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Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 08:43 AM
Hi everyone I'm new to Aikido and Aikiweb so I thought I might make good use of my account.
One must consider that against, say a typical karatedoka's kicks do we have enough practice to defend against it. I know kick defence techniques exist but how often are they practiced at your Aikido dojo, not being 'essential' to Aikido training? Basically are they practiced enough?

mrlizard123
02-13-2012, 09:34 AM
Hi everyone I'm new to Aikido and Aikiweb so I thought I might make good use of my account.
One must consider that against, say a typical karatedoka's kicks do we have enough practice to defend against it. I know kick defence techniques exist but how often are they practiced at your Aikido dojo, not being 'essential' to Aikido training? Basically are they practiced enough?

Welcome to Aikiweb!

It seems this is a variation of a common question along the lines of if Aikido is appropriate for "real life" protection/self defence/fight/against another MA/etc.

These topics have been widely debated and I think that the answers are; Yes, No and Maybe - take your pick :D

The answer is specific to each person's specific training regime.

It's a divisive subject and has spawned a seemingly un-killable thread over here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333) along with quite a few others...

I'm of the opinion that whether something is "effective" or not is very much affected by the artist more than the art; so whether we can respond effectively to a karetka's kick is an individual question I think.

Janet Rosen
02-13-2012, 09:37 AM
Gee, real life and a karateka's kicks? Here in my town not too much street crime or bar brawls by skilled karateka but maybe your town is different?

mrlizard123
02-13-2012, 09:54 AM
Gee, real life and a karateka's kicks? Here in my town not too much street crime or bar brawls by skilled karateka but maybe your town is different?

Janet,

On the mean streets of Brighton kicks from Karateka are the least of ones troubles, there are far scarier things; I'm not sure about aikido in this scenario...

Rich

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2057/2381156892_393d50b587.jpg
and
http://www.pootergeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/lavenderbush.jpg

Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 09:59 AM
Thanks it is good to be here, very interesting especially the linguistic aspect: so much vocab!
Yes, that summises it really well for me. I think Aikido would be effective in such a scenario but only after much more practise and mastery than another martial art; the impression I have anyway. That is the beauty of it, I would like to train for such an instance, rarther than just in the dojo or dimensions of 'average' Aikido training. The merger of martial arts that went into its creation is the appeal and it is in the nature of the art to be pacifistic. The defence techniques apply to the person not the art, I would like to train for as many of the techniques as possible not just ones I would normally use in the dojo. As cliche as it can sound I would like as close to the O'sensei training which was less defined than a set syllabus of training.
I have certainly grasped the, the "one better than they other" dynamic ( a waste of time) and vying with the principles of Aikido, I think. I wanted to investigate if it was part of the average dojo training to counter kicks; there were so many techniques created by O'sensei. Are they done justice in the more modern Aikido I have begun to learn about, for instance, in the Yoshinkan Aikdio I am to study.
That being said it is all so new!

phitruong
02-13-2012, 10:01 AM
Janet,

On the mean streets of Brighton kicks from Karateka are the least of ones troubles, there are far scarier things; I'm not sure about aikido in this scenario...

Rich

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2057/2381156892_393d50b587.jpg

sure you can do aikido with this. just blend and be one with the pavement and extend ki in all directions. :D

Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 10:03 AM
I still stand by the fact the best thing to do when confronted in 'real life' is to run away; especially when it is an elephant!

Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 10:04 AM
Couldn't sound more inglorious, but true I think.

lbb
02-13-2012, 10:10 AM
The last time I was kicked by a karateka was when I was studying karate.

I did ask my sensei why we don't train against kicking techniques. The short answer was, because hardly anybody here has training in how to kick, and the ukemi's a bear. It could be done, but with most students the carnage potential is rather high. And, if you're talking about preparing from a "real life" attack...well, when was the last time you saw someone effectively use a kick as an attack in "real life"? It's not that kicking attacks can't be effective, but they take practice, something that the sort of knuckleheads who tend to get in fights are not about to do.

Patrick Hutchinson
02-13-2012, 10:40 AM
Elvish aiki vs elephant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=132WIdxvgdo
No problem

Demetrio Cereijo
02-13-2012, 10:40 AM
Forget about karate kicking techniques. Soccer kicks, well, that's another story.

And learn how to defend from "Combat Feng Shui (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZANOq5Kok4)", it seems there are very skilled practitioners of the ancient and effective art of moving furniture for combative purposes in your area.

Shadowfax
02-13-2012, 11:26 AM
The most realistic scenario on which you will have to use aikido to protect yourself on the street is tripping and falling. The best defense against cracks in a sidewalk jumping out and grabbing you is good ukemi. ;)

Not much concern around here about being attacked by a karateka around here either.

Another thought on aikido and pacifist behavior. One thing I have really gotten to understand is that aikido is not a passive art. Just because one does not seek out a fight does not mean that one is not capable of violence.

As sensei said in class last night. If you think that you are one of the meekest and mildest people on earth you probably need to do some serious self examination.

Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 01:22 PM
Well, the world has lots of knuckleheads. Our way of life is being globalised, martial arts aren't all good (why O'sensei tried to make Aikido as pacifistic as possible). Karate as an example is very popularised and despite vying against the principalties of martial arts like that of Karate there is always a risk of being assulted with any kind of attack: it isn't the fault of the art but its practiconars that can, can(cliche) use it for 'evil'. Stephen French is a well known example of this. Can the techniques in Aikido truly defend oneself against an experinced (having sparred) assulter? Yes of course, there is a way but is that way well known? Is there a name for the techniques of such?
Somewhat irrelevent: to reveal how nerdy I can be but heck the 'elephant' in the video is a Mumak/Oliphant/Mumakil.
-Massive Lord of the rings fan.

kewms
02-13-2012, 01:38 PM
Well, the world has lots of knuckleheads. Our way of life is being globalised, martial arts aren't all good (why O'sensei tried to make Aikido as pacifistic as possible).

This is twice that you've claimed aikido is a pacifistic art. Please explain why you believe this. In particular, please explain how *any* effective martial art can be pacifistic. If you truly believe that aikido is a pacifistic art, why are you studying it, and why are you concerned about real life applications?

Katherine

Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 02:06 PM
I am for peace and self development aiki-budo; as pacifistic as possible. The aim I have is to unify myself with the universe: ki, to gain a higher sense of self awareness without hurting people, it is not the aim in Aikido to hurt but defend unlike, say Muay Thai where it is to fight (in only some elements admitidly). :o

Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 02:08 PM
As for real life it is the application of a real life situation which gives a sense of purpose to study, not just in the Dojo but life as a whole, just my opinion.

Alic
02-13-2012, 02:15 PM
There is a simple thing to do if you want to do something like practice against real life karateka, judoka, kendoka, chinese kenpo, muay thai, etc...

Ask your sensei about self-defense class!

I did and we did a whole day of training against various street situations and against attacks from other martial arts. We learned how to kick and how to deal with kicks, as well as a short intro into battle tactics and maai. The energy level was intense as we were told to go on the fly using our own knowledge to create a defense, and many of us (myself too) were surprised at just how much we actually knew, since we don't usually ever get to do things like that.

Another way is to simply find a friend who is learning some other art, and ask to train with them. You can teach them reversals and they can teach you how to defend against punch, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, etc.

Don'tlookandsee
02-13-2012, 02:21 PM
That is a great idea, I have a friend that does Taekwondo so.

Alic
02-13-2012, 02:41 PM
Show him ukemi, best damn thing you can give to another martial artist :)

sakumeikan
02-13-2012, 02:43 PM
I am for peace and self development aiki-budo; as pacifistic as possible. The aim I have is to unify myself with the universe: ki, to gain a higher sense of self awareness without hurting people, it is not the aim in Aikido to hurt but defend unlike, say Muay Thai where it is to fight (in only some elements admitidly). :o

Dear Edward,
Your aims for,motives and reasons for taking up Aikido are all very altruistic.Very commendable,but what do you do if and when you meet somebody who is not on your waveband and simply wants to mess you about?Are you going to read him some Aikido philosophy, tell him about unifying with the Universe or what, or you do not want to hurt him?This in my opinion is a misunderstanding of Aikido principles.This pacifist mode is the reason why people perceive Aikido as being airy/fairy , men prancing around with skirts, twirling broom shanks.No , when faced with potential danger to myself and others,I would rather
be effective [hopefully ] than be spiritual /pacifist.If this means causing someone pain so be it.In my book the aggressor deserves what he gets. Maybe giving the bad lad a taste of his own medicine might make him think before he tries to mug /hurt somebody else? Cheers,Joe.

Marc Abrams
02-13-2012, 02:58 PM
Edward:

If your training involves sound (in other words, real) martial principles of movement, the kick can be handled very easily. I have heard the chorus saying that Aikido cannot work against a karateka, wrestler, BJJ, etc. . In many places, those criticisms are accurate. There are dojos in which the teachers and students have studied a number of martial arts and bring that experience to bear in their Aikido training and teaching. In general, those teachers and their students seem to do quite well applying Aikido. People get what they put into their training and can receive what their teachers can deliver. That means that in an imperfect world, filled with all of us flawed humans, you pick carefully, train hard and hope for the best...

In "real life", sh*t happens that you might never be prepared for, so the larger purpose is to use your training to create the safest, most caring environment that you can enjoy in the moment. Spending an inordinate amount of time worrying about the worst possible things that might happen to you is simply a waste of precious time, particularly when you consider that life is a fatal illness.....

Marc Abrams

Demetrio Cereijo
02-13-2012, 03:24 PM
"I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

phitruong
02-13-2012, 03:45 PM
One must consider that against, say a typical karatedoka's kicks do we have enough practice to defend against it. I know kick defence techniques exist but how often are they practiced at your Aikido dojo, not being 'essential' to Aikido training? Basically are they practiced enough?

first, do you know how to kick? if not, then go learn how to kick. after that then talk about doing kick defense.

kewms
02-13-2012, 03:51 PM
first, do you know how to kick? if not, then go learn how to kick. after that then talk about doing kick defense.

More generally, practice with people who are competent in the attack that you want to defend against. Actual experience beats speculation every time.

Katherine

Marc Abrams
02-13-2012, 04:07 PM
first, do you know how to kick? if not, then go learn how to kick. after that then talk about doing kick defense.

Hey Phi

Do you know how to defend against these kicks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gzfjBUtPeY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5CE8A9B98B8E71BA

:eek: :D :eek: :D

Marc Abrams

phitruong
02-13-2012, 04:39 PM
Actual experience beats speculation every time.

Katherine

i thought straight flush beats speculation every time. :)

phitruong
02-13-2012, 04:45 PM
Hey Phi

Do you know how to defend against these kicks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gzfjBUtPeY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5CE8A9B98B8E71BA

:eek: :D :eek: :D

Marc Abrams

i said kicks, Marc! those aren't kicks! those are freak of nature! damn birds!

of course i do know how to defend against those. first you get some oil in a squirt bottle. squirt the oil at various places on the floor. stand back and enjoy the show. don't forget to setup a camera for hours of entertainment later. :D

Marc Abrams
02-13-2012, 05:13 PM
i said kicks, Marc! those aren't kicks! those are freak of nature! damn birds!

of course i do know how to defend against those. first you get some oil in a squirt bottle. squirt the oil at various places on the floor. stand back and enjoy the show. don't forget to setup a camera for hours of entertainment later. :D

Funny but true story! Had a student who had done Take My Dough for quite some time. Wanted to see if Aikido would work against any attack. I told him to attack me any way he chose without telling me what he was going to do. He launched into one of those silly, flying side kicks. Waited until the last second and shifted to the side. Tapped him with an atemi on his side as he flew by me into a heap on the ground. Myself and the entire class (including the student) were doubled over on the floor laughing at what happened. Funny what you can learn if you pay enough money to those guys....

Marc Abrams

SeiserL
02-13-2012, 07:16 PM
Do you know how to defend against these kicks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gzfjBUtPeY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5CE8A9B98B8E71BA
Irimi straight up the centerline. LOL

Don'tlookandsee
02-14-2012, 05:22 AM
Well thanks for all the replies, all sound advice. :)

lbb
02-14-2012, 07:46 AM
More generally, practice with people who are competent in the attack that you want to defend against. Actual experience beats speculation every time.

Yes, and the bland assertion made by many aikidoka that kicks are easy to defend against needs to be qualified. IMO, the kicks that you're likely to actually encounter in a self-defense situation are easy to defend against, simply because not many people are competent kickers. To generalize that to saying, "Oh, it's easy to defend against a kick," and then go to someone who is actually proficient in one of the kicking styles and invite him/her to try and kick you, is a short trip to being sorry and sore.

Marc Abrams
02-14-2012, 08:17 AM
Yes, and the bland assertion made by many aikidoka that kicks are easy to defend against needs to be qualified. IMO, the kicks that you're likely to actually encounter in a self-defense situation are easy to defend against, simply because not many people are competent kickers. To generalize that to saying, "Oh, it's easy to defend against a kick," and then go to someone who is actually proficient in one of the kicking styles and invite him/her to try and kick you, is a short trip to being sorry and sore.

Mary:

I re-read all of the responses on this thread and I cannot find one single "bland assertion" regarding kicks. I would generalize your position and say the same regarding many attacks. How many video clips in Aikido do we see in which the attacker looks like a stiff from a cheap zombie movie? How many shomenuchis do we see with the free hand limp and dangling? How many yokomenuchis do we see where the arm is drawn away from center, off to one side before the strike is initiated? I doubt that you and I were ever taught to strike and kick like we commonly see done in many Aikido video clips.

I spend a lot of time teaching students how to attack properly (from a martial arts perspective). I also teach them how to attack like a good street fighter, or boxer, wrestler. If we are not able to practice safely with some degree of realism to the attacks, I fail to see how any of us can expect our practice to translate into the types of attacks that commonly occur outside of the dojo.

Marc Abrams

lbb
02-14-2012, 08:28 AM
Mary:

I re-read all of the responses on this thread and I cannot find one single "bland assertion" regarding kicks.

I don't recall saying that I was referring exclusively to this thread.

I would generalize your position and say the same regarding many attacks.

Sure. That being the case, I wonder why it's so common that aikidoka (or martial artists in other styles, for that matter) come up with glib responses to "how to handle a kick" like "Oh, just grab the leg." I don't see quite that degree of airy dismissal with other techniques -- but then, it may just be that it's more common that someone would have actually seen a competent punch than that they would have seen a competent kick.

I spend a lot of time teaching students how to attack properly (from a martial arts perspective). I also teach them how to attack like a good street fighter, or boxer, wrestler. If we are not able to practice safely with some degree of realism to the attacks, I fail to see how any of us can expect our practice to translate into the types of attacks that commonly occur outside of the dojo.

Right, but going back to the thread, I'm personally not worried about running into a competent kicker outside the dojo, so if the goal is self-defense, I'd put it as a low priority to train against.

Marc Abrams
02-14-2012, 08:53 AM
I don't recall saying that I was referring exclusively to this thread.

Sure. That being the case, I wonder why it's so common that aikidoka (or martial artists in other styles, for that matter) come up with glib responses to "how to handle a kick" like "Oh, just grab the leg." I don't see quite that degree of airy dismissal with other techniques -- but then, it may just be that it's more common that someone would have actually seen a competent punch than that they would have seen a competent kick.

Right, but going back to the thread, I'm personally not worried about running into a competent kicker outside the dojo, so if the goal is self-defense, I'd put it as a low priority to train against.

Mary:

I think that glib responses are compensatory acts to cover up for some level of awareness of inadequacies.

Looking at some good research into the nature of attacks, you are absolutely right regarding kicks. More so for women than men. Kicks tend to happen in open spaces, as opposed to the tight confines of a bar. Than being said, I think that it is important to incorporate some nature of kicks into any good self-defense training paradigms. It helps people to maintain a larger body awareness of an attacker. Tunnel vision is a typical process that occurs during an attack. Good training paradigms for the defender force the defender to not get caught up in that process.

This whole discussion goes back to an earlier post (I don't remember if it was this thread) in which I said that if you utilize your traditional martial arts training primarily for self-defense purposes, you are in for a surprise....

Marc Abrams

kewms
02-14-2012, 11:36 AM
Sure. That being the case, I wonder why it's so common that aikidoka (or martial artists in other styles, for that matter) come up with glib responses to "how to handle a kick" like "Oh, just grab the leg." I don't see quite that degree of airy dismissal with other techniques -- but then, it may just be that it's more common that someone would have actually seen a competent punch than that they would have seen a competent kick.

I think there's a difference between theoretical discussions online and actual training in the dojo. The theory of techniques against kicks is pretty much the same as the theory of techniques against strikes, except that the kick makes the attacker's balance more suspect. So, when someone asks about kicks in a forum like this, the response is to shrug and not be terribly concerned. Kicks are different, but they're not *hard*.

But yes, like anything else, of course one would want to test that theoretical analysis in actual training against competent kickers.

I've trained kicks with Saotome Sensei, and at both my current and previous dojos. There was even a hamni handachi front kick on my nidan test. (Which resulted in uke going down so hard that he still remembers it a few years later.) In my experience, the theoretical analysis holds up pretty well in practice.

Katherine

Kevin Leavitt
02-14-2012, 04:37 PM
You know in reality, I have dealt with very few kicks in the situations I have been in and the ones my comrades have been in. There is so much going on that feet are usually trying to keep balance and stand on. It is a fact of physics that when you are kicking you can't move. Not saying that you won't see kicks in a street situation, of course you might, but they really don't concern me too much. The only time I really see kicks is when too dudes square off in a "bar fight" and they are going through the exchange. In most fights it is a fight to control distance and mass, you really need your feet under you in order to do this.

Oh yeah, on the whole concept of "becoming one with the universe"...well we are already "one with the universe". the problem is many of us simply aren't aware that we are, or forget it.

For me it is not about becoming "one with the universe" but simply forming a better awareness of it. Not sure how martial arts really does that. It has made me aware of many of the issues surrounding why we lose sight of this, but I think there are better practices in eastern processes, methodologies for achieving this than most instructors, sensei, and shihans have the training, patiences and experience in guiding students in this area.

Alberto_Italiano
02-29-2012, 01:54 PM
Thanks it is good to be here, very interesting especially the linguistic aspect: so much vocab!
Yes, that summises it really well for me. I think Aikido would be effective in such a scenario but only after much more practise and mastery than another martial art; the impression I have anyway. That is the beauty of it, I would like to train for such an instance, rarther than just in the dojo or dimensions of 'average' Aikido training. The merger of martial arts that went into its creation is the appeal and it is in the nature of the art to be pacifistic. The defence techniques apply to the person not the art, I would like to train for as many of the techniques as possible not just ones I would normally use in the dojo. As cliche as it can sound I would like as close to the O'sensei training which was less defined than a set syllabus of training.


Edward, unfortunately you express a point of view that, although represented by a minority, is one of the most common raised in Aikido.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in Aikido that would prevent you from applying Aikido techniques in any setting of choice: the only thing that works against this, are Aikido dojos - not Aikido in itself.

Most dojos are not even prepared to admit that your type of request is less unfrequent than one may think, and certainly they are not ready to admit that they are not equipped to meet your necessity.

It is not clear, or however it is open to speculation, why most dojos are not inclined to let you practice in the way you outline here - arguably, since Aikido dojos want to maximize participation, this mere option already works against martiality.
It is true that any martial arts dojo wants to maximize participation - however the fact that aikido is not competitive (or at least that the vast majority of dojos do not practice a competitive aikido and hold no competitions) is what is responsible for its by now generalized trend of counter-martiality. And this is where one of the major differences with other martial arts comes squarely to the foreground: if you don't hold competitions, you have no incentive to produce martial victory (the highly speculative tendency to say that Aikido should not bear in mind concepts like "victory", or that "victory" may be interpreted in a whole array of speculative fashions, is just a coverup to conceal the nature of the true answer: Aikidokas are scared of aggressive ukes because normally dojos do not train you to face them), and if you don't have a victory in a martial contest as your goal, you will never see attacks determined to gain the upper hand. Seeing never such attacks, you will never be prepared to cope with them.

That's a long answer for a shorter one: find like minded folks, and train with them.