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JPT
06-27-2002, 06:58 PM
I would like to know if anybody else practises Kote Garuma (the straight down version of Kote Gaeshi) and what your views are of it?
:triangle: :circle: :square:

Doug Mathieu
06-30-2002, 02:15 PM
Hi Jay

I'm not sure but are you refering to a Kotegaeshi where rather than throwing uke away from you they are put to the ground in front of you using much the same wrist grip?

We practice Kotegaeshi as a throw (nage) and as a straight down movement. I haven't used a different name for it but that may be just because I didn't know it.

The hand grip is slightly different for the nage version. If I remember right for nage you use the thumb on the back of the hand more and for the straignt down version you curl ukes fingers in more.

Regards

Greg Jennings
06-30-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by JPT
I would like to know if anybody else practises Kote Garuma (the straight down version of Kote Gaeshi) and what your views are of it?
:triangle: :circle: :square:

I've heard it called "kote oroshi" but never kote garuma (forearm wheel?).

We do it the straight down way sometimes. Like other techniques, it is useful sometimes and not others.

In particular, when uke is in the act of withdrawing the arm/hand back to them, the normal kotegaeshi will work, but kote oroshi will not work nearly as well.

Best Regards,

JPT
06-30-2002, 04:54 PM
I'm not sure but are you refering to a Kotegaeshi where rather than throwing uke away from you they are put to the ground in front of you using much the same wrist grip?
Doug yes that's the one.

I've heard it called "kote oroshi" but never kote garuma (forearm wheel?).

Kote Garuma is what my sensei calls it but your english translation really makes sense to me. 99% of the time when it has been applied to me I've felt the pain in the Wrist but the most painful ones that I've experience are those where the pain comes from the back of the hand, midway between the knuckles & the wrist. This is achieve by making a more circular motion into the forearm. Best way I can describe it is to:- imagine that you are tracing the curved shape of a wheel, moving forwards and down and then back around towards yourself (using the hand that rests on top of Uke's knuckles).

By the way what is the translation of Kote Oroshi?


:triangle: :circle: :square:

Greg Jennings
06-30-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by JPT

By the way what is the translation of Kote Oroshi?


Forearm drop.

My instructor doesn't use "oroshi", BTW. I'd heard it quoted by someone else as the new name the Ki Society uses for the technique.

It's all "kote gaeshi" to us.

Best Regards,

akiy
06-30-2002, 08:03 PM
"Oroshi" comes from the verb "orosu" which basically means "to lower." I believe Tohei sensei instituted this name change to get away from people trying to crank on the wrist to make the technique work but to use the downward motion of the throw instead.

I can't say I've ever heard of "kote guruma" (note: not "garuma") though. The "guruma" name makes it sound more like the "kata/koshi/hiza/ashi guruma" techniques which involve uke rotating (hence the "guruma" name) around those parts of the body. I've never really heard of any "guruma" techniques being indicative of a purely downward throw...

-- Jun

Greg Jennings
06-30-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by akiy
"Oroshi" comes from the verb "orosu" which basically means "to lower." I believe Tohei sensei instituted this name change to get away from people trying to crank on the wrist to make the technique work but to use the downward motion of the throw instead.

I can't say I've ever heard of "kote guruma" (note: not "garuma") though. The "guruma" name makes it sound more like the "kata/koshi/hiza/ashi guruma" techniques which involve uke rotating (hence the "guruma" name) around those parts of the body. I've never really heard of any "guruma" techniques being indicative of a purely downward throw...


Jun,

Thanks so much for jumping in and giving the real deal.

My experience with the "guruma" is evidently a subset of yours.

I'm particularly fond, btw, of suwariwaza kata guruma.

With my hips a few inches off the mat, my hips aren't available for koshinage, but my shoulders form an excellent pivot point for uke's center.

And being down there on the mat, I often have the option of not letting go of uke, rather using the connection to pin them to the mat.

Best Regards,

akiy
06-30-2002, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
Thanks so much for jumping in and giving the real deal.

My experience with the "guruma" is evidently a subset of yours.
I don't know how "real" what I said was -- just my own interpretation...

Interesting(?) point is that, from what I understand, kata and koshi guruma describe the point on nage's body where the "rotating" happens (ie uke "rotates" on nage's shoulders/hips) whereas hiza and ashi guruma refer to the point on uke's body where the "rotating" happens (ie nage places his foot on uke's knee or leg and uke "rotates" around that point).
I'm particularly fond, btw, of suwariwaza kata guruma.
I remember your pulling off a pretty nice standing kata guruma during the randori session in Merrifield.

-- Jun

Greg Jennings
06-30-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by akiy

I don't know how "real" what I said was -- just my own interpretation...

Interesting(?) point is that, from what I understand, kata and koshi guruma describe the point on nage's body where the "rotating" happens (ie uke "rotates" on nage's shoulders/hips) whereas hiza and ashi guruma refer to the point on uke's body where the "rotating" happens (ie nage places his foot on uke's knee or leg and uke "rotates" around that point).

I find it a particularly interesting observation. I'm always trying to make sense, find better ways to teach, etc.

I thought I was really on to something with my personal classification of ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, etc. till I heard the normal descriptive terms for them. Then I had that sinking feeling, the one that I get when I realize how ignorant and arrogant I can be.


I remember your pulling off a pretty nice standing kata guruma during the randori session in Merrifield.

Geez, Jun. I must be getting old. I don't remember much of Merrifield except a really great back rub from Margo and Kjartan snoring.

Best Regards,

Bronson
07-01-2002, 02:02 AM
Kote Garuma (the straight down version of Kote Gaeshi)

Yup this is how we do it all the time (mostly :D )

Personally I like it. The way sensei is doing/teaching it uke's feet end up kind of running out from under him and he sits down (uke not nage). Very controlled and gentle (unless you want it to be otherwise then OUCH!)

Best way I can describe it is to:- imagine that you are tracing the curved shape of a wheel, moving forwards and down and then back around towards yourself (using the hand that rests on top of Uke's knuckles).

I'll try to describe how we're doing it. Be patient :rolleyes:

Seidokan is characterized by pretty small techniques many of wich are done right in front of your hara. We are doing pretty much the same thing you are only much smaller (if I understood your description correctly). One major difference I can see is that instead of rolling uke's arm up over the top of the "wheel" we are dropping the hand straight down in front of us and rolling the fingers (focusing on the index) with our top hand and at the same time scooping the inside of uke's wrist with our lower hand.

I'm not sure that makes any sense at all :confused:, but I tried.

Bronson

Bronson
07-01-2002, 02:04 AM
oh yeah I forgot. We just call it kotegeashi also.

Bronson :D

Don_Modesto
07-01-2002, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Bronson
We just call it kotegeashi also.

One kind gentleman at an Orlando seminar helped me out with my theretofore ineffective KOTE GAESHI. He told me to concentrate on redirecting UKE's elbow into my center. The "twist the fingers to the side" version doesn't do this, but it makes for flashier UKEMI.

I'm much more confident with the "fingers into UKE's own forearm, elbow in my center" version as it drops UKE immediately (less gracefully, however--they crash and burn, actually); I'm really uncomfortable holding on to one of UKE's hands with both of mine, he free to roundhouse punch me with his other. The dropping effect is multiplied if NAGE does deep knee bends on application.