PDA

View Full Version : Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Chris Li
02-27-2012, 12:35 AM
The next blog installment...

Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae
Why we don't know how to stand up and walk.

http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-02-27/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae

Best,

Chris

Ernesto Lemke
02-27-2012, 02:03 AM
Thanks Chris, I enjoyed that one too! And so the plot thickens....
;)

Oh and why we aren't examining it more closely? Well, that's where you come in! :D

Peter Goldsbury
02-27-2012, 02:36 AM
Hello Ernesto,

I began to examine the Japanese texts of Budo Renshu and Budo in my TIE columns. I myself have both texts in Japanese, but I suspect that the number of people in the same situation, and who also contribute to AikiWeb, is very small. Chris Li has pointed out the discrepancies between the Stevens translation (Stevens did not supply the Japanese text) and the actual Japanese original.

Since the art of translation is a largely matter of making enlightened choices, I think you still need a commentary on the actual text, which explains why the translator has chosen from the possibilities available in those places where there is a choice to be made.

Best wishes,

PAG

Ernesto Lemke
02-27-2012, 03:25 AM
I began to examine the Japanese texts of Budo Renshu and Budo in my TIE columns. I myself have both texts in Japanese, but I suspect that the number of people in the same situation, and who also contribute to AikiWeb, is very small.

Hello Peter,

Well, let me add that "that's where Chris and you come in!" But if either Ellis, Fred, Allen, Dan and others start chiming in, I'll have to include their names as well....:D

Like you state, the number of individuals who are in the position to offer a qualitative and well founded opinion AND who also offer that opinion on Aikiweb is indeed really very small. That said, the information these people offer do add to what is already "out there." Chris raises several legitimate questions that, in light of the angle of his Blogs, need to be addressed even if one is unwilling to accept there exists such a thing as IP/IT/IS/Aiki etc.
There are Aikiweb readers and posters who do not find anything meaningful or worthwile in that, and there are those who do.
But that is somewhat besides the point isn't it, even though it does influence the way one deals with Chris' questions.

These are Ueshiba's own words. Not the words of an IP/Aiki partisan though maybe brought to us through the lens of one. Of course, one can choose to ignore Chris' point of reference and interpret Ueshiba's words differently but then that becomes a matter of choice. Either deliberate in ignoring those questions or deliberate in ignoring the implications.

All of this, however, can easily become an intellectual debate that really does end in person when faced with the skill that is IP/Aiki. That skill is so overwhelmingly convincing in the physical reality that it's hard to maintain anything other to the contrast. Offering my own experience as a counter argument to there being nothing substansive to IP/Aiki to those who have not felt, is really the weakest of arguments of course. So, up untill everyone has felt, we are left dealing with eachother via the written media that is Aikiweb.

To me, all of this is very exciting and I'm mostly sitting this one out and enjoy the ride. It would be interesting to see a solid counter argument to Chris' findings though. I can't think of one so far. Can you? ;)

Lee Salzman
02-27-2012, 05:02 AM
Chris, one thing I would caution is using any terminology from CMA, especially yiquan, at face value.

Yiquan terminology is used quite blandly, really more to describe overt physical forms of exercises. So if yiquan talks about six-directions, it could mean moving in any one of six directions, not all of them at once. And then when direction is talked about, in the context of something like 'li', it is often more expedient to interpret it as 'unity of action' or 'one action' than as 'direction'.

I think what you are talking about here is more closely termed in yiquan and even other CMA, "hun yuan". And even then, the explicit focus is universal (= all-pervading/all-directions), not six and not quantized - the universe is undivided.

So even when six directions is talked of by Morihei Ueshiba did he really mean six, or did he mean all and rather used six as a simplified figurative terminology? And even if he meant six here, did he mean it that six is where you start, and that there was a higher unspoken of universal level, or did he simply not realize to train more than six, or did he think six was all that is necessary despite?

We need to be careful with such comparisons as this. Though there are similarities, there are also noteworthy differences that should be addressed...

ewolput
02-27-2012, 05:39 AM
Translation of a text can give several interpretations.
On the Sangenkai blog, reference is made to "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan"
Once Qi of the hand moves to the back of the foot, then big toe simultaneously closes with the hand and only at this moment (one can) step firmly.

In my text :
When the hand qi flows from the heel to the big toe thereby closing the loop and gathering energy, you can take a firm stance.

I am sure if we have several translations by different persons of the Morihei Ueshiba texts, we will have different interpretations, even when the translation is made by a person who knows the art.
As for the text on "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan" , we see in the 1st we can take a step firmly
while the other says : you can take a firm stance.

It would be very interesting to have some comments of the translator why he/she chooses his interpretation.

Just a "quick" thought about translating and understanding the Ueshiba text.

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 09:10 AM
Hello Ernesto,

I began to examine the Japanese texts of Budo Renshu and Budo in my TIE columns. I myself have both texts in Japanese, but I suspect that the number of people in the same situation, and who also contribute to AikiWeb, is very small. Chris Li has pointed out the discrepancies between the Stevens translation (Stevens did not supply the Japanese text) and the actual Japanese original.

Since the art of translation is a largely matter of making enlightened choices, I think you still need a commentary on the actual text, which explains why the translator has chosen from the possibilities available in those places where there is a choice to be made.

Best wishes,

PAG

All good points, and I'm not trying to bash John (although it may seem that way sometimes). John always says that his goal was mainly to get stuff out there - to provide some kind of access to as many people as possible (as I mentioned, some of the material that he's translated isn't even available in Japanese anymore).

To that end, it had to be presented in a form that would be relatively digestible in small doses. If you presented, for example, a single Doka in the way that it ought to be presented, with a full page of explanation and dissection (and I've done a couple myself) - it may well be that only a very tiny audience would actually end up reading the thing.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 09:14 AM
Chris, one thing I would caution is using any terminology from CMA, especially yiquan, at face value.

Yiquan terminology is used quite blandly, really more to describe overt physical forms of exercises. So if yiquan talks about six-directions, it could mean moving in any one of six directions, not all of them at once. And then when direction is talked about, in the context of something like 'li', it is often more expedient to interpret it as 'unity of action' or 'one action' than as 'direction'.

I think what you are talking about here is more closely termed in yiquan and even other CMA, "hun yuan". And even then, the explicit focus is universal (= all-pervading/all-directions), not six and not quantized - the universe is undivided.

So even when six directions is talked of by Morihei Ueshiba did he really mean six, or did he mean all and rather used six as a simplified figurative terminology? And even if he meant six here, did he mean it that six is where you start, and that there was a higher unspoken of universal level, or did he simply not realize to train more than six, or did he think six was all that is necessary despite?

We need to be careful with such comparisons as this. Though there are similarities, there are also noteworthy differences that should be addressed...

Could be - and I'm really not trying to argue a proof, although even moving in six different directions (or all directions, if we take it for "many") would be interesting because it's so different from "opening your feet at a 60 degree angle".

What I'm trying to do it to open the conversation a little bit, to get people to see some of the problems, and some of the possibilites that actually exist.

The real meat is, as the Founder said, "taught in practice".

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 09:18 AM
Translation of a text can give several interpretations.
On the Sangenkai blog, reference is made to "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan"
Once Qi of the hand moves to the back of the foot, then big toe simultaneously closes with the hand and only at this moment (one can) step firmly.

In my text :
When the hand qi flows from the heel to the big toe thereby closing the loop and gathering energy, you can take a firm stance.

I am sure if we have several translations by different persons of the Morihei Ueshiba texts, we will have different interpretations, even when the translation is made by a person who knows the art.
As for the text on "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan" , we see in the 1st we can take a step firmly
while the other says : you can take a firm stance.

It would be very interesting to have some comments of the translator why he/she chooses his interpretation.

Just a "quick" thought about translating and understanding the Ueshiba text.

I think that it's important for people to realize that any translation (mine included) is going to be filtered through the lens of that translator's opinions and knowledge. In other words, you can never really trust a translation 100%, although of course some translations will have more obvious problems than others.

There's a real problem in Aikido in that many translations are accepted without translation, and without even consideration of the possibility that things were missed.

Of course, the problem exists on the Japanese side as well - you can see that in the many uchi-deshi who stated flat out that they didn't understand what the Founder was talking about.

Best,

Chris

chillzATL
02-27-2012, 09:38 AM
Chris,

I know that you have a job outside of translating stuff like this for us, but can't you just drop what you're doing and get it ALL done already?

great read, your blog is RSS'd.

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 10:22 AM
I think that it's important for people to realize that any translation (mine included) is going to be filtered through the lens of that translator's opinions and knowledge. In other words, you can never really trust a translation 100%, although of course some translations will have more obvious problems than others.

There's a real problem in Aikido in that many translations are accepted without translation, and without even consideration of the possibility that things were missed.

Of course, the problem exists on the Japanese side as well - you can see that in the many uchi-deshi who stated flat out that they didn't understand what the Founder was talking about.

Best,

Chris

Oops, I meant "accepted without question".

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 10:24 AM
Chris,

I know that you have a job outside of translating stuff like this for us, but can't you just drop what you're doing and get it ALL done already?

great read, your blog is RSS'd.

Thanks, but I'd prefer to stay married. :D

Best,

Chris

phitruong
02-27-2012, 11:57 AM
Thanks, but I'd prefer to stay married. :D

Best,

Chris

married is overrated! so get to the translation already! and stop hosting those party animals which i won't name names like dan and howie! :D

phitruong
02-27-2012, 12:08 PM
would you have an idea the six internal directions? i thought the six directions, 6H, referred to 3 external and 3 internal from chinese lore.

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 12:18 PM
would you have an idea the six internal directions? i thought the six directions, 6H, referred to 3 external and 3 internal from chinese lore.

In Japanese they'd usually refer to six harmonies (六合) - the internal and external harmonies (内六合、外六合), and that would be slightly different.

There is a place where Ueshiba mentions this, but I haven't dug into it enough to be sure that's what he was pointing at.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
02-27-2012, 12:31 PM
In Japanese they'd usually refer to six harmonies (六合) - the internal and external harmonies (内六合、外六合), and that would be slightly different.

There is a place where Ueshiba mentions this, but I haven't dug into it enough to be sure that's what he was pointing at.

Best,

Chris

also, what are the "kami principles"? anything like Zeus to human which is either crispy or extra crispy? :)

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 12:51 PM
also, what are the "kami principles"? anything like Zeus to human which is either crispy or extra crispy? :)

Well, it's like the "Peter Principles", but it wasn't a best seller. :)

Actually, what it says, is "make (yourself) that which give rise to Kannagara". "Kannagara" (as in "Kannagara no Michi", the "Way of the Gods") means something along the lines of "keeping the heart of the Gods" - so..."aligned with the principles of the Kami" for a more simplified representation.

Best,

Chris

Peter Goldsbury
02-27-2012, 05:49 PM
All good points, and I'm not trying to bash John (although it may seem that way sometimes). John always says that his goal was mainly to get stuff out there - to provide some kind of access to as many people as possible (as I mentioned, some of the material that he's translated isn't even available in Japanese anymore).

To that end, it had to be presented in a form that would be relatively digestible in small doses. If you presented, for example, a single Doka in the way that it ought to be presented, with a full page of explanation and dissection (and I've done a couple myself) - it may well be that only a very tiny audience would actually end up reading the thing.

Best,

Chris

You make some good points and I, too, am not trying to bash John Stevens, as you put it. However, there is a great risk that in presenting someone like Morihei Ueshiba to 'as many people as possible', you end up with 'Ueshiba-lite' and I think the aikido world suffers too much from the consequences of this already.

PAG

Chris Li
02-27-2012, 06:00 PM
You make some good points and I, too, am not trying to bash John Stevens, as you put it. However, there is a great risk that in presenting someone like Morihei Ueshiba to 'as many people as possible', you end up with 'Ueshiba-lite' and I think the aikido world suffers too much from the consequences of this already.

PAG

True, and here's the tension between Kisshomaru's vision and Morihei's, although I suppose that in the end Morihei at least tacitly agreed to what was happening.

I wonder if either of them could see where it was going - and whether that mattered to them in the contexts of their respective goals.

Best,

Chris

gregstec
02-27-2012, 06:22 PM
True, and here's the tension between Kisshomaru's vision and Morihei's, although I suppose that in the end Morihei at least tacitly agreed to what was happening.

I wonder if either of them could see where it was going - and whether that mattered to them in the contexts of their respective goals.

Best,

Chris

I am certainly no way as knowledgeable in this area as you and Peter, but it appears to me that their respective goals were light years apart - just my opinion.

Greg

Ellis Amdur
02-27-2012, 07:33 PM
Sorry to jump back to a previous portion of the thread, but several questions are raised by the question of roppo (not that I have answers).

1. When Ueshiba said, "In footwork there is an external six directions and an internal six directions as well as an outer spiral and an internal spiral, this will be taught in practice," did he keep his "promise." In other words, did he actually explicitly teach this, or was it that he manifested it and assume those worthy would "steal" it - or absorb by osmosis.
2. As Lee Saltzman pointed out earlier, (with my caveat in italics) there's not doubt that the core complete skills of qi and jin and tantien, etc., are the same, in the same way that there is a discipline of physics or mathematics. But . . . Each martial art may emphasize a circumscribed subset of those skills. That may be all they know. That may be what they choose to emphasize. We cannot clearly determine exactly what Ueshiba meant by HIS roppo. There's no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that he is referencing the same general material that is described in the Chen t'ai chi text, but that doesn't mean he meant the same thing in detail. In other words, they were both talking about physics (a term used as a metaphor, here), maybe even quantum physics, but one might have been using a cyclotron and the other a Large Hadron Collider.
3. As Takeda was almost illiterate, it is unlikely that he referenced this literature, that O-sensei nearly quotes at times (not the Chen manual, which was not accessible, even to most Chinese, but the general Chinese literature). Did Ueshiba find this literature (remember that the Misogikai practices were, in fact, an extracted and rewritten into Shinto version of Chinese training texts, at least in part, but they were almost surely Shaolin-type texts) later, recognize it and say, "here's a document for what I've been doing!" OR, was this literature so common amongst educated Japanese (Kiichi Hogen certainly was - heck, I knew about his legends) that it was something he'd read about and then "had his eyes opened to true budo" when he physically experienced it? Or - uh-oh - there's always the danger that he did what so many do - he got a some level of physical skill and then, because the terms sounded right, (and given their historical cachet, sounded cool), said, "that's what I'm doing."

With all his students, why didn't he produce equals or superiors if he did teach this in practice?

Ellis Amdur

Lee Salzman
02-27-2012, 11:02 PM
With all his students, why didn't he produce equals or superiors if he did teach this in practice?


Maybe it was... hidden in plain sight? *badum tish* :D

Lee Salzman
02-27-2012, 11:26 PM
With all his students, why didn't he produce equals or superiors if he did teach this in practice?

Actually, one thing I wanted to add to that, and it is not worth more than a pence, certainly not two... But I have realized during the past year that certain methodologies of teaching can REALLY only function under very direct supervision, as in, one-on-one private teaching. Without someone who can just stand there for, well, hours and literally dissect your body top to bottom from the outside and do it again and again, it is probably going to be all but impossible transmit certain ideas, not intellectually, but into the body. That is the difficulty, not in the concepts, but in the implementation.

So, maybe Morihei Ueshiba really was teaching, but his, ahem, broadcast model was simply not really taking the time with a select few to ensure that things really were being understood, not just in the squishy area inside the skull, but everywhere else in the body? Perhaps that is where he might have differed from Takeda in producing students?

Sacha Cloetens
02-28-2012, 03:57 AM
With all his students, why didn't he produce equals or superiors if he did teach this in practice?

Ellis Amdur

Dear,

I seem to recall from previous threads that one Daitu Ryo proponent ( was it Sagawa? ) stated, that Takeda specifficaly instructed him to only teach 4 or 5 ( and certainly not foreigners).
If so, would Takeda have instructed O Sensei otherwise?
Did the 4 or 5 Takeda produced, produce more than 4 or 5 themselves ?
If others respected this instruction, why wouldn't O Sensei?
How would one proceed to select those 4 or 5 willing and able?
If O sensei actually made a selection, when would this have occured? - before/during/after the war?
If before /during the war, did they survive & have the chance develop and teach themselves?
Would that be openly known or rather secluded?

half a cent.
cheers,
Sacha

Tenyu
03-02-2012, 01:25 AM
But I have realized during the past year that certain methodologies of teaching can REALLY only function under very direct supervision, as in, one-on-one private teaching. Without someone who can just stand there for, well, hours and literally dissect your body top to bottom from the outside and do it again and again, it is probably going to be all but impossible transmit certain ideas, not intellectually, but into the body. That is the difficulty, not in the concepts, but in the implementation.


I haven't had more than three students in one Aiki weapons class, and I know with certainty I wouldn't be able to give the depth of individual attention conducive to learning with more, even four students would be pushing it. This isn't to say larger class sizes aren't productive but teachers and future teachers need instruction with only one or two peers at most for a significant portion of their class training if they're to make real progress.

NekVTAikido
03-02-2012, 11:34 AM
With all his students, why didn't he produce equals or superiors if he did teach this in practice?

Ellis Amdur

Sensei Amdur: In your personal opinion: If O Sensei didn't teach it, can it be found in Aikido? Or should those of us who seek it look elsewhere (and possibly give up on Aikido?)

Ellis Amdur
03-02-2012, 02:11 PM
First of all, all I have is opinions - just me, one man. That caveat taken into account -
1. I just wrote on another thread something I tried to convey in HIPS and feel even more strongly now. Modern aikido (which is almost ALL aikido aside from what Osensei did, in my opinion), stands on its own merits. I am utterly fascinated by IS - it has given my budo training an utterly new lease on life. I look forward to training in a way that I haven't in years. BUT - that's because I have specific goals. The goals of modern aikido are, in many ways, different from my personal goals, but unlike some, I think, that doesn't make them worse. Modern aikido is not, in my view, merely a watered-down version of Ueshiba Morihei's art, any more than Christianity is watered down Judaism, or Lutheranism is watered-down Catholicism, etc. If it hadn't been for Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Tohei Koichi and Shioda Gozo, in particular, aikido would be no more important than Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu - with is, aside from it's importance to a few people, insignificant. Just another sectarian martial art, trained like a koryu, with ten or twenty people in the whole world who give a damn.
2. Contrary, also, to some, I categorically believe that Ueshiba's singular IS can never be found. Ever. That's why I wrote the last chapter of HIPS. You cannot divide out his Internal Strength/aiki paradigm, derived largely (Possibly solely) from Daito-ryu, and that, almost surely passed down from China, from his mystical/shamanistic/religious practices and beliefs.
3. However, I do believe that IS is learnable, is accessible, in many forms (of the same basic paradigm) from many people. It is also possible that a few still remain within aikido - I've been told - always privately - about a few such people. Unless I get a chance to meet and feel them, who knows. It could be merely a matter of "we do that too." And one can go outside to learn the skills, and if sufficiently skilled oneself - HIGHLY skilled, in other words, one could bring it back into aikido in one's own unique way.
4. Continuing the same metaphor I used in HIPS, if you consider aikido technique, practice, etc to be a vessel - you first have to decide that this is the vessel you want to live with every day. IF you decide that is so, then I firmly believe that training in IS (from elsewhere) should not conflict, but should, in fact, be additive.

I wrote about this in a column on Aikido Journal, but I've been informed that the article has been lost from the site. I'll republish it and put it up on my own website - how to integrate the internal strength paradigm within modern aikido without doing violence to modern aikido.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-02-2012, 04:14 PM
So Ellis,

You would say Ueshiba's IS was a single, unique and unrepeatable event because his beliefs? Not simply another flavor of Daito-ryu's IS but a different kind of IS?

Ellis Amdur
03-02-2012, 04:37 PM
Demetrio that's not what I was asked and that's not what I said. Seems to me you either weren't reading carefully or you are deliberately misreading what I wrote. In either event, I have no desire for yet another utterly pointless thread drift on whether ueshiba was really really really doing 100% Daito ryu overlaid by a pointless irrelevant layer of nonsensical religious fantasy. Don't waste my time or the much more interesting avenues that this blog of Chris's could go.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-02-2012, 04:55 PM
Roger.

Ellis Amdur
03-04-2012, 11:38 PM
I found the article - it's not lost, it's just on the member's section of Aikido Journal. (Everyone should join! The amount of primary source material that Stanley Pranin is releasing these days is amazing.

"A Consideration of Aikido Practice Within the Context of Internal Training." (http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/a-consideration-of-aikido-practice-within-the-context-of-internal-training-by-ellis-amdur/)

Anyway, I think it answers my viewpoint on this subject pretty completely (and therefore, answers Gordon's question as best I can).

Best
Ellis Amdur

Chris Li
03-05-2012, 07:18 PM
Part 2 - and a response from John Stevens:

http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-03-05/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae-part-2

Best,

Chris

ewolput
03-06-2012, 04:23 AM
About "roppo". In a book (in French) written by Tadashi Abewith the help of Jean Zin in around 1958 the term "roppo" is used as a form of how to move with the feet. The French word is : deplacement croise. It is a step forward (shite) with the back foot at an angle of 90°, followed by a step forward by the original leading foot. Uke is using the sampe principle to do a step backward.
It is mentioned that this way of moving is used against attacks with a stick or spear. Tadashi Abe was a postwar student of Morihei Ueshiba.
Around the same time a movie was made by Senta Yamada, and in the movie a similar step is used to step forward and doing a turning movement, the front foot is used to "step out to the inside". This stepping out to the inside has a flavour of Tadashi Abe's "deplacement croise". This kind of stepping we also can see in Kenji Tomiki's movie of the early fifties (Judo Taiso). As far as I know the term "roppo" is not used by Yamada or Tomiki. Stepping in this way gives the opportunity to move in almost a direction of 360°.
Can we conclude that in the early fifties some of Ueshiba's students had some "important" (?) knowledge, but were not able to pass it to the next generation?

Just a thought on "roppo"

Eddy

gregstec
03-06-2012, 08:21 AM
Another view on 'Roppo' may be found in Okamoto's Roppokai - just a thought also....

Greg

Mark Freeman
03-06-2012, 09:19 AM
I found the article - it's not lost, it's just on the member's section of Aikido Journal. (Everyone should join! The amount of primary source material that Stanley Pranin is releasing these days is amazing.

"A Consideration of Aikido Practice Within the Context of Internal Training." (http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/a-consideration-of-aikido-practice-within-the-context-of-internal-training-by-ellis-amdur/)

Anyway, I think it answers my viewpoint on this subject pretty completely (and therefore, answers Gordon's question as best I can).

Best
Ellis Amdur

Hi Ellis,

thank you for posting this, what a great read. The latter part of the essay, speaks to me directly. I will be out and about in the world soon, looking to find good practice wherever I go. However, I have been 'changed' in the last couple of years by my exposure to both Mike and Dan. So my 'aiki/is' practice feels more relevant than aikido waza. I still enjoy the waza, but my focus has changed.

I may well end up on the outside of the mainstream, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

regards,

Mark

Chris Li
03-06-2012, 09:24 AM
About "roppo". In a book (in French) written by Tadashi Abewith the help of Jean Zin in around 1958 the term "roppo" is used as a form of how to move with the feet. The French word is : deplacement croise. It is a step forward (shite) with the back foot at an angle of 90°, followed by a step forward by the original leading foot. Uke is using the sampe principle to do a step backward.
It is mentioned that this way of moving is used against attacks with a stick or spear. Tadashi Abe was a postwar student of Morihei Ueshiba.
Around the same time a movie was made by Senta Yamada, and in the movie a similar step is used to step forward and doing a turning movement, the front foot is used to "step out to the inside". This stepping out to the inside has a flavour of Tadashi Abe's "deplacement croise". This kind of stepping we also can see in Kenji Tomiki's movie of the early fifties (Judo Taiso). As far as I know the term "roppo" is not used by Yamada or Tomiki. Stepping in this way gives the opportunity to move in almost a direction of 360°.
Can we conclude that in the early fifties some of Ueshiba's students had some "important" (?) knowledge, but were not able to pass it to the next generation?

Just a thought on "roppo"

Eddy

My personal opinion is:


The "60 degree angle" is certainly not canonical. I gave a couple of examples, and the one's above are good too.
It's really not about the angle. The important material that Ueshiba was discussing had little to do with that.


FWIW...

Best,

Chris

Walker
03-06-2012, 11:12 AM
I think it is found in boxing too.
Didn't Mohammed Ali use a strategy called "roppo dope"?

phitruong
03-06-2012, 11:15 AM
I think it is found in boxing too.
Didn't Mohammed Ali use a strategy called "roppo dope"?

good one! i bowed to your punch line! :)

Janet Rosen
03-06-2012, 12:56 PM
I think it is found in boxing too.
Didn't Mohammed Ali use a strategy called "roppo dope"?

:D

Chris Li
03-06-2012, 01:10 PM
Added one additional comment to the post discussing John Stevens' comments:

Morihiro Saito's commentary on "Budo" has a portion of the original Japanese text, the John Stevens translation of "Budo" has none of the original text at all. I included the complete original text in Japanese - everybody is free to examine it and decide for themselves.

For the full post see http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-03-05/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae-part-2

Best,

Chris

Lee Salzman
03-06-2012, 01:14 PM
My personal opinion is:


The "60 degree angle" is certainly not canonical. I gave a couple of examples, and the one's above are good too.
It's really not about the angle. The important material that Ueshiba was discussing had little to do with that.


FWIW...

Best,

Chris

In one sense, it's not really about angle. In another sense. it is about angle. Stand upright in a normal joe-schmoe posture with your feet just pointed neutrallyish forwardsish. Now squat down a bit by folding at the hip, and take note of how that felt. Then extend straight up and focus on extending the hip, take note of how that felt. Now turn your feet inwards so your toes are pointing at each other. Try to squat down again, then stand up again. Take note of how that felt. Now turn your feet out so yours toes are pointing straight out to the sides, the other extreme. Squat down, then stand up again. Take note of how that felt.

You might notice something like in the neutral orientation of the upper thigh with respect to the hip, force carries quite well, and the hip is quite strong. At either of the other extremes, the hip is just... weak, and easily loses connection with everything else, that connection with everything else being a very important thing to maintain. So if maintaining any stance that is to allow power to flow through, regardless of direction, that neutrality must be sought, regardless of the incidental starting position of the hip. If you take a kamae such that the hip socket is torqued, or rather, collapsed, to extremes, well, that is going to both impede external movement... and internal movement. The goal ain't to hold the hips in a position, the goal is to allow them to move actively in a powerful way.

Chris Li
03-06-2012, 01:30 PM
In one sense, it's not really about angle. In another sense. it is about angle. Stand upright in a normal joe-schmoe posture with your feet just pointed neutrallyish forwardsish. Now squat down a bit by folding at the hip, and take note of how that felt. Then extend straight up and focus on extending the hip, take note of how that felt. Now turn your feet inwards so your toes are pointing at each other. Try to squat down again, then stand up again. Take note of how that felt. Now turn your feet out so yours toes are pointing straight out to the sides, the other extreme. Squat down, then stand up again. Take note of how that felt.

You might notice something like in the neutral orientation of the upper thigh with respect to the hip, force carries quite well, and the hip is quite strong. At either of the other extremes, the hip is just... weak, and easily loses connection with everything else, that connection with everything else being a very important thing to maintain. So if maintaining any stance that is to allow power to flow through, regardless of direction, that neutrality must be sought, regardless of the incidental starting position of the hip. If you take a kamae such that the hip socket is torqued, or rather, collapsed, to extremes, well, that is going to both impede external movement... and internal movement. The goal ain't to hold the hips in a position, the goal is to allow them to move actively in a powerful way.

If we're saying that the angle of the feet are going to affect the rest of the body - sure, that's a no brainer, everything's obviously connected.

My question is:


Is the angle of the feet what Ueshiba was talking about?
If he was (I don't believe that he was) - is the difference between 60 and 90 degrees really a deep dark martial secret?
If it is the angle, and it is that vital, why do we have other close students of Ueshiba with differing opinions on the angle?


Best,

Chris

Lee Salzman
03-06-2012, 01:48 PM
If we're saying that the angle of the feet are going to affect the rest of the body - sure, that's a no brainer, everything's obviously connected.

My question is:


Is the angle of the feet what Ueshiba was talking about?
If he was (I don't believe that he was) - is the difference between 60 and 90 degrees really a deep dark martial secret?
If it is the angle, and it is that vital, why do we have other close students of Ueshiba with differing opinions on the angle?


Best,

Chris

1. Probably not.
2. Even more probably not.
3. 'Cause most of them state they didn't understand what the old man was saying anyway so they guessed he was talking sumfin about footsies? :D

... but at the same time, it might have implications why someone farther down the line could look at a demonstration given and interpret the external appearance of what is being shown - oh, he's making a point about the feet - when in reality he could have just been exaggerating something to get at a larger point, but elaborated in one context as a starting point. So if someone grew irrationally attached to one context, without getting the larger point, and another grew irrationally attached to another context, without getting the larger point, they could all be quite vociferous about what they believe, and disagree amongst themselves, because they missed a larger point...

Chris Li
03-06-2012, 01:52 PM
3. 'Cause most of them state they didn't understand what the old man was saying anyway so they guessed he was talking sumfin about footsies? :D

Footsies and roppodope - no wonder they kept this stuff secret. :D

Best,

Chris

DH
03-06-2012, 03:27 PM
My personal opinion is:


The "60 degree angle" is certainly not canonical. I gave a couple of examples, and the one's above are good too.
It's really not about the angle. The important material that Ueshiba was discussing had little to do with that.


FWIW...

Best,

Chris
Hi Chris
I remain unmoved and uninterested in the assertions of those who claim they received " inside teachings" yet who's writing and skills portray anything out of the ordinary. Their skills should at the very least support their own claim of superior competency. John Steven's opinion of a thousand year old teaching being assigned to standing in hanmi is yet another example of what is missing in Aikido.
Since he decided to tell everyone here that ...you...are not qualified to discuss these things, and I'm here on the island-you can tell him if he would like to get a real explanation for all that he missed- I will be happy to cross hands with him and teach him what his own teacher was doing and he obviously does not grasp; either historically or physically.
This recent list of posts on shaminism, berserker mentality, traditionalism and home brewers...were off in the weeds, but at least they were interesting and fair handed. Now we see these completely erroneous and ignorant statements that six direction training and spiraling meant hanmi and swirling the legs...reminds me once again that these discussions really belong in the hands of those capable of actually doing and expressing unusual power.
Good writing skills are no qualifier for good Budo- not that they are mutually exclusive either. While we all enjoy our budo chroniclers, when we confuse their abilities at turning a good phrase with actual skills we can get into dangerous waters.
Dan

Chris Li
03-06-2012, 05:22 PM
Hi Chris
I remain unmoved and uninterested in the assertions of those who claim they received " inside teachings" yet who's writing and skills portray anything out of the ordinary. Their skills should at the very least support their own claim of superior competency. John Steven's opinion of a thousand year old teaching being assigned to standing in hanmi is yet another example of what is missing in Aikido.
Since he decided to tell everyone here that ...you...are not qualified to discuss these things, and I'm here on the island-you can tell him if he would like to get a real explanation for all that he missed- I will be happy to cross hands with him and teach him what his own teacher was doing and he obviously does not grasp; either historically or physically.
This recent list of posts on shaminism, berserker mentality, traditionalism and home brewers...were off in the weeds, but at least they were interesting and fair handed. Now we see these completely erroneous and ignorant statements that six direction training and spiraling meant hanmi and swirling the legs...reminds me once again that these discussions really belong in the hands of those capable of actually doing and expressing unusual power.
Good writing skills are no qualifier for good Budo- not that they are mutually exclusive either. While we all enjoy our budo chroniclers, when we confuse their abilities at turning a good phrase with actual skills we can get into dangerous waters.
Dan

Passed it along...

Before anybody gets upset, this is absolutely not any kind of a weird challenge to a fight to the death, please don't take it that way - just an offer from Dan to demonstrate physically the principles of six directions and spiraling that I talked about in the original blog posting about Kamae (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-02-27/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae) and the post with the response from John Stevens (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-03-05/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae-part-2).

Best,

Chris

DH
03-06-2012, 07:32 PM
Passed it along...

Before anybody gets upset, this is absolutely not any kind of a weird challenge to a fight to the death, please don't take it that way - just an offer from Dan to demonstrate physically the principles of six directions and spiraling that I talked about in the original blog posting about Kamae (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-02-27/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae) and the post with the response from John Stevens (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-03-05/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae-part-2).

Best,

Chris
I was just saying that to Tom. " Who in their right mind would ever take me offering to demonstrate ...as a threat?" Then I remembered certain sensitive souls here doing exactly that!!
So Yes Chris. It was an offer to explain what Ueshiba was referencing as a body of work in his writings and which is stunningly evident in Shirata's solo training exercises. It really doesn't matter to me how he sees himself as "qualified," since no Aikido Shihan I have ever met or seen can do and explain these things. Honestly, I think trying to find one- or as we have seen recently trying to invent one- isn't going to survive scrutiny by more educated budoka.
DAN

Tenyu
03-06-2012, 07:32 PM
Obviously there' infinite kamae but for high energy applications a 60 or 90 deg angle doesn't provide enough support. For yokomennage and shomennage a modified zenkutsu dachi works really well. When these strikes/throws are trained with other forms in sets, kata, or freestyle then ‘shallower' stances are ideal to facilitate transitions between forms. A right or left hanmi from 45 deg up to 0 deg (feet parallel) and all the way through to sanchin dachi can be used. O Sensei's height gave him the advantage of being able to ground with short distances between his feet, yet his historical video does show times where he opts to accommodate ground with his upper body instead of his kamae. O Sensei must have practiced it considerably, shown in the contraction and protrusion of his shoulders at strike termination, that it's been passed down and canonized in the Iwama line. It's important to note though the majority of his kata/freestyle rarely included shoulder resistance. The time commitment to release back into full non-resistance from resistance is a limiting factor, not to mention Aikido's understanding of non-resistance being the base of all action.

DH
03-06-2012, 07:39 PM
Angles and ways to stand are not the higher level...or better stated, more potent and important training models Ueshiba was talking about.
kamae is kindergarten and seeing teachers try to combine six direction -as kamae- is both sad...and rather funny.
Then again I have seen and witnessed a veritable host of various budo teachers reduce some truly profound work to their own meager level of understanding....and call it a good day. The students don't know the difference and so it goes....
Most are happy though, could care less, and both teacher and student will remain blissfully ignorant of the real power of aiki, in budo to their dying day.
Dan

Tenyu
03-06-2012, 10:39 PM
Luckily O Sensei had a significant portion of his work recorded so not everyone can be fooled or limited by the status quo. To give due credit although not in their entirety, different parts of O Sensei's training have been passed down to different teachers. His contracted activations, part parcel to his size, concentrated energy mostly within himself ‘reflecting between heaven and earth.' Whereas his decontracted activations, the majority of his kata, concentrated energy through himself ‘from heaven to earth.' I'm much taller than O Sensei so I'm able to train contracted activations through rather than within. At the highest levels of energy, the ‘integrity' of heaven, man, and earth begin to disappear where the physical demands and the appearance of through and within can become indistinguishable. I know this probably doesn't make sense to anyone here but I find creating the description helpful if only for myself and my own ability to teach down the line in person.

Lee Salzman
03-07-2012, 12:55 AM
Luckily O Sensei had a significant portion of his work recorded so not everyone can be fooled or limited by the status quo. To give due credit although not in their entirety, different parts of O Sensei's training have been passed down to different teachers. His contracted activations, part parcel to his size, concentrated energy mostly within himself ‘reflecting between heaven and earth.' Whereas his decontracted activations, the majority of his kata, concentrated energy through himself ‘from heaven to earth.' I'm much taller than O Sensei so I'm able to train contracted activations through rather than within. At the highest levels of energy, the ‘integrity' of heaven, man, and earth begin to disappear where the physical demands and the appearance of through and within can become indistinguishable. I know this probably doesn't make sense to anyone here but I find creating the description helpful if only for myself and my own ability to teach down the line in person.

What do you mean by contracted activation and decontracted activation? Please explain.

Michael Hackett
03-07-2012, 01:24 AM
You're right, it doesn't. Since you recognize your description "probably doesn't make sense to anyone here", how does that help you teach others? Maybe with the definitions that Lee requested it might.....

DH
03-07-2012, 04:08 AM
Oh good grief...reading this stuff is the same as reading John Stevens....unless you really know the subject....it's a total waste of time.
Dan

Marc Abrams
03-07-2012, 08:32 AM
An exploration of where Tenyu is coming from might help people understand what he is trying to say. Best to review this thread.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19361

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Michael Douglas
03-07-2012, 01:44 PM
An exploration of where Tenyu is coming from might help people understand what he is trying to say. Best to review this thread.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19361

Marc, flippin' 'eck the first page alone was forum GOLD, now I've got the next ten pages to wade through ... Aargh.
Thanks, I mean. :| :straightf <-- hey look, two of my favourite smileys.

My vocabulary has increased by the addition of "Asymptotic", despite never using such a word throughout A-level and 1st-year degree mathematics.

ChrisMoses
03-07-2012, 02:08 PM
Marc, flippin' 'eck the first page alone was forum GOLD, now I've got the next ten pages to wade through ... Aargh.
Thanks, I mean. :| :straightf <-- hey look, two of my favourite smileys.

My vocabulary has increased by the addition of "Asymptotic", despite never using such a word throughout A-level and 1st-year degree mathematics.

Yeah, I somehow managed to miss that one too. Gets a big WTF? :eek: and LOL :p from me as well.

Although having done some "Aikibojutsu" with Tom Read, his use of the terms isn't surprising.

Howard Popkin
03-07-2012, 03:57 PM
Chris,

Being a kind,soft spoken person, I really would appreciate you offering constructive criticism, instead of ...WTF ?? :D

So here goes -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJkSIHUinno&context=C3cbe72eADOEgsToPDskLAKT7bLW2r0mTAxsfwK3-b

Watch 0:39 -

If he was using internal power, there would be no need for tension in his face, clenching teeth, etc... Could be because the level 10 resonator causes such vibration in the sine wave of his tongue that he must clench.......

But since I am not an Aikibodoka, I wouldn't know from such things.

I have been called an Aiki bozo though, by you, if I'm not mistaken :cool:

ChrisMoses
03-07-2012, 04:09 PM
@Howard: LOL.

I never go over about a 7.5 resonator myself, I'm worried about what I would unleash if I did...

Marc Abrams
03-07-2012, 04:30 PM
When I use my internal power and resonate to level 10, female moose gather, my wife leaves the room for at least one hour and the temperature of the planet rises 1/10th of one degree :crazy: :drool: :hypno: :yuck: ....

Marc Abrams

ChrisMoses
03-07-2012, 04:30 PM
So stepping back from my off-topic/snarkiness for a moment, I really do appreciate this thread for what it brings up.

On one level, I'm stunned by the choices that Stevens made in his translation, but it also makes me hunger for what other information was simply glossed over or omitted by 'translators' in other texts I've read. We put so much importance on the printed word and for many of us, these texts have been carefully studied and revisited as we've developed in our arts. As a reader of a translation, we enter into a trust relationship with that translator to be the accurate voice of the original speaker/author. Personally, examples like this not only make me feel frustrated, but betrayed in a way.

Thanks Chris for bringing this one up, it's a great reminder about how we have to approach our research.

Michael Douglas
03-07-2012, 04:33 PM
*sniff* :(
This was the last line of that whole (Sixteen pages!) thread ;
... so forgive me if this was all a joke.

Poignant.

(Sorry for the derail Jun)

Michael Hackett
03-07-2012, 04:38 PM
@Howard. I thought you were joking until the clip opened with the title. He couldn't possibly do that with a bokken or shinken because it would create too much lift and he would find himself in the middle of Humboldt Bay.

Howard Popkin
03-07-2012, 05:17 PM
Yeah, well....with all his years of experience, maybe he knows something that the rest of us don't.

Chris Li
03-07-2012, 05:24 PM
So stepping back from my off-topic/snarkiness for a moment, I really do appreciate this thread for what it brings up.

On one level, I'm stunned by the choices that Stevens made in his translation, but it also makes me hunger for what other information was simply glossed over or omitted by 'translators' in other texts I've read. We put so much importance on the printed word and for many of us, these texts have been carefully studied and revisited as we've developed in our arts. As a reader of a translation, we enter into a trust relationship with that translator to be the accurate voice of the original speaker/author. Personally, examples like this not only make me feel frustrated, but betrayed in a way.

Thanks Chris for bringing this one up, it's a great reminder about how we have to approach our research.

Thanks! I'm glad that not everybody hates me. ;)

Translations are always going to be filtered through the translator, so it's always going to be kind of tricky. I could be worse, you could be dealing with something like this (http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/10/19/historic-photo-the-amazing-chameleon-photo-of-o-sensei-from-1922/).

There will be more to come, if I ever get the time...

Best,

Chris

gregstec
03-07-2012, 06:16 PM
When I use my internal power and resonate to level 10, female moose gather, my wife leaves the room for at least one hour and the temperature of the planet rises 1/10th of one degree :crazy: :drool: :hypno: :yuck: ....

Marc Abrams

Yeah, but I bet your dog stays close :D

Greg

Peter Goldsbury
03-07-2012, 07:44 PM
So stepping back from my off-topic/snarkiness for a moment, I really do appreciate this thread for what it brings up.

On one level, I'm stunned by the choices that Stevens made in his translation, but it also makes me hunger for what other information was simply glossed over or omitted by 'translators' in other texts I've read. We put so much importance on the printed word and for many of us, these texts have been carefully studied and revisited as we've developed in our arts. As a reader of a translation, we enter into a trust relationship with that translator to be the accurate voice of the original speaker/author. Personally, examples like this not only make me feel frustrated, but betrayed in a way.

Thanks Chris for bringing this one up, it's a great reminder about how we have to approach our research.

Hello Christian (I am calling you Christian to distinguish you from Christopher),

I was trained in the Greek and Latin Classics, which involved making many translations. At Harvard I recall two exercises: translating Cicero into Greek and translating the Gettysburg Address into the kind of Greek that Pericles would have used. (As it so happens, Lincoln's speech was based on classical Greek and Latin rhetorical models.) If you think of a spectrum with classical Japanese at one end and the kind of Japanese written by my university colleagues at the other, it is quite hard to know where to put Morihei Ueshiba.

I have just finished translating a piece for one of the departments at Hiroshima University. Apart from the choices involved in choosing the vocabulary and structure, I suppose I had the general aim of keeping to the original as closely as possible. However, it was a policy statement, with the usual Japanese rhetorical structure, and a similar policy statement written by a native English speaker would have been structured quite differently. The statement was aimed at overseas students, but not native English speakers. So I have actually prepared three versions: a fairly free version that is aimed at clarity for non-native English speakers; a translation as close as possible to the Japanese original, but which is harder to understand; and an annotated version (not for publication, but for university colleagues who can read English well), which discusses the choices I made.

Have you read George Steiner's After Babel: Aspects of Language and Translation? It was written a long time ago, in 1975, but the version I have gives a list of books and articles written on the theory and practice of translation. It is nearly 20 pages long and goes up only to 1997. I know that much more has been written in the 20 years since then.

So I have some sympathy for John Stevens.

Best wishes,

PAG

Tenyu
03-07-2012, 08:34 PM
What do you mean by contracted activation and decontracted activation? Please explain.

I've explained on an introductory level what contracted activation is and looks like, it's easily found using the forum's search function. Decontracted activation differs in that the connection with the infinite doesn't manifest vibration. Most of O Sensei's weapons and classical taijitsu were and are done in this manner, as the energy required is much lower. Our culture generally ridicules the Infinite and I expect no less in response to this post, irrespective of the overall tone of the forum which really is inevitable, of course it's had no choice in order to preserve our fundamental reality-negating myths.

Many people I know, including powerful martial artists, have told me their experiences with a traditional South American shaman were literally the hardest and most painful thing they've ever gone through. Shamans are well versed in holding space ‘within' the Infinite and when one is resistant, either partially or fully, either consciously or unconsciously, primarily to the intimacy, immediacy, and totality of the Infinite, of Reality, nothing short of absolute torture results. That this is common for beginners and advanced martial artists, shows just how disconnected we are from Reality. Aikido training, as O Sensei practiced, can provide the same doors but I'm under no illusion many Aikidoists would be better off beginning the healing process with the help of a traditional shaman(unfortunately their medicine is only legal in other countries) or equivalent experience. The painful irony being the majority have no idea, at least consciously, they even need healing as insanity, albeit ‘functional,' is rewarded and considered healthy in our society.

related excerpt (http://ascentofhumanity.com/chapter3-5.php) ::::

Paradoxically, the same principles of mechanism, reductionism, and determinism that promise certainty and control also afflict us with feelings of powerlessness and bewilderment. For when we include ourselves among the Newtonian masses of the universe, then we too are at the mercy of blind, impersonal forces that wholly determine our life's trajectory. In the ideology we inherited from the Scientific Revolution, free will, like all the other secondary qualities, is a mere construct, a statistical approximation, but not fundamentally real.

To recover meaning, sacredness, or free will apparently requires dualism, a separation of self out from the deterministic laws of the universe—an ultimately incoherent solution which alienates us all the more. Yet the alternative is even worse: nihilism, the Existentialist void—philosophies which, not accidentally, emerged at the peak of the Newtonian World-machine's reign in the early 20th century. This worldview so deeply imbues our intuitions and logic that we can barely conceive of a self that is neither dualistically distinct from matter, nor a deterministic automaton whose attributes of mind or soul are mere epiphenomena. Prior to the 20th century, these were the only alternatives science presented us, a bleak choice that remains with us today like a burr in the shoe and will continue to generate existential unease until the day comes when we finally digest the ramifications of 20th century science.

This choice reflects an apparent incompatibility of science and religion. Intuitively rejecting the "deterministic automaton" of science, evangelical friends of mine choose instead to disbelieve vast swaths of science—all the physics, biology, archeology, paleontology, geology, and astronomy that conflicts with the Biblical story of creation. Meanwhile, scientifically-oriented people occupy the equally unenviable position of denying their intuitions of a purpose, significance, and destiny to life. I often detect a wistfulness in self-described atheists, as if they wished there were soul, God, purpose and significance—Wouldn't it be nice!—but that unfortunately, sober reason dictates otherwise. Sometimes they cover up this wistfulness or sense of loss with an aggressive display of self-righteousness along the lines of "I can handle the merciless truth, but you need to comfort yourself with fairy stories." Others are aggressively cynical and reflexively derisive. The emotions, anger and sadness, that underly these responses arise from the monstrous robbery I describe above. Again, this robbery is not the removal of God from Heaven—it is the removal of divinity from the world. Whether God has been removed to Heaven, as by religion, or extirpated altogether, as by science, matters little.

Lee Salzman
03-08-2012, 12:45 AM
I've explained on an introductory level what contracted activation is and looks like, it's easily found using the forum's search function. Decontracted activation differs in that the connection with the infinite doesn't manifest vibration. Most of O Sensei's weapons and classical taijitsu were and are done in this manner, as the energy required is much lower. Our culture generally ridicules the Infinite and I expect no less in response to this post, irrespective of the overall tone of the forum which really is inevitable, of course it's had no choice in order to preserve our fundamental reality-negating myths.

Many people I know, including powerful martial artists, have told me their experiences with a traditional South American shaman were literally the hardest and most painful thing they've ever gone through. Shamans are well versed in holding space ‘within' the Infinite and when one is resistant, either partially or fully, either consciously or unconsciously, primarily to the intimacy, immediacy, and totality of the Infinite, of Reality, nothing short of absolute torture results. That this is common for beginners and advanced martial artists, shows just how disconnected we are from Reality. Aikido training, as O Sensei practiced, can provide the same doors but I'm under no illusion many Aikidoists would be better off beginning the healing process with the help of a traditional shaman(unfortunately their medicine is only legal in other countries) or equivalent experience. The painful irony being the majority have no idea, at least consciously, they even need healing as insanity, albeit ‘functional,' is rewarded and considered healthy in our society.

related excerpt (http://ascentofhumanity.com/chapter3-5.php) ::::

Paradoxically, the same principles of mechanism, reductionism, and determinism that promise certainty and control also afflict us with feelings of powerlessness and bewilderment. For when we include ourselves among the Newtonian masses of the universe, then we too are at the mercy of blind, impersonal forces that wholly determine our life's trajectory. In the ideology we inherited from the Scientific Revolution, free will, like all the other secondary qualities, is a mere construct, a statistical approximation, but not fundamentally real.

To recover meaning, sacredness, or free will apparently requires dualism, a separation of self out from the deterministic laws of the universe—an ultimately incoherent solution which alienates us all the more. Yet the alternative is even worse: nihilism, the Existentialist void—philosophies which, not accidentally, emerged at the peak of the Newtonian World-machine's reign in the early 20th century. This worldview so deeply imbues our intuitions and logic that we can barely conceive of a self that is neither dualistically distinct from matter, nor a deterministic automaton whose attributes of mind or soul are mere epiphenomena. Prior to the 20th century, these were the only alternatives science presented us, a bleak choice that remains with us today like a burr in the shoe and will continue to generate existential unease until the day comes when we finally digest the ramifications of 20th century science.

This choice reflects an apparent incompatibility of science and religion. Intuitively rejecting the "deterministic automaton" of science, evangelical friends of mine choose instead to disbelieve vast swaths of science—all the physics, biology, archeology, paleontology, geology, and astronomy that conflicts with the Biblical story of creation. Meanwhile, scientifically-oriented people occupy the equally unenviable position of denying their intuitions of a purpose, significance, and destiny to life. I often detect a wistfulness in self-described atheists, as if they wished there were soul, God, purpose and significance—Wouldn't it be nice!—but that unfortunately, sober reason dictates otherwise. Sometimes they cover up this wistfulness or sense of loss with an aggressive display of self-righteousness along the lines of "I can handle the merciless truth, but you need to comfort yourself with fairy stories." Others are aggressively cynical and reflexively derisive. The emotions, anger and sadness, that underly these responses arise from the monstrous robbery I describe above. Again, this robbery is not the removal of God from Heaven—it is the removal of divinity from the world. Whether God has been removed to Heaven, as by religion, or extirpated altogether, as by science, matters little.

So you as well neither believe that in the particular translation Chris Li points out of John Stevens, that Morihei Ueshiba meant to hold his stance with a 60 degree angle of the feet?

fred veer
03-08-2012, 01:03 AM
I think the problem is not in translating, but in describing something that cannot be described verbally to start with. Why physicist and engineers need to resort to mathematics, because language is deficient fore their purposes. You could describe aikido anatomically, this muscle contracts at time x for period y and that muscle relaxes at time q for period w. This still would not explain what happens. Probably why O-sensei said that oral instruction, the teacher instructing the student one to one is necessary. Some things cannot be transmitted by words alone. Even this oral instruction is limited if the students body is not responsive in the same as the teachers.O-Sensei's unique body conditioning resulted on something which he could not verbalize. probably also why you have to watch closely and steal the techniques. You might have to develop a language to express the problem, as mathematics describes physics, before you can begin to translate.

Chris Li
03-08-2012, 01:56 AM
I think the problem is not in translating, but in describing something that cannot be described verbally to start with. Why physicist and engineers need to resort to mathematics, because language is deficient fore their purposes. You could describe aikido anatomically, this muscle contracts at time x for period y and that muscle relaxes at time q for period w. This still would not explain what happens. Probably why O-sensei said that oral instruction, the teacher instructing the student one to one is necessary. Some things cannot be transmitted by words alone. Even this oral instruction is limited if the students body is not responsive in the same as the teachers.O-Sensei's unique body conditioning resulted on something which he could not verbalize. probably also why you have to watch closely and steal the techniques. You might have to develop a language to express the problem, as mathematics describes physics, before you can begin to translate.

Well, there is a language, at least 1,000 years old in Japan, and older than that in China, that was formulated specifically to describe and explain these ideas. Morihei Ueshiba used that language - the spirals and six directions are just one very basic example. More will be forthcoming.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
03-08-2012, 08:02 AM
Many people I know, including powerful martial artists, have told me their experiences with a traditional South American shaman were literally the hardest and most painful thing they've ever gone through. .

care to name a few? of course the experiences were painful, because they would beat you with a big and ugly sticks and then laugh at you and threw a big bonfire party in your honor.

after the first few sentences, my eyes glazed over and scratching my head (head lice - out sourcing my thinking to the lice), and said to meself, "what in the god name was he talking about about...about??!!!" about.

Marc Abrams
03-08-2012, 08:36 AM
care to name a few? of course the experiences were painful, because they would beat you with a big and ugly sticks and then laugh at you and threw a big bonfire party in your honor.

after the first few sentences, my eyes glazed over and scratching my head (head lice - out sourcing my thinking to the lice), and said to meself, "what in the god name was he talking about about...about??!!!" about.

Phi:

You clearly are not up to date on the very good harvest season in Humboldt County. That, taken together with Peak Oil flavored Kool Aid (unique flavor enhanced by exposure to the radiation released in Japan) helps one to understand the depths of all thoughts, intuitions, feelings and martial arts achievements.

Kind of brings me back to the smoke filled rooms of the 70's with all the amazing intellect being displayed, only to cease when Saturday Night Live began airing.......... ;)

Marc Abrams

Mark Freeman
03-08-2012, 09:22 AM
Many people I know, including powerful martial artists, have told me their experiences with a traditional South American shaman were literally the hardest and most painful thing they've ever gone through. Shamans are well versed in holding space ‘within' the Infinite and when one is resistant, either partially or fully, either consciously or unconsciously, primarily to the intimacy, immediacy, and totality of the Infinite, of Reality, nothing short of absolute torture results. That this is common for beginners and advanced martial artists, shows just how disconnected we are from Reality. Aikido training, as O Sensei practiced, can provide the same doors but I'm under no illusion many Aikidoists would be better off beginning the healing process with the help of a traditional shaman(unfortunately their medicine is only legal in other countries) or equivalent experience. The painful irony being the majority have no idea, at least consciously, they even need healing as insanity, albeit ‘functional,' is rewarded and considered healthy in our society.



The bolded sentence above is quite spectacular in it's ability to mean nothing to me. A bit like telling me that Priests are more connected to God than the rest of us.

I maybe one of the majority who are in need of healing without knowing that I need it, this ironically, I am painfully aware of:( Then again I might be completely sane and wonder what the poster is going on about.

In my unhealed view, I will quite happily avoid the Shaman/Witchdoctor remedies as I have seen some of the medicines they use (not in S America, admittedly, but in Africa and India).

Obviously, I will never understand Aikido:rolleyes:

Lee Salzman
03-08-2012, 11:23 AM
Well, there is a language, at least 1,000 years old in Japan, and older than that in China, that was formulated specifically to describe and explain these ideas. Morihei Ueshiba used that language - the spirals and six directions are just one very basic example. More will be forthcoming.

Best,

Chris

The language by itself is only valuable so long as it points to concepts we can actually agree upon. And if we are agreed upon the concepts, then the language is not worth much, I would go so far as to say it is even worthless or less than worthless. This is especially problematic because terms like spirals or six directions can be very flowery and poetic, so you can attach way too many stupid and unproductive meanings to them that sound similar. So just giving people a new set of words to misinterpret seems sketchy.

I am not actually sure we accomplish much merely by pointing out that we mistranslated his verbiage. It's a start, but then you need to prove that when he said six directions he meant the certain concept you are thinking of, rather than, say, decontracted activations and some killer shamanic weed that made everything feel sooooo cosmic and totally made his ki tingle. That's the real task you face.

There's no shortage of people in the world talking about dantiens or yin-yangs or qi or yi or li or jin(g) or taiji or... And then you watch them move on video or such, and it can border on embarassing.

Or to put it one other way: what matters here is the specific training models and the results they produce, not what we call them, since it's all just made-up English labels for stuff anyway. May as well just call it fibewudgetmiklenok, so long as it labels a concrete physical experience that has already been adequately taught. So what are we trying to show? That M. Ueshiba used some set of words, or that he used a specific training model that we can actually dissect and use, especially when we seem so hesitant to really define that meaningful concrete training model?

Chris Li
03-08-2012, 12:07 PM
The language by itself is only valuable so long as it points to concepts we can actually agree upon. And if we are agreed upon the concepts, then the language is not worth much, I would go so far as to say it is even worthless or less than worthless. This is especially problematic because terms like spirals or six directions can be very flowery and poetic, so you can attach way too many stupid and unproductive meanings to them that sound similar. So just giving people a new set of words to misinterpret seems sketchy.

I would say that most of the basic concepts are actually agreed upon and have been agreed upon for a long time - just not so much in the general Aikido community.

Even Morihei Ueshiba used and agreed with these basic concepts - as will become clear as we get further along.

My goal right now is mainly to point out the opening and broaden the conversation. There will be more detailed "how to do" publications forthcoming - not from me, but they're in the pipeline.

In the meantime I hope that this will spur people to re-examine some old assumptions and try to get some hands on time with one of the people who are putting these things into practice (Dan Harden, Mike Sigman, Minoru Akuzawa, Sam Chin - there are others, you get the idea).

Best,

Chris

Gerardo Torres
03-08-2012, 12:09 PM
The language by itself is only valuable so long as it points to concepts we can actually agree upon. And if we are agreed upon the concepts, then the language is not worth much, I would go so far as to say it is even worthless or less than worthless. This is especially problematic because terms like spirals or six directions can be very flowery and poetic, so you can attach way too many stupid and unproductive meanings to them that sound similar. So just giving people a new set of words to misinterpret seems sketchy.
I think that if people educated themselves in these concepts and models -- which didn't originate with Ueshiba but are much older -- there would be less room for misinterpretation. Reading is only part of the educational process -- one cannot fully realize how this language ties to Ueshiba's aikido without going out and training with people who can demonstrate and teach these things.

I am not actually sure we accomplish much merely by pointing out that we mistranslated his verbiage. It's a start, but then you need to prove that when he said six directions he meant the certain concept you are thinking of, rather than, say, decontracted activations and some killer shamanic weed that made everything feel sooooo cosmic and totally made his ki tingle. That's the real task you face.
Six directions, etc., are concepts that can be traced back to practices both in Japan and abroad long before Ueshiba's time, so if one knows these historical sources and understands such models, and can recognize the results in Ueshiba's movement and identify the words he used, then one can safely assume that Ueshiba was referring to those older models. Deconstructed activations, loving ki, etc., are stuff people invented after Ueshiba's time, so how can Ueshiba have been doing those things?

There's no shortage of people in the world talking about dantiens or yin-yangs or qi or yi or li or jin(g) or taiji or... And then you watch them move on video or such, and it can border on embarassing.
Or to put it one other way: what matters here is the specific training models and the results they produce, not what we call them, since it's all just made-up English labels for stuff anyway. May as well just call it fibewudgetmiklenok, so long as it labels a concrete physical experience that has already been adequately taught. So what are we trying to show? That M. Ueshiba used some set of words, or that he used a specific training model that we can actually dissect and use, especially when we seem so hesitant to really define that meaningful concrete training model?
I agree that results are the most important thing. But a common language would help though, as it would bring people together working on common goals. As for you last questions, I think that efforts such as this blog help clarify both the language and tie that language to specific known and proven training models.

ChrisMoses
03-08-2012, 12:38 PM
One of the doka that I've always wondered about is

The "Cross Of Aiki" (Love-Ki)
Of the structure of the Great and Swift Kami.
The meritorious deeds (samuhara) of the
Kami of the Eight Powers.

I'd love to know what the original said, it seems that there could be a lot in this one.

I realize with the doka, we also get into an area that could be described as "a translation of a memory" since (it's my understanding) that many of the doka were written down by nidai doshu and others as things they recalled OSensei saying, rather than a collection hand written by OSensei himself and then published.

Chris Li
03-08-2012, 12:49 PM
One of the doka that I've always wondered about is

The "Cross Of Aiki" (Love-Ki)
Of the structure of the Great and Swift Kami.
The meritorious deeds (samuhara) of the
Kami of the Eight Powers.

I'd love to know what the original said, it seems that there could be a lot in this one.

I realize with the doka, we also get into an area that could be described as "a translation of a memory" since (it's my understanding) that many of the doka were written down by nidai doshu and others as things they recalled OSensei saying, rather than a collection hand written by OSensei himself and then published.

千早ぶる神の仕組みの愛気十八大力の神のさむはら

This really requires a longer dissection than I can do here. I'll just point out that the Cross and the Eight Powers are both common and important themes in Ueshiba's writings. I'll also point out that these are pointers to specific technical references.

Best,

Chris

ChrisMoses
03-08-2012, 01:00 PM
千早ぶる神の仕組みの愛気十八大力の神のさむはら

This really requires a longer dissection than I can do here. I'll just point out that the Cross and the Eight Powers are both common and important themes in Ueshiba's writings. I'll also point out that these are pointers to specific technical references.

Best,

Chris

So I should check back in a couple hours? :D

Just kidding. Love to read it if/when you get around to it though.

Fred Little
03-08-2012, 01:24 PM
千早ぶる神の仕組みの愛気十八大力の神のさむはら

This really requires a longer dissection than I can do here. I'll just point out that the Cross and the Eight Powers are both common and important themes in Ueshiba's writings. I'll also point out that these are pointers to specific technical references.

Best,

Chris

I have no idea who is responsible for the translation Chris Moses cited for this. The kindest thing I can say is that it is an exceedingly free reworking of the original. Not that there's anything wrong with pop lit and Jonathan Livingston Seagull if you like that sort of thing.

Best,

FL

Chris Li
03-08-2012, 01:54 PM
I have no idea who is responsible for the translation Chris Moses cited for this. The kindest thing I can say is that it is an exceedingly free reworking of the original. Not that there's anything wrong with pop lit and Jonathan Livingston Seagull if you like that sort of thing.

Best,

FL

Wasn't me... :D

Best,

Chris

Tenyu
03-10-2012, 10:11 PM
So here goes -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJkSIHUinno&context=C3cbe72eADOEgsToPDskLAKT7bLW2r0mTAxsfwK3-b

Watch 0:39 -

If he was using internal power, there would be no need for tension in his face, clenching teeth, etc...

When completely successful nage is always at ease above his center, this everyone already knows. You're right I almost did lose to the Tengu in that video, but at least they didn't knock me over. They tore a ligament in my shoulder once when I was too stubborn to accept kaeshi waza and take ukemi.

How many Aikidoists here have fought any Tengu, let alone even begun recognizing them? O Sensei fought them many thousands of times, despite never being filmed. I've fought them over a thousand times. When done correctly fighting's impossible because you actually become the Tengu. Careful not to stare too long at them or me though, the whole point of facing them in the first place is to release them until they're needed again. There' many people in the world, cut off from the Infinite to no fault of their own, unable to express their Tengu subjectively as nage. Instead as unconscious uke, by definition, they misplace them objectively onto the world with disastrous effects in infinite-wanting magnitudes, little wonder we've culminated countless converging catastrophes, some of which I've posted on. Insanity isn't incidental, aberrational, or a ‘manageable cost' in our destruction of Gaia, it's the primary cause and condition.

related excerpt (http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/text.php) ::::

Under the sway of dualism, we have essentially sought to divide the world into two parts, one infinite and the other finite, and then to live wholly in the latter which, because it is finite, is amenable to control. We are like the frog who jumped into a well and, unable to see anything else or remember the vast world beyond, declared himself suzerain of all the universe. Our lordship over nature is at heart an egregious self-deception, because its first step is to attempt nature's precipitous reduction, which is equally a reduction of life, a reduction of experience, a reduction of feeling, and a reduction of being: a true Faustian exchange of the infinite for the finite.

This reduction comes in many guises and goes by many names. It is the domestication of the wild; it is the measuring and quantification of nature; it is the conversion of cultural, natural, social, and spiritual wealth into money. Because it is a reduction of life, violence is its inevitable accompaniment (actually I can think of no better definition of violence than the reduction of life); hence the rising crescendo of violence that has bled our civilization for thousands of years and approaches its feverish apogee as we conclude the present wholesale destruction of entire species, oceans, ecosystems, languages, cultures, and peoples.

Because our demarcation of self and other is a false one, the violence we commit upon the other is actually committed upon ourselves. Here again we find a warning from some of our most venerable spiritual teachings. The doctrine of karma states that the effects of our actions are inescapable, that what we do to others we do to ourselves. Yet, characteristically, our religious institutions twist it to mean, "Be good or you will be punished." The Golden Rule works the same way. Since its original meaning, "As you do unto others, so you do unto yourself," is incoherent nonsense to the dualistic mind, we have perverted it into a rule, a standard of behavior to strive toward. Originally, both the doctrine of karma and the Golden Rule were mere statements of fact based on a different conception of self.

The statement "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 22:39, and elsewhere) falls victim to the same dualistic misinterpretation. Instead of a rule, we might construe it as a simple statement of fact: As you love your neighbor, so do you love yourself. Self and neighbor are not actually separate. Jesus was not going around uttering simple moral platitudes. However, as he was speaking to people immersed in the myth of the separate self, it is no wonder that his teachings were immediately misinterpreted and written down in their current form. The prescriptive and proscriptive forms of spiritual teachings—that is, the do's and don'ts—coincide with the institutional interests of the political powers that coopt all religious movements from the moment of their founders' deaths, if not before.

Marc Abrams
03-11-2012, 09:31 AM
When completely successful nage is always at ease above his center, this everyone already knows. You're right I almost did lose to the Tengu in that video, but at least they didn't knock me over. They tore a ligament in my shoulder once when I was too stubborn to accept kaeshi waza and take ukemi.

How many Aikidoists here have fought any Tengu, let alone even begun recognizing them? O Sensei fought them many thousands of times, despite never being filmed. I've fought them over a thousand times. When done correctly fighting's impossible because you actually become the Tengu. Careful not to stare too long at them or me though, the whole point of facing them in the first place is to release them until they're needed again. There' many people in the world, cut off from the Infinite to no fault of their own, unable to express their Tengu subjectively as nage. Instead as unconscious uke, by definition, they misplace them objectively onto the world with disastrous effects in infinite-wanting magnitudes, little wonder we've culminated countless converging catastrophes, some of which I've posted on. Insanity isn't incidental, aberrational, or a ‘manageable cost' in our destruction of Gaia, it's the primary cause and condition.

.

Funny you mention that you fought a tengu. We were very "fortunate" at Shin-Budo Kai to have as a student for awhile, the psychic wife of Steven Seagal. Her brief claim to fame was being brought on the Howard Stern show after she lost a close battle for wacko of the week to a guy who had a long-term, love relationship with his dog. Howard Stern felt so bad that she lost, that he believed that the right thing to do was to bring her to the studio in order to interview her life on the radio.

This woman fought many, many tengu. To her, they were Ki Vampires. They would suck the Ki from her feet during practice. When she was told that she was not ready for a test, she became indignant and complained that it was no fair that the other students had only one uke, while she had many (alluding to all of those Ki Vampires). Maybe you two know each other? Maybe you two are related in some sort of tengu way?

Thanks for allowing me to reminisce about some of the good old days in training. Now, did you have any lucid point that you were trying to make?

Marc Abrams

Tenyu
03-11-2012, 10:52 AM
Marc,

You may not believe it but the world is in deep trouble. We're experiencing non-linear transformations on a scale that is nearly beyond comprehension and there's no historical precedent for this. Despite all the banter you participate in on this forum, I know your intentions are well. There will be times in our future where we will all be called to situations none of us have ever been in before. I know your Aikido will succeed in the most difficult of circumstances. In fact I don't know of any regular poster here whose Aikido I think wouldn't succeed. I have no ill will toward you or anyone else. You don't have to accept this truce but perhaps you'll consider it. I'm not asking you to stop the kind-hearted jokes either.

gregstec
03-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Marc,

You may not believe it but the world is in deep trouble. We're experiencing non-linear transformations on a scale that is nearly beyond comprehension and there's no historical precedent for this. Despite all the banter you participate in on this forum, I know your intentions are well. There will be times in our future where we will all be called to situations none of us have ever been in before. I know your Aikido will succeed in the most difficult of circumstances. In fact I don't know of any regular poster here whose Aikido I think wouldn't succeed. I have no ill will toward you or anyone else. You don't have to accept this truce but perhaps you'll consider it. I'm not asking you to stop the kind-hearted jokes either.

Who you gonna call ? :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyRqR56aCKc

Lee Salzman
03-11-2012, 11:47 AM
Who you gonna call ? :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyRqR56aCKc

His comment rather reminded me of this:


Non-Euclidean calculus and quantum physics are enough to stretch any brain; and when one mixes them with folklore, and tries to trace a strange background of multi-dimensional reality behind the ghoulish hints of Gothic tales and the wild whispers of the chimney-corner, one can hardly expect to be wholly free from mental tension.

Marc Abrams
03-11-2012, 03:13 PM
Marc,

You may not believe it but the world is in deep trouble. We're experiencing non-linear transformations on a scale that is nearly beyond comprehension and there's no historical precedent for this. Despite all the banter you participate in on this forum, I know your intentions are well. There will be times in our future where we will all be called to situations none of us have ever been in before. I know your Aikido will succeed in the most difficult of circumstances. In fact I don't know of any regular poster here whose Aikido I think wouldn't succeed. I have no ill will toward you or anyone else. You don't have to accept this truce but perhaps you'll consider it. I'm not asking you to stop the kind-hearted jokes either.

Tenyu:

My post was not a joke and was entirely truthful. Your own personal tengu are as significant and real to you as that person I mentioned. The larger issue was that your previous post, in it's entirety, had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

I have children in the same age bracket as you. My deceased grandfather lived in a world that included going from horse and buggy to rocket ships to the moon. He lived thru two world wars and a host of other world wide calamities. In my life time, there has been numerous wars and atrocities. I use to punch holes in cards to feed into machines to program them to do basic things (computers- using basic language). Now I speak into my multipurpose device (iphone 4s) and it does what i ask it to do. The rate of change has dramatically increased. Some futuristic thinkers look at this as a good thing, while others see the imminent demise of humans. My scale of viewing the world is very, very different than yours. All of the major changes in the last two hundred years have been at a scale never seen before. In each era, people have talked about imminent doom. Life will continue to move in this direction until something else happens......

There is no war between us that needs any kind of truce. The topic of the thread has to do with the growing evidence that some of what we use to believe as new gospel, was not gospel at all, not new, and not fully understood at that time. The new research is pointing out a link to a long-standing tradition that many people missed. In many ways, that is like life. When we are full of piss and vinegar, we think that we know all and own the world. As we get older, we chuckle at how stupid were back then and enjoy/struggle with the radical changes of a new day, while enjoy/struggle with the larger link to long-standing traditions. And so it goes.......

Marc Abrams

Tenyu
03-11-2012, 07:21 PM
All of the major changes in the last two hundred years have been at a scale never seen before. In each era, people have talked about imminent doom. Life will continue to move in this direction until something else happens......


related excerpt (http://ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-1.php) ::::

For at least 200 years now, futurists have been predicting the imminent rise of a technological utopia, drawing on the premise that technology will free humankind from labor, suffering, disease, and possibly even death. Underlying this view is a defining story of our civilization: that science has brought us from a state of ignorance to an increasing understanding of the physical universe, and that technology has brought us from a state of dependency on nature's whims to an increasing mastery of the material world. Someday in the future, goes the story, our understanding and control will be complete.

Philosophers of science will protest that it is already well-established, even in conventional circles, that perfect knowledge and perfect control of the universe is probably impossible (due to such things as mathematical incompleteness, quantum indeterminacy, and sensitive dependence on initial conditions). Be that as it may, this information has yet to filter down to the level of popular consciousness, even among scientists. What I am talking about is the faith encapsulated in the saying, "Science will surely explain it someday." It is the faith that the answer is there, the answer is accessible to science, and that science itself is well-grounded in its primary principles and methods. The technological corollary to this faith in science is our faith in the technological fix. Whatever the problem, the solution lies in technology—finding a way to solve the problem. Science will find an answer. Technology will find a way.

Underlying the Technological Program is a kind of arrogance, that that we can control, manage, and improve on nature. Many of the dreams of Gee Whiz technology are based on this. Control the weather! Conquer death! Download your consciousness onto a computer! Onward to space! All of these goals involve controlling or transcending nature, being independent of the earth, independent of the body. Nanotechnology will allow us to design new molecules and build them atom by atom. Perhaps someday we will even engineer the laws of physics itself. From an initial status of subordination to nature, the Technological Program aims to give us mastery over it, an ambition with deep cultural foundations. Descartes' aspiration that science would make us the "lords and possessors of nature" merely restated an age-old ambition: "And God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28).

Janet Rosen
03-11-2012, 09:13 PM
Any thread devolving into Tengu, Ki vampires and Cthulu is NOT going to end well.....

gregstec
03-11-2012, 09:21 PM
Any thread devolving into Tengu, Ki vampires and Cthulu is NOT going to end well.....

Yeah, maybe not - but it has the potential of being entertaining :)

Greg

Lee Salzman
03-12-2012, 01:24 AM
Any thread devolving into Tengu, Ki vampires and Cthulu is NOT going to end well.....

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Janet Rosen
03-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

aaargh the gibbering shapeless mass boiling up from the ...
glub
glub
glub

Matt Fisher
03-12-2012, 01:27 PM
aaargh the gibbering shapeless mass boiling up from the ...
glub
glub
glub

Burp!!!

;)

Matt

Gerardo Torres
03-12-2012, 04:15 PM
And suddenly I find two of my favorite websites, The Onion and Aikiweb, rolled into one. :D

That, or I expect Ashton Kutcher to punk'd us any moment.

DH
03-25-2012, 03:38 PM
I found it odd that John would correct Chris -as not being qualified to discuss these things- when it is John himself who is clearly lacking. As a translator John is not capable of establishing the text or offering informed commentary on his choices because he is obviously unfamiliar with the corpus of internal power training and the terms used in the sphere of knowledge existing throughout Asia. Hence, six direction training has little meaning beyond a random collection of words and his opting for Hanmi as a default "translation". Worthy of note was his use of swirling the legs in his response to Chris, instead of spiraling. The very concept of spiraling (ages old) has no real meaning to John so his choices; swirling instead of spiraling are all the same to him.

What we are seeing in John's work is a distinct failure in translation ability aided by a demonstrable failure to understand these basic tenants of internal training in the Asian arts themselves. It would have been a better response if John were to ASK Chris why he chose certain concepts and the use of certain terminology that has been consistent across muliplte cultures. Sadly instead John chose a default "I studied with so and so and have this rank so you are not qualified." In the present age, this tactic and mindset is continuing to fail rather miserably in both skill and overall depth of understanding and context. The former in one-on-one encounters, the later in informed scrutiny of his work.

Chris Li's embarking on his own journey of learning Internal power and aiki has made him the one eminently more qualified to handle the words of Ueshiba than John ever was. The newer more educated and informed translations by Chis Li place Ueshiba in proper context for what he was; a scholar, a student of internal power training and aiki. His heretofore missing words and now properly translated terms are now finally consistent with his movement and teaching.

Currently, I am part of a process that is placing Ueshiba's words in context within the internal training throughout Asia and continuing to define his concepts into actual training models that work and serve to fulfill their promise. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the Japanese have failed almost completely in doing the same thing-some are openly admitting it.

This is not the old "Ki wars" and "Aiki wars" that happened on E-budo, Aikido Journal and Aikiweb years ago with the ki and aiki people not being able to clearly demonstrate unusual and usable power and convince any one of anything. Some of whom were openly ridiculed.
While camps are clearly divided, today no one who adheres to the post war model has ever been able to actually stand against those who are well versed in Ueshiba's way. This is a new day of men and women with demonstrable power and skills that people are having an extremely hard time dealing with in person-to the extent that is an almost 100% conversion rate. Because of the real power being displayed, today there are a growing number of teachers getting educated in Ueshiba's teachings. As the teachers currently training in Ueshiba's methods continue to develop, in time Ueshiba's truths will win and reclaim his own art back from those who had turned it into a mere shadow of it's former power under Ueshiba.
It is a great time to be practicing the art of Aikido.
Dan

Chris Li
03-26-2012, 03:53 PM
"Budoshugyosha" posted an article (in French, but readable with Google Translate) that comments on Kamae and discusses the same section of "Budo" that I discussed in Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-02-27/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae):

http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-a-propos-du-kamae-partie-1-102280405.html

Best,

Chris

chillzATL
03-26-2012, 04:17 PM
So odd to see Ueshiba dressed in normal pants and a shirt. It's as if he were...human.

ChrisMoses
03-26-2012, 04:59 PM
Weird, looks like he's wearing a stable belt (http://www.stablebelts.co.uk/japangrounddefence.html) like the Toyama ryu guys from around that period. Wonder if these photos were done for any of his military associations? Actually the outfit looks pretty much like the SDF physical fitness uniform mentioned in the linked article.

Chris Li
03-26-2012, 09:18 PM
"Budoshugyosha" posted an article (in French, but readable with Google Translate) that comments on Kamae and discusses the same section of "Budo" that I discussed in Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-02-27/morihei-ueshiba-budo-and-kamae):

http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/article-a-propos-du-kamae-partie-1-102280405.html

Best,

Chris

Here's the Google Translate version:

http://tinyurl.com/french-kamae

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
03-27-2012, 02:31 AM
Here's the Google Translate version:

http://tinyurl.com/french-kamae

Best,

Chris

Here's the Google Translate version of Part 2 of the Budoshugyosha blog (wish I could write that fast!):

http://tinyurl.com/french-kamae2

Best,

Chris

chillzATL
03-28-2012, 07:42 AM
It seems that from a foot positioning and general posture the kamae from Shioda to Shirata is basically the same. Odd considering Shioda said they "figured it out" when students weren't getting it. It would seem this came from Ueshiba, though "figured it out" could be another way of saying "I remembered something sensei used to have us do".

Chris Li
04-03-2014, 04:39 PM
Now available in Spanish (http://www.aikidoenlinea.com/blog/morihei-ueshiba-budo-y-kamae-por-chris-li), courtesy of Aikido en linea. The original English version is available here (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/morihei-ueshiba-budo-kamae/).

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
07-14-2016, 08:39 PM
Now available in Italian (https://enriconeami.net/2016/05/28/budo-kamae/), courtesy of Enrico Neami. The original English version is available on the Aikido Sangenkai blog (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/morihei-ueshiba-budo-kamae/).

Best,

Chris