course the difference between combat and self defense use of weapons is that in the former the weapon is out and pointed in the right direction.

Erik
07-03-2002, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
Of course the difference between combat and self defense use of weapons is that in the former the weapon is out and pointed in the right direction.

And there's that small matter of being willing to use it. To literally end someone's life. Because if you do pull that gun out and you do use it that's what you are doing.

Easy to talk about, far too easy to imagine in our culture, still, much harder to do.

Chris Li
07-03-2002, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Of course the difference between combat and self defense use of weapons is that in the former the weapon is out and pointed in the right direction.

That's true - and it's probably a large part of the reason that people studied what empty-hand techniques that they did. Certainly the oral history of Daito-ryu seems to support that, although there's no telling how accurate that is in reality.

Still, the great majority of training time and curriculum was devoted to weaponry, even after the age of large scale combat had more or less died at Sekigahara. If you have access to the weaponry and are allowed to carry it then I think that there is little question that some kind of weaponry gives a great advantage over empty-hand, concealed or not - of course, the question of whether that level of protection is necessary or not for the average person would be another issue.

Best,

Chris

aiki_what
07-03-2002, 07:57 AM
Actually, the awareness that we practice in Aikido along with the basic movements of irimi and tenkan blend very well with the skills required for self-defense with the pistol.

Brian H
07-03-2002, 09:42 AM
Most Aikido techiques can be done with something in your hand. Aikido is a "weapon" based art in that the influence sword shows through even in the empty hand techniques. The same engine of irini/tenkan that samuri used turn turn and draw a sword when grabbed, can be used to draw a pistol. The same opening that you could exploit for techique can be used as a weapon draw.

Katate dori defenses(particularly shiho nage - the "pin" is COOL) and any kokyu work like a charm as weapon retention techinques.

For a more gun related forum try:

www.packing.org

Edward
07-03-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by PeterR


Of course you could always move. :p

I agree but I also think carrying a gun is way over-rated as a means of self defense. It takes time to get it out and if you have a knife or gun pointed at you "going for it" is not the smartest thing you can do.

Well, yes and no. In my native country, Lebanon, guns are considered like male accessories or jewelry, and it's not uncommon to see a nice nickeled gun in someone's belt. They are proudly worn in public. I think guns can act as a deterrant as obviously criminals prefer easy targets. Of course if you keep the gun hidden in a difficult to reach place, then you're right! You won't have time to get hold of it and use it. But I can hardly imagine someone pointing a knife at you while you have a 9mm hanging in your belt. Unfortunately, carrying guns is illegal in most countries :(