If a mosquito landed on your arm.

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[dps]

If a mosquito landed on your arm would you;

A. Harmonize with it, allowing it to bite your arm and withdraw blood for substenance?

B. "Do no harm" and compassionately remove and release it.

C. Smack the disease ridden blood sucker dead.

D. I don't do Aikido.

dps

[robin_jet_alt]

C. Some things can be taken to extremes.

[kewms]

C.

I think even the Dalai Lama admits to swatting mosquitos.

Was Morihei Ueshiba even a vegetarian?

Katherine

[Hanna B]

If it has already started sucking, I let it finish and then fly off. The mosquito bite gets more swollen and itchy if you don't let it suck back some of the anticoagulants and other stuff that it "injects" before sucking.

So killing it straight away might actually make things worse.

But if it hasn't, I happily swat it.

[Mary Eastland]

E...This option wasn't listed but I live in the woods of New England so my arm will be sprayed with bug repellant and the mosquito will land elsewhere. ;)

[Michael Douglas]

C
I hate those beggars.
Kill 'em all!
Kill their children!
Wipe them from the face of the earth!
Bloomin mosquitos, I'm glad we don't have them here. Killed 'em y'see?

[DH]

If a mosquito landed on your arm would you;

A. Harmonize with it, allowing it to bite your arm and withdraw blood for substenance?

B. "Do no harm" and compassionately remove and release it.

C. Smack the disease ridden blood sucker dead.

D. I don't do Aikido.

dps
Be like most martial artists- avoid the confrontation and exposure all together.
In this case move to Hawaii or Seattle where there are hardly any at all..... mosquitos that is-not martial artists...hmm...wait a minute. :D :D :D

[graham christian]

Ha, ha. From a Buddhist viewpoint it could be an old relative of yours. There again, could be an old enemy.

But back to harmony. If you want to harmonize you can learn how to, choice once again.

I know of one tried and tested 'nutritional' solution. Brewers yeast. Take brewers yeast and they keep away from you.

Mechanics based on what they want which is the sugar in your blood. If your blood tastes sweet the message goes out 'Dinners up!!!'. The old insect internet. Brewers yeast makes it not only bitter tasting but repellant. Does you good too.

Or else, as the mosquito approaches it finds you standing behind it.

G.

[Pauliina Lievonen]

F. Make sure there aren't any still puddles of water for the little suckers to breed near your house. Wear protective clothing and repellant. Stay indoors in the evenings. Put nets in your windows. Yell at people who leave the door open too long.

If all else fails, move south. :p

kvaak
Pauliina
who grew up in mosquito-country...

[Thomas Campbell]

A mosquito would not be able to penetrate the Qi-armoured skin of a true internal martial artist, therefore these questions would not arise. :straightf

[gregstec]

A mosquito would not be able to penetrate the Qi-armoured skin of a true internal martial artist, therefore these questions would not arise. :straightf

Yes, yes, that is it! - a ki shield :eek:

Greg

[hughrbeyer]

1. The Dalai Lama eats meat.

2. If that mosquito is your great-great-grandfather, he's a mosquito to work out some very bad karma. It would be immoral not to swat the disease-ridden bloodsucker dead.

[Marc Abrams]

1. The Dalai Lama eats meat.

2. If that mosquito is your great-great-grandfather, he's a mosquito to work out some very bad karma. It would be immoral not to swat the disease-ridden bloodsucker dead.

+3

Three point shot, all net, no rim !!!! :D :D :D

Marc Abrams

[Gorgeous George]

C.

I think even the Dalai Lama admits to swatting mosquitos.

Was Morihei Ueshiba even a vegetarian?

Katherine

The dalai lama eats 'meat', so I don't think he's any sort of moral example to refer to.

FWIW

Edit: beat to the punch.

[ramenboy]

A mosquito would not be able to penetrate the Qi-armoured skin of a true internal martial artist, therefore these questions would not arise. :straightf

thats true. my ki isn't strong enough yet. so i'd make sure i had enough hot sauce in my system

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VICaWgD-76w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen><iframe>

then i wouldn't even have to worry about swatting it...

kuso... won't let me embed the file! i hope you guys know the spot i'm talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VICaWgD-76w

[Kevin Leavitt]

I'm a vegetarian, but not a vegan. I try and limit what I kill, but I also realize that everyone is a hypocrite.

I really believe killing is wrong and really try to not do it if possible, but I am also think it is necessary at time to have to do so giving the conditions.

Killing mosquitos...well I think it is necessary to do this at times. ( I just got back from a malarial country and heading to a malarial infested place in a few weeks as well). Seeing the suffering mosquitos cause in the world, I think at some level it is a lesser evil.

What is most important is not if we kill the mosquito but the attitude and thoughts as we do it.

I will take the time to take a spider out of the room, or other bugs to set them free. However, mosquitos, you can't catch them and they do harm.

Looking at the big picture, as we should, I think it is better to prevent. Reducing standing water, taking away their habitat, using mosquito netting and fans where possible can be good alternatives to toxic sprays and killing.

[lbb]

C. Mosquitos are flying syringes and I don't need to share whatever they're carrying.

[Walter Martindale]

C. I grew up in Winnipeg when we used to dance in the DDT fogging spray because it would kill the CLOUDS of skeeters. Mum didn't like what it did to the songbirds (it wasn't good) but when you couldn't go outdoors after 5 in the evening or before 10 AM on hot days... Kill em all!

[SteliosPapadakis]

C! Give 'em hell!
:mad:

[graham christian]

Do Aikido...

Obviously people don't know the rules for for bloodsuckers. If you don't invite them in then they can't enter. Lol.....

G.

[Janet Rosen]

Swat em dead

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I'll send the mosquito to join its honored ancestors.

[Hanna B]

C. Smack the disease ridden blood sucker dead.


Do you have malaria in the US? (not sure if David is from the US but the majority of the forum population are) What other diseases do they spread?

There's a part of my country where there's so many mosquitos they use biological warfare on them. The bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis produces something that is toxic to the mosquito larvae, so they spread the bacterium in the wetlands where the mosquitos hatch. It was very controversial when they started, but I think the concensus now is that there's no big downsides to it.

If our mosquitos started transmitting diseases... dear lord. Huge parts of my country would be impossible for humans to inhabit, probably.

I much prefer mosquitos to black flies, btw. (Our black flies don't transmit diseases either.)

[Hanna B]

Our native population, the sami, is said to have had their own traditional method to deal with mosquitos. There's plenty of mosquitos in their part of the country...

In the beginning of the summer you go the the marshes, since that is where they hatch. Then you strip off all your clothes, and let them bite you all over.

You will be so much bitten you get ill for a couple of days. But after that, what mosquito bite you get don't get red, swollen and itchy - and so you can just ignore the mosquitos and let them bite.

(A relative of mine, now dead, claimed he used this method but it was probably a lie. He used a mix a now forbidden mosquito repellant and a brownish black liquid that's a byproduct when you make tar. Maybe it's just a myth anyway...)

[lbb]

Do you have malaria in the US? (not sure if David is from the US but the majority of the forum population are) What other diseases do they spread?

It's rare but not completely unheard of. It was more widespread in the past, and the climate certainly supports it. As for what other diseases they spread...as I said, they're flying syringes. In the USA they carry various forms of encephalitis and West Nile virus as well. As its name indicates, West Nile didn't originate here, and it spread like crazy once it got here, so as far as what that mosquito that bites you tomorrow might be carrying, all bets are off.

I much prefer mosquitos to black flies, btw. (Our black flies don't transmit diseases either.)

Yeah, you don't generally find them together unless you're real unlucky. Black flies are savage.

[phitruong]

lived in Minnesota for a number of years. it was called the land of 10,000 lakes and a billion mosquito. at dust came, the entire state participated in the synchronized slapping musical. one time i slapped myself so hard, i ended up in a southern state, married with children, and stayed there ever since. :D

[jackie adams]

Being new to this forum, and this being my first time being a part of a discussion here, I feel this is a discussing I can safely chime in on.

I take the internal path, and the external path dealing with mosquitos. Taking garlic pills, and eating spicy cuisine, that is the internal approach. The external approach is mosquito lotion, or just plain lotion (does a fair job).

My father's eldest brother when in the Viet Nam work suggested doing as he did. It is a real macho method. Take the sulfur off a match head or two and than swallow them. I'd say that is the serious internal method. I'd do it only when in a pinch.

I have been in many parts of the country, and desired by many a mosquitos far and wide. But there is no greater stealth then the gulf coast mosquitos, and I mean all of them. You don't hear them coming, you don't feel them taking blood. 10 mins later you have know where they have been feeding on your body. Killing or not killing them makes no difference, cause you can't kill them if you don't know they are there. If you do see one and opt to kill it, well it's too late the damage has been done. If you're in a place where you are being eaten alive by mosquitos, your attempts at killing them is a losing battle.

[dalen7]

Be like most martial artists- avoid the confrontation and exposure all together.
In this case move to Hawaii or Seattle where there are hardly any at all..... mosquitos that is-not martial artists...hmm...wait a minute. :D :D :D

Suppose it depends on what part of Hawaii... the guys in Puna, [Acres, Waa Waa, etc.] seem to have serious mosquito problems. ;)

[Janet Rosen]

This is a joke one of my elderly clients, originally a squirrel hunting Mississippian, told me:
A bunch of California fellers were on a hunting trip back out east. Come nighttime and they hunkered down in their tents. One fella had to answer nature's call and went out. He come back in a big hurry, grabbing his stuff and hollering "We gotta get outa here. They got skeeters here big as sin and they're spotlighting us!"

[Kevin Leavitt]

If a mosquito landed on your arm would you;

A. Harmonize with it, allowing it to bite your arm and withdraw blood for substenance?

B. "Do no harm" and compassionately remove and release it.

C. Smack the disease ridden blood sucker dead.

D. I don't do Aikido.

dps

Hey David, just a thought back to your OP.

On A....just a thought. If you are allowing him to bite you are you really harmonizing with him? I mean, sure that is one perspective, but he could be giving you a disease and kill you. He is harming you. so is that really harmonizing or submission? Harmonizing IMO, is a WIN/WIN situation. That is, there is a mutual benefit. How do you benefit from the bite?

You propose a tough question! Thanks!

[LinTal]

Option Z) Take a shower and wear deodorant. : ) Apparently they're attracted to the minerals left on your skin after you sweat...

[graham christian]

Hey David, just a thought back to your OP.

On A....just a thought. If you are allowing him to bite you are you really harmonizing with him? I mean, sure that is one perspective, but he could be giving you a disease and kill you. He is harming you. so is that really harmonizing or submission? Harmonizing IMO, is a WIN/WIN situation. That is, there is a mutual benefit. How do you benefit from the bite?

You propose a tough question! Thanks!

Another thought for you. If its landed you wouldn't feel it till it bites therefor what did anyone learn from killing it. If that's their solution all the time then they will continue to get bitten.

A bit like 'if he hit me I'd bash him' mentality.

Saw a program on t.v. recently where they were using a machine that actually attracts mosquitos. It was used to do a mosquito count for forecasting. Not much different to a pollen count. That just shows you can lead something to somewhere.

Saw another one too where a couple are in the desert covered by bees. The man is actually enjoying reading a book at the same time, completely not bothered by it. His explanation? He said they just want the water from any sweat, just a drink, they don't want me. So in this case you can give them what they want and have no problem. Also shows resistance would get you stung more than likely.

The point of this story? You can prevent something wanting to attack you or you can give the something what it wants as it's of no harm to you or you can lead it elsewhere to what it's looking for.

I think those who take the mosquito analogy would action go for prevention don't you?

There's always a harmonious solution, it's whether we are wise enough to find it I say. Thus there is always Aikido.

Regards G.

[LinTal]

Saw another one too where a couple are in the desert covered by bees. The man is actually enjoying reading a book at the same time, completely not bothered by it. His explanation? He said they just want the water from any sweat, just a drink, they don't want me. So in this case you can give them what they want and have no problem. Also shows resistance would get you stung more than likely.

The point of this story? You can prevent something wanting to attack you or you can give the something what it wants as it's of no harm to you or you can lead it elsewhere to what it's looking for.

Okaaaay, that's a very interesting story...

You would need to put yourself in a vulnerable position first though, and if you did not know the actual intention of the 'bee'...

Your stance would actually be passive until you figured out what was going on. In a non-perfect world, that would be more serious than a simple beesting. Aikido involves taking initiative and action, not being a victim. In other words, if you refused to take any kind of action, how could you qualify that as aikido?

(Ps, not trolling, just inquisitive!)

[graham christian]

Okaaaay, that's a very interesting story...

You would need to put yourself in a vulnerable position first though, and if you did not know the actual intention of the 'bee'...

Your stance would actually be passive until you figured out what was going on. In a non-perfect world, that would be more serious than a simple beesting. Aikido involves taking initiative and action, not being a victim. In other words, if you refused to take any kind of action, how could you qualify that as aikido?

(Ps, not trolling, just inquisitive!)

Granted, but who said anything about vulnerable position? The couple and bees scenario shows they are not in a vulnerable position but a strong harmonious one. In this case resisting would be a vulnerable position. So the question is what led them to this position?

Wisdom. They not only knew what they were dealing with but through compassion realized a solution which didn't bother them and yet helped the bees. Harmony and I would say active, full of initiative for they could quite easily have stayed in the tent, zipped it up, surrounded themselves with nets and prevented the bees having any water. They could also have put out a bowl of water outside the tent but then they wouldn't be able to lay outside, under a canope, enjoying the scenery and fresh air.

All different harmonious solutions. All good.

Making an enemy of something that isn't your enemy is the vulnerable position.

Regards.G.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Bee example is not the same. There is a no issue in your example because there is no intent on the bee's to introduce harm to get what they want. therefore, it is not an example preventing violence. There is no intent at all.

A mosquito on the other hand to get what he wants is causing harm and has the intent so to speak. Not that there is a conscious thought to cause harm, but none-the-less harm is caused to the host and that presents a completely different set of circumstances that must be dealt with.

There are many solutions to deal with this from chemicals, to netting, to reducing standing water, or swatting them. the fact remains though, that if you remain in that environment and do nothing you will get bitten.

[DonMagee]

Ha, ha. From a Buddhist viewpoint it could be an old relative of yours. There again, could be an old enemy.

But back to harmony. If you want to harmonize you can learn how to, choice once again.

I know of one tried and tested 'nutritional' solution. Brewers yeast. Take brewers yeast and they keep away from you.

Mechanics based on what they want which is the sugar in your blood. If your blood tastes sweet the message goes out 'Dinners up!!!'. The old insect internet. Brewers yeast makes it not only bitter tasting but repellant. Does you good too.

Or else, as the mosquito approaches it finds you standing behind it.

G.

I actually tried this and garlic (at different times) both simply didn't work for me any better than nothing at all. I did see a few studies that did show that a diet high in B1 (brewers yeast has a lot of B1) can have a small effect in mosquito landings.

When you eat brewers yeast, you basically are getting a boost in B vitamins (but not B12) , protein, and Chromium. People think the vitamin B (thiamine) is what causes them to not bite, that diets high in B1 will cause you to sweat it out of your skin and that the little buggers can't stand the smell.

I personally will stick by plain old DEET.

[graham christian]

I actually tried this and garlic (at different times) both simply didn't work for me any better than nothing at all. I did see a few studies that did show that a diet high in B1 (brewers yeast has a lot of B1) can have a small effect in mosquito landings.

When you eat brewers yeast, you basically are getting a boost in B vitamins (but not B12) , protein, and Chromium. People think the vitamin B (thiamine) is what causes them to not bite, that diets high in B1 will cause you to sweat it out of your skin and that the little buggers can't stand the smell.

I personally will stick by plain old DEET.

Really? I tried it in the Isle of Man and it worked for me while fishing yet others got bitten. I had brewers yeast taken in a drink (not the debittered stuff).

Don't see any relation to B1 though or sweating. Don't think B1 makes you sweat either. It can sober you up though.

Regards.G.

[Mark Freeman]

Bees I like, not only do they provide us with succulent honey, they pollinate most of our food crops. Without them, we would have a hard time feeding ourselves.

Mosquitoes on the other hand are little bastards, they bring untold misery to millions of people through the transmission of malaria and their bites can be really unpleasant.

I quite happily harmonize my hand with my skin when one happens to land....a species extinction I would not mourn.

regards,

Mark

[dps]

Hey David, just a thought back to your OP.

On A....just a thought. If you are allowing him to bite you are you really harmonizing with him? I mean, sure that is one perspective, but he could be giving you a disease and kill you. He is harming you. so is that really harmonizing or submission? Harmonizing IMO, is a WIN/WIN situation. That is, there is a mutual benefit. How do you benefit from the bite?

You propose a tough question! Thanks!

Harmony as in, how far will you go to help another living thing, even though your help is detrimental to you.

As far as mosquitoes go, I do not have to think about it, as soon as I hear the buzz or feel the bite I get slap happy.

dps

[graham christian]

http://www.megacatch.com/

Some information for those interested.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

Don't want to scare you folks in the U.S. But....

http://libcloud.s3.amazonaws.com/93/df/1/959/5/Issue_brief_GE_mosquitoes_in_U.S.pdf

G.

[DonMagee]

Really? I tried it in the Isle of Man and it worked for me while fishing yet others got bitten. I had brewers yeast taken in a drink (not the debittered stuff).

Don't see any relation to B1 though or sweating. Don't think B1 makes you sweat either. It can sober you up though.

Regards.G.

It's not that B1 makes you sweat, it is that B1 is excreted though your pores. That's the premise on how both garlic and brewers yeast work in terms of fighting off the bugs. I did read a study that showed up to a 60% decrease in landings on subjects that took brewers yeast for a few days prior to exposure. In theory, any diet high in B1 should have the same effect.

However, I think everyone's bio-chemistry is different, and for me, even with the yeast I still needed DEET to keep myself from being eaten alive. Garlic faired the same (although I still eat a lot of garlic because it's mighty tasty).

[graham christian]

http://www.megacatch.com/mosquitofacts.html

Ahhh, posted the wrong link above, I meant this one.

Regards.G..

[graham christian]

It's not that B1 makes you sweat, it is that B1 is excreted though your pores. That's the premise on how both garlic and brewers yeast work in terms of fighting off the bugs. I did read a study that showed up to a 60% decrease in landings on subjects that took brewers yeast for a few days prior to exposure. In theory, any diet high in B1 should have the same effect.

However, I think everyone's bio-chemistry is different, and for me, even with the yeast I still needed DEET to keep myself from being eaten alive. Garlic faired the same (although I still eat a lot of garlic because it's mighty tasty).

In the link above it mentions sweat and says it's the octanol in it that smells like dinner to a mozzie, doesn't mention B1 but does mention biotin.

Good reading anyway.

Regards.G.

[phitruong]

My father's eldest brother when in the Viet Nam work suggested doing as he did. It is a real macho method. Take the sulfur off a match head or two and than swallow them. I'd say that is the serious internal method. I'd do it only when in a pinch.
.

should have asked the vietnamese. eats lemon grass.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Harmony as in, how far will you go to help another living thing, even though your help is detrimental to you.

As far as mosquitoes go, I do not have to think about it, as soon as I hear the buzz or feel the bite I get slap happy.

dps

I understand what you are saying...however, I think I would call this compassion, not harmony.

The "stasis" of harmony is disrupted by the fact that the mosquito causes harm to you. Does that make sense?

Personally I think this is a very important perspective to consider. We talk about Harmony all the time in Aikido, but I think alot of what we discuss is not harmony at all, but compassion.

To me Harmony represents a mid point between harm and no harm. It doesn't matter which party disrupts it, or the ethics, morality etc.....only that it is broken by harm or "negative".

As humans that are capable of thought...we can make choices to be compassionate and tolerate some harm in order to gain something strategically later on...that thing may BE harmony once we are able to restore the "mid point".

However, in and of that moment that he bites you...that we are addressing specifically, I really believe it is "DISHARMONY" and the choice we make is COMPASSION. the later effect may lead to Harmony.

[Pauliina Lievonen]

I remember once I was hiking with some family members in North-eastern Finland, in an area with forest dotted with little lakes. I was wearing my trousers tucked into my socks, a jacket, a net over my head tucket into the neck of the jacket and IIRC gloves. And this in July. At one point I looked down at the front of my (beige) jacket. It was GREY with mosquitoes. Slapping them would have been utterly futile. :D

But is there's only one, annoyingly keening around the bedroom, it dies. evileyes

Oh yeah, and repellant repels me just as effectively as the bugs. Blergh.

kvaak
Pauliina

[DonMagee]

In the link above it mentions sweat and says it's the octanol in it that smells like dinner to a mozzie, doesn't mention B1 but does mention biotin.

Good reading anyway.

Regards.G.

I wasn't able to dig up the article I was thinking of, but I did find this.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2603/is_0002/ai_2603000229/

Talks about brewers yeast a bit in terms of health food and mentions mosquitos and ticks. Although I did find that wikipedia states that modern studies on B1 and mosquitos has found it ineffective. Either way, I homebrew beer, so I get all the yeast I can drink!

[graham christian]

I wasn't able to dig up the article I was thinking of, but I did find this.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2603/is_0002/ai_2603000229/

Talks about brewers yeast a bit in terms of health food and mentions mosquitos and ticks. Although I did find that wikipedia states that modern studies on B1 and mosquitos has found it ineffective. Either way, I homebrew beer, so I get all the yeast I can drink!

Thanks for that. Yes, as I thought but the information source is useful.

By the way, hope your joking if you think you get the benefits of B vitamins from beer.

Regards.G.

[DonMagee]

Thanks for that. Yes, as I thought but the information source is useful.

By the way, hope your joking if you think you get the benefits of B vitamins from beer.

Regards.G.

I was joking, but home brewed beer does in fact contain live yeast, so you do get some B vitamins from drinking it (although probably not enough to really matter unless your an alcoholic). Although many people believe the vitamin B in homebrew protects drinkers from hangovers. I don't drink enough to at one sitting to get hangovers.

[Basia Halliop]

I certainly wouldn't compare bees and mosquitos... bees are very rarely aggressive and most species don't attack unless attacked first. Africanized honey bees are an exception as they are terriritorial... but it's pretty easy to harmonize with almost any other bee. You just don't try to squash them, and usually that's all it takes to avoid any harm. They are happiest just left alone anyway.

Mosquitoes, on the other hand... I guess it depends where you are and how many there are and how aggressive they are. Some places I've been they are in swarms and are happy to bite even through jeans and sweatshirts, let alone any patch of exposed skin... lots you can do to reduce bites, in the worst cases rarely anything you can do to fully prevent them.

And I wouldn't call it harmonizing, either... either it's win/lose (they want your blood and are getting it, and you are getting an itchy painful bite, and if you're in a disease-ridden area, disease) or it's lose/lose (they want your blood and aren't getting it, and you are hiding indoors with all windows hermetically sealed on what would otherwise have been a nice summer evening) or it's lose/win (they are dead and you're not bitten), or lose/lose (they are dead but since you got them mid-bite you're still going to have a welt the next day).

I don't think it's possible to harmonize with a mosquito who wants to bite you. There is no win/win solution, someone is always going to lose.

[genin]

I'd just let the mosquito bite me and do nothing. Then everybody would see that I wouldn't do anything to hurt anyone, not even a little mosquito. I wouldn't swat it, I'd let it sit there and suck me dry because I wouldn't even hurt a fly....or mosquito as it were.

[Mark Freeman]

I'd just let the mosquito bite me and do nothing. Then everybody would see that I wouldn't do anything to hurt anyone, not even a little mosquito. I wouldn't swat it, I'd let it sit there and suck me dry because I wouldn't even hurt a fly....or mosquito as it were.

Hi Roger,

if you were in a malaria area, that might be a flawed strategy. On what level is the value of the life of a mozzie, greater than your own?

regards,

Mark

[genin]

Hi Roger,

if you were in a malaria area, that might be a flawed strategy. On what level is the value of the life of a mozzie, greater than your own?

regards,

Mark

I'm not in a malaria area. In no way is it an issue of its life or mine.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I'd just let the mosquito bite me and do nothing. Then everybody would see that I wouldn't do anything to hurt anyone, not even a little mosquito. I wouldn't swat it, I'd let it sit there and suck me dry because I wouldn't even hurt a fly....or mosquito as it were.

Always? No exceptions?

[Janet Rosen]

Um, here mosquitoes carry West Nile virus. Smack em dead. Actually, smack em dead anyway.

[phitruong]

Um, here mosquitoes carry West Nile virus. Smack em dead. Actually, smack em dead anyway.

is de-nial a symptom of the West Nile virus?

* i know it was bad, so now i will smack myself in atonement *

[LinTal]

I'd just let the mosquito bite me and do nothing. Then everybody would see that I wouldn't do anything to hurt anyone, not even a little mosquito. I wouldn't swat it, I'd let it sit there and suck me dry because I wouldn't even hurt a fly....or mosquito as it were.

Ooh, that's a really interesting line of thought! Let's play.

1) The role of awareness and permission.

Someone's been skimming your bank account for the past year, without you knowing, to buy groceries. You lack knowledge, and therefore permission. Your personhood would be breached - rights, personal space, sense of property, etc.. The outcome would entail minimal damage to you.

You are asleep when someone breaks into your house with a gun and intent to cause as much harm as possible. Damage to your self and property is extremely likely, but you have situational awareness and this allows you to choose to sit by passively or not.


2) The application of this line of thought

Your friend reports that their bank account been skimmed for a year. What emotions do you feel?
You hear that a friend's been attacked by someone breaking into their house. What advice would you give?


3) A return to the original dilemma.

The bee stings you without your knowledge, and you feel a sudden flare of pain. The bee dies in the process of stinging you. How does this fit into the 'cause no harm' paradigm?
Something stings you as you are walking in the park, catching you by surprise. Your instinct is to swat at it to get rid of it, and you inadvertently kill it. How do you cope with the clash of philosophy and action? What is your line of thought?


You also bring in issues of self-awareness, self-belief and public perception, and how these match up, but let's leave that for later.

[graham christian]

Hi Roger,

if you were in a malaria area, that might be a flawed strategy. On what level is the value of the life of a mozzie, greater than your own?

regards,

Mark

Hi Mark.
How about this line of thought? Based on selflessness then how would you approach the problem. That doesn't mean there and then when surrounded by a swarm of mozzies but rather seeing the problem -ie: they bite and give malaria and then saying we have two choices:

1) We approach the solution from the view of self protection.
2) We approach the problem from the view of selflessness.

Regards.G.

[LinTal]

Hi Mark.

2) We approach the problem from the view of selflessness.

Regards.G.

Can you give us an example of this in application?

Eg, through the euphemism; how could you approach a malaria-ridden mosquito selflessly??

[Walter Martindale]

It's really hard to believe anyone would just ignore mosquitos biting them. Go to the Canadian prairies, Northern Ontario, or for that matter, anywhere up north - you'll be bitten on every square millimeter of exposed skin, (and not just by mozzies), and driven mad. Heck, they'll bite you through your clothing, too, if the weave isn't very tight. You need to spray DEET on your clothing, they bite through jeans.

We were at a fullbore rifle competition with the visiting British Rifle Team shooting at the range in Dundurn, Saskatchewan (I think it was 1993), and they couldn't believe how many mosquitos we put up with on a regular basis. Muskol (99% DEET in those days) kept them at bay, but you couldn't put it on your eyelids or forehead because the sweat would take it into your eyes. Guess where we were bitten. They were landing in the aperture of our front and rear sights, in between the glasses and the eyes (where you can't get at them), and when you get enough of them landing on your earmuffs, you can actually hear them... (well, not any more with the age-related hearing loss.. :-) ) Had to be the toughest competition to maintain concentration I've ever shot - everybody's scores on the 1000 yard range were terrible.

Incidentally folks, it's the female mozzie that bites and sucks blood for making eggs.

Mosquitos are a scourge. Sure, they may be part of nature, but they're not likely to go extinct before we do. Carry West Nile, Yellow Fever, Malaria, Equine Encephalitis, and probably a bunch of other bugs - yes, not all carry all of these, but they're a disease vector.
Kill the ones you can, bug-juice the ones you can't kill, keep them away with nets and screens, whatever.

Harmonize with a mosquito? Catch and crush them in mid-air before they land...
W

[graham christian]

Can you give us an example of this in application?

Eg, through the euphemism; how could you approach a malaria-ridden mosquito selflessly??

O.K. Approaching the problem of a malaria-ridden mosquito area.

So from a selfless viewpoint that would rule out self protectionas the only thing and put as a prime mover the selfless act of protecting the mosquitos while at the same time solving the problem of people getting bitten.

So that's the first step, the first thing to come to terms with. Thus focus goes onto a solution which doesn't harm.

Now comes investigation and contemplation. For example, what exactly do they want? When do they want it, how often etc., etc.

Straight off the top of my head I could give thought to it this way: Basically they want some kind of prefered food. Why Humans? Because they are there. Hmmm. Is there a program, a set something or rule they follow without fail?

Thus for example people have already developed a technology which attracts mosquitos yet it is a machine that kills them. But we are progressing.

That means they do follow something automatically. I would have to know how that machine works to say but it may be a vibration it puts out or an aroma or something for it does work. Thus something could be developed that attracts them to certain areas or points and thus away from the area under question.

A simple example would be the 'tiger temple' where an old buddhist monk started taking in injured animals, starting with a tiger to make them better. Ended up with not only people bringing him some but animals actually coming out of the forest to him for help. Quite an amazing thing. So you now see monks there walking along with wild tigers, taking them for walks, playing with them etc.

But one thing I noticed is that they supply the tigers with food based on the fact that if they are not hungry or frightened they are completely safe. Thus by giving what they want and need they actually form a bond. I even saw tigers with little piglets running between them playing, like a little noahs ark.
Just an example of selflessness in action bringing about harmony.

Maybe not the same as mosquito problem but there again, maybe it's closer than we think. Maybe a well fed mosquito doesn't bite and they can be attracted to a point of feeding and they would get used to it and thus forget about people.

Maybe's but without that line of thinking only destructive and selfish solutions can ever be found.

That's my line of general reasoning on it.

Peace.G.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

A simple example would be the 'tiger temple' where an old buddhist monk started taking in injured animals, starting with a tiger to make them better. Ended up with not only people bringing him some but animals actually coming out of the forest to him for help. Quite an amazing thing. So you now see monks there walking along with wild tigers, taking them for walks, playing with them etc.

But one thing I noticed is that they supply the tigers with food based on the fact that if they are not hungry or frightened they are completely safe. Thus by giving what they want and need they actually form a bond. I even saw tigers with little piglets running between them playing, like a little noahs ark.
Just an example of selflessness in action bringing about harmony.

Interesting.

What kind of food they gave the tigers? Vegan cat food?

[Hanna B]

It's really hard to believe anyone would just ignore mosquitos biting them.

No difficulty at all in believing that... My dad used to just let them bite since that's the easiest way.

Of course it all depends. If you're in one of those places where you can hardly open your mouth without a mosquito accidently flying in there, the strategy obviously doesn't work. Then you need bee-keeper eqipment. But I didn't see that the premises for the discussion is you live somewhere where the air is thick from mosquitos and they carry disease. As I already explained, ours don't.

So I could just let them bite but I swat they, usually. If they have already sucked lots of blod it's so messy, though. It's easier to let them finish and fly off. If they just started, in theory I want to let it finish since the bite will be less of a neusance (sp?) but most of the time I swat without thinking. It's just if they're already swollen from blod that I stop myself from swatting. If it's already red, it'll be finished in just a couple of seconds.

[phitruong]

Interesting.

What kind of food they gave the tigers? Vegan cat food?

nope, vegetarians. :)

[phitruong]

A simple example would be the 'tiger temple' where an old buddhist monk started taking in injured animals, starting with a tiger to make them better. Ended up with not only people bringing him some but animals actually coming out of the forest to him for help. Quite an amazing thing. So you now see monks there walking along with wild tigers, taking them for walks, playing with them etc.

.

where is that? the only tigers that haven't been hunted down to the point of extinction would probably be around Angkor Wat. even there, they would be hunted down to make it safe for tourists.

[lbb]

I'm just wondering if any of the "don't swat" people have ever had malaria, or know anyone who has. It's not exactly like having a head cold.

[graham christian]

where is that? the only tigers that haven't been hunted down to the point of extinction would probably be around Angkor Wat. even there, they would be hunted down to make it safe for tourists.

This is where it is: http://youtu.be/WpRF0EGFAYA

This was a series of four programs I believe and that is part one.

I also think that it may end up, as with many things, unfortunately abandoned. Time will tell.

A story I have followed. As time went by more and more people wanted to visit to see it and the problems that will eventually lead to is a shame. For then public bodies etc. get involved and then health and safety rules get involved and add to that money gets involved and starts becoming the thing of import or rather the now needed thing which is lacking and becomes such.

I can predict that this will all lead to some incident somewhere along the line and then all the negative nay sayers will have it closed down. Many ways it could go wrong also through having the wrong people looking after the animals for example but hopefully my prediction will not be correct.

All started by a simple selfless thought.

Peace.G.

[Walter Martindale]

No difficulty at all in believing that... My dad used to just let them bite since that's the easiest way.

Of course it all depends. If you're in one of those places where you can hardly open your mouth without a mosquito accidently flying in there, the strategy obviously doesn't work. Then you need bee-keeper eqipment. But I didn't see that the premises for the discussion is you live somewhere where the air is thick from mosquitos and they carry disease. As I already explained, ours don't.

So I could just let them bite but I swat they, usually. If they have already sucked lots of blod it's so messy, though. It's easier to let them finish and fly off. If they just started, in theory I want to let it finish since the bite will be less of a neusance (sp?) but most of the time I swat without thinking. It's just if they're already swollen from blod that I stop myself from swatting. If it's already red, it'll be finished in just a couple of seconds.

When I lived in Vancouver, I think I saw 10 mosquitos or so in the 18 years I lived there. I've seen very few mosquitos in the parts of New Zealand I've lived, also (6 years) - however the sand flies... they bite and it hurts - every time. Just about everywhere else in Canada - as soon as the sun gets good and hot it's not so bad, but from just before sunset until after sunrise, you NEED something to keep the mosquitos off. Here in Ontario, some of them carry West Nile virus - Hmm, which one? Trouble is, by the time you realize you're being bitten, it's too late. Out in the prairies it's encephalitis - again, not every mosquito, but - which one? Do I let that one bite? or maybe that one? Nah. Bug spray, screen windows, tight weave clothes, and a liberal dose of swat the pest... Letting them finish their blood meal and fly away lets them make eggs and hundreds more mosquitos... A little red stuff will wash off.
W
W

[Hanna B]

When I lived in Vancouver, I think I saw 10 mosquitos or so in the 18 years I lived there. I've seen very few mosquitos in the parts of New Zealand I've lived, also (6 years) - however the sand flies... they bite and it hurts - every time. Just about everywhere else in Canada - as soon as the sun gets good and hot it's not so bad, but from just before sunset until after sunrise, you NEED something to keep the mosquitos off. Here in Ontario, some of them carry West Nile virus - Hmm, which one? Trouble is, by the time you realize you're being bitten, it's too late. Out in the prairies it's encephalitis - again, not every mosquito, but - which one? Do I let that one bite? or maybe that one? Nah. Bug spray, screen windows, tight weave clothes, and a liberal dose of swat the pest... Letting them finish their blood meal and fly away lets them make eggs and hundreds more mosquitos... A little red stuff will wash off.
W
W

Nothing new in that post, and nothing that seems to reply to what I wrote.

If you want info on Swedish mosquitos, google "Herräng Dance Camp". But I guess those are not discussed here... now I leave the thread to you folks from Northern America.

[Basia Halliop]

But I didn't see that the premises for the discussion is you live somewhere where the air is thick from mosquitos and they carry disease.

What is the premise, then?

If it's not specified that they're some particular kind of mosquitoes or some specific kind of environment, of course I'm going to assume they're the only kind of mosquitoes I'm familiar with, and act the way I've always experienced mosquitoes to act. That's what the word mosquito means to me...

Personally, for me, letting a mosquito bite me if I can help it is more torturous than I'm willing to go for the sake of 'harmony'. The itching drives me crazy and even if there was no risk of disease, I'd be willing to kill a few mosquitoes if it would lessen my itching. Of course preventative measures are better, but that's because if I just rely on slapping I will only get some of them, and others I'll get but it'll be too late to stop the itching.

[Tom Verhoeven]

Another thought for you. If its landed you wouldn't feel it till it bites therefor what did anyone learn from killing it. If that's their solution all the time then they will continue to get bitten.

A bit like 'if he hit me I'd bash him' mentality.

Saw a program on t.v. recently where they were using a machine that actually attracts mosquitos. It was used to do a mosquito count for forecasting. Not much different to a pollen count. That just shows you can lead something to somewhere.

Saw another one too where a couple are in the desert covered by bees. The man is actually enjoying reading a book at the same time, completely not bothered by it. His explanation? He said they just want the water from any sweat, just a drink, they don't want me. So in this case you can give them what they want and have no problem. Also shows resistance would get you stung more than likely.

The point of this story? You can prevent something wanting to attack you or you can give the something what it wants as it's of no harm to you or you can lead it elsewhere to what it's looking for.

I think those who take the mosquito analogy would action go for prevention don't you?

There's always a harmonious solution, it's whether we are wise enough to find it I say. Thus there is always Aikido.

Regards G.

Graham,
That is a good Aiki-example. Bees can actually smell someone's fear. And they do not like that smell. As a result they may decide to sting. If on the other hand you stay calm, continue to breath and relax the bees will not harm you.

In a recent interview a Buddhist monk tells about his experience with meditation in Thailand. During his stay at the monastery he was much bothered by mosquitos. He complaint about this and wondered if he could not use a repellant or a net to protect himself. His teacher refused this and explained to him that he had to except the musquitos as his teachers. After a while this monk was capable to ignore the mosquitos and get into a deep meditative state. In this meditative state his metabolism changed and as a result the mosquitos left him alone. The musquitos had truly taught him something!

Which reminded me of the famous anecdote of Musashi and Takuan Soho and their encounter with a snake. Same idea.

Kind regards,
Tom

[graham christian]

Graham,
That is a good Aiki-example. Bees can actually smell someone's fear. And they do not like that smell. As a result they may decide to sting. If on the other hand you stay calm, continue to breath and relax the bees will not harm you.

In a recent interview a Buddhist monk tells about his experience with meditation in Thailand. During his stay at the monastery he was much bothered by mosquitos. He complaint about this and wondered if he could not use a repellant or a net to protect himself. His teacher refused this and explained to him that he had to except the musquitos as his teachers. After a while this monk was capable to ignore the mosquitos and get into a deep meditative state. In this meditative state his metabolism changed and as a result the mosquitos left him alone. The musquitos had truly taught him something!

Which reminded me of the famous anecdote of Musashi and Takuan Soho and their encounter with a snake. Same idea.

Kind regards,
Tom

Thanks Tom.
If only more Aikido practioners understood this. Whenever anyone gets into trouble or fight I look for how they caused it.

Peace.G.

[Lorien Lowe]

Mosquitoes, which want to suck my blood, inject itch-making saliva into me, and possibly infect me with something nasty, get killed. If there's one in my room at night, I can't sleep until it's dead.

Honeybees and bumblebees, on the other hand, have no interest in stinging me unless I provoke them, and more than once I have gently caught one inside and carried it out to be released. If one gently urges them to walk onto a hand, rather than grabbing them, they're perfectly content to be carried.
Hornets, I open the door and try to shoo them in that direction without getting near them; they're likely to sting out of pique.

[Hanna B]

What is the premise, then?

If it's not specified that they're some particular kind of mosquitoes or some specific kind of environment, of course I'm going to assume they're the only kind of mosquitoes I'm familiar with, and act the way I've always experienced mosquitoes to act. That's what the word mosquito means to me...

Of course. I do the same.

[lbb]

Of course. I do the same.

...and I'm sure the first person in North America to get infected with West Nile virus did this as well.

[PeterR]

I would assist that particular soul to find re-birth in a more enlightened form.

[oisin bourke]

I would assist that particular soul to find re-birth in a more enlightened form.

This is something that has always stumped me about the theory of reincarnation:

How do animals get reborn in a "higher" form? They don't have free will, so they can't make a decision to do something "moral" or "good". Is it just luck?

This is a serious question. Can anybody with some knowledge of buddhism/hinduism explain this?

[PeterR]

Well I figure mossie is rock bottom in the grand scheme of things so there is no way but up.

On the serious side it is a great question.

This is something that has always stumped me about the theory of reincarnation:

How do animals get reborn in a "higher" form? They don't have free will, so they can't make a decision to do something "moral" or "good". Is it just luck?

This is a serious question. Can anybody with some knowledge of buddhism/hinduism explain this?

[lbb]

This sounds like a "there are no bad dogs" argument ;-)

[Walter Martindale]

I don't get mad at mosquitos. They're just doing what they do.

I do, however, kill them whenever I can.

That doesn't make me bad for taking the lives of mosquitos.

The world is made up of predators, prey, and prey animals (us) defending ourselves from predators (mosquitos).

Deer (and other animals) try to run away from coyotes, humans (and other red-blooded species) try to kill mosquitos.

Neither succeed all the time, or coyotes (and other predators) and mosquitos would go extinct...

W

[graham christian]

This is something that has always stumped me about the theory of reincarnation:

How do animals get reborn in a "higher" form? They don't have free will, so they can't make a decision to do something "moral" or "good". Is it just luck?

This is a serious question. Can anybody with some knowledge of buddhism/hinduism explain this?

They do have free will, just not much of it. A downward spiral of less and less free will. Strayed from the path.

Have you read Jonathon Livingstone Seagull? Or even The Reluctant Messiah?

Peace.G.

[Tom Verhoeven]

They do have free will, just not much of it. A downward spiral of less and less free will. Strayed from the path.

Have you read Jonathon Livingstone Seagull? Or even The Reluctant Messiah?

Peace.G.

Read Jonathan Livingstone Seagull a long, long time ago. Nice story. Sort of a mix between Plato's Allegory of the cave and the Buddhist idea of a Boddhisatva.

I would not be too sure about humans having a free will - humanity does not seem to act like it.

I would say animals have a free will or at least more so then we as humans tend to think so, but just as humans they are limited by their surroundings and circumstances.

Tom

[graham christian]

Read Jonathan Livingstone Seagull a long, long time ago. Nice story. Sort of a mix between Plato's Allegory of the cave and the Buddhist idea of a Boddhisatva.

I would not be too sure about humans having a free will - humanity does not seem to act like it.

I would say animals have a free will or at least more so then we as humans tend to think so, but just as humans they are limited by their surroundings and circumstances.

Tom

Ha, ha. Humanity definitely does not act like it, true.

Too busy fighting the illusion.

Peace.G.

[phitruong]

I would not be too sure about humans having a free will - humanity does not seem to act like it.
Tom

no free will. to setup a will takes money for lawyer and so on. no freebie. :)

[Walter Martindale]

no free will. to setup a will takes money for lawyer and so on. no freebie. :)

"Where there's a will, there's a relative.":D

[graham christian]

"Where there's a will, there's a relative.":D

Aha, nicely back to topic. Where there's a will there's bloodsuckers.

[Benjamin Green]

This is something that has always stumped me about the theory of reincarnation:

How do animals get reborn in a "higher" form? They don't have free will, so they can't make a decision to do something "moral" or "good". Is it just luck?

This is a serious question. Can anybody with some knowledge of buddhism/hinduism explain this?

No, it's not luck. Only sentient things have karma. The Buddhist would define animals as sentient though - just less intelligent than you.

[SteliosPapadakis]

Biiiiiiiig Irimi Tenkan and a direct shomen uchi from behind. :D

[Mark Mueller]

What is the sound of one hand smacking?

[Lunatic Bodhisattva]

I blow him off once or twice with a warning intention then I smoosh him...

E

[Hanna B]

...and I'm sure the first person in North America to get infected with West Nile virus did this as well.

Certainly. That doesn't mean you, and others who insist on talking deadly viruses when I tell you I don't have to fear them because they don't yet exist where I live, have a point.

It's not like I know what's gonna be the next deadly stuff here. If it's the mosquitos I should avoid, or perhaps the neighbour's cat that probably carry zillions of bugs. Unprotected sex didn't use to be deadly. Now it can be, so what's next... kissing? God knows.

The place where I have to cross the road to get to the grocery store is much more likely to get me killed than any possibility of catching viruses that, as of today, is unheard of within thousands of kilometers.

In a country that have plenty of mosquitos (you can google "Herräng dance camp" and mosquitos) but they don't carry any nasty stuff, being afraid of mosquito bites "in case you might catch something" is illogical reasoning. Unless, of course, you spend all your energi avoiding things that might eventually get dangerous. In which case this illogical fear in itself is going to ruin your life.

[oisin bourke]

The place where I have to cross the road to get to the grocery store is much more likely to get me killed than any possibility of catching viruses that, as of today, is unheard of within thousands of kilometers.


You could always start killing motorists:) .

[oisin bourke]

No, it's not luck. Only sentient things have karma. The Buddhist would define animals as sentient though - just less intelligent than you.

I'm not really au fait with buddhist terminology, but what is classed as karmic behaviour for a mosquito?

[graham christian]

Robotic.

[Benjamin Green]

I'm not really au fait with buddhist terminology, but what is classed as karmic behaviour for a mosquito?

This is sort of like asking whether the Bible supports the priesthood of all believers. Religions, especially older religions, aren't structural philosophy – they're not held to the same sort of standards. So you can't point at them and just go 'And the answer is....'

Having hedged my answer sufficiently then:

Generally speaking:

All behaviour is karmic behaviour. Karma is a reflection of your inner life, not of your outward actions.

Karma means something like... 'actions that come from your intentions.' In Buddhism (in general) the nature of an act is determined by the nature of the intent driving that action. When someone says 'good' karma they may as well be saying 'good' action.

There are a lot of teachings around how good and bad karma are believed to affect people, but it's not clear that it's necessarily any more mystical than saying that one misstep leads to another, or that what goes around comes around. Early forms of Buddhism didn't even seem to believe that your karma affected your cycle of rebirth. Arguably, if you believe that what affects your cycle of rebirth is how enlightened you are, karma's effect on it is more a transitive than a direct relationship anyway.

One interpretation would be: It just so happens that doing things with ill intent tends to lead you to bearing more ill intent, and that tends to lead you away from enlightenment, which tends to affect how you'll be reborn....

But the pattern isn't taken to be perfectly deterministic. You can go up or you can go down.

The point of Buddhism isn't to follow a set of rules. It's to attain enlightenment - or at least to become more enlightened. In Buddhism you should do things because you've experienced them to be true, not because someone's told you to do them. If I just do something because some monk told me that I'd be rewarded at the end, I'm not likely to attain much enlightenment. I'd just be copying the outward behaviours, the superficial trappings of enlightenment.

As for how a mosquito becomes more enlightened, I honestly couldn't even venture a reasonable guess. With karma so bound up in how a creature thinks, and how a creature thinks being so bound up in how it perceives the world - I think that sort of question's getting way out into, 'How do bats see?' sort of territory :p .

[bothhandsclapping]

Classic samurai story ... really, really condensed.

Committed to avenge the death of his master, the samurai finally meets up with the man he has sworn to kill. As he is about to make the killing strike, SPLAT, spit in the face. The samurai sheathes his sword and walks away. (The samurai would not kill in anger).

So, if a mosquito lands on your arm ...

[bothhandsclapping]

Classic samurai story ... really, really condensed.

Committed to avenge the death of his master, the samurai finally meets up with the man he has sworn to kill. As he is about to make the killing strike, SPLAT, spit in the face. The samurai sheathes his sword and walks away. (The samurai would not kill in anger).

So, if a mosquito lands on your arm ...
FWIW ... any time you hear a zen koan or Buddhist saying, it's a safe bet it eventually points back to understanding the workings of the mind. When you hear a bird chirp ... where are you?

[kfa4303]

If a mosquito landed on your arm would you;

A. Harmonize with it, allowing it to bite your arm and withdraw blood for substenance?

B. "Do no harm" and compassionately remove and release it.

C. Smack the disease ridden blood sucker dead.

D. I don't do Aikido.

dps

E. Thankfully, I do do Aikido (dew?). Therefore, just as it bites, I harmonize with it and compassionately, but convincingly perform the rarely seen "Mosquito Nage" technique, thereby bringing the encounter to a mutually amenable conclusion while also driving home the point to said offender that I'll not be his, or any other blood suckers human smorgasbord.

[phitruong]

So, if a mosquito lands on your arm ...

spit on your arm? isn't that kinda unsanitary, sort of gross? what if you are chewing tobaco, that would have stained your arm and kinda messy too. :)