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lars beyer
03-21-2012, 05:35 PM
Hi.. This thread is about Reigi- Correct behaviour.
:cool:
1. What is your idea about correct behaviour in the dojo ?
2. How does it affect training ?
3. How does correct behaviour translate to the world outside of the dojo ?

Please tell me more !

In aiki
Lars

Carsten Möllering
03-22-2012, 02:58 AM
How do you undertand "correct" when used with reigi?
Are you aware that there are many, many different forms or ways of formally correct behavior?
Does that make a difference for you?

philipsmith
03-22-2012, 03:09 AM
I agree there are different forms of reigi according to art, class and gender in Japanese society (indeed in all societies)

However they all have a common goal - mutual respect. As long as you have that the external form is unimportant in my view

lars beyer
03-22-2012, 04:13 AM
How do you undertand "correct" when used with reigi?
Are you aware that there are many, many different forms or ways of formally correct behavior?
Does that make a difference for you?

Thanks for asking, even I am not sure I can answer your question fully, but I´ll try.
The outer form varies like you suggest. The meaning of reigi as well. For me correct reigi means that the outer form is accompanied with an inner meaning, that it works on several levels apart from being an empty ritual.
I bow, but I don´t just bow, I bow to (try) to show respect or because I feel gratitude towards my seniors and my sensei or my juniors. I also bow to learn to appreciate bowing, to practise it. For me coming to Japan, bowing was the one most difficult thing to understand, not in terms of actually doing it, but to make it come naturally and integrating it with my behaviour. I felt like an elephant in a glassworks store.
Why do we bow to our training partner ?
As far as I know we do it as a formal appreciation before and after practise.. For instance, if I happen to be a little rough with one of my fellow students, bowing afterwards with sincerity and a short look in the eyes can "reset" our encounter and we can move on with practise without feeling bad about what happened.

In relation to correct reigi outside the dojo, I feel sometimes that an oppertunity is missed because we sort of "leave the ego when we enter the dojo".. And we "put it on again" when we leave.. just like the shoes standing in a row outside the dojo. This was the sort of thing I was thinking when I
started this thread.
I´m not jumping to conclusions, I´m asking questions and to your question whether it matters to me that there are many different ways to perform correct reigi, I would say yes it matters to me in the sence that I am willing to see what other people have to offer- that´s one of the resons why I read this forum and why I ask questions.

Cheers
Lars

SeiserL
03-22-2012, 04:30 AM
IMHO, treating each other with respect, compassion, and humility always seems to be the "correct" thing to do.

Now, how that is expressed may be different according to the turf/dojo. Check with the locals.

Carsten Möllering
03-22-2012, 04:47 AM
IMHO, treating each other with respect, compassion, and humility ...
Hhmm, is reigi only about the relationsship to someone else?
Doesn't it also affect oneself?

lbb
03-22-2012, 07:51 AM
Dave Lowry wrote a number of essays on the subject of reigi -- you can find one here (http://www.koryu.com/library/dlowry16.html). It addresses the subject of bowing, specifically, but also talks briefly about the history of the Ogasawara ryu, which gives some historical context on the relationship between etiquette and the martial arts.

I like Lowry's essays, although a scholar might quibble that by reading them, I'm taking a "lite" approach to these subjects. He seems to have done his own research, though, and I find his writing to be engaging and thoughtful. Perhaps most importantly, he's very good at placing his subjects within their context, giving them due respect without the unfortunate tendency to idolatrous over-veneration of classical Japanese window-dressing that we sometimes find in martial arts.

lars beyer
03-22-2012, 08:18 AM
Dave Lowry wrote a number of essays on the subject of reigi -- you can find one here (http://www.koryu.com/library/dlowry16.html). It addresses the subject of bowing, specifically, but also talks briefly about the history of the Ogasawara ryu, which gives some historical context on the relationship between etiquette and the martial arts.

I like Lowry's essays, although a scholar might quibble that by reading them, I'm taking a "lite" approach to these subjects. He seems to have done his own research, though, and I find his writing to be engaging and thoughtful. Perhaps most importantly, he's very good at placing his subjects within their context, giving them due respect without the unfortunate tendency to idolatrous over-veneration of classical Japanese window-dressing that we sometimes find in martial arts.

Thanks, interresting reading !

NagaBaba
03-22-2012, 12:19 PM
A Thought on Reigi Saho by Mitsunari Kanai sensei:

http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?p=555

lars beyer
03-22-2012, 12:37 PM
A Thought on Reigi Saho by Mitsunari Kanai sensei:

http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?p=555

Thanks for posting this link :)

lars beyer
03-23-2012, 04:19 AM
A Thought on Reigi Saho by Mitsunari Kanai sensei:

http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?p=555

Hi Szczepan,

Interresting reading, it made sence to me and helped putting light on some of the various connections between various topics I have been thinking about.
Great :)

Regards
Lars

phitruong
03-23-2012, 08:18 AM
don't treat people as things

JJF
03-23-2012, 09:04 AM
don't treat people as things

What said that?

(sorry... friday humor.. I agree very much but couldn't resist the opportunity to make a bad joke.. ;))

kewms
03-23-2012, 10:41 AM
In our modern, inclusive world, it's not surprising that we would say that the attitude of respect and humility matter more than the outward form.

But in a martial context, the outward form matters a lot, too. Putting your hands too close to your sword (or your gun, on the American frontier) at the wrong time could get you killed. Many of the details of sword-handling etiquette are ways to reassure everyone involved that you're not about to slice them up. Awareness of those details (or their absence) is how you decide if the stranger at your door is as harmless as he claims, or a potential assassin.

Awareness and attention to detail are just as important today. People who see reigi as only about attitude are, I think, missing an opportunity to cultivate more tangible martial skills.

Katherine

NagaBaba
03-23-2012, 12:21 PM
Hi Szczepan,

Interresting reading, it made sence to me and helped putting light on some of the various connections between various topics I have been thinking about.
Great :)

Regards
Lars
Hi Lars,
I'm glad you like it. Kanai sensei teaching is for me very important inspiration, and I believe he can be also for aikidoka from other styles. He followed similar path to Nishio sensei and Chiba sensei in his development.

sakumeikan
03-23-2012, 12:43 PM
Hi.. This thread is about Reigi- Correct behaviour.
:cool:
1. What is your idea about correct behaviour in the dojo ?
2. How does it affect training ?
3. How does correct behaviour translate to the world outside of the dojo ?

Please tell me more !

In aiki
Lars

Dear Lars,
Outside the dojo? I see very little to commend Aikido in this area in relation to correct behaviour.What I would term Big Aikido. There can be a vast difference between what is preached in the dojo and what is practiced out side.I am not convinced that Aikido can change anybodys original character entirely.You are who you are .You may change [not always for the better] slightly .A leopard rarely changes its spots.
Power corrupts /absolute power corrupts absolutely. Cheers, Joe.

lars beyer
03-23-2012, 03:07 PM
Hi Lars,
I'm glad you like it. Kanai sensei teaching is for me very important inspiration, and I believe he can be also for aikidoka from other styles. He followed similar path to Nishio sensei and Chiba sensei in his development.

Thanks again, who is Chiba sensei ?
:)
Best
Lars

NagaBaba
03-23-2012, 03:22 PM
Thanks again, who is Chiba sensei ?
:)
Best
Lars

http://www.aikidoexpress.com/?cat=15

Rob Watson
03-23-2012, 03:34 PM
Thanks again, who is Chiba sensei ?
:)
Best
Lars

My head just imploded ...

lars beyer
03-23-2012, 03:44 PM
My head just imploded ...

I´m sorry.. if you continue reading my threads that might become a habit of yours..
:)

Walter Martindale
03-24-2012, 07:44 AM
Reigi is good manners. Politeness.
The usual practice is to use "Japanese politeness" which is different in details from "Western politeness", but it's still good manners.
For example - and this isn't dojo - it's rude in Japan to stick your chopsticks in a bowl of food when you're not using them - To Japanese it signifies death, somehow resembling a pot full of bones or something, but to westerners it means nothing. Kinda like being careful when to say "shi" versus "yon" when saying "four" - again, because "shi" sounds a bit like death or dead... (we say Yondan, not Shidan, for example)

Cheers,
W

Chris Li
03-24-2012, 11:58 AM
http://www.missmanners.com/

In my experience - non-Japanese tend to be a lot more fanatic about it then most of what I encountered in Japan at Japanese dojo. Kind of like Alec Guiness in A Majority of One (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055124/).

Best,

Chris

Lyle Laizure
03-25-2012, 08:31 AM
Goo ni itte wa, goo ni shitagae...follow the rules of the village you are in.....trouble is you don't always know what rules a village has when you enter.

lars beyer
03-25-2012, 08:54 AM
..Louis... I think this is a beginning of a beautifull friendship..!

lars beyer
03-25-2012, 09:26 AM
..Louis... I think this is a beginning of a beautifull friendship..!
(psst.. "Casablance", last line by Bogart)
:)

Chris Li
03-25-2012, 11:47 AM
Goo ni itte wa, goo ni shitagae...follow the rules of the village you are in.....trouble is you don't always know what rules a village has when you enter.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do - St. Ambrose, 4th century.

Just common sense isn't it? It's the same for Japanese - Tokyo folks mess up Kyoto manners and vice versa.

Might as well go back to Emily Post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Post). :)

Best,

Chris

Robert Cowham
03-25-2012, 04:09 PM
I discovered "Max Danger" and a sequel while on a 6 week stay in Tokyo - fondly revisited from time to time.

"Mr Etiquette" has its moments.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gZPkGfegQHUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false

lars beyer
03-26-2012, 12:41 AM
I discovered "Max Danger" and a sequel while on a 6 week stay in Tokyo - fondly revisited from time to time.

"Mr Etiquette" has its moments.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gZPkGfegQHUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hi Robert
Thanks, I¨ll give it a shot, looks like funny and informative reading :)
Cheers
Lars

amoeba
03-26-2012, 01:52 PM
I always thought we weren't very formal at our dojo, until my teacher told me that one of our students had trained somewhere else and told him that those people weren't as strict as we were...:D

Seriously, we do have some formal stuff, like not coming in during class, waiting to be acknowledged by the teacher if we're late... but we also have a lot of fun on the mat and talking is definitely allowed as long as it doesn't get to distracting. And we all seem to be very nice people, so we've never seemed to have any problems with respect - it comes naturally. Not the fearsome type, the friendly one. I'm glad I call my teachers by their first name and can invite them to my partys, get drunk with them and joke around a lot, while at the same time taking them seriously on the mat and accepting their superiour skills.