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Mario Tobias
04-21-2012, 07:20 AM
What is atemi really for?

Abasan
04-21-2012, 10:01 AM
To take uke's center.

phitruong
04-21-2012, 03:52 PM
for "never having to say you're sorry." :)

dps
04-22-2012, 02:40 AM
"Although the atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza can be viewed as techniques that can inflict a severe injury on an opponent, if we study the principles of the martial arts well, we realize that they are exquisite techniques for toppling (taosu) or controlling (osaeru) an opponent without necessarily harming him. "

From:

http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm;

On Jujutsu and its Modernization
by Kenji Tomiki

dps

PeterR
04-22-2012, 05:31 AM
The link doesn't work but the article is a classic. If you can't correct the link I know it is somewhere under the Shodokan Honbu website.

"Although the atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza can be viewed as techniques that can inflict a severe injury on an opponent, if we study the principles of the martial arts well, we realize that they are exquisite techniques for toppling (taosu) or controlling (osaeru) an opponent without necessarily harming him. "

From:

http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm;

On Jujutsu and its Modernization
by Kenji Tomiki

dps

sorokod
04-22-2012, 07:50 AM
The link doesn't work but the article is a classic. If you can't correct the link I know it is somewhere under the Shodokan Honbu website.

Fixed link: http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm

MM
04-22-2012, 08:52 AM
What is atemi really for?

Supposedly, according to Ueshiba, it's used for fighting.

CitoMaramba
04-22-2012, 09:39 AM
What is atemi really for?

1. Tenderizing meat.
2. 99% (or 90% or 70%, depending on the quote) of Aikido, according to Ueshiba Kaiso.
3. For that added flavour in soups, stews and noodles!

lbb
04-22-2012, 09:52 AM
For busting people in the face?

MM
04-22-2012, 11:16 AM
2. 99% (or 90% or 70%, depending on the quote) of Aikido, according to Ueshiba Kaiso.


According to Shioda in his book, Aikido Shugyo:

Many of you are likely surprised at how often I use atemi. This is only natural since when we talk about Aikido, everyone is caught up in images of wrist grasps and flashy throws. However, Ueshiba Morihei Sensei himself, who was my master at one point, expressed himself in the following manner. He said, "In a real fight, Aikido is 70 percent atemi and 30 percent throwing." Based on my own experience, I can say that this is precisely the case.

It's been said that Shioda's aikido, of all the students, was most like Ueshiba's. It has also been said that Ueshiba was the favored student of Sokaku Takeda. However you want to look at it, the focus of the quote is "real fight", not training and not in the dojo. It seems that when this quote/percentages are used, everyone forgets that part. Should you still not be convinced, look at the films of Ueshiba, post-war, and count the number of atemi he uses. He doesn't connect and sometimes doesn't come close, but they are there.

In Kisshomaru's aikido, aka Modern Aikido, atemi has a much, much smaller role. Does your practice use atemi as Ueshiba did, even in his post-war years? Why not?

Aikibu
04-22-2012, 01:28 PM
Well we're one of those 90 per-centers...Atemi gives Uke the opportunity to stop fighting. :D

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
04-22-2012, 04:34 PM
Atemi an be used for several things. It can be used to disrupt the fight. That is to create space and take control of the fight to the point that u can dominate your opponent and submit him to your will. Some might call this taking center, but I think taking center is too specific and presents a limited view of atemi. Think in terms of disrupting or staying ahead of your opponents OODA loop. Atemi is all about this, and I think this is the primary use of atemi. Once u control the fight, secondarily, or can be used to inflict damage to your opponent or be used to keep control, further disruption of your opponents OODA loop, or to break his will to fight.

St Matt
04-23-2012, 05:54 AM
Atemi is for hitting people in the kisser.

Walter Martindale
04-23-2012, 07:49 AM
Atemi is for hitting people in the kisser.

Or on the back of the neck, or in the ribs, or nearly anywhere else...
(no teeth in the back of the neck)
:D
W

chillzATL
04-23-2012, 07:57 AM
disrupting their focus, taking their center, introducing tension and if you're good/lucky enough, knocking the fight out of them completely.

Richard Stevens
04-23-2012, 09:08 AM
If you do it right you don't need to take their center. :p

jurasketu
04-23-2012, 09:25 AM
Stunned people are a LOT easier to throw.

Abasan
04-23-2012, 12:20 PM
If you do it 'right' you'll end up in jail. If you do enough and take his center then all's good... IMHO anyway.

sakumeikan
04-23-2012, 02:14 PM
Atemi is for hitting people in the kisser.

Dear Matt,
You are far to limited in your choice of target.What is wrong with a well directed kick to the persons knee caps or if you really want to close the encounter fast with minimum effort I would suggest a kick in the scrotum would suffice?This works better than a fancy shiho nage. Cheers, Joe

Aikibu
04-23-2012, 02:37 PM
If you do it 'right' you'll end up in jail. If you do enough and take his center then all's good... IMHO anyway.

If the choice was jail or the hospital which one would you choose? The sad fact is most Aikidoka have not had enough practice (or practice with enough serious martial intent) to make that choice.

I'll put it this way...Using Atemi effectively means knowing how to deal with a real punch or a take down attempt...There are just as many anecdotes regarding Aikidoka getting their butts kicked as there are about ones who deal with a fight successfully...( I have had personal experience with both)

And look it's all good with me if you know or don't know how to use atemi (Some folks in Aikido do not consider it a Budo or a Martial Art) as most situations do not require life and death resolutions... However... as my old Ranger Platoon Sargent used to say..."Better to have and need not Then to need and not have." :)

So it's kind of obvious to me what "Atemi is really for"

I personally feel it's important if you know that answer for yourself... and to be both honest and realistic in this regard with your practice." :)

William Hazen

Gerardo Torres
04-23-2012, 03:02 PM
What is atemi really for... in aikido training?

To me this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. If you have aiki and power you can kick, punch, etc. with aiki and power in which case you'd be doing... aikido.

If you have no aiki and power to begin with, no amount of importing striking techniques from karate, muay-thai, boxing, etc., is going to help you gain aiki or the kind of power that Ueshiba or Shioda were using. I see this in many aikido schools -- adding unarmed fighting arts to their curriculum -- which might result in better fighters but not necessarily improve the core aikido skills.

I agree that atemi is extremely important for fighting. But since not all atemi-waza are created for equal purposes, which ones are we supposed to to use in aikido waza/applications? Then you have a wide variety of ate-waza from armed and unarmed koryu -- are we supposed to be using any of that? Which ones are better for aikido waza? Perhaps importing the "wrong" striking technique would technically and tactically make the situation worse (in practical terms)? I guess I'm interested to know of any specific direction O Sensei gave in the matter of atemi other than the quote posted above by Mark Murray.

Aikibu
04-23-2012, 03:43 PM
What is atemi really for... in aikido training?

To me this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. If you have aiki and power you can kick, punch, etc. with aiki and power in which case you'd be doing... aikido.

If you have no aiki and power to begin with, no amount of importing striking techniques from karate, muay-thai, boxing, etc., is going to help you gain aiki or the kind of power that Ueshiba or Shioda were using. I see this in many aikido schools -- adding unarmed fighting arts to their curriculum -- which might result in better fighters but not necessarily improve the core aikido skills.

I agree that atemi is extremely important for fighting. But since not all atemi-waza are created for equal purposes, which ones are we supposed to to use in aikido waza/applications? Then you have a wide variety of ate-waza from armed and unarmed koryu -- are we supposed to be using any of that? Which ones are better for aikido waza? Perhaps importing the "wrong" striking technique would technically and tactically make the situation worse (in practical terms)? I guess I'm interested to know of any specific direction O Sensei gave in the matter of atemi other than the quote posted above by Mark Murray.

Good points....However (and with all due respect) Most don't suffer from such philosophical or tactical confusion (For example Shoji Nishio didn't nor do some other important Shihan) only practical application with intent. And while the whole "Aiki power" argument has certain important merits it suffers from a lack of competent experienced teachers to teach it and to infer that folks should not step outside of Aikido in order to improve aspects of their practice including "Aiki" power is self defeating.

I've read all the discussions about "aiki" power and agree with most of them so let's not beat a dead horse...If you need to go to a boxing or MMA class to learn how to "atemi" or Chinese IMA class to experiance "Aiki" by all means go. Make the use of all the best resources available to improve your Aikido. Nishio Ryu practitioners are encouraged to do this since and as far as I know O'Sensei never objected to it either...Aikido should go "back to the future" and include Aiki and should also improve it's syllabus and continue to evolve.

Your Aikido journey should be on the widest possible path of experience...

"In order for Aikido to be considered (a) budo it must be effective against other Martial Arts."-Shoji Nishio Shihan.

William Hazen

Gerardo Torres
04-23-2012, 04:50 PM
Good points....However (and with all due respect) Most don't suffer from such philosophical or tactical confusion (For example Shoji Nishio didn't nor do some other important Shihan) only practical application with intent. And while the whole "Aiki power" argument has certain important merits it suffers from a lack of competent experienced teachers to teach it and to infer that folks should not step outside of Aikido in order to improve aspects of their practice including "Aiki" power is self defeating.

I've read all the discussions about "aiki" power and agree with most of them so let's not beat a dead horse...If you need to go to a boxing or MMA class to learn how to "atemi" or Chinese IMA class to experiance "Aiki" by all means go. Make the use of all the best resources available to improve your Aikido. Nishio Ryu practitioners are encouraged to do this since and as far as I know O'Sensei never objected to it either...Aikido should go "back to the future" and include Aiki and should also improve it's syllabus and continue to evolve.

Your Aikido journey should be on the widest possible path of experience...

"In order for Aikido to be considered (a) budo it must be effective against other Martial Arts."-Shoji Nishio Shihan.

William Hazen
Hi William,

I agree with some of your points, especially your final quote :) . While I'm all for going outside the aikido establishment to get core aiki and power skills (as there are common baseline skills present in various Asian arts), when we talk about atemi-waza we're talking about techniques, and techniques tend to be bound by art (era-, place- and context-specific); thus my question: which atemi techniques to use in Aikido training? Any? Some? None? And most importantly, why?

Being reliant on disrupting an aikido "uke" with atemi is I must say (and again with respect) something I tend to question (I am not disregarding it, we often use it in our aikido training) as there is very little to no fighting back from uke's part in response to these atemi, not to mention I often see "atemi" as a scapegoat or default strategy to make up for lack of connection/aiki. Many times atemi is shown in aikido as a highly disruptive or "finisher" move, it assumes an uke being startled or undone by things than in other training paradigms or arts, well, it wouldn't happen (no matter how new age-y or purportedly badass any aikido style claims to be, the fact remains that it's still reliant on an uke-nage training paradigm and thus a limited test ground for technique or combat efficiency. Sure, Koryu has kata, but at least they are very specific about ate-waza. The how, when, where and why of ate-waza in koryu is well-documented, consistent and demonstrable, so introducing a "foreign" atemi waza would have to go through some rigorous scrutiny before being adopted -- not saying people in aikido aren't going through similar scrutiny when using atemi, I'm only looking for information regarding the theory behind it.

And not to beat a dead horse as you say, but I'd like to add that at the body level, some common uses of the arms, legs and hips when striking might actually run contrary and be counter-productive to certain aiki and power-building goals. So I htink it's very important to consider the howof atemi in aikido at the fundamental body level.

-Gerardo

Aikibu
04-23-2012, 05:38 PM
Well... all our techniques start with Atemi...The principle is to end the fight as quickly as possible even before it really begins...Irimi begins with Atemi...All our techniques have atemi at every key point... again with the idea to give Uke the opportunity to stop fighting. I don't agree with any other form of Atemi that allows a fight to continue but if it does that is what techniques are for There are other uses for Atemi that have been mentioned "redirection" "taking Uke's center" blah blah blah...but they contradict our understanding of Aikido...You don't use Atemi to escalate an attack into a technique but to end it (or more aptly give Uke an opening to stop attacking).

Lets be clear...This does not mean that you're interested in destroying your opponent or achieving victory by vanquishing your attacker...You use it to give Uke the opportunity to stop fighting and thus restore "harmony".... and if Uke does not stop then you have a means to defend yourself and control uke with a technique.

Now with that being said That approach will not work unless your atemi is effective..period. This in my opinion is why Aiki is so damn important...Nothing ends a conflict faster than an atemi with Aiki or to see your attack go poof in the face of someone with Aiki Those with Aiki in my experience speed up the resolution of any conflict once attacked. I had a few folks with Aiki give me an atemi "love tap" over the years and I have to say there is no more effective method for ending a fight. LOL

Shoji Nishio studied Shindō jinen-ryū Karate so our atemi is meant to be "effective" our Aikido includes practicing a basic "striking kata" and a "kicking kata". Just go see some vids of Nishio Sensei on You Tube...Every technique starts the same way...

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
04-24-2012, 04:21 AM
I think both William and Geraldo bring up some good points and I agree with things in both post. I think it depends on your perspective.

For me, I don't tie myself down to a particular paradigm if I can help it. That is, I don't believe in an "aiki" solution set, or a BJJ solution set...or any other training methodology.

Having spent a considerable amount of time with non-compliant training that was NOT incumbered by a particular practiciioner. For me, atemi is about gaining control of something gone bad.

If i'm hitting or punching you it is because I can't do something else. I like my hands and I like to be able to walk and move with my feet (mobility). if I'm hitting or striking, then I hurt my hands. If I am kicking I am sacrificing mobility.

However, if I am controlling, then is there really a need for atemi? so when am I hitting or kicking? when I can't do something else. So in alot of respects...for me, atemi represents failure or "fight gone bad".

I'm either closing distance with strikes, or I am creating distance with them. It depends on the situaiton. Or I am imposing my will in a very or whelming way to force you to submit cause I am at a loss for something else to control the fight and want to end it. (I prefer chokes). However, chokes require control and isolation.

You can bring up the whole IS/IT argument for sure. Yes, I see this as additive to power. More is better and the more I can reduce feedback of my opponent and increase my integrity the better.

That said, I agree, that having this capacity can improve your success rate, and it may allow you to NOT hit or kick possible.

that said, I don't necessarily see IS or Aiki as a solution set to the problem in it's entirety. You can have "aiki" and still have "fight gone bad".

So I don't really see where there is any debate over striking or not striking as far as aiki is related. If you are doing it, then you are doing it cause something is wrong with the situation.

Again, that said, hopefully "Aiki" might provide you an advantage since in theory (and practice) it affords you to mainatin or regain your integrity.

however, I think you can have Aiki, be able to demonstrate it in the dojo or clinic setting....yet still be a miserable failure martially if you don't practice fighting. So, I think there is much more to the discussion than an isolated discussion on the benefits of Aiki.

It is a catch 22 if you ask me.

Abasan
04-24-2012, 08:12 AM
Does using atemi to take center necessarily result in you being hospitalized? This means that you believe atemi strikes are more effective than taking center. Oh well I guess then there's really nothing to expand on really.

Where I come from, taking center is paramount. No center, no power. No power means I have control over you since I have power, mine and yours.

I'm not saying strikes don't work or aren't effective, i thought we were talking about atemi and aikido here that's all.

Kevin Leavitt
04-24-2012, 09:54 AM
Ahmad, not exactly sure what you are referencing....but I think atemi is simply a tool. You can use it to get back control of the situation (controlling or taking center), or you can use it to end the fight by continuing your use of force past the point of control.

Really the issue we are discussing, IMO, is spectrum of force of continium of force. That is, how does atemi relate to that.

Ethically, and most rules of engagement of organizations and society dictate that once you have control of a situation, any force used past that is considered excessive. I think this is in line with the overall philosophy of aikido and many other martial arts.

Atemi is but one way to address the situation or threat. Where you are on the spectrum determines exactly what you are doing with it and when it becomes something else.

Abasan
04-25-2012, 12:12 PM
Kevin,

Well I was addressing some of the responses above that lean towards the 'I strike you and the end' part of the spectrum you talked about.

I just wanted to clarify that i don't hold any distinction between atemi that hits and atemi that doesn't. That's probably the spectrum I can accept. As long as its atemi.

What is not in that spectrum would be 'just' hits. An atemi can be a strike, but a strike not necessarily an atemi. The difference would be atemi"s purpose, to take center. So hitting the other guy or not shouldn't be the issue here. But if you have that in your bag of tricks, by all means fire away.

I've been hit many times by my Sensei"s ateru. It doesn't hurt physically as a strike, in fact it feels just like a nudge. But the end result can be devastating... Either you fall or get knocked away or you squish up. In any case, your center has been completely blown away. Would I use it if I could? In a heart beat.

Between waving your hands with intent and hoping the other guy connects enough to you that you can affect him, and actually touching him and having him collapse without any physical harm whatsoever, I'll take the latter anyday.

Kevin Leavitt
04-25-2012, 01:40 PM
I haven't really thought about it much...but I suppose I don't make a distinction either. to me, a strike is a strike. What makes it different is my relationship to uke at the time I use it. If i am at a disadvantage, that is he has my center and I am trying to buy time, create distance, regain center, then my purpose in using it may be different. The effectiveness and the power might also be different too (weak). If I am centered and I am using it to off center uke, then that would be like mid-range power. If I have use's center, or have him immobilized or pinned...then things might get really ugly.

There are ethics in each of these situations as well as you can imagine that we need to consider when looking at use of force.

However, for me, a punch is a punch...i would hit with the same intent always if I am hitting, and that is to cause pain, damage, or disruption of uke.

Alberto_Italiano
04-25-2012, 03:59 PM
Under practical points of view (I am most interested in those, and not because I am callous), as far as I understood and I used it, you use atemi merely to break your opponent's attention, that is you buff him on the face while you are already manouvering to place a techinque. It may ease his rigidity because it brings his attention elsewhere.
It is fundamentally a diversion. I consider it delivering intentional disinformation about your intentions while fighting.

Keep in mind that an atemi may divert attention only on people who are not used to be punched in the face. Guys used to get jabs and uppercuts and hooks on their faces won't be significantly affected by an atemi - if any at all.

last but not least, an atemi is almost the same of a tsuki, a punch - as a matter of fact whatever diverts the attention of your opponent is an atemi, even your elbow striking in his face as you get ready to kotegaeshi.

ps or even hitting him on his face repeatdely with his own hand while in position for shihonage, before actually grounding him.

Abasan
04-25-2012, 05:26 PM
The only thing is, I believe when we 'intend' to strike, we have already lost. With atemi, there is no intent anything. Atemi is just incorporated in our every movement but in a more fluid, natural manner rather than a deliberate thing.

Also it's not limited to distractions to the face or just with the hands. In fact one of the more subtle applications of atemi is sokumen nage as in the trailing hand. Whilst the lead hand is basically extended outwards under uke's chin, the trailing hands cuts uke's center and even if uke doesn't see it with his eyes or the fact that it doesn't really touch his body, he will feel his torso being cut or the danger of that impending cut. Don't apply the atemi then, and he will feel all the power of the leading hand and resist.

Abasan
04-25-2012, 05:32 PM
I agree also that uke's who are used to taking strikes, or uke who deliberately ignore the danger of atemi and crazy uke's don't get affected by atemi waza so much until you apply it all the way. That's why atemi needs to take uke's center primarily. Injury and pain is secondary to taking center and the absence on the former two is much more in congruence with the Aikido spirit but remains a valid choice should you want to apply it.

sakumeikan
04-25-2012, 05:45 PM
Dear All,
If you want to see atemi in action check out Wake Up Call by Chiba Sensei on Youtube.Cheers, Joe.

Kevin Leavitt
04-25-2012, 06:03 PM
Injury or pain or the perception of it is what creates the conditions for u to take his center. Also don't assume that u si ply are taking his center. If he took yours, then it may be that u must get yours back first.

I don't know about the whole if you intend to strike u already lost perspective. That seems philosophical to me, and I personally don't get that much into the weeds. If I am using ate I, it is because I don't have control and use it to get control. So yeah, losing is there and I don't want to. Already lost though....not in the philosophical since. I'd I gain control...well I'm about winning with what is necesarry.

Gerardo Torres
04-25-2012, 06:28 PM
Dear All,
If you want to see atemi in action check out Wake Up Call by Chiba Sensei on Youtube.Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe,

I assume you refer to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5Na1x6sAc

I would be interesting to see that attempted on somebody who would fight back or defend himself (i.e. not have their left arm dangling on the side).

PeterR
04-25-2012, 09:04 PM
Are we limiting atemi waza to just the fist. In the broader sense (ie. the series of atemi waza of let's say Shodokan Aikido) it can include striking by any part of the body. Irimi nage omote is an atemi waza for instance.

I would think that the distracting jab that seems to be discussed here throws out any advantage aikido technique can give. A strike by the fist followed by the whole body on the other hand (there is a pun in there somewhere) can be a thing of beauty.

Kevin Leavitt
04-26-2012, 02:23 AM
Peter, I am not limiting Atemi to just the fist. My assumption is that is involves any use of the body to strike with, but primarily legs and arms.

To me, it does not matter, the mechanics are the same. one of three conditions are pretty much present. You have his center (you dominate), neutral postion (parity), or he has your center (he is dominate).

Those three conditions, IMO, matter more than the method of atemi as it will affect how much force and what you are able and should be trying to do with the atemi/strike. Now, the IT/IS guys like Dan, may present a different take on this as someone like Dan can generate power from various orientations...I'm good with that...but my mind says that even with that, I would see that more as an orientation and not about who is controlling who. i.e. I think it is possible to appear to be out of kilter, but actually be in control. but i'd lump that into the first two conditions which says you have his center, or you are neutral.

PeterR
04-26-2012, 04:33 AM
I got that from your posts and I like your conditions. Somewhat similar to the go no sen, sen no sen and sen sen no sen that I know and love. I do think that atemi waza of any form is more of a pre-emptive (ie. sen no sen) technique - much more effective to dominate from the beginning rather than use it to recover your dominance. Dare I say atemi is a lousy defensive technique.

As for IS/IT (shrug).

Peter, I am not limiting Atemi to just the fist. My assumption is that is involves any use of the body to strike with, but primarily legs and arms.

To me, it does not matter, the mechanics are the same. one of three conditions are pretty much present. You have his center (you dominate), neutral postion (parity), or he has your center (he is dominate).

Those three conditions, IMO, matter more than the method of atemi as it will affect how much force and what you are able and should be trying to do with the atemi/strike. Now, the IT/IS guys like Dan, may present a different take on this as someone like Dan can generate power from various orientations...I'm good with that...but my mind says that even with that, I would see that more as an orientation and not about who is controlling who. i.e. I think it is possible to appear to be out of kilter, but actually be in control. but i'd lump that into the first two conditions which says you have his center, or you are neutral.

Kevin Leavitt
04-26-2012, 05:23 AM
Agree it is a lousy defensive technique. for the sake of framing the disucssion though, I think it has to be mentioned. If you are on the bad side of things, there are usually things that you need to be doing other then striking. however, a good slap to the ear to create a disruption, forming a frame to create some space etc...are all things that are useful and I put in the same realm as atemi. you do need to follow that up with core/body movement, for example a clinch, though or it is COMPLETELY useless if you ask me.

tarik
05-03-2012, 10:08 AM
Injury or pain or the perception of it is what creates the conditions for u to take his center.

It can, but I don't think atemi is or should be about this. In fact, I think this is a distraction. One cannot predict how another responds to injury or perception of pain, so those things should become incidental to your purpose.

To me atemi is about creating a connection to my partner, and doing with with my entire body, regardless of which part actually is doing the touching, and regardless of whether or not they are destroyed by it. With a connection established, much more becomes possible, and depends upon the partner's response.

If ukemi is about receiving force with the [entire] body, for me atemi is it's mirror image. It's about delivering force, regardless of where that force comes from.

I don't know about the whole if you intend to strike u already lost perspective. That seems philosophical to me, and I personally don't get that much into the weeds. If I am using ate I, it is because I don't have control and use it to get control. So yeah, losing is there and I don't want to. Already lost though....not in the philosophical since. I'd I gain control...well I'm about winning with what is necesarry.

From my point of view, if you only use ate when you lose control and are using it to regain control pretty much explains the entire 'philosophical' perspective you mention.

Best,

dps
05-03-2012, 10:42 AM
If ukemi is about receiving force with the [entire] body, for me atemi is it's mirror image. It's about delivering force, regardless of where that force comes from.

Well put.

dps

Mark Mueller
05-03-2012, 11:13 AM
Well whatever it is ....it should be applied early and often.......

jurasketu
05-03-2012, 09:36 PM
Miyamoto Musashi claimed that the principles used to defeat one man could be applied to seven, seventy, seven hundred, seven thousand, seventy thousand...

I think it might be useful to borrow from the tactics used by military forces since antiquity and apply to one on one.

There are two standard methods used by competent commanders depending on the "personality" of the opponent...

When the opponent is known to be conservative or afraid...
1. Engage Opponent's Center [Connect]
2. Make flanking attack forcing opponent to commit reserve to prevent defeat [Atemi forcing block or loss of balance]
3. Make decisive attack by attacking between the engaged center and the committed reserve [Opponent's Ki should now be split - enter decisively and defeat opponent]

If the opponent is known to be aggressive, the sequence is this...
1. Attack opponent's Center [Atemi]
2, Retreat in feigned disorder when opponent counterattacks and senses victory [Connect and turn into a ghost]
3. Make decisive attack in flank or rear against now disordered opponent [Opponent's energy is either spent, misdirected or out of balance - enter decisively into opponent's center and defeat opponent]

Naturally, the moment to enter decisively depends on being in harmony with the energy of the conflict at hand...

Note: Some commanders just use brute force (aka frontal attacks) to try and win with superior strength. See the second method - no need to initiate attack - just blend/connect with attack and turn into a ghost. Proceed to step 3.

For me, this applies almost directly to hand-to-hand. And it certainly looks like Aikido to me.

Of course, a competent opponent should know this and will be wary...

Just an observation...

phitruong
05-04-2012, 06:42 AM
If ukemi is about receiving force with the [entire] body, for me atemi is it's mirror image. It's about delivering force, regardless of where that force comes from.
,

wouldn't that mean we should be practice half of our time on receiving and the other half on delivering?

Mark Mueller
05-04-2012, 08:11 AM
"I think it might be useful to borrow from the tactics used by military forces since antiquity and apply to one on one.

There are two standard methods used by competent commanders depending on the "personality" of the opponent..."

Robin....you might want to PM Kevin about the OODA loop......

jurasketu
05-04-2012, 08:45 AM
"Robin....you might want to PM Kevin about the OODA loop......"

I think the OODA loop is good stuff. It is a nice generalized theory.

Chris Parkerson
05-04-2012, 12:00 PM
"Although the atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza can be viewed as techniques that can inflict a severe injury on an opponent, if we study the principles of the martial arts well, we realize that they are exquisite techniques for toppling (taosu) or controlling (osaeru) an opponent without necessarily harming him. "

From:

http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm;

On Jujutsu and its Modernization
by Kenji Tomiki

dps

I love this. The kosho monks developed a Kenpo style that used atemi to literally guide people into falls. I have reverse engineered this to some degree, applying Daito principles to my Kenpo. It makes great sense. Edmund Parker (American Kenpo) used a tern called frictional guidance. In essence, you can attain kuzushi with. Grab, a brushing of the hand, arm or torso, or you can "fold" people's body with light penetration. Lot's of fun.

You do not have to injure anyone. But a well placed punch still devastates.

tarik
05-04-2012, 12:13 PM
wouldn't that mean we should be practice half of our time on receiving and the other half on delivering?

It depends upon the mode of practice. If I am doing things well, I find that I am usually both receiving and delivering force at the same time regardless of my role. So I practice all the time receiving (whether as uke or even or especially as tori) and most of the time on delivering force (again, both as uke and tori).

Receiving and delivering force is something that is intimately tied together. The idea that you are only doing one or the other in your role as uke or tori is very misleading in my mind, because when I am receiving force I am always looking for a way to channel it through me to somewhere, ideally somewhere that allows me to steal back the sente.

The only difference in my mind with regard to who is in which role is not who is delivering or receiving the force, but who has the sente and can make the next decision (or as Kevin might say, who is ahead in the OODA loop). I can be receiving and/or delivering force and still have the sente. When things happen correctly, uke falls down mostly because of the force that they delivered to me, returned to them skillfully with some of my own force plus gravity.

Also, I, for one, don't go in for the typical, "you throw me 4 times, I throw you 4 times" mode of practice. Even as a student I didn't comply well with that methodology; even when I was in an Aikikai dojo. I'd often insist on remaining uke (or tori) until we were reasonably close to achieving the thing we were supposed to be working on. Sometimes, I'd explain it as.. "I can't count". When I taught there, I'd often set different patterns for learning.

Now that I run my own place, I remain in the role of uke or tori for as long my partner and I feel is necessary for learning. If I remain uke for an entire class, that's just fine for my own learning and often better for my students learning.

Best,

Chris Parkerson
05-04-2012, 03:14 PM
What is earth-gravity-living without force. We push on the earth, the earth pushes back, we channel that through our skeletal framework to create momentum.

A touch, a push, a strike. They all work the same way. The difference is momentum. If you channel well, your size doesn't matter. If you channel using long leverage, what looks like a slight touch can topple an opponent or do damage to his body.

It is all atemi to me.

Keith Larman
05-04-2012, 04:15 PM
I keep reading this thread not knowing what to say. I must just be the simpleton here... Because I keep wanting to say the point of atemi is to hit the other fella. Nothing more, nothing less. Why you may do it varies from situation to situation. When you do it is similarly varied. Asking what it's *really* for is like asking what life is *really* about. Or what love *really* is. Or what is a good car *really*. It just depends. On one level it is what it is. On another level, well, it just depends.

We spend way too much time IMHO chasing after some larger, overarching simplifying explanation that gives us absolute guidance when often there simply isn't one to be had. Well, at least not one any more significant than the obvious answer...

That's my answer and I'm sticking with it... :)

phitruong
05-04-2012, 06:58 PM
That's my answer and I'm sticking with it... :)

my answer: atemi is really for reaching enlightenment. :D

Keith Larman
05-04-2012, 11:06 PM
my answer: atemi is really for reaching enlightenment. :D

Caught an atemi with my face last year. Zigged when I should have zagged. Lit me up... :) Or is that the wrong enlightenment? :)

Actually I was quite proud that I kept on working and moving. I only whimpered quietly later...

Chris Parkerson
05-04-2012, 11:14 PM
LOL Phi. I love your response.
Perhaps it is a paraphrase of Edmund Parker's statement in the Zen of Kenpo.

"Purity comes only when pure knuckles meet pure flesh, no matter who delivers or receives.”
Kind of like the Zen Master who throws his disciple into the frigid water. For that one instant, there was indeed nothing else pressing upon his awareness.

For me, all punches designed to destabilize and throw an opponent touch the center and create kuzushi. Other punches touch the center but drive the unstable frame "inside" use's stance so the natural skeletal resistance is produced. These do internal damage.

Either way, punch/throw or Punch/penetrate all punched touch the center.

John Thomas Read
05-05-2012, 12:03 AM
The moment uke (the attacker) forms intent to attack nage (the defender) he (she) commits to the level of psychological concept; that is, uke becomes enveloped in the world of thought. Now there is no doubt that when properly used, thought is very useful to human beings. But on the martial level, thought also has the unfortunate tendency to constantly stop on things, so when uke's mind becomes caught in conception, 'suki' inevitably appear, 'openings' that are vulnerable to attack.

Thought is contracted energy, not unlike material substance. When uke forms intent to attack nage, his mind enters a predictable state, like a mass in motion. Simply by observing uke commit to his conceptual structure, nage will find a way to take advantage of the weaknesses inherent in the human mind's conceptual predictability.

In martial arts, atemi is most commonly thought to involve a strike toward a vulnerability in uke. But atemi can be understood in other ways. For example, it is entirely possible for nage to 'throw atemi', not by throwing a strike, but by placing definitively (setting in space) a certain 'stillness' (often of the hand) in the midst of a high speed technical movement.

Such a stillness stands out and catches uke's mind, causing it to stop for a moment. As uke's mind stops on nage's set of technical stillness, nage himself does not stop and instead continues to flow through the technique. The result is that uke, caught for a moment in a conceptual stop, loses any lead, any initiative he may have had, and becomes trapped into a lagging position from which he cannot escape throughout the remainder of the throw.

The set of the hand in space may or may not contain real potential for an actual strike to uke's body - but it doesn't really matter. Nage really has no intent to strike uke at all. Instead, nage's atemi is intended to catch uke into a reactive and therefore lagging position within the technique.

Advanced Aikidoists are generally very skilled in moving quickly, precisely, and powerfully, but many are less skilled with the placement of silent stillness as part of waza. I believe it is important to understand the implications of silence and stillness, and recommend spending considerable time exploring the use of these in one's Aikido techniques.

Interestingly, when nage does grasp the importance of this 'set of stillness' type of atemi, in practicing it is common for nage to become caught into into his own atemi! For this reason (among others) it is important to spend time examining the nature of thought, and how uke's mind, as well as one's own, is vulnerable to psychological entrapment.

One might begin such a study by observing the movement of thought in one's own mind, and making a distinction between the content of thought, and the structure of thought.

Chris Parkerson
05-05-2012, 03:47 AM
An excellent treatise, John. And in a majority of cases, I know this to be true.
Most attackers form an intent. We tend to train "mushin" as counterfighters; an the one who responds to an attack using blending and filling holes in an attackers posture, and/or the angles and zones That present during the attack.

Then Bruce Lee turned such dogma on it's head. He, in zen awareness, simply said, "The hand hits". For him that was true whether he was uke or nage. He claimed to have attained silent stillness by "becoming like water". His body just filled efficient spaces whether he initiated an attack or defended against one.

Perhaps we can attain silent stillness in our attacks as well as our defenses too.

tarik
05-05-2012, 10:02 AM
I keep reading this thread not knowing what to say. I must just be the simpleton here...

Nah.

Because I keep wanting to say the point of atemi is to hit the other fella. Nothing more, nothing less. Why you may do it varies from situation to situation. When you do it is similarly varied.

Well, I take the question as asking about the strategic use of atemi in aikido. It certainly is different than the strategic use of atemi in boxing. The mechanics are different, the intent is different, the desired affects are usually different, but there are strategic and tactical reasons for how any why atemi are used in different arts.

Asking what it's *really* for is like asking what life is *really* about. Or what love *really* is. Or what is a good car *really*. It just depends.

Those are useful and important discussions to have at the right time. Like on a conversational forum.

On one level it is what it is. On another level, well, it just depends.

It always just depends. But principles are there to guide people. I talk to my children a little bit every day about what life is about, about what love is, about all that sort of stuff. And one of the things I teach them all the time is "it depends".

We spend way too much time IMHO chasing after some larger, overarching simplifying explanation that gives us absolute guidance when often there simply isn't one to be had. Well, at least not one any more significant than the obvious answer...

I think it's ironic that you made this statement, because your initial response is the biggest simplification of all "I keep wanting to say the point of atemi is to hit the other fella. Nothing more, nothing less.". There's nothing wrong with that opinion.. in fact, I don't disagree, even though I would then have to qualify what I mean by "hit" and how to do that and work the specific skill set. And guess what, there are different ways, means, and times to do different kinds of "hitting" to achieve different purposes.

Life is complicated, but there are simplifying principles for just about everything I've encountered in my life from the biologic sciences, to software development, to behavior modification to child raising and so on. Principles don't necessarily eliminate complexity, but they improve our ability to comprehend and navigate it, and see the exceptions more clearly.

That's my answer and I'm sticking with it... :)

Ditto. :-)

Best,

Chris Parkerson
05-05-2012, 11:28 AM
Atemi no Jitsu
(With a Little bit of "enlightened" Tong-lin to see it through)

http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/photo/20119048/Album

TCSSEC
06-21-2012, 10:21 PM
One perspective ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPdtF2NriL8&feature=related

Simon Lai
06-26-2012, 06:31 AM
I remembered that when one incorporate serious atemi, uke can be persuaded to be more compliant.

Also, when uke is made to know that he will be expecting serious atemi, he is more alert and dare not slack, lest he/she suffers fat lips.

I did the Yoshinkan style and all our kihon waza (basic technique) emphasizes atemi.

Also in jiyu-waza, when one uses atemi, you will get to see very surprised and distracted uke and that makes for beautiful throw.

Simon

Cliff Judge
06-26-2012, 09:08 AM
I remembered that when one incorporate serious atemi, uke can be persuaded to be more compliant.

Also, when uke is made to know that he will be expecting serious atemi, he is more alert and dare not slack, lest he/she suffers fat lips.

I did the Yoshinkan style and all our kihon waza (basic technique) emphasizes atemi.

Also in jiyu-waza, when one uses atemi, you will get to see very surprised and distracted uke and that makes for beautiful throw.

Simon

I don't think surprised and distracted ukes make for a beautiful throw 90% of the time, unless you like throwing people who are tight and can't feel where they are supposed to go.

I find that if you train this way, ukes pick up very quickly on the idea that nage is going to pop his or her fist towards them and learn to deal with that. That may or may not be good training, I have no idea. But it does tend to expand the number of "beats" in a technique (literally). Just a personal opinion, lately I am more into making the whole technique a single step.

Anjisan
06-26-2012, 10:44 AM
I don't think surprised and distracted ukes make for a beautiful throw 90% of the time, unless you like throwing people who are tight and can't feel where they are supposed to go.

I find that if you train this way, ukes pick up very quickly on the idea that nage is going to pop his or her fist towards them and learn to deal with that. That may or may not be good training, I have no idea. But it does tend to expand the number of "beats" in a technique (literally). Just a personal opinion, lately I am more into making the whole technique a single step.

I agree. Ideally, I hope to have their balance broken to some degree at least as they grab or are striking. Certainly, I want their balance broken by they time we make contact minimizing the need for atemi. However, that said I do have an array of strikes that I will use if it all goes sideways or needed to grease the wheel in a particular situation because Aikido interactions are usually set up with perfect outcomes. I just never want to use them at the expense of connection, stopping their energy.

I often wonder how good many of our techniques or interactions in general would be if we were taking strikes like in a real fight. How skillfully would we be able to employ shio-nage after taking one in the kisser? Your eyes are watering,,blood running, can we stay or regain our focus to terminate the situation and restore harmony? MMA guys, boxing, and kick-boxing practitioners properly have a better idea than most Aikidoka.

Chris Li
06-26-2012, 11:00 AM
I don't think surprised and distracted ukes make for a beautiful throw 90% of the time, unless you like throwing people who are tight and can't feel where they are supposed to go.

OTOH, is a beautiful throw really a desirable outcome?

Best,

Chris

George S. Ledyard
06-26-2012, 11:35 AM
This is an article I wrote years ago but the subject keeps coming up periodically so I guess it's relevant:

The Use of Atemi in Aikido (http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm)

Cliff Judge
06-26-2012, 12:53 PM
OTOH, is a beautiful throw really a desirable outcome?

Best,

Chris

I am at a point on the curve where it seems to me that working towards making my throws as smooth and controlled and as comfortable for uke as possible in the dojo is the way to get the most out of my Aikido training. It is as simple as the fact that this seems like the most difficult way to go about things. No need to try to make my throws clumsy and awkward, that's how they've been for over ten years now. :D

The way I try to accomplish this is to take uke's balance at or before contact and lead them through the technique with as few rough edges as possible. I don't want to rely on a flinch or defensive response from my uke, so I don't like to apply joint locks for pain, and I am trying to get out of the habit of throwing the atemis of opportunity. Seems to me, based on observing myself, that the people you train with will adapt to your shenanigans. if you have a habit of sticking your fist in your partner's face they learn to expect it, perhaps they won't give you as much. if you have a habit of cranking joints, your ukes are most likely going to throw themselves into technique for you if they aren't in the mood.

And like I said above, one thing that concerns me lately is how even if its a big movement, a technique should be as simple as possible. Blam and its done - every atemi you throw in there while training is another blam. Every beat it takes you to finish the technique is a chance for uke to do something - whether or not they can hurt you based on the position they are in, they can maybe shift their balance back or change things.

hughrbeyer
06-26-2012, 02:48 PM
Which just suggests that atemi when you don't need it is as much a mistake as no atemi when you do.

Tengu859
06-26-2012, 06:03 PM
Atemi in many DR kata is done so uke can see it coming, in order to take the mind...not so much as a strike. Eventhough, when you are hit with it, it does hurt...!!! Not to say there are no strikes in DR either. :0)

Almost like a no touch throw done by some Aikido shihan...movements that move uke's mind/body that make kuzushi...

CW

Simon Lai
06-26-2012, 09:15 PM
I don't think surprised and distracted ukes make for a beautiful throw 90% of the time, unless you like throwing people who are tight and can't feel where they are supposed to go.

I find that if you train this way, ukes pick up very quickly on the idea that nage is going to pop his or her fist towards them and learn to deal with that. That may or may not be good training, I have no idea. But it does tend to expand the number of "beats" in a technique (literally). Just a personal opinion, lately I am more into making the whole technique a single step.

Throwing compliant uke does not provide good feedback/learning. Maybe good to learn the basic, but not in application part.

Throwing, ideally should have a feeling that uke has this "resistant is futile" kind of flavour to it.

My former sensei used to tell us to resist all you want, if he feels that we shut his technique completely, he'll just change direction, or just improvise the technique or change technique completely.

Once I lock him up so much, he just fall down and do a sutemi-waza. I was caught completely surprised, and luckily my ukemi was up to par at that time. Good times, good times.

The atemi part if from my own experience, especially in jiyu-waza, sometimes, at random, by throwing a non-telegraphed atemi can really throw my uke off guard and this gives me opportunity to really throw them (usually kokyu-nage type of technique), hence the term beautiful throw.

Simon

P/S: All this talk of the good old times, has made me drooling and eager to go back to the mat again.

Cliff Judge
06-27-2012, 07:51 AM
Throwing compliant uke does not provide good feedback/learning. Maybe good to learn the basic, but not in application part.

Throwing, ideally should have a feeling that uke has this "resistant is futile" kind of flavour to it.


Thanks for your comments.

What I am after is MAKING uke compliant, especially if they don't want to be. it seems like atemi should be another tool for making this kind of thing happen, but it's not been working out for me. I get too much shock in the system.

phitruong
06-27-2012, 08:30 AM
when i grabbed Ikeda sensei, he threw the atemi inside me and knocked me off balance. atemi doesn't have to be external.

Simon Lai
06-27-2012, 09:19 PM
Thanks for your comments.

What I am after is MAKING uke compliant, especially if they don't want to be. it seems like atemi should be another tool for making this kind of thing happen, but it's not been working out for me. I get too much shock in the system.

To me, atemi is one of many tool to create kuzushi (unbalancing or distraction).

Atemi works for me in creating kuzushi, if it does not, then there are many more methods to create kuzuhi, may you find one soon.

Further more I want to add that tai sabaki, kihon dosa (body movement) is a training tool to create tsukuri (body position).

Shuchu ryuku (concentrated power) and kokyu power is a process to effect kake (finishing move).

Simon

Anjisan
06-28-2012, 08:55 AM
when i grabbed Ikeda sensei, he threw the atemi inside me and knocked me off balance. atemi doesn't have to be external.

We just hosted Ikeda sensei and in September I'm going to see him again! Every time I experience him I am fascinated! It is certainly is an aspect of my training that I will to continue to explore. In addition, I certainly understand that until more of us are at a level where it can be understood and applied, grabs are the primary method of teaching this line of training. However, I have two primary concerns when it comes to this type of training whether it be classified as IS or not:

1) Early on in a confrontation the Flight or Flight response kicks in, at least for most of us mortals unless perhaps you regularly experience physical confrontations. The fine motor skills are the first to go when the adrenaline rushes in.....probably why most reality based systems, Krav Maga for example seem to have more gross motor moves. Atemi would certainly help to minimize the exposure, but begs the question of how applicable this type of response would be in a real confrontation?

2) As I mentioned earlier, hand and shoulder grabs seem to be the primary means of transmission of this type of knowledge. I understand why in a seminar format this is done. I am wondering if this type of response is employed against jab-reverse punch combinations, elbows, knee strikes etc perhaps by other teachers? Can one trust their butt to it when it counts in a violent confrontation or only after 50 years of doing it? If not, then atemi will often have to come into play to create openings to establish a connection and terminate the situation?

phitruong
06-28-2012, 10:13 AM
However, I have two primary concerns when it comes to this type of training whether it be classified as IS or not:

1) Early on in a confrontation the Flight or Flight response kicks in, at least for most of us mortals unless perhaps you regularly experience physical confrontations. The fine motor skills are the first to go when the adrenaline rushes in.....probably why most reality based systems, Krav Maga for example seem to have more gross motor moves. Atemi would certainly help to minimize the exposure, but begs the question of how applicable this type of response would be in a real confrontation?

2) As I mentioned earlier, hand and shoulder grabs seem to be the primary means of transmission of this type of knowledge. I understand why in a seminar format this is done. I am wondering if this type of response is employed against jab-reverse punch combinations, elbows, knee strikes etc perhaps by other teachers? Can one trust their butt to it when it counts in a violent confrontation or only after 50 years of doing it? If not, then atemi will often have to come into play to create openings to establish a connection and terminate the situation?

it's IS and aiki training. the way he does stuffs, the chinese called it huajin, a chinese term for aiki. that's a grossly simplified explanation. there is a different between training and "is". Ikeda went past the training stage. he's in the "is" stage. he is aiki. everything he does. that's the essence of the "do", the way. when you are eating, breathing, walking, living and everything you do is aiki, then your response, regardless of external conditions, is aiki. aiki-do. many of us still think about it. i don't think he thinks about it. he would have to think about it in order to explain to us, but he just does it. same goes for Saotome sensei. he just is. there are many in the IS/aiki field who are the same way, not necessary from aikido. they just are. they got the point that they just are. and the kind of things, that they can do, are just out of this world.

Cliff Judge
06-28-2012, 11:29 AM
We just hosted Ikeda sensei and in September I'm going to see him again! Every time I experience him I am fascinated! It is certainly is an aspect of my training that I will to continue to explore. In addition, I certainly understand that until more of us are at a level where it can be understood and applied, grabs are the primary method of teaching this line of training. However, I have two primary concerns when it comes to this type of training whether it be classified as IS or not:

1) Early on in a confrontation the Flight or Flight response kicks in, at least for most of us mortals unless perhaps you regularly experience physical confrontations. The fine motor skills are the first to go when the adrenaline rushes in.....probably why most reality based systems, Krav Maga for example seem to have more gross motor moves. Atemi would certainly help to minimize the exposure, but begs the question of how applicable this type of response would be in a real confrontation?

2) As I mentioned earlier, hand and shoulder grabs seem to be the primary means of transmission of this type of knowledge. I understand why in a seminar format this is done. I am wondering if this type of response is employed against jab-reverse punch combinations, elbows, knee strikes etc perhaps by other teachers? Can one trust their butt to it when it counts in a violent confrontation or only after 50 years of doing it? If not, then atemi will often have to come into play to create openings to establish a connection and terminate the situation?

The type of training you do with Ikeda Sensei is meant to change the way you organize your body and your energy to interact with whatever your partner is doing. This is actually the same goal that any "reality-based" martial art like KM has - to change the way you act and react in the slivers of an instant before you can think about it. I don't think there is much point worrying about application. It should just "come out" if you've learned it.

Trying to do this type of stuff in a more live training scenario is a great idea, but it raises (;) ) the question: if you can't make it work while taking your time with a static grab, is it going to be easier to make it work when you have a split-second to connect to a strike?

D-Ring
06-28-2012, 06:27 PM
What is atemi really for?

Making your point really, really clear. :p

Ahoy,

Dave

Chris Evans
08-06-2012, 10:03 AM
all martial arts techniques start with Atemi, but if that Atemi to create an "opening" ends the physical-conflict right there then there's no need to proceed further. often, most of us, have not cultivated enough skills to resolve the conflict at the initial contact, so we must follow-through on our commitment.

i have seen someone hit so aptly, with suprise & timing, on the throat that the more powerfully built aggressor no longer wanted to continue, as he got off the floor.

Kevin Leavitt
08-06-2012, 10:54 AM
Chris, not sure exactly how you are defining Atemi...but I don't think it is true that all martial arts technques start with atemi. For example I can tackle someone or push them over a couch, or even a cliff and end the fight right there. I can grab them, move them and place them in a position with flex cuffs that involves no hitting at all. They may still have the desire to fight, but no longer possess the means. Personally for me, I don't care too much about their will or desire, I care primarily about their means.

Chris Evans
08-06-2012, 11:38 AM
Chris, not sure exactly how you are defining Atemi...but I don't think it is true that all martial arts technques start with atemi. For example I can tackle someone or push them over a couch, or even a cliff and end the fight right there. I can grab them, move them and place them in a position with flex cuffs that involves no hitting at all. They may still have the desire to fight, but no longer possess the means. Personally for me, I don't care too much about their will or desire, I care primarily about their means.

ha hah, defined as the "initial move." the initial move can be the direct hit or seize, obviously, but for vs. a stronger, more prepared, opponent, that distraction can help make it happen.

Michael Douglas
08-06-2012, 02:08 PM
You can't suddenly redefine Atemi as the "initial move".
Atemi is striking the opponent, and not gently.
I'll go along with what Simon said ititially, but he got disagreed with plenty, so ... oh well.

Ikkyo begins with Atemi! (Poncy Ikkyo doesn't)

jamie yugawa
08-06-2012, 03:48 PM
Here is an interesting article talking about atemi http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/en/articles/o-sensei-didnt-practice-aikido

jonreading
08-08-2012, 09:59 PM
I do not buy an explanation of atemi that empowers nage and not uke. Atemi is striking and may be employed by either uke or nage. You cannot create a structure for nage atemi and then say, "but uke should not do this."

Atemi is striking, a tool. Don't give it morals, or romance, or fantastic powers.

Ledyard sensei's article is a very good read.

miser
08-25-2012, 11:51 AM
Atemi can be used for a number of purposes of course, but I tend to see these purposes as summarised by saying that atemi gives tori the opportunity to blend. In circumstances where there is either nothing to blend with or blending leaves oneself vulnerable, atemi can be applied.

ChrisHein
08-25-2012, 12:24 PM
Atemi is striking, a tool. Don't give it morals, or romance, or fantastic powers.



Nicely said.

aiki-jujutsuka
08-25-2012, 12:58 PM
atemi is important in aiki-jujutsu. The way my instructors have explained its importance is that in self-defence situations it can help to change your attacker's mindset from predator to prey - by delivering an atemi it shifts their mindset, even if only momentarily giving you a small window to execute a technique. Sometimes when an attacker doesn't over extend themselves naturally, atemi is important to off-balance them so as to be used as an aid to aiki.

In the kata, for example ude osae dori, uke grabs and with their free arm goes to strike while tori delivers an atemi pre-emptively in order to block the strike and allow the space and time necessary to perform the technique.

Chris Evans
08-27-2012, 12:34 PM
an aikidoka/sensei told me atemi is 90% of aikido, however, i rarely see any atemi practice in aikido dojo, so I had better keep up with my karate training, concurrently.

dang, those back of wrist push up hurt so good. :)

graham christian
08-27-2012, 12:43 PM
Atemi meets. Atemi has the effect of realigning and diffusing. Atemi is part of ikkyo I would say.

Peace.G.