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MM
04-14-2012, 11:01 AM
Some of you will find this interesting. Seem familiar? :)

http://youtube.ng/watch?v=EEhJwLifhVI&list=UUXkn1aoWW_46_4UKuI54-dg&index=2&feature=plcp

Ernesto Lemke
04-14-2012, 01:09 PM
Uhu...but I think "the other guy" does a better job both in showing and explaining. End part was interesting if you'd seen it from the side. Should seem familiar to some as well ;)

MM
04-14-2012, 01:39 PM
Thought the video showed how universal some of the concepts are. Here is a guy from Hong Jungsheng's lineage stating similar ideologies. And, it was interesting to see how this guy saw the overlap in internal methodology between Chinese Chen style and Isshinryu karate. Course, we knew that, already. :)

Mark

Thomas Campbell
04-14-2012, 03:25 PM
I met Michael Calandra 12 years ago and he was already showing good taiji skills. He's been training with Chen Zhonghua all that time and more, and his progress in understanding really shows in his teaching. The key point is that in this style of Chen taiji, the key is in the solo form sequence practice--"the form is everything," as Calandra says at the end. The solo form is the place where they work on solo body conditioning and coordination, through repetition of the form (20 to 30 times, sometimes more, every day, for the serious practitioners). Beginning exercises like the positive and negative circle are more for explication.

Yes "it's all from China," as Calandra says, but the consistency and logic of the teaching is fairly modern. Chen Zhonghua's teacher, Hong Junsheng, did not learn this way from Chen Fake. HJS really examined the movement logic of the Chen Yilu form in close detail and developed practice principles that I think improved the chances of his students "getting it." Chen Zhonghua with his background in teaching and his excellent translation skills has improved on the teaching of HJS, in my view.

That said--CZH's explanations and skills are not quite the same as his senior, Liu Chengde. I think their movement and understanding differ in some key ways. Dan may have some thoughts about the differences, since he's played with Liu and studied CZH's movement on video clips in some detail. I think Liu focuses on pulling through the kua and the connections with dantien and lower back (yao) more than on biomechanical alignment and turning of the hip joints.

Howard Prior
04-15-2012, 01:10 AM
Thought the video showed how universal some of the concepts are.

Thanks for posting this video. Both it and the comments following it are interesting.

I have a question related to a movement described in the video.

Early on Mr. Calandra states that "the rule is that the knees never move side-to-side" and he moves back and forth to demonstrate what he means. He then asks the audience to pay attention to his right knee and points out that "it stays on this line" and "it only goes down". He points out that as his right knee goes down his left knee comes up. After a few moments he goes on to his left knee going down and his right coming up. He goes on to say a bit more about things not moving and turning, turning, turning.

I can't tell if it's camera angle, a conceptual misunderstanding on my part, or a misunderstanding of what I think I see but it looks to me as though his knees are moving laterally - which is what I would call side-to-side.

I realize I may be casting a line and missing the boat in even noting this detail but I am hoping someone may explain how it should be in greater detail or why it is what it should be.

Lee Salzman
04-15-2012, 01:31 AM
I don't mean this as a comment in particular against this man, but whenever I see explications of tai chi like this, there is always one thing that strikes me as, well, just odd: the treatment of the spine as a stick that just rotates axially, and the translation of the torso in space as only that vertically bricked unit.

When he does that one karate stance to show how he can't take the push, and then when he "splits", you can see that his torso is still being levered precariously. All of the strain is essentially being focused into his hip and stomach muscles to bridge the harsh change in direction between his leg and his torso, rather than uniformly distributed throughout every joint in his body.

There is a much easier and stupid simpler way to take that push down: arc the spine into a curved bridge that takes that it down and minimizes leverage at every single point in the body, you just allow the spine to flex into that bridge. No "split" necessary. You could combine that with the splitting to make it even more powerful, but the split doesn't have to be the primary means by which it is done, no?

But, well, I never see this in most tai chi. It is probably just a limitation of my present understanding, but still, this always strikes me as odd.

MM
04-15-2012, 08:16 AM
Thanks for posting this video. Both it and the comments following it are interesting.

I have a question related to a movement described in the video.

Early on Mr. Calandra states that "the rule is that the knees never move side-to-side" and he moves back and forth to demonstrate what he means. He then asks the audience to pay attention to his right knee and points out that "it stays on this line" and "it only goes down". He points out that as his right knee goes down his left knee comes up. After a few moments he goes on to his left knee going down and his right coming up. He goes on to say a bit more about things not moving and turning, turning, turning.

I can't tell if it's camera angle, a conceptual misunderstanding on my part, or a misunderstanding of what I think I see but it looks to me as though his knees are moving laterally - which is what I would call side-to-side.

I realize I may be casting a line and missing the boat in even noting this detail but I am hoping someone may explain how it should be in greater detail or why it is what it should be.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I wish I would have known about this seminar before it happened. I would have gone. There were a few things in the vid that I would like to have talked to him about. I called the host dojo but they don't teach Chen style there. Mr. Calandra was just there for a seminar. Maybe I'll catch him the next time around.

Mark

DodgingRain
04-15-2012, 09:16 AM
I am not a student of Mr. Calandra's, nor his teacher.

I believe it is a combination of the camera angle being slightly off center, as well as the human body not being capable of replicating a perfect hinge.

The goal of Mr. Calandra's teacher's style is to rotate, just like a door hinge. Unfortunately the human body was not designed to move in that way; which is why it is so difficult for others to deal with, as well as why there is so much training time necessary.

Because the human body cannot fully and perfectly replicate the action of the hinge, we can only get closer and closer to this ideal.. the person who can get the closest to establishing a real hinge in their body will have the most skill.

So you have to establish a vertical axis in your body to act as a hinge for your body to rotate on. A hinge has a fixed point, a point that does not move (cannot move), as well as the part that rotates around this non moving fixed point.

In the video, he is demonstrating how he can produce a vertical axis within his body to rotate on like a hinge. Establishing this axis in the center of his body (spine) makes him very agile and able to neutralize and redirect without displacing any space (moving in space). You can also establish this axis on either kua/hip and switch to either side without moving in space, which produces different effects.

In his system, allowing your axis (hinge) to move in space (rather than stay fixed) is considered an error. Imagine if the door hinge was not screwed in tightly and wobbled. Imagine what happens when a wheel axis is bent/loose. The reason the rotation has any power and works the way it does, is because there is a central point that stays fixed/does not move ("wuji"). If you allow the axis to move and displace space, you are wobbling, and your potential power is dissipated.

The point of his knees not moving laterally was to show the difference between his style and other taiji styles. Most every other taiji style (chen village style as well) moves their axises alll over the place - the biggest most obvious indicator of this is the knees moving side to side. If the knees move laterally like that, it is guaranteed that the spine (or any axis) is moving (displacing space/tossing) as well.

Of course you can combine this with rounding out and making the straight parts curved and direct it to the ground, but this was only a demonstration of a specific principle that has much more implications and applications later.

DodgingRain
04-15-2012, 09:55 AM
Mr Calandra's teacher (higher level), with a better angle demonstrating something similar. I think he is switching the axis between his two kuas/hips in this clip (rather than using his spine as the axis) but you can still see the principle in action more clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IkQ1ghgXaYs#t=95s

Howard Prior
04-15-2012, 10:18 AM
I believe it is a combination of the camera angle being slightly off center, as well as the human body not being capable of replicating a perfect hinge.


I appreciate your fuller description and the context you provide. Very clear.

And thanks for the second video too.

Howard Prior
04-15-2012, 06:50 PM
There were a few things in the vid that I would like to have talked to him about

Care to share?

gregstec
04-15-2012, 07:01 PM
I have been looking into some of the Chen stuff lately, and IMO, the video shows physical manifestations of some good basic principles and concepts associated with aiki IS/IP - granted, they are of a higher level then the basic concepts Mark and I went back and forth on in the Elbow thread, but still at a basic level nonetheless.

Just some other comments - I liked his disclosure that as you gain skills, additional layers are added on and your form changes; as in the knees not moving when performing at a higher level, but still doing the split of energies. The thing I did not like was his comment at the end about the practice of the form is where to start learning the skills; to me, this is working from the outside in to gain IS/IP skills - I prefer to work from the inside out by focusing on the internal energies that lead to the physical manifestation of form.

Greg

DodgingRain
04-15-2012, 07:40 PM
In that particular style of taiji Mr. Calandra is representing, they emphasize a lot of training of basic foundation exercises to condition the body to move according to the principles/restrictions of their style; the form is the natural progression of learning to use your conditioning and 'internal energies' in many different situations/variations/angles/levels/etc. that could occur in live situations.

They have basic foundation exercises to condition your body to move according to their style's principles where you can ' focus on the internal energies that lead to the physical manifestation of form' and connections, but if you want to be able to use those connections and conditioning in live situations then the next step would be to learn the form - thats where you really learn the skills. Without doing the necessary basic training, you will not be able to learn anything. If he tells you to rotate here, and you cant... whats the point? The form was designed to explore those 'internal energies' and connections you develop in basic foundation conditioning in a wide variety of different angles/levels/positions/stances/etc. Without learning the form, you will not know how to apply the conditioning you developed in the basic foundations.

Different arts have their own basic exercises to develop and condition the body according to their strategy and techniques/applications.
Different arts also have their own form/vessel/container for the purpose of exploring that conditioning in movement and in interaction.

It seems to be pretty standard progression.

John Connolly
04-17-2012, 11:25 AM
The original link in this thread is broken. :mad:

DH
04-17-2012, 09:36 PM
Some of you will find this interesting. Seem familiar? :)

http://youtube.ng/watch?v=EEhJwLifhVI&list=UUXkn1aoWW_46_4UKuI54-dg&index=2&feature=plcp
I think this guy is incredible.......ly misinformed!
He is quoting someone elses information without any real familiarity with the material and he is flat out wrong in many areas. I found myself almost laughing during this. I know this guy...from years ago... he studied a little of this....and started teaching it.....a little of that...and there he was claiming lineage in it.
This is a little more difficult to pull of as the information is what counts, not knowing some kata forms. The info-or lack thereof speaks for itself. He is in over his head!
Dan

Howard Prior
04-18-2012, 08:52 AM
The original link in this thread is broken. :mad:

Maybe not. The note says the embedding has been disabled by request and goes on to suggest that it be watched on YouTube. If, on the note, you click on the underlined "Watch on YouTube" you might still be able to see it - I can.

Howard Prior
04-18-2012, 09:15 AM
I think this guy is incredible.......ly misinformed!
He is quoting someone elses information without any real familiarity with the material and he is flat out wrong in many areas. I found myself almost laughing during this. I know this guy...from years ago... he studied a little of this....and started teaching it.....a little of that...and there he was claiming lineage in it.
This is a little more difficult to pull of as the information is what counts, not knowing some kata forms. The info-or lack thereof speaks for itself. He is in over his head!
Dan

Thanks for the clarification.

It would be interesting, of course, to catch a glimmer of what seems familiar and similar and better taught by another guy compared to what is laughable or misinformed in the presentation.

HL1978
04-18-2012, 09:26 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

It would be interesting, of course, to catch a glimmer of what seems familiar and similar and better taught by another guy compared to what is laughable or misinformed in the presentation.

Analyze video of some of the Big name chens. There should be a number of people who can note the differences or similarities.

I wrote some stuff on another forum, but I want to see some commentary here.

Howard Prior
04-18-2012, 11:04 PM
...but I want to see some commentary here.

I'm hopeful.

HL1978
04-19-2012, 08:08 PM
I'm hopeful.

How about this for starting a dialouge...

Why does he get popped up in the video, when he is talking about increasing pressure in the feet...

Howard Prior
04-22-2012, 11:28 PM
How about this for starting a dialouge...

Why does he get popped up in the video, when he is talking about increasing pressure in the feet...

I tried looking over the video again but couldn't quite place just what you were talking about. Clues?

thisisnotreal
04-23-2012, 09:28 AM
Howard, Prior to what?
Had to ask.

Howard Prior
04-23-2012, 09:37 AM
Howard, Prior to what?
Had to ask.

Dunno, but the word helps whenever I forget how to spell my last name.

thisisnotreal
04-23-2012, 09:39 AM
How about this for starting a dialouge...

Why does he get popped up in the video, when he is talking about increasing pressure in the feet...
Cause it means he's 'under' him?

HL1978
04-23-2012, 10:11 AM
Cause it means he's 'under' him?

The guy giving the seminar can't be under the other guy, if his own foot pops up as a result of the push. Now with that in mind how does that effect the rest of what he is demonstrating?

Did you mean the pusher got under the seminar instructor? I'm not convinced that is the case, rahter I think he simply gave a push until it overcame what the pushee could take.

HL1978
04-23-2012, 10:15 AM
I tried looking over the video again but couldn't quite place just what you were talking about. Clues?

i can't see the video right now, it seems to link to some baseball video. I was referring to the part early on before the instructor spoke about isshinryu's seiuchin kata and he did his knee up knee down twist.

Howard Prior
04-23-2012, 11:01 AM
i can't see the video right now, it seems to link to some baseball video. I was referring to the part early on before the instructor spoke about isshinryu's seiuchin kata and he did his knee up knee down twist.

Maybe try posted link, look for "Watch On You Tube" and click. When game comes up go to 335 video button and click. May still be able to get to it. I can.

But, all-in-all, I'm not sure it is worth it. Nonetheless, I'll try to look at it again and look at the noted parts.

gregstec
04-23-2012, 11:33 AM
The guy giving the seminar can't be under the other guy, if his own foot pops up as a result of the push. Now with that in mind how does that effect the rest of what he is demonstrating?

Did you mean the pusher got under the seminar instructor? I'm not convinced that is the case, rahter I think he simply gave a push until it overcame what the pushee could take.
I think the pusher got over or under the pushee's linear ground path and overcame what pushee could take because the pushee did not absorb and re-direct the energy of the push. :)

Greg

DodgingRain
04-23-2012, 12:19 PM
How about this for starting a dialouge...

Why does he get popped up in the video, when he is talking about increasing pressure in the feet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EEhJwLifhVI#t=222s

... you mean where he says, "He cant push me. He can try all day.. Lift this foot and everything, still wouldnt work. Because the power is here, the alignment is here." ???

It seems he purposefully lifted his foot to show the mobility and agility of the method, but lets ignore that part. you guys kill me.

HL1978
04-23-2012, 01:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EEhJwLifhVI#t=222s

... you mean where he says, "He cant push me. He can try all day.. Lift this foot and everything, still wouldnt work. Because the power is here, the alignment is here." ???

It seems he purposefully lifted his foot to show the mobility and agility of the method, but lets ignore that part. you guys kill me.

I'm referring from 3:00-3:17 where he gets popped up while in what they refer to as seiuchin stance in isshinryu, but looks sort of like mabu, to where he does his knee up knee down twist to the left.

I'f I was splitting as Chalandra later demos at the 3:45 marker, I'd prefer to have more of the force going into the front foot, anyone have ideas why that might be the case? I'm not arguing that it should always be the case, but how might the pusher percieve the push differently if it came from the front rather than the back in what Chalandra is demoing. If Chalandra is "Splitting" could he do the same sort of thing by picking up the rear leg?

Other things to look at, when Michael Chalandra lifts his front foot, where does his body go? What does this indicate?

Keeping in mind what I said earlier about staying under, why does Chalandra show a twist or turn inwards? What does that result in, what does it mean that he is doing?

What about the whole knee up knee down thing? What does that indicate?

In the aggregate is this what the big name Chen's are demoing which seems to be the kind of gold standard for IS?

Goodness gracious, there are a ton of things we could talk about in this video, but there is kind of a logic which needs to be followed and which people should explain when they comment favorably or otherwise in this video. Doesn't really matter who you are. Otherwise its kind of a whole, hey guys this is cool without anyone really learning anything.

Brett, what do you see going on at 3:45?

DodgingRain
04-23-2012, 01:52 PM
I'm referring from 3:00-3:17 where he gets popped up while in what they refer to as seiuchin stance in isshinryu, but looks sort of like mabu, to where he does his knee up knee down twist to the left.

The reason he gets 'popped up' at that point is because is trying to demonstrate the structural flaws of that isshinryu stance. He then demonstrates the knee up/knee down turn and tells him he can even take a step toward him.

I'f I was splitting as Chalandra later demos at the 3:45 marker, I'd prefer to have more of the force going into the front foot, anyone have ideas why that might be the case? I'm not arguing that it should always be the case, but how might the pusher percieve the push differently if it came from the front rather than the back in what Chalandra is demoing. If Chalandra is "Splitting" could he do the same sort of thing by picking up the rear leg?

Can you do that?

Everything I have heard always says that the power comes from the rear foot. Sure you can have power in the front foot as well if you like, to be more stable and prepared for a sudden pull, but he is showing one specific principle and the mobility and agility of it by lifting his foot. There are many MANY variations and different ways of absorbing/neutralizing/redirecting a force/push. I never assumed this was his only method of dealing with a push/force coming into him.


Keeping in mind what I said earlier about staying under, why does Chalandra show a twist or turn inwards? What does that result in, what does it mean that he is doing?

What about the whole knee up knee down thing? What does that indicate?

Indicates he is demonstrating rotation and turning on a fixed axis like he said he was? :confused:

In the aggregate is this what the big name Chen's are demoing which seems to be the kind of gold standard for IS?

Goodness gracious, there are a ton of things we could talk about in this video, but there is kind of a logic which needs to be followed and which people should explain when they comment favorably or otherwise in this video. Doesn't really matter who you are. Otherwise its kind of a whole, hey guys this is cool without anyone really learning anything.

Brett, what do you see going on at 3:45?

Considering that he is not a big name Chen, no I dont think this is what the big name Chen's are demoing because this is just a student with student level (rudimentary) skills.

He popped up in his demo though, so I agree.. this guy does not have a clue!! Trying to demonstrate basic principles to beginner students in an introductory class? pretty much a big waste of time. If he cant even successfully demonstrate most of the different variations (among dozens) of absorbing and neutralizing a push, then this is a sad display indeed.

His mechanics are clearly flawed.

HL1978
04-23-2012, 02:38 PM
The reason he gets 'popped up' at that point is because is trying to demonstrate the structural flaws of that isshinryu stance. He then demonstrates the knee up/knee down turn and tells him he can even take a step toward him.

Sure, I can accept that he allows himself to get popped up at that point to illustrate a prinicple of movement. Now I've dropped all sorts of hints already (I think more than a few people can follow), but how is what happens at 3:45 related to what happens at the 3:00 mark? What do both indicate about Chalandra?

Can you do that?

This isn't about me and what I can do. I will say this, for the aunkai "mabu walking", Forest Chang's I dream of jeanie exercise, or various other peoples exercises where they place a bo on their bellies and have to walk, you will find it much easier to do if you can figure out how to arrange yourself "internally" so that it feels as though all your weight is in that front foot. I doubt in reality that 100% of the weight actually goes into it, maybe just a few percent. Given what I've said above you can probably come to a conclusion as to wether or not I can or can not....

Everything I have heard always says that the power comes from the rear foot. Sure you can have power in the front foot as well if you like, to be more stable and prepared for a sudden pull, but he is showing one specific principle and the mobility and agility of it by lifting his foot. There are many MANY variations and different ways of absorbing/neutralizing/redirecting a force/push. I never assumed this was his only method of dealing with a push/force coming into him.

Mike Sigman wrote a whole bunch of stuff on this topic here and elswhere. It is easiest to ground a push into the rear leg, later on you can figure out how to get it into the front, though ideally I feel that you want both feet to feel "heavy" at all times, even if one foot is off the ground. Now I don't want to give too much away (though I gave away a lot already with respect to one mechanic) as I won't post an analysis for this video for a while as I would rather spur discussion on it by all the various people on this board.

Since you are familiar with grounding into the rear foot, what might change if that were to come from the front? What might change if both feet are "heavy"?

Indicates he is demonstrating rotation and turning on a fixed axis like he said he was? :confused:

I don't disagree, but why does he have to do it? Remember what happens at both 3:00 and later at 3:45 . (I gave it away...)

Considering that he is not a big name Chen, no I dont think this is what the big name Chen's are demoing because this is just a student with student level (rudimentary) skills.

Of course I don't expect him to look exactly like a big name chen, but what about his movement indicates that he is or is not moving like a big name chen. I've given some hints one way or the other..

He popped up in his demo though, so I agree.. this guy does not have a clue!! Trying to demonstrate basic principles to beginner students in an introductory class? pretty much a big waste of time. If he cant even successfully demonstrate most of the different variations (among dozens) of absorbing and neutralizing a push, then this is a sad display indeed.

His mechanics are clearly flawed.

Well, the markers at 3:00 and 3:45 show something particularly important, no scratch that extremely important coupled with what he demos at 3:17

JW
04-24-2012, 01:11 PM
One problem with martial arts is that a person can have so many different things going on at the same time.
Let's say you have a habit of LEANING, or BRACING on the back foot to neutralize a push. In calm demos, you might not notice you are doing it. So, unless you ruthlessly rip those habits out of your motor behavior repertoire, you may always be doing them, no matter what else you are also doing.

So you can learn how to "rotate dantian," "ki connection," "power release," or "splitting," or anything else. But when critics look at you on video, they are going to see all the other things you are ALSO doing, especially the bad things. Each bad thing that you cling to prevents you from adopting a new (better) motor behavior for the purpose in question.

Recently, the way I've been looking at my training is: I know when I make progress in good things, but others will always pick up on my LACK of progress in stopping bad things. Video helps, mirrors help, randori can help.. but posting a video will always help!

jdostie
04-24-2012, 11:21 PM
Sure, I can accept that he allows himself to get popped up at that point to illustrate a prinicple of movement. Now I've dropped all sorts of hints already (I think more than a few people can follow), but how is what happens at 3:45 related to what happens at the 3:00 mark? What do both indicate about Chalandra?

This isn't about me and what I can do. I will say this, for the aunkai "mabu walking", Forest Chang's I dream of jeanie exercise, or various other peoples exercises where they place a bo on their bellies and have to walk, you will find it much easier to do if you can figure out how to arrange yourself "internally" so that it feels as though all your weight is in that front foot. I doubt in reality that 100% of the weight actually goes into it, maybe just a few percent. Given what I've said above you can probably come to a conclusion as to wether or not I can or can not....

Mike Sigman wrote a whole bunch of stuff on this topic here and elswhere. It is easiest to ground a push into the rear leg, later on you can figure out how to get it into the front, though ideally I feel that you want both feet to feel "heavy" at all times, even if one foot is off the ground. Now I don't want to give too much away (though I gave away a lot already with respect to one mechanic) as I won't post an analysis for this video for a while as I would rather spur discussion on it by all the various people on this board.

Since you are familiar with grounding into the rear foot, what might change if that were to come from the front? What might change if both feet are "heavy"?

I don't disagree, but why does he have to do it? Remember what happens at both 3:00 and later at 3:45 . (I gave it away...)

Of course I don't expect him to look exactly like a big name chen, but what about his movement indicates that he is or is not moving like a big name chen. I've given some hints one way or the other..

Well, the markers at 3:00 and 3:45 show something particularly important, no scratch that extremely important coupled with what he demos at 3:17

I don't know anything about this stuff, but from what I can see, it looks like he's putting his weight forward and into where he is receiving the push, and applying pressure on a vector from his back leg to his shoulder. What I would do, I think. I'm missing some things here for sure about what 'iis or is not happening, and what should be happening." That's what it looks like to me.

So, is that what you are referring to? At both points, you can see where the stance firms, where it looks like his own energy moment of mass moves slightly forward.

HL1978
04-25-2012, 08:30 AM
I don't know anything about this stuff, but from what I can see, it looks like he's putting his weight forward and into where he is receiving the push, and applying pressure on a vector from his back leg to his shoulder. What I would do, I think. I'm missing some things here for sure about what 'iis or is not happening, and what should be happening." That's what it looks like to me.

So, is that what you are referring to? At both points, you can see where the stance firms, where it looks like his own energy moment of mass moves slightly forward.

Yes, that is what I am referring to. Now if that is the case, is he increasing pressure on his foot or not if he goes forward when he lifts his front foot? Would his rear foot remain heavy or go light? Is he under the pusher or not?

I will also put up a drawing in a bit with regards to the front and rear foot.

Note we still haven't even touched the knee up knee down portion.

HL1978
04-25-2012, 10:44 AM
1004

Now while I doubt you can put all of your weight into the front foot. If you were to arrange yourself so that more weight went into the front foot (without making the rear foot go light or weightless), how would it feel different for the pusher?

Compare the two arrows in the above picture, one from the rear foot, and one from the front foot.

What other advantages might result, if for example you wanted to walk forwards?

jdostie
04-25-2012, 11:15 AM
Ok. I am thinking the knee up/down is just rotational movement to align his rear leg with the horizontal vector of force.

I also think he can lift his foot while his moment of mass is forward only because there is a equal opposing force, otherwise he'd fall forward.

More, ther would need to be strength to push back, because his leg is at an angle to the horizontal vector of force, the push in the leg mus be greater so xcos(angle) is equal to that force. The stronger opponent wins. Or, if the opponent pushes slightly up making that useless, unless he is ae to some how cause the opponent to push more ore less into the leg in spite of himself, and hopefully more or less imperceptively. In my mind, the gross movement is some sort of shoulder rotation If that were succesful, the opponent is pushing past the shoulder and down. Rotate the trunk unexpectedly and he 'falls' or slips past Not sure if this is accurate, or relates to your point at all.

In an instructional environment, sometimes the effort to allow people to see something you give something else up. Could that be part of this given that his first instruction was not to lean?

ChrisMoses
04-25-2012, 11:25 AM
1004

Now while I doubt you can put all of your weight into the front foot. If you were to arrange yourself so that more weight went into the front foot (without making the rear foot go light or weightless), how would it feel different for the pusher?

Compare the two arrows in the above picture, one from the rear foot, and one from the front foot.

What other advantages might result, if for example you wanted to walk forwards?

Awesome graphic! Seriously, I love me some MS Paint!

One way I've described this is that when you ground force into your back foot exclusively, you actually create a stable bridge between yourself and the pusher. If all you're concerned about is not being pushed, yay, you did it. But if you want to have any hope of turning these static drills into dynamic martial movement, it's a dead end.You have to be able to be able to ground (receive, root, direct...) that push force down through the front leg. Why? Well looking at Hunter's image, grounding through the front leg is under the incoming push, so it's disrupting the pusher's stability. When it comes through the back leg *exclusively* it is in opposition to the pusher's force. HOW to actually do that is probably outside the scope of a forum post. And all the usual disclaimers, this is glossing over a lot, overly simplistic, etc, etc, etc...

Bonus, more MSPAINT!

DH
04-25-2012, 01:11 PM
Awesome graphic! Seriously, I love me some MS Paint!

One way I've described this is that when you ground force into your back foot exclusively, you actually create a stable bridge between yourself and the pusher. If all you're concerned about is not being pushed, yay, you did it. But if you want to have any hope of turning these static drills into dynamic martial movement, it's a dead end.You have to be able to be able to ground (receive, root, direct...) that push force down through the front leg. Why? Well looking at Hunter's image, grounding through the front leg is under the incoming push, so it's disrupting the pusher's stability. When it comes through the back leg *exclusively* it is in opposition to the pusher's force. HOW to actually do that is probably outside the scope of a forum post. And all the usual disclaimers, this is glossing over a lot, overly simplistic, etc, etc, etc...

Bonus, more MSPAINT!
Yup
And it is yet another reason those one legged army guys who keep trying to make four legged animals out of people with seriously connected bodies end up being so easy to handle.
1. It is too slow and is dependent on a connection to the other person
2. You feel it coming a mile away

THEY are relying on making a bridge with you...but there is a way to train your body that makes it damn difficult....DAMN difficult to bridge or connect to. Most often when THEY try it they are gone and they don't know why. You are under them before they started... and under is just one small piece of your available arsenal.
Dan
By the time my enemy arrives....my ki has arrived behind them......Ueshiba Morihei

DH
04-25-2012, 01:14 PM
Ok. I am thinking the knee up/down is just rotational movement to align his rear leg with the horizontal vector of force.

I also think he can lift his foot while his moment of mass is forward only because there is a equal opposing force, otherwise he'd fall forward.

More, there would need to be strength to push back, because his leg is at an angle to the horizontal vector of force, the push in the leg mus be greater so xcos(angle) is equal to that force. The stronger opponent wins. Or, if the opponent pushes slightly up making that useless, unless he is ae to some how cause the opponent to push more ore less into the leg in spite of himself, and hopefully more or less imperceptively. In my mind, the gross movement is some sort of shoulder rotation If that were succesful, the opponent is pushing past the shoulder and down. Rotate the trunk unexpectedly and he 'falls' or slips past Not sure if this is accurate, or relates to your point at all.

In an instructional environment, sometimes the effort to allow people to see something you give something else up. Could that be part of this given that his first instruction was not to lean?
I don't have time to address this but it is almost completely wrong and really only deals with dumb force (hard uneducated force) to a marginally connected body frame
Later tonight.
Dan

jdostie
04-25-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't have time to address this but it is almost completely wrong and really only deals with dumb force (hard uneducated force) to a marginally connected body frame
Later tonight.
Dan

Only almost? I have a feeling that 'almost' was only to be magnanimous.

I didnt try to be wrong, but didn't expect to be right either. But sometime to learn, you have to participate in the conversation, be willing to be wrong so you can find out whe it's wrong.

Eric Joyce
04-25-2012, 05:52 PM
I'm referring from 3:00-3:17 where he gets popped up while in what they refer to as seiuchin stance in isshinryu, but looks sort of like mabu, to where he does his knee up knee down twist to the left.

I'f I was splitting as Chalandra later demos at the 3:45 marker, I'd prefer to have more of the force going into the front foot, anyone have ideas why that might be the case? I'm not arguing that it should always be the case, but how might the pusher percieve the push differently if it came from the front rather than the back in what Chalandra is demoing. If Chalandra is "Splitting" could he do the same sort of thing by picking up the rear leg?

Other things to look at, when Michael Chalandra lifts his front foot, where does his body go? What does this indicate?

Keeping in mind what I said earlier about staying under, why does Chalandra show a twist or turn inwards? What does that result in, what does it mean that he is doing?

What about the whole knee up knee down thing? What does that indicate?

In the aggregate is this what the big name Chen's are demoing which seems to be the kind of gold standard for IS?

Goodness gracious, there are a ton of things we could talk about in this video, but there is kind of a logic which needs to be followed and which people should explain when they comment favorably or otherwise in this video. Doesn't really matter who you are. Otherwise its kind of a whole, hey guys this is cool without anyone really learning anything.

Brett, what do you see going on at 3:45?

Hi Hunter,

I am new to this but I want to take a stab at it so please..be gentle. :)

I would venture to guess that if I was able to direct the force in the front foot (based off the YouTube clip at 3:45) that you would be able to get under him more and either stop him completely or get under him to pop him back...really causing him to be off balance. I don't know if the connection to him is any different if I shift the incoming force to my back vs. my front foot. Like I said, I am new to this.

Also, in the "horse stance" example he gave at minute 3:00 where he is off balanced from a side push, shouldn't Chalandra be able to remain in that stance without loosing balance even being pushed on the side?

HL1978
04-25-2012, 08:07 PM
Hi Hunter,

I am new to this but I want to take a stab at it so please..be gentle. :)

I would venture to guess that if I was able to direct the force in the front foot (based off the YouTube clip at 3:45) that you would be able to get under him more and either stop him completely or get under him to pop him back...really causing him to be off balance. I don't know if the connection to him is any different if I shift the incoming force to my back vs. my front foot. Like I said, I am new to this.

Also, in the "horse stance" example he gave at minute 3:00 where he is off balanced from a side push, shouldn't Chalandra be able to remain in that stance without loosing balance even being pushed on the side?

Now with all this talk of being "under", what exactly do people think it means to be "under" the other guy?


You could certainly be "under" from either the front foot or the rear, and could stop the pusher from either point. The front foot provides additonal mobility as you can then bring the rear foot forwards and take a step towards your opponent without "pushing" them backwards. (There is a HUGE temptation to push someone when you feel them go light/weak, but thats bad) Rather as you are under them, they will basically push themselves backwards. One might also see how this may allow them to kick an opponent as well.

If I direct more of the persons push into my front foot, it does seem to pop them more upwards like the vector I drew. Putting it in the rear foot still allows for an upwards vector, but people start to push against the floor along that line and instead of increasing pressure into the rear foot, it decreases. That's why we see Chalandra pop forwards, he isn't really doing what he says he is doing. He is pushing off the ground, instead of pushing into the ground to increase pressure in his foot. Pushing off the ground makes the supporting foot feel light, after all that how you jump off the ground! Pushing with the quads makes you go light, pushing with the kua does not.

As for the 3:00 marker, if he was underneath the other guy he would never pop off the ground. Really unless the pusher suddenly sourced power way below Chalandra, the pusher would always be pushing himself away much like if i leaned against a wall and pushed I would push myself backwards.

The rotation that Chalandra shows at 3:17 directs the push off to the side. I'm not sure if Chalandra knows how to get under someone else from this video or not. The knee up knee down thing is something else entirely. To me it looks like he is using it to brace while turning. The Chens use a completely different movement to turn. I think most people could learn a way to copy the exterior shape of the big name chens fairly easily that would not result in bracing against the push.

You of course would be better off learning the real mechanic for how the chens turn, instead of copying the shape externally, but thats beyond this disucssion.

chillzATL
04-25-2012, 08:43 PM
FWIW, YMMV, yadda yadda,

I first experienced what you're discussing via Toby Threadgill, doing basically the same exercise being discussed. He had someone receive a push to shoulder and ground out to the opposite leg. Once stable and grounded he had the receiver pull towards the pusher ever so slightly with the front foot. EVER.SO.SLIGHTLY! at which point pusher was instructed to PUSH HARDER. In nearly every case (where pusher could stay semi-relaxed and not tense shoulders too much) the pusher would be uprooted by their own push and begin to search for their footing so that they could regain leverage. IMO, there was no shifting of weight to the front foot on the part of the receiver so much as the front leg was being activated and connected to the structure that was created when the push was grounded to the back leg and then splitting it back towards the pusher and into the front leg almost as if it were sending some of that force back to the pusher as the harder they pushed, the more they would uproot themselves. The physical pull with the foot was, IMO, just a teaching device, as there are other ways to bring body parts into play in such an exercise. Again, YMMV.

Eric Joyce
04-25-2012, 11:44 PM
Now with all this talk of being "under", what exactly do people think it means to be "under" the other guy?

You could certainly be "under" from either the front foot or the rear, and could stop the pusher from either point. The front foot provides additonal mobility as you can then bring the rear foot forwards and take a step towards your opponent without "pushing" them backwards. (There is a HUGE temptation to push someone when you feel them go light/weak, but thats bad) Rather as you are under them, they will basically push themselves backwards. One might also see how this may allow them to kick an opponent as well.

If I direct more of the persons push into my front foot, it does seem to pop them more upwards like the vector I drew. Putting it in the rear foot still allows for an upwards vector, but people start to push against the floor along that line and instead of increasing pressure into the rear foot, it decreases. That's why we see Chalandra pop forwards, he isn't really doing what he says he is doing. He is pushing off the ground, instead of pushing into the ground to increase pressure in his foot. Pushing off the ground makes the supporting foot feel light, after all that how you jump off the ground! Pushing with the quads makes you go light, pushing with the kua does not.

As for the 3:00 marker, if he was underneath the other guy he would never pop off the ground. Really unless the pusher suddenly sourced power way below Chalandra, the pusher would always be pushing himself away much like if i leaned against a wall and pushed I would push myself backwards.

The rotation that Chalandra shows at 3:17 directs the push off to the side. I'm not sure if Chalandra knows how to get under someone else from this video or not. The knee up knee down thing is something else entirely. To me it looks like he is using it to brace while turning. The Chens use a completely different movement to turn. I think most people could learn a way to copy the exterior shape of the big name chens fairly easily that would not result in bracing against the push.

You of course would be better off learning the real mechanic for how the chens turn, instead of copying the shape externally, but thats beyond this disucssion.

Hi Hunter,

By under, what I mean based off my limited experience so far, is when I stretch my spine (sinking my pelvic area under the force of his push) while rooting into the ground. I tried this tonight at class where I had someone push me from the side while I was in a horse stance. He gradually and steadily pushed into my shoulder. Once I stretched my spine and rooted firmly into the ground he could not move me. We did the same thing with him facing me but my feet were in a kamae type stance. As he pushed into my chest, I did the stretching of the spine. As I did that, my partner's arm was basically stuck to my chest and his posture started to compromise. As I adjusted, he moved as well. As far as weight distribution, it was evenly distributed. Not too much in the front or back leg.

Like I said, still a newbie at this.