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AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 12:01 PM
I've been studying aikido for 7 months, and I get along absolutely famously with everyone in class; my sensei has even told me on more than one occasion how much everyone loves having me around. I'm very grateful for their acceptance and I really feel like I belong at the dojo.

But there's this one student who seems to have a real problem with me. I've never said or done anything to him, but it seems like every class he comes to, he just HAS to say something negative to me. Some of the things he's said to me have been completely ridiculous; he told me once that I was standing too close to him! He goes out of his way to make sure his mission is accomplished; he grabbed my sleeve once to make sure we were paired together, and then when we were out of earshot, he said something.

Either he says something negative to me, or he uses a tone with me like he thinks I'm slow and stupid. To my knowledge, he doesn't do this with anyone else, just me, and I'm really getting sick of it. I feel ill when he's at class because I don't know what he's going to say next.

If a sensei or senior student is not right next to the two of us, he seems to really have a hayday with me.

The ONLY reason I can think of as to why he's treating me this way is because of my success. I work really hard, and I'm approaching his rank rather quickly, and because I'm always at class and study, I know the names of arts better than he does.

It doesn't help, either, that everyone keeps talking about me, senseis included. They keep talking about how I'm ready for my next test (I JUST took one), and how I'll be getting my hakama soon, and how I learn fast and already know most of the arts below bb, and how everyone learns a lot from me because without enough weight underside during arts, I'll go flying across the mat. I'm grateful that everyone is so supportive, but it makes me uncomfortable that they keep talking about me. I just want to blend in.

I think it's silly to be jealous of someone who simply works hard, but it's the only thing I can think of. I plan on talking with my sensei about it, but I'd really appreciate any thoughts.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-13-2012, 12:11 PM
Nikkyo him. A lot.

Michael Hackett
02-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Treat him as if he were a bitter medicine - rush over and ask him to train with you at the first technique of class, and then move on and enjoy the rest of the class and the other students.

Krystal Locke
02-13-2012, 12:49 PM
Irimi: Ask him why he's doing that.
Tenkan: Talk to sensei about it.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-13-2012, 12:51 PM
Don't forget atemi.

Keith Larman
02-13-2012, 01:09 PM
Oh, please, ignore the guy and move on. Not difficult. And if your sensei and others are as infatuated with you as you indicate then what's the problem? As Michael said, pair up with the guy first to get it over with and focus on your training. Why do you care what this guy thinks? If the guy is an ass he is likely an ass to others as well. If it gets too much talk with your sensei.

SeiserL
02-13-2012, 01:27 PM
Irimi: Ask him why he's doing that.
Tenkan: Talk to sensei about it.
IMHO, good advice.

kewms
02-13-2012, 01:31 PM
One of the things you should be learning from aikido is grace under pressure. This is an opportunity to practice.

If he is being physically abusive, then yes, you absolutely should discuss it with an instructor. At 7 months in, there's plenty that senior students can dish out that you shouldn't be expected to handle.

But verbal nastiness? Meh. Shut up and train.

Katherine

Chris Li
02-13-2012, 01:34 PM
What would you do with anyone who bullied you? I see this all the time, but I never understand why adults who deal with bullies in their normal lives, or have dealt with them in the past, suddenly don't know what to do just because it's in the context of the dojo.

Best,

Chris

Marie Noelle Fequiere
02-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Dojos, dance schools, even graphic art schools are like families. The new student - especially the gifted one - often has to deal with the jealousy of the senior students. Conflicts and rivalries can turn ugly if the instructor in charge is not careful to avoid inflating some student's ego, and to hurt a previously best student by suddenly relegating them to second place.
Or it may just be that the guy was born jealous genes, period. Some people are like that.
Anyway, I agree with Michael and Keith. The world is not perfect, and if you are doing so well in the dojo, just let him marinate in his own problems and move on with your training and your life.;)

Alic
02-13-2012, 02:34 PM
Put up or shutup

Nuff said

In all seriousness, I started Aikido as a result of bullying. I've had to beg for my life once and even came close to dying, all without having done anything to deserve it. It was something I could never forget and I've always harboured a deep-seated hatred for bullies as a result.

Don't blend in, it doesn't work. You've already got the red dot on your forehead. That guy isn't going to stop until you either stop coming or take him out. Guys like him are insecure about themselves, and when confronted with their inadequacy, rather than work harder to compensate like the rest of us true budoka's, he starts to attack others, physically or emotionally. He is small minded and even smaller hearted and I do not consider him an Aikidoka.

Ignoring doesn't work either, I've tried all of the tricks and tips people give you. These guys never had any experience in this, and so they'll just give you some halfassed answer and leave it at that. Even if you become a fucking ninja and disappear from view, that jerk will hunt you down and put you down, just for his own satisfaction. Never give in and never back down, don't ignore and show him what you got.

There's usually only two ways to deal with guys like him (from my two years of experience in hell). Beat the living crap out of him till he's either half-dead or given up, and then tell him train instead of flap lips. Another way is to speak to your sensei about it and see if he can't convince the bully to follow Aikido's principle and improve himself.

This guy isn't doing as much as you to improve, and if he isn't as talented as you, then that should be a signal for him to work twice as hard to keep up. Frankly, he should be happy to have a rival now. For him to act in this way as a result of you improving just goes to show his shallowness. Usually, people like him have never experienced what it's like to be bullied around in their life, but have been wounded in some other way. However, that is not an excuse to harm others and continue the cycle of pain. Once he started to attack you verbally, he's a perp, and no longer the victim

In other words: you must confront. He will not stop, so neither should you. Show him that you will not stand being pushed around, even by a sempai, and that you are a true budoka and Aikidoka, unlike him.

P.S. I am not talented like my sempai's and even some kouhai's, so I put in twice the time they do, and it shows. My sempai's encouraged me though, and comes more regularly as a result to keep up their skills with me. Don't settle for any less, these are the kind of people that deserves to be called sempai!

Marie Noelle Fequiere
02-13-2012, 03:02 PM
Wow. Alic, I am so sorry that you had to go through all this. Your answer is very emotional, and you have plenty of reasons to react like that.
I've been in the past through a situation similar to the one described here. I never had to beg for my life like you had to but neither does the original poster. Even the teacher was against me - it was not an Aikido class -, because of some distorted information having been past down on him. I found that if I left, everybody would remember me according to this incorrect information, so I stayed and looked at everybody in the eyes. It took a fair amount of time, but one fine day, someone started to wonder if something was wrong somewhere.
The original poster is not apparently worried for his life, and I do not think that his particular situation demands such an aggressive reaction. If he does react like you suggest, he might very will find himself with a big bully label on his forehead.

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:14 PM
Nikkyo him. A lot.

Haha, thanks! :)

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:15 PM
Treat him as if he were a bitter medicine - rush over and ask him to train with you at the first technique of class, and then move on and enjoy the rest of the class and the other students.

I like that idea. Bitter medicine he is. Thank you!

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:16 PM
Irimi: Ask him why he's doing that.
Tenkan: Talk to sensei about it.

Good idea! Thanks!

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:18 PM
One of the things you should be learning from aikido is grace under pressure. This is an opportunity to practice.

If he is being physically abusive, then yes, you absolutely should discuss it with an instructor. At 7 months in, there's plenty that senior students can dish out that you shouldn't be expected to handle.

But verbal nastiness? Meh. Shut up and train.

Katherine

He gets physical when he can't "get me down" as my sensei likes to say. Apparently I'm really sensitive to intent, and if there isn't enough of it, it doesn't work. He usually ends up royally frustrated whenever he works with me. Thank you for the advice. :)

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:21 PM
Wow. Alic, I am so sorry that you had to go through all this. Your answer is very emotional, and you have plenty of reasons to react like that.
I've been in the past through a situation similar to the one described here. I never had to beg for my life like you had to but neither does the original poster. Even the teacher was against me - it was not an Aikido class -, because of some distorted information having been past down on him. I found that if I left, everybody would remember me according to this incorrect information, so I stayed and looked at everybody in the eyes. It took a fair amount of time, but one fine day, someone started to wonder if something was wrong somewhere.
The original poster is not apparently worried for his life, and I do not think that his particular situation demands such an aggressive reaction. If he does react like you suggest, he might very will find himself with a big bully label on his forehead.

Thank you Marie. My sensei wouldn't let it go that far, and neither would I, although I feel for Alic. I just want this particular student and I to get everything smoothed over. I'm not asking him to be my best friend, I just don't want him treating me like crap.

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:26 PM
Put up or shutup

Nuff said

In all seriousness, I started Aikido as a result of bullying. I've had to beg for my life once and even came close to dying, all without having done anything to deserve it. It was something I could never forget and I've always harboured a deep-seated hatred for bullies as a result.

Don't blend in, it doesn't work. You've already got the red dot on your forehead. That guy isn't going to stop until you either stop coming or take him out. Guys like him are insecure about themselves, and when confronted with their inadequacy, rather than work harder to compensate like the rest of us true budoka's, he starts to attack others, physically or emotionally. He is small minded and even smaller hearted and I do not consider him an Aikidoka.

Ignoring doesn't work either, I've tried all of the tricks and tips people give you. These guys never had any experience in this, and so they'll just give you some halfassed answer and leave it at that. Even if you become a fucking ninja and disappear from view, that jerk will hunt you down and put you down, just for his own satisfaction. Never give in and never back down, don't ignore and show him what you got.

There's usually only two ways to deal with guys like him (from my two years of experience in hell). Beat the living crap out of him till he's either half-dead or given up, and then tell him train instead of flap lips. Another way is to speak to your sensei about it and see if he can't convince the bully to follow Aikido's principle and improve himself.

This guy isn't doing as much as you to improve, and if he isn't as talented as you, then that should be a signal for him to work twice as hard to keep up. Frankly, he should be happy to have a rival now. For him to act in this way as a result of you improving just goes to show his shallowness. Usually, people like him have never experienced what it's like to be bullied around in their life, but have been wounded in some other way. However, that is not an excuse to harm others and continue the cycle of pain. Once he started to attack you verbally, he's a perp, and no longer the victim

In other words: you must confront. He will not stop, so neither should you. Show him that you will not stand being pushed around, even by a sempai, and that you are a true budoka and Aikidoka, unlike him.

P.S. I am not talented like my sempai's and even some kouhai's, so I put in twice the time they do, and it shows. My sempai's encouraged me though, and comes more regularly as a result to keep up their skills with me. Don't settle for any less, these are the kind of people that deserves to be called sempai!

Wow. Thanks for taking the time to write all of that, Alic. I appreciate it and I'm sorry for what you went through. I don't think he cares very much about aikido, as he doesn't come to class that much, and I also don't think he really has much drive to improve. I'm not going to let him get the best of me, though.

I think it's great that you work so hard. Keep it up! Thanks for the comment.

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:28 PM
Oh, please, ignore the guy and move on. Not difficult. And if your sensei and others are as infatuated with you as you indicate then what's the problem? As Michael said, pair up with the guy first to get it over with and focus on your training. Why do you care what this guy thinks? If the guy is an ass he is likely an ass to others as well. If it gets too much talk with your sensei.

Thanks, Keith. I appreciate the advice. :)

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:30 PM
What would you do with anyone who bullied you? I see this all the time, but I never understand why adults who deal with bullies in their normal lives, or have dealt with them in the past, suddenly don't know what to do just because it's in the context of the dojo.

Best,

Chris

Thanks, Chris. You're right. It is kind of interesting, isn't it? I just want us to get along and be done with it.

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 03:40 PM
Dojos, dance schools, even graphic art schools are like families. The new student - especially the gifted one - often has to deal with the jealousy of the senior students. Conflicts and rivalries can turn ugly if the instructor in charge is not careful to avoid inflating some student's ego, and to hurt a previously best student by suddenly relegating them to second place.
Or it may just be that the guy was born jealous genes, period. Some people are like that.
Anyway, I agree with Michael and Keith. The world is not perfect, and if you are doing so well in the dojo, just let him marinate in his own problems and move on with your training and your life.;)

Thank you, Marie. I'm going keep on chugging along with my happy train, definitely! :) I don't think my sensei is inflating my ego...at least, not intentionally; he just ends up talking about me a lot. I try not to have one, reminding myself that I just work hard. I know I'm no better than anyone else and everyone else knows that I know. I mean, I can't do a lot of things that other people can, like math. Everybody has things they're good at.

Unfortunately, this particular student is not as regular as I and some of the others are, and my instructor has had trouble with him in the past, so I don't think he's now second fiddle. I do think he has a problem with my rank, though, because before my 5th kyu test, he was fine. It was when I started climbing the ladder that he started acting up. The other students are getting pretty irritated that he's treating me this way. I'm not sure they particularly care for him, either.

Again, thanks! :) I'm going to talk with my sensei tonight about getting people to stop talking about me, etc.

lbb
02-13-2012, 03:44 PM
Well, presumably your purpose in being there is to get the best training experience you can, which is not the same thing as "best night out with friends" or "best relaxing evening at a cafe" or something like that. The emphasis is on training, and the word "training" includes the idea that there's a goal to improve, and that you'll have to work to reach that goal. That being the case, my suggestion is to take everything with a very large grain of salt: the denigrating comments you're getting from this guy, but even more importantly, the apparent praise you're getting from everyone else.

In our dojo, it's quite common for a relatively new student to get a lot of encouragement and a lot of comments on their progress, which can sound a lot like praise, but really isn't. Seniors do this because they recognize that aikido is often very frustrating at first, and that newbies may not recognize the progress that they're making -- so, you want to call it to their attention in order to reinforce the idea that they are improving. But the bar isn't set very high for this "praise". You're recognizing that someone is making progress, that's all. At the same time, more advanced students don't seem to get a lot of praise. They're much more likely to be criticized -- not because they're doing poorly, in most cases, but because they're expected to need less in the way of propping-up, be ready for more in the way of challenge, and have the experience and knowledge to get something useful out of the criticism.

So, I'd shy away from the conclusion that this guy hates you because you're beautiful (obCulturalReference). If he appears to dislike you, it's no doubt more complicated than that. And if everyone else appears to praise you, that's probably more complicated than you think too.

Alic
02-13-2012, 04:18 PM
Haha, perhaps when considering that the person is still on the verbal stage, counter attacking physically would overkill, as that is escalating the violence, and not very aiki.

If he does start getting physical, by all means retaliate, as that is what you are taught: defend yourself. But I guess it's fine since you have lots of support from all your dojo-mates and teachers.

In my situation, I was essentially isolated and vulnerable, so I had to thinking in a survival sense. I guess it wasn't really sound advice to tell others to lash out, so that's something I'll have to work on during training. Gotta mellow out :)

... If I meet another bully again however... things are gonna end very... VERY... differently :p

kewms
02-13-2012, 04:19 PM
He gets physical when he can't "get me down" as my sensei likes to say. Apparently I'm really sensitive to intent, and if there isn't enough of it, it doesn't work. He usually ends up royally frustrated whenever he works with me. Thank you for the advice. :)

Some people tend to disconnect after their initial attack. Such people are difficult to throw, but since they aren't actually attacking, who cares?

Without getting my hands on both of you, I wouldn't necessarily agree that *his* intent is missing. It could be yours. Or it could be both. Neither of you is really senior enough to assume that what you're doing is "right." More likely, the flaws in your ukemi directly align with the flaws in his technique.

Katherine

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 04:24 PM
Some people tend to disconnect after their initial attack. Such people are difficult to throw, but since they aren't actually attacking, who cares?

Without getting my hands on both of you, I wouldn't necessarily agree that *his* intent is missing. It could be yours. Or it could be both. Neither of you is really senior enough to assume that what you're doing is "right." More likely, the flaws in your ukemi directly align with the flaws in his technique.

Katherine

I'm just going by what my sensei says. Even he has a tough time with me sometimes. I don't know WHY I do it, I just do. All I know is that it makes this student frustrated. Thanks for the comment!

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 04:26 PM
Haha, perhaps when considering that the person is still on the verbal stage, counter attacking physically would overkill, as that is escalating the violence, and not very aiki.

If he does start getting physical, by all means retaliate, as that is what you are taught: defend yourself. But I guess it's fine since you have lots of support from all your dojo-mates and teachers.

In my situation, I was essentially isolated and vulnerable, so I had to thinking in a survival sense. I guess it wasn't really sound advice to tell others to lash out, so that's something I'll have to work on during training. Gotta mellow out :)

... If I meet another bully again however... things are gonna end very... VERY... differently :p

I'm hoping to nip it in the bud before it gets there. I'm very grateful for their support, to be sure. :)

It's okay! I appreciate the time taken to comment! :)

AikidoObsessed
02-13-2012, 04:27 PM
Well, presumably your purpose in being there is to get the best training experience you can, which is not the same thing as "best night out with friends" or "best relaxing evening at a cafe" or something like that. The emphasis is on training, and the word "training" includes the idea that there's a goal to improve, and that you'll have to work to reach that goal. That being the case, my suggestion is to take everything with a very large grain of salt: the denigrating comments you're getting from this guy, but even more importantly, the apparent praise you're getting from everyone else.

In our dojo, it's quite common for a relatively new student to get a lot of encouragement and a lot of comments on their progress, which can sound a lot like praise, but really isn't. Seniors do this because they recognize that aikido is often very frustrating at first, and that newbies may not recognize the progress that they're making -- so, you want to call it to their attention in order to reinforce the idea that they are improving. But the bar isn't set very high for this "praise". You're recognizing that someone is making progress, that's all. At the same time, more advanced students don't seem to get a lot of praise. They're much more likely to be criticized -- not because they're doing poorly, in most cases, but because they're expected to need less in the way of propping-up, be ready for more in the way of challenge, and have the experience and knowledge to get something useful out of the criticism.

So, I'd shy away from the conclusion that this guy hates you because you're beautiful (obCulturalReference). If he appears to dislike you, it's no doubt more complicated than that. And if everyone else appears to praise you, that's probably more complicated than you think too.

I really appreciate the advice. Thank you! :)

Keith Larman
02-13-2012, 04:55 PM
PBBBS.

Pre Black Belt Brilliance Syndrome.

As Mary already described, newer students gets lots of feedback and encouragement. They also often get more "leading" attacks to help them *find* the correct way of applying the techniques. Over time the student starts to learn and becomes reasonably proficient. Many will see themselves as doing very well because after all, they're throwing just like the seniors, right?!?!?!? Then we start to see PBBEIPOMS. Pre Black Belt Everyone Is Picking On Me Syndrome. The more senior people start to push the techniques a bit, start to lead less and attack with more reality. Slowly but surely they're not so easy to throw because it is time for the Brown Belt to learn to do it "for reals" (tm, patent pending).

I've met many a brilliant mudansha (in their minds). Quite a few almost as brilliant shodan. Then by around nidan they start figuring out that the whole "shodan really means beginner" deal really has some foundation in reality.

Of course your mileage may vary...

lbb
02-13-2012, 08:15 PM
PBBBS.

Pre Black Belt Brilliance Syndrome.

"No one knows as much about karate as a green belt. Just ask one."

Keith Larman
02-13-2012, 10:16 PM
"No one knows as much about karate as a green belt. Just ask one."

Yup... :)

gates
02-13-2012, 10:17 PM
You have had some great advice, here is my take:

Remember that bullies are often covering up something else, perhaps problems at home, perhaps feelings of insecurity. The underlying reasons why they may be acting this is not your problem, but understanding that there may be other things at play may help you to ‘pitty' them and help you to take the moral high ground and rise above it, feeling strong within yourself.

This is a wonderful life lesson which you can gain incredible skills in dealing with such behavior. In the adult world it is just a prevalent, and the way to deal with it is essentially the same.

You need to send a clear and unequivocal message that you will not tolerate his behavior towards you without making the situation worse.

What might make it worse?
1. Message is too weak and taken as invitation for further bulling behavior
2. Message is too strong and/or causes embarrassment which angers him into a stronger vendetta against you

Here are a couple of ideas of the types of things you could say:

"I will not tolerate your behavior toward me, I will speak to Sensei if I have to"

"I find the way your talk to me incredibly annoying, do not ask me to train with you unless we can concentrate on working TOGETHER to get better at the techniques"

"You have no right to talk to me this way, I come here to learn and dont want you distracting me"

Keep it short, simple, non personal, statments of how it affects your training, not how it affects your feelings. Show no weakness, keep it clear direct and on point without getting personal.

Remember it is not just what you say that is important, it is the also ‘energy' (ki) and ‘intent' with which you say it. The energy that is transmitted within the message really is the key. As with Aikido techniques, the outerform needs to be just right but the inner, latent (unseen) qualities are really what makes it work.

You should look him right in the eye (metsuke), and say it from your belly (hara) in a strong, clear, direct and calm voice, with no hint of hessitation or fear, and preferable with a firm belief that he will listen to what you say and take it seriously.

Practice in the mirror or with your mum or dad.

If this doesn't work go to Plan B, tell him during/with a nikkyo.

Good luck
Keith

Mario Tobias
02-14-2012, 04:08 AM
The ONLY reason I can think of as to why he's treating me this way is because of my success. I work really hard, and I'm approaching his rank rather quickly, and because I'm always at class and study, I know the names of arts better than he does.

It doesn't help, either, that everyone keeps talking about me, senseis included. They keep talking about how I'm ready for my next test (I JUST took one), and how I'll be getting my hakama soon, and how I learn fast and already know most of the arts below bb, and how everyone learns a lot from me because without enough weight underside during arts, I'll go flying across the mat. I'm grateful that everyone is so supportive, but it makes me uncomfortable that they keep talking about me. I just want to blend in.

I think it's silly to be jealous of someone who simply works hard, but it's the only thing I can think of. I plan on talking with my sensei about it, but I'd really appreciate any thoughts.

hmmm, let's see. Looking at how you're describing the situation, probably you are attracting too much attention to yourself. If I were you, I'll try to keep silent for a while and not seek attention. See how that turns out.

Walter Martindale
02-14-2012, 04:30 AM
If someone can't make you move, see if you can figure out why, and then help them figure out how to make you move - or - ask the sensei something like - "I don't think I'm trying to stop my partner but it's happening - can you see if I'm doing something to interfere with the technique or if there's some error my partner's making?

You've mentioned that you progressed pretty quickly but not what your rank is - however if you've only been in Aikido for less than a few years, you're in a situation of not knowing how much you don't know.

(I've 'passed' a nidan test and I still get very confused at least once a practice, either with what's being taught, why it's working so well, or why it's not working at all, and I try to figure it out whatever the case)

If your partner or potential bully is getting frustrated because you're harder to do a technique with, help him (assuming a him) learn how to do the technique or movement principle better so that you can learn more about a) how to do it better yourself and b) how to read the movements of your partners for practicing kaeshi-waza

Becoming an "expert" or "master" takes (on average) 10,000 hours of practice. Studies are showing that there's a range from about 6000 hours (makes me jealous) and infinity (person should give up and try something else) - maybe you're one of the "early" types.. or maybe not.

Not sure that's exactly what I'm trying to say, but if, in the future, it turns out that this fellow is actually 'bullying', then do it Alic's way...
W

AikidoObsessed
02-14-2012, 11:27 AM
hmmm, let's see. Looking at how you're describing the situation, probably you are attracting too much attention to yourself. If I were you, I'll try to keep silent for a while and not seek attention. See how that turns out.

Thanks, Mario. I'm not TRYING to attract attention to myself. I'm just working hard and practicing, and if that brings on the attention, I don't know what to do, because I love aikido and I love to work hard. :)

AikidoObsessed
02-14-2012, 07:19 PM
If someone can't make you move, see if you can figure out why, and then help them figure out how to make you move - or - ask the sensei something like - "I don't think I'm trying to stop my partner but it's happening - can you see if I'm doing something to interfere with the technique or if there's some error my partner's making?

You've mentioned that you progressed pretty quickly but not what your rank is - however if you've only been in Aikido for less than a few years, you're in a situation of not knowing how much you don't know.

(I've 'passed' a nidan test and I still get very confused at least once a practice, either with what's being taught, why it's working so well, or why it's not working at all, and I try to figure it out whatever the case)

If your partner or potential bully is getting frustrated because you're harder to do a technique with, help him (assuming a him) learn how to do the technique or movement principle better so that you can learn more about a) how to do it better yourself and b) how to read the movements of your partners for practicing kaeshi-waza

Becoming an "expert" or "master" takes (on average) 10,000 hours of practice. Studies are showing that there's a range from about 6000 hours (makes me jealous) and infinity (person should give up and try something else) - maybe you're one of the "early" types.. or maybe not.

Not sure that's exactly what I'm trying to say, but if, in the future, it turns out that this fellow is actually 'bullying', then do it Alic's way...
W

It seems like everyone can take me down just fine once sensei reminds them to use more weight underside. I keep trying to tell this student this but I think it just makes him worse, as I'm below him in rank.

I'm been at it for 7 months and have passed two tests, my second one with a total of less than 6 months in. Right now I'm at 4th kyu, preparing for 3rd.

Thank you so much for the advice! I appreciate the time taken to comment. :)

AikidoObsessed
02-14-2012, 07:20 PM
PBBBS.

Pre Black Belt Brilliance Syndrome.

As Mary already described, newer students gets lots of feedback and encouragement. They also often get more "leading" attacks to help them *find* the correct way of applying the techniques. Over time the student starts to learn and becomes reasonably proficient. Many will see themselves as doing very well because after all, they're throwing just like the seniors, right?!?!?!? Then we start to see PBBEIPOMS. Pre Black Belt Everyone Is Picking On Me Syndrome. The more senior people start to push the techniques a bit, start to lead less and attack with more reality. Slowly but surely they're not so easy to throw because it is time for the Brown Belt to learn to do it "for reals" (tm, patent pending).

I've met many a brilliant mudansha (in their minds). Quite a few almost as brilliant shodan. Then by around nidan they start figuring out that the whole "shodan really means beginner" deal really has some foundation in reality.

Of course your mileage may vary...

Thank you for the advice! :)

AikidoObsessed
02-14-2012, 07:21 PM
You have had some great advice, here is my take:

Remember that bullies are often covering up something else, perhaps problems at home, perhaps feelings of insecurity. The underlying reasons why they may be acting this is not your problem, but understanding that there may be other things at play may help you to ‘pitty' them and help you to take the moral high ground and rise above it, feeling strong within yourself.

This is a wonderful life lesson which you can gain incredible skills in dealing with such behavior. In the adult world it is just a prevalent, and the way to deal with it is essentially the same.

You need to send a clear and unequivocal message that you will not tolerate his behavior towards you without making the situation worse.

What might make it worse?
1. Message is too weak and taken as invitation for further bulling behavior
2. Message is too strong and/or causes embarrassment which angers him into a stronger vendetta against you

Here are a couple of ideas of the types of things you could say:

"I will not tolerate your behavior toward me, I will speak to Sensei if I have to"

"I find the way your talk to me incredibly annoying, do not ask me to train with you unless we can concentrate on working TOGETHER to get better at the techniques"

"You have no right to talk to me this way, I come here to learn and dont want you distracting me"

Keep it short, simple, non personal, statments of how it affects your training, not how it affects your feelings. Show no weakness, keep it clear direct and on point without getting personal.

Remember it is not just what you say that is important, it is the also ‘energy' (ki) and ‘intent' with which you say it. The energy that is transmitted within the message really is the key. As with Aikido techniques, the outerform needs to be just right but the inner, latent (unseen) qualities are really what makes it work.

You should look him right in the eye (metsuke), and say it from your belly (hara) in a strong, clear, direct and calm voice, with no hint of hessitation or fear, and preferable with a firm belief that he will listen to what you say and take it seriously.

Practice in the mirror or with your mum or dad.

If this doesn't work go to Plan B, tell him during/with a nikkyo.

Good luck
Keith

Wow! Thanks so much for taking the time to write all of this! I'm definitely going to tell him he needs to stop next time he says something. :)

phitruong
02-14-2012, 08:28 PM
I think it's silly to be jealous of someone who simply works hard, but it's the only thing I can think of. I plan on talking with my sensei about it, but I'd really appreciate any thoughts.

are you sure it's jealousy? what do you know about his life or anything about him other than his practice at the dojo? he could be bully or he could be not. sometimes, thoughts started out good in the head, by the time they reached the lips, things didn't sound the same. i remembered one time (ok, more than one) i was infatuated with a girl, the words came out of my lips just ended up completely wrong. so he doesn't practice as often, he could be working, school, and various other things that kept him from coming to practice. it could happen; thus my question, what do you know about him, of him?
read this story http://easternhealingarts.com/Articles/softanswer.html

in Sun Tzu's art of war, you must know yourself, and you must know others, before you can win. know either and you lose. knowing yourself, your true self, is the hardest, because you just met your worst enemy and your best of friend.

lbb
02-14-2012, 08:52 PM
It seems like everyone can take me down just fine once sensei reminds them to use more weight underside. I keep trying to tell this student this but I think it just makes him worse, as I'm below him in rank.

That's understandable. It is bad form to instruct your seniors -- and also a bad idea, because you're probably not as right as you think you are. No matter how wrong you think he is, you really will do better to just bite your tongue, let him practice, and leave the instruction up to your sensei. If nothing else, it will probably save you an embarrassing incident down the line when you presume to "instruct" someone who is much senior to you.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." -- Mark Twain

I'm been at it for 7 months and have passed two tests, my second one with a total of less than 6 months in. Right now I'm at 4th kyu, preparing for 3rd.

To be honest, that doesn't really tell us much about your abilities. Different federations have different testing requirements, and some require much more mat time between tests than others.

Chris Li
02-14-2012, 08:58 PM
That's understandable. It is bad form to instruct your seniors -- and also a bad idea, because you're probably not as right as you think you are No matter how wrong you think he is, you really will do better to just bite your tongue, let him practice, and leave the instruction up to your sensei. If nothing else, it will probably save you an embarrassing incident down the line when you presume to "instruct" someone who is much senior to you.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." -- Mark Twain


Honestly, I think that's the root of a lot of problems in Aikido and I'm done with that - if I think someone's wrong I tell them. If they're actually right they should be able to explain why in a reasonable manner. If they can't then...something wrong.

Best,

Chris

lbb
02-14-2012, 09:18 PM
Honestly, I think that's the root of a lot of problems in Aikido and I'm done with that - if I think someone's wrong I tell them. If they're actually right they should be able to explain why in a reasonable manner. If they can't then...something wrong.


Can someone explain differential equations to you if you haven't yet mastered basic algebra? And yet, from the depths of your "knowledge", he/she appears to be spouting gibberish...

Chris Li
02-14-2012, 09:53 PM
Can someone explain differential equations to you if you haven't yet mastered basic algebra? And yet, from the depths of your "knowledge", he/she appears to be spouting gibberish...

No, but they can explain where and how you haven't mastered basic algebra. Every academic field in the west, without exception, encourages students to question and challenge, and that approach has proven so successful that academics in Japan use...the same methodology. Why should that change in the dojo?

If you know what you're doing you ought to be able to explain it. The real problem is that so many senior people can't explain differential equations - or ever understand the equations themselves.

Best,

Chris

danj
02-14-2012, 10:21 PM
It seems like everyone can take me down just fine once sensei reminds them to use more weight underside. I keep trying to tell this student this but I think it just makes him worse, as I'm below him in rank.

I'm been at it for 7 months and have passed two tests, my second one with a total of less than 6 months in. Right now I'm at 4th kyu, preparing for 3rd.

Thank you so much for the advice! I appreciate the time taken to comment. :)

You know aikido and ukemi are two sides of the same coin, resisting to failure of nage's technique doesn't always make friends and can deprive you of an opportunity to learn the second half of the art in kata form. I'm not saying resisting isn't appropriate in training, but needs to be tempered so the the nage-uke dynamic is productive experience for both. YMMV and it perhaps it has.

FWIW when I encounter just an uke who resists to failure all the time, such that the practice becomes unproductive, I just become uke for the rest of the session and work on my ukemi instead, so at least I can learn something and the time isn't wasted.

best,
dan

PS Have you considered that you may appear to be the bully and this is a way for the 'protagonist' to deal with it?

Hanna B
02-15-2012, 04:28 AM
Different dojos have different standards for appropriate levels of resistance, how it should be applied, when and why. So it's kind of difficult for outsiders to judge, but...

He has problems taking you down.
And you are deliberately making it difficult for him.
And then you complain he doesn't like you, and isn't behaving nicely towards you.

Do you think the black belts in your dojo resist your technique with all their might - or do they adjust how much resistance they give you? My guess would be the second.

If you want to help him - we should all help each other in the dojo, right? perhaps you should adjust to "just about right" level of resistance? I mean... just standing there, with an uke I can't move, doesn't teach me anything. Right level or resistance means I have a chance to perform the technique, so I can feel the differences when I do things differently.

Perhaps you could try concentrating on actually helping him with his techniques and see what happens. But don't tell him what do do... that doesn't work with people who already are angry with you. Do it without words. That's an interesting exercise, and a difficult one. When performed well, it is IMNSHO the ultimate way of helping others with their techniques because it doesn't have the same implication of "I'm superior to you, I'm telling you what to do" - and if lower rank/less experience, that's probably the only approach available. If you are talented, which I suppose from your description that you are, you should pick it up somewhat swiftly at least if you have role models. So check if the advanced people in your dojo does any of this, and see if you can imitate the method.

Hanna B
02-15-2012, 04:40 AM
Knowing that your partner is doing something wrong is easy.
Knowing what he (or she) is doing wrong... that is something completely else. Learning to analyse this is a part of becoming a teacher. And the ability to perform this analysis often is the difference between a mediocre teacher and a really good one.

So I'm echoing Mary Malmros here. Don't tell him what to do. You are probably showing bad form in doing so. IF you've understood his problem you can help him without words. If you haven't, you can't - then leave it to the person teaching the class. Or silently by yourself practise your ability to analyse technical faults in others, then non-verbally guiding him into the correct form and see if it works.

If he's having problems doing the technique on you, he probably should ask the teacher to come over. If he doesn't call the teacher, for one reason or another, as Walter suggested you could do it for him.

Walter Martindale
02-15-2012, 07:35 AM
It seems like everyone can take me down just fine once sensei reminds them to use more weight underside. I keep trying to tell this student this but I think it just makes him worse, as I'm below him in rank.

I'm been at it for 7 months and have passed two tests, my second one with a total of less than 6 months in. Right now I'm at 4th kyu, preparing for 3rd.

Thank you so much for the advice! I appreciate the time taken to comment. :)

As Hanna comments (above), "he" should probably be asking the sensei why he can't make you move.. If he doesn't, and tries to muddle through, when and if he does figure it out the learning will be more complete (from having figured it out rather than being told how to fix it).

I recall a situation at a Kawahara seminar. I was practicing with a VERY SOLID person who, like me, was wearing a white belt. We were doing an exercise from kata-te-dori and I couldn't budge the guy. Shihan walked by, I told him I was struggling, (In Japanese I said something like 'he's very strong and I am finding it very difficult to move him"). Sensei watched, changed the direction of my hips, problem solved. (yes, he was solid - I'm 5'10.5" and over 95 kg/210 lb, and he made me feel small - hands like cast-iron fry pans)..

I've found that a lot of sensei and shihan will wander around during the training and watch. Kawahara used to walk around and shake his head. One reason he'd shake his head was the "I showed them a, and they're still doing b, not even looking like they're trying to do a." syndrome you see with a lot of us black belts at seminars. He (and probably many shihan) seemed to like it when people asked for help, but he would only rarely interrupt. I think asking for help indicated to him that you wanted to improve, more than just going through the motions.

So - your partner "the guy" should ask. If he won't, try "I'm not trying to stop you but I can't tell why you're having trouble because I'm too new - can you ask sensei and maybe he'll help get through the frustration?" or something like that?

ryback
02-15-2012, 10:24 AM
Well you say you don't try to drow attention,yet you are posting a thread titled ''help i'm being bullied''in a most...''shouting'' way!To my understanding that guy is telling you ''negative'' things,or with a ''negative'' tone but that is hardly a bullying situation.Rank is a somehow relative thing since there are variations from dojo to dojo but a student of seven months(and for the next years) is an absolute beginer(i don't like calling beginers newbies because sometimes sounds insulting and i hate it,and sometimes sounds cute so i hate it more).In my opinion you should focus on your training regardless of your partner and don't pay too much attention to verbal comments whether positive or negative.Just say hai,bow and go on,too much talking is not a warrior's way.Aikido is a martial art we can't turn the dojo into a kindergarten!I realy hope that my post was of help.Best wishes!
:)

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 02:14 PM
That's understandable. It is bad form to instruct your seniors -- and also a bad idea, because you're probably not as right as you think you are. No matter how wrong you think he is, you really will do better to just bite your tongue, let him practice, and leave the instruction up to your sensei. If nothing else, it will probably save you an embarrassing incident down the line when you presume to "instruct" someone who is much senior to you.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." -- Mark Twain

To be honest, that doesn't really tell us much about your abilities. Different federations have different testing requirements, and some require much more mat time between tests than others.

My sensei says we're supposed to give each other feedback and help each other when something's not working.

The average time to reach 3rd kyu, according to my sensei, is one and a half years.

Thanks for the help! :)

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 02:18 PM
As Hanna comments (above), "he" should probably be asking the sensei why he can't make you move.. If he doesn't, and tries to muddle through, when and if he does figure it out the learning will be more complete (from having figured it out rather than being told how to fix it).

I recall a situation at a Kawahara seminar. I was practicing with a VERY SOLID person who, like me, was wearing a white belt. We were doing an exercise from kata-te-dori and I couldn't budge the guy. Shihan walked by, I told him I was struggling, (In Japanese I said something like 'he's very strong and I am finding it very difficult to move him"). Sensei watched, changed the direction of my hips, problem solved. (yes, he was solid - I'm 5'10.5" and over 95 kg/210 lb, and he made me feel small - hands like cast-iron fry pans)..

I've found that a lot of sensei and shihan will wander around during the training and watch. Kawahara used to walk around and shake his head. One reason he'd shake his head was the "I showed them a, and they're still doing b, not even looking like they're trying to do a." syndrome you see with a lot of us black belts at seminars. He (and probably many shihan) seemed to like it when people asked for help, but he would only rarely interrupt. I think asking for help indicated to him that you wanted to improve, more than just going through the motions.

So - your partner "the guy" should ask. If he won't, try "I'm not trying to stop you but I can't tell why you're having trouble because I'm too new - can you ask sensei and maybe he'll help get through the frustration?" or something like that?

Thanks for the help! I agree that he should ask, but my sensei does tell us to help each other learn and to give each other feedback when something's not working, so I kind of feel like I'm not out of line since the sensei has said that it's okay. He also keeps telling everyone that it's not me, it's them, but I don't know if that helps or just harbors more ill feelings...

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 02:22 PM
Well you say you don't try to drow attention,yet you are posting a thread titled ''help i'm being bullied''in a most...''shouting'' way!To my understanding that guy is telling you ''negative'' things,or with a ''negative'' tone but that is hardly a bullying situation.Rank is a somehow relative thing since there are variations from dojo to dojo but a student of seven months(and for the next years) is an absolute beginer(i don't like calling beginers newbies because sometimes sounds insulting and i hate it,and sometimes sounds cute so i hate it more).In my opinion you should focus on your training regardless of your partner and don't pay too much attention to verbal comments whether positive or negative.Just say hai,bow and go on,too much talking is not a warrior's way.Aikido is a martial art we can't turn the dojo into a kindergarten!I realy hope that my post was of help.Best wishes!
:)

Thanks so much! I didn't mean to shout. :) It's just frustrating that he's treating me like this to begin with. But my sensei told me to take no disrespect on the mat, and he told me that next time, I need to tell this student to treat me with respect. Apparently this student has even been disrespectful to the sensei, which is unbelievable to me.

A beginner's mind is a wonderful thing to have. :)

Thanks again!

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 02:24 PM
Knowing that your partner is doing something wrong is easy.
Knowing what he (or she) is doing wrong... that is something completely else. Learning to analyse this is a part of becoming a teacher. And the ability to perform this analysis often is the difference between a mediocre teacher and a really good one.

So I'm echoing Mary Malmros here. Don't tell him what to do. You are probably showing bad form in doing so. IF you've understood his problem you can help him without words. If you haven't, you can't - then leave it to the person teaching the class. Or silently by yourself practise your ability to analyse technical faults in others, then non-verbally guiding him into the correct form and see if it works.

If he's having problems doing the technique on you, he probably should ask the teacher to come over. If he doesn't call the teacher, for one reason or another, as Walter suggested you could do it for him.

Thank you, Hanna! I appreciate the advice. I don't really feel bad about trying to help him, ONLY because my sensei has told us to help each other and give feedback. Otherwise, I wouldn't do it. I'm going to have to try it non-verbally, though, as you suggested. Thanks!

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 02:29 PM
are you sure it's jealousy? what do you know about his life or anything about him other than his practice at the dojo? he could be bully or he could be not. sometimes, thoughts started out good in the head, by the time they reached the lips, things didn't sound the same. i remembered one time (ok, more than one) i was infatuated with a girl, the words came out of my lips just ended up completely wrong. so he doesn't practice as often, he could be working, school, and various other things that kept him from coming to practice. it could happen; thus my question, what do you know about him, of him?
read this story http://easternhealingarts.com/Articles/softanswer.html

in Sun Tzu's art of war, you must know yourself, and you must know others, before you can win. know either and you lose. knowing yourself, your true self, is the hardest, because you just met your worst enemy and your best of friend.

I don't know for sure, but this didn't start until I started climbing the ladder, and I haven't said anything mean to him. It was the only thing I could think of, but that doesn't make it right. :)

Thanks so much.

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 02:32 PM
You know aikido and ukemi are two sides of the same coin, resisting to failure of nage's technique doesn't always make friends and can deprive you of an opportunity to learn the second half of the art in kata form. I'm not saying resisting isn't appropriate in training, but needs to be tempered so the the nage-uke dynamic is productive experience for both. YMMV and it perhaps it has.

FWIW when I encounter just an uke who resists to failure all the time, such that the practice becomes unproductive, I just become uke for the rest of the session and work on my ukemi instead, so at least I can learn something and the time isn't wasted.

best,
dan

PS Have you considered that you may appear to be the bully and this is a way for the 'protagonist' to deal with it?

Thanks for the help! You mean, I'm being the bully by working hard? I haven't said anything negative to him, so I don't know how I could be a bully.

kewms
02-15-2012, 04:58 PM
There are lots of ways in which a new student can be irritating, most of which have nothing to do with the student's rate of progress.

* Refusal/inability to give real attacks, thereby making real technique nearly impossible.
* Refusal/inability to maintain connection after the initial attack.
* Refusal/inability to acknowledge one's own vulnerability, which manifests as refusing to fall down even when one is clearly in danger.
* Lack of understanding of appropriate ukemi generally. For instance, sometimes disconnecting after the initial attack is the right thing to do, but most beginners aren't able to make that judgment accurately.

With more advanced students, all these flaws can be addressed through atemi and henka waza, but most dojos frown on hitting and/or confusing beginners.

There are also a number of behaviors that are irritating in general, and even more so when demonstrated by junior students.

* Unsolicited advice, especially when that advice doesn't have much to do with what the recipient perceives as the problem or when the advice is seen as obvious, patronizing, or flat-out wrong.
* Taking ukemi in a way that renders the demonstrated technique impossible, whether through lack of understanding or deliberate obstructiveness.
(When these two manifest at the same time, it's especially annoying.)
* Preference for talking rather than training.
* Inflated opinion of one's own skill level.

I don't know you. I don't know which of these you are doing, but I've seen enough beginners to be pretty sure that you are doing at least some of them. Perhaps you could ask this person why he finds you so irritating? Or some of your dojo mates?

Generally speaking, there's a lot to be learned from training with people who you don't particularly like.

Katherine

Michael Hackett
02-15-2012, 06:15 PM
Often HOW you say something is more important that WHAT you say. You are a relatively new student, a junior student, and you sound young from your writing. That could be part of the problem you are experiencing in trying to communicate with this student.

I noted a comment you made in a recent reply and found it telling. You wrote to the effect that your sensei says that it is them and not you. That strongly suggests that others have concerns about you as well. If they have voiced their concerns with your sensei, perhaps you are the burr under their saddle. Perhaps a look in the mirror may solve your problem. I've never experienced a problem that I wasn't an active participant in.

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 09:12 PM
Often HOW you say something is more important that WHAT you say. You are a relatively new student, a junior student, and you sound young from your writing. That could be part of the problem you are experiencing in trying to communicate with this student.

I noted a comment you made in a recent reply and found it telling. You wrote to the effect that your sensei says that it is them and not you. That strongly suggests that others have concerns about you as well. If they have voiced their concerns with your sensei, perhaps you are the burr under their saddle. Perhaps a look in the mirror may solve your problem. I've never experienced a problem that I wasn't an active participant in.

Thank you for the advice. What I meant by that was, sensei has said it is their fault that they send me "out" instead of down; I have no control over it. It's been that way since I started. Sometimes I nearly run into the walls.

AikidoObsessed
02-15-2012, 09:59 PM
There are lots of ways in which a new student can be irritating, most of which have nothing to do with the student's rate of progress.

* Refusal/inability to give real attacks, thereby making real technique nearly impossible.
* Refusal/inability to maintain connection after the initial attack.
* Refusal/inability to acknowledge one's own vulnerability, which manifests as refusing to fall down even when one is clearly in danger.
* Lack of understanding of appropriate ukemi generally. For instance, sometimes disconnecting after the initial attack is the right thing to do, but most beginners aren't able to make that judgment accurately.

With more advanced students, all these flaws can be addressed through atemi and henka waza, but most dojos frown on hitting and/or confusing beginners.

There are also a number of behaviors that are irritating in general, and even more so when demonstrated by junior students.

* Unsolicited advice, especially when that advice doesn't have much to do with what the recipient perceives as the problem or when the advice is seen as obvious, patronizing, or flat-out wrong.
* Taking ukemi in a way that renders the demonstrated technique impossible, whether through lack of understanding or deliberate obstructiveness.
(When these two manifest at the same time, it's especially annoying.)
* Preference for talking rather than training.
* Inflated opinion of one's own skill level.

I don't know you. I don't know which of these you are doing, but I've seen enough beginners to be pretty sure that you are doing at least some of them. Perhaps you could ask this person why he finds you so irritating? Or some of your dojo mates?

Generally speaking, there's a lot to be learned from training with people who you don't particularly like.

Katherine

I agree; everyone you train with teaches you something new. Our dojo has a everyone-helps-everyone-else kind of policy, beginner or not. We all give each other feedback and advice. Thankfully, however, I just found out that this student is having trouble at college and is frustrated that he can't throw me. I'm just glad I know what's bothering him. :)

Thanks again.

Keith Larman
02-15-2012, 11:11 PM
I agree; everyone you train with teaches you something new. Our dojo has a everyone-helps-everyone-else kind of policy, beginner or not. We all give each other feedback and advice. Thankfully, however, I just found out that this student is having trouble at college and is frustrated that he can't throw me. I'm just glad I know what's bothering him. :)

Thanks again.

Okay, let me be blunt and that that I think one thing you appear to be missing is that there are multiple reasons why someone might not be able to throw you. Many of which are really more about piss-poor ukemi by a newbie student that no one wants to hurt. I've had newer students that I didn't finish throws on simply because they were too open, too vulnerable, and too busy fighting off what they thought was going on. When in fact a quick atemi to the face and a rousing throw that they wouldn't be able to handle was what was really called for. Or any number of other things that they likely wouldn't have been able to handle. So you smile, try again, and leave it to sensei to fix. If sensei doesn't, however, keep in mind that in my experience eventually someone will deliver that lesson whether you're ready or not.

Best of luck to you.

Eva Antonia
02-16-2012, 02:51 AM
Thank you for the advice. What I meant by that was, sensei has said it is their fault that they send me "out" instead of down; I have no control over it. It's been that way since I started. Sometimes I nearly run into the walls.

Hi,

I know this problem with centrifugal forces from my own experience. It occurred especially for irimi nage ura, where tori spins in a narrow circle and uke has to follow him in a larger circle, trying to get up and attack again in order to be taken down finally. I NEVER managed that as uke. I just shot off tangentially instead of following in the circle - until one day I was so fed up with always un-voluntarily destroying this technique that I asked the teacher where was the problem. He observed and then told me that I started following with the wrong foot, preventing thus myself to step into the circle. Ever since I understood that, irimi nage ura works, both when being uke and when being tori, because this explanation helped me also to understand sometimes the movements of my ukes.

When a technique "doesn't work", in many times there are errors on both sides.

Best regards,

Eva

Basia Halliop
02-16-2012, 10:43 AM
Thank you, Hanna! I appreciate the advice. I don't really feel bad about trying to help him, ONLY because my sensei has told us to help each other and give feedback. Otherwise, I wouldn't do it. I'm going to have to try it non-verbally, though, as you suggested. Thanks!

Even if it's basically encouraged in your dojo to give feedback you do still have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Feedback is meant to be helpful, after all, and if you can see from the way the person reacts that they aren't finding your feedback helpful and welcome, then I would say it's better either to try to give it differently, or simply just not to try to give feedback at that time with that person.

phitruong
02-16-2012, 12:16 PM
We all give each other feedback and advice.

Thanks again.

the thing about feedback and advice is one is often welcome, the other, not so much.

feedback: hey, i felt you pushing me out, is that where you want me to go?
advice: hey, i think you should push down instead of out.

feedback: would you please lighten up your grip? i bruise easily and i hate to go to work with bruises on my arms
advice: you shouldn't grip so hard because it makes your techniques less effective.

so take my advice on feedback and your life would get easier :D

Hanna B
02-18-2012, 06:11 PM
HELP! I'm being trolled on the web board!

Thanks again.