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graham christian
01-30-2012, 09:08 AM
There's one term used that I have always been miffed by. Cooperative training.

It seems to me like a term that sneaked in the back door and became a colloquialism. The use for which is, well I don't know, I don't see any use at all.

Rather than use to describe or differentiate between types of training if I was asked about it by some inquiring mind I would say all training is 100% cooperative or else it is not good training.

Based on this I would then go on to say that nearly all injuries and faults come from the avoidance of this fact.

Thus this also means to me that there is and cannot be such a thing as uncooperative training for with uncooperation there is no training.

This I see as true in all sports, all arts, across the board.

All sports and all arts have rules. You agree to those rules and thus 100% cooperation is in play. People within those sports who break the rules are called cheats or otherwise everytime it happens it's called a foul.

The same goes for training. I have never seen any training where people didn't agree to what they were going to practice. Those who can't agree then don't practice, therefore no practice.

So we have rules and we have agreement. When agreed to 100% then we have a game, a go ahead, something to do together.

In AIkido there are different styles and even different ways practiced by different dojos. Each has their set of rules and principles and techniques etc. Thus the rules of their game is set up. Those that agree 100% then train accordingly.

No cooperation, no together, no anything.

Within this framework of training there would be of course a gradient of increased difficulty. Once again 100% agreed upon and indeed expected. Still no change in the fact of complete cooperation within that framework.

A shihan stands up and tells five students to attack at will how they want. The students know him, know that's within the rules, know he is capable. He in turn knows they will do so. We have 100% cooperation once again and hopefully a good demo.

Uncooperation in training therefore to me is a myth.

Anyone being uncooperative therefore shouldn't be there.

Food for thought?

Regards.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-30-2012, 09:18 AM
I usually prefer the term "aliveness" as used here (http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html).

chillzATL
01-30-2012, 10:04 AM
I usually prefer the term "aliveness" as used here (http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html).

Being that this is an aikido forum, how much aliveness can you get in aikido training before it ceases to be aikido? The form in which it is practiced and has been practiced since the beginning seems to only leave room for so much aliveness in the training. There will be this constant debate in the aikido world about movement practice vs. fighting practice. IMO it's a hard case to make that aikido was ever intended to be fighting practice. Though I think there's plenty of room to stretch in that direction within the boundries of the practice as we know it. You can only go so far before it ceases to be what it is. Thoughts?

David Yap
01-30-2012, 10:08 AM
...then, when do we begin to train sensitivity and response or sensitivity and appropriate response cause the root of all training, yes even for the pacifists, starts from fear. Not from the fear of getting injured or killed but the fear of incompetency when protecting our loved ones are concerned.

FWIW.

David Y

Demetrio Cereijo
01-30-2012, 10:33 AM
Being that this is an aikido forum, how much aliveness can you get in aikido training before it ceases to be aikido?

Considering statements of Aikido greats like Mochizuki Minoru (see Black Belt magazine, August 1989 issue, p 34-35), Saito Morihiro (see Traditional Aikido Vol 5, p 39-40.) or the randori method developed by Tomiki Kenji, I'd say a lot.

chillzATL
01-30-2012, 10:55 AM
Considering statements of Aikido greats like Mochizuki Minoru (see Black Belt magazine, August 1989 issue, p 34-35), Saito Morihiro (see Traditional Aikido Vol 5, p 39-40.) or the randori method developed by Tomiki Kenji, I'd say a lot.

I will look those up as best I can, but a lot?

statements aside, Saito's mode of training sure doesn't seem any more alive than anyone elses.

Ueshiba was critical of what Tomiki was doing and didn't seem to approve. Do we still call it aikido or is it judo with some aikido techniques thrown in?

I'd like to get someone like David Orange's opinion, as he trained with Mochizuki sensei and is more familiar with that than most of us. I've seen quite a few vids of Yoseikan and at the point where the aliveness comes into play it seems to veer off pretty sharply from what aikido training is and seemingly, was.

This is why I started the "testing (skill) aikido" thread in the general forum, feel free to offer your thoughts there as well.

kewms
01-30-2012, 11:23 AM
Ueshiba was critical of what Tomiki was doing and didn't seem to approve. Do we still call it aikido or is it judo with some aikido techniques thrown in?

IIRC, Ueshiba told Tomiki to call his art "aikido."

Katherine

kewms
01-30-2012, 11:24 AM
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."

Katherine

Demetrio Cereijo
01-30-2012, 11:34 AM
I will look those up as best I can, but a lot?

Well, I can provide some links to make it easier:

Mochizuki mentioning freestyle weapons sparring and sumo style wrestling with the founder (http://books.google.es/books?id=SdYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA34&dq=mochizuki&hl=es&sa=X&ei=adAmT528MoK40QW2vInPCg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=freestyle%20sumo&f=false)

The relevant pages of Saito's "Traditional Aikido" as attachements. See (5) freewheeling training.

Ueshiba was critical of what Tomiki was doing and didn't seem to approve.
Morihei or Kisshomaru?

Do we still call it aikido or is it judo with some aikido techniques thrown in?
It looks aikido to me. There are around some practitioners of that lineage who could ellaborate better about if it is "judo with some aikido techniques thrown in"

I'd like to get someone like David Orange's opinion
Me too, of course. I think he's the interviewer in the BB article I linked.

This is why I started the "testing (skill) aikido" thread in the general forum, feel free to offer your thoughts there as well.
I'll take a look.

NathanMishler
01-30-2012, 11:46 AM
If I may, what has been meant by people like David Orange and Dan Harden when they say "uncooperative training" is this: it is training where the uke does not collude to make nage's technique work at all costs. The uke presents a "real" attacker (for various values of 'real') and does not throw their center out of alignment when they attack. They attack like someone that knows how to attack!

That's it, that's all.

chillzATL
01-30-2012, 12:36 PM
Morihei or Kisshomaru?

.

Excellent, thanks for the links and attachments.

It was definitely Morihei, though I know that Kisshomaru did not agree with what Tomiki was doing either. Unfortunately I don't recall the exact source, but it went something along the lines that O'sensei was always concerned with what Tomiki was doing and felt he had somehow strayed from the path of aiki. I want to say it was Shioda, but I'm not 100% on that and it may have been a recounting of his visit to him on his deathbed.

The Saito stuff really sounds like what David Orange described as some of their randori. Not completely open, no holds barred, but certainly more alive than the typical kata uke/nage model or even jiyu waza.

thanks again!

DH
01-30-2012, 03:26 PM
100% cooperative training is a disaster.
Always has been
Always will be
It will always fail.
It isn't budo
It isn't Martial arts
It has no place in a discussion of Budo or in Martial arts
It is something else.

What possible value is this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmp1jqcSy3g&feature=player_embedded) to Budo?
What does it have to do with weapons?
What does it have to do to defending against a weapon?
If it is a budo why not get a swordsman to cut with a bokken like they use in real budo?
Since it is not an attack, since it is not therefore a defense against an attack.... what is it, on the earth?

Can someone explain to me how this relates to any budo practice that they recognize? How does this 100% cooperative training relate to any budo anyone, anywhere, recognizes as a Budo?

Budo is taught in degrees of cooperation that gradually increase in resistence. Otherwise you are not doing a budo. But that's okay too. Just don't confuse the two.
Dan

phitruong
01-30-2012, 03:51 PM
What possible value is this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmp1jqcSy3g&feature=player_embedded) to Budo?

Dan

nice pink striped hakama and designer gi. wonder where i can get those. need some purple running lights and smoke machine and we are all set. :)

DH
01-30-2012, 04:13 PM
nice pink striped hakama and designer gi. wonder where i can get those. need some purple running lights and smoke machine and we are all set. :)
I have no idea of what that it is, but I would peg it as 100% cooperative in a way I have never seen. I would love to see someone explain it's worth as a budo.
Dan

Janet Rosen
01-30-2012, 04:17 PM
What possible value is this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmp1jqcSy3g&feature=player_embedded) to Budo?
What does it have to do with weapons?
What does it have to do to defending against a weapon?
If it is a budo why not get a swordsman to cut with a bokken like they use in real budo?
Since it is not an attack, since it is not therefore a defense against an attack.... what is it, on the earth?
Nope
not budo
was going to call it dance....but not very good dancing either

Ernesto Lemke
01-30-2012, 04:21 PM
Dan, how on earth did you find this anyway? It's so :yuck: and :hypno: that makes me go :freaky: and mostly leaves me :confused: :confused: :confused:
Now back to the topic....

phitruong
01-30-2012, 04:26 PM
I have no idea of what that it is, but I would peg it as 100% cooperative in a way I have never seen. I would love to see someone explain it's worth as a budo.
Dan

that's because you are a barbarian, like many of us Neanderthals. we just aren't refine enough to understand the peace and harmony of such thing. be honest, you really want to be in there and dance away and be happy, right? :D

Mark Freeman
01-30-2012, 04:32 PM
Once again it may seem that Dan and Graham are at either end of the paradoxical stick! One says that 100% co-operative training is all wrong and the other says all training is 100% co-operative.

I think they both have it right, I'll leave it at that.

regards

Mark

Marc Abrams
01-30-2012, 04:52 PM
Once again it may seem that Dan and Graham are at either end of the paradoxical stick! One says that 100% co-operative training is all wrong and the other says all training is 100% co-operative.

I think they both have it right, I'll leave it at that.

regards

Mark

Mark:

They certainly don't see eye to eye on many things.... I think that Demetrio added an important distinction, in terms of "aliveness."

Grahams original post simply made no sense to me and mixed up two very different things and then tried to treat them as the same thing. Cooperative practice is very different than people agreeing to abide by rules. You can agree to rules and practice within them with the very real possibility of people being hurt and injured, WHILE abiding by the rules. In an MMA contest, full-contact kumite, etc., people are anything but cooperative with one another while following the rules, while people frequently get injured, while no one committed a foul. How Graham connected that to 100% cooperative training, is a logic all onto itself.

We can talk about the various levels of aliveness and look at the benefits of training a various levels of aliveness and have a very interesting discussion. Linking 100% cooperative training to following rules of contests was going to go nowhere because of faulty logic.

Hope to see you in New York soon!

Marc Abrams

Mark Freeman
01-30-2012, 05:16 PM
Mark:

They certainly don't see eye to eye on many things.... I think that Demetrio added an important distinction, in terms of "aliveness."

Grahams original post simply made no sense to me and mixed up two very different things and then tried to treat them as the same thing. Cooperative practice is very different than people agreeing to abide by rules. You can agree to rules and practice within them with the very real possibility of people being hurt and injured, WHILE abiding by the rules. In an MMA contest, full-contact kumite, etc., people are anything but cooperative with one another while following the rules, while people frequently get injured, while no one committed a foul. How Graham connected that to 100% cooperative training, is a logic all onto itself.

We can talk about the various levels of aliveness and look at the benefits of training a various levels of aliveness and have a very interesting discussion. Linking 100% cooperative training to following rules of contests was going to go nowhere because of faulty logic.

Hi Mark

I agree with Graham that all 'training' is co-operative, however 'contest' is an entirely different thing.

I agree with Dan that complete co-operation where no 'reality' is involved is pretty worthless from a budo point of view. I mean, how can one practice non-resistance if there is no resistance to be non-resistant with?

I still think they are often closer to each other than their words appear.

I too like the term aliveness, but that in itself is a hard term to quantify, like all other nominalisations, they can mean different things to different people.

Hope to see you in New York soon!

I'm working on it. I am looking forward to getting things finalised at this end. I look forward to meeting and doing rather than talking about it:)

regards,

Mark

graham christian
01-30-2012, 05:18 PM
Once again it may seem that Dan and Graham are at either end of the paradoxical stick! One says that 100% co-operative training is all wrong and the other says all training is 100% co-operative.

I think they both have it right, I'll leave it at that.

regards

Mark

In this case I don't think so. Of course one must read the o/p properly.

Nathan hit the nail on the head. Co-operative training as I defined stands far apart from what Dan shows as an example.

I call that collusive training.

Now, collusive training is another subject altogether.

Regards.G.

Brian Beach
01-30-2012, 05:34 PM
I have no idea of what that it is, but I would peg it as 100% cooperative in a way I have never seen. I would love to see someone explain it's worth as a budo.
Dan

I am in the camp of increasing resistance, and no way an advocate of what they are doing but...It seems to me to be uke training rather than waza training. Learning how to be sticky. That's what I got out of watching it. That being said, I can't understand what he's saying so... :rolleyes:

Mark Freeman
01-30-2012, 05:34 PM
In this case I don't think so. Of course one must read the o/p properly.

Hi Graham,

I think my clarification in reply to Marc, shows that I read correctly.

Nathan hit the nail on the head.

if not completely, pretty close:)

Co-operative training as I defined stands far apart from what Dan shows as an example.

I call that collusive training.

Now, collusive training is another subject altogether.

Regards.G.

I agree - another thread Graham? ;)

regards,

Mark

graham christian
01-30-2012, 05:48 PM
Hi Graham,

I think my clarification in reply to Marc, shows that I read correctly.

if not completely, pretty close:)

I agree - another thread Graham? ;)

regards,

Mark

No, I don't think so. However on that subject of collusive there is one part of training which is very collusive, a drill if you like, which is very good for improving a skill which if seen by someone on the outside would look quite strange and 'vaguely' similar to that video. So I wouldn't be 100% certain as to say that video has no budo value, even though it looks so.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
01-30-2012, 06:02 PM
A video is just moment of training. It does not encompass everything about a system. I am sure we all have moments in our classes if caught on video would not represent all that we teach. I am not sure what the principle was that was in that video but the movement was beautiful.

graham christian
01-30-2012, 06:38 PM
A video is just moment of training. It does not encompass everything about a system. I am sure we all have moments in our classes if caught on video would not represent all that we teach. I am not sure what the principle was that was in that video but the movement was beautiful.

I agree Mary. I too don't like jumping to conclusions for the only way to know what's being shown or done there is to ask the people doing it.

There is a drill I do which I was taught that I referred to above.

In this drill a person holds out their hand inviting someone to come and grab their wrist. Their job is then to move in such a way that the other doesn't quite reach it but always feels they can so keeps trying. It's a drill on leading. Physically this would mean the offered 'wrist' is somehow always about two inches away.

The rules given to the uke are these: If you feel you can get the wrist then carry on. If you feel you can't then stop. If you get the wrist then stop also.

Thus the drill ends either with a stop or nage leading uke into a technique, which by the way has to be done at the same speed also.

Thus the speed of attack can then be increased and the drill repeated ad infinitum.

Versions of this drill would look similar, done slowly, to the video shown.

Regards.G.

Kevin Leavitt
01-30-2012, 06:41 PM
Not buying the "because it has rules it is cooperative" logic. A judo player trying to throw his opponent is a good example. yeah while there are rules such as you can't kick or punch and you must engage....the guy getting thrown is not cooperating in the least with his opponent. He is trying his best not to get thrown. Alas, he might get thrown in a textbook perfect throw. Did it require cooperation for that throw to happen? Not really.

Now lets look at how it is sometimes practiced in some aikido dojos where uke "gives" nage his center in order to allow nage to practice a throw. Cooperative.

Not saying that in practice that cooperation is not necessary. Absolutely it is. There are varying degrees of resistance that are given or not given in order to allow a person to practice certain aspects.

However, those control measures must be completely understood AND removed ....yes...that is key REMOVED to create a problem set that is ALIVE for nage if he ever expects to actually be able to do anything for real.

graham christian
01-30-2012, 06:55 PM
Not buying the "because it has rules it is cooperative" logic. A judo player trying to throw his opponent is a good example. yeah while there are rules such as you can't kick or punch and you must engage....the guy getting thrown is not cooperating in the least with his opponent. He is trying his best not to get thrown. Alas, he might get thrown in a textbook perfect throw. Did it require cooperation for that throw to happen? Not really.

Now lets look at how it is sometimes practiced in some aikido dojos where uke "gives" nage his center in order to allow nage to practice a throw. Cooperative.

Not saying that in practice that cooperation is not necessary. Absolutely it is. There are varying degrees of resistance that are given or not given in order to allow a person to practice certain aspects.

However, those control measures must be completely understood AND removed ....yes...that is key REMOVED to create a problem set that is ALIVE for nage if he ever expects to actually be able to do anything for real.

Hi Kevin. In the judo they do 100% agree to the rules of judo thus cooperation.

In the giving your center to example I would call that collusive. Collusive in that respect therefore I don't find very helpful at all. Wrong purpose.

So I would say it's not different to what you are saying, just semantics.

Regards.G.

DH
01-30-2012, 06:57 PM
A video is just moment of training. It does not encompass everything about a system. I am sure we all have moments in our classes if caught on video would not represent all that we teach. I am not sure what the principle was that was in that video but the movement was beautiful.

How are these different?
this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4ZRLYofug&feature=player_embedded)
this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiRfJppQJcQ)
or
this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7XYUrxa7BE&feature=relmfu)
Define it.

Movement ...for the sake of movement is fine by me. Although form that follows function is compelling on its own. But movement without actual attacks and meaningful defenses is simply not budo.
And it never will be.
These debates did not occur for long in the history of budo. People who advocated poorly formed ideas in a culture of trained warriors...did not make it home. And their ideas died with them.
Today people enjoy the luxury of avoidance. Of never being truly tested. Put most martial "artists"...cough.. back in time a few hundred years and you would not have to worry about ever hearing their theories again.
And that's it and that's all.
Dan

DH
01-30-2012, 07:05 PM
From another thread:
To strain a point only to demonstrate an extreme:
1. Cooperative training like the type in these videos will never produce an excellent cage fighter, agreed?
2. Yet there is cooperative training in MMA as well. Drills are used as a first step in training before the advanced stress training (win/lose) takes place to fine tune and improve skills.
So now it is just a measure of discussing degrees of what cooperative training can and cannot do. And whether or not you want to be in a budo that cant stop violence or not.
People need to be self aware of their choices, otherwise as a teacher you ay contribute to your students getting seriously hurt were they to rely on your bad advice and poor training.

Were someone trained to fight force-on-force to face someone who only trained cooperatively? I will bet on the force-on-force guy everytime.
Why? The training to win model is superior in producing results in budo.
Dan

DH
01-30-2012, 07:06 PM
I'm not playing the semantics game. It's a dodge. Everyone knows what we are talking about.
What degree of alive? What do define as cooperative? What do you mean cooperative, what if it's a little cooperative? Who decides the rules.....
Invite them out with some 4oz gloves, and you would never have to worry about their theories anymore.
The whole thing is a massive exercise to validate an obviously palid and weak practice based on total cooperation. That's bad enough, but often these people want equal standing with the people who sweated and bled for hard won skills these pretenders can never touch otherwise.
Dan

Mary Eastland
01-30-2012, 08:20 PM
It may be movement for the sake of teaching a principle. Do you, Dan, teach principles as they relate to let's say, shiho nage or nikkyo or kokyu nage....sometimes movement or another unconventional idea can teach about something martial.

Feeling one's center when static is different than doing a technique in motion. How would IP relate to techniques during randori?

Everyone can have equal standing...no one really gets to decide who can speak and who cannot.

DH
01-30-2012, 09:23 PM
It may be movement for the sake of teaching a principle. Do you, Dan, teach principles as they relate to let's say, shiho nage or nikkyo or kokyu nage...
None of those movements were related to the effective execution of anything they were doing. Which if you watch was stridently obvous. In fact I would assess them as highly inefficient to the task at hand. I saw no aiki and no centered movement.

sometimes movement or another unconventional idea can teach about something martial.
I think martial movement and principles do a better job of teaching martial movement and principles. For most...at the very least it would mark a good beginning for them. It will fix a host of problems in how they move, react, feel and affect their uke.

Feeling one's center when static is different than doing a technique in motion.
No it isn't, not if you know what you're doing. Everything is the same start to finish and it fixes all of the problems of folks who are desperately trying to move from center...and don't know how.
No one likes to be told they don't know what they are doing, but I have never bought into the kumbaya, I'm okay, your okay idea of budo or music or anything else.
With fighting and knowledge of Budo inside budo:
With the vast majority of people in budo it's a measure of degrees of effectivenss and approaches and expertise. But there are also people who obviously are learning and just do not know what they are doing. Period.

How would IP relate to techniques during randori?
How and where does it not?
IP is the source of aiki. You do not move without it.
The first and foremost effect it has....is....aiki.
Let's see for ideals and goals in deliverables?
As opposed to ukemi and cooperatvie play how about they don't want to cooperate and yet...
Your opponent is stuck to you and moves when you move. My favorite comment I have heard people yell in frustration as I am stuck to them like a wet blanket. "Get off me!!!"
You move without telegraphing-they cannot feel you moving or see you moving till it is typically too late.
You project
plant
absorb
Their actions are nullified
They can't get force into you to do anything to you
You don't need to move much to move them
You weight them with crushing force that is not dedicated and they cannot get you
When they push to pull and pull to push you look at em as it is disolved and then you play them and they have trouble stopping you
When they try to wrap your legs and sweep you nothing happens and you typcially throw them or they get the hell out of the way
When they hit you on most of your body you don't care
Your atemi does what Ueshiba said it is supposed to do...it is deadly.
Your punches punch through their blocks and hurt their arms
Your stick collapses their defense and beats the crap out of them
With weapons you cut through them, you cancel them out...you cut wth tremendous power without a lot of energy, your are much faster.
Thats off the top of my head.

There are a couple hundred people here from san dan to Shihan who have seen me do all of the above in open rooms also with MMA and FMA and Chinese ICMA master level people... that I am writing this in full view of. If anyone would like to contradict me... Let's hear it.


I separated your two statements as they are not related
Everyone can have equal standing...
No Mary, No they can't
You are not equal to me in standing for martial skills, Internal power, aiki, fighting, and weapons use.
I am not equal to Rickson Gracie in ability in BJJ, fighting experience and good looks.
Sorry, Mary it's just the way it is.
You can't have equal standing to everyone without doing the work to at least try and everyone will fail and find their pace. Not knowing your place is what gets the little entitlement junkies into trouble when they demand equality with people with real talent and skills. There are truly expectional genius's in the world and also kids who should be left back to repeat till they get it right.
I liked my mechanic over the guy down the street from him.He actually fixed cars for less money. The other guy went out of business.

2. no one really gets to decide who can speak and who cannot.
Where? Here? Where does anyone not have a right to speak?
The beauty of the internet is everyone gets to be heard. And then everyone gets to hear what you say.
It doesn't always go so well for everyone.
The day little Billy with six months into TKD tells Ueshiro he doesn't understand Karate....
Or little tommy with his twirly sword is equal to Yagyu Soke.....
And we have to call their opinions equal, has not arrived yet.
It's coming though.
Dan

Mary Eastland
01-30-2012, 10:00 PM
Every one can speak. I can decide what Aikido means to me. For me there is no contest. You can talk about tearing folks apart....I am more interested in resolving conflict and being peaceful.

Dan, you really don't understand Aikido as I practice it...that is okay...try to be more tolerant of what you don't understand...It won't make you weak.

You can't judge how I feel by other people you have met. We will probably never meet on the mat because our ideas are so different and you can't meet with people unless you are teaching. I understand about that.

AikiWeb is a small part of the Aikido world. It seems as if the majority of people that train in traditional Aikido have gone silent but that doesn't mean they have disappeared.

Trying to discuss this with you is like trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. You keep saying the same thing. The thing seems to be "I am the way and the light and future of an art I don't even train in."
People with nothing to fear can see through all that. We don't need saving.

phitruong
01-30-2012, 10:21 PM
People with nothing to fear can see through all that. We don't need saving.

we do, but not by dan. he's just one person. he and others like him were a catalyst. they gave us ideas and shown us, some of us, what we thought were not possible possible. in the end, we carry the day, not dan, not those like him. we do need saving, from ourselves.

DH
01-30-2012, 10:27 PM
Every one can speak. I can decide what Aikido means to me. For me there is no contest.
Well I don't know how many times we keep going over this, and I say the same ol things
Here we go
1. "Everyone can do whatever they want as their practice and should be let alone."
2. "The only time it draws fire is when they talk about it being martially effective."

You can talk about tearing folks apart....I am more interested in resolving conflict and being peaceful. Dan, you really don't understand Aikido as I practice it...that is okay...try to be more tolerant of what you don't understand...It won't make you weak.
I should be tolerant? Seriously? You.... are saying that to me?
Other quotes you seem to slip right past
"There is nothing wrong with cooperative aikido. I know some seriously capable people who came to aikido for that. They enjoy what it has done for them and they love catching air."
Look them up. Would you like me to paste them as a signature so you can be reminded?

Again, the only time we discuss things is over martial effectveness. If you want to tell us that your type of practice produces capable fighters you are going to get called on it. Other than that. Have a ball, God bless. I am happy for you.
But why is that okay and I am not, Mary?

You can't judge how I feel by other people you have met. We will probably never meet on the mat because our ideas are so different and you can't meet with people unless you are teaching. I understand about that. AikiWeb is a small part of the Aikido world. It seems as if the majority of people that train in traditional Aikido have gone silent but that doesn't mean they have disappeared.

Trying to discuss this with you is like trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. You keep saying the same thing. The thing seems to be "I am the way and the light and future of an art I don't even train in."
People with nothing to fear can see through all that. We don't need saving.
Well that's not accurate and the spirit of it is negative.
I have said over and over that this is throughout Asia and for our discussion it is the source of Ueshiba's skills. Here now wait. You probably didnt hear did ya? The source of this stuff is Ueshibas art. Apparently you have not read that either.
I also said that the aikido teachers I am with are going to be the ones to bring this into aikido and not me. I have an exit plan.
Didn't read me saying that umpteen times either?

For someone who claims to have read what I write you seem to selectively read. Why is that?
You also asked me a series of questions, and this was what I got.
Okay then.
Dan

DH
01-30-2012, 10:42 PM
Mary
It appears to me from a never ending stream of debates before I ever started posting here that many in what you called traditional Aikido do not consider your type of practice...theirs.. of course others do. Not my business
And that seems to be the source of the never ending"Is aikido effective debates. Look at the recent ones. The majority of which I stay out of.

Having met and trained with teachers from around the world I would have to say that most of them are not fans of overcooperative practice. In fact it seems they hate it. They go on and on about it in no uncertain terms. That seems to be echoed here with many teachers who debate with you and Graham. Read the recent posts for an examples.
I think you are conveniently expressing your feelings about that with me as a focus.

My goals are Aikido getting back to Ueshiba's aiki. I think you and Ron are good people and I wish you well.
Dan

Mary Eastland
01-30-2012, 10:46 PM
I think it is because you are posting in the Aikido section. I can understand if it was in the other martial arts section but to me (and I could be wrong) when we post up here it is implied we are talking about Aikido. I do get confused by that.

I am not trying to be difficult or sarcastic. I am really discussing.

It could also be that I am up too late. I better hit the hay. Have a nice dream

DH
01-30-2012, 10:50 PM
Well
Since I put my time in and sweated and even got damaged and I am an Aikido-ka and I am teaching Aikido teachers, and it is all about teaching Ueshiba's aiki and the things he wrote and did in Aikido...it seems pretty obvious to me. Think of it this way, I just left and came back.
Dan

Chris Li
01-30-2012, 11:07 PM
I think it is because you are posting in the Aikido section. I can understand if it was in the other martial arts section but to me (and I could be wrong) when we post up here it is implied we are talking about Aikido. I do get confused by that.

I am not trying to be difficult or sarcastic. I am really discussing.

It could also be that I am up too late. I better hit the hay. Have a nice dream

I see that Dan answered for himself, but why would you think that we weren't talking about Aikido? How can discussing Aiki, and optimal training methods for Aiki, not be related to Aikido?

Also, I'm not sure what you're considering "traditional" Aikido - I've heard Yoshinkan people apply that label to themselves - also Iwama folks and some folks under Shirata - Aikikai hombu even.

You appear to be independent from an organization that was split from an organization which was in itself a split from the "traditional" branch. How is that more "traditional" than anybody else? Tohei himself said that quite a lot (most) of what he was doing was of his own innovation...

Best,

Chris

DH
01-30-2012, 11:22 PM
Well there is a bit of a back lash isn't there? I do keep track of what people say.
Some folks have written in with the same comments of feeling they are being silenced, pressured, pushed out.. The comments on the feeling of being silenced seems to occur most often from Mary Malmros and Mary Eastland. It happen several times in the last few days. Also some comment about "we have a right to speak and everyone is equal."
So if you note the push back to me is that I shouldn't be here and have no right to talk in the Aikido section.
Make more sense?
Kind of weird though...
I am Aikido-ka
Talking about Aikido
And Aikido teachers and Shihan come to train Aiki with me and I can't discuss aikido knowledgably?
Hmm...

Dan

akiy
01-30-2012, 11:27 PM
Hi folks,

Can you please steer away from discussing each other and steer towards discussing the topic?

Thank you,

-- Jun

bob_stra
01-31-2012, 02:40 AM
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."

Katherine

Alice:
It would be so nice if something made sense for a change.

The Duchess:
Tut, tut, child! Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it.

:freaky:

Cliff Judge
01-31-2012, 07:27 AM
Nathan hit the nail on the head. Co-operative training as I defined stands far apart from what Dan shows as an example.

I call that collusive training.
.

I was just thinking about this the other day, the difference between cooperative and collusive training.

Most training is cooperative - I really don't see how skills can be developed or imparted without cooperation at some point, whether it is direct teacher-t-student contact, or a training overseen by a teacher.

Kata-based training is certainly cooperative. Even if the kata involves a full-power attack.

Resistance can be cooperative. Progressive resistance is obviously cooperative, but full-power resistance can also be cooperative if the technique is designed to overcome full resistance, such as some jujutsu I have seen, and I believe Iwama training goes through cycles like that.

Kali / escrima flow drills are cooperative...even if one side is trying to do "outpace" the other such that they can get a cut in. Western boxing training using focus mits and striking pads and such is also cooperative.

I think it is fair to say that a "contest" element of training, such as judo randori, rolling, or free sparring, is not entirely cooperative. But IMO you don't see that as more than a component of training....even in BJJ they practice technique. They may not want to admit that they train cooperatively but they do.

Collusion is not the same thing as cooperation....collusion, I would define as when someone tanks in a surprising or unexpected fashion during training. Particularly if it leads nage to believe they did the throw. That's what gives the whole concept of cooperation a bad name - the idea that it might actually delude or ruin the training of the thrower by making them feel that they can do things that they cannot. This is the root of the old outsider view of Aikido as pointless. But I've never really experienced it personally. (I think the collusion between the instructor and his or her uke as they are demonstrating a technique is a slightly different category of thing....since that would be about allowing the teacher to show something, and not to improve the teacher's skills.)

What I have experienced in Aikido is a real problem....there is an encouragement in my style and some others to do the "free flowing" thing....to suddenly flow into another technique. Or to try to reverse a technique. This can make for some beautiful exchanges of energy on the mat. It can also bring out the worse in some people. People will often decide to change techniques or attempt a reversal for egotistical reasons. I think this gets away from both cooperation and collusion, but it is bad - you can teach your partner to be scared or distrustful on the mat, and you can injure them.

Garth
01-31-2012, 07:42 AM
Re: 100% Cooperative Training

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Dan harden wrote:

How are these different?
this
this
or
this
Define it.

Movement ...for the sake of movement is fine by me. Although form that follows function is compelling on its own. But movement without actual attacks and meaningful defenses is simply not budo.

Strongly agree, if any of those people in those videos, claim to be martial artists or self defense experts
and I had the misfortune of training under them, I would just fall on my sword when the time came.
Dancing with the Stars maybe calling though......:p

Mary Eastland
01-31-2012, 07:46 AM
Well there is a bit of a back lash isn't there? I do keep track of what people say.
Some folks have written in with the same comments of feeling they are being silenced, pressured, pushed out.. The comments on the feeling of being silenced seems to occur most often from Mary Malmros and Mary Eastland. It happen several times in the last few days. Also some comment about "we have a right to speak and everyone is equal."
So if you note the push back to me is that I shouldn't be here and have no right to talk in the Aikido section.
Make more sense?
Kind of weird though...
I am Aikido-ka
Talking about Aikido
And Aikido teachers and Shihan come to train Aiki with me and I can't discuss aikido knowledgeably?
Hmm...

Dan

When you do shiho nage how do you teach about IP? How about during Randori? I am interested in ideas about that...I know how I do it....If does really need to be felt and talked about on the mat. I understand what you are saying.

For me safety is really important around technique. Shiho nage can be very complicated when focusing on using no muscle and just letting it happen. It makes a wonderful vessel for a challenge in being centered and not forcing things to happen.

Carsten Möllering
01-31-2012, 07:54 AM
Noro Masamichi (the first video Dan posted) was one of the early pioneers of aikido Europe.
After a severe car accident he couldn't do budo anymore. He gave back his shihan-title to hombu.

He then developped special movement patterns which have roots in aikido, but are closely connected to some different "moving systems", health gymnastics, hara training, contact work and things like Feldenkrais and Euthonie.

Noro sensei clearly doesn't claim his way of moving aikido! He clearly doesn't claim it to be a budo!
Officially it is called: "aiki no michi - Methode (method of) Noro".

Because of his special situtiation the "Methode Noro" is Member of the french aikido federation FFAAA:

French
Federation of
Aikido -> Christian Tissier
Aiki Budo -> Mochizuki Minoru
Affinitaire= related -> Ki no michi, Noro Masamichi

So the videos of Noro sensei should definitely not be used to understand aikido.
The Methode Noro is meant to do harmonical, cooperative Movements. And in the view of Noro sensei this clearly distinguishes it from aikido or budo.

graham christian
01-31-2012, 08:26 AM
Carsten. There are videos of Noro doing Aikido if you care to look for them as he was one of the 'pioneers' in England and France of Aikido.

I have never personally met him. However, from those early days when he was teaching Aikido and thus my Teacher I have many personal stories which have obviously been given to me about such times.

Just adding a bit more information for you.

Regards.G.

DH
01-31-2012, 08:31 AM
When you do shiho nage how do you teach about IP? How about during Randori? I am interested in ideas about that...I know how I do it....If does really need to be felt and talked about on the mat. I understand what you are saying.

For me safety is really important around technique. Shiho nage can be very complicated when focusing on using no muscle and just letting it happen. It makes a wonderful vessel for a challenge in being centered and not forcing things to happen.
You realize you are asking me about your movement and understanding? Is this where I answer and I get accused of a personal attack because someone asked me about their training and I discussed their movement?
1. You don't teach IP in a waza.
2. You don't teach IP in randori
3. Internal power is best trained separately. It is obvious in the videos that peoples bodies are not moving centered in their movement. You are never going to get there-no one is-without specific training to join your limbs to your center and learn to strengthen that. Secondary issues is in how that will control anyone who contacts you...without you thinking about it much. When you train appropriately they will follow your movement without you being stressed. Even when they start to resist, your connection will pretty much control things. A third consideration is the myriad ways in which you can decide to play them and control them with aiki. This is complex and quite fun. Of course if you don't want to control people the other aspects of IP training come to the fore and may help as your body will be conditioned and able to take more punishment when your attacker starts to control you.
4. Shiho nage is not complicated and is not a single waza anyway, and I wouldn't ever chose to use it.
5. You keep bringing safety up as if it isn't a concern for anyone else but you. Why?
6. There is no real "challenge" in being centered in aikido as a vessel. The art itself doesn't do anything at a level to really stress anyone with a well developed center. Aikido -at best- moderately stresses a developed system. That is one of the reasons it can be so much fun when you do have a well developed center.

Dan

DH
01-31-2012, 08:39 AM
Noro Masamichi (the first video Dan posted) was one of the early pioneers of aikido Europe.
After a severe car accident he couldn't do budo anymore. He gave back his shihan-title to hombu.

He then developped special movement patterns which have roots in aikido, but are closely connected to some different "moving systems", health gymnastics, hara training, contact work and things like Feldenkrais and Euthonie.

Noro sensei clearly doesn't claim his way of moving aikido! He clearly doesn't claim it to be a budo!
Officially it is called: "aiki no michi - Methode (method of) Noro".

Because of his special situtiation the "Methode Noro" is Member of the french aikido federation FFAAA:

French
Federation of
Aikido -> Christian Tissier
Aiki Budo -> Mochizuki Minoru
Affinitaire= related -> Ki no michi, Noro Masamichi

So the videos of Noro sensei should definitely not be used to understand aikido.
The Methode Noro is meant to do harmonical, cooperative Movements. And in the view of Noro sensei this clearly distinguishes it from aikido or budo.
Hi Carlston
I knew they were movement drills only ....that was part of the point to define it and discuss the differences. I have to go on a short trip but I had a series of other videos; going from these movement drills up the ladder to more powerful movement and control in hopes of discussing movement V budo. Alas, family issues prevail.
Dan

Carsten Möllering
01-31-2012, 08:43 AM
There are videos of Noro doing Aikido ...
Yes, I know. Do you know this one? (http://www.aikido-ig-hilden.de/index.php?nr=5&pub=531)

Asai sensei, the shihan of the "aikikai of Germany " (which I don't belong to, I'm Member of the Federation led by Endo and Tissier [> FFAAA > Noro again] ), who has shaped the aikido in Germany in a large part is a close friend of Noro sensei. And I think the form of the aikido in the "aikikai of Germany" is due to this connection.

Just adding a bit more information for you.
Thank you very much. ;-)

Marc Abrams
01-31-2012, 08:55 AM
Noro Masamichi (the first video Dan posted) was one of the early pioneers of aikido Europe.
After a severe car accident he couldn't do budo anymore. He gave back his shihan-title to hombu.

He then developped special movement patterns which have roots in aikido, but are closely connected to some different "moving systems", health gymnastics, hara training, contact work and things like Feldenkrais and Euthonie.

Noro sensei clearly doesn't claim his way of moving aikido! He clearly doesn't claim it to be a budo!
Officially it is called: "aiki no michi - Methode (method of) Noro".

Because of his special situtiation the "Methode Noro" is Member of the french aikido federation FFAAA:

French
Federation of
Aikido -> Christian Tissier
Aiki Budo -> Mochizuki Minoru
Affinitaire= related -> Ki no michi, Noro Masamichi

So the videos of Noro sensei should definitely not be used to understand aikido.
The Methode Noro is meant to do harmonical, cooperative Movements. And in the view of Noro sensei this clearly distinguishes it from aikido or budo.

Carsten:

Thank you for providing us with that very important information. I would certainly be curious as to what the function and purpose of the method is. Are there stated goals?

I keep looking back in time to the abilities of the major figures in Aikido, not just O'Sensei, in order to gain some understanding as to how they could do what they did, how they trained to get to where they were, and how they personally manifested their unique versions of Aikido. For example, many people who advocate a style of Aikido that is sourced from Tohei Sensei (Ki Society), are strong advocates of 100% cooperative training. Some even claim to do well what Tohei Sensei could do. The yard stick to which I would want to hold them to would be to do what Tohei Sensei did. When he came to Hawaii for the first time, he took on five accomplished judoka at once. No accounts of that event described it as being some cooperative, love fest. Tohei Sensei defeated them, period. If people want to claim for themselves some version of Aikido that cannot work in some type of setting as that, or deny the "need" to subject themselves to such scrutiny, then maybe they should take a road traveled like Noro Sensei and described what they do as being RELATED to the martial art of Aikido.

We can debate day in and day out as to exactly how we should be able to define Aikido. I for one, embrace the idea that Aikido is an art about Peace and Harmony. I place those philosophical goals squarely within the realm of martial arts. I am always seeking to maintain peace and harmony, even if that means having to act in an effective, martial-arts manner, restoring peace and harmony when confronted with conflict, discord, etc.. I believe that to be at the heart of budo. O'Sensei demonstrated that ability; Tohei Sensei demonstrated that ability; Imaizumi Sensei still demonstrates that ability. If that is my lineage, then I consider my obligation/duty to live up to that lineage. To me, true peace makers are the martially effective people who can restore peace and harmony in order to protect themselves and others.

My teacher, and his teachers before him, trained very hard, where the training and real-life experiences went far beyond 100% cooperative training. This history enables my teacher to remain calm and focused, regardless of whether you attack him properly (who among us has not done the wrong attack as an uke, by mistake....), try and mess with him, try and stop him, try changing the paradigm.... It simply does not matter to him, and he will control you and the experience. Remarkably, he does so in a manner that nobody gets hurt. I believe that if I am to reach and/or surpass his level (which is what I train to do every day), then I must work on remaining calm and centered, regardless of the nature and intent of the attack. If I fail, I pick my self up (proverbially speaking, or really picking my self up) and get back to work again until I can do what I need to to to keep the peace and harmony, regardless of the circumstances. I have yet to see all 100% cooperative training yield any kind of benefit for my stated goals. I do see the value in training cooperatively in a safe trusting setting, in which the people are increasingly trying to add resistance, stop the technique and attack any perceive openings. It should be to the point where you can ask a person to attack you any way, manner, shape and form that he/she would like. If you can routinely manage to control the situation and stop the attack, then you are on the right track. If you cannot, you must work harder and harder.

People can agree to disagree with me, that is fine, this is how I train and why I train that way. I have an open dojo in which anybody is welcome to come and train. We all test ourselves in a spirit of camaraderie with the higher goals as stated above. We check our egos in at the door and pick them up on the way out, while having a blast training hard, laughing and joking our way through an increasingly tougher training environment.

Marc Abrams

graham christian
01-31-2012, 08:57 AM
Yes, I know. Do you know this one? (http://www.aikido-ig-hilden.de/index.php?nr=5&pub=531)

Asai sensei, the shihan of the "aikikai of Germany " (which I don't belong to, I'm Member of the Federation led by Endo and Tissier [> FFAAA > Noro again] ), who has shaped the aikido in Germany in a large part is a close friend of Noro sensei. And I think the form of the aikido in the "aikikai of Germany" is due to this connection.

Thank you very much. ;-)

Thanks. No I hadn't seen that particular early footage of Noro. That was much appreciated. Neither had I seen Asai Sensei. Very interesting.

Kanetzuka Sensei also said to me he was a great friend of Noro, by the way his eyes lit up and the accompanying smile which went with the communication when I mentioned the name I could see he had great admiration for the man.

Thank you for the added information.

Regards.G.

gates
01-31-2012, 09:29 AM
I heard an account that at one particular seminar in the 60's when Noro Sensei first came onto the mat he bellowed, "My name is Noro". At which point large pieces of plaster board started falling off the ceiling !

graham christian
01-31-2012, 09:41 AM
I was just thinking about this the other day, the difference between cooperative and collusive training.

Most training is cooperative - I really don't see how skills can be developed or imparted without cooperation at some point, whether it is direct teacher-t-student contact, or a training overseen by a teacher.

Kata-based training is certainly cooperative. Even if the kata involves a full-power attack.

Resistance can be cooperative. Progressive resistance is obviously cooperative, but full-power resistance can also be cooperative if the technique is designed to overcome full resistance, such as some jujutsu I have seen, and I believe Iwama training goes through cycles like that.

Kali / escrima flow drills are cooperative...even if one side is trying to do "outpace" the other such that they can get a cut in. Western boxing training using focus mits and striking pads and such is also cooperative.

I think it is fair to say that a "contest" element of training, such as judo randori, rolling, or free sparring, is not entirely cooperative. But IMO you don't see that as more than a component of training....even in BJJ they practice technique. They may not want to admit that they train cooperatively but they do.

Collusion is not the same thing as cooperation....collusion, I would define as when someone tanks in a surprising or unexpected fashion during training. Particularly if it leads nage to believe they did the throw. That's what gives the whole concept of cooperation a bad name - the idea that it might actually delude or ruin the training of the thrower by making them feel that they can do things that they cannot. This is the root of the old outsider view of Aikido as pointless. But I've never really experienced it personally. (I think the collusion between the instructor and his or her uke as they are demonstrating a technique is a slightly different category of thing....since that would be about allowing the teacher to show something, and not to improve the teacher's skills.)

What I have experienced in Aikido is a real problem....there is an encouragement in my style and some others to do the "free flowing" thing....to suddenly flow into another technique. Or to try to reverse a technique. This can make for some beautiful exchanges of energy on the mat. It can also bring out the worse in some people. People will often decide to change techniques or attempt a reversal for egotistical reasons. I think this gets away from both cooperation and collusion, but it is bad - you can teach your partner to be scared or distrustful on the mat, and you can injure them.

Yes Cliff, that's basically what I am saying. Thanks for the reply.

Your view of what you find to do with 'free flowing thing' as you call it, the 'flowing into another technique or reversal of technique' I find interesting too. I have seen this a lot and see where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel the people doing it are missing the point somehow and too busy trying to look impressive.

The main point is though is that of itself it is a skill, it is a very good part of Aikido, it is a very hard part of Aikido to learn. Therefore done properly it is good.

The problem in my opinion can only be to do with when? or how? it is taught and personally I feel it is more to do with the when?.

Once again I see it as the 'everyone wants to do the impressive stuff' syndrome. Everyone wants to start at the top type attitude.

That's just me though.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
01-31-2012, 09:47 AM
@ Dan: Thank you for your detailed response.

I certainly don't mean that safety is just my concern.
I agree that Aikido technique is not the way to become centered.
Practicing Aikido technique after you have learn how to be centered can enhance being centered (if that makes any sense) ;o)

Thanks for your patience...again I see we are saying pretty much the same thing. :o)

graham christian
01-31-2012, 09:59 AM
I heard an account that at one particular seminar in the 60's when Noro Sensei first came onto the mat he bellowed, "My name is Noro". At which point large pieces of plaster board started falling off the ceiling !

Ha, ha. I vaguely recall something about someone doing that, was that him?

On watching the video pointed out by Carsten though and the distance he threw the uke on it that did make me recall a story from my teacher that he told us, one of those you think Mmmmmm.

He told us they were practicing in a place where there were wooden rafters going across from the tops of the walls where you can see through to the roof above. Maybe a barn or something. Anyway, he said on this occasion being now confident as uke and being able to handle his powerful throws that Noro sent him clean up and over one of the rafters.

One of those where you wonder if there's any exaggeration going on there but nonetheless that's what he told us.

Regards.G.

SeiserL
01-31-2012, 02:32 PM
Rather than use to describe or differentiate between types of training if I was asked about it by some inquiring mind I would say all training is 100% cooperative or else it is not good training.
IMHO, if we agreed to cooperate through compliance to learn skill drills, this is useful.

If we have agreed to resist through noncompliance to learn validity (effectiveness and efficacy), this is also cooperative and useful.

"Wisdom is knowing the difference"

hughrbeyer
01-31-2012, 02:32 PM
Another thank-you to Carsten for the background information on Noro Sensei. I had seen and been baffled by what he's doing before this--it's good to know the origin and motivation.

@Mary, why ask Dan how he teaches shihonage? He doesn't teach aikido... he just teaches aikido teachers. :) And when I hear someone who's done aikido for 40 years, 10 in Japan and the other 30 running his own dojo, say how much he learns from a day with Dan, I assume Dan does adequately well with that.

Since I do practice aikido and IP skills, if I can take a stab at your question: When I practice shihonage the primary use of IP skills is at the beginning and the end. On ryote-tori omote, for example, my goal is that uke's balance is taken on first contact, so that by the time uke has a good grip I own their center. In the past I might have done this by leading them slightly so they overcommit and overbalance forward slightly; or I might have blended and moved off line omote so they again overcommitted and overbalanced; or I might have made myself soild and let them run into my grounded center, and taken advantage of their momentary reaction to move into the tenkan.

With the IP skills, my goal is more that they never reach or affect my center at all; instead their power coming into me is dissipated and throws them off balance. To me, it feels like I never have to work very hard because they never get a good handle on me. (On a good day.) Unlike blending or leading tho, I never lose my connection with their center, so I can control them--in particular when I move in for the tenkan, not only can they not stop me, they want to move out of my way.

One man's opinion, yada yada. Obviously I'm trying to learn what me teacher's trying to teach, but I make no claims that either he or Dan would approve the above message. Just my attempt to put words on the current state of my practice.

graham christian
01-31-2012, 03:16 PM
IMHO, if we agreed to cooperate through compliance to learn skill drills, this is useful.

If we have agreed to resist through noncompliance to learn validity (effectiveness and efficacy), this is also cooperative and useful.

"Wisdom is knowing the difference"

Yes, I agree.

Regards.G.

Alex Megann
02-01-2012, 02:17 AM
Kanetzuka Sensei also said to me he was a great friend of Noro, by the way his eyes lit up and the accompanying smile which went with the communication when I mentioned the name I could see he had great admiration for the man.

Thank you for the added information.

Regards.G.

Graham,

I get the impression that you are an intelligent, honourable and sincere man, and I would advise you to be careful what you write on the Web. I hope you are not trying to name-drop, after your brief conversation with Kanetsuka Sensei (do make sure you spell his name correctly if you mention him again, by the way!).

Based on what you have written and on the video clips you have posted on AikiWeb, your understanding of what aikido is and Kanetsuka Sensei's are on opposite sides of the galaxy.

Alex

graham christian
02-01-2012, 03:10 AM
Graham,

I get the impression that you are an intelligent, honourable and sincere man, and I would advise you to be careful what you write on the Web. I hope you are not trying to name-drop, after your brief conversation with Kanetsuka Sensei (do make sure you spell his name correctly if you mention him again, by the way!).

Based on what you have written and on the video clips you have posted on AikiWeb, your understanding of what aikido is and Kanetsuka Sensei's are on opposite sides of the galaxy.

Alex

Alex. What are you talking about??? If I was such a person who name dropped then I would name drop. What's your problem?

Subject:Noro. You will find my comments are all to do with showing what a great Aikido man he was. The subject is not me. This comment shows how Kanetsuka admires him.

Yes you noticed 'brief conversation' and so there is no add on or impression given by me of anything more thank you. When you meet these types of people you tend to treasure the memories and if I choose to share one I don't expect it to be seen as anything else thank you.

If you want my opinion on Kanetsuka Sensei then ask me. I think he and me would understand each other very well too thank you whether the way we do Aikido is similar or completely different because on our 'brief meeting' we had a 'brief' but very enthusiastic and warm conversation. I have met others who were cold and distant. So once again this is me saying how he left a great impression on me as a good human being.

After watching his class I am quite aware of his style and way and excellent it is too.

I could share more about that one class I was honoured to watch but maybe that will be seen as name dropping or some other crazy thing ha, ha. Wow........

Regards.G.

Alex Megann
02-01-2012, 03:31 AM
Alex. What are you talking about??? If I was such a person who name dropped then I would name drop. What's your problem?

Subject:Noro. You will find my comments are all to do with showing what a great Aikido man he was. The subject is not me. This comment shows how Kanetsuka admires him.

Yes you noticed 'brief conversation' and so there is no add on or impression given by me of anything more thank you. When you meet these types of people you tend to treasure the memories and if I choose to share one I don't expect it to be seen as anything else thank you.

If you want my opinion on Kanetsuka Sensei then ask me. I think he and me would understand each other very well too thank you whether the way we do Aikido is similar or completely different because on our 'brief meeting' we had a 'brief' but very enthusiastic and warm conversation. I have met others who were cold and distant. So once again this is me saying how he left a great impression on me as a good human being.

After watching his class I am quite aware of his style and way and excellent it is too.

I could share more about that one class I was honoured to watch but maybe that will be seen as name dropping or some other crazy thing ha, ha. Wow........

Regards.G.

Graham,

I apologise if I have misrepresented you or misunderstood your reasons for mentioning his name, and I acknowledge that his respect for Noro Sensei is of interest for this thread.

It's just that you have mentioned this meeting before in a previous thread:

When I went to visit Kanetzuka Sensei I have a nice funny story, bottom line being it was a demonstration by me to my accompanying friend of how to behave, Japanese style or rather Japanese budo style.

and I remember thinking at the time that that was a very odd thing to say. Perhaps you feel you could have expressed yourself more clearly, but the way I interpreted that sentence was that you took your friend there to show them what an authentic Japanese budo man you were, and that came across as a little arrogant. That does seem out of character for you from what I have read from you, but after following Kanetsuka Sensei for thirty years or more I couldn't help having my buttons pressed on that occasion. Now I have re-read the original post I accept that that sentence could be read in more than one way.

Regards,

Alex

graham christian
02-01-2012, 05:49 AM
Graham,

I apologise if I have misrepresented you or misunderstood your reasons for mentioning his name, and I acknowledge that his respect for Noro Sensei is of interest for this thread.

It's just that you have mentioned this meeting before in a previous thread:

and I remember thinking at the time that that was a very odd thing to say. Perhaps you feel you could have expressed yourself more clearly, but the way I interpreted that sentence was that you took your friend there to show them what an authentic Japanese budo man you were, and that came across as a little arrogant. That does seem out of character for you from what I have read from you, but after following Kanetsuka Sensei for thirty years or more I couldn't help having my buttons pressed on that occasion. Now I have re-read the original post I accept that that sentence could be read in more than one way.

Regards,

Alex

Thank you Alex. Sorry for any misunderstanding caused.

That past visit with regard to my accompanying friend and student was funny and you are right that the whole story was not expressed and so it could be taken in various ways.

We nicknamed this friend of mine Samurai Nick because he was always very intense and when he did a technique let's say his version of soft was different to ours. He loved the sword and the samurai way according to him. So there was a little game going on there where I was showing him that samurai was more to do with respect and nothing else. This always confused him as an answer and made me laugh.

Anyway, so it wasn't me taking him it was rather him taking me to visit and on reaching the venue couldn't resist mischievously giving him a bit of reality on respect.

It was at a church hall and the doors to the hall were wide open and training was in progress and chairs lined the sides of the hall. Very inviting. He walked straight in and sat down. I stayed at the entrance and when he looked over and beckoned to me I merely lowered my head in disapproval.

He came out and asked me whats wrong. I didn't answer his question but told him to do what I do and keep quiet. I knelt down seiza and told him to do the same by the other door and say nothing and don't even move.

Within ten seconds of doing so a student was instructed to come over to me and invite us in.

Once again he was confused and wondered what all that was about. Once again he got the same answer from me.

Now this type of thing, japanese budo etiquette, doesn't happen in my dojo and I don't ask for it to be. So in my place it seems anything but 'budo' but the point was that is no reason to disrespect anothers way. Plus him thinking he was very budo.

Just my little joke and my answer to what is budo? Respect.

Regards.G.

Cliff Judge
02-01-2012, 10:25 AM
Yes Cliff, that's basically what I am saying. Thanks for the reply.

Your view of what you find to do with 'free flowing thing' as you call it, the 'flowing into another technique or reversal of technique' I find interesting too. I have seen this a lot and see where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel the people doing it are missing the point somehow and too busy trying to look impressive.

The main point is though is that of itself it is a skill, it is a very good part of Aikido, it is a very hard part of Aikido to learn. Therefore done properly it is good.

The problem in my opinion can only be to do with when? or how? it is taught and personally I feel it is more to do with the when?.

Once again I see it as the 'everyone wants to do the impressive stuff' syndrome. Everyone wants to start at the top type attitude.

That's just me though.

Regards.G.

I may have made it sound worse than it is, by focusing on a negative aspect that I find myself embodying all too often. :(

It makes sense to teach students the basics, then introduce what I learned as jiyuwaza - uke gives a certain attack, nage responds with "one of the techniques we just worked on." Early on you just want to see them cycle through the techniques and not do the same thing twice. As they progress you want them to see them "allowing the proper technique to happen" without thinking about it. (Though that requires a high level of cooperation from uke, to provide slight nuances in the attack that would ellicit a certain technique from nage. This is not something I have a particularly good handle on and I don't think I've ever been shown how to do this.)

This kind of practice probably maps to some type of general educational technique. You drill the student with rote practice, then you have them integrate that knowledge by forcing them to choose an application. This requires a great deal of cooperation from uke, to the extent that if uke isn't actually a little bit collusive it may do more harm than good...when you are practicing regular technique, uke refusing to move if you are doing something wrong is helpful, but when you are practicing how to choose the proper technique, if uke refuses to move because the technique doesn't work, it will instead teach them that they chose the wrong technique... which is a slightly different matter.

I have no knowledge from my koryu training as to how this transition to "free flow" happens, because I haven't been training in koryu long enough to get there. The way we do it in my Aikido tradition is good because it gets you to integrate and synthesize your technical knowledge at an earlier phase. My observation is that this can lead to synthesizing and integrating crap knowledge (though at least it is your own knowledge). Some of you Iwama people might say you told me so, but I have seen it commented that earlier introduction to free application has proven beneficial in other martial art environments, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, for example.

As uke, this kind of training puts you in a situation where you don't know ahead of time how you might be thrown. I don't believe this is the case in koryu training for the first many years of training. Even the scariest-looking kata involving a hard throw a weapon an inch away from the eye becomes familiar with repetition. That's an advantage to more-cooperative training, I think. But the problem may simply be that in free application training, both partners must cooperate with each other, and things tend to skew towards nage.

Abasan
02-01-2012, 12:11 PM
To learn while fighting is difficult. Not impossible but difficult.

Thus in essence, all training is cooperative. To what degree depends on the situation at hand and the objective.

sakumeikan
02-02-2012, 03:18 AM
100% cooperative training is a disaster.
Always has been
Always will be
It will always fail.
It isn't budo
It isn't Martial arts
It has no place in a discussion of Budo or in Martial arts
It is something else.

What possible value is this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmp1jqcSy3g&feature=player_embedded) to Budo?
What does it have to do with weapons?
What does it have to do to defending against a weapon?
If it is a budo why not get a swordsman to cut with a bokken like they use in real budo?
Since it is not an attack, since it is not therefore a defense against an attack.... what is it, on the earth?

Can someone explain to me how this relates to any budo practice that they recognize? How does this 100% cooperative training relate to any budo anyone, anywhere, recognizes as a Budo?

Budo is taught in degrees of cooperation that gradually increase in resistence. Otherwise you are not doing a budo. But that's okay too. Just don't confuse the two.
Dan

Dear Dan ,
It may well be that some people need to train with a degree of mutual co operation in order to ascertain /acquire skills.The degree of percentage may well be 100% or less .I think it would depend on the level of competence of the persons involved.However if the people continued throughout their
practice always being 100% cooperative and falling over at a drop of a hat that imo is a waste of time.[
Any senior person I think would go easy on a beginner , but as the beginner gets more experienced the level of training should get more intense.Cheers, Joe.

gates
02-02-2012, 04:29 AM
Surely there is cooperative resistance and uncooperative resistance depending on the purpose of the practice. Be clear what that purpose is and then practice. Worrying about or judging the purpose or the practice of other people is not necessary.

Some people use BUDO for other purposes and practice in a way which contradicts it's commonly held definition. I hit a nail in with a spanner, for a moment the spanner was a hammer. So it depends if you describe the thing by it's form or it's function.

In this way anything can be used for just about, well anything, although I admit hammers don't make particularly good spanners.

graham christian
02-02-2012, 07:21 AM
So far so good. I think we have come up with three terms so far: Cooperative, Collusive and Live. That all seems good to me.

I would add to that Increasing degree of difficulty as a better way of saying the rest and that's about it.

Nice one everyone.

Regards.G.