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lars beyer
03-12-2012, 09:44 AM
Hi ladies and gentlemen.

I practise Aikido with a big emphasis on Aikiken and Aikijo.
Personally I love it and it makes a lot of sence to me in relation to Aikido.
What are your experiences with Aikido and Weapons ?
Do you like it ? Does it enhance your training or do you feel it is not relevant to Aikido ?

Peace
Lars

PS
Maybe there is allready an old thread on the subject.. so please excuse me..
I just think it is an interresting subject.

ryback
03-12-2012, 05:21 PM
Well,the way i see it one should not choose weapons or no weapons,this or that.The roots of aikido techniques go back to the days of the samurai,when the weapons were used in every combat situation.So aikiken,aikijo are along with the unarmed techniques and every possible combination,a part of aikido.The weapons teach us,among other things,posture,distance and the basic principles behind the techniques.So there is no dilema.I think that one cannot learn aikido trully without weapons practice!

Travis Johnson
03-12-2012, 07:09 PM
I totally agree with the above! weapons practice has been an essential part of my aikido study, probably almost 50% of it. I also find that working with weapons is very useful when training alone!

phitruong
03-13-2012, 08:44 AM
love it. hate it. ok with it. on occasion, sleep with it in order to defend myself against vicious invaders, who sneaked into my bedroom, and screamed this horrible noise on Saturday morning, "Dad, we are hungry. Make us some breakfast!" :)

OwlMatt
03-13-2012, 02:24 PM
I hear a lot about how weapons training is important for learning the fundamentals of aikido, but I've yet to train with an instructor who satisfactorily explains why or how.

JJF
03-13-2012, 03:05 PM
Matthew: Come to Denmark during easter.. Six days seminar with Arisou Sensei and about 140 aikido ka from several contries :) I'll introduce you to some chaps that might be able to show you our take on the connection.

lars beyer
03-13-2012, 04:09 PM
I hear a lot about how weapons training is important for learning the fundamentals of aikido, but I've yet to train with an instructor who satisfactorily explains why or how.

Hi Mathew,

You have some very prominent Aikido senseis and shihans in your home country who knows traditional aikido weapons extremely well. Like Pat Hendricks, Bill Witt, Hans Goto, David Alexander, Stephanie Yap, Miles Kessler, Mark Larson,Vincent Salvatore and many more. If they canīt explain that to you.. well.. I guess nobody can. :)

Peace
Lars

Janet Rosen
03-13-2012, 05:16 PM
I hear a lot about how weapons training is important for learning the fundamentals of aikido, but I've yet to train with an instructor who satisfactorily explains why or how.

From the website:
"The Milwaukee Aikido Club, Inc., is a member of the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba and is associated with Mitsugi Saotome, Shihan (http://www.asu.org/Saotome.html), and Hiroshi Ikeda, Shihan (http://www.asu.org/Ikeda.html)."

Um....I am not a member of an ASU dojo but from what I know of them I believe the link between weapons and empty hand should be available if not at your dojo than certainly at many weapons seminars offered within the ASU.

Gerardo Torres
03-13-2012, 05:58 PM
I hear a lot about how weapons training is important for learning the fundamentals of aikido, but I've yet to train with an instructor who satisfactorily explains why or how.
I've trained with teachers who successfully teach aiki-weapons in relation to empty-hand technique: a) from a technical perspective, as in this empty-hand technique or this footwork can be mirrored with the bokken, etc., and/or b) by explaining issues of timing, centerline, tegatana, mental "connection", etc.

The perception of the usefulness of aiki-weapons as practiced today will depend on your definition of "fundamentals of aikido". The way I see it and circular logic notwithstanding, I still don't understand what makes any of the prominent aiki-weapons work out there "aiki". That said, I don't do aiki-weapons as I think a lot of that training is counter-productive to my work on aikido fundamentals as I understand them.

And don't get me wrong, I like and do (cross-train) weapons. Weirdly enough, the "outside" weapons work I've done have helped my aikido far more than any aiki-weapons I've been exposed to. I've also seen this phenomenon on friends who cross-train in classical Japanese and FMA weapon systems.

lars beyer
03-13-2012, 06:00 PM
I hear a lot about how weapons training is important for learning the fundamentals of aikido, but I've yet to train with an instructor who satisfactorily explains why or how.

Hi matthew
There are many different takes on Aikido weapons since many postwar senseis outside as well as inside Japan invented their own Aikido weapons based on their individual sword practices.
If you are looking for a clear and methodical step by step Aikdo weapons practise look for students of the late Morihiro Saito Shihan.
He studied weapons with Oīsensei for 24 years on a daily basis.

Regards
Lars

sakumeikan
03-13-2012, 06:27 PM
I hear a lot about how weapons training is important for learning the fundamentals of aikido, but I've yet to train with an instructor who satisfactorily explains why or how.

Dear Matthew,
I suggest you try and review a copy of Sansho wherein Shibata Sensei indicates the reasons for doing weapon training.Unfortunately I do not know which issue of Sansho where the article is printed. Try looking for back nos of Sansho on line. Cheers, Joe.

phitruong
03-13-2012, 06:56 PM
I hear a lot about how weapons training is important for learning the fundamentals of aikido, but I've yet to train with an instructor who satisfactorily explains why or how.

no teacher can explain to your satisfactory. for me, no teacher could explain it to me, only i can do that through my own practice and searching for answers. be your own teacher and you don't need explanation.

Janet Rosen
03-13-2012, 07:06 PM
Like Gerardo, I'm a fan of koryu weapons, though by geography I'm out of that option for the foreseeable future.

Within aikido, being an aikimutt, I've done a few years of Chiba Sensei's weapons, a few years of Tohei Sensei's kata and more recently more of Saito Sensei's weapons, with a teeny bit (as in a day at a time for a total of maybe three times) of Kato Sensei's weapons.

While each has its own very distinct flavor, I find they have in common several things in terms of how they enhance empty hand technique (and here I am talking specifically about partnered practice, not solo kata) :
- increased focus because of a greater sense of potential danger ("I'm gonna hit you with a stick!")
- learning to look at the whole person, not just the weapon helps with noting small movements, weighting, etc as well as zanshin
- if you are taught, as I was, to remain outwardly impassive during weapons, you find this carries over when you want or need it to in empty hand (although I've been known to spend a lot of time smiling on the mat, training joyously :-) )
- issues like centerline, entering, claiming centerline, where your center is aimed, etc become much more obvious when the weapon is several feet longer
- so does timing, especially as in weapons we often start by taking turns doing each strike/block and then, without speeding up per se, do them in a flowing manner
- if you can enter and deal with shomen from a jo or bokken, it is a lot easier to do irimi on a shomenuchi
- for movement challenged people like me, memorizing 20 to 30 part long weapons kata makes any empty hand technique seem pretty simple in terms of "getting" the gross movements :-)

lars beyer
03-13-2012, 07:09 PM
no teacher can explain to your satisfactory. for me, no teacher could explain it to me, only i can do that through my own practice and searching for answers. be your own teacher and you don't need explanation.

Hi Phi
I disagree. A good teacher can give you exactly what you need to move on. Thats the whole point of a teacher student relationship.

Peace
Lars

phitruong
03-13-2012, 07:21 PM
Hi Phi
I disagree. A good teacher can give you exactly what you need to move on. Thats the whole point of a teacher student relationship.

Peace
Lars

perhaps that's for you. for me, as i see it, until your practice reached a certain level, no explanation is satisfactory. and when your practice reached a certain level, no explanation is necessary. analogy of mathematics, if a person has problem doing multiplication, then no amount of explanation on algebra will make sense.

Gerardo Torres
03-13-2012, 07:33 PM
Hi Phi
I disagree. A good teacher can give you exactly what you need to move on. Thats the whole point of a teacher student relationship.

Peace
Lars
I see Phi's suggestion that one should "be their own teacher" as a good one, since to me it implies that one should not rely too much on any given teacher and be responsible for one's learning. In other words "own the material" rather than simply emulate or follow someone. A teacher can guide and provide good information, but the bulk of the responsibility for learning has to be held by the student IMO.

In that vein, when it came to aiki-weapons, I reached a point where I stopped and asked what my understanding of aikido and my goals were. The second step was to disregard anything that separated me from those goals, and to look for training (weapons and otherwise) that could help me achieve those goals. I had to make those decisions myself. People are often too quick to drop Sensei names and say do this or that. I would ask, why, how, for what purpose? and if possible try them out and do an objective comparison against certain goals.

DH
03-13-2012, 08:57 PM
I've never seen Aiki in Aikido weapon work, so I don't know what to call it other than aikido weapons.

Since it seems to match aikido movement of ___________________flavor of any group, there's really nothing to discuss ...its just a bunch of people having fun....until the mid dan and kyu ranked people start to once again " imagine" they're doing real weapons, or that what they're doing is aiki.
Dan

lars beyer
03-14-2012, 06:11 AM
I see Phi's suggestion that one should "be their own teacher" as a good one, since to me it implies that one should not rely too much on any given teacher and be responsible for one's learning. In other words "own the material" rather than simply emulate or follow someone. A teacher can guide and provide good information, but the bulk of the responsibility for learning has to be held by the student IMO.

In that vein, when it came to aiki-weapons, I reached a point where I stopped and asked what my understanding of aikido and my goals were. The second step was to disregard anything that separated me from those goals, and to look for training (weapons and otherwise) that could help me achieve those goals. I had to make those decisions myself. People are often too quick to drop Sensei names and say do this or that. I would ask, why, how, for what purpose? his and if possible try them out and do an objective comparison against certain goals.

Hi Gerrardo,
First of all, I believe the reason must be to learn Aikido.
It goes without saying that the student have the responsability to show up in the dojo, but from there itīs the responsability of the dojo cho, the boss, to provide the prober invironment for learning- maybe even without the student realising this in the beginning.
A good teacher/ sensei will guide you and a bad one will misguide you.
By good teacher/ sensei I mean a person who is high ranking inside the traditional system, but still progressing, still evolving, still an open human being, still open for personal improvement. A person who is not lazy and absorbed in his personal achievements.

Aikido is also about letting your self go and just practise and for me personally there is no better way to do that than to put my trust 100% in my teacher and my teachers teacher and my teachers teachers teacher.
My goal is not to invent my own aikido, or to "own the material" like you say, but to train myself in this wonderfull Martial Art.
I think the idea of re- inventing Aikido and make it my personal "thing" is absolutely irrelevant for the teaching and the learning.

I had a teacher/ sensei once who said that itīs up to the student to internalise the aikido by himself, make it his own personal expression. This is a false goal I feel, even it can be obtained as a product of training but this is also irrelevant for the teaching process. Itīs a by-product.
The quality of Aikido relies 100% on the teachers and what they teach.
I believe itīs our seniors job and everybodys job to try to set the bar a little higher.
I have experience in teaching and I feel the above is true for all teaching.
I also know from personal experience that if the things you teach are not based on a solid tradition
they become superficial because learning stops when the teacher looses his foothold, that is the
tradition.

I will allways say to beginners in Aikido that they should look for the lineages that have a close and longlasting direct personal connection with Oīsensei and there is plenty of historical material available to investigate who your sensei is, and what is his lineage.
I like this quote from Oīsensei: "Dress Aikido in fresh garments but build on the old styles."
I understand the "old styles" as being the traditional styles.

I have often come to a point in my training asking myself if the things I practise collides with my personal beliefs.. But my personal beliefs are just that: Personal beliefs... and as such they can be challenged and should be over and over again.

I feel this thread is wandering off topic and I am partly to blame for this and I apologise.

Peace
Lars

phitruong
03-14-2012, 06:42 AM
I've never seen Aiki in Aikido weapon work, so I don't know what to call it other than aikido weapons.


you are depressing me! don't you have somewhere to go and people to throw and fish to kill?

phitruong
03-14-2012, 06:50 AM
Aikido is also about letting your self go and just practise and for me personally there is no better way to do that than to put my trust 100% in my teacher and my teachers teacher and my teachers teachers teacher.
My goal is not to invent my own aikido, or to "own the material" like you say, but to train myself in this wonderfull Martial Art.
I think the idea of re- inventing Aikido and make it my personal "thing" is absolutely irrelevant for the teaching and the learning.
Lars

if that is your goals, then that's fine. but for me, my goal is to be better than my teacher, and his and his. if i can't exceed my teacher and his and his, then i have not learned anything, but maintain status quo and eventually diminishing the arts. what i said isn't about ego, but of in search for excellence, and never satisfy. that's my budo, my way.

Pauliina Lievonen
03-14-2012, 07:09 AM
Lars and Phi, may I suggest that the difference in opinion you two have might have to do with how long you both have practised?

I used to think like Lars and be very content with just learning what my teacher and my teachers teacher were teaching me.

But nowadays I'm much more self-directed in my practice, my teacher (and my dojomates, and other people when I go to seminars) of course give valuable feedback, but the problems I work on are questions I come up with by myself.

I've had the same change happen in the other things I'm studying in my life, so I think to some extent it's just a natural progression in learning.

Pauliina

lars beyer
03-14-2012, 07:44 AM
Lars and Phi, may I suggest that the difference in opinion you two have might have to do with how long you both have practised?

I used to think like Lars and be very content with just learning what my teacher and my teachers teacher were teaching me.

But nowadays I'm much more self-directed in my practice, my teacher (and my dojomates, and other people when I go to seminars) of course give valuable feedback, but the problems I work on are questions I come up with by myself.

I've had the same change happen in the other things I'm studying in my life, so I think to some extent it's just a natural progression in learning.

Pauliina

Hi Paulina and Phi

I agree that with time we change our focus in training, but since we are also gradually becoming more and more responsible in relation to new students, becoming rolemodels so to speak, we have to maintain a knowlegde of the beginners mind in order to progress and to understand our junior training partners.

Itīs said many times before that a beginners frame of mind is the best for learning, and nomatter how stereotype this may sound, itīs the truth.
So instead of relying on our own abilities, our own "unique" ;) ideas, we are better off trusting our seniors and those who came before them as a foundation or general framework for our practise.
Without this framework no progression is really possible.
Offcourse we can wander off and try out different ideas, but they shouldnīt become be the basis of what we teach the beginners.

I believe in our western hemissphere we tend to rely too much on our individual personalities and personal gain when we practise.
I prefer the Japanese approach where students are not allowed to ask too many questions.. For a westener this is a huge challenge, Iīve been there, and I have to admit it changed my concepts of learning and teaching considerably, so no, I donīt think it is merely a progression of learning because even the most
advanced students fall from grace when they place too much trust in their personal achievements and as a consequence become slacking.

Peace
Lars

lars beyer
03-14-2012, 04:45 PM
Like Gerardo, I'm a fan of koryu weapons, though by geography I'm out of that option for the foreseeable future.

Within aikido, being an aikimutt, I've done a few years of Chiba Sensei's weapons, a few years of Tohei Sensei's kata and more recently more of Saito Sensei's weapons, with a teeny bit (as in a day at a time for a total of maybe three times) of Kato Sensei's weapons.

While each has its own very distinct flavor, I find they have in common several things in terms of how they enhance empty hand technique (and here I am talking specifically about partnered practice, not solo kata) :
- increased focus because of a greater sense of potential danger ("I'm gonna hit you with a stick!")
- learning to look at the whole person, not just the weapon helps with noting small movements, weighting, etc as well as zanshin
- if you are taught, as I was, to remain outwardly impassive during weapons, you find this carries over when you want or need it to in empty hand (although I've been known to spend a lot of time smiling on the mat, training joyously :-) )
- issues like centerline, entering, claiming centerline, where your center is aimed, etc become much more obvious when the weapon is several feet longer
- so does timing, especially as in weapons we often start by taking turns doing each strike/block and then, without speeding up per se, do them in a flowing manner
- if you can enter and deal with shomen from a jo or bokken, it is a lot easier to do irimi on a shomenuchi
- for movement challenged people like me, memorizing 20 to 30 part long weapons kata makes any empty hand technique seem pretty simple in terms of "getting" the gross movements :-)

Hi Janet
I have experienced much of what you describe here as well :)
Peace
Lars

sakumeikan
03-14-2012, 06:49 PM
I've never seen Aiki in Aikido weapon work, so I don't know what to call it other than aikido weapons.

Since it seems to match aikido movement of ___________________flavor of any group, there's really nothing to discuss ...its just a bunch of people having fun....until the mid dan and kyu ranked people start to once again " imagine" they're doing real weapons, or that what they're doing is aiki.
Dan
Dear Dan ,
If you have never seen or been exposed to Aikido weapons how may I ask can you know whether or not people doing weapons work are imagining they are using real weapons/ having fun or not?Neither can you state categorically they are not doing aiki. I would not presume to suggest your work is of no value or you are just having fun[your term ,not mine ] without seeing /feeling what you do.If you must be judgemental at least do some research on the subject matter. Cheers, Joe.

lbb
03-15-2012, 08:16 AM
Dear Dan ,
If you have never seen or been exposed to Aikido weapons

That's not what he said. Reread what you quoted.

sakumeikan
03-15-2012, 09:18 AM
That's not what he said. Reread what you quoted.

Dear mary,
Thanks for the blog.As you say Dan does not say that.I did misread Dans comment. Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
03-15-2012, 09:29 AM
I've never seen Aiki in Aikido weapon work, so I don't know what to call it other than aikido weapons.

Since it seems to match aikido movement of ___________________flavor of any group, there's really nothing to discuss ...its just a bunch of people having fun....until the mid dan and kyu ranked people start to once again " imagine" they're doing real weapons, or that what they're doing is aiki.
Dan
Dear Dan ,
If it is not too much trouble may I ask you who have you seen doing Aiki ken /Aiki Jo/Tanto work?As it happens I do not think that serious aikidoka perceive Aikido [body art /weapons/ Batto ho/ Za Zen as fun. Neither do they imagine they are twirling 'real ' weapons as such.In Batto Ho as it happens the use of a live blade is permitted. Naturally if one uses a katana one cannot adopt a flippant approach to using a live blade.Not only would you injure yourself , you may well injure someone else if you did not have a serious attitude /safety in mind.Cheers, Joe.

JJF
03-16-2012, 04:52 AM
Hi Paulina and Phi
I believe in our western hemissphere we tend to rely too much on our individual personalities and personal gain when we practise.
I prefer the Japanese approach where students are not allowed to ask too many questions.. For a westener this is a huge challenge, Iīve been there, and I have to admit it changed my concepts of learning and teaching considerably, so no, I donīt think it is merely a progression of learning because even the most
advanced students fall from grace when they place too much trust in their personal achievements and as a consequence become slacking.


Funny.. I am very far from agreeing with you.

Of course there is a risk that students can become sloppy, but I would think the same could happen for those who are being taught a specific way to do things in a very rigid system since they come to rely on the system rather than on their own common sense and feelings.

I think it's kind of like learning a language. You can have a CD or book with set frases that you practice over and over until you know them all by heart. Copying them to down to even the tiniest detail like intonation, pauses etc. You are just not speaking the language untill you begin to break the patterns and use the words in new constellations in order to mediate exactly the nuances that you want to express.

I've been to Japan a few times as well, and I belive I've met a few senseis (and shihans) who expect and prefer for their students to develop their own aikido by being critical - in the most polite and constructive manner of course - so as to add to the continous development of the art. So.. please don't cut all japanese teachning along the same ruler.

There is of course a time to ask questions and a time to shut up and practice. But in my book that is not the same as disbanding all creative and challenging thought all together.

It's all about finding the right balance I guess ;)

Great weekend to all

JJ

A2B
03-16-2012, 05:38 AM
Some of you seem to wonder fundamentally about using weapons in Aikido ...

There are considerable differences in practice among the different Aikido schools and especially with Aikido weapons. Don't want to judge about them nor enter into details or possible reasons, although it might be interesting to understand.

Aiki or not Aiki .... that was a question. What about Ki no musubi ? Connect your Ki with the Ki of you partner. You can do that with Aiki weapons, no doubt.

US Aikidoka, who would like to convince themselves about this, get an occasion to watch an Aikidoka practising Jo and Bokken with Aiki this summer in Orange County, California (June 28th through July 1st 2012). André Cognard Shihan is an expert for Aikiken and Aikijo of the school of Hirokazu Kobayashi Shihan from Osaka. More about this seminar on http://www.usa-seminar-kakkhh.com/. The seminar is open to everyone, all affiliations, levels, and juniors are welcome.

A warning for lower grades in Aikido: never expect energy in a pure Kihon, don't confuse it with an application form. The latter you may try only if you have mastered the Kihon.

:ai: :ki: regards, Christine

lars beyer
03-16-2012, 09:18 AM
Funny.. I am very far from agreeing with you.

Of course there is a risk that students can become sloppy, but I would think the same could happen for those who are being taught a specific way to do things in a very rigid system since they come to rely on the system rather than on their own common sense and feelings.

I think it's kind of like learning a language. You can have a CD or book with set frases that you practice over and over until you know them all by heart. Copying them to down to even the tiniest detail like intonation, pauses etc. You are just not speaking the language untill you begin to break the patterns and use the words in new constellations in order to mediate exactly the nuances that you want to express.

I've been to Japan a few times as well, and I belive I've met a few senseis (and shihans) who expect and prefer for their students to develop their own aikido by being critical - in the most polite and constructive manner of course - so as to add to the continous development of the art. So.. please don't cut all japanese teachning along the same ruler.

There is of course a time to ask questions and a time to shut up and practice. But in my book that is not the same as disbanding all creative and challenging thought all together.

It's all about finding the right balance I guess ;)

Great weekend to all

JJ

Itīs true what you say, I shouldnīt be cutting all japanese along the same ruler, but in order to make my statement clear I did.. this is the price of rhetorics sometimes..

I donīt believe creativity lies in learning aikido, but in the way I implement it in my life outside the dojo.
Maybe itīs because I am a creative person with many different activites, so for me Aikido is more about structure, form, technique, adapting and learning than expressing my creativity in the dojo.
Well, when I teach Aikido I express my creativity because I have to adapt to the circumstances
instantaneously, this is why teaching is good for your aikido I feel.

For me creativity relies on 95% hard work and 5% actually inventing something myself- that is if I can actually invent something that is truly my own.. How many people can actually claim that what they think and what they do and say is not based on someone elses ideas ?
The thing that makes my creativity unique is the way I do it, but that wont help me learn anything.
We only learn from trial and error, success in terms of being creative is a dead end, it wont teach you anything, only make you rely on what you allready know.

Regards
Lars

Gerardo Torres
03-16-2012, 12:13 PM
Connect your Ki with the Ki of you partner. You can do that with Aiki weapons, no doubt.
I have to ask, what possible benefit is there training to "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" in weapons? Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but the way I see it, an attacker with a sword would never want to "harmonize" their ki with me or create/maintain that sort of connection -- they simply want to defeat me -- so what are the benefits of both partners training to harmonize their ki? I think a better training paradigm is to have one partner deliver a realistic attack and have the other partner deal with it using his/her ki (and aiki) to control or defeat the attack.

Chris Li
03-16-2012, 02:03 PM
I have to ask, what possible benefit is there training to "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" in weapons? Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but the way I see it, an attacker with a sword would never want to "harmonize" their ki with me or create/maintain that sort of connection -- they simply want to defeat me -- so what are the benefits of both partners training to harmonize their ki? I think a better training paradigm is to have one partner deliver a realistic attack and have the other partner deal with it using his/her ki (and aiki) to control or defeat the attack.

I wasn't going to say anything, but "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" is, in weapons and in all Aikido practice, one of the most fundamental errors that people have in conventional Aikido, IMO.

Best,

Chris

sakumeikan
03-16-2012, 06:07 PM
I have to ask, what possible benefit is there training to "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" in weapons? Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but the way I see it, an attacker with a sword would never want to "harmonize" their ki with me or create/maintain that sort of connection -- they simply want to defeat me -- so what are the benefits of both partners training to harmonize their ki? I think a better training paradigm is to have one partner deliver a realistic attack and have the other partner deal with it using his/her ki (and aiki) to control or defeat the attack.

Dear Gerardo,
Blending with your partner is not just a question of him attacking you then you counter with an attack . The object of blending is to be able to adjust /.neutralise the effect of any attack whether you are acting as uke or as tori.In the practice of Sansho 1/2/[Jo work , a set of paired exercises] [ for example ]the relationship between both parties change as the movements are practiced..There is a point where an attack by uke is neutralized by tori resulting in a counter attack by tori, which in turn is neutralized by uke etc.Each person has to absorb the energy from the attack of the other , and then in the role of the attacker each of the persons involved has to extend ones energy.Thus there is a flow not unlike a wave motion in a sense.A sense of attack -defend -attack as it were from both parties each responding to the actions of the other.
Both parties have the opportunity to move/train their centres, stimulate their bodies ie conditioning , maintain connection and improve their awareness.I also include weapons training places a lot of emphasis on maai.I see weapons training as a method of training ones body, mind and spirit.Its a challenge for myself.As I am quite elderly I have to maintain as far as possible a degree of flexibility.At present I am somewhat limited here due to the effects of a serious car crash.My goal at the moment is to try and recover from the accident.I find weapons training a very useful tool.
I do not use weapons training to dominate or try to be a macho man.If indeed there is an enemy to be defeated the enemy is myself.Before I can hope to control others I hope I can control myself.This is the bigger battle. Cheers, Joe

Robert Cowham
03-16-2012, 06:16 PM
I wasn't going to say anything, but "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" is, in weapons and in all Aikido practice, one of the most fundamental errors that people have in conventional Aikido, IMO.

In my understanding it is more about "connect" than "harmonize". When I have worked with seniors at the Shiseikan, and in particular Inaba sensei, at any stage I feel he is "in control" of our encounter or at the very least connected with me and knows viscerally what is happening in my body/mind - indeed I sometimes have the impression he has a force field that encompasses everyone on the mat!

Certainly things to aspire to, and maybe I am starting to get an inkling of what it is about - my timing has certainly improved recently...

Chris Li
03-16-2012, 06:26 PM
In my understanding it is more about "connect" than "harmonize". When I have worked with seniors at the Shiseikan, and in particular Inaba sensei, at any stage I feel he is "in control" of our encounter or at the very least connected with me and knows viscerally what is happening in my body/mind - indeed I sometimes have the impression he has a force field that encompasses everyone on the mat!

Certainly things to aspire to, and maybe I am starting to get an inkling of what it is about - my timing has certainly improved recently...

At the risk of opening a giant can of worms - I would say that (IMO) it's neither connecting nor harmonizing, nor much else involving what the other person is doing - including timing.

As I said, a can of worms....

Here's a relevant quote from Koichi Tohei, from "Ki no Kakuritsu" ("The Establishment of Ki").

二代道主は、合氣道を「人の気に合わせるの道」と解釈していた。しかし私にしてみれば、合氣道とは「心身を統一して天地と一体になる。すなわち天地の気に合わす道」なので ある。

The second Doshu interpreted Aikido as "the Way of fitting in with another person's Ki". However, it seems to me that Aikido is "Uniting body and mind and becoming one with heaven and earth. Specifically, the Way of fitting together the Ki of heaven and earth.".

Tohei's thinking is getting close to what I'm talking about.

In the section containing the quote above he was discussing his departure from the Aikikai, and his fundamental differences with Kisshomaru about what Aikido involves.

Best,

Chris

Abasan
03-16-2012, 08:44 PM
Most Japanese martial arts evolved from a weapons based arts into taijutsu. As opposed to chinese martial arts which have arts that were completely built from the ground zero as weapon less arts.

Aikido is no different, so it makes a lot of sense to understand your roots.

Having said that, you don't need to be the greatest swords smith on earth to be a good swordsman. So...

lars beyer
03-17-2012, 02:18 AM
At the risk of opening a giant can of worms - I would say that (IMO) it's neither connecting nor harmonizing, nor much else involving what the other person is doing - including timing.

As I said, a can of worms....

Here's a relevant quote from Koichi Tohei, from "Ki no Kakuritsu" ("The Establishment of Ki").

Tohei's thinking is getting close to what I'm talking about.

In the section containing the quote above he was discussing his departure from the Aikikai, and his fundamental differences with Kisshomaru about what Aikido involves.

Best,

Chris
Hi Christopher, welcome to my thread
I love worms, so please show them to me, maybe itīs a specimen I donīt know.. And maybe explain to me what this has go to do with the title of this thread, who is allready drifting off in a different direction than intended and now definetely is ready for the big padlock :)
Peace- (it means behave correctly in my homecountry)
Lars

lars beyer
03-17-2012, 02:46 AM
Most Japanese martial arts evolved from a weapons based arts into taijutsu. As opposed to chinese martial arts which have arts that were completely built from the ground zero as weapon less arts.

Aikido is no different, so it makes a lot of sense to understand your roots.

Having said that, you don't need to be the greatest swords smith on earth to be a good swordsman. So...

Hi Ahmad, thanks for your comment :)
I would say it like this: You donīt need to be the best swordsman on earth to be a good Aikidoka but it helps to understand the roots of Aikido- so if this is what you mean Ahmad I agre totally with you.

In "my" system of aikido the sword or aikiken is not meant to be a "cutting device" but a fairly heavy woodenstick with which to practise riai, the harmony of form, that is the connection between weapons practise and taijutsu. We also use it for other Aikido related partner excersizes as well as the Aikijo but I wont get into this here.
This is unique to Aikido I believe and as such there is no other Martial art where this is a formal goal
of weapons training- at least I have not yet seen it, but offcourse there are many things I have yet to see so please everybody enlighten me if you can.

I feel like studying more traditional japanese swordwork now, not because I think Aikiken and Aikijo
is not enough, on the contrary I feel I just started that.. but I feel like diving into other areas of japanese sword culture to better understand the significance of aikido weapons and weapons as a cultural phenomenom.

Peace
Lars

Chris Li
03-17-2012, 02:55 AM
Hi Christopher, welcome to my thread
I love worms, so please show them to me, maybe itīs a specimen I donīt know.. And maybe explain to me what this has go to do with the title of this thread, who is allready drifting off in a different direction than intended and now definetely is ready for the big padlock :)
Peace- (it means behave correctly in my homecountry)
Lars

Well, threads don't belong to anybody in particular, and thread drift is the norm rather than the exception. :confused:

Anyway, it was in response to a comment made in a post by Christine Schmidt (via Gerardo Torres), and the post that I was commenting on was directly related to the utility of weapons practice vis-a-vis Aiki.

Best,

Chris

lars beyer
03-17-2012, 03:31 AM
Well, threads don't belong to anybody in particular, and thread drift is the norm rather than the exception. :confused:

Anyway, it was in response to a comment made in a post by Christine Schmidt (via Gerardo Torres), and the post that I was commenting on was directly related to the utility of weapons practice vis-a-vis Aiki.

Best,

Chris

Hi chriss, thanks for your reply, I really appreciate that people want to discuss this topic I have raised,
at least it makes me happy to feel that people spent a little time reading my question because I guess I am only human in this sence.
I donīt want to shut you up or anything, and I think if you have some good things to share concerning Tohei sensei and his weapons practise and teaching I would love to hear it as well as a lot of other
Aikidoka I believe.

Itīs true that noone owes this thread (even I think Aikiweb does to some degree- but not the intellectual copyright I guess, but that is another discussion alltogether and quite interresting.)

You can also pm me and tell me about your can of worms, because it sounds interresting, but maybe you should start your own thread so as to avoid the worms crawling allover the place ( this I meant as a joke, Iīm merely kiding :)

Peace
Lars

Robert Cowham
03-17-2012, 09:49 AM
Hi Chris

I am also interested in exploring any worms you care to bring out into the open :)

Could be educational.

Robert

Chris Li
03-17-2012, 10:51 AM
Hi Chris

I am also interested in exploring any worms you care to bring out into the open :)

Could be educational.

Robert

Well - I already laid it out, in essence, in the Tohei quote. The basic difference in the conception of Aiki as something that occurs between two people (as Tohei said that Kisshomaru believed), or as something that occurs wholly within yourself.

The difference is, IMO, very profound, and at the root of many of the problems in conventional Aikido today - but maybe it deserves a separate thread...

Best,

Chris

lars beyer
03-17-2012, 01:30 PM
Well - I already laid it out, in essence, in the Tohei quote. The basic difference in the conception of Aiki as something that occurs between two people (as Tohei said that Kisshomaru believed), or as something that occurs wholly within yourself.

The difference is, IMO, very profound, and at the root of many of the problems in conventional Aikido today - but maybe it deserves a separate thread...

Best,

Chris

I look forward to read your thread :)

Best,
Lars

Chris Li
03-17-2012, 02:58 PM
I look forward to read your thread :)

Best,
Lars

No thread (not that I don't start threads - after a quick search I see that I've already started 41 threads), but I may get to it eventually in my blog (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/).

Best,

Chris

Dale Horton
03-19-2012, 10:16 AM
...At least do some research on the subject matter....

Oh dear....too funny.

sakumeikan
03-19-2012, 10:45 AM
Oh dear....too funny.

Dear Dale,
Glad you find my comment funny.Makes a change from harbingers of doom , dont you think?Joe.

davider90
03-19-2012, 11:00 AM
"Aikido is a martial art. No matter how good one is in judo, if he or she takes a kendo sword and looses against a student, he or she is not a Budoka, but a Judoka. Even as number one in Japan in kendo, if he or she puts on a judogi and is thrown by a student, he or she is a Kendoka and not a Budoka. O'Sensei (The Founder) said, "This is not good."
Everything is a whole, an entirety. That is why in aikido, even if the principle of the sword is formative, all the movements in the body techniques, as well as in the weapons techniques, are entirely similar. That is why weapon techniques are indispensable in aikido. They are a part of it. Some people say aikido is a collection of techniques, but that is not true. How shall I put it? Each of them is contained in the whole. No matter which of the three you take out, bokken, jo, or taijutsu, alone it is not complete aikido. That is why weapons are an especially important part of aikido."
-Morihiro Saito Sensei

Dale Horton
03-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Dear Dale,
Glad you find my comment funny.Makes a change from harbingers of doom , dont you think?Joe.

It was the presumptuous nature of the comment that made me chuckle. I do believe Dan may know a thing or two...

sakumeikan
03-19-2012, 04:19 PM
It was the presumptuous nature of the comment that made me chuckle. I do believe Dan may know a thing or two...

Dear Dale,
Mr Harden may well know a thing or two , but do we know if what he knows includes Aikido weaponry?You may presume he knows a great deal in this area., I may not share your viewpoint.May I also confirm that your above comment makes me chuckle?Perhaps we should get our act together ? We might be the new Martin and Lewis/Bob Hope & Bing Crosby.Maybe even the Muppets.
Cheers, Joe

Aikibu
03-19-2012, 04:45 PM
in my experience All of our Aikido Practice is "weapons" practice. It does not matter if you have a weapon or not. Your Bokken, Jo, or Katana is just an extension of your arm... They are not separate... They are completely integrated into every Aikido Technique. What I can also say based on my experience is that you can tell right away who practices this way and who does not and those who do... usually have a better understanding of "how" Aikido works.

William Hazen

TheAikidoka
03-20-2012, 10:01 AM
Hi Phi
I disagree. A good teacher can give you exactly what you need to move on. Thats the whole point of a teacher student relationship.

Peace
Lars

Hi everyone,
sorry couldn't resist a post here.

The teacher can only point and give advice and show you. The student must must must absolutely must, find out for him or self what it means.
A good teacher imparts the art, in such a way that self discovery is guided too, and not something that is told to you. if it is told to you then you don't "know", it is second hand knowledge, and is not truly known in your heart. FWIW

In Budo,

Andy B

Benjamin Green
03-20-2012, 11:42 PM
in my experience All of our Aikido Practice is "weapons" practice. It does not matter if you have a weapon or not. Your Bokken, Jo, or Katana is just an extension of your arm... They are not separate... They are completely integrated into every Aikido Technique. What I can also say based on my experience is that you can tell right away who practices this way and who does not and those who do... usually have a better understanding of "how" Aikido works.

William Hazen

In my experience, such dichotomies may be a little misleading.

Aikido seems to incorporate some transferable skills with respect to weapon use. However, a weapon seems to be more than just an extension of your arm. The distancing, timing, relative angles the practitioners are likely to achieve, requisite body mechanics and the overall - for lack of a better word – tempo of the encounter are very different depending on what weapons and defences you're both using.

I fear, if you try to wield a Jo like a Katana, you're just going to get hurt - just as you'd get hurt if you tried to use a Katana without, among other things, understanding that a lighter more mobile footwork was called for than when trying to wield a fist or to throw someone. Different weights, different penetration characteristics, different lever points, (the ability to rapidly alter your lever points in the case of a Jo,) different speeds at which you can change angles; at least in my experience, they all tend to dictate different, partially overlapping, sets of skills to make best use of the things.

Ben

Aikibu
03-21-2012, 01:02 AM
In my experience, such dichotomies may be a little misleading.

Aikido seems to incorporate some transferable skills with respect to weapon use. However, a weapon seems to be more than just an extension of your arm. The distancing, timing, relative angles the practitioners are likely to achieve, requisite body mechanics and the overall - for lack of a better word -- tempo of the encounter are very different depending on what weapons and defences you're both using.

I fear, if you try to wield a Jo like a Katana, you're just going to get hurt - just as you'd get hurt if you tried to use a Katana without, among other things, understanding that a lighter more mobile footwork was called for than when trying to wield a fist or to throw someone. Different weights, different penetration characteristics, different lever points, (the ability to rapidly alter your lever points in the case of a Jo,) different speeds at which you can change angles; at least in my experience, they all tend to dictate different, partially overlapping, sets of skills to make best use of the things.

Ben

I guess I should have mentioned I am a long time student of the late Shoji Nishio Shihan and our Aikido does not seem to have some "transferable weapons skills"... its all "weapons skills" and just the way it works... Every Technique is integrated so that it can be expressed with all of the weapons I've mentioned. Our Maai, Hanmi, Atemi,and Irimi are different and reflect the use of these weapons. So when you execute Tai-jutsu you always cut, extend and thrust..."Aikido is the Sword" and Shoji Nishio spent his lifetime expressing this philosophy. he even developed his own form of Iaido which is also fully integrated with his Aikido.

I have been to more than my share of seminars over the last 20+ years and can see the difference in our approach to practice compared to others. I hope it does not sound like I am knocking them. How one decides to practice Aikido is totally cool with me.

So instead of saying "Weapons in Aikido" I would say "Weapons are Aikido" :)

William Hazen

lars beyer
03-21-2012, 04:21 AM
I guess I should have mentioned I am a long time student of the late Shoji Nishio Shihan and our Aikido does not seem to have some "transferable weapons skills"... its all "weapons skills" and just the way it works... Every Technique is integrated so that it can be expressed with all of the weapons I've mentioned. Our Maai, Hanmi, Atemi,and Irimi are different and reflect the use of these weapons. So when you execute Tai-jutsu you always cut, extend and thrust..."Aikido is the Sword" and Shoji Nishio spent his lifetime expressing this philosophy. he even developed his own form of Iaido which is also fully integrated with his Aikido.

I have been to more than my share of seminars over the last 20+ years and can see the difference in our approach to practice compared to others. I hope it does not sound like I am knocking them. How one decides to practice Aikido is totally cool with me.

So instead of saying "Weapons in Aikido" I would say "Weapons are Aikido" :)

William Hazen

Hi William,
I donīt think youre knocking others by explaining your style.I think itīs all about how you present yourself and respect others ideas and beliefs :)
I guess the reason I say "weapons in aikido" in the title of this thread is because some people put less or no emphasis on weapons and I donīt want to start a discussion with a conclusion.. Itīs up to people to decide what they think and what they like and shouldnīt be forced I feel. Othervise there would be no reason to discuss I feel.
Sometimes we get too attached to our own ideas I believe.
:)
Lars

Aikibu
03-21-2012, 08:52 AM
Hi William,
I donīt think youre knocking others by explaining your style.I think itīs all about how you present yourself and respect others ideas and beliefs :)
I guess the reason I say "weapons in aikido" in the title of this thread is because some people put less or no emphasis on weapons and I donīt want to start a discussion with a conclusion.. Itīs up to people to decide what they think and what they like and shouldnīt be forced I feel. Othervise there would be no reason to discuss I feel.
Sometimes we get too attached to our own ideas I believe.
:)
Lars

Very True Lars...and I agree. :)

William Hazen

Tom Verhoeven
03-21-2012, 07:02 PM
I've never seen Aiki in Aikido weapon work, so I don't know what to call it other than aikido weapons.

Since it seems to match aikido movement of ___________________flavor of any group, there's really nothing to discuss ...its just a bunch of people having fun....until the mid dan and kyu ranked people start to once again " imagine" they're doing real weapons, or that what they're doing is aiki.
Dan

First time I saw Aiki was in a game my father showed me. Then I saw it in handball and in football. I found it in nature. And in working with animals. I found it in western boxing, fencing and in kempo. I saw it in Aiki weapons. But it took a long time before I saw anyone do Aiki in Aikido !

All the best!

Tom

JJF
03-22-2012, 05:20 AM
I guess I should have mentioned I am a long time student of the late Shoji Nishio Shihan and our Aikido does not seem to have some "transferable weapons skills"... its all "weapons skills" and just the way it works... Every Technique is integrated so that it can be expressed with all of the weapons I've mentioned. Our Maai, Hanmi, Atemi,and Irimi are different and reflect the use of these weapons. So when you execute Tai-jutsu you always cut, extend and thrust..."Aikido is the Sword" and Shoji Nishio spent his lifetime expressing this philosophy. he even developed his own form of Iaido which is also fully integrated with his Aikido.

I have been to more than my share of seminars over the last 20+ years and can see the difference in our approach to practice compared to others. I hope it does not sound like I am knocking them. How one decides to practice Aikido is totally cool with me.

So instead of saying "Weapons in Aikido" I would say "Weapons are Aikido" :)

William Hazen

Hi William. I think we spend a few hours on the mat together in Denmark some years back during easter camp. It was one of the last - if not THE last - visit by Nishio sensei there. I'm was a student of Leo sensei back then.. used to have a pony tail and really ugly glasses :)

It's obvious that you and I share the same background and have inherited similar views on how to incorporate weapons work in our aikido.

I will even go so far as to say that the sword and the jo are great teachers of Aikido. If I manage to learn how to cut with the japanese sword and how to move the jo - then it will change my way of moving when doing tachi-waza. At least when you practice aikido the way Nishio sensei taught it.

I have seen my fair share of people trying to move or twist uke with power instead of releasing the power of the cutting sensation that you can only fully understand by practicing with a sword. Not to say that you can ONLY learn Aikido from working with weapons - but it sure does help in my point of view... AND let's not forget... it looks really cool ;)

JJ

Aikibu
03-23-2012, 02:49 AM
Thanks JJ and I agree. You may be confusing me with the other William Hazen though. LOL...I know it's weird to think there are two William Hazen's who practice Shoji Nishio Ryu but God has a funny sense of humor. He lives on the East Coast of the US and I live on the West Coast. We "bumped into each other" once when Nishio Shihan held a seminar in Santa Cruz California...A friend of mine saw me and called my name from across the mat...We were both standing next to each other and up until that moment we had no idea we shared the same name...Nishio Shihan sure got a kick out of it! :) The East Coast William Hazen spends allot of time in Northern Europe.

William West Coast Hazen :)

JJF
03-23-2012, 05:57 AM
Thanks JJ and I agree. You may be confusing me with the other William Hazen though. LOL...I know it's weird to think there are two William Hazen's who practice Shoji Nishio Ryu but God has a funny sense of humor. He lives on the East Coast of the US and I live on the West Coast. We "bumped into each other" once when Nishio Shihan held a seminar in Santa Cruz California...A friend of mine saw me and called my name from across the mat...We were both standing next to each other and up until that moment we had no idea we shared the same name...Nishio Shihan sure got a kick out of it! :) The East Coast William Hazen spends allot of time in Northern Europe.

William West Coast Hazen :)

WWCH:

That's amazing. What a coincidence. Anyway,,, should you happen to plan to go to Scandinavia at some time consider going to our annual Easter seminar..(http://www.aikikai.dk/?p=421#more-421). Just ask WECH if it's worth the journey :)

You are always welcome in my dojo as well :) (www.vestfynaikikai.dk)

Sincerely

JJ

DH
03-24-2012, 06:17 AM
First time I saw Aiki was in a game my father showed me. Then I saw it in handball and in football. I found it in nature. And in working with animals. I found it in western boxing, fencing and in kempo. I saw it in Aiki weapons. But it took a long time before I saw anyone do Aiki in Aikido !

All the best!

Tom
I am happy for you that you think you see aiki everywhere. When and if I ever see "aiki in weapons" in aikido I will be the first to say where and with who. All I ever see is aikido movement with a weapon in their hand.

This isn't play time in the sand box. There is a very real truth here. When it comes to weapons; sword, spear, twin sticks and knives...things get very real and very defined and it is over very quickly.
I continue to take accomplished budoka (some who are weapons experts) apart...with aiki. So far as I have seen and felt; expert level teachers have never truly felt aiki in a weapon and really do not know what the hell they are talking about in using the term, student level budoka are only demonstrating incredible ignorance in entering into a conversation about it and only embarrass themselves in person.
As one of your Shihan said to a couple of us in an open room
"I don't get it.
If I cut first...I'm dead.
If you cut first...I'm dead
If we meet...I'm dead.
What do I do?"
My buddy said
"Die well."
I don't have much patience for B.S., hand holding of sensitive feelings, and sugar coating very real and repeatable results. The truth continues to stare your teachers in the face as they stand all but defenseless and get cut down.
The only thing left for Aikido teachers to do is to actually learn power and aiki so that you do know what you're talking about. That's it and that's all.

Keep in mind a closed meeting of Shihan that took place in Japan with Doshu. A shihan stood up and said "We have to stop demonstrating weapons in public in Japan. There are educated budoka watching and they are laughing at us."
Another shihan privately thanked him for having the courage to finally say it.
And nothing changed. And consider what he said ...as I repeat that nothing has changed.

Dan

DH
03-24-2012, 07:59 AM
I want to add for those who will no doubt be offended:
At least realize that those of us who continue to take both you and your theories apart -are also standing there with you after....sweating it out with you, and taking the time, to teach and help. That...is caring and offering a hand.
Dan

Aikibu
03-24-2012, 10:49 AM
I am happy for you that you think you see aiki everywhere. When and if I ever see "aiki in weapons" in aikido I will be the first to say where and with who. All I ever see is aikido movement with a weapon in their hand.

This isn't play time in the sand box. There is a very real truth here. When it comes to weapons; sword, spear, twin sticks and knives...things get very real and very defined and it is over very quickly.
I continue to take accomplished budoka (some who are weapons experts) apart...with aiki. So far as I have seen and felt; expert level teachers have never truly felt aiki in a weapon and really do not know what the hell they are talking about in using the term, student level budoka are only demonstrating incredible ignorance in entering into a conversation about it and only embarrass themselves in person.
As one of your Shihan said to a couple of us in an open room
"I don't get it.
If I cut first...I'm dead.
If you cut first...I'm dead
If we meet...I'm dead.
What do I do?"
My buddy said
"Die well."
I don't have much patience for B.S., hand holding of sensitive feelings, and sugar coating very real and repeatable results. The truth continues to stare your teachers in the face as they stand all but defenseless and get cut down.
The only thing left for Aikido teachers to do is to actually learn power and aiki so that you do know what you're talking about. That's it and that's all.

Keep in mind a closed meeting of Shihan that took place in Japan with Doshu. A shihan stood up and said "We have to stop demonstrating weapons in public in Japan. There are educated budoka watching and they are laughing at us."
Another shihan privately thanked him for having the courage to finally say it.
And nothing changed. And consider what he said ...as I repeat that nothing has changed.

Dan

No worries Dan. We always allow you to cut first... it's a better way to die. ;) Good Post.

William Hazen

lars beyer
03-24-2012, 06:24 PM
(Pssssst..Apart from death I have better ways to waste my life.. eating, drinking, dancing, practicing aikido, books, movies, work nīstuff..)
:)

sakumeikan
03-24-2012, 07:24 PM
"We have to stop demonstrating weapons in public in Japan. There are educated budoka watching and they are laughing at us."[/I]
Another shihan privately thanked him for having the courage to finally say it.
And nothing changed. And consider what he said ...as I repeat that nothing has changed.

Dan

Dear Dan
I am sure I am not the only person on this forum who would like to know what Shihan said the above to Doshu and when this Shihan said it.I would have thought a statement by any Shihan to Doshu of this nature would have spread like wildfire through the aikido fraternity.I look forward to your reply.i hope as ever you are well.Cheers, Joe.

Chris Li
03-24-2012, 07:28 PM
Dear Dan
I am sure I am not the only person on this forum who would like to know what Shihan said the above to Doshu and when this Shihan said it.I would have thought a statement by any Shihan to Doshu of this nature would have spread like wildfire through the aikido fraternity.I look forward to your reply.i hope as ever you are well.Cheers, Joe.

Yoshio Kuroiwa - check out Interlude Three (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17729).

Best,

Chris

Allen Beebe
03-24-2012, 10:01 PM
To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth.

~Voltaire

lars beyer
03-25-2012, 02:36 PM
Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.
Morihei Ueshiba

lbb
03-25-2012, 08:08 PM
Always keep a litterbag in your car. It doesn't take up much room, and if it gets full, you can just toss it out the window.

- Steve Martin

mathewjgano
03-25-2012, 08:26 PM
Always keep a litterbag in your car. It doesn't take up much room, and if it gets full, you can just toss it out the window.

- Steve Martin

:D Well excuuuuuuuse me!

lars beyer
03-26-2012, 12:48 AM
Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.
Morihei Ueshiba

I was not merely considering my own efforts, but there you have it, smack right in your face.

bothhandsclapping
04-04-2012, 10:02 PM
Having practiced akikjo, aikiken, the traditional sword (Shinkage-ryu) and the traditional jo (Muso Ryu) for over 20 years, I'd offer these two layers of the weapons training onion ...

1.) Excellent practice in 'structural' aikido ... balance, footwork, and timing, Can you demonstrate how to move, where to move, when when to move?

2.) When taught well, an opportunity to truly investigate the fundamental principles of yang-yin-zero (expanding, contracting, and yang-yin disappearing). Can you demonstrate firmness, softness and nothingness?

sakumeikan
04-05-2012, 05:43 AM
Having practiced akikjo, aikiken, the traditional sword (Shinkage-ryu) and the traditional jo (Muso Ryu) for over 20 years, I'd offer these two layers of the weapons training onion ...

1.) Excellent practice in 'structural' aikido ... balance, footwork, and timing, Can you demonstrate how to move, where to move, when when to move?

2.) When taught well, an opportunity to truly investigate the fundamental principles of yang-yin-zero (expanding, contracting, and yang-yin disappearing). Can you demonstrate firmness, softness and nothingness?

Dear Jim,
Agree with your views here.Do you know the Varjans, Kristina and Rikko? I also have a friend called John Mullican, maybe you know them?? Cheers, Joe.

bothhandsclapping
04-05-2012, 08:45 AM
Dear Jim,
Agree with your views here.Do you know the Varjans, Kristina and Rikko? I also have a friend called John Mullican, maybe you know them?? Cheers, Joe.

You know, I did meet them once, on a mat in Hawaii, was probably 2003. Haven't run across them since they've moved here. Very nice training. I do not know John.

lars beyer
04-05-2012, 01:34 PM
Having practiced akikjo, aikiken, the traditional sword (Shinkage-ryu) and the traditional jo (Muso Ryu) for over 20 years, I'd offer these two layers of the weapons training onion ...

1.) Excellent practice in 'structural' aikido ... balance, footwork, and timing, Can you demonstrate how to move, where to move, when when to move?

2.) When taught well, an opportunity to truly investigate the fundamental principles of yang-yin-zero (expanding, contracting, and yang-yin disappearing). Can you demonstrate firmness, softness and nothingness?

Are these rhetorical questions ?
Cheers
Lars

bothhandsclapping
04-05-2012, 11:41 PM
Are these rhetorical questions ?
Cheers
Lars
Not questions, Lars, but more like reminders to myself and our club as to why we practice the aikido weapons. That is, "are we demonstrating proper balance, are we demonstrating proper angles and are we demonstrating proper breathing?"

The second set of questions are the focus of our traditional weapons (Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu) classes. Here, it's all about the teacher-student relationship ... the pressing teacher, never giving the student a chance to relax ... and the yielding student, ever-watchful, always responding to the teacher's attacks ... and then nothingness, the zero state, those times when the teacher and student are one.

If ever I pose a question in a post, it's always to myself.

Cheers,

lars beyer
04-06-2012, 07:32 AM
Not questions, Lars, but more like reminders to myself and our club as to why we practice the aikido weapons. That is, "are we demonstrating proper balance, are we demonstrating proper angles and are we demonstrating proper breathing?"

The second set of questions are the focus of our traditional weapons (Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu) classes. Here, it's all about the teacher-student relationship ... the pressing teacher, never giving the student a chance to relax ... and the yielding student, ever-watchful, always responding to the teacher's attacks ... and then nothingness, the zero state, those times when the teacher and student are one.

If ever I pose a question in a post, it's always to myself.

Cheers,

Ok, thanks for explaining. How do you incorporate Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu into your practice ?
I know maybe itīs a bit of a broad question, but I think itīs interesting because I have been wondering to try more "traditional" weapons practice to get a broader understanding of sword work.
Thanks :)

bothhandsclapping
04-11-2012, 09:17 PM
We keep them separate ... aikido is aikiken and aikijo. The traditional sword and staff are separate. While some aikido students train in the traditional weapons, not all.

lars beyer
04-12-2012, 12:06 AM
We keep them separate ... aikido is aikiken and aikijo. The traditional sword and staff are separate. While some aikido students train in the traditional weapons, not all.

I did som qi gong practise some years ago and it made me conscious about how I align my hipbone with my spine.. my stance, how deep it is.. how to (try and) relax the shoulders, the knees, overall weight distribution...small adjustments, small improvements I guess.. refining the basic stance and movements..
Maybe you have similar experiences with your other weapons practise that inspired you to look at your aikido in other ways than usual..

Edgecrusher
05-23-2012, 07:52 AM
At the school I train at Tanto (Knife) and Double Tanto are required for Shodan. Yari (spear) is to come when I am more advanced. Unfortunately we will not be taught Bokken or Sword, primarily because my instructor was not taught them. We would welcome anyone to teach us. It is something to see.

sakumeikan
05-23-2012, 11:34 AM
Hi Mathew,

You have some very prominent Aikido senseis and shihans in your home country who knows traditional aikido weapons extremely well. Like Pat Hendricks, Bill Witt, Hans Goto, David Alexander, Stephanie Yap, Miles Kessler, Mark Larson,Vincent Salvatore and many more. If they canīt explain that to you.. well.. I guess nobody can. :)

Peace
Lars

Hi Lars, Dont forget Chiba Sensei /Shibata Sensei .Cheers Joe. ps check out Birran online [Youtube ].

Autrelle Holland
05-23-2012, 11:28 PM
At the school I train at Tanto (Knife) and Double Tanto are required for Shodan. Yari (spear) is to come when I am more advanced. Unfortunately we will not be taught Bokken or Sword, primarily because my instructor was not taught them. We would welcome anyone to teach us. It is something to see.

What is the name of your school? Sounds amazing.

Edgecrusher
05-24-2012, 07:30 AM
What is the name of your school? Sounds amazing.

Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo in Tampa, Florida. Our Instructor is Phil Van Treese Shihan (Hachidan) and we are learning Tomiki. Phil was a student of Kenji Tomiki (who was his Judo instructor as well) and has trained and taught all over the world. I am truly honored to be Phil shihan's student and represent him when I go to seminars. How about you? Where do you train?

Autrelle Holland
05-25-2012, 12:29 PM
Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo in Tampa, Florida. Our Instructor is Phil Van Treese Shihan (Hachidan) and we are learning Tomiki. Phil was a student of Kenji Tomiki (who was his Judo instructor as well) and has trained and taught all over the world. I am truly honored to be Phil shihan's student and represent him when I go to seminars. How about you? Where do you train?

I run an independent dojo in Jacksonville, Florida. I teach the Aikido and Kali classes. We also offer Kenjutsu and Iaido. I teach Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo alongside with everyone else. I'll be sure to look you up if I'm ever in the area. Please feel free to stop in if you are ever in Jacksonville.

lars beyer
05-26-2012, 01:31 AM
Hi Lars, Dont forget Chiba Sensei /Shibata Sensei .Cheers Joe. ps check out Birran online [Youtube ].

I wonīt, but this is the lineage I study :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=21y32ASY3Sw

Enjoy !

Lars
:)

sakumeikan
05-26-2012, 08:45 AM
I wonīt, but this is the lineage I study :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=21y32ASY3Sw

Enjoy !

Lars
:)

Hi Lars,
As it happens Chiba Sensei [as did most everybody] considered Saito Sensei a great man.Have you read Chiba Senseis eulogy in relation to Saito Sensei passing on the net?The volumes relating to Saito Sensei [Takemusu aiki]did much to bring knowledge of Riai to early 70s Aikidoka.So in a nutshell I personally admire Saito Sensei and his legacy.However Saito Sensei , great as he may have been, does not imo have all the answers.There are a few innovators in Aikiken /Aikijo still active.I simply mentioned two other Shihan. No more no less. Cheers, Joe.

Edgecrusher
05-27-2012, 12:28 PM
I run an independent dojo in Jacksonville, Florida. I teach the Aikido and Kali classes. We also offer Kenjutsu and Iaido. I teach Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo alongside with everyone else. I'll be sure to look you up if I'm ever in the area. Please feel free to stop in if you are ever in Jacksonville.

Please do, we are always welcome to new things. Look forward to future meeting.

Adam Huss
06-01-2012, 12:39 PM
Hi Lars,
We do a bit of weapons stuff too, so I guess I'll jump in here and share some. We have seven jo kata, two bokken, seven tanto, and several paired sets. We also have some renzoku waza/drills, and solo rezoku. There is also a killer, ju no kumi tanto, which is a ten set pairing we have to learn for shodan....both as uke and shite. Its brutal for later on tests because it be called as a previous technique....got to love it when sensei calls a previous technique that is basically 20 movement set, lol. Anyway, I looked through my youtube manager and found one of the kumi tanto jo pairings....can't recall the name of it, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Gg-KZ3ykc

Adam Huss
06-01-2012, 01:54 PM
Actually, just found this...way more appropriate to the discussion. So when my teacher went off on his own to start his organization he felt there were way too many weapons techniques in the curriculum. Because of this he made a separate class, named it Aiki Buki, for those wishing to spend more time with in-depth study of weapons. The movements are altered from their original weapons styles to be more of a training tool for aikido (you will notice some adaptations of stances and maai) than for learning practical fighting with weapons. Our regular aikido syllabus retains an atypically large amount of weapon work, but much of it was cut out and put in a separate syllabus for those interested in more weapons training. Anyway, here is a clip of the opening introduction to one of our in-house training/curriculum tapes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSgCsvnsdc

lars beyer
06-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Actually, just found this...way more appropriate to the discussion. So when my teacher went off on his own to start his organization he felt there were way too many weapons techniques in the curriculum. Because of this he made a separate class, named it Aiki Buki, for those wishing to spend more time with in-depth study of weapons. The movements are altered from their original weapons styles to be more of a training tool for aikido (you will notice some adaptations of stances and maai) than for learning practical fighting with weapons. Our regular aikido syllabus retains an atypically large amount of weapon work, but much of it was cut out and put in a separate syllabus for those interested in more weapons training. Anyway, here is a clip of the opening introduction to one of our in-house training/curriculum tapes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSgCsvnsdc

Hi Adam,
Thats interresting, I have never seen a "jo tai tanto" kata before. How do you apply those principles to tai jutsu ?
Cheers
Lars

Adam Huss
06-04-2012, 05:53 AM
Lars,

Thanks Lars, I hope you would find it interesting given your inquiry about various weapons forms. We use a litany of kumi buki.

Naming of our weapons pairing techniques are pretty simple; "Kumi Weapon A, Weapon B, First movement, Last movement." So, for example, "Kumitachi Kote giri Kote Osae" is a kihon buki waza that pairs sword vs sword starting with a wrist cut and finishing with a wrist control. Or "Kumitachi Jo Kote Sando giri" is a sword vs jo pairing that involves wrist cut three times.

These movements were changed slightly from their original forms and altered slightly to adhere to basic principals of our aikido training. More extension, our particular stances, and most importantly spiritual training (ie 'harder training' since its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard).

To answer your question a little more specifically I will say that varied length kumibuki are my favorite weapons techniques. Pairing a tanto against a sword or jo really teachers a student to move confidently; a student with appropriate ma'ai and timing who is moving in and out of the danger ranges of a student with a jo can really get good training in their aikido principals and train a budo spirit. If I want to see how serious a fellow student is, I pay attention to how they go about their weapons work. If they lazily slap sticks with their partner, don'y fully lock into the stance from 'step one' before transitioning to 'step two' then I have a bit of a gauge of what training means to them (or myself).

Specific application to 'tai jutsu.' So we don't really have the famous 'four/five principals of aikido' as staple specifically talked about in our training. We are guided to be aware of other martial arts styles and organizations, so we are aware of these principals, but we do not use them as 'taught training methods.' Rather than telling a student to 'extend ki,' we require specific body posture and movement that will result in appropriate application of ki. Or rather than saying 'keep weight underside' students are required to have a specific orientation of heads/shoulders/hips that result in weight being 'underside' or centered. And, of course, movement and transitioning from position to position while maintaining these appropriate postures is key for hand techniques when training buki waza. Thanks again for your interest...all the best!

hope that wasn't worded too poorly!

lars beyer
06-04-2012, 09:42 AM
Lars,

Thanks Lars, I hope you would find it interesting given your inquiry about various weapons forms. We use a litany of kumi buki.

Naming of our weapons pairing techniques are pretty simple; "Kumi Weapon A, Weapon B, First movement, Last movement." So, for example, "Kumitachi Kote giri Kote Osae" is a kihon buki waza that pairs sword vs sword starting with a wrist cut and finishing with a wrist control. Or "Kumitachi Jo Kote Sando giri" is a sword vs jo pairing that involves wrist cut three times.

These movements were changed slightly from their original forms and altered slightly to adhere to basic principals of our aikido training. More extension, our particular stances, and most importantly spiritual training (ie 'harder training' since its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard).

To answer your question a little more specifically I will say that varied length kumibuki are my favorite weapons techniques. Pairing a tanto against a sword or jo really teachers a student to move confidently; a student with appropriate ma'ai and timing who is moving in and out of the danger ranges of a student with a jo can really get good training in their aikido principals and train a budo spirit. If I want to see how serious a fellow student is, I pay attention to how they go about their weapons work. If they lazily slap sticks with their partner, don'y fully lock into the stance from 'step one' before transitioning to 'step two' then I have a bit of a gauge of what training means to them (or myself).

Specific application to 'tai jutsu.' So we don't really have the famous 'four/five principals of aikido' as staple specifically talked about in our training. We are guided to be aware of other martial arts styles and organizations, so we are aware of these principals, but we do not use them as 'taught training methods.' Rather than telling a student to 'extend ki,' we require specific body posture and movement that will result in appropriate application of ki. Or rather than saying 'keep weight underside' students are required to have a specific orientation of heads/shoulders/hips that result in weight being 'underside' or centered. And, of course, movement and transitioning from position to position while maintaining these appropriate postures is key for hand techniques when training buki waza. Thanks again for your interest...all the best!

hope that wasn't worded too poorly!

Hi Adam,
Thanks for the good explanation, itīs quite impressive I must say ! :)
Do you practise Yoshinkan Aikido ?
Regards,
Lars

lars beyer
06-04-2012, 12:12 PM
Lars,

Thanks Lars, I hope you would find it interesting given your inquiry about various weapons forms. We use a litany of kumi buki.

Naming of our weapons pairing techniques are pretty simple; "Kumi Weapon A, Weapon B, First movement, Last movement." So, for example, "Kumitachi Kote giri Kote Osae" is a kihon buki waza that pairs sword vs sword starting with a wrist cut and finishing with a wrist control. Or "Kumitachi Jo Kote Sando giri" is a sword vs jo pairing that involves wrist cut three times.

These movements were changed slightly from their original forms and altered slightly to adhere to basic principals of our aikido training. More extension, our particular stances, and most importantly spiritual training (ie 'harder training' since its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard).

To answer your question a little more specifically I will say that varied length kumibuki are my favorite weapons techniques. Pairing a tanto against a sword or jo really teachers a student to move confidently; a student with appropriate ma'ai and timing who is moving in and out of the danger ranges of a student with a jo can really get good training in their aikido principals and train a budo spirit. If I want to see how serious a fellow student is, I pay attention to how they go about their weapons work. If they lazily slap sticks with their partner, don'y fully lock into the stance from 'step one' before transitioning to 'step two' then I have a bit of a gauge of what training means to them (or myself).

Specific application to 'tai jutsu.' So we don't really have the famous 'four/five principals of aikido' as staple specifically talked about in our training. We are guided to be aware of other martial arts styles and organizations, so we are aware of these principals, but we do not use them as 'taught training methods.' Rather than telling a student to 'extend ki,' we require specific body posture and movement that will result in appropriate application of ki. Or rather than saying 'keep weight underside' students are required to have a specific orientation of heads/shoulders/hips that result in weight being 'underside' or centered. And, of course, movement and transitioning from position to position while maintaining these appropriate postures is key for hand techniques when training buki waza. Thanks again for your interest...all the best!

hope that wasn't worded too poorly!

Hi Adam,
Thanks for the good explanation, itīs quite impressive I must say ! :)
Do you practise Yoshinkan Aikido ?
Regards,
Lars

Adam Huss
06-04-2012, 12:52 PM
Lars,
my federation has Yoshinkan aikido influence, among others, but our weapons forms mostly stand apart and are derived from other weapon arts. Take care,
Osu!
Adam

lars beyer
06-05-2012, 08:22 AM
Lars,
my federation has Yoshinkan aikido influence, among others, but our weapons forms mostly stand apart and are derived from other weapon arts. Take care,
Osu!
Adam

Which weapons forms does your weapons practise derive from ?
Do you practise emptyhanded jo, tanto, tachi dori in your particular style ?
Onegaishimasu !
Lars

hughrbeyer
06-05-2012, 08:28 AM
... its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard

:confused:

lars beyer
06-05-2012, 09:33 AM
:confused:

Itīs true that this kind of all out weapons practise is good for developing a strong, immoveable and pliant center for both Uketachi and Uchitachi. Afterall hitting two pieces of wood against eachother at full force is more constructive than smashing your trainingpartners spine into the matt at full speed.
But basic suburi and basic partnerpractise skills have to be mastered before going all out in weapons. Othervise it would lead to injury- were not talking about kendo, we are talking about weapons practise with no body protection against a heavy oak weapon with no tsuba.
So timing, blending (awase) and correct maai becomes quite important- because you donīt want to get hit
in the first place- just like when you are dealing with a real (sharp) weapon.
Lars

DH
06-05-2012, 01:29 PM
Itīs true that this kind of all out weapons practise is good for developing a strong, immoveable and pliant center for both Uketachi and Uchitachi. Afterall hitting two pieces of wood against eachother at full force is more constructive than smashing your trainingpartners spine into the matt at full speed.
But basic suburi and basic partnerpractise skills have to be mastered before going all out in weapons. Othervise it would lead to injury- were not talking about kendo, we are talking about weapons practise with no body protection against a heavy oak weapon with no tsuba.
So timing, blending (awase) and correct maai becomes quite important- because you donīt want to get hit
in the first place- just like when you are dealing with a real (sharp) weapon.
Lars
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan

sakumeikan
06-05-2012, 01:37 PM
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan

Dear Dan
Hip hip hooray!! I agree with you here.Could there by chance we are drawing closer in respect of a common viewpoint?Answers on a 100$ bill , please . Cheers, Joe.

Rob Watson
06-05-2012, 01:38 PM
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan

I love those vids of Otake showing a kata then explaining 'of course, with real weapons you would never do it like this ... for the sake of training, etc' (paraphrased). Some folks must have had the sound turned down and only saw the kata but never heard the explanation.

I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that for the sake of safety the baby has been chucked out with the bath water.

hughrbeyer
06-05-2012, 01:58 PM
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons...

Hey! I resemble that remark! :grr: :D :grr:

Maarten De Queecker
06-05-2012, 03:58 PM
Itīs true that this kind of all out weapons practise is good for developing a strong, immoveable and pliant center for both Uketachi and Uchitachi. Afterall hitting two pieces of wood against eachother at full force is more constructive than smashing your trainingpartners spine into the matt at full speed.
But basic suburi and basic partnerpractise skills have to be mastered before going all out in weapons. Othervise it would lead to injury- were not talking about kendo, we are talking about weapons practise with no body protection against a heavy oak weapon with no tsuba.
So timing, blending (awase) and correct maai becomes quite important- because you donīt want to get hit
in the first place- just like when you are dealing with a real (sharp) weapon.
Lars

Getting smashed into the mat is kind of part of martial arts training, in my opinion. I actually love it. I'll be honest, it's hard to learn a technique (or a variation on a technique) when you train with someone you can't go all out with. I'd go as far as saying that it's harder to properly do a technique with someone who attacks you slowly than with someone who comes at you full speed. Someone who comes at you full speed gives you a lot of energy you can work with but at the same time makes sure you don't get much time to think. It's do or die, so to say.

Adam Huss
06-05-2012, 04:57 PM
Lars,

we certainly do practice throwing with weapons and defense against weapon grabs. We do both freestyle and set kata buki nage/tori. I also find these greatly aid in my spiritual forging training. And, it goes without saying, we do always practice proper technique with weapons...not just haphazardly smashing our sticks together. I know you didn't mean to imply that...but sometimes its good to clarify on these message boards.

A long time ago these techniques were based on Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu Jodo, but I am sure any resemblance to the original techniques has long since been changed. We claim no direct lineage to those esteemed ryu ha. I could be off, but our curriculum breaks down as follows:
38 Kihon kumitachi
18 Oyo kumitachi
38 Kihom kumijo
4 Oyo Kumijo
4 Renzoku Kumijo (continuation drills basically)
10 kumitanto
9 Kumitachi jo (tachi shite)
5 Kumitachi jo (jo shite)
1 Kumitanto jo (tanto shite)
3 Kumitanto jo (jo shite)
4 Kumitachi tanto (all the rest just kata)
3 Tachi tandoku kata
5 Tanto tandoku kata
6 Jo tandoku kata (although one is more of a solo continuation exercise of six moves...the other five are traditional kata).
*these numbers quantify pairing sets that require multiple variations in the same set, ie left-side/right-side movements, or gyaku vs junte grips.

In addition, we have our aikikai influenced buki waza which should be more familiar. These come directly from Fumio Toyoda in the AAA....which, I'm sure, were influenced by Saito Sensei way back when:
2 jo kata
2 bokken kata
bokken suburi (shomen, yoko, tsuki)
jo nage/tori
tanto dori
bokken dori
we also are recently starting to implement bunkai from jo kata 1 in an official capacity.

Anyway, just found my old instructors handbook while cleaning and discovered the weapons movements are broken down in there. I am not sure if they include all the techniques from the aikibuki class that is taught, or if its just the techniques required for aikido students. Thanks again, and good messaging with you Lars San!
Osu!
Adam

lars beyer
06-05-2012, 05:31 PM
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan

Hi Dan
I use the word `smashing your partners spine into the matt` comparing it to `smashing two pieces of wood together` for the purpose of explaining Adamīs point about rigorous practise, not to explain whatīs actually going on doing paired Aikiken and Aikijo practise- this would take forever to explain and is best enjoyed in the dojo. ( Iīm also in a continous learning process so whatever I write here I would have to rethink and explain differently in two years time so I like to stick with very basic ideas..

Keeping my kitchen knifes in perfect condition I know one thing- slice the carrot, not the finger.
Iīm sure you have very advanced skills when it comes to practising with a live blade and Iīm not talking about that really, I will leave that to people like yourself.
Cheers
Lars

hughrbeyer
06-05-2012, 09:41 PM
I'm still a little gobsmacked about the idea that weapons practice is easier and safer than taijutsu.

I once received a yokumen strike across the temple full force during normal kumitachi practice. I had been thinking more about some advice I'd received about how to block than about keeping myself safe--a lesson there about where you go for advice--and the only reason I'm typing this now is that we happened to be using shinai that day. As it was, I staggered around the dojo seeing stars for quite a while.

Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity. Someone is swinging a club at your head, after all. The idea that this might be the safer practice is... a novelty.

lars beyer
06-06-2012, 01:06 AM
I'm still a little gobsmacked about the idea that weapons practice is easier and safer than taijutsu.

I once received a yokumen strike across the temple full force during normal kumitachi practice. I had been thinking more about some advice I'd received about how to block than about keeping myself safe--a lesson there about where you go for advice--and the only reason I'm typing this now is that we happened to be using shinai that day. As it was, I staggered around the dojo seeing stars for quite a while.

Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity. Someone is swinging a club at your head, after all. The idea that this might be the safer practice is... a novelty.

Just for the record.. Noone is claiming that weapons practise is "safer and easier" than tai jutsu.
Thats your interpretation.
Lars

phitruong
06-06-2012, 08:05 AM
Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity. Someone is swinging a club at your head, after all. The idea that this might be the safer practice is... a novelty.

it's all relative, as in the theory of relative where you should never lend them money. if you notice, many aikido weapon works, folks don't really want to nail the other person, so they pull way back and not much intent going out. it's a difficult balance when you practice not to pull your strike, but still have precision of control and not doing slow-mo matrix style.

btw, blocking shinai with your head is an acceptable form of entertainment, for other folks watching. :)

lars beyer
06-07-2012, 02:31 PM
Lars,

we certainly do practice throwing with weapons and defense against weapon grabs. We do both freestyle and set kata buki nage/tori. I also find these greatly aid in my spiritual forging training. And, it goes without saying, we do always practice proper technique with weapons...not just haphazardly smashing our sticks together. I know you didn't mean to imply that...but sometimes its good to clarify on these message boards.

A long time ago these techniques were based on Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu Jodo, but I am sure any resemblance to the original techniques has long since been changed. We claim no direct lineage to those esteemed ryu ha. I could be off, but our curriculum breaks down as follows:
38 Kihon kumitachi
18 Oyo kumitachi
38 Kihom kumijo
4 Oyo Kumijo
4 Renzoku Kumijo (continuation drills basically)
10 kumitanto
9 Kumitachi jo (tachi shite)
5 Kumitachi jo (jo shite)
1 Kumitanto jo (tanto shite)
3 Kumitanto jo (jo shite)
4 Kumitachi tanto (all the rest just kata)
3 Tachi tandoku kata
5 Tanto tandoku kata
6 Jo tandoku kata (although one is more of a solo continuation exercise of six moves...the other five are traditional kata).
*these numbers quantify pairing sets that require multiple variations in the same set, ie left-side/right-side movements, or gyaku vs junte grips.

In addition, we have our aikikai influenced buki waza which should be more familiar. These come directly from Fumio Toyoda in the AAA....which, I'm sure, were influenced by Saito Sensei way back when:
2 jo kata
2 bokken kata
bokken suburi (shomen, yoko, tsuki)
jo nage/tori
tanto dori
bokken dori
we also are recently starting to implement bunkai from jo kata 1 in an official capacity.

Anyway, just found my old instructors handbook while cleaning and discovered the weapons movements are broken down in there. I am not sure if they include all the techniques from the aikibuki class that is taught, or if its just the techniques required for aikido students. Thanks again, and good messaging with you Lars San!
Osu!
Adam

Thank you Adam San :)
If you ever come to Copenhagen Denmark, please donīt hesitate to contact me, Iīm sure we could have some interresting discussions about Aikido and weapons and have fun doing Aikido !
Onegaishimasu !
Lars

lars beyer
06-07-2012, 03:14 PM
it's all relative, as in the theory of relative where you should never lend them money. if you notice, many aikido weapon works, folks don't really want to nail the other person, so they pull way back and not much intent going out. it's a difficult balance when you practice not to pull your strike, but still have precision of control and not doing slow-mo matrix style.

btw, blocking shinai with your head is an acceptable form of entertainment, for other folks watching. :)

Itīs true abut holding back your intention :)

lars beyer
06-07-2012, 03:44 PM
Itīs true abut holding back your intention :)

During partner practise offcourse ! :)

Rob Watson
06-07-2012, 05:58 PM
Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity.

Intensity? Certainly the risk goes up but intensity should be there even when the weapons are not.

hughrbeyer
06-07-2012, 10:00 PM
Yes, when I said you crank up the intensity with weapons I meant because of the risk factor, not because you shouldn't being practicing taijutsu with intensity.

In the accident I referred to, the guy I was practicing with didn't have the control to stop the strike after it slipped by my block--something else I ought to have known already. But of course, that's part of the base work of weapons practice--to develop that control. I figured out fairly early I couldn't learn the first thing my sensei was trying to teach until I developed it. I used to practice on azalea blossoms in the back yard... if I got through the practice without wearing out the blossom, I was doing good. :)

Adam Huss
06-07-2012, 10:28 PM
Lars san,

would love to get to Denmark one day. If I do, will make my way to Copenhagen for some budo training. Thank you for the kind invitation! Osu!

R/S
Adam

JJF
06-08-2012, 07:19 AM
Adam

Should you come to Denmark you might want to consider visiting one of the aikikai dojos inspired by Nishio sensei. We do a lot of weapons work (aiki toho, ken-tai-ken, ken-tai-jo and jo-sabaki / to-sabaki). It's a bit different than what they do where Lars is training so it might be interesting as a perspective on how to interpret weapons in aikido.

See you

JJ

Adam Huss
06-10-2012, 10:06 PM
Thank you for the warm invitation! I must get to Denmark now!

lars beyer
06-12-2012, 12:54 PM
Hi Lars,
As it happens Chiba Sensei [as did most everybody] considered Saito Sensei a great man.Have you read Chiba Senseis eulogy in relation to Saito Sensei passing on the net?The volumes relating to Saito Sensei [Takemusu aiki]did much to bring knowledge of Riai to early 70s Aikidoka.So in a nutshell I personally admire Saito Sensei and his legacy.However Saito Sensei , great as he may have been, does not imo have all the answers.There are a few innovators in Aikiken /Aikijo still active.I simply mentioned two other Shihan. No more no less. Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,
Yesterday I found a very informative chart at Aikido Journal. The chart lists a great number of direct students of Oīsensei, all very important in their own right I believe, and I agree I should have found it earlier.
I feel Aikido is not solely a product of descriptive charts and lineages but also depends upon whether or not the tradition within each dojo is kept alive and kicking.
From my perspective tradition and innovation goes hand in hand.
All the best,
Lars