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Marc Abrams
03-05-2012, 03:16 PM
Nice try but no cigar. I am still on topic thank you. Not discussing the ins and outs of Buddhism.

Passionate people are very competitive, compassionate people not so. That doesn't mean they don't stand up for what they believe. Nothing to do with competition.

Sophistry, nice word. As I said stand up for your belief is not competition.

Haven't even seen Mike yet. I answered those questions of yours then, did you listen? I have asked my friend who is going to see him, when he is ready and not before, and then it is for Mike to decide not you or me.

As I said to you, the idea I shall put to him is the idea of having his story told. Now this he may well like. Alas, to do so because of your 'demands' ? NO. So when the idea is put to him and if he agrees then we will find a person qualified to talk or correspond or meet him. It would be an honour for me to arrange such if he so desires.

Peace.G.

Graham:

I am heartened to hear that you still remember the questions, particularly in light of you accusing me of distorting your words. Let me help you out by providing you with your words:

Hi, pleased to meet you all. May I introduce myself properly. My name is Graham Christian and I have studied and practiced Aikido since 1981.
I have been teaching privately for abt. 15 years and currently hold a class in Highgate,London.
Having been fascinated by O'Sensei and struck as if by lightning by the concept of Harmony being the purpose of Aikido I entered into and onto the path.
My style is influenced by Sensei Mike Muspratt who was taught by Noro Sensei and Tohei Sensei and taught in the style of Aikikai.
I call my style Golden Center Aikido and can be seen on youtube under the name of 'humblegee'
My emphasis is on learning one point, center, hara, koshi, kokyu, ki, ki-atsu, along with the discipline of techniques and harmonious motion. Thank you for listening. G.

HI George,
May I congratulate you on an excellent response.Why do I say this? Because I see it is heartfelt, considered and sincere.
I have never been on a forum before and thus am learning many things here so it's all good to me. I find many of the responses interesting as I didn't expect it and so I learn I have been quite naive.
Now, as to going in to a big defence of my Aikido I have refrained from doing so for I have nothing to prove, my purpose is not to say look at me and how good I am, rightly or wrongly I did it as an experiment. Only recently, this year, someone pointed out to me that the Aikido I do was taped on camera and proceeded to show me how to make it into little vids. On doing this I was amazed because in all the 30 years of practice I had never seen myself do it. On looking at the vids my friends and students past and present got me to put them on youtube. It was all good fun for me yet I could see that not many people would understand what I was doing and that if I ever made any teaching videos they would have to be different to these, step by step, with commentary.So here in this forum I wondered what people in the Aikido fraternity would summise and boy did I find out!
I was trained in a private dojo, by invite only, so let me tell you just a little about my teacher. After being there for five years I remember asking him why he wasn't in a federation like Aikikai, or Yoshinkan etc. He told me that in the early days in this country he came to a dilemma in himself, he said many of those he trained with seemed to be going down the macho force route and refusing to develope on the Ki side of things, ie: have the Ki tests as he showed us as a major part of their training. He also said , rightly or wrongly that he thought if he made a stance politically at the time it would possibly cause a big split with some following him and others not. So he decided to go independant and was no longer interested in big organizations.
As for me, after 15 years it was time to go my own way, and to me from now on the world, the streets, work, would be my dojo so I ended up teaching privately whoever happened across me and liked what I had to offer. I never wanted to be an organization and so have never done Aikido as a business or club and only recently gave my style a name. I did hope that showing it with a different name ie:Golden Center, would show it is not the Aikido you are used to seeing and thus not cause offence.Once again naive.
Peace. G.

Hi Janet.
I agree with what you say.

I can only point out not only what I learned but how I learned it and the explanations given.

As you are probably aware I was taught with emphasis on the Tohei principles and my teacher was English. However he taught us within that framework Koshi.

Now on researching it I find it is not only well known in Japan but traces back to the origins of all Japanese martial arts.

I find this quite amusing as I have often pointed out to people how it makes early Judo and Sumo make sense.

I do remember early on my own teacher wondering why we wern't duplicating what he wanted us to do and then him realizing we had a different view on what using the hips meant. Thus our introduction to Koshi.

Anyway. Hopefully it's interesting at least and for some it may explain a few anomalies they have come across.

To clarify what I teach for others I would say that koshi is the centre of relaxing energy and hara is the centre of vibrant energy.

It would be interesting to know if or how often Tohei mentioned hips.

Regards.G.
That's perfectly understandable to me Janet. The west was interested in hara and not Koshi.

As I said it was of no significance to the Japanese for they were brought up knowing it. What someone like Tohei would see and note is the emphasis those from the west put on upper body and force thus the principles are to let go of all that and learn centre and relaxation.

One point leads to the stillness of mind.

Relaxing, weight underside leads to the understanding of Koshi.

Extending Ki leads to the understanding and use of Hara or centre.

I must say that I too never heard Tohei emphasize Koshi as such but did explain such things as dropping centre. When you see him do such things and watch carefully you will see it's not from the front so to speak but from Koshi. The west tend to put all this down to a low centre of gravity and look no further.

Regards.G.

Wrong again Greg I'm afraid. It is not me who implied this, it is those who want to find fault, a usual pastime for some.

I said I was taught it and my teacher emphasised Toheis principles. He knew the connection with Koshi. How? Who knows.

He was also taught mainly by Noro Sensei and when the split came in England he chose the route of Ki developement rather than force. So the continual link to Tohei is misplaced unless he was in fact taught it by Tohei. All this however is irrelevent as I am stating it and thus you can either learn or dismiss. I am also giving you references for you to gain increased knowledge of Koshi and it's history.

Another factor of My teacher was he was very stern in his teaching and zen. So we have a teacher who was zen orientated and taught what he had learned from Tohei and Noro and as to who else I don't know.

Have fun.G.
Hi Lynne.
Thanks for the response.

When I came into Aikido my teacher was actually from the Aikikai. He had chosen to go independent and although the political scene of Aikido and the split here in England has been well documented by such as Henry Ellis, I was unaware of such things as a student.

So I was taught actually thinking it was all Aikikai and that all Aikido was the same.

Later I found that those from yoshinkan who came to our dojo did it differently and that was my first awareness of differences.

On asking my teacher he explained it to us as a matter of spiritual discipline versus physical only. His view was that those who didn't understand the spiritual/philosophical went one direction and those who did went another.

Thus I found that those who adhered to Toheis view had split. He himself it turned out had gone independent because he didn't like the politics and in fact taught the Tohei principles along with his zen attitude and as I've only just discovered an understanding of Koshi and it's significance in Aikido.

Now who he got this Koshi aspect from I don't know, maybe Tohei, maybe noro, maybe Nakazono. All I know is it was there as part of my Aikido from the beginning.

Thus I understand how the fullness of one style of Aikido may not be fully appreciated by those of another style.

The number of times I've met people from other styles who wonder 'how I do that' are innumerable and only serve to show the vast array of differences.

There was in fact one lady who came from Aikikai as a shodan, I think she had done it for ten years, who then spent six years with us before she went up north to manchester where she said she would open her own independent dojo. I should catch up with her soon to see how she's doing.

Anyway it's all good learning.

Thanks again.

Regards,G.

Hi Phi.
Yes to both in short. To me it is the difference that makes all the difference and so what looks similar is in fact equated as the same thing.

Hence as I started Aikido based on Toheis principles from I might add a very stern teacher (zen style) I came across many people who could do things from other arts based on 'Ki' or 'chi' and had to go back training wondering what the difference was and indeed why it could be so different if it's meant to be Ki for example.

Thus I consider now I am quite good at recognising the differences.

That's all really.

Regards.G.
There you go again telling me about me and what I should do. Ha, ha. You do luv it.

My teacher trained with Noro and Tohei. If that's not enough for your consideration then so be it.

Your invite is for you alone, I look foreward to meeting you.

Mark and I have already communicated and will be meeting very soon. One thing is for sure, we will have fun.

I will be only to happy to train with him and give reality to him on what I do. Such a person I will indeed be honoured and privilaged to meet and share two way with. And may we both learn from each other.

Regards.G.

Hi Keith.
Glad you liked it. Reading of your experience there was also very interesting.

Funny you mention Kinomichi, yes I do know of it. Noro was my teachers teacher. He was very 'direct' in those days. Having seen more up to date videos of his Kinomichi I suppose there could be some similarities, yes. There must be some influence through lineage. Very astute of you Keith.

Regards.G.
Hi, thought I had, Noro, Tohei. His name is Mike Muspratt. Not much written about him on the net though. I managed to find one reference to him in one teachers book and one picture of him at Tohei summer camp 1976 I think, 70s anyway.

Regards.G.
Thanks for another well appreciated response.

By reading your brief outline on your 'history' it fits with your views, excellent. By how you explain your experiences briefly with Aikido places that emphasized spiritual I totally get that too. In fact there is nothing in what you say in each paragraph that I disagree with.

I would say every 'spiritual' Aikido I have experienced I myself and my friend for that matter always thought it was too 'airy fairy' and unreal. Now that means either I didn't visit enough places or a lot had missed the point in my way of thinking. On the other side of the coin we found many others rough and tumbling and 'useless' from our opinion and the same reasons above may also be the case.

However, to understand my 'history' you would first have to understand my training.

I entered Aikido not knowing there was a big political divide going on. My teacher had left the 'organization' and set up privately. His way was very dynamic as shown by the old video of Noro shown by Carsten on the spiritual thread. I therefore had met someone who did this very dynamic and stern art yet at the same time very spiritual.

I found that in his opinion he left because too many would not do the meditation or see the relevence of Ki and that it takes discipline to get those realities. So he was also influenced by Tohei.

Thus I learned a very important lesson throughout that whole period under his influence. One word, discipline. His answer to virtually everything.

Regards.G.

Dan.
I appreciate good intention. However, assumptions not so.

If I ask for help with something I am sure there would be many only too pleased on this forum to oblige.

If I want to learn a different method or even explore one then I am sure the same applies.

If I need to do or learn or improve any aspect then it will be and always has been a matter of if and when. Not subject to anyone elses opinion unless I have expressed a desire to so do.

Results only tell me when need is applicable, they are my expert who I listen to.

My ability is not much I talk about, especially in life, as it is not my main purpose. My purpose is teaching thus I can say with total confidence that most of any grade of martial artist can learn something from me and go away happy, be they ten times better than me at some things or not.

I learn every day and when I get stuck I find the area, seek out someone in that area, and learn.

As far as weapons go then there are some I may not know much about and some I may, to what level is not a question I even give myself. I don't think that way. My level is where it is and if I find I need to improve it I do if possible.

Now, the sword. Once again I have never talked about my personal competency with one, never shown it, probably never will for as I said I do not train people to be swordsmen as a specific purpose.
If a trained swordsman came to me and said they have a particular aspect of they wanted to improve then I would say show me. I would 'play' the part of the opponent only to discover if I could see some way, some principle that would help them in their quest. I would not do anything else.

I reckon I have practiced with and witnessed one of the best swordsmen around. My opinion. So while you pick your jaw back up off of the floor it merely shows I have some idea of the ways and rituals of the sword by virtue of witness first hand if not by levels of skill.

Once again this person is not some world famous name and doesn't want to be either, never did.

Skills of the sword in action, a real Katana not a bokken, up close and personal. So no need to tell me about 'taking apart in two seconds' or any such statements.

Skills in action. versus who knows, for at the times I witnessed they were different visitors from who knows where that he had agreed to show something.

Other skills in action personally witnessed regarding such sword work you probably wouldn't believe for they were hard enough to believe by the few of us there.

Regards.G.

The following was from a closed thread:
Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote:
I held back from this thread a bit because I wanted to see how it developed (and I have a life), but I'm unwilling to pass on without raising this one moment up to the light. Let's review the state of play as of my last post, shall we?

* Graham claimed sword knowledge through a lineage going back to Tohei Sensei.

* Others disputed Tohei's sword knowledge.

* Graham justified it by saying any Japanese martial artist of his generation would have sword knowledge.

* Others disputed that claim by naming several Japanese shihan who did not show or claimed not to have good sword knowledge, including the claim that Yamada Sensei never taught sword. (#192)

* Graham responded by saying he found videos on YouTube of Yamada with a bokken (#200).

* I asked for the link.

* Graham responded with two links, neither of which shows Yamada with a bokken. (#202)

That post, and Graham's prior post, were false. Neither video shows what Graham claimed it did.

Graham, I am inclined to take exception to this.
Hugh. You should take exception because what you say above is incorrect. However I don't take exception to it but it does show you haven't quite read things properly.

1) I claimed knowledge from one teacher. Others put 2 and 2 together taking lineage of that teacher into account, not me. I specifically stated I don't know where he learned it.

2) As I said others equated with Tohei, their problem not mine. I equated shin shin toitsu as explained by the teacher, not Toheis art but sen no sen or as he said tying of minds. This I pointed out, once again I do the same.

3) Japanese of that generation in martial arts have knowledge of sword. Yet to find one that doesn't. No justification. Common sense. Maybe most Americans in the relevant states have knowledge of guns.

4) None were false, in fact I've just corrected you on those points so that means what you say is false. I prefer to say mistaken for my intention isn't to try to disgrace you.

5) The videos I found, and enjoyed, I said were of Sugano and Yamada using bokken. Since then I found the Sugano part is correct but the yamada part is incorrect and that the other was not him. This I stated, so I have already corrected that thank you.

If you read the thread properly you will find Yamada did know and use the bokken. The only thing is who emphasised it and who didn't, who used it regularly and who hardly ever. Then even more to the point, who used tsuba, who didn't and when it is used and when it isn't and opinions on the whys and wherefores.

My offerings are my experience and my views on the subject.

Fudoshin.

Regards.G.

Alas the stories are facts. Quaint reply though.

You see also that you changing facts could be the problem, maybe you're unaware of your own action. I didn't relate it to Ki Society teachings thank you very much. Did I mention Ki society? No. Did I say exactly where he learned the sword and who from? No. So the assumptions are yours.

Now if you equate what I said with the Ki Society then I would assume you are talking about me saying what he said about shin shin toitsu. Now in brackets I explained how he meant by this what you would call sen no sen etc. Now his description of shin shin toitsu as a sen no sen was 'the tying of minds'

Now, the term and his use of it came from Tohei but his seeing how it applied to his sword work may or may not.

I report facts thank you. That's how he spoke yet strange how none of us leapt to the conclusion that he must have learned the sword from Tohei or even Noro. We don't know who else he trained with and consider it nosey to pry. I relate only what he told us. All else is private until offered.
G.

I had asked you the following:

It would be great if your teacher, Mike Muspratt Sensei, could speak for himself here. What little I could find on him was related to you saying that your teacher was a student of Noro Sensei and Tohei Sensei. In this post you talk about your teacher's understanding of Shin Shin Toitsu (Ki Society). Maybe, you could ask your teacher to answer these questions, or encouraged him to post directly:

1) Ken Williams Sensei was the founder of Ki Society in England. What relationship did your teacher have with Williams Sensei?
2) Tohei Sensei spent little real time teaching in England. How many face-to-face hours did your teacher have with Tohei Sensei? (This is particularly pertinent since you claim that he was a student of Tohei Sensei). Was he a direct student of Tohei Sensei, or a student in that organization?
3) Tohei Sensei was never a student of any formal school of swordsmanship. How is that you can claim that your teacher had the understandings derived from Tohei Sensei regarding the relationship between the sword and Aikido? Does your teacher have any knowledge of what experiences Tohei Sensei had with any training in schools of swordsmanship? If so, please explain?

Now I would like to add the following information:

1) Henry Ellis Sensei: Directly informed me and Graham that Mike Muspratt Sensei NEVER trained at The Hut.

2) Williams Sensei: Mike Muspratt had a club in Watford and for a short time was affiliated to our Association about 40 years ago. Sensei cannot remember Mike being a member of the Hut when he was teaching, but this is a long time ago.
He was deffinately not a student of Tohei Sensei and as far as he knows not Noro Sensei either.
He does find it strange that people wish to harp back to over 40 years ago.

Best wishes,
M.Williams

Graham:

It could very well be that your teacher has not been upfront with you for all we know. You have made claims regarding your knowledge coming from your teacher, from Tohei Sensei and Noro Sensei. Your own words are listed above which are not all that consistent and/or clear. Clearing that confusion up could help us better understand where you are coming from. Of course, if you would like to provide us with any information regarding the sword training that you allude to, that could be of assistance as well.

I look forward to your reply.

Marc Abrams

lbb
03-05-2012, 03:49 PM
Marc, really, what is the point? What do you hope to accomplish? You're not going to change Graham's mind about anything, and anyone else who agrees with where you're going, is already there. Isn't this a waste of time?

Marc Abrams
03-05-2012, 04:18 PM
Marc, really, what is the point? What do you hope to accomplish? You're not going to change Graham's mind about anything, and anyone else who agrees with where you're going, is already there. Isn't this a waste of time?

Mary:

Who said anything about changing anybody's mind. I am simply following up on some questions that have arisen over the course of time. I do not have any destination or purpose in mind, other than to get some facts answered. Understanding history is important in placing things in context. Things said by various sources do not add up. Clarifying this information can provide me with some useful information.

Graham holds his teacher in high respect, which is certainly a good thing. Graham is doing the best he can to run with what his teacher provided him with. I frankly think that Graham became untethered too soon from a teacher, but that is neither here nor there. Graham has some unique and idiosyncratic ideas that I would genuinely like to understand better. I do not agree with a lot of what he says, but I am interested none the less, in placing them within some understandable context.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Steven
03-05-2012, 04:35 PM
Marc, really, what is the point? What do you hope to accomplish? You're not going to change Graham's mind about anything, and anyone else who agrees with where you're going, is already there. Isn't this a waste of time?

I agree. Give it a rest already. Turn off your computer and spend the time in your dojo teaching and practicing since you appear to have so much extra time. Let the obsession with Graham go already.

graham christian
03-05-2012, 04:48 PM
You must really think, well actually I don't know what you think.

Why post a Yamada exchange? I already cleared that up, at the time. A statement havibg been self corrected is hardly an example of a lie.

Then it turns out that he had trained with bokken and taught such anyway. Excuse me if I say the only impression I get from you is that of a vulture waiting for a mistake to pounce on. That's the impression I get May sound rude but as I have seen others mention many things and people and also say things mistakenly I haven't seen them addressed by you in the same manner.

Bottom line, you have a bug to bear with me, that's all.

I don't even know what you are actually asking for, what you 'specifically' want to know. I'm not even sure you do.

Obviously to me you are out to prove something, unless I'm mistaken, but if so could you tell me what it is? I will separate the next bit and answer in another post.

Curiously, G.

Gary David
03-05-2012, 04:55 PM
Marc, really, what is the point? What do you hope to accomplish? You're not going to change Graham's mind about anything, and anyone else who agrees with where you're going, is already there. Isn't this a waste of time?

I agree. Give it a rest already. Turn off your computer and spend the time in your dojo teaching and practicing since you appear to have so much extra time. Let the obsession with Graham go already.

I think I understand the context in which Marc approached this and the purpose........I agree that it is likely that there is little added benefit in continuing this effort past what may have been accomplished already.

Gary

Marc Abrams
03-05-2012, 04:56 PM
You must really think, well actually I don't know what you think.

Why post a Yamada exchange? I already cleared that up, at the time. A statement havibg been self corrected is hardly an example of a lie.

Then it turns out that he had trained with bokken and taught such anyway. Excuse me if I say the only impression I get from you is that of a vulture waiting for a mistake to pounce on. That's the impression I get May sound rude but as I have seen others mention many things and people and also say things mistakenly I haven't seen them addressed by you in the same manner.

Bottom line, you have a bug to bear with me, that's all.

I don't even know what you are actually asking for, what you 'specifically' want to know. I'm not even sure you do.

Obviously to me you are out to prove something, unless I'm mistaken, but if so could you tell me what it is? I will separate the next bit and answer in another post.

Curiously, G.

Here are the questions again:

It would be great if your teacher, Mike Muspratt Sensei, could speak for himself here. What little I could find on him was related to you saying that your teacher was a student of Noro Sensei and Tohei Sensei. In this post you talk about your teacher's understanding of Shin Shin Toitsu (Ki Society). Maybe, you could ask your teacher to answer these questions, or encouraged him to post directly:

1) Ken Williams Sensei was the founder of Ki Society in England. What relationship did your teacher have with Williams Sensei?
2) Tohei Sensei spent little real time teaching in England. How many face-to-face hours did your teacher have with Tohei Sensei? (This is particularly pertinent since you claim that he was a student of Tohei Sensei). Was he a direct student of Tohei Sensei, or a student in that organization?
3) Tohei Sensei was never a student of any formal school of swordsmanship. How is that you can claim that your teacher had the understandings derived from Tohei Sensei regarding the relationship between the sword and Aikido? Does your teacher have any knowledge of what experiences Tohei Sensei had with any training in schools of swordsmanship? If so, please explain?

I also added:

Whether or not he actually was a direct student of Noro Sensei.

Of course, if you would like to provide us with any information regarding the sword training that you allude to, that could be of assistance as well.

I am simply asking for some questions to be answered- nothing to be proven on my part. Any answers that you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

graham christian
03-05-2012, 04:59 PM
With regards to you contacting, yes contacting, Sensei Williams and Sensei Ellis, I find almost beyond belief.

I think if you read the response from Sensei Ellis you will find he is answering out of politeness and yet infers a distaste to your request.

The lengths you have gone to, the effort, intrigues me. The fact that those two Senseis probably could do without your uninvited enquiries and disturbance probably never crossed your mind.

Amazing I think.

Did we meet in some past life?

Still curiously.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-05-2012, 05:16 PM
Stop the presses, a martial arts instructor padded his resume!!!

graham christian
03-05-2012, 05:19 PM
Here are the questions again:

It would be great if your teacher, Mike Muspratt Sensei, could speak for himself here. What little I could find on him was related to you saying that your teacher was a student of Noro Sensei and Tohei Sensei. In this post you talk about your teacher's understanding of Shin Shin Toitsu (Ki Society). Maybe, you could ask your teacher to answer these questions, or encouraged him to post directly:

1) Ken Williams Sensei was the founder of Ki Society in England. What relationship did your teacher have with Williams Sensei?
2) Tohei Sensei spent little real time teaching in England. How many face-to-face hours did your teacher have with Tohei Sensei? (This is particularly pertinent since you claim that he was a student of Tohei Sensei). Was he a direct student of Tohei Sensei, or a student in that organization?
3) Tohei Sensei was never a student of any formal school of swordsmanship. How is that you can claim that your teacher had the understandings derived from Tohei Sensei regarding the relationship between the sword and Aikido? Does your teacher have any knowledge of what experiences Tohei Sensei had with any training in schools of swordsmanship? If so, please explain?

I also added:

Whether or not he actually was a direct student of Noro Sensei.

Of course, if you would like to provide us with any information regarding the sword training that you allude to, that could be of assistance as well.

I am simply asking for some questions to be answered- nothing to be proven on my part. Any answers that you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Let's get something straight first. Because you ask doesn't mean I have to answer if I think it's none of yours or anyone elses business.

Secondly, knowing, much like Sensei Williams and some others they removed themselves from the politics in Aikido and keep away from what you call interest and they would call of no importance, it is strange that you would ask me to do so, in fact very presumptive.

Now, with regards to your questions:

1) Don't know. (or care believe it or not)

2) Irrelevant. Your twist or significance.

3) Your misinterpretation so no answer. I answered in the no tsuba thread and yet you persist with your 'prefered' interpretation.

Yes he was a direct student of Noro Sensei.

G.

Marc Abrams
03-05-2012, 05:30 PM
With regards to you contacting, yes contacting, Sensei Williams and Sensei Ellis, I find almost beyond belief.

I think if you read the response from Sensei Ellis you will find he is answering out of politeness and yet infers a distaste to your request.

The lengths you have gone to, the effort, intrigues me. The fact that those two Senseis probably could do without your uninvited enquiries and disturbance probably never crossed your mind.

Amazing I think.

Did we meet in some past life?

Still curiously.G.

Graham:

Actually, Ellis Sensei contacted me on his own regarding another issue and provided me with that information unsolicited. We had a nice communication, not our first, and hopefully not our last. Sorry that your assumption was not correct.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams
03-05-2012, 05:35 PM
Stop the presses, a martial arts instructor padded his resume!!!

Demetrio:

Who really knows? Aikikai tried writing Tohei Sensei out of their history... Who knows where the truth lurks. I am currently involved in a project regarding Tohei Sensei's history. His relationship with weapons training is one of the areas that we are trying to get some harder facts on. Outside of Graham's paranoia regarding my questions in regards to that, an honest answer from his teacher could help provide some clues to some things.

Regarding Noro Sensei, who knows.... Don't know enough about him but am trying to research some things. We do know that Graham's teacher alleges to be a direct student and Williams Sensei said that he did not remember that to be the case.

Some people get some touchy regarding history.......

marc abrams

Gorgeous George
03-05-2012, 05:37 PM
I'd love to see this thread started here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10

They'd tear him to shreds - and there wouldn't be a benevolent administrator to protect his lies, and delusions.

Mark Freeman
03-05-2012, 05:38 PM
2) Williams Sensei: Mike Muspratt had a club in Watford and for a short time was affiliated to our Association about 40 years ago. Sensei cannot remember Mike being a member of the Hut when he was teaching, but this is a long time ago.
He was deffinately not a student of Tohei Sensei and as far as he knows not Noro Sensei either.
He does find it strange that people wish to harp back to over 40 years ago.Best wishes,
M.Williams



Hi Marc,

that is by far the longest series of selected quotes I have read, in support of your attempt to 'win' the point against Graham.

I can imagine my teachers reaction to being asked about someone who may have trained with him over 40 years ago. In his 56 years of aikido, many have learnt from him, and many have left to start their own organisations. Some have affilliated with other larger organisations and some stay independent and grow from there. There may well be grade inflation and padding of training histories going on at this point, it's not completely unheard of in the martials arts world, now is it? I am not concerned by this, as my teacher is not bothered by this. He may have been in the past, but at 80 he is only interested in living now. They were not at his level when they left, so he keeps himself to himself and only teaches those who are there to learn what he has to offer. As a lifelong student of budo, he will certainly find it strange, that people want to harp back so far in the past. I can imagine him shaking his head, and wondering if they don't have something better to do with their time.

Much of what he teaches is very similar in words to those used by Graham, non dissention, non resistance, the foolishness of the fighting mind etc. Using this language does not make him less martially effective, it just deepens the understanding of how he does his aikido. His focus for many years has been applying aikido to daily life, not the 'martial' side of the training as espoused by many. He knows that many in the world of aikido do not 'get it', but is resigned to that fact that many never will.

You may well back Graham into a corner and get him to say what you need to hear, to feel vindicated. Then what? Graham will continue to be himself, he may learn something from it, he may not. You may learn something, you may not. Either way, you are in danger of coming across as a man, a little bit possessed.

You read my account of my meeting with Graham, so no need to repeat myself. If I practice with someone, I feel their aikido, not that of their teacher or their teacher's teacher.

This thread highlights the competitiveness debated in another thread. "I am right, you are wrong and I'll prove it." which is where a few too many discussions end up.

Now, Graham is definitely not Dan, but I have seen plenty of questions thrown Dan's way that show disbelief in history and skill level. The only way to know for yourself, is to touch hands with both, history is less important than hands on in the moment. I respect Graham for being Graham, and knowing that he is faithfully teaching what he has learnt as aikido. I respect Dan for teaching the superb set of skills that he has, to us in the aikido world, he is a game-changer, if ever I met one. I respect you for your quest for clarity in all of this. I look forward to hands on time with you in the US before long.

I hope this is all resolved quite quickly, and that it doesn't get messy.

regards,

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo
03-05-2012, 05:53 PM
Demetrio:

Who really knows? Aikikai tried writing Tohei Sensei out of their history... Who knows where the truth lurks. I am currently involved in a project regarding Tohei Sensei's history. His relationship with weapons training is one of the areas that we are trying to get some harder facts on. Outside of Graham's paranoia regarding my questions in regards to that, an honest answer from his teacher could help provide some clues to some things.

Regarding Noro Sensei, who knows.... Don't know enough about him but am trying to research some things. We do know that Graham's teacher alleges to be a direct student and Williams Sensei said that he did not remember that to be the case.

Some people get some touchy regarding history.......

marc abrams

If you're interested in history, asking Graham won't take you anywhere.

David Orange
03-05-2012, 06:21 PM
With regards to you contacting, yes contacting, Sensei Williams and Sensei Ellis, I find almost beyond belief.

I think if you read the response from Sensei Ellis you will find he is answering out of politeness and yet infers a distaste to your request.

The lengths you have gone to, the effort, intrigues me. The fact that those two Senseis probably could do without your uninvited enquiries and disturbance probably never crossed your mind.

Amazing I think.

Did we meet in some past life?

Still curiously.G.

Graham,

I don't know about Ken Williams, but Henry Ellis has proactively contacted me on these matters and I'm sure he's talked with others about them as well.

I never got the impression that he finds these questions distasteful.

What he finds distasteful is people trying to glom onto the rightfully great reputation of the Hut dojo and the early history of aikido in UK.

He's quite proactive about clearing up that record and he's been very upfront with you about a number of these things as well. I think he would advise you not to beg off on account of his feelings.

The lengths you have gone to, the effort, intrigues me.

Well, you put forth a tremendous effort to promote your "thing," here, yourself, and as we go along (and as Marc has documented above), we find that your words and timelines and histories and sources shift and blend and disappear and reappear.

But Marc has documented your various positions very thoroughly above, I think, simply to pin down exactly what your true lineage is--not for the sake of lineage but for the sake of the level and quality of teaching of aikido in the world.

And I was very interested in one particular line that I think explains much of what went wrong with aikido throughout the world:

I found that those from yoshinkan who came to our dojo did it differently and that was my first awareness of differences.

On asking my teacher he explained it to us as a matter of spiritual discipline versus physical only. His view was that those who didn't understand the spiritual/philosophical went one direction and those who did went another.

And that sadly misguided idea has corrupted aikido practice and it has corrupted the spirituality of aikido practice around the world.

If you had at least gotten that from a Japanese uchi deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, it would have some weight. But you've been pushing that very idea as the core of the difference (yea, the superiority) of your aikido and now we find that it comes from a Westerner who seems to have had little or no experience with either Tohei or Noro and whose claims to have been a member of the old Hut dojo are proven unfounded.

These were not views shared by Minoru Mochizuki, Gozo Shioda, Rinjiro Shirata, Morihiro Saito or any of the other pillars of aikido under Morihei Ueshiba.

I mean, really, if Morihei could have gone back to his peak of power and ability, the height of his ability to display his budo of love, who would he have wanted to be training with? Mochizuki, Shioda, Shirata, Saito and their peers or people like yourself, Mike Muspratt, Jack Poole, et al?

The quote above simply proves how deeply Morihei's spirituality was misunderstood and misrepresented by people who simply didn't want to put in the sacrifice and run the risks of the kind of training available with the likes of Kenshiro Abbe and Tadashi Abe (whom I should have mentioned with the greats listed above).

To think that the Japanese (and Ueshiba's) concept of spirituality disregarded the physical is simply misguided and thinking that "the split" was between those who understood spirituality and those who were "physical only" is absurd. The sadness of it is how much damage that idea has done to aikido practice around the world.

David

David Orange
03-05-2012, 06:28 PM
Now, Graham is definitely not Dan, but I have seen plenty of questions thrown Dan's way that show disbelief in history and skill level. The only way to know for yourself, is to touch hands with both, history is less important than hands on in the moment. I respect Graham for being Graham, and knowing that he is faithfully teaching what he has learnt as aikido. I respect Dan for teaching the superb set of skills that he has, to us in the aikido world, he is a game-changer, if ever I met one. I respect you for your quest for clarity in all of this. I look forward to hands on time with you in the US before long.

I hope this is all resolved quite quickly, and that it doesn't get messy.


Thanks for your diplomatic discretion, Mark.

Cheers.

David

graham christian
03-05-2012, 06:36 PM
Now Marc.
I will assume that all your 'takes' are based on you being very literal rather than having some ulterior motive.

Doing so I will address what looks to me like you being 'clever' and assume it is you not understanding.

1) SWORD:a) My teacher was very good with it. I have stated more than once I don't know where he learned it. So please digest that information )
b) He taught that the 'secret' of it was shin shin toitsu. I went to pains to point out what he meant by that. He meant the tying of minds (sen no sen) as he put it. That does not equal he learned it from Tohei I have said that too so please digest that too.

2) On my introduction I put my lineage of Aikido. Having trained with my Teacher for 15 years and hearing how Noro said this and did that, with him, and how Tohei said and did this and that and taught him this and that then it is safe to assume therefore they would be called Teachers.

Now at that time in Aikido history students were part of the riplle effect of the Tohei 'split' or even the differences of opinion as to which methods were better. Sensei Williams himself has stated how Tohei made him reconsider his whole view on Aikido. No different to Mike. Thus taught.

Now, as to where and how long I don't know and once again don't care.

However, what I do know is a) He taught the said principles of Tohei.
b) Met him and trained with him and thus was taught by him.
c) Know someone else who was there with him as well, with Tohei, on one occasion. This person was also a student of Mikes. This person now runs his own school. So pure mathematics says that if in 1978 he was teaching Aikido and with at least one of his students training with Tohei that he was known and able and already Shodan.

3) Both Sensei Williams and Sensei Ellis recall knowing about his Watford Dojo.

Now obviously he didn't learn from a book back then. Obviously he must have been taught to be at Toheis summer camp as a teacher with student(s).

I believe Sensei Foster was mentioned once in regards to the Watford dojo.

So, in conclusion, my relating my experiences with Mike actually has nothing to do with you're trying to piece together some map of what, where , when regarding his history. If you or your fellow interested compatriots feel a need to know then it is purely up to him. So you may be honored or lucky to find out or you may not.

Meanwhile you could actually learn some bits through things he has related to me and I have mentioned in my posts.

The only thing that makes me interested is the fact that now I have read many accounts of back in those times so would have a whole new bunch of questions for him. Something I or anyone would not have as a student, nor be interested in either. But still, to me it's minor, of very little import personally.

So as and when I see him or my friend sees him is of no rush to me for even now I feel it's a bit intrusive to go and do so just for curiosities sake. It feels nosey.

I could go out of my way to get in contact with some who also were taught by him but feel no need.

The one thing you don't seem to get is that he, like some others, disconnected from the 'outer Aikido world' and wanted nothing to do with them. Even now I have it on good authority that Sensei Williams teaches basically from the viewpoint of my way or the highway and with that is not too fussed about what others think.

I'm not sure you either understand fully that view or indeed respect it. It's like a sign which reads 'Do Not Disturb'

Therefore in my view you are lucky to know what little you do.

Peace.G.

graham christian
03-05-2012, 07:04 PM
Graham,

I don't know about Ken Williams, but Henry Ellis has proactively contacted me on these matters and I'm sure he's talked with others about them as well.

I never got the impression that he finds these questions distasteful.

What he finds distasteful is people trying to glom onto the rightfully great reputation of the Hut dojo and the early history of aikido in UK.

He's quite proactive about clearing up that record and he's been very upfront with you about a number of these things as well. I think he would advise you not to beg off on account of his feelings.

Well, you put forth a tremendous effort to promote your "thing," here, yourself, and as we go along (and as Marc has documented above), we find that your words and timelines and histories and sources shift and blend and disappear and reappear.

But Marc has documented your various positions very thoroughly above, I think, simply to pin down exactly what your true lineage is--not for the sake of lineage but for the sake of the level and quality of teaching of aikido in the world.

And I was very interested in one particular line that I think explains much of what went wrong with aikido throughout the world:

And that sadly misguided idea has corrupted aikido practice and it has corrupted the spirituality of aikido practice around the world.

If you had at least gotten that from a Japanese uchi deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, it would have some weight. But you've been pushing that very idea as the core of the difference (yea, the superiority) of your aikido and now we find that it comes from a Westerner who seems to have had little or no experience with either Tohei or Noro and whose claims to have been a member of the old Hut dojo are proven unfounded.

These were not views shared by Minoru Mochizuki, Gozo Shioda, Rinjiro Shirata, Morihiro Saito or any of the other pillars of aikido under Morihei Ueshiba.

I mean, really, if Morihei could have gone back to his peak of power and ability, the height of his ability to display his budo of love, who would he have wanted to be training with? Mochizuki, Shioda, Shirata, Saito and their peers or people like yourself, Mike Muspratt, Jack Poole, et al?

The quote above simply proves how deeply Morihei's spirituality was misunderstood and misrepresented by people who simply didn't want to put in the sacrifice and run the risks of the kind of training available with the likes of Kenshiro Abbe and Tadashi Abe (whom I should have mentioned with the greats listed above).

To think that the Japanese (and Ueshiba's) concept of spirituality disregarded the physical is simply misguided and thinking that "the split" was between those who understood spirituality and those who were "physical only" is absurd. The sadness of it is how much damage that idea has done to aikido practice around the world.

David

You can think what you want. Trying to use another, Henry Ellis as your reason is a bit ludicrous.

My only mention of the hut was as some place Mike had mentioned and also the fact that Noro was his Teacher about which others said he only taught at the hut, not me. I don't care if he was taught in a barn in the middle of nowhere.

Mike got on very well with said Yoshinkan people thank you very much. They got on very well with him too. They all highly respected him and knew him as teaching in such a way and highly respected that too. He had no problem showing them anything either so they knew about effectiveness. He was an honored guest of the then teacher for the seminar held in Watford for Gozo Shioda at which I was honored to be the one he took with him. So I am quite aware of the respect others there had for him thank you.

My experiences versus your thoughts, no competition.

Nice to see you think you can speak on behalf of such illustrious people though.

Peace.G.

lbb
03-05-2012, 07:19 PM
Mary:

Who said anything about changing anybody's mind. I am simply following up on some questions that have arisen over the course of time. I do not have any destination or purpose in mind, other than to get some facts answered.

Do you really think you're going to get the answers you're after?

And is that really the only thing you're trying to accomplish here?

Is there really a question in your mind about what the answers to the questions are?

David Orange
03-05-2012, 07:43 PM
You can think what you want. Trying to use another, Henry Ellis as your reason is a bit ludicrous.

If T-Rex Sensei goes out of his way to tell me about something and you say it's rude to ask him about that subject...then maybe the ludicrousity is not mine.

My only mention of the hut was as some place Mike had mentioned and also the fact that Noro was his Teacher about which others said he only taught at the hut, not me. I don't care if he was taught in a barn in the middle of nowhere.

Well, see....

Mike got on very well with said Yoshinkan people thank you very much. They got on very well with him too. They all highly respected him and knew him as teaching in such a way and highly respected that too. He had no problem showing them anything either so they knew about effectiveness. He was an honored guest of the then teacher for the seminar held in Watford for Gozo Shioda at which I was honored to be the one he took with him. So I am quite aware of the respect others there had for him thank you.

So you and your teacher were on the mat with Gozo Shioda?

My experiences versus your thoughts, no competition.

Not sure about that, either, Graham. You just stated it as "versus" which shows that you put the "comparison" into terms of "competition". So the competition is in you. So since you played he "I was there with Shioda" card, are you saying your "experiences" include training with Gozo Shioda? Or were you in some kind of observer capacity?

If you and your teacher were there as observers...and didn't get on the mat with Gozo Shioda when he was in town....again...I have to say....

Nice to see you think you can speak on behalf of such illustrious people though.

I guess it comes from having been uchi deshi to one of them who was senior to all the others I mentioned. His attitudes rubbed off pretty strongly on me, often prodding me to speak up as he would have done when something smells like aged sashimi.

And I am not saying that your teacher stinks, but the more you post about it, the more the smell rises. You speak innocently enough, but people who know find it rather strange and when they mention it, you respond with passive aggression and evasion. And that stirs up the stink and adds to it as you post more videos and comments.

I'm sure you mean well, Graham, but the fact is, you put up a lot of representations of yourself and aikido, you made a lot of claims about Japanese sword and spirituality, but your responses have on the whole been very passive aggressive and evasive. And more of it seems to be coming out as we look more carefully at the foundations of your claims.

I don't view this as an argument, by the way. I view it like the night I was leaving a coffee shop and my path was blocked by some people coming in, so I took a seat in the booth to my left. At the same instant, this huge guy behind the incoming group of people took a seat in the opposite side of the booth, and there we were face to face. So we nodded and started talking and he told me that he was a master of karate. I view our exchanges here as very similar to that night, when we went to the gym and compared arts. We wound up walking the railroad tracks at sunrise and he introduced me to his cousin as "my teacher". Obviously, I'm not your teacher but somehow, this all reminds me of the conversation I had with that guy.

Best to you.

David

graham christian
03-05-2012, 07:51 PM
Do you really think you're going to get the answers you're after?

And is that really the only thing you're trying to accomplish here?

Is there really a question in your mind about what the answers to the questions are?

Mary.
I do believe it is as simple as he wants. An attitude of I want or else. For me this is all there is to it. You must do this or else.

Thats the tone. That's also the mistake.

Peace.G.

graham christian
03-05-2012, 08:10 PM
If T-Rex Sensei goes out of his way to tell me about something and you say it's rude to ask him about that subject...then maybe the ludicrousity is not mine.

Well, see....

So you and your teacher were on the mat with Gozo Shioda?

Not sure about that, either, Graham. You just stated it as "versus" which shows that you put the "comparison" into terms of "competition". So the competition is in you. So since you played he "I was there with Shioda" card, are you saying your "experiences" include training with Gozo Shioda? Or were you in some kind of observer capacity?

If you and your teacher were there as observers...and didn't get on the mat with Gozo Shioda when he was in town....again...I have to say....

I guess it comes from having been uchi deshi to one of them who was senior to all the others I mentioned. His attitudes rubbed off pretty strongly on me, often prodding me to speak up as he would have done when something smells like aged sashimi.

And I am not saying that your teacher stinks, but the more you post about it, the more the smell rises. You speak innocently enough, but people who know find it rather strange and when they mention it, you respond with passive aggression and evasion. And that stirs up the stink and adds to it as you post more videos and comments.

I'm sure you mean well, Graham, but the fact is, you put up a lot of representations of yourself and aikido, you made a lot of claims about Japanese sword and spirituality, but your responses have on the whole been very passive aggressive and evasive. And more of it seems to be coming out as we look more carefully at the foundations of your claims.

I don't view this as an argument, by the way. I view it like the night I was leaving a coffee shop and my path was blocked by some people coming in, so I took a seat in the booth to my left. At the same instant, this huge guy behind the incoming group of people took a seat in the opposite side of the booth, and there we were face to face. So we nodded and started talking and he told me that he was a master of karate. I view our exchanges here as very similar to that night, when we went to the gym and compared arts. We wound up walking the railroad tracks at sunrise and he introduced me to his cousin as "my teacher". Obviously, I'm not your teacher but somehow, this all reminds me of the conversation I had with that guy.

Best to you.

David

As I said, your thoughts versus my experience. No competition. It's your thoughts that are in competition yet there is none. Your thoughts may be against what I say but they are against experience and knowing. Therefore no competition.

Ludicrous to use said teacher to try and make a point against me, not anything to do with him giving you his memories.

I don't think you realize either what passive aggression is. Statements of more you say the smell rises is a fine example of such. There have been many such statements from you and others and they always make me laugh for those statements of themselves are passive aggression.

Maybe your not understanding you call passive aggression, who knows but I assure you I am not evasive. If I don't know I don't know and if you don't believe an answer then it's your problem not my evasion.

If I remind you of the person in your story then good for you. At least that tells me how you see me.

It's funny to me at least.

Peace.G.

Marc Abrams
03-05-2012, 08:14 PM
Dear folks:

Despite my difference of opinions with Graham, the reason for me asking the questions that I did had precious little to do with Graham. I frankly concur with Kevin Levitt's perceptions and am more concerned about noobies buying any of that stuff and expect to be serious, competent martial artists. Sometimes you have to shake a tree in order to get the fruit to fall. I spelled out the basic reasons as to why I was seeking that information. Mark's response simply reinforced what I had suspected, but I needed to shake the tree. In other words folks, it had nothing to do with scoring points or trying to make Graham look any more "unusual" than he already does. The simple fact that Graham is still clueless as to what I was looking for, says it all. The historical reasons are likely to come out in one-to-two years when the project is hopefully concluded.

As to the issue of padding ones resume (that somebody other than myself raised), who really knows. Graham's own talk about knowing what Tohei Sensei did and said, saying that he could do it well speaks for itself to anybody who were direct students of Tohei Sensei or trained with his close students. His claims regarding his depth of knowledge regarding Ki Society principles are viewed in the same light. Not knowing enough about Noro Sensei, I cannot comment on those claims.

If people want to make more of this than what it was, feel free. The simple fact was that Graham accused me of twisting his words. I listed his words simply as he said them. He simply is incapable of pointing out how I allegedly twisted his own words. Patterns speak volumes. I cared little about the obvious, sought what I was looking for, found it and am more than happy to move on.

Marc Abrams

graham christian
03-05-2012, 09:34 PM
Dear folks:

Despite my difference of opinions with Graham, the reason for me asking the questions that I did had precious little to do with Graham. I frankly concur with Kevin Levitt's perceptions and am more concerned about noobies buying any of that stuff and expect to be serious, competent martial artists. Sometimes you have to shake a tree in order to get the fruit to fall. I spelled out the basic reasons as to why I was seeking that information. Mark's response simply reinforced what I had suspected, but I needed to shake the tree. In other words folks, it had nothing to do with scoring points or trying to make Graham look any more "unusual" than he already does. The simple fact that Graham is still clueless as to what I was looking for, says it all. The historical reasons are likely to come out in one-to-two years when the project is hopefully concluded.

As to the issue of padding ones resume (that somebody other than myself raised), who really knows. Graham's own talk about knowing what Tohei Sensei did and said, saying that he could do it well speaks for itself to anybody who were direct students of Tohei Sensei or trained with his close students. His claims regarding his depth of knowledge regarding Ki Society principles are viewed in the same light. Not knowing enough about Noro Sensei, I cannot comment on those claims.

If people want to make more of this than what it was, feel free. The simple fact was that Graham accused me of twisting his words. I listed his words simply as he said them. He simply is incapable of pointing out how I allegedly twisted his own words. Patterns speak volumes. I cared little about the obvious, sought what I was looking for, found it and am more than happy to move on.

Marc Abrams

Hold on a minute there. You don't get off that lightly.

*You failed to mention I had already cleared up the Yamada video mistake.

* You failed to mention I had already explained what the use of shin shin toitsu was and thus not meaning he learned the sword from Tohei.

* You failed to mention I said I didn't know where he learned the sword. etc.

Why did you do so? Why paint a false picture? This my friend is twisting.

You still now fail to say it is and was about me. So 'precious little to do with Graham' is not the case.

As far as the principles layed out by Tohei go then yes I still say I can demonstrate them and indeed explain them far better than most on here who have tried. Therefore my knowledge is deep. The threads on such in the spiritual forum demonstrate such too. As I recall many challenged my views then and 'gregstec' even said he had experience and asked many what ifs based on them and I answered all questions quite comfortably thank you. It showed me how little many knew on that side of Aikido. Even though they think they do.

Again if I remember correctly, Mark interjected on the point of leading the mind and the difference between leading Ki to point out what I was saying was actually true. Also, as most everyone stated they knew and thus kept referring to the mind and body coordination principles as his Aikido I had to point out once again this was false. His Aikido principles are different to those, and in fact he has many sets of principles for many things. Now even Mary Eastman was surprised to learn that and said she would look it up.

So once again your portrayal is false. Your portrayal is about me.

Shin shin toitsu as a state you still don't even seem to understand and can only equate it with an organization. It is not my knowledge on the principles that is lacking my friend.

This also reminds me of something. I showed Mark at our meeting before we started an old training sheet from Mike with all the old terminology and steps and tests and principles on. Something I almost guarantee you have never seen. Purely for orientation purposes so that he could see how we originally trained.

We actually laughed at how then there were two sides to the training. One Aikido and the other mind and body unification. Two sides. Both given equal import and both to be passed equally in order to pass the levels, One side spiritual, all to do with Principles of Ki only and one to do with practice and effectiveness.

Thus it is I my friend who chuckle to think how little you 'modern' folk know about Toheis Aikido. (the ones who think they do yet by what they say to me don't)

Being well versed in it and capable and thus in honor of Tohei I am only too glad to see that most at least are now aware and accept how capable and effective he was at least. At least my efforts led to more people realizing that reality.

He used those principles and with them had no problem with handling others of that time or any other time for that matter.

So no, I don't think you have learned much at all about me but I have learned much about you.

I too can now put this to rest for I do understand where you are coming from. A place of not knowing and not understanding me. I am willing to leave you there too. I have no obligation to prove anything to you.

I agree with but one thing, what I say does speak volumes. Best you hold on to that one.

Peace.G.

David Orange
03-05-2012, 09:55 PM
As I said, your thoughts versus my experience. No competition. It's your thoughts that are in competition yet there is none. Your thoughts may be against what I say but they are against experience and knowing. Therefore no competition.

I'm not competing with you Graham, and my thoughts are not "against" your thoughts. They're simply "with" the principles of reality. I'm just comparing what you say with several well established reference points in martial arts and in your own statements.

If you say "The sun rises in the West," and I point out that every other source on earth says it rises in the East, does that mean I'm competing with you?

You are the one who phrased it as competition because the competition is in your mind. You just compete passive-aggressively and you should acknowledge that to yourself.

Ludicrous to use said teacher to try and make a point against me, not anything to do with him giving you his memories.

It's just another comparison in response to your first referencing that teacher as supporting your claims when he himself said he didn't support those claims. And also, a response to your saying it's rude to ask him certain things when he himself goes around talking about those things and telling us that those things are important to him. Ludicrous is using a man like that to try to support your story and saying it's rude to ask him about things he avidly discusses.

QUOTE=Graham Christian;304749]I don't think you realize either what passive aggression is. Statements of more you say the smell rises is a fine example of such. There have been many such statements from you and others and they always make me laugh for those statements of themselves are passive aggression.[/quote]

No, Graham. There's nothing passive about what I said. And I'm not saying it to be aggressive, either, but to be assertive. I'm saying that the metaphorical sun rises in the west for you (as compared to people like the aikido pillars I described above) because you take your information from people who never trained with their like. Why do you think your teacher understood Ueshiba and his spirituality better than the kinds of people Ueshiba really liked to hang out with?

Or did you actually train with Shioda?

If I remind you of the person in your story then good for you. At least that tells me how you see me.

No, I don't see you like I saw that guy. I didn't fight with him or argue with him any more than I "fight" with you. I just discussed things with him and understood what he was really about. He was a lot bigger and appeared much stronger than me, but he didn't really know a thing about karate. I engaged with him and convinced him and every time I saw him, he considered me a friend. I look back on our few meetings with fondness.

Actually, you also remind me of someone else I met near the same time, but again, I'm not saying I think you're "like" him. He just happens to be the only other martial artist I ever recall wearing a hat in practice (excluding arts where turbans or small caps are the norm, such as I believe is the case in arts like silat). But this guy was teaching a Japanese traditional art, where hats are not normally worn. This guy wore a "yachting" cap that said "Captain" on the front. He wore this with a white dogi and black belt. On the front of his jacket, there was a patch saying "Instructor." On the back of his jacket was the image of a large coiled cobra and above that was the word KOBAR.

We called him KO-bar because of the back of his gi.

He taught some kind of supposed karate on the quadrangle of the university and apparently didn't have an official class. One day I stopped nearby and watched for a few minutes. I asked him, "What does Kobar mean?" He said, "It's KO-ber, like the snake." The deadly, poisonous kober snake.

He once went to the judo class and asked to do randori with one of the black belts. I'm not sure if he called it randori or if he just asked to "try judo" or whatever, but when they started, he tried to knee the other guy in the groin. I think he got dumped several times and decided it wasn't for him.

Now, again, I don't see you as being "like" that guy, but he is the only person I've known to wear a hat in aikido training. He didn't understand snakes or English language or karate or judo. And he knew nothing about aikido or its spirituality, apparently. So you're really nothing like him...but...there is the hat....

I guess if you look really unusual, it might weaken someone's belief that you are legitimate. And if you also contradict most of the best-known masters of the art you claim to represent...that also weakens your credibility. And if you do this with multiple arts, such as swordsmanship, and disregard people who really understand those arts...

By the way, I did just think of one other guy who wears a hat in karate training, but he is Okinawan and I'm not sure how traditional the headwear is in Okinawan karate, but he's the only guy I remember hearing about wearing a hat in practice. And unfortunately, you don't remind me of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btyDLszttu4&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL43FAA888D89BEF8D

My wife recently wanted to try a new sushi restaurant and was disappointed to find that it was run by Chinese instead of Japanese. She likes Chinese food fine, but she doesn't care for "Japanese" restaurants run by Chinese or Koreans. We tasted the pickled ginger and wow! It was awful! The fish and the rice were fine, as far as that goes, but these people didn't seem to realize that the pickled ginger was terrible. I don't even know how to describe it. It had some kind of strange, chemical stale flavor. It just wasn't right. And for the kind of money we spent there, it left a very bad feeling about that restaurant.

I guess the lesson from that is that one should eat at some real Japanese restaurants before trying to run one.

David

graham christian
03-06-2012, 04:12 AM
Excuse me David but your misplaced assumptions about me are even understandable to me. Now, I have finished with Mark and have no more to say on that matter, I will deal with you.

If you think your statements are assertive, even metaphorically, then I see you have not much idea in my opinion as to what open assertion is.

At least this time you have given a better idea of how you view me which if a person for some reason feels they have to do then just plain do it rather than sling insults and attack charachter. That I would actually respect.

Once again folk like you trying to understand or pigeon hole me are, unbeknown to yourselves, giving yourself a major problem. It's much easier to admit you don't know me or understand me. Much easier.
It's also much easier to admit you don't understand how I can say things you describe above.

Mr Ellis is not one to go around gossiping so would have to be directly asked and then there would be no need for he has already stated on this forum that he knew not of a Mike Muspratt but had heard of the watford dojo. So not only did you have to directly broach the subject but apparently don't know the irrelevence of doing so.

What a waste of time. Asking people who didn't know him rather than people who did.

Now, back to me. I can look at what you say or others say and thus deduce the reality they are coming from. Take the does aikido really work in a fight thread. Or any similar ones. Take the threads on budo and reality and effectiveness. What a load of unreal opinion I see on those. Especially with regards to the type of Aikido I do. It shows me just how far from the truth you are and up to now have been too polite to say so.

It makes me think that you and those who say and believe such things about real spiritual harmonious Aikido wouldn't know what budo was if it hit you in the face quite honestly.

I have put myself in more situations and life threatening situations in real life than you could even come close to purely and simply to test the effectiveness. Thus when I hear renditions of what you did or many did and see them call that reality budo wise I can only laugh. The fact that so many question its effectiveness shows me how much they don't know rather than how much they do.

I have faced guns, I have faced knife attacks, I have faced other implement attacks too. I have faced 30 against me at once and more examples too. All real, all in real life. Every single time was merely an opportunity to put Aikido effectiveness to the test. Every single time it worked. So don't bother telling me how what I do can't work for real or is unreal as you don't know how foolish a statement you are making.

Even those days of testing it in real life dangerous situations I consider foolish in retrospect but it was part of my path and as it happens each time I learned what I needed to improve on even though coming out the what you would call 'victor'.

Then I hear the reasoning of what if a madman or a drug crazed madman attacked you etc and even to the extent that people think they are training for such events or that's what the purpose is. To me that's crazy. Training for a nightmare. Then add on to that the assertion that my kind of Aikido and me would end up smashed or dead and so it's dangerous what I teach. What a load of balloney. Once again misinformed, unreal, nonsense.

Once again what you talk about or mention as great and dangerous and nightmarish I have already experienced and faced and handled. Once again in real life. A great big drug crazed idiot who was powered up on something. The first I knew was that while I was fixing my stall on the market someone had smashed me over the head with something solid. Any lesson there to learn at that time would have been zanshin. Still, I get up dazed and am assaulted by all I can describe as a monster. So while still dazed I fought with him for maybe up to five minutes until the police arrived and it took six of them to hold him down. Once again I used what I learned in Akido, once again it worked. Although a big crowd had gathered and no one stepped in to help yet they were all now patting me on the back served only to teach me more lessons about me, my aikido, and people. Later everyone full of what they were going to do, ha, ha. Bless them.

But all that pales in significance to the benefits and positive helpful things done via Aikido on the mat and in life, helping others through difficulties, healing, etc. etc.

What I learned from the sword? Well, in action in real life once again put to the test for real. One in a crazy situation where I actually gave a gunman a choice versus me with a bladed weapon and one where another idiot decided he could smash me over the head with a lump of wood. Principles of Aikido defeated them too.

I have too many examples personally of Aikido in action in real life and my friend who has been with me on this little venture since the beginning has just as many.

No my friend we are not you normal cup of tea so don't think you know me anywhere close. Our methods were not normal either for they were go out there and test for real. What we were testing was also beyond your ken for we were testing our spiritual principles of Aikido.

Now being much wiser I can thus teach my students better. They don't have to do the foolish things we did but we can teach them the lessons learned for all along the truth was masakatsu and agatsu.

The shallowness of judgement by attire is mindblowingly so unbudo and unintelligent to me it beggars belief.

The discipline and practice it takes to perform some things in my 'soft ineffective' Aikido I can only assume you have absolutely no reality on. I can tell by how peoples minds are blown by a bit of ip.

The concentration it takes wears most out let alone any physical motion.

The small demonstration I did last week to show a principle had one person, all be it quite new, running to the wall laughing and shaking his head and exclaiming that's the second time I'd blown his mind that evening. The demo was for him to choose someone and me to face them, arms folded and for them to attack however they pleased, anything goes, whenever they feel and I must remain arms folded.

The purpose being to show the other the reality of a principle and that they can do it. Many small things like people don't seem to know that a very light tap of tegatana will knock someone straight down through the mat
shows me their reality as do many other things.

Yes I can understand how you don't understand me for you haven't any experience of my kind of training past, any experience of my teaching now, any experience or very little of any similar. I say this because you cannot, I know, explain how those things I described above, those actions are related to love and kindness and non competiton.

You my friend may need hands on but I don't for I can tell enough by your views.

You can have as many O'Sense uchideshi teachers as you like but your view now tells me where you are at and nothing else needed.

So that too ends my discussion with you from here on out with me as the subject or indeed with me mentioning you as a subject. From now on if you are not asking purely about my views then I have no need to answer.

Peace. G.

lbb
03-06-2012, 07:14 AM
If people want to make more of this than what it was, feel free. The simple fact was that Graham accused me of twisting his words. I listed his words simply as he said them. He simply is incapable of pointing out how I allegedly twisted his own words.

That's your latest point of contention with him. I expect there will be another, equally fruitless point of contention in a day or so. You're free to contend as you will, but again, what are you trying to accomplish? This is a matter of simple logic, Marc. You're not really looking for answers; you already believe what you believe. You're trying to do something that needs a public forum, that needs an audience. But why? You say you want to save the newbies from misinformation, but really, do you think any of them are reading? Do you think any of them are going back to the beginning of this dispute and trying to untangle the threads to arrive at the "truth"? Do you really believe that you can stem the flow of (what you believe to be) misinformation and somehow prevent it from reaching newbie ears? Do you believe that you can be everywhere and read and respond to every bit of misinformation?

People will read and make up their own minds, and most of them don't need someone to point out that something is hooey, if in fact it is -- even if they're newbies. You don't have to be an experienced martial artist to spot a flim-flam man or to know a "cures cancer AND bad breath" pitch when you hear it. Give people credit for a little sense, and grant them the right to make their own mistakes.

Patterns speak volumes. I cared little about the obvious, sought what I was looking for, found it and am more than happy to move on.

That will be a good thing if it happens, and if you don't merely move on to another point of contention in the same argument. By now you must have realized that they are endless.

Marc Abrams
03-06-2012, 07:43 AM
That's your latest point of contention with him. I expect there will be another, equally fruitless point of contention in a day or so. You're free to contend as you will, but again, what are you trying to accomplish? This is a matter of simple logic, Marc. You're not really looking for answers; you already believe what you believe. You're trying to do something that needs a public forum, that needs an audience. But why? You say you want to save the newbies from misinformation, but really, do you think any of them are reading? Do you think any of them are going back to the beginning of this dispute and trying to untangle the threads to arrive at the "truth"? Do you really believe that you can stem the flow of (what you believe to be) misinformation and somehow prevent it from reaching newbie ears? Do you believe that you can be everywhere and read and respond to every bit of misinformation?

People will read and make up their own minds, and most of them don't need someone to point out that something is hooey, if in fact it is -- even if they're newbies. You don't have to be an experienced martial artist to spot a flim-flam man or to know a "cures cancer AND bad breath" pitch when you hear it. Give people credit for a little sense, and grant them the right to make their own mistakes.

That will be a good thing if it happens, and if you don't merely move on to another point of contention in the same argument. By now you must have realized that they are endless.

Mary:

Thank you for sharing..... You are simply wrong. I laid out the reasons as to why I asked what I did. I think that you know me well enough now that I am a very upfront person. Your sad attempts at pseudo- psychological detective work do not change the facts to fit your theories. The project, when all is said and done and it is released, will confirm what I said. I have a long memory, I will be curious to see if you will say to all that you were mistaken and owe an apology. Until then, enjoy your practice!

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams
03-06-2012, 07:48 AM
Hold on a minute there. You don't get off that lightly.

*You failed to mention I had already cleared up the Yamada video mistake.

* You failed to mention I had already explained what the use of shin shin toitsu was and thus not meaning he learned the sword from Tohei.

* You failed to mention I said I didn't know where he learned the sword. etc.

Why did you do so? Why paint a false picture? This my friend is twisting.

You still now fail to say it is and was about me. So 'precious little to do with Graham' is not the case.

As far as the principles layed out by Tohei go then yes I still say I can demonstrate them and indeed explain them far better than most on here who have tried. Therefore my knowledge is deep. The threads on such in the spiritual forum demonstrate such too. As I recall many challenged my views then and 'gregstec' even said he had experience and asked many what ifs based on them and I answered all questions quite comfortably thank you. It showed me how little many knew on that side of Aikido. Even though they think they do.

Again if I remember correctly, Mark interjected on the point of leading the mind and the difference between leading Ki to point out what I was saying was actually true. Also, as most everyone stated they knew and thus kept referring to the mind and body coordination principles as his Aikido I had to point out once again this was false. His Aikido principles are different to those, and in fact he has many sets of principles for many things. Now even Mary Eastman was surprised to learn that and said she would look it up.

So once again your portrayal is false. Your portrayal is about me.

Shin shin toitsu as a state you still don't even seem to understand and can only equate it with an organization. It is not my knowledge on the principles that is lacking my friend.

This also reminds me of something. I showed Mark at our meeting before we started an old training sheet from Mike with all the old terminology and steps and tests and principles on. Something I almost guarantee you have never seen. Purely for orientation purposes so that he could see how we originally trained.

We actually laughed at how then there were two sides to the training. One Aikido and the other mind and body unification. Two sides. Both given equal import and both to be passed equally in order to pass the levels, One side spiritual, all to do with Principles of Ki only and one to do with practice and effectiveness.

Thus it is I my friend who chuckle to think how little you 'modern' folk know about Toheis Aikido. (the ones who think they do yet by what they say to me don't)

Being well versed in it and capable and thus in honor of Tohei I am only too glad to see that most at least are now aware and accept how capable and effective he was at least. At least my efforts led to more people realizing that reality.

He used those principles and with them had no problem with handling others of that time or any other time for that matter.

So no, I don't think you have learned much at all about me but I have learned much about you.

I too can now put this to rest for I do understand where you are coming from. A place of not knowing and not understanding me. I am willing to leave you there too. I have no obligation to prove anything to you.

I agree with but one thing, what I say does speak volumes. Best you hold on to that one.

Peace.G.

Yawn........ Your words speak for themselves.....

Keep up the "good" work. If you are ever in the New York area, the offer to visit and train is still open. You can always see first hand what you and I really know and understand.

Marc Abrams

sorokod
03-06-2012, 07:50 AM
You say you want to save the newbies from misinformation, but really, do you think any of them are reading?

Why not?


Do you think any of them are going back to the beginning of this dispute and trying to untangle the threads to arrive at the "truth"?

This thread has been quite concise so far.


Do you really believe that you can stem the flow of (what you believe to be) misinformation and somehow prevent it from reaching newbie ears? Do you believe that you can be everywhere and read and respond to every bit of misinformation?


What do you believe in? What would you do to stem the flow of of (what you believe to be) misinformation?

Demetrio Cereijo
03-06-2012, 08:21 AM
Are we going to hunt resume padders, new agers, cultish instructors, people who probably suck at fighting, etc. in the aikido community?

Fine, Graham's done. Who is next?

Marc Abrams
03-06-2012, 08:36 AM
Are we going to hunt resume padders, new agers, cultish instructors, people who probably suck at fighting, etc. in the aikido community?

Fine, Graham's done. Who is next?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxiv3CBMS4M

:D ;) :D

Marc Abrams

lbb
03-06-2012, 08:53 AM
Mary:

Thank you for sharing..... You are simply wrong. I laid out the reasons as to why I asked what I did. I think that you know me well enough now that I am a very upfront person. Your sad attempts at pseudo- psychological detective work do not change the facts to fit your theories. The project, when all is said and done and it is released, will confirm what I said. I have a long memory, I will be curious to see if you will say to all that you were mistaken and owe an apology. Until then, enjoy your practice!

While we're talking about "sad attempts at pseudo-psychological detective work", perhaps you could tell me:

1. What my "theories" are
2. Exactly what you think I'm "mistaken" about, and
3. What you think I've done that would merit an apology.

I'm not disputing any of what you claim to be facts. I'm pointing out that you are engaged in what I believe to be obsessive and pointless behavior. Your calling attention to your "long memory" only serves to reinforce my impression. For your own sake, why not just let it go? You've said your say, people have heard it, they're going to make their own judgments and come to their own conclusions...you don't have any power to control that, so why not just be at peace with it? For your own sake, Marc. It's really no skin off my nose either way...just for your own sake.

lbb
03-06-2012, 08:55 AM
Why not?

Because most people get bored with long discourses filled with allegations that they can't verify one way or the other, about things that aren't vitally important to them. They get bored and leave, and the diatribe falls on deaf ears (or no ears at all). Do you really believe that anyone still reading hasn't figured out by now where they stand?

This thread has been quite concise so far.

It has its antecedents, wouldn't you say?

What do you believe in? What would you do to stem the flow of of (what you believe to be) misinformation?

It can't be stemmed, David -- that's my point. You can't stifle people who speak nonsense, and you can't control other people from drawing their own conclusions from what they read, even if those conclusions are not yours, even if they're dead wrong. Let it go.

David Orange
03-06-2012, 09:10 AM
Excuse me David but your misplaced assumptions about me are even understandable to me. Now, I have finished with Mark and have no more to say on that matter, I will deal with you.... From now on if you are not asking purely about my views then I have no need to answer.


I don't really care about your views, Graham. I want to know how you came by them. Did you and your teacher actually get on the mat with Gozo Shioda? Was Shioda impressed by Muspratt Sensei?

Thanks.

David

Marc Abrams
03-06-2012, 09:50 AM
While we're talking about "sad attempts at pseudo-psychological detective work", perhaps you could tell me:

1. What my "theories" are
2. Exactly what you think I'm "mistaken" about, and
3. What you think I've done that would merit an apology.

I'm not disputing any of what you claim to be facts. I'm pointing out that you are engaged in what I believe to be obsessive and pointless behavior. Your calling attention to your "long memory" only serves to reinforce my impression. For your own sake, why not just let it go? You've said your say, people have heard it, they're going to make their own judgments and come to their own conclusions...you don't have any power to control that, so why not just be at peace with it? For your own sake, Marc. It's really no skin off my nose either way...just for your own sake.

Mary:

Thanks for caring about my skin. I had already moved on... You are the one who seems to want this to go on. I had a reason for asking the questions that I did, I got answers and now what.... YOU are the one who wants to create the idea that I am obsessed about who? Why don't you give it a rest.... Don't you have better things to do than concern yourself with the skin on my nose?

Marc Abrams

lbb
03-06-2012, 11:27 AM
Fair enough, Marc. You do seem to keep starting and engaging on this one subject, so forgive me if I didn't see the nuance that makes this thread different from all other threads. I'm going to take my own advice and assume that, if what I've said hasn't resonated yet, it probably isn't going to, and repeating it would just be useless noise. Bye now!

OwlMatt
03-06-2012, 12:45 PM
Marc, I share your distaste for Graham's condescending attitude and inflammatory posting, but threads like this don't help. Just ignore him. In fact, AikiWeb has an Ignore List feature; put Graham on the list and you won't even have to see his posts. In colloquial internet English, don't feed the troll.

Janet Rosen
03-06-2012, 12:59 PM
Marc, I share your distaste for Graham's condescending attitude and inflammatory posting, but threads like this don't help. Just ignore him. In fact, AikiWeb has an Ignore List feature; put Graham on the list and you won't even have to see his posts. In colloquial internet English, don't feed the troll.

Thank you. +1.

graham christian
03-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Are we going to hunt resume padders, new agers, cultish instructors, people who probably suck at fighting, etc. in the aikido community?

Fine, Graham's done. Who is next?

More Monty Pythons, The inquisition.....

Demetrio Cereijo
03-06-2012, 01:38 PM
Unexpected, isn't it?

Now seriously. Graham, you were asking for it.

graham christian
03-06-2012, 01:46 PM
Unexpected, isn't it?

Now seriously. Graham, you were asking for it.

Go on, asking for what?

Demetrio Cereijo
03-06-2012, 01:52 PM
You've been asking for an e-arse whooping since you started posting around here.

Maybe is something related to your karma, something you did in a past life.

Gerardo Torres
03-06-2012, 01:58 PM
Marc, I share your distaste for Graham's condescending attitude and inflammatory posting, but threads like this don't help. Just ignore him. In fact, AikiWeb has an Ignore List feature; put Graham on the list and you won't even have to see his posts. In colloquial internet English, don't feed the troll.
The problem with the Ignore function in its current state is that say you put somebody on your Ignore List, but then everybody else responds to and quotes the person you put on ignore, so in the end you still see the "ignored" person's posts reproduced everywhere. And if the person you want to ignore happens to take over the whole site, posting every day, on every thread, and on every single subject... well, there's no way to ignore that.

graham christian
03-06-2012, 02:04 PM
Oh I see. Lol...

akiy
03-06-2012, 02:06 PM
Thread has run its course, in my view.

Thread closed.

-- Jun