My thoughts on Competition vs Non-competition

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[TheAikidoka]

Hi all I'm up really late had some thoughts popping around my head on what these two are trying to teach and convey, hope you don't mind me sharing. Here they are please feel free to add or comment on anything I've written.

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To win
2. To crush the opponent
3. At any cost ( within the rules)
4. This teaches one how to dominate the opponent
5. This proves Who is physically stronger.

Non-competitive:- Teaches

1. To not lose ( so no one loses).
2. To take care of the opponent
3. So there is no cost to anyone (because there really are no rules)
4. This teaches one how to create harmony.
5. This proves it's not about strength. It's about spirit.

In Budo

Andy B

[phitruong]

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To win
2. To crush the opponent
3. At any cost ( within the rules)
4. This teaches one how to dominate the opponent
5. This proves Who is physically stronger.

Andy B

i'll answer with a story. once upon a time... ok good story should start with that

once upon a time, i was in a karate tournament. in the final round, i went up against this guy with an incredible front kick. his timing was impeccable. his reach was beyond belief. he blew through all my defends. i lost. afterward, as we walked off the fighting arena, i congratulated him and mentioned his techniques. he told me that i left an opening that i might not realised. so we stood there talking to each other, and showing each other techniques and counters like two old training partners. we parted way with warm hand shakes and smiles. lost without defeat, win without glory.
strong steel needs tempering in fire. strong ki needs beans, cabbage, and kimchee. strong aiki needs donuts and coffee. :D

[Michael Varin]

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To win
2. To crush the opponent
3. At any cost ( within the rules)
4. This teaches one how to dominate the opponent
5. This proves Who is physically stronger.

Non-competitive:- Teaches

1. To not lose ( so no one loses).
2. To take care of the opponent
3. So there is no cost to anyone (because there really are no rules)
4. This teaches one how to create harmony.
5. This proves it's not about strength. It's about spirit.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but I think you can easily observe instances of any of the above points happening in either a competitive or non-competitive environment.

In fact, I think that some type of "competitive" practice can be very beneficial, because it gives us a way to develop and test our functional skills in a truly spontaneous engagement.

[Alic]

Competition by itself isn't bad, when done correctly.

What do I mean by that? Just look at Judo outside of Japan. It's all about winning the game now. For the most part, only the Japanese Judoka's go for ippon, the rest of them just goes for a points and try to hold the lead. The spirit of Budo's all but lost. The same can be seen creeping into other martial arts like Kendo, Karate, and many of the traditionally competitive Budo's.

I don't know how it's like at Shodokan, but I hope they're still competing with self-improvement in mind. If the competition degenerates into a game of points and technicalities in the rules, then the style itself as a Budo is finished.

The reason why O-sensei forbade competition isn't just because it can breeds jealousy and disrupt harmony. Competition, when done right, can foster friendship and sharpen the skills of the competitors. But what happens in reality is that people let their greed overcome them, and goes for victory at all cost. The rules, which should've existed to keep the competitors safe while sparring, becomes nothing more than the framework in which victory is sought.

This leads to the competitors thinking everything in the mental box created by the "rules". This effectively makes what they're doing a game. Training for such a thing only dulls the blade that is yourself. True Budo has no rules. When you are in combat, you use whatever it is you got, and there's only the goal of survival, and nothing else. This do-or-die mentality is what a true Budo should always keep in mind, when training.

As usual, the fault of competition doesn't lie in competition itself, but the competitors. The human factor is always flawed, and the original intention of competition is warped until it becomes winning for the sake of winning, and not polishing yourself.

[Michael Douglas]

Well, lots of that looks wrong to me. The quote system is a bit awkward so I'll add my comments in bold
... feel free to add or comment on anything I've written.

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To win
2. To crush the opponent Not at all, crush? Why? Heavyweight Judo, sure, but not much else.
3. At any cost ( within the rules) Ridiculous.
4. This teaches one how to dominate the opponent
5. This proves Who is physically stronger. Nope, physically weaker can prevail using Luck, timing, technique and experience. Physically stronger obviously gives an advantage.

Non-competitive:- Teaches

1. To not lose ( so no one loses). Nope, it actually teaches to Lose by the absence of competition.
2. To take care of the opponent
3. So there is no cost to anyone (because there really are no rules) ??What??
4. This teaches one how to create harmony.
5. This proves it's not about strength. It's about spirit. The opposite! The strongest spirit is honed by competition!

Now, I suspect these lists are there to promote Non-competition and make competition look bad ... to what end?

[Dave de Vos]

I think it would be really difficult to construct a good rule system for aikido competition.

If such a rule system dispenses with strict safety measures, I expect aikido competition to result in injuries all the time, like dislocated shoulders, sprained wrists, elbows, broken noses, fingers, ribs. But if we do implement strict safety measures in competition, it could result in many aikido techniques to be banned in competition.

Another thing, to give competitors an incentive to attack their opponent, one would have to award points for succesful attacks (strikes and kicks? grabs too?), not only for succesful defense (throws and pins? evasions too?). But that would probably result in many competitors training for attack rather than defense (because it suits them better), becoming more like MMA fighters than aikidoka.

Would competitive aikido still be recognizable as aikido, or would it be more like MMA competition? What would be the difference between MMA and aikido competiton rules?

[Dave de Vos]

...What would be the difference between MMA and aikido competiton rules?

Obviously (IMO) aikido competition would be without gloves, which would be a disadvantage for strikers because their hands are not protected from injuries from hitting their opponent's skull.

[Dave de Vos]

And wearing a gi would be a difference too (and grabbing it would be allowed).

[graham christian]

Hi all I'm up really late had some thoughts popping around my head on what these two are trying to teach and convey, hope you don't mind me sharing. Here they are please feel free to add or comment on anything I've written.

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To win
2. To crush the opponent
3. At any cost ( within the rules)
4. This teaches one how to dominate the opponent
5. This proves Who is physically stronger.

Non-competitive:- Teaches

1. To not lose ( so no one loses).
2. To take care of the opponent
3. So there is no cost to anyone (because there really are no rules)
4. This teaches one how to create harmony.
5. This proves it's not about strength. It's about spirit.

In Budo

Andy B

Agreed.

Regards.G.

[Marc Abrams]

Competition can:

1) Teach mutual respect
2) Teach humility
3) Teach you to remain anchored in reality
4) Teach you never to rest upon your laurels
5) Teach you the true value of peace

Non-Competition can:

1) Teach overly collusive training.
2) Lead to unrealistic beliefs about one's abilities.
3) Lead to a false sense of security and ideas about peace

Competition and non-competition can each lead to genuine problems and genuine personal growth. You can slant things anyway you want to support your position on these issues without saying anything meaningful or substantial at all.

Marc Abrams

[Kevin Leavitt]

I think it would be really difficult to construct a good rule system for aikido competition.

If such a rule system dispenses with strict safety measures, I expect aikido competition to result in injuries all the time, like dislocated shoulders, sprained wrists, elbows, broken noses, fingers, ribs. But if we do implement strict safety measures in competition, it could result in many aikido techniques to be banned in competition.

Another thing, to give competitors an incentive to attack their opponent, one would have to award points for succesful attacks (strikes and kicks? grabs too?), not only for succesful defense (throws and pins? evasions too?). But that would probably result in many competitors training for attack rather than defense (because it suits them better), becoming more like MMA fighters than aikidoka.

Would competitive aikido still be recognizable as aikido, or would it be more like MMA competition? What would be the difference between MMA and aikido competiton rules?

Exactly Dave. It is called MMA, Judo, BJJ, Sambo or any number of good jiu jitsu based systems. The benefits of them are why I study them. Each methodology has its benefits.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hi all I'm up really late had some thoughts popping around my head on what these two are trying to teach and convey, hope you don't mind me sharing. Here they are please feel free to add or comment on anything I've written.

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To win
2. To crush the opponent
3. At any cost ( within the rules)
4. This teaches one how to dominate the opponent
5. This proves Who is physically stronger.

Non-competitive:- Teaches

1. To not lose ( so no one loses).
2. To take care of the opponent
3. So there is no cost to anyone (because there really are no rules)
4. This teaches one how to create harmony.
5. This proves it's not about strength. It's about spirit.

In Budo

Andy B

Competition teaches that in order to win, you don't do it alone...it takes the help of many. Cooperation.
Competition teaches control. You can't crush your opponents without regard to safety. Compassion and control.

Win at any cost? No...winning spirit and sportsmanship taught me something different. Watch the karate kid...that story showed the downfall of that attitude.

Sure it teaches u to dominate..that is what u do in martial arts. U dominate and control. End of discussion. Once u do this u can show compassion and restore stuff, but let's be honest, u don't reason with bad guys and evil, u dominate and control, only when u can stop it, can u deal with resolution. I hate the hippie crap that is born out of people that really have no clue what it means to deal with someone that is bent on hurting or destroying u in someway, physically, mentally, or spiritually. If nothing else having the capacity to do so is a requirement. If not, u have nothing.

proves who is physically stronger? No it is more complex than that. Read mushashi..it proves who has the most skill usually, but it may also prove who was lucky, made a better decision. It sometimes proves to u that the good guy doesn't always win...which is one of the most valuable lessons in budo.
Mrc covered the rest really well...shhhh Marc don't tell anyone where I am writing this from!

[DH]

Well, I disagree with many of the ideas being presented as mutually exclusive.
I've done my aikido in open rooms: With gloves/Without gloves, With gi/Without gi, in MMA and BJJ schools, and as a third kyu totally dominating every shihan I have ever met....with no change in me doing much of anything..... but Morihei Ueshiba's Aiki.
No problems at all.
I would suggest that Aiki is not and has never been, the issue, but rather the lack thereof. Aikido once was and should be again, among the most powerful arts the world has known. The Japanese have no way of fixing it that I have seen or am aware of. We need to do it for them, and for ourselves!
Dan

[Kevin Leavitt]

I agree Dan. but you will be exluded from tje conversation as filks cintinue to try and frame things in little dogmatic boxes to protect turf. I agrer that done correctly prinicplrs are thr same regardleaa what model u use to study them.

[Dave de Vos]

Well, I disagree with many of the ideas being presented as mutually exclusive.
I've done my aikido in open rooms: With gloves/Without gloves, With gi/Without gi, in MMA and BJJ schools, and as a third kyu totally dominating every shihan I have ever met....with no change in me doing much of anything..... but Morihei Ueshiba's Aiki.
No problems at all.
I would suggest that Aiki is not and has never been, the issue, but rather the lack thereof. Aikido once was and should be again, among the most powerful arts the world has known. The Japanese have no way of fixing it that I have seen or am aware of. We need to do it for them, and for ourselves!
Dan

I kind of assumed the type of competition we were talking about here was match competition with strict rules, a referee and such. That's why I was hypothesizing about how aikido match competition might differ from MMA rules (if they would be the same, why study aikido instead of going to an MMA school only if you want to compete with MMA rules?).

What you are describing, to me seems to be more along the lines of free form sparring / rolling / randori, not match competition (or is it?). In my limited experience in sparring, it appeared to be more like a training or testing tool than competition (learning being more important than winning, mostly).

I was thinking that competition meant match competition, not sparring / rolling / randori. But from your post and Kevin's, I now realize that it can mean either of those things. Sorry for the thread drift I caused by my misunderstanding.

[Dave de Vos]

I think part of my misunderstanding was from my interpretation of the distinction made by the original poster. I'd say that sparring teaches the middle ground between the things classified under non-competitive and the things classified under competitive.

[nickregnier1]

Dear all,
I have read your comments and I can see that this topic is starting to give a few opinionated views about benefits of competitions and non-competitions etc, but personally I agree with Andy's initial post and I don't think he meant it in the wrong way about those who believe in competitions. I think his view is shared when we understand the concept of Aikido being a discipline and not a sport, where we do not take competition into account. Now if anyone likes competitions then it is a choice I respect too and I can see why some people feel the need to participate into competitions and that is fine. At the end of the day we are all individuals and this topic can never be truly resolved by choosing which one is ultimately the best. The choice is within our preferences. Personally, again I am not discriminating competitions, but there is a point that is worth mentioning: when competitions are involved, often there will be forbidden techniques in the competition purely because it is too dangerous and then we could end up doing training putting aside these powerful techniques only to use the ones that are allowed in the competition and to me that is a danger of not training the martial arts as a whole with its full spectrum of techniques it offers. I have seen 'the wrong side' where they teach to hit the fastest but this technique may not bring an opponent down, i.e. someone could punch me first but if my second punch is a knock out? Do I still lose? This can be argued for a long time and personally the competition aspect brings a winner today only... Anyway I can see why people bring this whole debate over again and again.
Regards,
Nick Regnier

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon

[DH]

I kind of assumed the type of competition we were talking about here was match competition with strict rules, a referee and such. That's why I was hypothesizing about how aikido match competition might differ from MMA rules (if they would be the same, why study aikido instead of going to an MMA school only if you want to compete with MMA rules?).

What you are describing, to me seems to be more along the lines of free form sparring / rolling / randori, not match competition (or is it?). In my limited experience in sparring, it appeared to be more like a training or testing tool than competition (learning being more important than winning, mostly).

I was thinking that competition meant match competition, not sparring / rolling / randori. But from your post and Kevin's, I now realize that it can mean either of those things. Sorry for the thread drift I caused by my misunderstanding.
Hi Dave
Just about any fight exists within rules. Sparring for the most always happens with agreed rules-and then most people who spar- are doing it to experiment and learn, sometimes for competition, sometimes not.
Training-to me- exists on three levels
1. You do solo work to change the mind/body
2. You do push/ pull stress testing to learn to condition the mind/body- to forces against it.
3. You do static martial arts kata (including drills in sport oriented forms like Judo BJJ and wrestling) to learn principles of movement and to condition the mind/ body for use in technique.
4. You do flow drills to condition the body and to learn how to make those principles and techniques happen against someone who doesn't want them to happen to them at speed.
5. You spar to test and better learn how to utilize all of your training in a more pressurized yet controlled environment. For most people this only included people in one style. This included almost all competition.
6. You fight for different reasons. Sport fighting has rules. Believe it or not most bar fights have preconditioned "rules" implied or through conditioning;

Men will almost never kick you in the balls (women almost always do) So there is a natural inhibitory factor for men to not do that over women
Men will almost never pull hair (women almost always do) though I did see guys hold on to a guy's beard while they pummeled him on two different occasions.
Both will almost always grab you to try and close the distance
Women will almost certainly try to embarrass and rip the clothes and pull earings of women. For men (unless it is hockey where they need the counter balance on the rink) it is usually accidental.
Women don't usually punch in the face-it is the number target for men.
Women will scratch at face and eyes -I have seen a man do that
Both will defend their friends and start gang fighting...you.
Men used furniture -chairs, pool cues, pool balls.
Neither that I have seen go for a lethal attack to the throat.
Only men-in my experience will change on you and go lethal.
I have only had a knife (pulled on me and others) by men.

This is from my experience hanging out with bikers in the 70's and also being a bouncer and watching You tube videos and talking with other bouncers. Things may be different today and in different cultures.

My main point here is that fighting- for strange reasons- typically included inhibitors without being stated. As an alternate example (for reasons I will not discuss here) I know professionals that will go for your eyes, balls, and throat to stop you and then kill you. One of which ended with a huge guy opened up from crotch to ear as he bled out on top of the guy below him. Their idea of a fight is a bit different for some pretty serious reasons. Now, oddly, while they need to make it home over any perceived notion of rules, their peers on a different day, may have to function within very defined rules.

So, competition with rules is not as artificial as some claim, yet it is also a big jump toward a more reality based martial art experience. Sparring is another level that Aikido randori does not come close to covering.
Most so called martial artists -in real fight would- prove to be neither martial or an artists in any sense of the word. The reasons for that are simple. other than in your own imagination, you are never going to be able to pull off what you do in a dojo in a stress induced adrenaline-dump state, unless you have done that so many times you can go cold and move freely.
In fact most Martial artists (and by the way MMA and Bjj guys) when they start to get totally dominated and picked apart while getting pummeled, amp up and stress and start to gas. And when they see the other guy cold...instantly realize they are in trouble. I've seen a couple of guys talking to the guy as the beat the crap out of him, thus putting the nail in the coffin that they are head hunting and not stressed in the least way. That alone controls their mindset even further.

On the whole I don't think it is wise for the majority of Aikido people to even be in these discussions. Due to the nature of their training, they really have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to combatives. It is the another one reason they have earned a reputation for falling apart under stress against better trained Martial artists sport or otherwise. I am not saying all Aikido-ka as I know and have met guys around the world who cross train and are extremely capable. They will be the first to tell you that their aikido has soared to new heights because of it.

In closing I don't want to hear some nitwit telling me I am bashing aikido again. I think I am on the cutting edge of making Aikido extremely powerful again-in dojos around the world filled with Aikido teachers. Why? Because I have a love for what Morihei Ueshiba was trying to do and say, and he would be behind this movement 100%.
Dan

[DH]

The nitwit comment didn't refer to you Dave, but rather to the poorly thought through, inexperienced blather that is sure to follow from certain quarters and ruin yet another potentially thought provoking discussion.
All the best
Dan

[graham christian]

An alternative view.

For me competition has worth, it's not aikido but it has worth.

Those arts like boxing etc are competitive and they do build charachter and teach many plus things. It takes great courage just to step into a ring let's not forget. But it is a sport and like all sports and contact sports it has its set rules but more importantly you do things to each other you wouldn't do in real life, walking down the street.

Take football for example (soccer) or even rugby. We used to kick lumps out of each other and all kinds and it's all part of the game. It's funny how when you agree to a game it doesn't matter yet if someone kicked you on the street you would want to knock his head off. All good games.

Then we come to martial. Here's where I disagree with competition yet fully agree with martial.

I see no valid connection except for 'ways of training'.

Competition is about winning, outscoring, proving. Good game but no more than that. It brings about a competitor mindset, a fighting mindset. Once again, good game.

Martial on the other hand is a totally different field of operation and thus a totally different mindset.

The mindset is not how to win or outscore or prove. The mindset is to end. To finish or be finished. No games, no sparring, no round one and two and three. No fighting.

In the dark crazy world of human beings that equals in the past and now with guns and bombs meet, take out or be taken out.

In the past history of martial arts those who trained martially were preparing for those times and developing that mindset and that 'strength' of spirit. Between times they may have some competitions for fun. No comparison.

Funny how facing potential death can make you feel more alive. For the real warrior thus fighting and competition would be boring.

Just facing a bokken coming at you can make you feel more alive.

Then along comes Ueshiba and finds that in truth, if you approach the universal principles of love, of non-resistance, and other such spiritual virtues with a martial attitude, a martial discipline, then you can do the same as any warrior without harm. No fighting, no competitive mindset, nada.

'When he attacks he has already lost' There is no more martial than that in the whole universe. There's also no contest, no round two and no fight.

Regards.G.

[Garth]

As someone who has been punched in the face a couple of times..... Intentionally and non and a few of the other things mentioned by Dan . Having trained in other MA's where you learn by getting hit in face and other areas with punches and kicks and never even talking about the lethal stuff until u attain some advanced level. My original statement that " the first time more than half present aikido people were to get hit as a part of regular training, they would be gone" $$$$$ would leave dojo and and business down as a result, stands. Oh and of course let's not forget insurance liability for you legitimate dojo/ business owners.
In fact many people , maybe older , maybe tired of being punching bags come to aikido , " to not get hit any more" . Maybe they get suckered in by the "it's not fighting" line. ( that is still open for debate) Which is very very very hard to live up to, if u push the envelope on your training whatsoever .
Pretty much , Dan nailed it. Going " cold" , In other words , contolling or inhibiting the adrenaline dump is why people , whether they know it or not , train. As you get older the expenditure on your body gets too costly never mind losing or winning....
How real and competitive you want to get and where and how u train is entirely up to you.
Just don't pretend it's something else.:dead:

[Gorgeous George]

Hi all I'm up really late had some thoughts popping around my head on what these two are trying to teach and convey, hope you don't mind me sharing. Here they are please feel free to add or comment on anything I've written.

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To win
2. To crush the opponent
3. At any cost ( within the rules)
4. This teaches one how to dominate the opponent
5. This proves Who is physically stronger.

Non-competitive:- Teaches

1. To not lose ( so no one loses).
2. To take care of the opponent
3. So there is no cost to anyone (because there really are no rules)
4. This teaches one how to create harmony.
5. This proves it's not about strength. It's about spirit.

In Budo

Andy B

In my experience, training BJJ, after aikido: there are some people who focus on strength, and winning, in sparring; these people can maybe overwhelm beginners - but when they go with good blue belts (the first graded belt you get in BJJ), or above, their strength is nullified: they have to use technique, if they want to 'win'.

I treat sparring as a learning tool: I have no interest in 'winning' (getting a submission) - only leanring. The great thing about sparring, is that - as opposed to aikido, where someone who gives you whatever sort of resistance, or compliance, they choose to - when someone passes your defence, or armlocks, or chokes you, you can see for yourself where you need to improve; in aikido, someone - in an entirely theoretical setting - just says 'Don't leave an opening there, or someone could do A, B, or C.'; 'losing' (as you seem to view it) leaves you in no doubt as to what you need to improve.

It seems to me that it's a lot of aikidoka who have an ego, and a fear of 'losing' - and that's why they're so threatened by sparring, and hide behind this idea of non-competitiveness.
In BJJ, there's a saying: 'Leave your ego at the door - or somebody will take it from you.' - meaning, it doesn't matter if you get 'beaten' in sparring, because you don't base your self-worth on your place in a hierarchy - the kind of hierarchy you have in, say, aikido, where people line up according to their place in a hierarchy, and there are sempai, and kohai, and you have to respect the guy who's older, and the guy who's trained longer, and the guy who...etc.

There are a lot of smiles at the end of my BJJ classes; I can't say quite the same of the aikido classes i've been to in my time.

And regards point #2 on the non-competitive list:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idrk7sclp-o

Aikido is a great martial art for the egotistical: they never have their delusions challenged; dealing with 'defeat' every time you practice, as in sparring/randori, forces you to be humble.

[Marc Abrams]

As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams

[Gorgeous George]

Competition is about winning, outscoring, proving. Good game but no more than that. It brings about a competitor mindset, a fighting mindset. Once again, good game.

Martial on the other hand is a totally different field of operation and thus a totally different mindset.

The mindset is not how to win or outscore or prove. The mindset is to end. To finish or be finished. No games, no sparring, no round one and two and three. No fighting.

When Jigoro Kano created judo, he added a safe, non-compliant, 'competitive', method to test the techniques' effective; this was called randori.
Before judo, jujutsu was wholly 'martial', and competitons were frequently fatal.

Anyway, one day, the Tokyo police force held a contest between judo - people who trained in a 'sport', 'non-martial' fashion - and a jujutsu school - people who trained in a 'martial' way.
The judoka wiped the floor with the 'true martial artists', and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had judo taight to their officers.

True story.

Then there's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: the Gracies took on all-comers for decades, defeating people who trained compliantly in teh De4dly techniques.
You wouldn't last thirty seconds with a jiu-jitsuka: deal with it.

[Gorgeous George]

As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams

I learned something in my first hour of judo, that I never learned in my first three years of aikido: how to relax my shoulders, and use technique; that's 'competition' for you.

I train with someone who has trained aikido for fifteen (15) years (and in a 'soft' style, at that): he just tenses his arms, and tries to do the technique; put him in a BJJ class, and he'll learn in less than fifteen days how ineffective that is; and therein lies the virtue of honest feedback.

[Garth]

Yes agreed,
If u never have been dominated in a competitive sport or had your eye closed up black from a fight or been raised in a non competitive aikido enviroment which is redundant as defined by the founder.
For u to conceptualize humility and a real conflict is damn near impossible

[Marc Abrams]

I learned something in my first hour of judo, that I never learned in my first three years of aikido: how to relax my shoulders, and use technique; that's 'competition' for you.

I train with someone who has trained aikido for fifteen (15) years (and in a 'soft' style, at that): he just tenses his arms, and tries to do the technique; put him in a BJJ class, and he'll learn in less than fifteen days how ineffective that is; and therein lies the virtue of honest feedback.

Graham Jenkins:

Take it one step further. There is a lot of underlying insecurity in many Aikidoka because they studiously avoided having their skill sets honestly evaluated. This insecurity manifests itself both physically and psychologically in so many ways. Just look at the passive-aggressive, sanctimonious comments from some. Look at the physical tensions when you really grab or strike them. Countless examples.... Too much reliance of competition is just as bad an not having your skill sets "pressure tested."

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[graham christian]

When Jigoro Kano created judo, he added a safe, non-compliant, 'competitive', method to test the techniques' effective; this was called randori.
Before judo, jujutsu was wholly 'martial', and competitons were frequently fatal.

Anyway, one day, the Tokyo police force held a contest between judo - people who trained in a 'sport', 'non-martial' fashion - and a jujutsu school - people who trained in a 'martial' way.
The judoka wiped the floor with the 'true martial artists', and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had judo taight to their officers.

True story.

Then there's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: the Gracies took on all-comers for decades, defeating people who trained compliantly in teh De4dly techniques.
You wouldn't last thirty seconds with a jiu-jitsuka: deal with it.

Now, now. Getting personal once again. Relax, breath....

Last year or so in Birmingham I think at the exhibition center a group of 'martial artists' doing a seminar of some kind ended up fighting with some wwf wrestlers in the bar and got wiped out too. Very funny.

Some older guy in the pub wiped out a scottish national champion martial artist who was 'debt collecting' for some thug firm from his brother. The old glasgow kiss.

All madness...

I wouldn't last ten minutes playing ping pong against a ping pong champ either.

Gracies? Great sportsmen, great martial artists of their art, obviously.

G.

[DH]

Aikido is a great martial art for the egotistical: they never have their delusions challenged; dealing with 'defeat' every time you practice, as in sparring/randori, forces you to be humble.
As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams
I agree with both of these points. As grapplers we grew up losing and learning ...all the time. I have long since lost track of how many times I got my butt handed to me. The only reason I can now do what I do is specifically because of how many times I learned via losing. This was compounded by real life encounters where I could have died. Many TMA teachers seem to be actually afraid of losing or being put in a position where they could lose. Personally, I find some peoples arrogance of entering in on these discussion cheap and cowardly. They never paid the price but want first class tickets. We must avoid saying the truth as the truth is seen as a personal attack, but there is one reason and one reason only that they will never appear on a mat to be stress tested-they know the outcome and they fear it. Curiously, on one level they fawn disinterest, but one the other they can't seem to stop themselves from interjecting into discussions above their paygrade that they claim disinterest in. Thankfully their fear and lack of true ability is transparent to most.
Having the conviction to make their proclaimed martial art skills-Martial- is one of the defining features of men like Bill Gleason or Ellis Amdur, Marc Abrams, Peter Bernath, Ray Cheong, Kevin Leavitt etc., who without reservation, put their asses on the line to see what they could do. And when it was handed back to them...they learned!!!

There is a reason that you seldom-if ever- hear of someone from Aikido who has ever won anything in a martial venue using Aikido or aiki alone to do so. As a martial art- Aikido doesn't work in a Martial sense against someone trained to fight back. For that reason alone we should be giving kudos to those in Aikido who are now stepping out and training IP/aiki and cross training in martial venues, making Aikido work more and more as a martial art. I have a personal interest to those actively training to possess aiki and making aiki both deadly and controlling instead of some artificial harmonious state predicated on totally false parameters.

As much as people complain, in years to come this is more than likely going to be referred to as the new golden age of aikido where Westerners take over the art and make it once again viable instead of relying on the terrible examples and teaching models we were given in the past. Cross training is revitalizing and educating smart people in the art (well most I have met in Budo are actually pretty bright so that's not what I mean) Rather it is the smart people who have started cross training as opposed to those who don't who are changing the art for the better. I think without them the art (well really ALL the arts) would be headed for the grave.
Dan

[DH]

Aikido is a great martial art for the egotistical: they never have their delusions challenged; dealing with 'defeat' every time you practice, as in sparring/randori, forces you to be humble.
As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams
I agree with both of these points. As grapplers we grew up losing and learning ...all the time. I have long since lost track of how many times I got my butt handed to me. The only reason I can now do what I do is specifically because of how many times I learned via losing. This was compounded by real life encounters where I could have died. Many TMA teachers seem to be actually afraid of losing or being put in a position where they could lose. Personally, I find some peoples arrogance of entering in on these discussion cheap and cowardly. They never paid the price but want first class tickets. We must avoid saying the truth as the truth is seen as a personal attack, but there is one reason and one reason only that they will never appear on a mat to be stress tested-they know the outcome and they fear it. Curiously, on one level they fawn disinterest, but one the other they can't seem to stop themselves from interjecting into discussions above their paygrade that they claim disinterest in. Thankfully their fear and lack of true ability is transparent to most.
Having the conviction to make their proclaimed martial art skills-Martial- is one of the defining features of men like Bill Gleason or Ellis Amdur, Marc Abrams, Peter Bernath, Ray Cheong, Kevin Leavitt etc., who without reservation, put their asses on the line to see what they could do. And when it was handed back to them...they learned!!!

There is a reason that you seldom-if ever- hear of someone from Aikido who has ever won anything in a martial venue using Aikido or aiki alone to do so. As a martial art- Aikido doesn't work in a Martial sense against someone trained to fight back. For that reason alone we should be giving kudos to those in Aikido who are now stepping out and training IP/aiki and cross training in martial venues, making Aikido work more and more as a martial art. I have a personal interest to those actively training to possess aiki and making aiki both deadly and controlling instead of some artificial harmonious state predicated on totally false parameters. I agree with the increasing number of Aikido-ka who are summarily rejecting the over cooperative, falsely harmonious model that Aikido was for them.

As much as people complain, in years to come this is more than likely going to be referred to as the new golden age of aikido where Westerners take over the art and make it once again viable instead of relying on the terrible examples and teaching models we were given in the past. Cross training is revitalizing and educating smart people in the art (well most I have met in Budo are actually pretty bright so that's not what I mean) Rather it is the smart people who have started cross training as opposed to those who don't who are changing the art for the better. I think without them the art (well really ALL the arts) would be headed for the grave.
Dan

[DH]

When Jigoro Kano created judo, he added a safe, non-compliant, 'competitive', method to test the techniques' effective; this was called randori.
Before judo, jujutsu was wholly 'martial', and competitons were frequently fatal.

Anyway, one day, the Tokyo police force held a contest between judo - people who trained in a 'sport', 'non-martial' fashion - and a jujutsu school - people who trained in a 'martial' way.
The judoka wiped the floor with the 'true martial artists', and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had judo taight to their officers.

Hi Graham this is actually a myth made up out of whole clothy that never happened. I had the researched history on my other computer I will see if I can dig it up.

From Graham to someone else
You wouldn't last thirty seconds with a jiu-jitsuka: deal with it.
Love it!! :D :D :D :D ;) ;) :cool:
Everyone has an opinion on the internet, funny they rarely if ever work out when I meet them, too!
For some, I often think "Welcome to the real world of the martial arts you only imagined you are a part of!"
Dan

[Marc Abrams]

There is a reason that you seldom-if ever- hear of someone from Aikido who has ever won anything in a martial venue using Aikido or aiki alone to do so. As a martial art- Aikido doesn't work in a Martial sense against someone trained to fight back. For that reason alone we should be giving kudos to those in Aikido who are now stepping out and training IP/aiki and cross training in martial venues, making Aikido work more and more as a martial art. I have a personal interest to those actively training to possess aiki and making aiki both deadly and controlling instead of some artificial harmonious state predicated on totally false parameters. I agree with the increasing number of Aikido-ka who are summarily rejecting the over cooperative, falsely harmonious model that Aikido was for them.

Dan

Dan:

It depends of course upon how you define "Aikido." If you associate "Aikido" with the overly cooperative, falsely harmonious model, then I absolutely agree with you. As you know, not all of us ascribe to that model, nor do we seek to emulate it. The couple of times that I have had to use "Aikido," I was not only surprised that I did what I did, but further surprised that the stuff really worked! I am honest enough to acknowledge that most of my martial arts and fighting sports time up until that point in time had trained me to be able to function within a genuine fight. Without that experience, I seriously doubt that my Aikido training alone would have enabled me to do what I did.

It is sad that people have to step out of the predominant training model in order to re-introduce important aspects of Aikido that have genuinely faded into almost background noise. It is a hopeful sign that there is a growing group of Aikidoka who are seriously training with people such as yourself. These people are also reworking their own teaching and training paradigms so as to be able to effectively teach and train in form of Aikido that contains the IP/Aiki skills that some of the legendary teachers in Aikido exhibited (or exhibit today). I am hopeful in that many in that group recognize that a critical component moving forward must be a teaching methodology that is both effective and efficient.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[Gorgeous George]

Now, now. Getting personal once again. Relax, breath....

I wouldn't last ten minutes playing ping pong against a ping pong champ either.

*breathe

...but you don't train techniques that are supposed to work in 'ping pong', genius; awful, awful analogy.

[Gorgeous George]

Hi Graham this is actually a myth made up out of whole clothy that never happened. I had the researched history on my other computer I will see if I can dig it up.

From Graham to someone else
.
Love it!! :D :D :D :D ;) ;) :cool:
Everyone has an opinion on the internet, funny they rarely if ever work out when I meet them, too!
For some, I often think "Welcome to the real world of the martial arts you only imagined you are a part of!"
Dan

Really? Wow: i've read that in several places, too - it's a big part of judo's history, I believe.

Regards who I said that to: a namesake - have you blocked him? I can well believe you have; I might take the same route, soon.

I hope you're well.

[graham christian]

Story of this and that, these guys did this to these guys. Oh well....

Personal experiences equals that means. Oh dear.....

In that case I have many as I'm sure many other aikidoka have when training with folks from other arts.

I've never met one who didn't say' hold on a minute, how do you do that?'

Shouldn't be surprising to anyone who knows Aikido as most other arts haven't ever experienced the art of no fighting.

There's only one reality really and that is each different art presents a different set of problems.

Good to learn from in order to get better at your own art.

It's never ultimately the art which is better anyway, it's the person.

As any good poker player knows or chess player or any other player for that matter knows.

Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally.

Plenty of challenges faced, plenty of challenges to come, ain't life great?

Aikido is great.

G.

[Garth]

"Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally."

Graham ,
Forget boasting. What about training for meeting the 10%ers when they want something from you other than the right to boast on the Internet . I mean , how many times and different ways are we going to have the "cooperative training " argument?
Some people need and or want to be concerned with the "thugs"
Sincerely
G

[DH]

Really? Wow: i've read that in several places, too - it's a big part of judo's history, I believe.
Too much to do and going to dinner I'll try to dig it up. It is flat out false though.

Regards who I said that to: a namesake - have you blocked him? I can well believe you have; I might take the same route, soon.

I hope you're well.
I liken the mindset to Taiji. You see millions doing that for health and harmony and they practice some rather pallid push hands. No harm no foul until you see the same people B.S. ing themselves and others that they are part of the tradition of internal power in Taiji. It's pretty sad to touch hands with them and see all hope vanish from their eyes. Then and only then do they realize they never truly had any part of the martial art tradition that is taiji.
It's why the internet in some ways just fosters that nonsense on one level but it has introduced so many people to cross training with others that it has also exposed the obvious failures. Some -not all- know their place, others really are delusional and think the stuff they get away with would actually work as a martial art. The only thing to do is to offer people greater exposure and scrutiny. Then the issue tends to take care of themselves. Stop and think, we have thousand of Aikidoka out doing BJJ, MMA, Judo and Internal training, koryu weapons-many times due to the internet!
Dan

[Kevin Leavitt]

I was an "Aikidoka" long before I became a competitive Jiu Jitsu Player. I also have competed in Judo and done fairly well at that too. I progressed faster than normal in BJJ because of my aikido background so you can definitely say I suppose that an "aikidoka" has been successful in BJJ. Roy Dean is another one.

That said, competitive BJJ is a very focused sport. I even train differently for tournaments than I normally train. It is a much narrower focused "game". Any judoka will also tell you that training for competition is a very focused practice vice training in the complete curriculum of judo.

I have never competed in Sambo, but it is similar to Judo and BJJ, yet again with a different set of rules, that calls for a different practice and fight strategy. Now if I trained in Sambo for a while, I'd probably progress very quickly there too.

Yet, if I were on the mat, in Judo, Sambo, or BJJ...you'd not say "hey that guys is using Judo in a Sambo tournament...yeah there'd probably be some DNA left over. In fact, in the European Championships (BJJ) in January that I competed in, you can definitely see the influences of Judo more in Europe whereas Wrestling seems to dominate more in the USA.

That said, you develop efficient fight games around the rules. Over the years coaches and instructors develop good training methodologies to win at these sport contest.

While good Aikido....taught as a core principle based system, definitely helps, the principles of Aiki are foundational and universal and NOT STYLISTIC. That is why you cannot see "Aikido" being used in a contest.

It tells alot about someones level of understanding of martial arts when they wish to see an Aikidoka be successful in sport. They are out there...I do well having won a few NAGA tournaments and a few European Championships in BJJ over the years and I am an Aikidoka. Roy Dean has done well too!

That said it is laughable and irrelevant to me to boast that I am using "Aikido" to win a contest.

I try and apply the principles I have learned over the years and I am trying to learn more and more when I can spend the time with those that have decent skills in Aiki. It is hard work and takes time to learn aiki....it has to be balanced too and priorities have to be set, IMO, on what you spend your time on in training....but that is another subject!

Aikido uses the structure of a mid-range Jiu Jitsu system in order to teach the principles of aiki. However, it is not the jiu jitsu skills that are important, but the other things you learn through that framework that are important.

Unfortunately, too many focus on the framework and stylism and being definable as Aiki or Aikido and if you can never get past that...well you will only progress so far.

[DH]

Dan:

It depends of course upon how you define "Aikido." If you associate "Aikido" with the overly cooperative, falsely harmonious model, then I absolutely agree with you. As you know, not all of us ascribe to that model, nor do we seek to emulate it. The couple of times that I have had to use "Aikido," I was not only surprised that I did what I did, but further surprised that the stuff really worked! I am honest enough to acknowledge that most of my martial arts and fighting sports time up until that point in time had trained me to be able to function within a genuine fight. Without that experience, I seriously doubt that my Aikido training alone would have enabled me to do what I did.

It is sad that people have to step out of the predominant training model in order to re-introduce important aspects of Aikido that have genuinely faded into almost background noise. It is a hopeful sign that there is a growing group of Aikidoka who are seriously training with people such as yourself. These people are also reworking their own teaching and training paradigms so as to be able to effectively teach and train in form of Aikido that contains the IP/Aiki skills that some of the legendary teachers in Aikido exhibited (or exhibit today). I am hopeful in that many in that group recognize that a critical component moving forward must be a teaching methodology that is both effective and efficient.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Bud
I thought I had your points pretty well covered and we agreed. I have to go to dinner.

Got your P.M. / voice mail I don't see any issues there but I have just been too jammed; teaching, playing, planning seminars to get back.
Talk to you later
Dan

[Kevin Leavitt]

Story of this and that, these guys did this to these guys. Oh well....

Personal experiences equals that means. Oh dear.....

In that case I have many as I'm sure many other aikidoka have when training with folks from other arts.

I've never met one who didn't say' hold on a minute, how do you do that?'

Shouldn't be surprising to anyone who knows Aikido as most other arts haven't ever experienced the art of no fighting.

There's only one reality really and that is each different art presents a different set of problems.

Good to learn from in order to get better at your own art.

It's never ultimately the art which is better anyway, it's the person.

As any good poker player knows or chess player or any other player for that matter knows.

Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally.

Plenty of challenges faced, plenty of challenges to come, ain't life great?

Aikido is great.

G.

Speaking of Chess.....There is a "very good" chess player out there named Josh Waitzkins. Google him, go to Amazon, and by his book, the "Art of Learning". I encourage all my BJJ students to read this book at the blue belt level.

Josh gets it 100%. What it takes to win in high level sport and in life.

Ironically Josh left chess behind after "mastering" it, and moved on to Shan Shou and Tai Chi. And guess what...now he is working with Marcelo Garcia in BJJ up in New York!

It is more than saying "hey hold on a minute, how do you do that!". It requires development of a completely different way and methods of training that most folks don't have the time or conviction (heart) to do.

...buy the book and read it, it sums up very succinctly everything we are discussing here.

[DH]

While good Aikido....taught as a core principle based system, definitely helps, the principles of Aiki are foundational and universal and NOT STYLISTIC. That is why you cannot see "Aikido" being used in a contest.
It tells alot about someones level of understanding of martial arts when they wish to see an Aikidoka be successful in sport. They are out there...I do well having won a few NAGA tournaments and a few European Championships in BJJ over the years and I am an Aikidoka. Roy Dean has done well too!

That said it is laughable and irrelevant to me to boast that I am using "Aikido" to win a contest.

I try and apply the principles I have learned over the years and I am trying to learn more and more when I can spend the time with those that have decent skills in Aiki. It is hard work and takes time to learn aiki....it has to be balanced too and priorities have to be set, IMO, on what you spend your time on in training....but that is another subject!

Aikido uses the structure of a mid-range Jiu Jitsu system in order to teach the principles of aiki. However, it is not the jiu jitsu skills that are important, but the other things you learn through that framework that are important.

Unfortunately, too many focus on the framework and stylism and being definable as Aiki or Aikido and if you can never get past that...well you will only progress so far.

I think? I am disagreeing with you.
Aiki...that is Aikido's original aiki is absolutely useful and utilitarian in competitive sport or MMA. and as Sagawa said "Instantly observable upon touch as being different."
Thus we should be able to see Aiki used in competition. Not on it's own as if you are magically going to know how to fight, but also providing people cross trained to learn to fight in various venues it becomes a serious and advantageous attribute.
Dan

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dan....no we are on the same page. I am referring to EXTERNAL aikido. things like sankyo, irimi nage etc.

I would agree with you based on your definition Dan. Observable on touch, but to the ordinary person watching the contest they would not be able to see the difference.

I think that those that had a high level of skill would not even consider the trivial point of advertising the fact that they were an "aikidoka". I believe it becomes pointless when you get to a high level of skill as you simply do what you do within the parameters of the rules.

Not that I am a high level guy...but I don't train in differently or flip a switch when I do aikido or BJJ, I simply work within the constraints of what is presented to me in my training. I do not limit myself to a particular set of skills.

[graham christian]

"Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally."

Graham ,
Forget boasting. What about training for meeting the 10%ers when they want something from you other than the right to boast on the Internet . I mean , how many times and different ways are we going to have the "cooperative training " argument?
Some people need and or want to be concerned with the "thugs"
Sincerely
G

Gregory. This isn't some competition about co operative training except in peoples heads as far as I'm concerned.

Thugs I deal with, no special training needed.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

Speaking of Chess.....There is a "very good" chess player out there named Josh Waitzkins. Google him, go to Amazon, and by his book, the "Art of Learning". I encourage all my BJJ students to read this book at the blue belt level.

Josh gets it 100%. What it takes to win in high level sport and in life.

Ironically Josh left chess behind after "mastering" it, and moved on to Shan Shou and Tai Chi. And guess what...now he is working with Marcelo Garcia in BJJ up in New York!

It is more than saying "hey hold on a minute, how do you do that!". It requires development of a completely different way and methods of training that most folks don't have the time or conviction (heart) to do.

...buy the book and read it, it sums up very succinctly everything we are discussing here.

My Teacher was a very good chess player too. I mean very good, he used to play twenty at a time in charity events. He drew once with chess master at the time from cuba. That was his level he reached and it had taken over his life to such an extent it ended up chess or his wife. The wife won.

That's probably why I mentioned it for listening to him explain all about the why's and wherefores over the years I think I have heard enough.

Please no more! ARghhhhhhhh......

Regards.G.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams

Seconded.

Anyway, one day, the Tokyo police force held a contest between judo - people who trained in a 'sport', 'non-martial' fashion - and a jujutsu school - people who trained in a 'martial' way.
The judoka wiped the floor with the 'true martial artists', and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had judo taight to their officers.

True story.

No, it's not true.

OTOH, I agree whith the other things you wrote.

[matty_mojo911]

Well, I disagree with many of the ideas being presented as mutually exclusive.
I've done my aikido in open rooms: With gloves/Without gloves, With gi/Without gi, in MMA and BJJ schools, and as a third kyu totally dominating every shihan I have ever met....with no change in me doing much of anything..... but Morihei Ueshiba's Aiki.
No problems at all.
Dan

Wooh.....woooh...hold the horse on this one Dan. Please tell me what BJJ school you've gone to and dominated them at with aikido. Flick me the name, so I can confirm that. I don't mean to be disrespectful but I sense gross exageration here.

[gregstec]

IMO, sports is competitive and the study of budo is not; the former has rules and clear definitions of who loses and who wins - the latter has rules but there does not have to be a loser or winner; there is an exchange and both sides can be considered winners if they learn.

Now bar/street fighting is an entirely different animal, and contrary to what Dan says, there are really no rules - however, there will be conditioned behavioral responses based upon any martial training and other gender behavioral patterns that makes up the person - that is why men and women have different response actions in a fight - trust me, no one is thinking what to do next, they are simply responding based on their conditioned experiences and training. Of course, I think there are also some instinctive survival stuff going on as well, but that is so subjective it would be difficult to detail in a general discussion.

Now military combative situations are something entirely different and only those that have experience or training in that environment can provide any realistic information about that.

Greg

[Walter Martindale]

IMO, sports is competitive and the study of budo is not; the former has rules and clear definitions of who loses and who wins - the latter has rules but there does not have to be a loser or winner; there is an exchange and both sides can be considered winners if they learn.

Now bar/street fighting is an entirely different animal, and contrary to what Dan says, there are really no rules - however, there will be conditioned behavioral responses based upon any martial training and other gender behavioral patterns that makes up the person - that is why men and women have different response actions in a fight - trust me, no one is thinking what to do next, they are simply responding based on their conditioned experiences and training. Of course, I think there are also some instinctive survival stuff going on as well, but that is so subjective it would be difficult to detail in a general discussion.

Now military combative situations are something entirely different and only those that have experience or training in that environment can provide any realistic information about that.

Greg

Operational definitions of fighting... A fight, to me, is something without rules, and there are survivors and maybe someone who shows mercy and doesn't finish the job.
a "scrap" or a "punch up" is more like what happens on the NHL or north american ice hockey, where there are unwritten rules about how long you keep going and you stop when the ref sticks his arm in.
A "match" is something with rules of engagement like MMA/Octagon/Judo/Karate/TKD cocmpetitions. They resemble fights, but there's someone there to stop it if it gets too real.

I've never been in a "punch up" or a "fight" but I've been in a lot of "matches" (judo) - only one of them ever felt like it was starting to be a "fight"... the ref intervened and calmed us down..

Combat - haven't done that, either, but hand to hand combat would be only after the air support, artillery, rifles, pistols, edged weapons were rendered inoperative or unsuccessfully deployed...

IMO, anyway.
W

W

[DH]

Wooh.....woooh...hold the horse on this one Dan. Please tell me what BJJ school you've gone to and dominated them with aikido. Flick me the name, so I can confirm that. I don't mean to be disrespectful but I sense gross exageration here.
A. You don't understand what I am talking about as.... aikido. I am talking about aiki, and it is not what any shihan in the art I have ever seen is capable of.

B. I've never exaggerated on these issues a day in my living life. In fact I have held waaaay back from mentioning things that have occurred in open rooms for years now . In addition, to Bjj and MMA guys with fight records there are many people here who have seen things against experts in other fields. One caution. I don't play Bjj or wrestle. I stick to no gi and fight rules.

C. I don't really much care whether you believe it or not. Being called a liar is almost routine for me on Aikiweb and E-budo. I have NEVER had to apologize for stating something I could do. The only consistent thing I have experienced on the internet and related to the internet is the incredible number of times I have been apologized to.... after they find out how much I don't say....out of politeness.

Dan

[DH]

IMO, sports is competitive and the study of budo is not; the former has rules and clear definitions of who loses and who wins - the latter has rules but there does not have to be a loser or winner; there is an exchange and both sides can be considered winners if they learn.

Now bar/street fighting is an entirely different animal, and contrary to what Dan says, there are really no rules - however, there will be conditioned behavioral responses based upon any martial training and other gender behavioral patterns that makes up the person - that is why men and women have different response actions in a fight - trust me, no one is thinking what to do next, they are simply responding based on their conditioned experiences and training. Of course, I think there are also some instinctive survival stuff going on as well, but that is so subjective it would be difficult to detail in a general discussion.
Greg
Er...contrary to what I said?
How are you doing anything but restating what I did say?:confused:
6. You fight for different reasons. Sport fighting has rules. Believe it or not most bar fights have preconditioned "rules" implied or through conditioning;.......
I'll leave the military stuff out as I don't like to talk above my paygrade. My observations WERE my paygrade.

[TheAikidoka]

A thought provoking post indeed. For those with the acute awareness of my post will notice, I actually did not criticise anything! It was simply a statement of MY observations, and I simply asked for thoughts on them.

To nick regnier, you seem to understand my intentions here. It is not about good or bad or wright and wrong. Personally I think they are both equally important because at there core they are trying to teach the same thing, how to be present enough in a possible dangerous situation and how to deal with it, at this level competioin hardly comes into it, it is indeed a moot point.

However when we then talk about applying the principles of whatever art we are practicing ito daily life, we only have to switch on the news at night or read a history book of 20th century to see the complete madness of the collective competitive human mind. That's my most honest humble opinion. For what it's worth, I can truly see why O'sensei removed it, isn't it so blatantly obvious, and hidden in plain sight,........ Sorry Ellis if you read this, I couldn't resist.

In Budo

Andy B

[TheAikidoka]

Hi Dave
Just about any fight exists within rules. Sparring for the most always happens with agreed rules-and then most people who spar- are doing it to experiment and learn, sometimes for competition, sometimes not.
Training-to me- exists on three levels
1. You do solo work to change the mind/body
2. You do push/ pull stress testing to learn to condition the mind/body- to forces against it.
3. You do static martial arts kata (including drills in sport oriented forms like Judo BJJ and wrestling) to learn principles of movement and to condition the mind/ body for use in technique.
4. You do flow drills to condition the body and to learn how to make those principles and techniques happen against someone who doesn't want them to happen to them at speed.
5. You spar to test and better learn how to utilize all of your training in a more pressurized yet controlled environment. For most people this only included people in one style. This included almost all competition.
6. You fight for different reasons. Sport fighting has rules. Believe it or not most bar fights have preconditioned "rules" implied or through conditioning;

Men will almost never kick you in the balls (women almost always do) So there is a natural inhibitory factor for men to not do that over women
Men will almost never pull hair (women almost always do) though I did see guys hold on to a guy's beard while they pummeled him on two different occasions.
Both will almost always grab you to try and close the distance
Women will almost certainly try to embarrass and rip the clothes and pull earings of women. For men (unless it is hockey where they need the counter balance on the rink) it is usually accidental.
Women don't usually punch in the face-it is the number target for men.
Women will scratch at face and eyes -I have seen a man do that
Both will defend their friends and start gang fighting...you.
Men used furniture -chairs, pool cues, pool balls.
Neither that I have seen go for a lethal attack to the throat.
Only men-in my experience will change on you and go lethal.
I have only had a knife (pulled on me and others) by men.

This is from my experience hanging out with bikers in the 70's and also being a bouncer and watching You tube videos and talking with other bouncers. Things may be different today and in different cultures.

My main point here is that fighting- for strange reasons- typically included inhibitors without being stated. As an alternate example (for reasons I will not discuss here) I know professionals that will go for your eyes, balls, and throat to stop you and then kill you. One of which ended with a huge guy opened up from crotch to ear as he bled out on top of the guy below him. Their idea of a fight is a bit different for some pretty serious reasons. Now, oddly, while they need to make it home over any perceived notion of rules, their peers on a different day, may have to function within very defined rules.

So, competition with rules is not as artificial as some claim, yet it is also a big jump toward a more reality based martial art experience. Sparring is another level that Aikido randori does not come close to covering.
Most so called martial artists -in real fight would- prove to be neither martial or an artists in any sense of the word. The reasons for that are simple. other than in your own imagination, you are never going to be able to pull off what you do in a dojo in a stress induced adrenaline-dump state, unless you have done that so many times you can go cold and move freely.
In fact most Martial artists (and by the way MMA and Bjj guys) when they start to get totally dominated and picked apart while getting pummeled, amp up and stress and start to gas. And when they see the other guy cold...instantly realize they are in trouble. I've seen a couple of guys talking to the guy as the beat the crap out of him, thus putting the nail in the coffin that they are head hunting and not stressed in the least way. That alone controls their mindset even further.

On the whole I don't think it is wise for the majority of Aikido people to even be in these discussions. Due to the nature of their training, they really have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to combatives. It is the another one reason they have earned a reputation for falling apart under stress against better trained Martial artists sport or otherwise. I am not saying all Aikido-ka as I know and have met guys around the world who cross train and are extremely capable. They will be the first to tell you that their aikido has soared to new heights because of it.

In closing I don't want to hear some nitwit telling me I am bashing aikido again. I think I am on the cutting edge of making Aikido extremely powerful again-in dojos around the world filled with Aikido teachers. Why? Because I have a love for what Morihei Ueshiba was trying to do and say, and he would be behind this movement 100%.
Dan

Dan why are you opposed to people's observations and point taking, did I criticise anything, no! Just My observations and thoughts. Mine :-) but I guess having a thought like " O'sensei would understand me and be 100% behind ME!", and then believing it does not give much room for others, thoughts and ideas now does it? Oh my, that does sound like one has a massive ego issue from one who should really know better.

And on the point of not having any competative experience how would you know. ( yes now I'm annoyed now). I went toa school which had one of the worst cases for drug taking, teenage pregnancies, and bullying rates in the country. Guess what category I fell into being a shy quiet kinda of a lonely person, yeah you guest it, the school punch bag, yep every school has one and if they deny it they are only deluding themselves. I got beat up everyday pretty much in school, why, because I "appeared" to be different, so I was bullied throught my school years, I learned if I just take it things will turn out ok, telling someone would have been ( and was a joke), that just made it ten times worse. But I realised even then that this was due to a competative mind. I didn't have the right blazer, old worn shoes, my parents were on welfare so I had free school meals, instead being able to by sweets like the rest of the kids, and they knew it. Having to borrow kit from the school because I didn't have any of my own then getting constantly teased for it. I myself dd not have probem with my so called lack, because inside I was free of all of it. This is all down to the mental, and believe me it is mental!, the mental conditioning of constant competition that is endemic in society.

7 years later I was partaking in an aikido demonstration in my home town (which I had left for several years), at least 4 of the worst offenders saw that demonstration, and came upto me afterwords and apologised almost on bended knees for what they did, and they saw that it was due to competition that they were conditioned almost to play and act it out. And do you know what I said Dan, that's ok too, Jesus said on the cross forgive them father for they do not know what they do! Why would you want to hurt somebody back who do not know what they are doing? And this I understood when I was in school that's whyI didn't fight back, because they truly did not know what they were doing, and I could not hurt them back for it.

And what do you know, I still am.

In Budo

[TheAikidoka]

Now all those following this post, read my last post and my reply to Dan, now what do say on my original posting in the grand scheme of things. Ideas please, and thank you all for participating in this discussion.

In Budo

Andy B

[DH]

Dan why are you opposed to people's observations and point taking, did I criticise anything, no! Just My observations and thoughts. Mine :-)
And what do you know, I still am.

In Budo
Mr. Bedford
I have no idea what you are talking about or who you are.
I was addressing Dave and his points. I don't recall ever referring to the OP.
Dan

[gregstec]

Er...contrary to what I said?
How are you doing anything but restating what I did say?:confused:

I'll leave the military stuff out as I don't like to talk above my paygrade. My observations WERE my paygrade.

Well, you used the word 'rules' in a bar room fight context - I understood what you were saying, but I would just have left the word 'rule' out to avoid the chance of any misunderstanding - 'precondition' and 'condition' are sufficient enough, IMO :)

ps: the military part was not in response to anything you said; some of us are very familiar with your paygrade; and how well it can hurt :D

Greg

[Kevin Leavitt]

OP...you seem to have shift your focus from competitive martial methodologies to competition as in fighting over scarce resources, bullying, and other social issues in which people attempt to impose their will over others for personal gain.

These are completely different perspectives and frankly there are a lot of causes for these negative things. There are many examples where competitive sports programs have been introduced in these environments and have improved the sitiuation .

If your question is about discussing ways to stem or resolve social problems in these environments...let's first define the problems adequately and identify the issues clearly. If you state a very ethereal and open ended question as your original post was...well u get the answers you got.

Love to discuss these issues, but seems like you are gunning for a one sided answer that states that non competitive practices are the best way to address. That is fine for purposes of debate, but you can't redefine or introduce new constraints or parameters to the equation.

[matty_mojo911]

C. I don't really much care whether you believe it or not. Being called a liar is almost routine for me on Aikiweb and E-budo. I have NEVER had to apologize for stating something I could do. The only consistent thing I have experienced on the internet and related to the internet is the incredible number of times I have been apologized to.... after they find out how much I don't say....out of politeness.

Dan

Fair call, but I'm not calling you a liar, just saying that I think you are exagerating.

Anyway I can relate as I've defeated many people with my inner Aiki, my inner Ki (call it what you want it doesn't matter most people don't understand it anyway) including plenty of MMA fighters and BJJ practictioners. Hell yeah they even say sorry to me later because they doubted me, you've got to respect them for that. It's all cool Dan, I know where you're coming from, most people don't but at least we have an understanding.

[TheAikidoka]

For me, the practice of martial arts, have always been a practice bigger than the physical techniques themselves. I again urge those who do not understand to re-read my original post. Here I proposed to put down in some kind of logical flow, what is the underpinning principles that are taught from a competative and non-competative perspectives, or attitude. And you know what, I did not judge even my own thoughts,

Now if we do not try our utmost, what difference will it make training in this or that technique, if we are truly to change the minds of contention, which is another way of saying the out dated competative mind, we must see the madness first, if we believe ( and belief is only another thought form) that I am right you are wrong, or add things to gain a better sense of self ( look at what I'm doing and O'sensei would agree with me) we are already trapped in the competative mind stream and are guilty just as everyone else's.

How do we break this, first teach people not to lose, so that nobody loses. Teach them to have that sense of control over an aggressive determined attacker. But not with the sense of having to control or to dominate, but with a kind of empathy that allows that person to be just as he is and have deffinate control of the situation, dominate the situation not the person! Remove the personal me from the situation.

"Look at that guy and see what he has done to me and oh ok he wants to fight I'm gonna show him I can beat him with X Y Z, technique from such and such an art, and that will prove me right if I beat him up and completely dominate him and smash him to the ground."

You have to see the madness, before you can come up with cure for it.

Shouldn't Budo be for the greater good. BUDO " A WAY TO PUT A STOP TO CONTENDING SPEARS"
If not then there really is not much point, anything less is dare I say it childish. I'm right your wrong so let's have an argument about it, it's still contending!

There comes a point, when you are a teacher of whatever it maybe, and you ask yourself the question.
"will this help the greater good, or am I doing something that adds to the madness?"

In Budo

Andy B

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Shouldn't Budo be for the greater good. BUDO " A WAY TO PUT A STOP TO CONTENDING SPEARS"
If not then there really is not much point, anything less is dare I say it childish. I'm right your wrong so let's have an argument about it, it's still contending!



http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13647

[Garth]

Man in the Arena

One of the top three most requested quotes is that regarding the "man in the arena" or "not the critic"

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

Below are additional quotations related to the more famous and later quote. These quotes taken from a cdrom - The Works of Theodore Roosevelt - National Edition, A PRODUCT OF H-BAR ENTERPRISES COPYRIGHT 1997

"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done." (1891)

"Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger." (1894)

The competitive mind or model is not outdated Andrew. Never will be . This from a hundred years ago.
I'm sure we can go back to the beginning and find similar quotes.
I consider that a criticism .
How do we reconcile the fact that Osensei once enlightened, espoused the spirit of that which you speak., but spent most of his life competing against the bullies, the establishment.
And being one of the few who figured it out, left most all, in fact told all to figure it out for yourselves.
I believe to Terry Dobson in his book.
Or that the people who came to challenge him and Tohei and Shirata and others certainly were on the " losing" side of a competition, a fight, an argument or whatever you choose to call it.

[gregstec]

IMO, sports is competitive and the study of budo is not; the former has rules and clear definitions of who loses and who wins - the latter has rules but there does not have to be a loser or winner; there is an exchange and both sides can be considered winners if they learn.

Now bar/street fighting is an entirely different animal, and contrary to what Dan says, there are really no rules - however, there will be conditioned behavioral responses based upon any martial training and other gender behavioral patterns that makes up the person - that is why men and women have different response actions in a fight - trust me, no one is thinking what to do next, they are simply responding based on their conditioned experiences and training. Of course, I think there are also some instinctive survival stuff going on as well, but that is so subjective it would be difficult to detail in a general discussion.

Now military combative situations are something entirely different and only those that have experience or training in that environment can provide any realistic information about that.

Greg

Just a little clarification on my post; I was a little rushed when I placed it out there.

First, my post was not in response to anyone's particular post - I was just stating my thoughts on the competition vs non-competitive things in the context of fights and martial engagements starting at highly competitive sports fighting with a lot of rules up to the other extreme of military combat with essentially no rules. Dan's use of the word 'rules' in a bar fight context caught my eye - I just do not associate the word 'rule' with any real fight. However, I agree with all he stated there - I would just have used the term preconditioned or conditioned behavioral tendencies instead :)

As for the military combative comment, that also was not made in response to any particular post - It was just a general statement saying I feel only those with experience or training in that area should provide input on topics talking about it. For example, If Kevin Leavitt talked about it, I would listen because I know his military background as compared to someone I know that has no military background - that is all.

Greg

[nickregnier1]

Dan why are you opposed to people's observations and point taking, did I criticise anything, no! Just My observations and thoughts. Mine :-) but I guess having a thought like " O'sensei would understand me and be 100% behind ME!", and then believing it does not give much room for others, thoughts and ideas now does it? Oh my, that does sound like one has a massive ego issue from one who should really know better.

And on the point of not having any competative experience how would you know. ( yes now I'm annoyed now). I went toa school which had one of the worst cases for drug taking, teenage pregnancies, and bullying rates in the country. Guess what category I fell into being a shy quiet kinda of a lonely person, yeah you guest it, the school punch bag, yep every school has one and if they deny it they are only deluding themselves. I got beat up everyday pretty much in school, why, because I "appeared" to be different, so I was bullied throught my school years, I learned if I just take it things will turn out ok, telling someone would have been ( and was a joke), that just made it ten times worse. But I realised even then that this was due to a competative mind. I didn't have the right blazer, old worn shoes, my parents were on welfare so I had free school meals, instead being able to by sweets like the rest of the kids, and they knew it. Having to borrow kit from the school because I didn't have any of my own then getting constantly teased for it. I myself dd not have probem with my so called lack, because inside I was free of all of it. This is all down to the mental, and believe me it is mental!, the mental conditioning of constant competition that is endemic in society.

7 years later I was partaking in an aikido demonstration in my home town (which I had left for several years), at least 4 of the worst offenders saw that demonstration, and came upto me afterwords and apologised almost on bended knees for what they did, and they saw that it was due to competition that they were conditioned almost to play and act it out. And do you know what I said Dan, that's ok too, Jesus said on the cross forgive them father for they do not know what they do! Why would you want to hurt somebody back who do not know what they are doing? And this I understood when I was in school that's whyI didn't fight back, because they truly did not know what they were doing, and I could not hurt them back for it.

And what do you know, I still am.

In Budo

A thought provoking post indeed. For those with the acute awareness of my post will notice, I actually did not criticise anything! It was simply a statement of MY observations, and I simply asked for thoughts on them.

To nick regnier, you seem to understand my intentions here. It is not about good or bad or wright and wrong. Personally I think they are both equally important because at there core they are trying to teach the same thing, how to be present enough in a possible dangerous situation and how to deal with it, at this level competioin hardly comes into it, it is indeed a moot point.

However when we then talk about applying the principles of whatever art we are practicing ito daily life, we only have to switch on the news at night or read a history book of 20th century to see the complete madness of the collective competitive human mind. That's my most honest humble opinion. For what it's worth, I can truly see why O'sensei removed it, isn't it so blatantly obvious, and hidden in plain sight,........ Sorry Ellis if you read this, I couldn't resist.

In Budo

Andy B

Dear Andy,
I could not agree more with you and I am pleased you found strength in Aikido and you are a truly gentleman who has a good heart. Your Aikido will go far.
All the best.

Nick Regnier

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon

[phitruong]

OP...you seem to have shift your focus from competitive martial methodologies to competition as in fighting over scarce resources, bullying, and other social issues in which people attempt to impose their will over others for personal gain.

These are completely different perspectives and frankly there are a lot of causes for these negative things. There are many examples where competitive sports programs have been introduced in these environments and have improved the sitiuation .

If your question is about discussing ways to stem or resolve social problems in these environments...let's first define the problems adequately and identify the issues clearly. If you state a very ethereal and open ended question as your original post was...well u get the answers you got.

Love to discuss these issues, but seems like you are gunning for a one sided answer that states that non competitive practices are the best way to address. That is fine for purposes of debate, but you can't redefine or introduce new constraints or parameters to the equation.

+1 and me too :)

question to OP, have you done any martial arts competition?

[TheAikidoka]

To all who have commented,
Thank you. The reason I strongly worded my reponse to dan is that I take offence (intended or not) at being called a nitwit, wehn the person has no clue to my martial and military background. Simple as that really. But Dan is too of course entitled to his opinon and thats ok.

To mr steckel, I have no problen whatsover with what you have contributed with in this thread.
To mr Gregory Gargiso, I dont beleive the competative mind is a model and again I repeat the madness of can be seen by reading a history book. One example, of recent events, of the burning of the quran pages in afganistan this week, because somebody may have burned a few pages from a spiritual text the go out and murder other human beings. That my friend is non other than the compettive religious mind, and it is madness. No different to what happened leading up to the disastrous events of world war 2, and nobody I know would call that sane!

Anyone who says I am this religion I am that religion and lets fight about who is right, may as well be a child running round the room saying I`m a fire engine or a policeman, than another child over hears it and says no your not, and so they end up fighting over noithing really

All the same, Gregory your post dffianately had some food for thhought so to speak.

To nick,
Thank you once again for your support, I see this very much as a meeting of minds. Domo Arigato.

In Budo

Andy B

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Hi Andrew,

Is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52J4N1yegGg) you?

[TheAikidoka]

Hi Andrew,

Is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52J4N1yegGg) you?

Is what me? not sure of your question.
I am simply bringing into question the princples that we teach in different arts and how they get played out on the collective world stage.

Not a question of right or wrong but a simple statement of what is, and how we go about bringing real change in the medium of martial arts. Competative or non competative, I am simply brining to attention, the insanity of the collective competative mind, because this is even more insane than the individualised state of the contentious mind.

Now we could say that this should be taught in schools at home, or whatever, it just so happens I teach a martial art, in a very respected dojo, who`s dojo Cho Is an official representative, Daihyo of the Dai nippon Butokukai. tenshinkan Dojo Uk. And I was wondering how we bring about real change through Budo!

Andy B

P.s
Sorry to all of my spelling mistakes.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Is what me?
Are you the person in the clip I linked?

noty sure of your question.
Blame my poor English language skills.

I am simply bringing into question the princples that we teach in different arts and how they get played out on the collective world stage.

Not a question of right or wrong but a simple statement of what is, and how we go about bringing real change in the medium of martial arts. Competative or non competative, I am simply brining to attention, the insanity of the collective competative mind, because this is even more insane than the individualised state of the contentious mind.

Now we could say that this should be taught in schools at home, or whatever, it just so happens I teach a martial art, in a very respected dojo, who`s dojo Cho Is an official representative, Daihyo of the Dai nippon Butokukai. tenshinkan Dojo Uk. And I was wondering how we bring about real change through Budo!

Andy B
Sorry, but I'm not really interested in debate about your socio-political views or about your legitimacy as aikido instructor in the Iwama lineage (or in your alleged military experience). I only wanted to put a face to your posts.

Regards.

[nickregnier1]

Dear Andy,

You are welcome. These topics are bound to bring various challenges and opinions and you are so right about raising the issue about being able to break the cycle: avoiding hurting one another because we do not agree. It is sad to know that in this world of today very few things have changed. If only everyone could understand the art of Peace... then there would be truly peace and respect.
It has been a pleasure sharing your views.

Nick Regnier

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon

[nickregnier1]

To Demetrio Cereijo,

If you wish to see my face doing Keiko in the back garden then feel free to view these links (I understand you practice Iwama Aikido and so do I :-) ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQYCAUuCTo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AAaBWGRApE

Nick Regnier

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon

[TheAikidoka]

Are you the person in the clip I linked

I cannot answer that question as I am at work and they have banned access to you tube.
The only video of me practicing Aiki weapons, that I am aware of on you tube, is of me messing around with ken and Jo in my back garden, this is a poor video of my weapons work, done very early in the morning. My weapons work is vastly different to that. it was a case of some pressure from my family to post something on you tube!
honest its rubbish and not a true representation of what I can do, or indeed do in the dojo.

I have practitioners from Iaido, Judo, Aikido Taijitsu, Kendo, Jikiden Eishen Ryu, BJJ and karate, who practice at the dojo in there respective arts coming to my, Aikido Ken & Jo weapons classes. Thats all the proof I need to show what the worth is, of what I am trying to get across.

I just wanted to get a bigger perspective of thoughts and oppinions from the wider Aikido world.

In Budo

Andy B

[DH]

To all who have commented,
The reason I strongly worded my reponse to dan is that I take offence (intended or not) at being called a nitwit, wehn the person has no clue to my martial and military background. Simple as that really. But Dan is too of course entitled to his opinon and thats ok.
snip....
Anyone who says I am this religion I am that religion and lets fight about who is right, may as well be a child running round the room saying I`m a fire engine or a policeman, than another child over hears it and says no your not, and so they end up fighting over noithing really

Andy B
Hmmm....
Might I suggest you get a cup of coffee and sit down and actually read what I wrote. That post was to Dave Devos -someone I do know. The nit wit was a reference to anoher individual.
It had not one thing on God's green earth to do with you whatsoever.

To be clear
I don't know you
I did not reference you
I did not address you
I did not refer to your post
I did not even read your post prior to writing -thus I could not refer to it.

Therefore
I did not discuss:
You
Your religion
Your background
Your military training (the subject of which I actually said to Greg was above my paygrade-but in your own logic are now saying that I did discuss and it was aimed at you)

Is there a reason you have chosen to take offense where none was intended and where in fact no correspondence or inference was ever made concerning you what so ever?
How is that even rational?

Have you ever heard of the word; mistake?
Look it up.

So there is no confusion; I actually am referring to you now -though I am fairly sure I never will in the future.
Dan

[Demetrio Cereijo]

To Demetrio Cereijo,

If you wish to see my face doing Keiko in the back garden then feel free to view these links (I understand you practice Iwama Aikido and so do I :-) ):
]

Thanks.

BTW, properly speaking, I practised Iwama Aikido.

[nickregnier1]

Oh ok Demetrio,

Do you practice a different Aikido now? (sorry for all folks if we are moving away from the debate)

[nickregnier1]

Dear Dan Harden,

Sorry if I may respond here to your last posting, I can see how easily all of this can escalate. I too got caught in another forum where I thought someone began criticising (or to be honest and exact - thought the person made a direct attack to me when in fact the comment was made to someone else!!!) me. All in all, I know that we all mean well and I appreciate you confirm your posting to reassure your views were not offending Andy in this case.
In the end, we all share our same passion which is Aikido and it is lovely to be able to connect with people like you and Andy and I hope my posting will bring peace to all (I am not being a hippie either).
I can definitely say that I truly enjoyed reading your views too!
All the best,

Nick Regnier

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon

[phitruong]

BTW, properly speaking, I practised Iwama Aikido.

noooooo! tell me that isn't sooooo! i have so much respect for you before! couldn't you just practice some ki-aikido, you know, the gentler-n-kinder stuffs? :D

[TheAikidoka]

Ok Dan, I m done. I sincerely appologise if that was not inteded towards me. It was maybe the way I took it.
I simply put out there my thoughts, there was not any real need for crticism, just your thoughts and oppinions on the conlcusions I have drawn.

If you wish I would be interested in hearing your views, on the five points I made concerning the competativeness vs non-competativeness, which you have not done as far as I can see. only your right and O`sensei would agree with you. Now come on, surely you can see how mad that sounds?

Each point I made runs into the other, and I have tried to convey them in a logical order. From the outset, I wanted thoughts on the mindset that each teaches and the merrits for and against to each approach, and hopefully draw a conclusions from that. And hoping that somewhere along the line we can all move forward toward to a harmonious way of life, free of the contending mind.

In Budo

Andy B

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Oh ok Demetrio,

Do you practice a different Aikido now? (sorry for all folks if we are moving away from the debate)

Currently I practise Judo (when work schedule permits). Regarding Aikido, well, I left because there are prices I'm not going to pay, so let's say "politics".

Regards.

[TheAikidoka]

Dear Andy,

You are welcome. These topics are bound to bring various challenges and opinions and you are so right about raising the issue about being able to break the cycle: avoiding hurting one another because we do not agree. It is sad to know that in this world of today very few things have changed. If only everyone could understand the art of Peace... then there would be truly peace and respect.
It has been a pleasure sharing your views.

Nick Regnier

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon

You are most welcome. If you are ever in the sussex area, send me a PM, and maybe we could get together to discuss and maybe do some training together. I applaud you on your openess.

Thank you,

Andy B

[nickregnier1]

Oh I see. Sorry to hear that the price was the reason to change discipline. But I can see that your heart is still with Aikido (right?) as you are logged in in this forum...

Nick

http://www.aspireaikidolondon.co.uk
Follow us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aspire...79305248800728
and Twitter https://twitter.com/AspireAikidoLon

[nickregnier1]

You are most welcome. If you are ever in the sussex area, send me a PM, and maybe we could get together to discuss and maybe do some training together. I applaud you on your openess.

Thank you,

Andy B

Sure Andy,

Continue doing what your heart tells you! That is how i pursue my Aikido journey. Most definitely, if I am around your area, I will let you know (the same goes for you! if you are in Harrow - North London let me know)
Take care.

Nick

[TheAikidoka]

Sure Andy,

Continue doing what your heart tells you! That is how i pursue my Aikido journey. Most definitely, if I am around your area, I will let you know (the same goes for you! if you are in Harrow - North London let me know)
Take care.

Nick

Thank you, I`m going to check your website out in a while when I get bak from my lunch break.
And I am honoured by your invite.

In Budo/Peace :)

Andy B

[Garth]

"To mr Gregory Gargiso, I dont beleive the competative mind is a model and again I repeat the madness of can be seen by reading a history book. One example, of recent events, of the burning of the quran pages in afganistan this week, because somebody may have burned a few pages from a spiritual text the go out and murder other human beings. That my friend is non other than the compettive religious mind, and it is madness. No different to what happened leading up to the disastrous events of world war 2, and nobody I know would call that sane!"

Andrew,
I believe that is fanaticism.
From Wiki pedia
"Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal"

Curious as to why they put that word uncritical in there? Critics and competition have there place, so as to check the zeal . To check extreme beliefs.
Competition tends to check unrealistic beliefs. Some people are fanatical in their belief that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, because they are without any checks to their zeal. Not bashing, just keeping it real.
Are they mutually exclusive? Dont know , dont care. But they do exist and I would love to be above the fray and or train that way and it maybe a goal of mind/mine.
But there are people who COMPETE for hearts and minds , lame as that has been made to sound.
And then there are fanatic kooks, who wont accept any other definition of how to live.
But there is a difference, both exist and when contemplated helps a person choose exactly where he wants to stand
:cool:

[TheAikidoka]

Dear nick,
I see we are of the same lineage, and that makes a world of sense :)
On march 11th, one year to the day of the Japanses Tsunami, I will be in london, partaking in a demo along with the dojo cho of the dojo I belong too, for the relief of the orphans of the march 11th tsunami.
I will PM you the details, it is set up by the Japanese embassy here in the UK, the Japanese and british respective ambassadors will be there supporting this important event.

Andy B

[TheAikidoka]

"To mr Gregory Gargiso, I dont beleive the competative mind is a model and again I repeat the madness of can be seen by reading a history book. One example, of recent events, of the burning of the quran pages in afganistan this week, because somebody may have burned a few pages from a spiritual text the go out and murder other human beings. That my friend is non other than the compettive religious mind, and it is madness. No different to what happened leading up to the disastrous events of world war 2, and nobody I know would call that sane!"

Andrew,
I believe that is fanaticism.
From Wiki pedia
"Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal"

Curious as to why they put that word uncritical in there? Critics and competition have there place, so as to check the zeal . To check extreme beliefs.
Competition tends to check unrealistic beliefs. Some people are fanatical in their belief that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, because they are without any checks to their zeal. Not bashing, just keeping it real.
Are they mutually exclusive? Dont know , dont care. But they do exist and I would love to be above the fray and or train that way and it maybe a goal of mind/mine.
But there are people who COMPETE for hearts and minds , lame as that has been made to sound.
And then there are fanatic kooks, who wont accept any other definition of how to live.
But there is a difference, both exist and when contemplated helps a person choose exactly where he wants to stand
:cool:

Agreed, I simply put the differences as I see them. In my original Post, I did not say either one was better or worse, Indeed I have said elsewhere in this thread that competition does indeed have its place. Again I say, I am bringing to question how we move forward, so the competative mind no matter what form it takes, is kept in check and must be brought into awareness for what it is, in all forms it takes so it no longer destroys us/humanity from the inside, to shine the light of consiousness of the insanity of the contentious/competative mind when left unchecked. more competition will not bring about this change, in my Honest Humble Opinion, I dont have the answer, but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes.

Andy B

[Garth]

Concur,
except for "but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes."

This current trend for no winners and losers is just a little disturbing and a crackpot scheme dreamt up by most likely communists.(not saying you, just where it most likely came from)
Am I to assume , that a person who does nothing with his God given talents is on the same level as the person who worked their whole life striving to be better with those talents?
This is feel good mentality, and is ruining everything from Aikido, to our school system, to our country and others.
When I have competed (maybe just in my mind or within or with oneself) at anything and done well, it does not spur me to want more. There is peace at that moment even if brief. A stop and smell the roses moment.
Had I not done so, I would not know the difference between cutting someone's head off for their religious beliefs and beating someone at a game or to the punch.

[TheAikidoka]

Concur,
except for "but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes."

This current trend for no winners and losers is just a little disturbing and a crackpot scheme dreamt up by most likely communists.(not saying you, just where it most likely came from)
Am I to assume , that a person who does nothing with his God given talents is on the same level as the person who worked their whole life striving to be better with those talents?
This is feel good mentality, and is ruining everything from Aikido, to our school system, to our country and others.
When I have competed (maybe just in my mind or within or with oneself) at anything and done well, it does not spur me to want more. There is peace at that moment even if brief. A stop and smell the roses moment.
Had I not done so, I would not know the difference between cutting someone's head off for their religious beliefs and beating someone at a game or to the punch.

Hi Greg, exactly, but when I said more competition begets more competition, makes sense, it is indeed very sientific. It`s the positive feedback theory, only in this case I am leaning on the fence of it being in the negative, because we can all surely see the negativity that is also endemic in society, and for what it is worth, I believe this to be competition running rife and having a good old time with the collective human psyche. I think we have at least reached a kind of understanding.

Andy B

[Marc Abrams]

Agreed, I simply put the differences as I see them. In my original Post, I did not say either one was better or worse, Indeed I have said elsewhere in this thread that competition does indeed have its place. Again I say, I am bringing to question how we move forward, so the competative mind no matter what form it takes, is kept in check and must be brought into awareness for what it is, in all forms it takes so it no longer destroys us/humanity from the inside, to shine the light of consiousness of the insanity of the contentious/competative mind when left unchecked. more competition will not bring about this change, in my Honest Humble Opinion, I dont have the answer, but more competion begets more compettion, in whatever form it takes.

Andy B

Andy:

I would suggest that you look at the growing field of evolutionary psychology. Simply start off with exploring the concept of evolution. Flora, animals, etc. all engage is a competitive process. The planet exists in a dynamic equilibrium centered around competition. Eliminating the "competitive mindset" from our consciousness goes against the very nature of how our planet exists. Maybe you might find a more fruitful endeavor in exploring what is it about humans that have taken this natural process and led us (as some may believe) to the brink of our own demise.

Your opinion sounds good in theory, but works against the very order of nature that we exist within. We can no more take the tendency toward competition in us away any more than we can take it away from anything else for that matter. (you name the flora or animal). Instead of trying to create a new "operating system" for us, or anything else for that matter, why don't you look harder and deeper and find some way for us to take a natural process and allow it to exist in dynamic balance with the rest of nature.

Marc Abrams

[TheAikidoka]

Andy:

I would suggest that you look at the growing field of evolutionary psychology. Simply start off with exploring the concept of evolution. Flora, animals, etc. all engage is a competitive process. The planet exists in a dynamic equilibrium centered around competition. Eliminating the "competitive mindset" from our consciousness goes against the very nature of how our planet exists. Maybe you might find a more fruitful endeavor in exploring what is it about humans that have taken this natural process and led us (as some may believe) to the brink of our own demise.

Your opinion sounds good in theory, but works against the very order of nature that we exist within. We can no more take the tendency toward competition in us away any more than we can take it away from anything else for that matter. (you name the flora or animal). Instead of trying to create a new "operating system" for us, or anything else for that matter, why don't you look harder and deeper and find some way for us to take a natural process and allow it to exist in dynamic balance with the rest of nature.

Marc Abrams

Sorry marc I completely disagree, your talking about natural selection, not the contentious contending self seeking mind in all that is me/ I and mine. Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation. Competition Rules, and anyone that says different is either all airy fairy or living in a dream world. and so you attack them for it, in some form or another.

And in all fairness new theories abound about the mind, is just another thought form and does not address the heart of the matter.

Andy

[chillzATL]

Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation.

This, people, is what good ole fashioned trolling looks like. Though he did a better job than most as making it sound eloquent.

[Marc Abrams]

Sorry marc I completely disagree, your talking about natural selection, not the contentious contending self seeking mind in all that is me/ I and mine. Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation. Competition Rules, and anyone that says different is either all airy fairy or living in a dream world. and so you attack them for it, in some form or another.

And in all fairness new theories abound about the mind, is just another thought form and does not address the heart of the matter.

Andy

Andrew:

Natural selection is a process of competition over resources. The "contentious, contending, self-seeking mind...." is simply one cognitive manifestation of natural selection being expressed through our cognition. It has nothing to do with my mindset, the US mindset, or any other mind set for that matter. You appear to be taking it out of context and looking at "competition" in a vacuum and placing your own idiosyncratic perspective upon it. The larger reality is that human cognition is a unique function of the human condition that exists within the world at large. You can no more separate cognition from this gestalt than you can separate the mind from the body.

I am not quite sure what "new theories" you are referring to about the mind. Your comment about "just another though form and does not address the heart of the matter" is logically inconsistent with your premise regarding a "competitive mindset." Nice sounding ideas that don't exist within the functional reality of how life operates on this planet does not really lead to much in terms of advancing our thoughts on some genuine world problems that you might be alluding to.

A more fruitful discussion may be found in exploring how humans manifest "natural selection" in "mindsets", and how those "mindsets" lead to various outcomes.

Marc Abrams

[hughrbeyer]

"Human nature, Mr. Allnutt, is what we are placed on Earth to rise above." -Rose Sayer, The African Queen.

The problem I have with your argument, Marc, is that there are all sorts of aspects of human nature which really shouldn't be encouraged. Is the competitive drive one of those? Why not?

My problem with your argument, Andrew, is that you assume competition is all kinds of things ("the contentious self-seeking mind" that it doesn't have to be. In fact, the "self-seeking mind" does a whole lot better when it cuts itself off from any external reality check--then it can focus wholly on its own wonderfulness. The good aspect of engaging in competition, or any kind of outward-facing activity, is that it forces the self-seeking mind to recognize and adjust to something outside itself.

"To know thyself is the beginning of wisdom"--but where do we find a mirror to see ourselves in? Only in something outside ourselves that will show us how we look, warts and all.

(P.S. to Andrew--Have you not read Dan H's other posts? Your characterization of his attitude ("I'm right and O-Sensei would agree with me") is a vast simplification of his point of view--but it's correct in essentials. But understand, he's convinced a bunch of very high-level aikidoka that he does have important skills that O-Sensei had and talked about. I'd be among them if I were high-level enough. PM me if you want a quick history of the discussions, not because there's any secret, but to keep from hijacking yet another thread.)

[grondahl]

Since i heard (read) evolutionary psychology. A collection of lectures from a course in Human Behavioral Biology on Stanford. Good stuff, very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnIGh9g6fA&list=SP848F2368C90DDC3D

[chillzATL]

Andy:

I would suggest that you look at the growing field of evolutionary psychology. Simply start off with exploring the concept of evolution. Flora, animals, etc. all engage is a competitive process. The planet exists in a dynamic equilibrium centered around competition. Eliminating the "competitive mindset" from our consciousness goes against the very nature of how our planet exists. Maybe you might find a more fruitful endeavor in exploring what is it about humans that have taken this natural process and led us (as some may believe) to the brink of our own demise.

Your opinion sounds good in theory, but works against the very order of nature that we exist within. We can no more take the tendency toward competition in us away any more than we can take it away from anything else for that matter. (you name the flora or animal). Instead of trying to create a new "operating system" for us, or anything else for that matter, why don't you look harder and deeper and find some way for us to take a natural process and allow it to exist in dynamic balance with the rest of nature.

Marc Abrams

Your post immediately brought to mind something that happened just yesterday and fits with what you said above, at least in the context of the discussion.

A friend brought his 11mo black lab mix to play with our 3mo shiba inu pup this past weekend. A non-dog person or someone who isn't comfortable letting dogs be dogs would have thought they were trying to kill each other. The larger dog constantly running my shiba pup down, pinning her to the ground with his paws and chin, barreling over her at full speed and my shiba jumping full force into the dogs head, bitting ears and lips, anything she could get hold of. It looked and sounded like a brutal dog fight, but in reality it was nothing more than play and competition. Not competition to establish a winner or a loser, but competition for growth and to establish limits, what they can and can't do. It was perfectly friendly and more importantly, perfectly healthy for both dogs. They would take breaks, sit togehter, explore together and them, bam, dog chaos again, but they parted on perfectly friendly terms with both us and the dogs better for it. That's healthy dog behavior, dogs being dogs. The key word there being healthy. Dogs that, usually from human input in some way, are either violently aggressive or hyper-timid in those situations are not considered healthy minded dogs. It is the process of engaging in that competition that creates healthy minded dogs and it's usually us that screws it up for them in the same way that we screw it up for ourselves, ego, insecurity, jealousy, fear, etc...

[Garth]

"that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation"

Andy,
STRONGLY DISAGREE.
This nation and its collective mindset, I do not remember, did we force Britain after WWII or Iraq after the current war to fly our flag. Or assert or cast them off that they (the British and Iraqis) somehow are lesser ...airy fairies because they could not or would not compete against aggression, dominance, dictatorship, etc.
What was that guy's name ? Neville Chamberlain, now there was an airy fairy with his head in the sand and he probably cost a lot of people their lives by delaying the inevitable.
But history lesson and shots across this nation's bow aside. Letting go of ego is one thing, living with your head in the sand completely different.
In other words, you can train with out any competition or thoughts there of your whole life. Finding out that that you have not been doing it right (again personal or with in oneself/ ) is quite a shock and is either appeasement , rationalization and gets you most likely hurt or dead.:freaky:

[Marc Abrams]

The problem I have with your argument, Marc, is that there are all sorts of aspects of human nature which really shouldn't be encouraged. Is the competitive drive one of those? Why not?



Such as?

Your statement is overly global. How do certain aspects of "human nature" manifest themselves? And, what are the conditions in which they exist are important to be able to delineate? Without delineation, we are talking so globally,that we can provide no useful responses in order to shape thoughts and behaviors so that they are more functionally effective in the environments in which they are being expressed.

Regards,

marc abrams

[Garth]

. The key word there being healthy. Dogs that, usually from human input in some way, are either violently aggressive or hyper-timid in those situations are not considered healthy minded dogs. It is the process of engaging in that competition that creates healthy minded dogs and it's usually us that screws it up for them in the same way that we screw it up for ourselves, ego, insecurity, jealousy, fear, etc...

Good good, one caveat, since we are on dogs , how do we explain wolves in Yellowstone that kill elk after elk and do not eat them? See yellowstone wolves if disbelieving.
Are they hyperaggressive? Or is it biological in nature.
Probably a stretch here tho, since we are human and despite what some people believe have bigger brains
So, dogs in a pack suffer all those things you say and not because of us, but we are supposed to be a higher consciousness, and therefore can become enlightened as I think Andy is trying to point out.
Then this all becomes a walk before run arguement. And really how are we supposed to know running if never having walked. Never know enlightment , without something to compare it against or compete against.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Is what me? not sure of your question.
I am simply bringing into question the princples that we teach in different arts and how they get played out on the collective world stage.

Not a question of right or wrong but a simple statement of what is, and how we go about bringing real change in the medium of martial arts. Competative or non competative, I am simply brining to attention, the insanity of the collective competative mind, because this is even more insane than the individualised state of the contentious mind.

Now we could say that this should be taught in schools at home, or whatever, it just so happens I teach a martial art, in a very respected dojo, who`s dojo Cho Is an official representative, Daihyo of the Dai nippon Butokukai. tenshinkan Dojo Uk. And I was wondering how we bring about real change through Budo!

Andy B

P.s
Sorry to all of my spelling mistakes.

I'd love to have an intelligent and constructive conversation of the subject, but really need to frame what you want to discuss.

Your first sentence in the post states "I am simply bringing into question the princples that we teach in different arts and how they get played out on the collective world stage."

So based on this it sounds like you are wanting to discuss how different arts can contribute to creating a productive society or something. I am game to discuss that...but not really sure what you mean by "how they get played out on the collective world stage". What does that mean? Martial Arts can build character and "men" (non-gender). It can also build communities of people that work and bond together. It can also produce out reach to others. Again, not sure what it means in getting played out of the collective world stage. I think that concept might be a little to macroscopic, vaque, and lack the preciseness necessary to have a constructive conversation.

Your next paragraph or statement says "simple statement of what is, and how we go about bringing real change in the medium of martial arts." By this I now think ou want to discuss how we bring change to martial arts as a whole. Again, what are the problems as you see it that martial arts have that need to be changed. Then maybe we could also discuss that topic as well.

In the same para/statement you say "I am simply brining to attention, the insanity of the collective competative mind, because this is even more insane than the individualised state of the contentious mind."

Sorry, but I don't understand. what is the insanity? wHat is a collective competitive mind? What makes it "more insane" than the individual state of the contentious mind? AND what is the individual state of the contentious mind. I am really not sure what you mean by that.

Last paragraph proposes that we discuss how we bring about "real change in budo". How does this differ from you bring change in martial arts as previously proposed? Is budo in your opinion the same as martilal arts?

If you want to discuss bringing real change in budo, again, what are the problems as you see them in budo and what changes do you propose are made?

Again, I'd love to participate in the conversation, but not sure what is really being discussed.

[hughrbeyer]

Marc -- Having just finished "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Stephen Pinker, highly recommended, I am over-supplied with examples... but let's just choose one close to the topic.

The honor/shame retributive mindset is apparently built in--it's just about universal in traditional societies and still exists in modern societies. But overcoming this mindset--which was one important result of the Enlightenment--is critical to reducing violence and creating the kind of stable societies we have these days. (And if you don't think we do, read the book.)

That answers your question,but doesn't really address your argument. If you're going to promote competition on the grounds that people are competitive, you need to show that either (1) it's harmless so why not; or (2) it's not harmless but it's worth it because the world is a dangerous place or (3) it's an active good for some reason. You can't just say it's human nature, so that settles it.

[chillzATL]

. The key word there being healthy. Dogs that, usually from human input in some way, are either violently aggressive or hyper-timid in those situations are not considered healthy minded dogs. It is the process of engaging in that competition that creates healthy minded dogs and it's usually us that screws it up for them in the same way that we screw it up for ourselves, ego, insecurity, jealousy, fear, etc...

Good good, one caveat, since we are on dogs , how do we explain wolves in Yellowstone that kill elk after elk and do not eat them? See yellowstone wolves if disbelieving.
Are they hyperaggressive? Or is it biological in nature.
Probably a stretch here tho, since we are human and despite what some people believe have bigger brains
So, dogs in a pack suffer all those things you say and not because of us, but we are supposed to be a higher consciousness, and therefore can become enlightened as I think Andy is trying to point out.
Then this all becomes a walk before run arguement. And really how are we supposed to know running if never having walked. Never know enlightment , without something to compare it against or compete against.

Well, they are territorial and elk are both outside their species and outside their pack. That's just a guess though.

I also got the point he was trying to make about enlightenment and I'm just not sure I agree with it. If one is seeking enlightenment via budo, shouldn't you have to actually experience budo to get it? If part of enlightenment is letting go of ego, isn't it easier to have your ego put to the test a few times to see how it responds than to avoid having it tested only to see it fail you?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Sorry marc I completely disagree, your talking about natural selection, not the contentious contending self seeking mind in all that is me/ I and mine. Again I fear (but not certain), that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation. Competition Rules, and anyone that says different is either all airy fairy or living in a dream world. and so you attack them for it, in some form or another.

And in all fairness new theories abound about the mind, is just another thought form and does not address the heart of the matter.

Andy

Well I personally take offense to the categorization of the collective mindset of your Nation, meaning the United States as a U.S. citizen. Thanks for the insensitive and unqualified judgement and insult!

That aside, I believe that Westbrook and Ratti addressed four possible outcomes to conflict in "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere". Win/Lose, Win/Win, Lose/Win, and Lose/Lose.

I think most of us agree that in practice Win/Win is optimal and what we strive for in all our relationships. Maybe this is where you are going with your discussion, albeit IMO in a very confusing manner.

Since you brought up the U.S and really all Democratic, Free Enterprise economies to include the UK....lets discuss competition in those terms.

In Free Enterprise, competition must exist in order to have a self determining economy at the most simplistic level of the concept. We establish rules to promote fairness, albeit we all know that there are problems there too. Setting those aside, you can have a competitive model of enterprise that is, at least in theory, competitive as defined by businesses competing for your business. The Best product, price, etc will win. Within the exchange of goods and services, money and goods change hands and creates a "Win/Win" situation.

I was in three third world countries last week in Africa and watch with amazement at people competing for business on a very real and foundational level on the street corners. Many would not eat if they did not sell something that day. While they were agressive at hawking to me, they did not assault me, hurt each other, and I noticed that while competing, as you drove down the road, that many of the businesses that sold competing goods where grouped together in the same general area. Guys selling Colas tended to be in the same area, same with guys that did furniture.

Why is this? it is because there is a benefit work together, while at the same time competing for business.

To get back on the Martial track. Martial Strategies/Training or Budo must address all aspects that Westbrook and Ratti define. In Budo we must learn/teach not only to win/win...but to win/lose, lose/win, and lose/lose.

the concept of "Dying Well" in battle is as an important lesson to learn as any. also the concept of Winning. Studying history such as how MacArthur worked to restore respect and dignity to Japan after we defeated the Japanese is just as important as any.

I agree we need to strive towards win/win...it is what I do everyday. However, you must also realize that in reality, not every one will get a Trophy in the real world....and we must prepare ourselves and our Children to deal with that fact.

IMO, THIS is what budo is designed to teach. The full spectrum of possibilities, not some one dimensional utopic view of what we'd really like to see in the world.

[Dave de Vos]

I don't believe competition in itself is bad. Competition improves quality.

Think about companies. Without competition between companies, product quality would be lower and prices would be higher.

Think about science. Without competition between scientitsts, less progress would be made in how to cure diseases or how to build earthquake resistant buildings, to name just two examples.

I've been a go player for almost 24 years now (a japanese board game, a bit like chess). Without competition, improving ones skill would be much slower (and hard to measure).

But extreme competition could lead to bad things. Competition means taking risks, but taking too much risk could lead to serious injuries, death, bankruptcy, stock market failure, crisis, war.

[TheAikidoka]

Ok deep breath, here goes nothing,
What I am alluding to and some people have almost smacked the nail on the head and almost drived it home is this. If the human race is to servive another centuary we have to see the collective madness of the competative mind seeking sense of self in ideologise and out dated dogma as mind made madness.

He`s wrong im right so I feel better and stronger for doing so. It is competition on a global human scale. I believe we are the custodians of our own and collective destiny, this generation above all others because we are HERE NOW in this moment, in our time of life, the threat of total human destruction through the competative self seeking sense of self in whatever we do will ultimate lead the world into destruction. Mother nature will have to finally have bring about her hand and bring the world into harmony to save the earth from us. if this leads to our destruction so be it, life in some form or another will continue. I believe (yes this is also just a thought) this is what O`sensei ment when he eliminated competition indeed forbid it.

If only we could realise the truth, that each one of us IS THE TRUTH, IS LIFE, LIVING LIFE NOW. Not in the competing mind of past events and what that country did to me/us and the other. Or indeed the mass fear of future competition/war if you like, being portrayed on our tv screens every night.

It is indeed the same process as the individual self competing only on a lrger collective scale, and it is completely mad. To live in this moment, and to become awere of awareness itself, or awareness becoming concious of itself, and then seeing the madness of the collective competing mind, is having one ffot in freedom. Ask yourselves this question. What problems do you have in your life right at this moment, not life situations, actuall real problems, the only problems that truly are are mind made, and it is totally insane.

So next time you step onto the mat as a teacher or a student, or indeed both, ask yourselves what it is truly you are learning to do, and what are teaching the next generation.

In Budo

Andy B

[Kevin Leavitt]

Marc -- Having just finished "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Stephen Pinker, highly recommended, I am over-supplied with examples... but let's just choose one close to the topic.

The honor/shame retributive mindset is apparently built in--it's just about universal in traditional societies and still exists in modern societies. But overcoming this mindset--which was one important result of the Enlightenment--is critical to reducing violence and creating the kind of stable societies we have these days. (And if you don't think we do, read the book.)

That answers your question,but doesn't really address your argument. If you're going to promote competition on the grounds that people are competitive, you need to show that either (1) it's harmless so why not; or (2) it's not harmless but it's worth it because the world is a dangerous place or (3) it's an active good for some reason. You can't just say it's human nature, so that settles it.

Hugh, thanks for the reference to the book. I will definitely check it out.

I agree that transcendence needs to occur in order to reduce violence and create a stable society.

I personally believe budo can serve as a "bridge" solution that could lead to transcendence, but budo in and of itself is not a transcendental process.

I think a best, budo teaches us skills to deal with the very real problems and conflicts we can incur as we attempt to transcend violence.

The Koan "Do no Harm, Stop Harm" comes to mind.

Again, I go back to my statement from the other day. What is meant by Competition? I think there is a difference in say competition as a Team Sport such as Football, and competition over scarce resources.

Again, using the example of using the competitive model of sports in an inner city to bring together disenfranchised youth to cooperate and interact in a positive manner yields positive results, and can certainly help guide them further towards the path of transcending greed, violence etc.

However, competition between two rival gangs trying to gain influence over a turf to sell drugs would be heading in the wrong direction.

There is a spectrum of transcendence. You simply cannot remove a gang member from the street and place him in a Utopic Ideal environment like a Win/Win striving, non-competitive Aikido Dojo and capture his heart and mind....you have to bring him through the spectrum.

Competition in a constructive manner such as boxing, which has had great success in getting kids off the street and guiding there energy to fight in a postive way can work.

Again, you have to address the spectrum of violence with the right solution set.

[Marc Abrams]

Marc -- Having just finished "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Stephen Pinker, highly recommended, I am over-supplied with examples... but let's just choose one close to the topic.

The honor/shame retributive mindset is apparently built in--it's just about universal in traditional societies and still exists in modern societies. But overcoming this mindset--which was one important result of the Enlightenment--is critical to reducing violence and creating the kind of stable societies we have these days. (And if you don't think we do, read the book.)

That answers your question,but doesn't really address your argument. If you're going to promote competition on the grounds that people are competitive, you need to show that either (1) it's harmless so why not; or (2) it's not harmless but it's worth it because the world is a dangerous place or (3) it's an active good for some reason. You can't just say it's human nature, so that settles it.

Hugh:

1) Honor/Shame mindset: Human institutions reflect humans, complete with all of our imperfections. The mindset that you are speaking about reflects a feedback mechanism for people within a society to function effectively within the parameters of that society. Having honor and having shame can be functionally effective thought/feeling experiences that help a person to modulate behavior within a society (family unit, classroom, etc...). Honor and shame are factors that help to create a sense of integrity in an individual within a particular societal unit. I know my parents used them to help raise me to be a caring, concerned citizen. I would argue that when the cognitive and behavioral manifestations of honor and/or shame are expressed in a manner that is destructive to both members and a society, then the focus on the identifiable factors/conditions that lead to a destructive process could yield valuable information to help stop destructive manifestations of application of the honor/shame paradigm (such as "honor killing"- talk about an oxymoron!).

2) Life is a fatal disease and inherently dangerous (regardless of the life form). Competition, as an expression of our very nature can be both constructive and destructive, depending upon how "competition" is manifest. Actually, it is quite easy to say that competition is a fundamental part of our nature. If we use competition as a form of self-motivation, it can be constructive to us or even destructive to us. If I use this form of self-motivation to see how deadly I can be to other people, then the manifestation of competitive, self-motivation is destructive to me and to others who deal with me. If I use this form of self-motivation to see how helpful I can be to people in need, then the manifestation of competitive, self-motivation is not destructive to me and those around me. We then have to look at the critical differences. What were the conditions and circumstances with which competitive self-motivation became expressed in two very different forms. If I have an understanding of those factors, I would be better able to create societal paradigms that promoted the positive expression, while reciprocally inhibiting the destructive expression.

In summary, what I am driving at is that the initial poster was the one who was being way to generalized and intellectually detached from a larger reality. When we really get into it, we are talking about very, very complex factors that result in human thoughts, feelings and behaviors. I was simply trying to push the poster into looking at some more reality-based, complex factors that can lead to a very in-depth discussion about topics that are too easily generalized (and thereby neutered). Sorry if I seemed to vague in my approach.

Marc Abrams

[Kevin Leavitt]

Andrew Bedford wrote:

Ask yourselves this question. What problems do you have in your life right at this moment, not life situations, actuall real problems, the only problems that truly are are mind made, and it is totally insane.

What REAL problems do I have in my life or world right now?

It depends on what you want to focus on and what level. At the high level you seem to be discussing...in the big picture, with some of the horrors and things I have witnessed and dealt with over the years...NONE. I have no problems.

What I DO have is the ability to help people that are less fortunate than I am. To educate them, protect them, and to give them the means and hope to stand up, support themselves and to STOP those than mean to cause them real and authentic harm.

For me, it is about leveling the playing field for the less fortunate and creating an environment of accountability and fairness....reducing corruption...again accountability. It is about liberating the oppressed.

As much as we may want to transcend injustice. Lets call it that. Who cares really about competition the real issue is injustice. We need to hold those accountable that wish to impose there will on others.

Can't do that...then this whole conversation is simply a pipe dream of western people with internet service and Starbucks making themselves feel good by talking about a Utopic society that we will get by twirling around in a skirt in the dojo. It ain't gonna happen that way. Sorry.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Can't do that...then this whole conversation is simply a pipe dream of western people with internet service and Starbucks making themselves feel good by talking about a Utopic society that we will get by twirling around in a skirt in the dojo. It ain't gonna happen that way. Sorry.
+1

[TheAikidoka]

Andrew Bedford wrote:

What REAL problems do I have in my life or world right now?

It depends on what you want to focus on and what level. At the high level you seem to be discussing...in the big picture, with some of the horrors and things I have witnessed and dealt with over the years...NONE. I have no problems.

What I DO have is the ability to help people that are less fortunate than I am. To educate them, protect them, and to give them the means and hope to stand up, support themselves and to STOP those than mean to cause them real and authentic harm.

For me, it is about leveling the playing field for the less fortunate and creating an environment of accountability and fairness....reducing corruption...again accountability. It is about liberating the oppressed.

As much as we may want to transcend injustice. Lets call it that. Who cares really about competition the real issue is injustice. We need to hold those accountable that wish to impose there will on others.

Can't do that...then this whole conversation is simply a pipe dream of western people with internet service and Starbucks making themselves feel good by talking about a Utopic society that we will get by twirling around in a skirt in the dojo. It ain't gonna happen that way. Sorry.

Agreed totally, but you have to make a stand somewhere, and I have chosen to do this through the medium of martial arts. of which I have been a part of since I was about 5 years old. Indeed it is about the only thing that makes sense to me in this world. And If only one person hear`s what I have to say albeit here in this setting or when I teach the childrens class or weapons class at the dojo, or indeed my own children, then it would have been worth it all the while.

Oh by the way I dont go to starbucks, never have ;-)

As Always In Budo

Andy B

[Kevin Leavitt]

Agreed totally, but you have to make a stand somewhere, and I have chosen to do this through the medium of martial arts. of which I have been a part of since I was about 5 years old. Indeed it is about the only thing that makes sense to me in this world. And If only one person hear`s what I have to say albeit here in this setting or when I teach the childrens class or weapons class at the dojo, or indeed my own children, then it would have been worth it all the while.

Oh by the way I dont go to starbucks, never have ;-)

As Always In Budo

Andy B

Thanks for the reply Andrew.

So do you address the issues of Win/Win, Win/Lose, Lose/Win, and Lose/Lose? I am interested in your perspective on these areas. Especially with sword and weapons work. In kata someone will be the loser and someone will be the winner right? How do you teach the concept of Win/WIn in weapons work?

I'd see, at the base level, that even in kata there is an element of competition being communicated as typically there will be a conflict, and it must be resolved and ended some how.

[TheAikidoka]

"that your mindset, is in accord with the collective mindset of your nation"

Andy,
STRONGLY DISAGREE.
This nation and its collective mindset, I do not remember, did we force Britain after WWII or Iraq after the current war to fly our flag. Or assert or cast them off that they (the British and Iraqis) somehow are lesser ...airy fairies because they could not or would not compete against aggression, dominance, dictatorship, etc.
What was that guy's name ? Neville Chamberlain, now there was an airy fairy with his head in the sand and he probably cost a lot of people their lives by delaying the inevitable.
But history lesson and shots across this nation's bow aside. Letting go of ego is one thing, living with your head in the sand completely different.
In other words, you can train with out any competition or thoughts there of your whole life. Finding out that that you have not been doing it right (again personal or with in oneself/ ) is quite a shock and is either appeasement , rationalization and gets you most likely hurt or dead.:freaky:

Exactly my point gregory, this is self seeking in the past, creating problems from the past. In reality none of those things have any existance in the present!
Only people dragging up the past re-living it then reacting to it as if it was real and happening now when it was gone gone gone along time ago. forever gone never to return except in the madness of the human mind. It is completely and utter madness cant you see that? what I am alluding to here is buddah`s teaching. All the true teachings are there as pointers, you just have to see through all the rest of the mad stuff people have added, added and find out for yourself ultimately.

lol that actually made me laugh typing that. Because I know people are going to find it difficult to give up competition for the greater good, because, well at least in the west, we have built an entire so-called civilization on it. but when you take a step back and look at our society, you could hardly call it civilized the way we treat each other and indeed the planet. Always the search more of this more of that and it has it routes in the competative contentious mind of me, or the collective mind of us.

Andy B

[TheAikidoka]

Thanks for the reply Andrew.

So do you address the issues of Win/Win, Win/Lose, Lose/Win, and Lose/Lose? I am interested in your perspective on these areas. Especially with sword and weapons work. In kata someone will be the loser and someone will be the winner right? How do you teach the concept of Win/WIn in weapons work?

I'd see, at the base level, that even in kata there is an element of competition being communicated as typically there will be a conflict, and it must be resolved and ended some how.

Now we are getting there, thank you Kevin. The thread of what i am teaching at the moment in dojo closely relates to what I am discuassing here.

For example in the childrens class, which incidently is straight after there Judo class, I teach say Ikkyo, and explain that you did not want to arrive at this situation in the first place so the situations has to be controlled, not the attacker, in such a way that the attacker feels minimum of disconfort for the strength of attack. i.e. if he attacks with 20% we defend with the same power guiding him off the line of attack, through body movement not force, and showing him the error of his ways thatdue to the nature of the technique we controll the situation not the person. (typing very fast going home form work in ten minute ;-)
this is why I believe Saito sensei used the term Taijitsu, body technique to control the situation, and then its done. I do not teach to go in and finish tham off, because once you have controll of the situation, finishing them off so to speak again is competative.

Sword is the same no different, Uketachi (attacker) attacks ok in a very pre-determined way I accept that, but the underlying princple of controlling the opponents sword not him, through body movement is the same as in Taijitsu. I teach to stop before you kill with the sword when you have controlled the opponents sword. This does not meen I am not prepared for or not capable of cutting the opponent, its just at the moment of impending doom on Uketachi`s part, I can choose peace :)

I teach to have complete control of the situation, but not to have a feeling of controlling the opponent, in this way I believe that the attacker at this point loses the will to fight, because tori does not have a mindset of fighting just to control the situation so nobody gets hurt, i.e. nobody loses. So this is as you put it a win/win situation, and do you know what, the kids understand it. How brilliant it is a childs mind, truly open, and not bogged down yet with the mind of the competing self.

In Budo

Andy B

[Garth]

I dont know.
Obviously you are on a higher plain or plane of thinking.
A lot of the principles of this country tend to mimic Buddha's teaching , which as I see it ,
is to be free or freeing. So I dont think the insanity references are necessary whatsoever.
Having allegiance,loyalty, fealty to ideals does not get in the way of what you seek and could complement it. All depends on the indvidual. What you purport is akin to living like a monk in a cave.
The monks in Tibet are all but powerless to stop the Red Chinese and their quest for enlightenment has been seriously interupted I would venture to say....
Agree to disagree about this country of mine, I see some of the insanity, and a lot of it is operating without a clear set of principles, but I can not do anything about it from the cave:blush:

[TheAikidoka]

I dont know.
Obviously you are on a higher plain or plane of thinking.
A lot of the principles of this country tend to mimic Buddha's teaching , which as I see it ,
is to be free or freeing. So I dont think the insanity references are necessary whatsoever.
Having allegiance,loyalty, fealty to ideals does not get in the way of what you seek and could complement it. All depends on the indvidual. What you purport is akin to living like a monk in a cave.
The monks in Tibet are all but powerless to stop the Red Chinese and their quest for enlightenment has been seriously interupted I would venture to say....
Agree to disagree about this country of mine, I see some of the insanity, and a lot of it is operating without a clear set of principles, but I can not do anything about it from the cave:blush:

To all, I am no attacking the us here just the mind set.
Qutoe"A lot of the principles of this country tend to mimic Buddha's teaching , which as I see it ," end quote.

Do you not belong to a race of people that almost completely wiped out the indigenous population of that country? I would hardly call that Buddha teaching`s. However again that may seem a little unfair as this too happened a long time ago, but the relevance here is obvious.
please read a history book that was not written in the states on the history of the united states and you may understand what it is I am talking about. My country too is to blame for a lot of atrocious acts towards people from other parts of the world. But it is too late, to apportion blame here, because everybody that were to blame are dead.
So we cannot be held responsible for past actions of our fore fathers, yet it seems, that is still the case. When will the world wake up and realize its a new day. And we are NOT responsible for what happened centuries ago, We are still living in the past and seeking ourselves through future, and the competitiveness to "get there" is way out of control and is again mad.
We need to move forward in the present, not the past, we are still reliving acting out past actions still today in war, or the competing collective self. I.e. i`m American, I`m a Muslim, I`m English, I`m a christian.
The individual self, I`m a banker, I`m a policeman, I`m a President of a country.
You may as well be a child running round the floor shouting I`m a fire engine.

What happened to just being human, and part of a remarkable form of life. We just are, here and now, alive, and that is the miracle of life, we are life.

Andy B

[Garth]

Nice Andy,
great taking it out of context.
No I am not. my family is only in the country for a hundred years or so. What of it?
I am sure the history books written over in BBC land are much much better.
Are you saying that white people as race collectively said let's wipe out the Indians?
Or a conquered people refusing to acknowledge that they were indeed conquered , pushed themselves to the brink of extinction. Treaties were made , treaties were broken by both sides and politics , competition , pride and prejudice, extremism and narrow mindedness played a part, of that much I am sure. Your history books are especially not worth a damn as they have been skewed with the rose colored glasses of whatever is pop culture du jour over there in Europe.
It is exactly that kind of slander and BS that puts your views in competition with my own.
May the best man ..win.
Oh and by the way, I much rather be American than Buddha, and good on you for sucking me into a conversation without a forseeable end with your broadsides against America.
While we are supposed to just be happy being human, who is going to put out the fires, arrest the bad guys, teach whatever to whomever? Curious thing you say.

[Garth]

I guess you have not been to an Indian Casino over here lately , either. Excuse me , Native American casino.:D

[Garth]

In fact
The Spanish conquistadors were much more into wiping out collectively .
Once this country was established during the Indian wars, atrocities still occurred, war sucks, but once we had fought last battle and won , did we wipe out all of them? Had we been the Mongols imcsure it would have gone another way . We had these ideals and documents that to this day get in the way of that sloppy collectivism u speak of
I would love to be above the fray of this thread , like so many here have wisely chosen to do by now.
Are u still asking whether competition is necessary and how to implement it( I think u knw where I stand on the issue)
Or has this become bash nations and races hour?:grr:

[TheAikidoka]

Not so. You believe it is "your country" as you said so in your previous post. Now can you see how the egoic/competative mind set belies, even the basic principle upon which your country was founded, land of the free.
This is not I repeat not having ago at you or your country, but bringing to light that you have identified yourself as being an American, not a human being, Your country, not a place you just happen to in habit, why do think it is, that people believe that this is or that is theirs. It is the egoic sense of self wanting more and more and will compete with anything no matter what it is to get it.
I happen to quite like America I have sen parts of it and it is truly an amazing country. And I have some wonderful American friends. I am talking about the collective insanity of the planet due to competitiveness, and in my view it just so happens with the worlds largest economy that America does indeed have a massive egoic sense of competitiveness that is out of control. However this is not exclusive only to America, but the entire planet.
when I talk about past deeds, and how people identify a sense of self from that, it is like a kind of collective guilt. So the human mind tries and makes up for what it has done, and then what happens it goes round in circles repeating the same mindset just in a different time and setting, and the competative mind sabotages true efforts for that peace....... From both sides.
I repeat, this is a call to us as martial artists, who really want to make a difference in this world please, think about what we are truly teaching the next generation.

Competative arts teach win - non competative art teaches, to not lose, so know one loses.

The book and the sword as one, we are all of one family. I just hope one day the people of the nations of this world will see it being as one.

Always in Budo

Andy B

P.s I meant your post before your last one, postings out of sink. And yes the Spanish were worse but that is not really the point I was making, I guess the question aught to be then who do we think we are as a species. Now that would bring some weird answers. FWIW

Andy

[Garth]

Again a lot of Buddhists speak letting go of these images imposed upon us by the mindset u speak of .
I see it as a cop out on life and cowardice. "I'm unattached " so it doesn't matter and I don't have to answer for it. Lots more name tags for those kinds of people..
Singing kumbaya and handing out cokes.
I'm glad you are trying to show kids a better way of thinking . Globally so to speak.
I often wonder why I was born here and not some God forsaken place. It certainly was not to place myself above it all.
And when you teach the kids what you do , you are competing in the arena of ideas whether u think so or not . I believe that was also said by an American.
Do countries and political ideas /agendas have anything to with martial arts/ .
I think that they do

[hughrbeyer]

I'm not responding to the anti-US stuff, it's too juvenile to bother.

Though I might mention that the whole concept of "human rights" was invented by theologians in the Spanish Catholic church who were appalled at the treatment of native Americans and who sought to develop a theology to explain why even non-believers had to be treated as the image of God.

"Sword is the same no different, Uketachi (attacker) attacks ok in a very pre-determined way I accept that, but the underlying princple of controlling the opponents sword not him" -- NO, no, no! You control your opponent through his sword, not the other way around.

Kevin, the relationship back to economic competition strikes close to home, and is my touchstone for a lot of this. I'm a consultant. I confront reality every day. Reality is, if I don't offer a service my client values, I don't eat. It doesn't matter how pure I am or how theoretically perfect my work is. If it isn't valuable, and they don't see it as valuable, I don't eat.

In fact, I'm prepared to argue that capitalism is the most moral economic system available, for this very reason. If anyone in the economy wants to eat, they need to offer society a service that is perceived as valuable--not by their own self-centered values, but by the values of others. If Lady Gaga's services are more highly valued by more people than my local (very good) public high school's science teacher, so be it.

Marc- You know I was referring to honor/shame societies in the technical sense in which public honor and the public maintenance of honor through retribution matters. And yes, no blame to those in societies--if that's how your society works, you can't opt out of the game.

In everyday language, yeah, shame has its uses. I still remember one family conference where I laid out a situation in front of everyone and told them that in my opinion, we should be ashamed of ourselves as a family--and invited them to disagree with me. (They didn't.)

And that relates back to the topic here. "Shame" in this sense is a recognition that you have failed your own standards. To fail to feel shame in those circumstances is to fail to recognize where you need to grow. In my family story, the purpose of the discussion was to recognize our failings and work on them, not just to make everyone feel bad.

Same, as I see it, with budo. Budo provides a framework in which we find it hard not to recognize our failings and limitations, in a context that encourages working on overcoming those limitations. It teaches a pattern in which our failings are faced unflinchingly, addressed sincerely, and on a regular basis overcome and surpassed.

Taking those lessons into everyday life is, surely, valuable.

[hughrbeyer]

Again a lot of Buddhists speak letting go of these images imposed upon us by the mindset u speak of .
I see it as a cop out on life and cowardice. "I'm unattached " so it doesn't matter and I don't have to answer for it. Lots more name tags for those kinds of people..

Shucks, gotta address this.

This is a real misinterpretation of Buddhism. You don't let go of anything by denying it. You let go of it by accepting it--"Yes, I am possessed by rage now. This is my rage. It is my response to the moment. It is real just as the butt-cushion I am sitting on is real--and it is illusion just as the butt-cushion is illusion. Accepting the rage, I can move beyond it to understand the reality of the situation" is more how I understand Buddhism. Same with non-attachment--non-attachment doesn't mean indifference. It means understanding the appalling nature of the situation without getting caught up in it.

[TheAikidoka]

I'm not responding to the anti-US stuff, it's too juvenile to bother.

Though I might mention that the whole concept of "human rights" was invented by theologians in the Spanish Catholic church who were appalled at the treatment of native Americans and who sought to develop a theology to explain why even non-believers had to be treated as the image of God.

"Sword is the same no different, Uketachi (attacker) attacks ok in a very pre-determined way I accept that, but the underlying princple of controlling the opponents sword not him" -- NO, no, no! You control your opponent through his sword, not the other way around.

Kevin, the relationship back to economic competition strikes close to home, and is my touchstone for a lot of this. I'm a consultant. I confront reality every day. Reality is, if I don't offer a service my client values, I don't eat. It doesn't matter how pure I am or how theoretically perfect my work is. If it isn't valuable, and they don't see it as valuable, I don't eat.

In fact, I'm prepared to argue that capitalism is the most moral economic system available, for this very reason. If anyone in the economy wants to eat, they need to offer society a service that is perceived as valuable--not by their own self-centered values, but by the values of others. If Lady Gaga's services are more highly valued by more people than my local (very good) public high school's science teacher, so be it.

Marc- You know I was referring to honor/shame societies in the technical sense in which public honor and the public maintenance of honor through retribution matters. And yes, no blame to those in societies--if that's how your society works, you can't opt out of the game.

In everyday language, yeah, shame has its uses. I still remember one family conference where I laid out a situation in front of everyone and told them that in my opinion, we should be ashamed of ourselves as a family--and invited them to disagree with me. (They didn't.)

And that relates back to the topic here. "Shame" in this sense is a recognition that you have failed your own standards. To fail to feel shame in those circumstances is to fail to recognize where you need to grow. In my family story, the purpose of the discussion was to recognize our failings and work on them, not just to make everyone feel bad.

Same, as I see it, with budo. Budo provides a framework in which we find it hard not to recognize our failings and limitations, in a context that encourages working on overcoming those limitations. It teaches a pattern in which our failings are faced unflinchingly, addressed sincerely, and on a regular basis overcome and surpassed.

Taking those lessons into everyday life is, surely, valuable.

I agree with pretty much all that Hugh said except that capitalist society is the only way to go. Oh please it's almost dead in the water. We need to find a new way, so that we can live in a sharing caring way. Not because we have to or feel obligated to, but because it is the right thing to do. I teach my kids to share!

About sword I think that is kind of samantics there Hugh, I control the opponents sword through body movement, so I do not have to worry about controlling him. We move in such a way that when the kumi tachi ends if the attack continues he indeed cuts himself, if that makes sense. Not that i cannot take the initiative if it escalates and I am in mortal danger, yes I can still act, and then deliver the decisive blow out of compassion for life, not out of a sense of wanting to control and kill the opponent.

Andy B

[TheAikidoka]

Shucks, gotta address this.

This is a real misinterpretation of Buddhism. You don't let go of anything by denying it. You let go of it by accepting it--"Yes, I am possessed by rage now. This is my rage. It is my response to the moment. It is real just as the butt-cushion I am sitting on is real--and it is illusion just as the butt-cushion is illusion. Accepting the rage, I can move beyond it to understand the reality of the situation" is more how I understand Buddhism. Same with non-attachment--non-attachment doesn't mean indifference. It means understanding the appalling nature of the situation without getting caught up in it.

I am not ignoring reality here Hugh, I am confronting it head on and with passion, so to speak.
Are you of the mind all is well in the world. I would hardly say all has been well in this world for at least wellover a couple a hundred years, all that you said about capitalism is a conditioned response to keep it the way it is, because the fear of change is also rife, within society.
I am not talking about non-attachment here either, although that certainly has its place in the egoic mind, I believe non-attachment is pointing to the fact we seek ourselves in almost every spect of our lives, look at me I've trained to be a doctor, look at me and my wealth, health life style isn't it all great. Non of those things even if we are one of those types of people are who we truly are. That is the illusion, we are much much deeper than all that, but that is only a pointer to the truth, indeed who among us can really speak of the truth of who we really are?
I will use a quote from the bible I don't know if it is an accurate one but it goes something like this, Jesus said, "I am the truth and the light" I believe there is a piece missing here. It should have been, jesus said " I am the truth and the light, And so are you too, it's just I know it to be true and you simply are not aware of it.....yet".

Now could you read my original post and tell me now what you think of it.

Andy B

[Garth]

Shucks, gotta address this.

This is a real misinterpretation of Buddhism. You don't let go of anything by denying it. You let go of it by accepting it--"Yes, I am possessed by rage now. This is my rage. It is my response to the moment. It is real just as the butt-cushion I am sitting on is real--and it is illusion just as the butt-cushion is illusion. Accepting the rage, I can move beyond it to understand the reality of the situation" is more how I understand Buddhism. Same with non-attachment--non-attachment doesn't mean indifference. It means understanding the appalling nature of the situation without getting caught up in it.

Accepting it and moving on before dealing with it. I meant the vehicle and how it is used by most or understood. Same as " it is real and a n illusion". What is that. R we living a dream? So did the Spanish missionaries "get caught up in it" or not ? Only took them 300 years for their idea to be taken seriously. I am fully invested in living and understanding within myself so I guess u can say I am caught up.
I am not up to argueings any of Buddhism's tenets nor equipped. So maybe I misunderstand .
By comparison ( sorry) how effective have they been in getting their point across and without being esoteric?

[Garth]

Also, i am very accepting of the fact that I am a juvenile .
This anti capitalist ,anti US , Occupy Whatever mindset crap on the other hand is not. They are totally mature and unaccepting of other views.

[Gorgeous George]

How 'bout that aikido, eh?

[TheAikidoka]

Also, i am very accepting of the fact that I am a juvenile .
This anti capitalist ,anti US , Occupy Whatever mindset crap on the other hand is not. They are totally mature and unaccepting of other views.

Yes that is why when we went into afganistan and Iraq, it was widely reported that, I can't for the life of me remember which general who said this but it was said. We will be setting up new schools to re-educate them.
Funny that greg, it is exactly the same way as the government of the day did on the Indian reservations, built new schools to re- educate them. And do it goes on and on. Now that again hardly seems a mature and respective attitude towards others way of thinking/life. However yet again you have identified yourself with a certain culture time and place. Not who you really are beyond all that mental stuff.

The only and I repeat only thing I am trying to show, is how mad all this competition is, you even have had the thought I am personally attacking you and not the mind set, and have believed that thought. now can you see the deep routes of the contentious egoic competitive mind. There is nothing personal or anti this nation or that nation, to put it another way then it is a sickness, a human sickness that has not been identifîed as such by the mass majority of the whole human race. And most can't even see it when it is right under there noses because usually they too identified with me and the story of my life and all the problems I have in it, to see or even seek truth.

Andy B

[Kevin Leavitt]

So how does re-educating kids in afghanistan differ from re-educating kids in your dojo?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Andrew Bedford wrote:

I teach to have complete control of the situation, but not to have a feeling of controlling the opponent, in this way I believe that the attacker at this point loses the will to fight, because tori does not have a mindset of fighting just to control the situation so nobody gets hurt, i.e. nobody loses. So this is as you put it a win/win situation, and do you know what, the kids understand it. How brilliant it is a childs mind, truly open, and not bogged down yet with the mind of the competing self.


Controlling the situation, but to not have a feeling of controlling the opponent. Can you clarify that as I don't understand what you mean?

Does it mean you don't have a feeling of control or the opponent doesn't have a feeling of control?

There has to be a feedback mechanism of some sort that provides you with the information that you are in control of the situation or the opponent. How does that work?

Losing the will to fight. I assume we are talking martial arts so the will to fight is a physical presence. Doesn't really matter though if we are discussing the formation of thought or transference of that thought to a physical action. How does he lose the will to fight. What is it that makes him reach the conclusion that fighting is futile?

Is it that he understands that he will be defeated physically if he fights? Is it that he spontaneously transcends violence in your presence....you know....sort of like the Grinch and his heart grows.

What is it in the situation that provides him the energy or input to change?

When dealing with someone that has deep hate in his heart and is willing at all cost to cause harm to you, how do you create that win/win situation and get him to transcend that hatred simply by controlling the situation. What is at the core that creates the "tipping point" that makes him realize that there is another way than what the sum of his life's experiences have told him up in till that point is the only way?

[Garth]

Pompous nonsense
Just because you identify with a set of ideals of a country rather than say a philosopher or single religion or philosophy (and you do even if you won't admit it) does not make you wrong or right.

Last time I checked they built the schools,they were Not teaching RaRa America stuff , in fact they were free to go on about whatever they wanted . Better to blow the schools up with the kids inside right? Oh i think that may have been the other side you speak of. You can walk down 3rd ave in Brooklyn for that matter and see all the Anti American stuff being taught in the Muslim schools. (I did) So u are flat wrong and twisted in your views .... Again
BBC is a flat out bunch of liars and you sound like their mouthpiece rather than a proponent of Morihei's message. Or whoever it is you are mouthing for. Sadly you are not alone in your views
Which by the way you should investigate a little more , (ueshiba)prewar, just to see exactly what it is you are talking about.
Done here
Good luck

[Garth]

Andrew, Again you are choosing "sides" not transcending them as Kevin put so well.

[TheAikidoka]

Andrew Bedford wrote:

Controlling the situation, but to not have a feeling of controlling the opponent. Can you clarify that as I don't understand what you mean?

Does it mean you don't have a feeling of control or the opponent doesn't have a feeling of control?

There has to be a feedback mechanism of some sort that provides you with the information that you are in control of the situation or the opponent. How does that work?

Losing the will to fight. I assume we are talking martial arts so the will to fight is a physical presence. Doesn't really matter though if we are discussing the formation of thought or transference of that thought to a physical action. How does he lose the will to fight. What is it that makes him reach the conclusion that fighting is futile?

Is it that he understands that he will be defeated physically if he fights? Is it that he spontaneously transcends violence in your presence....you know....sort of like the Grinch and his heart grows.

What is it in the situation that provides him the energy or input to change?

When dealing with someone that has deep hate in his heart and is willing at all cost to cause harm to you, how do you create that win/win situation and get him to transcend that hatred simply by controlling the situation. What is at the core that creates the "tipping point" that makes him realize that there is another way than what the sum of his life's experiences have told him up in till that point is the only way?

All these points are very valid to this thread, again I thank you for the contribution and the chance to explain where I am coming from with this.
I try and get across in the dojo, that the fight/situation whatever you want to call must be delt with before even the attack has begun. This next point seems small, however it is the at the heart of the matter.
I teach, YOU have done everything humanly possible to avoid confontaion in the first place, so you are avoiding the mindset and do not have in you the will to fight. However if things escalate from the attackers point of view then the situation must still be controlled. In this way you are already ahead of the game so to speak, because you do not want to fight. So you see the escalation and position yourself in such a way to your opponent that you almost offer him an opening, an obvious opening, and in that moment when you attacker see's it and he moves in, you are at a massive advantage, massive. Because you have controlled it from the outset. Now it is possible to apply any technique really with having full control of the situation, and yes if that causes the attacker pain and discomfort for a few seconds so be it.
Now hopefully, if you have the presence of mind, you could at this point actually tell the attacker what you just did, and that fighting is useless. Then we change the mind of contention.
In fact such a situation happened to me, the guy stood up, and asked how did you do that, we ended up having a long friendship that still remains to this day, and he too now practices Aikido.

I've never seen the grinch, but yes it is very similar to this. And I'm not trying to re-educate my students in the dojo by force, I teach and show them they have a choice how they apply martial arts in a real confrontation, it's truly up to them which teaching they follow, and it is there responsibility. That is there choice, not mine.

Losing the will to fight from the attacks point of view means, that he sees the situation is so controlled, that indeed if he were to continue it would be obvious what the outcome would be. Another quote I like use in the dojo is again I'm not sure who said this " a true pacifist is not a true pacifist if he is not able to in a blink of an eye cut down and finish the enemy, but at the moment of impending doom chooses peace".

I don't have a feeling of controlling the person when I practice Aikido, but I certainly do have the sense of cooling and controling the situation, here is why, what if he has friends, that I don't know about who may come running to his defence if I have a fight with this guy. Fighting closes the mind to this possibility, however if his friends could see that I did not ask, want or indeed need to fight, I believe the chances are after the situation is over, and let's say you are standing applying gently yonkyo finish so the attacker can no longer hurt you or others around you, and the attcker is also unhurt, you have the presence of mind to look around to see that the situation is controlled, his friends would also think twice about joining in, by default they too loose the will to fight.

All this is achievable, by dropping the competative contentious mind that is always at odds with something. Dropping ego is the same thing. In my honest opinion.

In Budo

Andy B

[morph4me]

I'd like to suggest that competitive mindset is not the problem. A non competitive mindset is just as dangerous as an overly competitive mindset. Both mindsets, depending on circumstances are valid and have their places and uses. The problem is the expression of either mindset to the detriment of ourselves or others.

[gregstec]

How 'bout that aikido, eh?

Yeah, I have heard it is mostly non-competitive - what about you? :D

Greg

[TheAikidoka]

So how does re-educating kids in afghanistan differ from re-educating kids in your dojo?

I simply give them a choice, show them both ways, fighting, then not fighting, then let them make there own mind up. And that's exactly what I have told them, I've given them the respect that children deserve, and have given them a choice, and it is totally upto them what they do with that. It is their responsibility.
This also has the added benefit of treating them as an adult even if they are 7years old. Why do I do this at this young age I hear people ask, well if you look back through some of my post's, it is because I understood this at a young age and had it almost beat out of me, and I later re-learned/remembered, through Aikido.

I give them a choice. Instead of telling them. Instead of saying you should do this that and the other. No that is the wrong way and that is competing again, "do as i say because I'm right and you are wrong".
Give them a choice, and let them figure it out for themselves, and you know what, they usually pick the right choice, for them, when they see a choice.

In Budo

Andy B

[TheAikidoka]

I'd like to suggest that competitive mindset is not the problem. A non competitive mindset is just as dangerous as an overly competitive mindset. Both mindsets, depending on circumstances are valid and have their places and uses. The problem is the expression of either mindset to the detriment of ourselves or others.

Tom I can respect where you coming from totally. Thank you for you post.

However, I am simply saying, that the competative mind is so entrenched in human life, that it affects practically everything we do to each other, as individuals, how we treat each other on the international stage, how we treat and care for the planet we just happen to be a part of, not own which is also part of the competing mindset, this is mine that is yours but you have more than me can I have some please so we are equal, no this is all mine mine mine, ok then if you ain't willing to share and live in a state harmony so to speak we will take it by force.
Or the religious competition, my god is the true god and what you say is heresy,so let's have a war to see who's god is the strongest the best, and who has a strongest faith. Belief, again in my honest opinion, is only another thought form, any belief, be it religous or not, is not based on fact, oris not based in reality. True religion from whatever denomination you are talking about or belong too, teaches this does it not. My personal beliefs should explained here's now, as to give the full picture.
And it is a human condition, it is sickness of the highest order.

I love reading everything from the bible to quaran, from Buddhist scripture, to the esoteric writings of the kojiki. I was extatic to find on online translation of the kojiki, nihon shojiki, on sacred texts.com. I believe they are all talking about the same THINGS. :)
You just have to filter out the parts that have been added that condemns other religions as being false, or wrong, because even here it is the contending mind coming in through the back door to sabotage real efforts for peace.
7 billion people roughly inhabit the earth, and everyone seems to be literally at this moment in time screaming out for peace. The keys to peace lie in the hands of every head of each country, who should be representing there countries views, not competing for this that or the other commodity, and when the competing goes to far, it eventually leads to war. Instead of the peace making they we put there for in the first place.

Competition - to win at any cost, non-competion - do not lose in such a way that nobody loses :)

In Budo

Andy B

[Marc Abrams]

I am having flashbacks.... Somebody help me please!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib-Qiyklq-Q

Andrew:

If idyllic, simplistic thinking was truly effective, then we would all be singing while sipping on our Cokes. Unfortunately, roughly 7 billion people are not literally screaming for peace. People like Kevin Leavitt have to be in places to see first hand, that many people are screaming to kill others. Others are torturing, starving, abusing, and systematically depriving the basics of a decent life to others while they enjoy the benefits of their own autocratic worlds, others have to decide which child to feed and which one starves to death, while physically protecting what little food they have on hand, etc..

Maybe, just maybe, if more people could appreciate a more realistic understanding of this world, truly appreciate what sacrifices others make so that we can wax poetically about the garden of eden..... The shear complexity of the crises that this world face, cannot be reduced to such simplistic logos, such as "Competition - to win at any cost, non-competion - do not lose in such a way that nobody loses" and hope to provide any real direction or answers. If you do not believe me, take your ideas and volunteer to spend some time in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria, etc.. Maybe you can offer some Aikido lessons to President Assad.

I would venture to say that a majority of the world would love to live in peace. What you say, sounds great from the comforts of your computer keyboard. If you were in Homs at this moment, your thinking might be a little more nuanced and different than it currently is. Just my guess...

Marc Abrams

[TheAikidoka]

I am having flashbacks.... Somebody help me please!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib-Qiyklq-Q

Andrew:

If idyllic, simplistic thinking was truly effective, then we would all be singing while sipping on our Cokes. Unfortunately, roughly 7 billion people are not literally screaming for peace. People like Kevin Leavitt have to be in places to see first hand, that many people are screaming to kill others. Others are torturing, starving, abusing, and systematically depriving the basics of a decent life to others while they enjoy the benefits of their own autocratic worlds, others have to decide which child to feed and which one starves to death, while physically protecting what little food they have on hand, etc..

Maybe, just maybe, if more people could appreciate a more realistic understanding of this world, truly appreciate what sacrifices others make so that we can wax poetically about the garden of eden..... The shear complexity of the crises that this world face, cannot be reduced to such simplistic logos, such as "Competition - to win at any cost, non-competion - do not lose in such a way that nobody loses" and hope to provide any real direction or answers. If you do not believe me, take your ideas and volunteer to spend some time in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria, etc.. Maybe you can offer some Aikido lessons to President Assad.

I would venture to say that a majority of the world would love to live in peace. What you say, sounds great from the comforts of your computer keyboard. If you were in Homs at this moment, your thinking might be a little more nuanced and different than it currently is. Just my guess...

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,
As strange as it may seem I'm actually agreeing with you.:)
But as I have said elsewhere, I feel I have to make a stand somewhere. And through the medium of martial arts, this is where I try and make a difference. At the children's class last Saturday, the best lesson I taught, was actually after the class has finished. A teenager had got off the mat and went straight for his inhaler. I asked why he did not tell me he was asthmatic, indeed it could have been dangerous for me not to know. He explained it was sports related asthma he had developed. I asked if he had ever been shown diaphragmatic breathing through the judo or Iaido classes he also takes at the dojo. No he said, so I sat with him for a few minutes and explained how it works, and he said oh I was taught that in singing classes years ago but forgot it. Now this teenager I saw the other day, and he had told me he has not had to use his inhaler all week, due to that technique I had shown him.

This is a exactly what I'm talking about, sharing knowledge, not hoarding it. And yes the problems of the world to my way of thinking is as simple as greed and competition over one and other.this is what it boils down to in its essence. I only have to turn on the tv at night to any news chanell or again read a history book of the last century, to see the madness, the sickness, the complete insanity of the competing human mind, it pandemic across the entire globe. We do have to change for the sake of change, for the sake of the planet, for the sake of all life included in all that is humanity itself and of itself.

I make the stand here and now, in this moment, because that is the only true reality there really is. This is Budo.

Andy B

[Kevin Leavitt]

Andrew B wrote:

teach, YOU have done everything humanly possible to avoid confontaion in the first place, so you are avoiding the mindset and do not have in you the will to fight. However if things escalate from the attackers point of view then the situation must still be controlled. In this way you are already ahead of the game so to speak, because you do not want to fight. So you see the escalation and position yourself in such a way to your opponent that you almost offer him an opening, an obvious opening, and in that moment when you attacker see's it and he moves in, you are at a massive advantage, massive. Because you have controlled it from the outset. Now it is possible to apply any technique really with having full control of the situation, and yes if that causes the attacker pain and discomfort for a few seconds so be it.


not my experiences in reality. I'll try to explain as I have some experience in fighting people not only in a dojo or competition ring, but real people that hate me and hate you, and everything about us.

First, I never WANT to fight. I don't go looking to fight, but to at the same time, I have no problem facing someone that is doing the wrong things.

That said, I am not sure what picture you have in your head about how real fighting occcurs. It ain't like in the dojo, you don't sit there and reason with a guy and then he picks up a weapon or springs an attack on you and then you respond. It doesn't happen like that....it never has happened like that for me, NEVER.

He will attack when he believes he can beat you, when the odds are in your favor. He will smile at you, call you friend, then attack you when you are not expecting it or at least when he thinks he has a chance. He inately understand the process of OODA and will attempt to use it in his favor.

So, when he attacks, you are rarely in control initially, you DON"T have the luxury of using any technique you wish, and you DO NOT have a massive advantage. Not remotely.

In the fights I have been in, you are mostly in a state disadvantage intially until you orient, decide, and act. you come out of the situation okay because you did something to regain control. It could be superior training/skill, luck, or maybe you have friends or buddies that had your back (security).

Another quote I like use in the dojo is again I'm not sure who said this " a true pacifist is not a true pacifist if he is not able to in a blink of an eye cut down and finish the enemy, but at the moment of impending doom chooses peace".


I always choose peace...it is my attacker or opponent that makes the other choice and I finish it if necessary (hopefully).

I agree 100% with this definition. So now we are doing to brass tacks and the real core of the subject. Physical, real, martial skill. Have the skills, knowledge, and abilty to do something about the situation if necessary.

Seeing that we both agree on this subject. I am very interested in exchanging ideas about how you train your students to deal with and respond to those that do not wish to harmonize, reason, nor share the same love for non-competitiveness that you do.

I assume you prepare your students to deal with the realities and stresses that are involved in fighting and train them in concepts such as stress overload, andrenal dump, and how to deal with situations from positions of disadvantage and points of failure.

I know for myself and my training, it is a comfort and has created the room necessary for me to in many cases not have to engage in fighitng or violence, but knowing that I have a solid martial background that I can rely on if necessary to cut down my opponent if necessary.

Sounds like you and I are on the same sheet of music Andrew and most of this might be simply semantics!

[Kevin Leavitt]

I simply give them a choice, show them both ways, fighting, then not fighting, then let them make there own mind up. And that's exactly what I have told them, I've given them the respect that children deserve, and have given them a choice, and it is totally upto them what they do with that. It is their responsibility.
This also has the added benefit of treating them as an adult even if they are 7years old. Why do I do this at this young age I hear people ask, well if you look back through some of my post's, it is because I understood this at a young age and had it almost beat out of me, and I later re-learned/remembered, through Aikido.

I give them a choice. Instead of telling them. Instead of saying you should do this that and the other. No that is the wrong way and that is competing again, "do as i say because I'm right and you are wrong".
Give them a choice, and let them figure it out for themselves, and you know what, they usually pick the right choice, for them, when they see a choice.

In Budo

Andy B

....BUT...you didn't answer my question: So how does re-educating kids in afghanistan differ from re-educating kids in your dojo.

You seem to imply that ISAF building was perptuating the horrible competive mindset. I was asking you to clarify and compare the two environments. One from your experiences in Afghanistan based on what we are doing to support education and community reform, to what we/you are teaching first world western kids in a dojo.

I am simply trying to understand where you are coming from in your statements as you seem to have experience in these areas based on your writings.

[graham christian]

I don't see the competitive mindset as polar opposite to non competitive myself as far as Aikido goes.

The term has been adopted to represent something and that something transcends the competitive mindset.

Regards.G.

[Marc Abrams]

Hi Marc,
As strange as it may seem I'm actually agreeing with you.:)
But as I have said elsewhere, I feel I have to make a stand somewhere. And through the medium of martial arts, this is where I try and make a difference. At the children's class last Saturday, the best lesson I taught, was actually after the class has finished. A teenager had got off the mat and went straight for his inhaler. I asked why he did not tell me he was asthmatic, indeed it could have been dangerous for me not to know. He explained it was sports related asthma he had developed. I asked if he had ever been shown diaphragmatic breathing through the judo or Iaido classes he also takes at the dojo. No he said, so I sat with him for a few minutes and explained how it works, and he said oh I was taught that in singing classes years ago but forgot it. Now this teenager I saw the other day, and he had told me he has not had to use his inhaler all week, due to that technique I had shown him.

This is a exactly what I'm talking about, sharing knowledge, not hoarding it. And yes the problems of the world to my way of thinking is as simple as greed and competition over one and other.this is what it boils down to in its essence. I only have to turn on the tv at night to any news chanell or again read a history book of the last century, to see the madness, the sickness, the complete insanity of the competing human mind, it pandemic across the entire globe. We do have to change for the sake of change, for the sake of the planet, for the sake of all life included in all that is humanity itself and of itself.

I make the stand here and now, in this moment, because that is the only true reality there really is. This is Budo.

Andy B

Andy:

Now that we are on similar lines of thinking, let us take it a step further. You are in some part of Africa where there is a famine. You are clawing the dirt for some roots that will only help to provide a hint of nutrition for maybe two people. You have six children and your neighbor has five children. The earth on his plot has nothing left to provide in the way of nutrition. That person is approaching you with a stick/spear to kill you in order to dig up the earth to get those roots. Do you still have a non-competing mind? Budo would also be taking your spear and killing that person in recognition of the larger reality that only one of you will remain alive to dig up those roots. That situation in horrible and is repeated daily....

Providing information to help your asthmatic student was nice. Taking a global stand from the comforts of the community that you live in is great as well. Sharing information, such as how to easily and cheaply sterilize water helps to save many lives. Sharing information about better agricultural practices helps to save many lives. Shooting a person in the head who is approaching a group of civilians and is wearing a suicide vest that is about to be set off helps to save many lives. I cannot see how telling people to get rid of a competing mindset provides any immediately useful information to help save people's lives.

The sword that gives life still kills in order to keep a life going. That is also the loving protection of budo. Budo from the comforts of our dojo in our safe communities allows us the freedom of expression about budo that would not exist/survive in other settings. I am not suggesting that dojo cho have an obligation to go to the front lines of a war zone. I am suggesting that we need to be realistic in the real limitations under which we do what we do. Teaching fantasies can be very, very dangerous. Teaching somebody to present openings to a person who does not care if he/she dies and who wants to kill you is not something I would advocate. Nor, would I advocate teaching somebody that paradise awaits you if you turn yourself into a human bomb and wipe out a bunch of infidels. Budo is about loving and protecting life. Sometimes that means that evil must be crushed. Sometimes it can get very murky and ugly with no apparent absolute rights and wrongs. Hopefully the ideals of budo can help us live a little longer.

Marc Abrams

[TheAikidoka]

Andrew B wrote:

not my experiences in reality. I'll try to explain as I have some experience in fighting people not only in a dojo or competition ring, but real people that hate me and hate you, and everything about us.

First, I never WANT to fight. I don't go looking to fight, but to at the same time, I have no problem facing someone that is doing the wrong things.

That said, I am not sure what picture you have in your head about how real fighting occcurs. It ain't like in the dojo, you don't sit there and reason with a guy and then he picks up a weapon or springs an attack on you and then you respond. It doesn't happen like that....it never has happened like that for me, NEVER.

He will attack when he believes he can beat you, when the odds are in your favor. He will smile at you, call you friend, then attack you when you are not expecting it or at least when he thinks he has a chance. He inately understand the process of OODA and will attempt to use it in his favor.

So, when he attacks, you are rarely in control initially, you DON"T have the luxury of using any technique you wish, and you DO NOT have a massive advantage. Not remotely.

In the fights I have been in, you are mostly in a state disadvantage intially until you orient, decide, and act. you come out of the situation okay because you did something to regain control. It could be superior training/skill, luck, or maybe you have friends or buddies that had your back (security).

I always choose peace...it is my attacker or opponent that makes the other choice and I finish it if necessary (hopefully).

I agree 100% with this definition. So now we are doing to brass tacks and the real core of the subject. Physical, real, martial skill. Have the skills, knowledge, and abilty to do something about the situation if necessary.

Seeing that we both agree on this subject. I am very interested in exchanging ideas about how you train your students to deal with and respond to those that do not wish to harmonize, reason, nor share the same love for non-competitiveness that you do.

I assume you prepare your students to deal with the realities and stresses that are involved in fighting and train them in concepts such as stress overload, andrenal dump, and how to deal with situations from positions of disadvantage and points of failure.

I know for myself and my training, it is a comfort and has created the room necessary for me to in many cases not have to engage in fighitng or violence, but knowing that I have a solid martial background that I can rely on if necessary to cut down my opponent if necessary.

Sounds like you and I are on the same sheet of music Andrew and most of this might be simply semantics!

Again thank you kevin for this, I will start another thread. entitled how to be non-competative in a competative world. This may take some time as again I am now back at work, but hopefull will be done shotly.

Andy B

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Regarding the Yukiyoshi Takamura quote mentioned in this thread, I think it should be read in the proper context.

Some aikido teachers talk a lot about nonviolence, but fail to understand this truth. A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and nonviolence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence. He chooses peace. He must be able to make a choice. He must have the genuine ability to destroy his enemy and then choose not to. I have heard this excuse made. "I choose to be a pacifist before learning techniques so I do not need to learn the power of destruction." This shows no comprehension of the mind of the true warrior. This is just a rationalization to cover the fear of injury or hard training. The true warrior who chooses to be a pacifist is willing to stand and die for his principles. People claiming to be pacifists who rationalize to avoid hard training or injury will flee instead of standing and dying for principle. They are just cowards. Only a warrior who has tempered his spirit in conflict and who has confronted himself and his greatest fears can in my opinion make the choice to be a true pacifist.

http://www.shinyokai.com/Takamura%20interview.pdf

[genin]

Pacifism should be chosen because non-violence is either a moral belief, or a means to an end. It should not be chosen because you are afraid of somebody hurting you.

[TheAikidoka]

New thread is up in the general forum. please add anything or comment on anything you do not understand where im coming from. it may get moved from general, I hope not but there we go.

Andy B

[Basia Halliop]

Something that I haven't seen brought up as such (although it may have just been expressed in a different way - it's a long thread) is the fact that there are many layers of these 'mindsets' going on at any given time, and often different things can be going on underneath the outwardly apparent competitive or non-competitive mindset.

E.g. an environment that is apparently non-competitive may have a lot of unspoken competition underneath. There may be a lot of politics and one-upmanship, without the interactions being competitive in their outward form.

Similarly the opposite can be true. Little kids or adults playing a competitive game who are genuinely friends may play a game that is outwardly competitive, whether it's physical, a board game, a computer game, etc. But if you watch more closely you may find that each is actually trying to make sure the others are having fun too, helping weaker players or adapting the game so they can participate and enjoy the game too. On one level they are competing, but on another level, they are also co-operating at the same time.

IMO, when you consider the consequences the OP talked about, whether you agree that those are accurate consequences or not, you have to take into account that what's going on at the deepest level as often as not has nothing to do with the outward form of the engagement.

[TheAikidoka]

Basia, I could not agree more ;-) thank you for your comments. If you wish You may consider reading the new thread I have just started, How to be NON-competative in a competative world.
which can be found here, http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20925.
Please respond to this thread, if you wish too.

Many thanks for your contribution.

Andy B

[hughrbeyer]

I love reading everything from the bible to quaran, from Buddhist scripture, to the esoteric writings of the kojiki. I was extatic to find on online translation of the kojiki, nihon shojiki, on sacred texts.com. I believe they are all talking about the same THINGS. :)
You just have to filter out the parts that have been added that condemns other religions as being false, or wrong, because even here it is the contending mind coming in through the back door to sabotage real efforts for peace.

<face palm>

Right, of course it's so great to read all these different religious books, as long as you're careful to filter out the parts you don't agree with--and then you find that the parts you do agree with are all saying the same thing! And it's what you're saying! That's so AMAZING!

Argh. Bite. Gnash. Snarl.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

<face palm>

Right, of course it's so great to read all these different religious books, as long as you're careful to filter out the parts you don't agree with--and then you find that the parts you do agree with are all saying the same thing! And it's what you're saying! That's so AMAZING!

Argh. Bite. Gnash. Snarl.

Don't forget to change what the books say and add what they should say...

I repeat a quote from my ealier post: Jesus said "I am the truth and the light". I believe there is a piece missing here, it should been which I believe to be the truth, Jesus said "i am the truth and the light, you too are the truth and the light, its just you are not aware of it......yet"

Amazing indeed.

[TheAikidoka]

If you truly think that is what I am saying, then that is also fine, I`m not. Those as I have said are just pointers. That is what words do, they point. And yes almost alll religous txt have already been warped in some form or another, to further the twisted views of those who wish to do harm, there is no harm in non resistance. It is fully excepting what is. If you do not believe that you and I and everybody else is the truth, and the light of human conscousnes living life now, then it will never be for you.
I believe all the spiritual scriptures point to this reality, but out dated "thought Forms" are kept in place, to keep the true religous seekers, in theire place and stop them finding the truth themselves. Because what do you think would happen if the spiritual seekers, became spiritual finders. There would be no need for the priest, rabbi, spiritual teacher or whatever. They would already know the truth, that they already are the truth. cant you see that?

In Budo

Andy B

[Tenyu]

pertinent excerpts (http://ascentofhumanity.com/chapter5-1.php) ::::

It is not just religion that depends on the innate depravity of the human species. The doctrine extends beyond theology to atheistic psychology, most famously in the writings of Sigmund Freud, but more recently in works of various Darwinian sociobiologists and cognitive psychologists such as Richard Dawkins and Stephen Pinker.v

Here is a revealing irony: although Protestant fundamentalists vilify Darwinism and seek to keep it out of the public schools, their view of the innate sinfulness of man is in complete agreement with the Neo-Darwinian account of life's origins and evolution. Each dovetails beautifully with the other. This should come as no surprise, since both Darwinism and Original Sin arise out of the same deep cultural conceptions of self and the universe.vi

The Nature implicit in Darwinism, including human nature, is not very nice. It is a nature in which competition is the rule, in which the deepest purpose of life, the deepest motivation of behavior, is to survive and reproduce, and in which cooperation is an occasional, coincidental product of an alignment of interests. Cooperation is okay, but it is even better to trick other organisms into helping you while you refrain from expending any energy helping them. As Richard Dawkins writes, "Natural selection favours genes which control their survival machines in such a way that they make the best use of their environment. This includes making the best use of other survival machines, both of the same and different species."vii

The definition of the self implicit in the dominant theories of biogenesis and evolution is that each of us is a discrete, separate being struggling against other such beings to survive and reproduce. In this view, from the unicellular stage to the present, successful organisms are those that are better able to look after their own interests at the expense of their rivals, a rival being defined as anything competing for the same resources. Any organism programmed by its genes to enact behaviors that diminish its chances of surviving and reproducing—for example sharing resources when there may not be enough for itself—is less likely to reproduce, and those genes will die out of the gene pool. In other words, we are programmed—life is programmed—to profit at the expense of other beings. Can you think of a better definition of "not nice" than that? Selfishness being our nature, of course we need laws, morals, and self-control to rein in that selfishness and become civil beings.

Thus, mainstream science and mainstream religion agree that we are by nature bad; that therefore, just as we must control Nature, we must control, regulate, improve upon, and yes, dominate ourselves in order that we may be good. Let us add to this agreement economics, which also holds as a central axiom that people are driven to maximize self-interest. If science, religion, and economics all agree, the doctrine of innate badness must have deep roots indeed. It is no accident that it is orthodoxy in both the scientific and religious realms. The ideology of our civilization—progress, ascent—depends on it. It is therefore built into many of our reflexive assumptions of what is true. It is also built into our money system, thus generating the very same behavior that we mistake as fundamental.

Because it is imbued so deeply into our mythology, our ideology, our culture, and our economy, the doctrine of original sin is actually correct—correct insofar as we are immersed in our culture. It is correct given our ideological infrastructure and the motivations built in to our cultural institutions.

Hobbes wrote Leviathan long before Darwin ever conceived of evolution via natural selection and long before the theory of the selfish gene was ever invented. The "(human) nature is bad" idea goes back way before Darwin, before Hobbes, before Luther and Calvin. It is implicit in dualism itself, which finds its origins in the so-called Neolithic Revolution if not before, even if its full articulation was not to come until the Scientific Revolution.

[Tenyu]

and (http://ascentofhumanity.com/chapter5-2.php) ::::

We have become confused. Rational self-interest has become the dupe of our culture's perceptions, so that it is neither rational nor in our interest. Our selfish behavior is only superficially so; actually it conflicts with our true best interests. Chief among such behavior is that which ruthlessly maximizes the perceived benefits of the skin-encapsulated ego. Limiting our destructiveness is not a matter of reining in our natural selfish impulses; it is a matter of understanding who we really are. When we do not know who we are, of course our selfishness cannot benefit our true selves. Hence, the endemic misery in our society among its winners and losers alike.

It would be one thing if, indeed, the world were essentially a competitive arena destined to have winners and losers. We would then be justified in making every effort to be among the winners. The sad truth, though, is that in our society, the winners are among the biggest losers of all. Now, that is a bold statement indeed. Reading it, you may suspect I am deficient in knowledge or compassion. What are the petty troubles of the rich compared to the horrendous suffering of our culture's victims? What's a little angst or depression next to starvation, destitution, murder, genocide, tyranny, torture, the smashing of cultures, the looting of ecosystems? Surely I must be oblivious to the true magnitude of the horror.

The litany of our culture's victims is nearly endless—the indigenous peoples, the poor, the ecosystems that have been sacrificed in the interests of wealth and power—but we could hardly blame the exploiters if the alternative were to be themselves among the victims. Who can blame someone for being good to themselves? If the world is in essence "lunch or become lunch" (as I once saw ecology defined), then we cannot blame someone for striving to be in the former category. In such a world, an appropriate ethical system would have the winners be as nice as possible to the losers, offering safety nets to the poor, remediation to the environment, limits on how big a winner you can be. [B]This, in essence, is political liberalism, which does not question any fundamental assumptions. In addition, saintly individuals and their imitators might cast themselves among the losers on purpose (even though they could be a "winner" if they so deigned), thereby demonstrating just how nice they are, refusing to take more than their share, nobly sacrificing their chance to enjoy the rewards of privilege. Of course, unless you actually are a saint, this self-sacrificial mentality eventually generates resentment at those who decide to enjoy the fruits of being a winner, a resentment often apparent in social and environmental activists. But all of this assumes that the winners really are winners. And that is a deception! Our winners have successfully maximized their "rational self-interest" only to find the promise of secure happiness betrayed.

Do not waste your energy being angry at the rich and powerful. As the Bolsheviks unwittingly demonstrated, nothing much changes even if the rich and powerful are overthrown. Moreover, that anger is in fact counterproductive. Often, the hidden message of activist rhetoric is, "Do not be too good to yourself," or "You are bad for being good to yourself." No wonder so many people are turned off. Those who rely on guilt or shame to persuade us to limit our participation in the destruction of the planet and its people are, in a very subtle way, perpetuating some of the deep axioms that drive the destruction in the first place. They are resorting to a form of control, control over an iniquitous human nature. In a subtle way, they reenact and reinforce the same war of conquest that has left the planet in tatters.

Another hidden assumption is that the good life, whether we unabashedly pursue it or nobly sacrifice it, is actually a good life. It is not. We are chasing a mirage. We have been tricked, duped into the aggrandizement of a narrow self that ultimately doesn't even exist.

[Tenyu]

and (http://ascentofhumanity.com/chapter6-7.php) ::::

Of course, none of the communities of life described above are autonomous. All organisms and microsystems depend on the health of the ecosystem in which they live, and each ecosystem depends on other, distant ecosystems. And all higher life forms depend on the bacteria which maintain a life-supporting atmosphere. While life on earth can sustain the loss of some species, each species depends on the whole. None can exist in isolation on a bare and lifeless planet. We may thus also consider the only viable unit of life to be the entirety of all life, along with inorganic processes relating to the water cycle and carbon cycle. The conception of the organism as an autocatalytic set is misleading, because no organism is fully autocatalytic. Like the human depending on essential amino acids, etc., all life forms depend on the rest of life for their long-term survival. The only autocatalytic set is the entire planet. If that.

These examples of flatworms and mycorhizza are not anomalies, not some odd curiosity of nature. They are ubiquitous. Cooperation is everywhere. Life depends on it. Only the cultural blinders of Darwinian survival-of-the-fittest, the dog-eat-dog world, prevent us from seeing it. We live in a cooperative biological world, a living entity which we call Gaia.

Some might quibble with the characterization of earth as a living organism, but it does possess many features of one, most notably homeostatic regulation of temperature, gases, salinity, and other variables. Each species contributes some way to the metabolism and homeostasis of the planet. Coral creates lagoons that help remove salt from the ocean, which would otherwise double in salinity in just 60 million years. Photosynthesizing algae and rainforests produce the oxygen that sustains animal life, while other mechanisms prevent oxygen levels from going too high and sparking devastating planet-wide forest fires. Bacteria accelerate rock weathering to bring carbon out of the atmosphere, while marine animals eventually turn that carbon into shells ultimately sequestered on the ocean floor. And something, some combination of organic and inorganic processes, has kept earth's surface temperature stable as the sun's apparent brightness has increased by 30 or 40 percent over three billion years. Gaia maintains homeostasis, responds to external stimuli, and grows, if not in size at least in complexity.iii The only attribute of a living being that Gaia does not possess is, we are told, the ability to reproduce.

Evolution is often depicted as an arms race, with plants developing ever more sophisticated chemical defenses against predation, while the insects that feed on them try to adapt to those defenses or face starvation. While examples of this do occur in nature, as between cheetah and gazelle, it is actually an unusual situation that we take as typical only because that's what we look for. Far more typical is the relationship between the Douglas fir and the spruce budworm. During periods of very light infestation the tree produces no response, but when budworm numbers begin to grow the trees alter their terpene releases in a way that interferes with budworm feeding and reproduction.iv The trees don't try to eliminate the budworm and other pests and take over the earth, but merely help maintain budworm populations at the right level. Many other plants do the same thing, tolerating moderate foraging but responding aggressively to severe infestation. Others possess compounds that are toxic only in large quantities, such as phytoestrogens that interfere with grazers' reproduction if eaten to excess.

With few exceptions, modern human beings are the only living beings that think it is a good idea to completely eliminate the competition. Nature is not a merciless struggle to survive, but a vast network of checks and balances that ensures each species occupies its proper place. Indeed, the extinction of any species usually has negative consequences that spread throughout the ecosystem, often to the detriment of even its former prey. Are the deer better off when they are finally free from the tyranny of the wolves? Only if you think starvation, bark stripping, and the degradation of the entire forest ecology are an improvement.
The study of ecology leads toward a view of nature as a vast gift-giving network, rather than a competitive, accumulative network. In his classic work, The Gift, Lewis Hyde observes that in primitive cultures it was in the essence of a gift that it had to be passed on or consumed—many cultures actually used the word "eaten". Gifts were not accumulated. Similarly, each species, each organism, has something to give to its environment, through which resources flow freely. Even in the case of predation, locutions like, "The deer gave itself to the wolf" reveal an unconscious insight, that underneath the very real life-and-death struggle there is a fateful and intimate connection between predator and prey.

Just as hunter-gatherers did not accumulate possessions, animals and plants don't try to make the world theirs by taking over ecosystems and wiping out other species. (Opportunistic weeds may "take over" an area for a time, but soon give way to more complex ecosystems. Their rapid initial takeover might be a gift to the community as well, for example by stabilizing denuded soil and preventing erosion.) In a gift-based world, the needs of the rest of the community define a purpose to life. Instead of a struggle to survive, life is an aspiration toward excellence in the role presented to each organism, or each person.

It was only with the advent of agriculture that human beings began to think in terms of eliminating the competition: weeds, wolves, and insect pests. What of the deer problem? We will cull the herd and manage deer populations. What of the diseases that afflict monocultures? We will manage them with chemicals. The project of eliminating the competition coincides with the ambition to order and manage nature, culminating in the total mastery of nature that is the fulfillment of the Technological Program. Or as a Scientific American cover once put it, "Managing Planet Earth."

[TheAikidoka]

This is going to take time to digest. Tenyu, I cannot thank you enough for you contribution. I have said, competition in and of it self is not a bad thing, a gave the example I think of judo in the martial context, it does indeed teach you to be in the moment, as do non competative martial martial arts, or should, so you can deal with a potentially violent situation.

However I am talking about the, unchecked, competative mind for the sake of competition, is madness. In the book the life giving sword, Yagyu Munenori (sorry if I spelt this wrong), states mind is sickness, and when are people going to listen about the enemy (ego) lurking is the one that needs to be cut down, the mind of thought.
Always no matter what it is, a conflict of whatever magnitude begins with thought, does it not?
We live in a time, where we are still fighting the arguments of centuries ago, still trying to prove who is right or wrong. This is all based in Human thought. Not the natural intelligence you mention in your previous post. I do not believe, it is a lunch eat lunch attitude, as I call it the "real world". There are indeed a lot of checks and balances that are in place, so no one species is alowed to dominate an area or indeed the entire planet, well not for too long anyway. Mother nature, Gaia, natural intelligence or the movements of the cosmos , ki energy, no matter what you want to call it, will save herself almost in one sense from herself , and this natural intelligence, it exist of and in itself in everything.
Some may even enterpret this as god essence, and I have no problem with that either, I think it is as close to understanding that god is in us as it gets.

Why do I say this, well because it's not something you think about, but rather you "Know" and feel to be true, and it is almost unspeakable. But here we are speaking about it.

Inhabit the body somebody once told me. I didn't understand what this ment for years I didn't get this. It literally means, inhabit the body, place some of your attention in you body, personally I use diaphragmatic breathing to practice being in the body. And I noticed something quite strange, the body LOVES, attention. I felt all tingly and almost light felling, and the first thing I noticed when I opened my eyes was how absolutely still everything was, I couldn't believe it, how had I not "seen" this before, then I noticed how everything was also surrounded by stillness. Not only that but everything was absolutely silent too, but it didn't freak me out or anything, because it was "natural". The last thing I notice was also everything was surrounded by a certain amount of spaciousness.
Please look around you and see it for yourself!

Now if this is true for everything else, think about it :-)

IT MUST BE TRUE FOR US TOO.

Indeed there are a lot of religious, social, political, dogma out there that is almost terrified, of us seeing the real beauty in the human body.
Because without this mindset of controlling through fear of the body,fear of self, fear of future, fear of the past, fear of what they will do to me, fear of not being good enough, fear of not being strong enough, fear of not being pretty enough, fear of............. And on it goes.
They loose there own sense of self , and would have to see we are all essentially the same. Who really wants to loose there sense of self, of me and I'm right your wrong, the me and all my problems, when the real problem is the contending mind itself. We are the problem, and none of us can see that either.

It is the human mind/thought set, of overly competing, and not understanding this natural intelligence, that nature does indeed provide enough for all if we are willing to share it, and not contend with each in everything we do. This includes one of the most amazing human attributes, Love.

In Budo

Andy B