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fred veer
02-02-2012, 10:14 AM
I found this book on internet.


It seems to be a 1952 book describing what is called yamato ryu.

There is one technique described as aikinage (p12).

Some aspects seem like daito ryu.

Do any of the more knowledgable people on this forum if this has any relation to daito ryu ?

Ellis Amdur
02-02-2012, 12:58 PM
The translators misread the name. It is actually Daiwa-ryu. The author is also known as Sato Kinbei. He claimed myriads of menkyo kaiden. 14, if I recall. Among them is Daito-ryu. I forget who his teacher was. He also claimed a surfeit of certificates in Chinese martial arts. He made an amalgam of all he studied. Thsts his Daiwa.

Chris Covington
02-02-2012, 03:42 PM
Mr. Sato Kinbei was a student of Mr. Yamamoto Kakuyoshi, Takeda Sokaku sensei's last student. Mr. Yamamoto seems to have had a reputation of being very generous with densho and ranks and members of his lineage do the same. Another densho collector Mr. Tanemura Shoto of Genbukan ninja fame claims to hold a menkyo kaiden in Daito-ryu from this line (via Mr. Sato Kinbei I think). I'm not sure how you get a menkyo kaiden in an art when your teacher and your teacher's teacher never had one, but what do I know?

BTW anyone interested in purchasing... I mean earning a menkyo kaiden in Togakure-ryu ninjutsu just email me... :D

Scott Harrington
02-02-2012, 11:49 PM
I ran across "The Secret Teachings of Self Defense" some time ago. It is a nice document with some history. Some points to discuss perhaps.

The author claims to be the 19th successor of the Yagiu Shingan School and the 13th successor of the Yamato School. Now, Ueshiba did study Yagu Shingan ryu but did not advance very far. As to the name Yamato ryu, this is the "old" name of Daito ryu. (older style kanji pronunciation - somewhat)

Most of the technique are better line drawings (but less artistic) from the famous hand drawn "Budo Renshu" by Miss Takako Kunigoshi (1933) of which there have been recent reprints. One of it's titles was the "Secrets of Aikijujutsu".There is also a small amount of techniques reminiscent of Hakko ryu (a Daito ryu spin off).

The jo or hanbo (stick) work is supposed from the Taketa School by Mr. Ichi -- this I think is from the Takeda ryu spin off from Hakko ryu and other arts founded with a Oba (Ichio) Sachiyuki involved in its mid-20th century lineage.

The last has a section called "Kempo of Yamato School (another name Karate) and shows the form of Teranomidare. I started a look at Karate forms similar because the moves are ‘generic' Okinawan techniques strung together. Maybe a karateka will recognize it. There is however an aikikempo section of Daito ryu -- the late Yukiyoshi Sagawa printed a rare small flyer on this aspect of the art (looks like Daito ryu locks with some more punches & kicks thrown in.)

I contacted the Gardena Judo dojo, one of the oldest dojo in Southern California but all the old timers have passed away. Supposedly either the daughter of the author or the translator (I think that one) is still alive. The translator Tsuke Hagio was, at the time this was published, a godan in Kodokan Judo.

The Hawaii Karate Museum was the first to post this online and can be seen at http://museum.hikari.us/ (1950's) where they comment the karate is "based upon Kenwa Mabuni's Seipai No Kenkyu Goshinjutsu Hiden (October 25, 1934)."

This is freely available on the net and is a fine manual to own (now if people would only start doing some of the old Aikibudo stuff…..)

Scott Harrington

Ellis Amdur
02-03-2012, 12:34 AM
Scott - not to be nitpicky, but it's not Yamato - they choose to read those two kanji as called Daiwa-ryu, later Daiwado. Here's the website (http://www.jujutsu.com/jujutsu/htm/english.htm) of Sato Kinbei.

And here is Daiwado (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4EtVE7Kae4).

And here is some more (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeI9OaY3u2g)

Ellis Amdur

Scott Harrington
02-03-2012, 10:48 AM
Hey, Ellis nitpicky right back. The book in question uses the term Yamato, mainline Daito ryu has talked about the Yamato name, and while Takeda Sokaku may have been illiterate, Kotaro Yoshida with his private library wasn't.

The trouble in researching Japanese things is the Japanese language. I can read the US Constitution (1787) in D.C. with a little trouble with the S's and F's. A document from the 1920's gives a native Japanese speaker the willies. When I research Civil War military manuals (1860's), I may see words not commonly used today (a shame) but I can read it and understand it.

I brought in a turn of the century Jiu Jitsu manual (1900's) to class and all the native (NATIVE) speakers went crazy drawing characters on their palm trying to get the small details. And one of them had been a professional translator. When I look up terms to search I hate it when four variants pop up and then the old 'obsure' noun means a few more to find.

Name changes seem to be the trend for Daito ryu from Takeda himself to Ueshiba with different names and Aikibudo, etc. to Daiwado ryu to Hakko ryu to Takeda ryu to Hakko ryu to Aikido.Now it certainly makes things interesting, but why couldn't Musashi speak English? Then the "Book of Five Rings" wouldn't come thru the translator as the "Book of the Olympics." (true story)

Scott Harrington

ps. nice links - thanks, now I have to look up Daiwado.

Ellis Amdur
02-03-2012, 01:54 PM
Scott - Well, that's all very interesting but irrelevant. The point here is simple. Sato Kinbei created his own martial art. He used certain kanji and the reading HE chose for those kanji was Daiwa. (There are, allegedly, elements of Daito-ryu amongst the 20+ martial arts he claimed to be master of).

The translator who, to the best of my knowledge, chose the reading Yamato. That's fine, but incorrect, when applied to Sato Kinbei's martial art. If you go to Sato's dojo and ask to study Yamato-ryu, you'll be told, "we don't teach anything by that name."

Ellis Amdur

Scott Harrington
02-15-2014, 04:00 PM
Irrelevant right back at you.

I love to train and I love to do research (even though I do not speak Japanese). While Sato Kinbei may call his art Daiwa (a variant translation of Yamate), one of his main instructors (he also studied some Hakko ryu I heard) was Oba Ichio.

Oba Ichio taught under the name Takeda ryu and Sato Kinbei studied under him but never received complete transmission of the ryu. There was no Daiwa at that time, being a name recreation of Sato Kinbei.

You ask, Scott, how do you know that? Well, I have a copy of a Shodan certificate for a westerner who studied in the early 1950's DIRECTLY under Oba Ichio. No Yamato but also no DAIWA.

Now researchers have debated who Oba Ichio studied under but that is another matter. I have a lineage chart somewhere I'll look up.

And Oba is mentioned by the author of "The Secret Teachings of Self Defense", not Sato.
Scott Harrington