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graham christian
01-24-2012, 05:20 PM
I'm a bit mystified, but getting a bit clearer, as to what the overall scene in Aikido is. It's taken over a year of reading these posts to get a clearer picture.

At first my mere mention of spiritual led to mass attack. Now I see a lot are experiencing a new phenomenon (needs no name) and recognising there is more than what they originally thought.

I have said consistently that the spiritual, universal principles can be learned and thus Aikido better understood. This would take perceptions other than the five senses, hence feeling.

Now, in a slight change I hear 'you have to feel it'.

How many different feelings are you aware of and based on which principles? Statements like 'on touch a person feels different to normal' is standard in my Aikido. Taught from day one.

Regards.G.

graham christian
01-24-2012, 06:48 PM
Thought I would add a bit more here.

When you hold someones wrist for example, what do you feel? Secondly, what is it dependent on?

For example, the first thing I feel on doing so is the others resistance. Thus they are already fighting in essence. Now I can do many things with this if I understand the principles involved and none of them include resistance or going against what they are doing.

On the other side of the coin what about when another grabs my wrist, what do they feel?

Well, it depends purely and simply on what I am doing spiritually rather than physical motion.

If I 'let go of' my wrist then the other will feel a very odd feeling. They may squeeze and squeeze as hard as they like and yet feel they are using up all of their energy and getting nowhere which belies all of their past experiences.

That's one example of many. all with different feelings. If I let go of my wrist and let their exertions go through my arm and body to my center they generally let go at first saying I have taken all their energy. Another strange feeling.

If I do the above and at the same time give back to them what they are giving to me, (another function of center) then they feel they have hit upon something that moves them, meanwhile I feel their center and points of balance.

Three examples of different feelings.

Sometimes I give something else and each something else has a different effect and thus a different feeling. This could be stillness, it could be love, it all depends what we are drilling and the lesson I am teaching.

Maybe you do similar?

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
01-25-2012, 01:19 AM
Well, I'm probably not quite what you had in mind, and admittedly I'm a poor example, but here's what I got for you:

:D When grabbing someone else's wrist, the first thing I feel is the urge to suppress the maniacal laughter that naturally arises. After that, because I'm suppressing the wrist toward their center (more or less) and not just grabbing and squeezing, I feel some kind of resistance in most people with less experience. I can feel shoulder tension to a degree. When I've had a sense of what I think of as "feeling into" the structure, I can't describe it other than I had a mental image of the structure further down the line. This was years ago when I was a semi-decent student and trained regularly though. Use it or lose it.
I have no idea how I feel, although I'm very sure "tense" would be the most common description, particularly after a decade of construction work. I have to constantly remind myself to "reset" when I'm trying (it really is just trying) to use my upper body powerfully.
In my experience completely "letting go" of the area being grabbed has had mixed results. When I was a kid I vividly remember trying to make someone who grabbed me let go by fighting with the grab; I gave up on that and by relaxing the limb and pulling from my legs and hips suddenly I was moving the bigger kid instead of the other way around. I distinctly remember feeling the flesh twist around my forearm as I pulled.
I've since tried similar relaxation, but against a strong grip all that happens is my muscles feel like they're about to rip off my bones.

graham christian
01-25-2012, 03:24 AM
Hi Matthew,
Thank you I had no one in mind, just a curiosity.

Your example is clear enough, I like the memory. It reminds me of a lot or may I say 99% of people or students I come across from the viewpoint of relaxing and letting go.

The relaxing and letting go is of itself a brand new experience, a brand new discipline for it takes great concentration at first and a feeling of freedom generally not felt before.

Now when such people as Tohei said as a principle 'Relax Completely' you get an idea of what he meant. Then you concentrate on the completely, ha ha.

Regards.G.

Carsten Möllering
01-25-2012, 05:14 AM
What changed my view completely was when I was thrown for the first time by Endo Seishiro.
I didn't feel anything. There was nothing to feel. I was sure he didn't even touch me. Next thing I realised was being hammered into the tatami. I felt the enormous energy of this throw only when it was over and sensei stood some steps away.

Then. What I feel when practicing with someone who is experienced with Endo's way of aikido is not my partner. I just feel that somebody laid his hand on my body. But I don' t feel that this hand does something to me. It just is there. So I just feel my own body. It's like I'm moving in a very pleasant and natural way, but it is not be felt why I am moving. I am just moving. And although it feels very "good", I am finally collapsing, going down to the ground. At no time I have to think about danger, have to jump or feel pain. I just move myself although I am not moving myself.
Sometimes it feels like every physical (not mental!) energy leaves me and my body is no longer able to stay upright.

When practicing with someone who is not so experienced I, and on the other side, people who practice with me, can feel that it is the hand, touching the body, that moves it and how the hand does it.

Another very interesting experience was being uke of Ikeda Hiroshi. He didn't move when grasped. And he didn't feel different in no way. It was just that I was off balance when he said I would be. And that I regained my balance, when he said so. On off on off ...
There was nothing to feel in his body, nothing that changed. But my body changed clearly.

Three examples of different feelings.
Those three examples sound familiar to what I was taught and practiced over the first years. But what I tried to describe was/is fundamentally different from those familiar pictures and experiences. It was something I had not experienced ever before.
It feels kind of being connected to oneself. Like grabbing oneself and not at different person. There is not two bodys any more. So there is no letting go or connection to a center or something like that. Just me. And I am doing strange things.
And if there is resistance, it is not like moving against an unmovable thing. But like not being able to move further. Again it's me who can't go on. It is not a resistance outside of me.

perceptions other than the five senses, hence feeling.
I don't understand: You mean fives sense = feeling?
Or feeling is different from five senses?

How many different feelings are you aware of and based on which principles?
"Feeling" in my textbook can mean an psychological phenomenon: Emotions. This is not what I am talking about in aikido.
"Feeling" can also mean a physiological phenomenon. Then it is the sensory impression or cognition of the surrounding world. This is what think to be related to aikido.

Neither of both in my understanding is related to "Spirituality".

Statements like 'on touch a person feels different to normal' is standard in my Aikido.I don't get how you understand this phrase in this context?
What is interesting to me is, that there is a different quality when touching Endo or Ikeda or my teacher or my students. Completely different. And touching Endo for the first time, like touching Ikeda, had no parallel in my life on and off the tatami. This was completely different.
Hearing Endo talking about spiritual issues was very familiar to me. I understand it, even if I don't understand everything he says.

SeiserL
01-25-2012, 05:58 AM
Being a bit auditory, I initially tend to talk my way through things. A rather slow strategy.

IMHO, best learning is see-do. Visually see it externally from a spectator position, see it internally from a participants position, and kinesthetically do it.

Seeing the visual (internal and external) is useful. Feeling the alignment and connect within and between us both is essential to check if I have it. Then move.

IMHO, its sequentially useful to intellectually have some idea of what I am feeling for.

Thoughts?

SeiserL
01-25-2012, 05:59 AM
PS: The conceptualization that "feelings" are spiritual is a whole different thing.

graham christian
01-25-2012, 06:48 AM
What changed my view completely was when I was thrown for the first time by Endo Seishiro.
I didn't feel anything. There was nothing to feel. I was sure he didn't even touch me. Next thing I realised was being hammered into the tatami. I felt the enormous energy of this throw only when it was over and sensei stood some steps away.

Then. What I feel when practicing with someone who is experienced with Endo's way of aikido is not my partner. I just feel that somebody laid his hand on my body. But I don' t feel that this hand does something to me. It just is there. So I just feel my own body. It's like I'm moving in a very pleasant and natural way, but it is not be felt why I am moving. I am just moving. And although it feels very "good", I am finally collapsing, going down to the ground. At no time I have to think about danger, have to jump or feel pain. I just move myself although I am not moving myself.
Sometimes it feels like every physical (not mental!) energy leaves me and my body is no longer able to stay upright.

When practicing with someone who is not so experienced I, and on the other side, people who practice with me, can feel that it is the hand, touching the body, that moves it and how the hand does it.

Another very interesting experience was being uke of Ikeda Hiroshi. He didn't move when grasped. And he didn't feel different in no way. It was just that I was off balance when he said I would be. And that I regained my balance, when he said so. On off on off ...
There was nothing to feel in his body, nothing that changed. But my body changed clearly.

Those three examples sound familiar to what I was taught and practiced over the first years. But what I tried to describe was/is fundamentally different from those familiar pictures and experiences. It was something I had not experienced ever before.
It feels kind of being connected to oneself. Like grabbing oneself and not at different person. There is not two bodys any more. So there is no letting go or connection to a center or something like that. Just me. And I am doing strange things.
And if there is resistance, it is not like moving against an unmovable thing. But like not being able to move further. Again it's me who can't go on. It is not a resistance outside of me.

I don't understand: You mean fives sense = feeling?
Or feeling is different from five senses?

"Feeling" in my textbook can mean an psychological phenomenon: Emotions. This is not what I am talking about in aikido.
"Feeling" can also mean a physiological phenomenon. Then it is the sensory impression or cognition of the surrounding world. This is what think to be related to aikido.

Neither of both in my understanding is related to "Spirituality".

I don't get how you understand this phrase in this context?
What is interesting to me is, that there is a different quality when touching Endo or Ikeda or my teacher or my students. Completely different. And touching Endo for the first time, like touching Ikeda, had no parallel in my life on and off the tatami. This was completely different.
Hearing Endo talking about spiritual issues was very familiar to me. I understand it, even if I don't understand everything he says.

Very nice experiences. I love the Endo one. I can't say exactly what he is doing there as I would have to ask him but it is very familiar so I could say I understand. I would call that true kokyu.

When I say spiritual I do mean it though. The feeling you felt from Endo was not physical, it was not mental, so what was it?

We have five senses we are used to, body senses. Thus five body perceptions. Then we have numerous spiritual perceptions, as we don't categorize them we put them down to feelings. As we get used to them and use them we can then 'see' perceive and detect more than what we could before.
Thus the 'Master' or 'Teacher' can see and do things differently.

All perceptions are a matter of outflow, inflow. Giving and receiving. The basic premise of yin and yang.

Regards.G.

graham christian
01-25-2012, 06:58 AM
Being a bit auditory, I initially tend to talk my way through things. A rather slow strategy.

IMHO, best learning is see-do. Visually see it externally from a spectator position, see it internally from a participants position, and kinesthetically do it.

Seeing the visual (internal and external) is useful. Feeling the alignment and connect within and between us both is essential to check if I have it. Then move.

IMHO, its sequentially useful to intellectually have some idea of what I am feeling for.

Thoughts?

Hi Lynn. Best learning? I would add a few things there but basically yes.

Sequentially useful to know what you're feeling for? Yes indeed. In fact critical I would say.

I am always feeling for non-resistance. That's bottom line. No substitutes for me. Thus the principles learned come into play, the one that achieves this is the correct one.

Regards.G.

Carsten Möllering
01-25-2012, 07:37 AM
I love the Endo one. I can't say exactly what he is doing there ...

We call this "atari". And by applying atari you are able to "make aiki". It is something that can be learned through certain exercises. When I do it you will feel my body, my center, some "pressure". When Endo does it youl will feel nothing at all. Just being moved.

... it is very familiar so I could say I understand.
I don't mean to be disrespectfull.
I think you posted some videos showing your teaching. If I dont mistake you for someone else, what you are doing or at least what you are showing on those videos is completely different.

I would call that true kokyu.
kokyû - at least in my/our understanding - is something different.

When I say spiritual I do mean it though. The feeling you felt from Endo was not physical, it was not mental, so what was it?
Well, although I wasn't able to feel it then, it was something very physicall. Now that I'm learning and practicing those things for some years, I can reproduce it to a certain degree. I can make, create, do it. It's not magic.
It's what we learn and teach. Everybody on his or her level.

Then we have numerous spiritual perceptions, as we don't categorize them we put them down to feelings.
Putting "spiritual perceptions" (what is that?) as "feelings" doesn't speek to me.
I can't connect this to my language use, can't connect it to my understanding of perception, spiritual or feelings. Be it as aikidoka or as theologian.
This sounds just kind of "esoteric" to me. Not my way of thinking ...

Carl Thompson
01-25-2012, 08:12 AM
I'm a bit mystified, but getting a bit clearer, as to what the overall scene in Aikido is. It's taken over a year of reading these posts to get a clearer picture.

Hello Graham

Personally, I have found Aikiweb to be a great resource to which I feel a lot of gratitude. Even just lurking is informative and that just got better once I stuck my neck out and went interactive. Better still, I have actually been able to meet and train with some of the people who have posted here in person as well as a few teachers they have posted about. Carsten mentioned Endo Shihan for example. My own chance to take ukemi from Endo came about indirectly through actually meeting and training with an Aikiweb member. I'd read descriptions like Carsten's and came up with an idea of what it might feel like, but actually grabbing Endo Shihan gave me a better, more personal picture of what it feels like to me.

Now, in a slight change I hear 'you have to feel it'.

I think your original post seems to admit to the validity of the acronym "IHTBF" (It Has To Be Felt - which has actually been around for quite a while) and yet it asks for yet more written description.

Also when you say this...

Statements like 'on touch a person feels different to normal' is standard in my Aikido. Taught from day one.

...how can you know if you haven't actually felt the person making the statement? For example:


Go lay hands on someone.
If they don't feel different than normal people?
They don't know what Ueshiba was talking about
They don't know what they are talking about when it comes to aiki.
Everything else is judo or jujutsu.

As I understand it, Dan Harden made you a friendly offer to train directly with him. It seems to me that asking for more written description while apparently claiming that what he describes is standard to your aikido goes against a major premise in the thread: If you don't actually have to feel to know, why are you asking?

I'm not saying you are wrong about your claim. That's the whole point. How can I know? I haven't trained with either of you.

Maybe Dan Harden needs to lay his hands on you too? Who knows, maybe he will eat his words? You could be doing us all a favour.

Btw:
This would take perceptions other than the five senses, hence feeling.
"Feeling" (by touching) is one of the five senses. :)

Mark Freeman
01-25-2012, 09:52 AM
What changed my view completely was when I was thrown for the first time by Endo Seishiro.
I didn't feel anything. There was nothing to feel. I was sure he didn't even touch me. Next thing I realised was being hammered into the tatami. I felt the enormous energy of this throw only when it was over and sensei stood some steps away.

Then. What I feel when practicing with someone who is experienced with Endo's way of aikido is not my partner. I just feel that somebody laid his hand on my body. But I don' t feel that this hand does something to me. It just is there. So I just feel my own body. It's like I'm moving in a very pleasant and natural way, but it is not be felt why I am moving. I am just moving. And although it feels very "good", I am finally collapsing, going down to the ground. At no time I have to think about danger, have to jump or feel pain. I just move myself although I am not moving myself.
Sometimes it feels like every physical (not mental!) energy leaves me and my body is no longer able to stay upright.

Hi Carsten,

Ah, the feeling of no feeling, the feel of being thrown by nothing (but a HUGE amount of nothing!). I have never felt Endo Sensei (but hope to one day in the not too distant future). I have however, been feeling this from my own teacher (Sensei Ken Williams) for the last 20 years. He seems to have more nothing now than he did back then:) The best part of being thrown like this, is that I always bounce back up smiling, ready to go again, somehow with more enery than I started with.

Another very interesting experience was being uke of Ikeda Hiroshi. He didn't move when grasped. And he didn't feel different in no way. It was just that I was off balance when he said I would be. And that I regained my balance, when he said so. On off on off ...
There was nothing to feel in his body, nothing that changed. But my body changed clearly.

I will be attending the seminar with Ikeda Sensei when he comes to the UK in April, I hope to experience what he is doing and compare it with my own understanding of what is happening..I look forward to it.

How different aikidoka approach the wrist grab has been of real interest to me, especially over the last few years. It is relevant to the discussion of feeling, as the quality of the grab/grip, governs so much.

In my own practice, I have been taught to hold 'with ki', which is a relatively soft physical hold, with a strong mental component. This seems at odds with how many others practice aikido (from my limited experience of feeling people outside of my own teacher's group). The 'strong' grip employed by many, seems to me, to create unneccessary tensions and restricts sensitivity and movement. It is easy to destabalise someone who relys on such strength. Their balance is gone and they have less chance of regaining it and having any chance of reversal.

There is so much about this subject that words do not do justice to. When in physical practice with another, how something feels is direct and current. Hands on, is to know the truth. Writing about it is a pale imitation.

regards,

Mark

graham christian
01-25-2012, 11:45 AM
Hello Graham

Personally, I have found Aikiweb to be a great resource to which I feel a lot of gratitude. Even just lurking is informative and that just got better once I stuck my neck out and went interactive. Better still, I have actually been able to meet and train with some of the people who have posted here in person as well as a few teachers they have posted about. Carsten mentioned Endo Shihan for example. My own chance to take ukemi from Endo came about indirectly through actually meeting and training with an Aikiweb member. I'd read descriptions like Carsten's and came up with an idea of what it might feel like, but actually grabbing Endo Shihan gave me a better, more personal picture of what it feels like to me.

I think your original post seems to admit to the validity of the acronym "IHTBF" (It Has To Be Felt - which has actually been around for quite a while) and yet it asks for yet more written description.

Also when you say this...

...how can you know if you haven't actually felt the person making the statement? For example:

As I understand it, Dan Harden made you a friendly offer to train directly with him. It seems to me that asking for more written description while apparently claiming that what he describes is standard to your aikido goes against a major premise in the thread: If you don't actually have to feel to know, why are you asking?

I'm not saying you are wrong about your claim. That's the whole point. How can I know? I haven't trained with either of you.

Maybe Dan Harden needs to lay his hands on you too? Who knows, maybe he will eat his words? You could be doing us all a favour.

Btw:

"Feeling" (by touching) is one of the five senses. :)

Hi Carl.
IHTBF. Actually I've always wondered what the significance to that was all about for all martial arts and techniques etc. have to be felt. It's given as something different when it's patently obvious isn't it?

On touch a person feels different to normal: Not sure what you mean by how can I know. How can I know what the person who made the statement means? Well I can't know unless I have been with that person. How can I know a person feels different to normal on touch is because it's regularly stated to me personally in my Aikido.

Let's not go into any personal invitation but me asking for written descriptions has nothing to do with what he does so I fail to see why it's connected. I think you're misunderstanding is based on words.

When I say I understand I find it's taken to mean I know. Two totally different things.

I can read, I pick up a book and read. As long as I am understanding what's being given to me I'm happy. I understand. Now if I then want to know I would have to go practice what was said in the book until I could do it. Then I would know.

So now maybe you can understand the premise of the thread, shared understandings, nothing to do with knowing. What I do I know. What others do they know. The rest is shared understandings.

As to me needing to train with someone else or someone else needing to train with me I see no need.If a person is stuck or looking for help then fine, anything else, not interested really.

By the way, with Endo Sensei what did it feel like to you personally?

Regards.G.

Carl Thompson
01-26-2012, 01:11 AM
Hello Graham

We can avoid misunderstanding "based on words" if we use plain English. Waxing philosophical about the definitions of "understanding" and "knowing" and yet ending up back where you started, saying you know anyway is not helpful:

How can I know a person feels different to normal on touch is because it's regularly stated to me personally in my Aikido.
(I'm presuming this is a statement and that you meant "How I can…" not "How can I…")

This time I'll avoid words like ‘knowledge' and ‘understanding': How did you get the "information" that this different feeling on touch is regularly stated in your aikido? I am referring to the specific IHTBF feeling that has featured in many of the discussions here recently (which you have been involved in). If you are only talking about how your own students, your own teachers and the people you have actually trained with feel different from normal then please say so. If not, (if you are referring to what others whom you have not met have described elsewhere on this forum) then how can you say you think it is obvious what this feeling is? You vaguely appear to have repeated back to me that training with these others is needed in order to do so…

Well I can't know unless I have been with that person.
…but then you go back to your original claim saying you can know it because it's regularly stated in your aikido.

Aren't you just saying here that you can know you have this specific feeling on touch in your aikido simply because it is regularly stated in your aikido? That isn't an answer.

I "get" that you want to hear experiences about how people feel different. No problem there. Ellis Amdur is also asking for this kind of account in his future columns (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20638). What I don't get is your apparent claim regarding the specific IHTBF feeling being in your aikido. Could you clarify your position on this issue please?


By the way, with Endo Sensei what did it feel like to you personally?


You might find it interesting, but let's have your reply to this first. ;)

Carl

graham christian
01-26-2012, 04:17 AM
Carl. I am still missing your point. You keep trying to connect what I say with what someone else says.

If someone says that in what they do people people feel nothing and that statement relates to me becauase that's what people in my art say then that is the only connection.

1) If that statement is given as if it's new or super special or generally not done then I would naturally be very surprised wouldn't I? I might even mention it and enquire about it mightent I?

2) It is natural to think that if they over there feel what they describe as nothing and my students feel what they describe as nothing then we could be doing the same thing. On further inspection though I doubt it.

3) I say and have repeatedly said I understand what they are doing. I understand it's an internal methodology. I understand what I have read about it only. I believe it's not the same AIKI Ueshiba did in his Aikido, only something he did before. I say also repeatedly that if it helps those doing it with their Aikido then that's good, like a nice bit of fertilizer. It opened Ueshibas eyes so it may open theirs.

It's not me with the significance here my friend.

Regards.G.

wxyzabc
01-26-2012, 06:09 AM
Hya Graham..interesting post.

To be on the end of someone with true aiki is an experience almost unknown in aikido. It doesn't feel like nothing though trust me. You have nooo idea what the person is doing...there is no sense of any technique even if he's doing one. You will hit the mat hard...it's literally stunning but makes you laugh at the same time. With 'volume' turned up you wouldn't be wanting/capable of getting up again too soon. There is no ukemi..only survival. Such a person is capable of no touch pins...able to stop a strong, trained guy dead from a metre away..again no touch. This goes way beyond what most have seen/know from the current crop of known aikido teachers.

What a few people talk about here is very real and very different to what 99.999%+ of people know. My own experience of this is at a what I would say is a high level is with a little Japanese guy who weighs 43kg.....he can drop people like a stone..multiple attackers too..lol. Actually he's now present on the net...good luck in finding him. He's so good most will dismiss it as fake : )

Ueshiba's aikido does exist...in aikido too ^^ some people are only doing heiwado though....:)

All the best

Lee

Mark Freeman
01-26-2012, 06:22 AM
with a little Japanese guy who weighs 43kg.....he can drop people like a stone..multiple attackers too..lol. Actually he's now present on the net...good luck in finding him. He's so good most will dismiss it as fake : )


Hi Lee,

it's not that I don't believe you, but this guy really must be 'little' as under 7 Stone men are pretty hard to find, anywhere.

If he is on the net, why not help us out with a link? Just because something looks fake, doesn't mean it is, there are plenty that will attest first hand, as you have done, that it is for real. However, there is plenty of 'real' fake stuff out there to choose from.

regards,

Mark

wxyzabc
01-26-2012, 06:52 AM
Hya Mark

Yeah he's small...real wiry...in the street he looks like you could flick him over : )

Ahhh I'd love to attach a link but the truth is that I really shouldn't without asking his permission (a japanese student posted the vids...but I have a feeling some were meant to be private).

I'll see what I can do..

Lee

Demetrio Cereijo
01-26-2012, 07:39 AM
Such a person is capable of no touch pins...able to stop a strong, trained guy dead from a metre away..again no touch.
Really?

graham christian
01-26-2012, 07:41 AM
Hya Graham..interesting post.

To be on the end of someone with true aiki is an experience almost unknown in aikido. It doesn't feel like nothing though trust me. You have nooo idea what the person is doing...there is no sense of any technique even if he's doing one. You will hit the mat hard...it's literally stunning but makes you laugh at the same time. With 'volume' turned up you wouldn't be wanting/capable of getting up again too soon. There is no ukemi..only survival. Such a person is capable of no touch pins...able to stop a strong, trained guy dead from a metre away..again no touch. This goes way beyond what most have seen/know from the current crop of known aikido teachers.

What a few people talk about here is very real and very different to what 99.999%+ of people know. My own experience of this is at a what I would say is a high level is with a little Japanese guy who weighs 43kg.....he can drop people like a stone..multiple attackers too..lol. Actually he's now present on the net...good luck in finding him. He's so good most will dismiss it as fake : )

Ueshiba's aikido does exist...in aikido too ^^ some people are only doing heiwado though....:)

All the best

Lee

Hi Lee.
I agree with you.

Regards.G.

lbb
01-26-2012, 08:17 AM
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." That's one of Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws. Nowadays it's often cited by those who wish to advance the idea that magic exists, which would probably make the author pull out his hair, assuming he were alive today and had hair to tug. In fact, Clarke was making a point about our perception of things: specifically, that our perception is constrained by the limitations in our knowledge and reasoning ability, and that perception is most decidedly not reality.

If you could show a Harrier jet to a person from the stone age, he/she would almost certainly see it as magical, or divine, or maybe demonic. The exact flavor would depend on his/her cultural matrix and its predisposition to frame the inexplicable in one way or another, but the essence is the same. If, on the other hand, you were to show a Harrier jet to someone from the late 19th or early 20th century, it would more likely be understood as some technology that was a leap or two beyond what they knew...but that was still somewhere along that path. Barring some kind of rare genius, they wouldn't be able to understand how you got from the flight technologies they knew to the Harrier jet -- but there's a good chance that they would be able to imagine that such a path existed, and moreover, that it consisted of successive steps, each building on the knowledge and understanding gained previously. And at the same time, there would have been people from that same era, even from that same culture, who thought it was all magic.

So it's really in how your mind works. To some people, pretty much anything beyond their current understanding is magic; to others, it's understandable -- it's just not understood yet. I'm firmly in the latter camp. I don't understand knot theory, but I did study linear algebra (and did a rather awesome job if I do say so myself), so I have total confidence that I could fill in the intervening steps and learn knot theory. And I don't understand much about aikido, but I do have some understanding of a few basic things, and I think I can figure out the steps as time goes on. I don't see the need to mystify any of it, and furthermore, I don't think that an endorsement IHTBF is in any way an endorsement of mysticism -- quite the opposite. It can be, and IMO often is, a copout -- an avoidance of filling in as much information as can be filled in without the "feel" dimension. But certainly, you can get to the point where only the "feel" dimension will provide that last bit of data. But it IS data, not magic.

Carl Thompson
01-26-2012, 08:34 AM
Carl. I am still missing your point. You keep trying to connect what I say with what someone else says.

Are you really missing my point or just avoiding it? I think it is you who is trying to connect what you say with what someone else says. I'm trying to either disconnect it or find out how you can justify the connection.

In my previous post I asked you to clarify one way or the other if you are just talking about your own aikido or that of others too regarding this "feeling different on touch".


When you start a thread claiming "a new phenomena" is standard to your aikido, I want to 'understand' if that phenomenon is the same one you were arguing about recently.


If not, please say so. If so, I also want to ‘understand' how you got enough information on an IHTBF phenomenon without feeling to be able to connect it to your aikido.

It's that simple.

The use of the word "understand" instead of "know" that you introduced earlier hints that you don't claim to have the exact information, in which case I think you should retract the claim that the phenomenon is "standard to" or "regularly stated in" your aikido.

Regards

Carl

graham christian
01-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Are you really missing my point or just avoiding it? I think it is you who is trying to connect what you say with what someone else says. I'm trying to either disconnect it or find out how you can justify the connection.

In my previous post I asked you to clarify one way or the other if you are just talking about your own aikido or that of others too regarding this "feeling different on touch".


When you start a thread claiming "a new phenomena" is standard to your aikido, I want to 'understand' if that phenomenon is the same one you were arguing about recently.


If not, please say so. If so, I also want to ‘understand' how you got enough information on an IHTBF phenomenon without feeling to be able to connect it to your aikido.

It's that simple.

The use of the word "understand" instead of "know" that you introduced earlier hints that you don't claim to have the exact information, in which case I think you should retract the claim that the phenomenon is "standard to" or "regularly stated in" your aikido.

Regards

Carl

You want to understand how I understand? Well I've already explained, not much else I can say.

I'd be more interested if I didn't understand.

The phenomenon of 'on touch feeling not the normal or indeed expected' applies to wherever and whenever it does. No one owns it. It applies to mine and probably to many other places.

I have experienced many different feelings from various arts and internal 'stuffs' so why wouldn't I be able to understand?

No one or style or art can feel exactly the same.

Some can feel outside the norm.

I understand the feeling of nothing, the feeling of solid when there is no force there, the feeling of heaven when the person hasn't even touched, the feeling of being dropped on by a ten ton weight even though the finger or hand is a few ounces. I understand these things and thus understand when they are talked about. Plus much more. Each one outside the norm.

I understand how each one is dependent on different principles. Also dependent on different intentions and different purposes.

Now with this much understanding I can understand where someones coming from when talking about such matters.

Understanding is a lovely thing. It relates to center actually.

The question is not therefore as to how I understand but it could be to do with how much do I understand.

Or of course you could just accept I do or reject that I do.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
01-26-2012, 03:53 PM
Ueshiba's aikido does exist...in aikido too ^^ some people are only doing heiwado though....:)

All the best

Lee

Heiwa-tchu talkin' 'bout "only heiwado?" Heiwa should be more widely practiced in my opinion!

mathewjgano
01-26-2012, 04:09 PM
You want to understand how I understand? Well I've already explained, not much else I can say.

Of course he can speak for himself, and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he wants a logical explaination for why you seem to claim to understand what other folks do without having any direct experience; given the idea that "it must be felt," but without feeling it.

I'd be more interested if I didn't understand.
I think it would be clearer to say, "...if I didn't think I understand." You may well understand exactly what he's doing, even better than he does (Carl suggested this as a possibility in fact), but all we can know over the internet is how our words and phrases match up. Everything else, no matter how probable, is speculation until we experience the proof in the pudding. Knowing Socrates/Plato as you do, you can see where there might be a concern regarding people who spend a lot of time talking about how much they know while spending very little time talking about how much they don't know. I'm guessing it has to do with this.

The phenomenon of 'on touch feeling not the normal or indeed expected' applies to wherever and whenever it does. No one owns it. It applies to mine and probably to many other places.
I agree. This is why I think even people like me who have no real skill should be able to describe whatever they practice however they want (i.e. an "internal method" is one which focuses on internal methodology, no matter how effective). However, you seem to claim to know exactly what someone else's methods are; not just what his descriptions are. I believe it is this appearance which causes so many to question your point of view.
...and again, I hope people will actually correct me where I seem mistaken.
Take care!
Matthew

graham christian
01-26-2012, 05:00 PM
Are you really missing my point or just avoiding it? I think it is you who is trying to connect what you say with what someone else says. I'm trying to either disconnect it or find out how you can justify the connection.

In my previous post I asked you to clarify one way or the other if you are just talking about your own aikido or that of others too regarding this "feeling different on touch".


When you start a thread claiming "a new phenomena" is standard to your aikido, I want to 'understand' if that phenomenon is the same one you were arguing about recently.


If not, please say so. If so, I also want to ‘understand' how you got enough information on an IHTBF phenomenon without feeling to be able to connect it to your aikido.

It's that simple.

The use of the word "understand" instead of "know" that you introduced earlier hints that you don't claim to have the exact information, in which case I think you should retract the claim that the phenomenon is "standard to" or "regularly stated in" your aikido.

Regards

Carl

Of course he can speak for himself, and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he wants a logical explaination for why you seem to claim to understand what other folks do without having any direct experience; given the idea that "it must be felt," but without feeling it.

I think it would be clearer to say, "...if I didn't think I understand." You may well understand exactly what he's doing, even better than he does (Carl suggested this as a possibility in fact), but all we can know over the internet is how our words and phrases match up. Everything else, no matter how probable, is speculation until we experience the proof in the pudding. Knowing Socrates/Plato as you do, you can see where there might be a concern regarding people who spend a lot of time talking about how much they know while spending very little time talking about how much they don't know. I'm guessing it has to do with this.

I agree. This is why I think even people like me who have no real skill should be able to describe whatever they practice however they want (i.e. an "internal method" is one which focuses on internal methodology, no matter how effective). However, you seem to claim to know exactly what someone else's methods are; not just what his descriptions are. I believe it is this appearance which causes so many to question your point of view.
...and again, I hope people will actually correct me where I seem mistaken.
Take care!
Matthew

Hi Matthew.
I thought here was the place where people shared understandings. Therefore it's not for you to know for as you said over the internet you can't know. Carl appears to want to know.

If I didn't think I understood? I know what I understand and and I know what I don't understand. Nothing to do with thinking if I do or not.

Now as for me claiming to know exactly, well take it from me if I mean know exactly then I would say know exactly. As I have never used such terms then it shows whoever thinks I said that is incorrect in their observation.

As with everyone else I have abilities as well as understandings. A person with a good or advanced ability in football could listen to someone else in football and understand; understand what they mean when they explain something. He wouldn't have to 'feel it or see it physically'.

A wise man understands a lot without having to physically see or touch. Therefore thinking you Have to feel it to understand is incorrect. To know exactly, then that is correct. But still not always true.

Recently an old student came back visiting and told me about a couple of things 'different' to what I do from an Aikido he has been doing. I told him I understand. He said 'no, it's different, that's what I'm telling you' I said 'I know, I understand.' and laughed.

Now he was confused. He proceeded to 'show me' but somehow his technique didn't work. He was confused again as it usually worked and then added 'but you'd know if you felt it from my teacher'

'I know how your teacher does it' I said and proceeded to do the same to him as he was trying to show me. It worked and very dramatically too. He got up surprised exclaiming 'you know!'

So in that case I knew without having been there or ever trained in that style.

This then opened him up to ask about other parts of his Aikido that he and others there were getting stuck on. I understood, saw the why's, corrected.

If on the other hand he had told me something he was practicing and words alone didn't give me understanding I would say I don't understand. Usually I would then get the person to show me and feel not only what they are doing but also what they are trying to do. In these cases through feeling I understand and correct.

I can watch and tell most times what a person is or isn't doing standing a few feet away, I can even feel it. I'm sure many others can too.

How many times have I heard students tell me it's quite freaky when they try something or try to disguise something and yet still find I know what they are doing.

It's not magic, it's a build up of lot's of understandings and abilities.

So excuse me for laughing or challenging statements made which say you must this or you must that in order to understand or know.

The more you understand the more you can view other things and understand. The more you know the more you can do the same.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
01-26-2012, 08:37 PM
I thought here was the place where people shared understandings. Therefore it's not for you to know for as you said over the internet you can't know. Carl appears to want to know.
It absolutely is. It's why I like it here so much. I learn a lot here. However, it's the difference between the understanding we have about the words themselves and about the meaning the speaker intends. I guess the distinction you have between what you understand and what others understand perhaps doesn't come across, or is otherwise missed...It doesn't seem to be felt, at any rate. And to be clear, I affix no fault in this. Whether it's transmission or reception makes little difference to my point of view...and I think it's a little analogous to keiko...and for me is an extention thereof. Where lessons fail I tend to speak about how uke is ultimately responsible, because I view that as the bottom line for any learner/student, but where two people are working together to achieve understanding I believe it is the responsibility of each party to help the other achieve that mutual understanding. Coincidentally, this is the essence of cooperative training in Aikido, in my meager opinion. People square off, offer something, and they each sense/feel something and respond. This goes both ways, each person feeling their way through the interaction/technique to arrive at refined (hopefully mutual) comprehension.

I know what I don't understand. Nothing to do with thinking if I do or not.

Now as for me claiming to know exactly, well take it from me if I mean know exactly then I would say know exactly. As I have never used such terms then it shows whoever thinks I said that is incorrect in their observation.
Sometimes we know we don't understand; sometimes we don't.
Not "exactly," then, but perhaps something "too close" to it. That's been my feeling regarding some of the interactions, but I probably have not been connected to them very well.

Now, all that said, I really like the language of "feeling" to describe training. To me it speaks to the fundemental aspect of learning anything: sensing...and feeling is the biggest part of visceral learning, as far as I can tell. One of my reoccuring thoughts when training is, "how did that feel? What did I feel? What else can I feel?" I often try to feel everything at once, if that makes any sense, but it's hard to make much sense of it right away, so I'm constantly trying to "feel" back and forth between "macro" and "micro;" "whole" body and various parts.
When it comes to learning about my own body, you might say I'm more interested in how I feel than in how other people feel, although really the two are interdependant.
I dunno...something like that. I feel brain-dead and like I'm not helping so...humble pie in hand I now go to feed my face.:o
Take care, and thank you for the food for thought!
Matt

Carl Thompson
01-27-2012, 12:20 AM
Of course he can speak for himself, and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he wants a logical explaination for why you seem to claim to understand what other folks do without having any direct experience; given the idea that "it must be felt," but without feeling it.
No need for correction. That's the crux of what I'm asking Graham to do. Thanks.

Graham, I would be grateful if you could answer me this time in a simple survey-form. There are only 5 questions which shouldn't take more than a minute to answer. I apologise that a few strictly "yes" or "no" answers are required but in common with many surveys, I'll leave a space at the end for extra comments. If you have to skip a question because you can't answer "yes" or "no" you can explain why there.

Note: I'm specifically aiming this survey-formatted info-request at the OP. However as long as it doesn't take over the thread, I think it would still be on topic if others wanted to answer it too (except for question 4 which is aimed specifically at Graham).

Carl

Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)


Direct hands on training (feeling)

Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)

Written material (e.g.: Aikiweb posts, books)

DVDs/Blu-ray

Psychic Powers

Other (please indicate a category - if explanation is necessary, use Q5)

(If you are Graham, please continue to Q4. Otherwise, go to Q5.)

Q4 (for Graham Only): Does the "recent phenomena" you initially described as being "standard to my aikido from day one" refer to the same phenomenon that Dan Harden and others described?
Yes / No

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

mathewjgano
01-27-2012, 01:34 AM
No need for correction.
Awesome! Thank you.
I don't get the impression Graham would mind...and I apologize if I am mistaken, Graham, but in the name of science...:D

Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes
...but I want to qualify that I believe "IHTBF" in order to have a functional understanding...amazing flukes of genius notwithstanding.

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)


Direct hands on training (feeling)

Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)

Q5. Do you have any other comments?
Indirect training can prove it has to be felt, but I presume whatever they're developing is less developed than who ever they're training with, so the proof is less pronounced.

graham christian
01-27-2012, 04:27 AM
It absolutely is. It's why I like it here so much. I learn a lot here. However, it's the difference between the understanding we have about the words themselves and about the meaning the speaker intends. I guess the distinction you have between what you understand and what others understand perhaps doesn't come across, or is otherwise missed...It doesn't seem to be felt, at any rate. And to be clear, I affix no fault in this. Whether it's transmission or reception makes little difference to my point of view...and I think it's a little analogous to keiko...and for me is an extention thereof. Where lessons fail I tend to speak about how uke is ultimately responsible, because I view that as the bottom line for any learner/student, but where two people are working together to achieve understanding I believe it is the responsibility of each party to help the other achieve that mutual understanding. Coincidentally, this is the essence of cooperative training in Aikido, in my meager opinion. People square off, offer something, and they each sense/feel something and respond. This goes both ways, each person feeling their way through the interaction/technique to arrive at refined (hopefully mutual) comprehension.

Sometimes we know we don't understand; sometimes we don't.
Not "exactly," then, but perhaps something "too close" to it. That's been my feeling regarding some of the interactions, but I probably have not been connected to them very well.

Now, all that said, I really like the language of "feeling" to describe training. To me it speaks to the fundemental aspect of learning anything: sensing...and feeling is the biggest part of visceral learning, as far as I can tell. One of my reoccuring thoughts when training is, "how did that feel? What did I feel? What else can I feel?" I often try to feel everything at once, if that makes any sense, but it's hard to make much sense of it right away, so I'm constantly trying to "feel" back and forth between "macro" and "micro;" "whole" body and various parts.
When it comes to learning about my own body, you might say I'm more interested in how I feel than in how other people feel, although really the two are interdependant.
I dunno...something like that. I feel brain-dead and like I'm not helping so...humble pie in hand I now go to feed my face.:o
Take care, and thank you for the food for thought!
Matt

I enjoyed reading that. Well put. I like the way a lot of folks believe they don't do co operative training when of course they do. Unco-opererative training isn't training I would say. Amusing.

Regards.G.

graham christian
01-27-2012, 04:52 AM
No need for correction. That's the crux of what I'm asking Graham to do. Thanks.

Graham, I would be grateful if you could answer me this time in a simple survey-form. There are only 5 questions which shouldn't take more than a minute to answer. I apologise that a few strictly "yes" or "no" answers are required but in common with many surveys, I'll leave a space at the end for extra comments. If you have to skip a question because you can't answer "yes" or "no" you can explain why there.

Note: I'm specifically aiming this survey-formatted info-request at the OP. However as long as it doesn't take over the thread, I think it would still be on topic if others wanted to answer it too (except for question 4 which is aimed specifically at Graham).

Carl

Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)


Direct hands on training (feeling)

Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)

Written material (e.g.: Aikiweb posts, books)

DVDs/Blu-ray

Psychic Powers

Other (please indicate a category - if explanation is necessary, use Q5)

(If you are Graham, please continue to Q4. Otherwise, go to Q5.)

Q4 (for Graham Only): Does the "recent phenomena" you initially described as being "standard to my aikido from day one" refer to the same phenomenon that Dan Harden and others described?
Yes / No

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

1) Yes. They claim, they believe. They needed to obviously.

2) No. I prove nothing. They do it. They found for them it had to be felt so they are obviously right.

3) Not into proving or right or wrong. So no.

4) No. It refers to the phenomenon.

5) Yes. Know your own path and accept no substitutes. When you know what yours is then it's easy to see what isn't. No need then to be right, wrong or prove.

Regards.G.

lbb
01-27-2012, 08:22 AM
Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Neither (see below)

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
No (see below)

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
There is no method. See below.

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

In re 1: I believe that when some people say that, they are convinced that it's true (and it may be).
I believe that when other people say so, they're repeating a platitude that they have not personally experienced to be true, but that sounds good. Not speaking of anyone specific, but this is the way of humanity. Suzuki roshi said a lot of things about Zen; and Joe Hyams said a lot of similar things, but the former was a Zen master, while the latter was a dabbler amusing himself with a popular fad.

In re: 2 and 3, it's not provable either way. If I fail to learn something by a more intellectual method, and then do learn it by "feeling" it, this doesn't prove that it has to be felt in order to understand it, or even that I had to feel it in order to learn it. All I've demonstrated is that feeling it is how I did learn it. You can't prove a negative, and you can't prove that no one, no where, could ever learn IPLMNOQ except by "feeling".

Carl Thompson
01-27-2012, 08:59 AM
Thank you to both Graham and Matthew.

If you bear in mind that I made this caveat at the beginning...
I apologise that a few strictly "yes" or "no" answers are required but in common with many surveys, I'll leave a space at the end for extra comments. If you have to skip a question because you can't answer "yes" or "no" you can explain why there.
... I hope you don't mind if I shift the explanations of the requested "strictly yes or no" parts of both of your surveys to the end. It is a slight reformatting to match my original criteria that still keeps your explanations for why you chose yes/no. They are just separate for clarity.

So as long as you're okay with it, I'll take the following as your positions:

Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)


Direct hands on training (feeling)

Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

Indirect training can prove it has to be felt, but I presume whatever they're developing is less developed than who ever they're training with, so the proof is less pronounced.

Explanations (moved from the yes/no fields to match the survey format)

Regarding Q1: ...but I want to qualify that I believe "IHTBF" in order to have a functional understanding...amazing flukes of genius notwithstanding.

Thank you very much Matthew, especially for your comment in Q5.


Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
No

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
(this question only applies if you wrote "yes" to Q2 anyway, so no worries re: not answering. My bad)

Q4 (For Graham Only): Does the "recent phenomena" you initially described as being "standard to my aikido from day one" refer to the same phenomenon that Dan Harden and others described?
No

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

Yes. Know your own path and accept no substitutes. When you know what yours is then it's easy to see what isn't. No need then to be right, wrong or prove.

Explanations (moved from the yes/no fields to match the survey format):

Regarding Q1: They claim, they believe. They needed to obviously.
Regarding Q2: I prove nothing. They do it. They found for them it had to be felt so they are obviously right.
Regarding Q3: Not into proving or right or wrong. So no.
Regarding Q4: It refers to the phenomenon.

Thank you Graham! This kind of clarification is what I was asking for at the start. It helps me understand what you were saying at the start of this thread. I hope it has helped clear up a few things for you and others reading the thread too.

Carl

graham christian
01-27-2012, 10:07 AM
Thank you to both Graham and Matthew.

If you bear in mind that I made this caveat at the beginning...

... I hope you don't mind if I shift the explanations of the requested "strictly yes or no" parts of both of your surveys to the end. It is a slight reformatting to match my original criteria that still keeps your explanations for why you chose yes/no. They are just separate for clarity.

So as long as you're okay with it, I'll take the following as your positions:

Thank you very much Matthew, especially for your comment in Q5.

Thank you Graham! This kind of clarification is what I was asking for at the start. It helps me understand what you were saying at the start of this thread. I hope it has helped clear up a few things for you and others reading the thread too.

Carl

It was interesting.

It has been interesting to me that many here have said many things about 'effectiveness' and such like of my Aikido despite what I say. From this end I can't help laughing because here I am knowing and there they are presenting themselves as experts and telling me. This could lead me to believe it has to be felt, especially by those who do such, but I find that not even worth saying.

Maybe it's me but any Aikido video or other where I see something that looks 'can't be' or 'not as described' I automatically shrug and know I would have to feel it. I thought that was just normal.

Then again I have certain criteria for anyone wanting to do my Aikido so it's not a matter of because they are curious.

I was talking to a Girl a few months ago who is, or rather was a three times British Karate champion.

She was immediately interested in my views because I said to her I could 'feel' she was sad in having stopped doing it. I was more interested in her views though. She said that she had reached a good level and the competitions were just things she thought she had to do because she was meant to but found it took away from the true nature of Karate. She said also that everyone acclaimed her and friends were proud of her and all wanted her to do more and fight more and she felt like some kind of show pony or show puppet. No one was interested in the message she had to give in her view that it's not about fighting so she considered the contests give out the wrong message.

She went on to share how there's so much more to True Karate than that. Even the week before out meeting she said a past male friend of hers met her and was enthusiastically boasting how his kick felled an opponent and she told me she actually felt sorry for him and thought 'what a waste'.

I hope she gets back into it and teaches her way myself.

Regards.G.

jonreading
01-27-2012, 10:09 AM
I'm a bit mystified, but getting a bit clearer, as to what the overall scene in Aikido is. It's taken over a year of reading these posts to get a clearer picture.

At first my mere mention of spiritual led to mass attack. Now I see a lot are experiencing a new phenomenon (needs no name) and recognising there is more than what they originally thought.

I have said consistently that the spiritual, universal principles can be learned and thus Aikido better understood. This would take perceptions other than the five senses, hence feeling.

Now, in a slight change I hear 'you have to feel it'.

How many different feelings are you aware of and based on which principles? Statements like 'on touch a person feels different to normal'** is standard in my Aikido. Taught from day one.
**NOTE: The quotation (paraphrase) is attributed to Dan Hardin**

Regards.G.
Throwing and connection
...Leave budo out of it, leave waza untouched and walk up to someone and do the Ueshiba test.
Every person who so much as grabbed him to try something all said he felt different and they knew right away.
Go lay hands on someone.
If they don't feel different than normal people?
They don't know what Ueshiba was talking about
They don't know what they are talking about when it comes to aiki.
Everything else is judo or jujutsu.
...

I am trying to figure this one out...

First, let's put a name to the "new phenomenon" - internal strength, correct? Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself, right? (sorry, a little Harry Potter humor there).

Second, the OP is using "feeling" as a emotional term, not a sense - so we are not talking about something you can "feel" using the sense of touch, correct? We are not talking about the instructional request to "feel" something because it is difficult to explain.

Third, we have this observation that a component of aikido has to be physically felt (touch sensory) in order for the body to process and internalize refined aiki.

Finally, we have a claim from the OP that the observation that "feeling" (sensory?) aiki is standard practice in his aikido. Through this statement the OP is also indirectly claiming he is applying internal strength training because the origin of the quote.

I do not know if I would describe internal strength as "new" or a "phenomenon". I believe the Japanese versions of strength training existed in early aikido and have been strained out. I know of many aikido people who are looking to re-invigorate aikido with these exercises and application. Hell, I am not even sure how much of the "internal strength" strength is Chinese compared to Japanese (as those guys teach it). I would not describe what I have felt (and classified as internal strength) as "feel" in an emotive sense - the stuff is quite tangible with a direct physical body reaction. I concede that you need to train your body to be acutely aware of your body state and subtle changes that affect your body state.

In the US, I know few aikido people who actually have strong aiki. Of those with whom I have personally worked, almost all have referred to a structural strengthening as a component of their understanding of aiki. I don't think any of them have claimed they had been doing the stuff all along. If fact, some of the people are simply saying, "I cannot explain this yet, but feel this..." I think we use the qualitative statement, "feel this" to describe a body reaction that we do not know well enough to coherently explain. It is a placeholder explanation that implies "I don't have the knowledge to concisely explain this, but I want to share this experience." Forgive my incredulity, but I think the OP has some strong claims that lack sufficient evidence to support the claim. I, for instance, have a million bucks. You don't have to believe me, but I do.

I think claim series has something to be desired; less if you read additional posts. I think we maybe need to clear up our statements, inferences and claims before continuing. Also, we need to apply the 70's kung fu master translation device to about half of these posts to translate the grand master pontifications. I echo a previous post - let's be clear and concise in our writing, or wait until we can better explain what it is we are expressing. I think this thread has some interesting posts, but some of the stuff is non-coherent.

graham christian
01-27-2012, 11:11 AM
I am trying to figure this one out...

First, let's put a name to the "new phenomenon" - internal strength, correct? Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself, right? (sorry, a little Harry Potter humor there).

Second, the OP is using "feeling" as a emotional term, not a sense - so we are not talking about something you can "feel" using the sense of touch, correct? We are not talking about the instructional request to "feel" something because it is difficult to explain.

Third, we have this observation that a component of aikido has to be physically felt (touch sensory) in order for the body to process and internalize refined aiki.

Finally, we have a claim from the OP that the observation that "feeling" (sensory?) aiki is standard practice in his aikido. Through this statement the OP is also indirectly claiming he is applying internal strength training because the origin of the quote.

I do not know if I would describe internal strength as "new" or a "phenomenon". I believe the Japanese versions of strength training existed in early aikido and have been strained out. I know of many aikido people who are looking to re-invigorate aikido with these exercises and application. Hell, I am not even sure how much of the "internal strength" strength is Chinese compared to Japanese (as those guys teach it). I would not describe what I have felt (and classified as internal strength) as "feel" in an emotive sense - the stuff is quite tangible with a direct physical body reaction. I concede that you need to train your body to be acutely aware of your body state and subtle changes that affect your body state.

In the US, I know few aikido people who actually have strong aiki. Of those with whom I have personally worked, almost all have referred to a structural strengthening as a component of their understanding of aiki. I don't think any of them have claimed they had been doing the stuff all along. If fact, some of the people are simply saying, "I cannot explain this yet, but feel this..." I think we use the qualitative statement, "feel this" to describe a body reaction that we do not know well enough to coherently explain. It is a placeholder explanation that implies "I don't have the knowledge to concisely explain this, but I want to share this experience." Forgive my incredulity, but I think the OP has some strong claims that lack sufficient evidence to support the claim. I, for instance, have a million bucks. You don't have to believe me, but I do.

I think claim series has something to be desired; less if you read additional posts. I think we maybe need to clear up our statements, inferences and claims before continuing. Also, we need to apply the 70's kung fu master translation device to about half of these posts to translate the grand master pontifications. I echo a previous post - let's be clear and concise in our writing, or wait until we can better explain what it is we are expressing. I think this thread has some interesting posts, but some of the stuff is non-coherent.

Jon.
Firstly I do not call it internal strength what I do. I call it Aikido but if you need a label then it would be spiritual perception or universal perception.

Secondly, I am using feel as a sense not an emotion.

Thirdly, body touch gives physical connection, spiritual perception (feeling) at that time should have already felt but that takes development.

I make no claim on AIKI in this thread, if I did it would not be the Aiki you refer to.

Allow me to echo something too. When I mention Aikido if you don't take it as my definition of then you are importing something which isn't there. If you think I refer to Aiki then once again the same as I do not use that term and do not use the term internal either.

I often use the term spiritual and often universal. I let 'external' Aikido be what it is and 'Internal' Aikido be what it is. Mine is neither.

The constructs put on external or 'resistive' Aikido are not the constructs of mine. The constructs put on I/S are not the constructs of mine.

If they are the only two 'types' of Aikido in your Aikido experience or what you can relate to then Mine is outside of your reasoning.

Sometimes it's the reader who has to just admit 'that's different' or even that they don't understand.

To me I say it's down to acceptance. People may read what I say, which is in plain English, and then attack it, belittle it, or even change it to something else, but in my view all this means is they can't accept it. They can't accept it means what it says.(apart from the normal different definitions we all have for things)

Those who can accept it don't have a problem with it. This doesn't mean they understand or even agree but acceptance leads to understanding and so they will, by accepting, reach an understanding. That understanding may be 'Idon't believe him' it may be 'that's interesting' it may be whatever but it will be an understanding rather than a reaction.

Acceptance is part of center and being centered. In life, in the dojo, everywhere. It's universal.

Regards.G.

jonreading
01-27-2012, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the clarifications Graham. It clears up some of my confusion....

I don't want to cut into semantics, but just because you "choose" not to call what you do "internal strength" does not mean it is not internal strength. I can call a duck a goose, but that does not change what it is. I am trying to ascertain what you are claiming to do, not what you call it. Your post and your subsequent responses strongly indicate that you possess "aiki" in your aikido. I introduced the term "aiki" because that is, of course, the focal point of [our] training, to express aiki.

My point was that I do not hear the phrase "you have to feel this" as instructional curriculum for a extra-sensory experience. When I hear the phrase it usually is applied as an instructional aid to something which [currently] defies verbal explanation. In the aikido in which I am immersed, aiki is demonstrative, real and not extra-sensory. Your expansion of the phrase as a instructional experience into a 6th perception, not classically defined (as Lynn pointed out), is a new adventure to me.

Further, I was explaining that my experiences are that very few aikido people have the ability to constantly and consistently express aiki in their aikido. I know many friends who are training to realize that expression. When you say things like what you posted in this thread, I am sincerely trying to comprehend if that piece is actually part of the puzzle.

When I mention Aikido if you don't take it as my definition of then you are importing something which isn't there. If you think I refer to Aiki then once again the same as I do not use that term and do not use the term internal either.

This, in part, is part of my confusion. You have your own definition for many things. We sometimes tease you about the "Graham Lexicon" that is required to translate your posts. You could have been a cryptologist for the Allies in WWII...

Part of what you are saying is true, it does come down to acceptance. Right now, I do not even understand the premise you are presenting, let alone reaching a level of discussion that would provoke me to accept or reject your premise.

After your clarifications, it sounds like you are presenting the claim that "spiritual feeling" is required for proper aikido. Is that more accurate?

graham christian
01-27-2012, 03:46 PM
Thanks for the clarifications Graham. It clears up some of my confusion....

I don't want to cut into semantics, but just because you "choose" not to call what you do "internal strength" does not mean it is not internal strength. I can call a duck a goose, but that does not change what it is. I am trying to ascertain what you are claiming to do, not what you call it. Your post and your subsequent responses strongly indicate that you possess "aiki" in your aikido. I introduced the term "aiki" because that is, of course, the focal point of [our] training, to express aiki.

My point was that I do not hear the phrase "you have to feel this" as instructional curriculum for a extra-sensory experience. When I hear the phrase it usually is applied as an instructional aid to something which [currently] defies verbal explanation. In the aikido in which I am immersed, aiki is demonstrative, real and not extra-sensory. Your expansion of the phrase as a instructional experience into a 6th perception, not classically defined (as Lynn pointed out), is a new adventure to me.

Further, I was explaining that my experiences are that very few aikido people have the ability to constantly and consistently express aiki in their aikido. I know many friends who are training to realize that expression. When you say things like what you posted in this thread, I am sincerely trying to comprehend if that piece is actually part of the puzzle.

This, in part, is part of my confusion. You have your own definition for many things. We sometimes tease you about the "Graham Lexicon" that is required to translate your posts. You could have been a cryptologist for the Allies in WWII...

Part of what you are saying is true, it does come down to acceptance. Right now, I do not even understand the premise you are presenting, let alone reaching a level of discussion that would provoke me to accept or reject your premise.

After your clarifications, it sounds like you are presenting the claim that "spiritual feeling" is required for proper aikido. Is that more accurate?

Thank you Jon for a very nice reply.

In answer to your question re: spiritual then yes. This is what I 'claim' and have stated on many an occasion. Spiritual perception and thus feeling I would call it rather than just feeling.

Spiritually you can perceive the motion of anothers mind, spiritually you can perceive the space of another and your own, spiritually you can perceive the circles and lines extant in technical Aikido. When you perceive them you get a resultant feeling, thus you get used to it and learn.

Thus it works in alignment with rather than different to the technical, in fact once gotten each 'seen' principle at work is now very real and usable and also seen in life and living.

Thus I can say as I have before that I think along the lines of principles rather than intellectual data.

The principle of inflow outflow can be seen physically by the effect of a pebble dropped into a still pond. It can be felt physically by tuning into and studying breathing. The spiritual workings of this principle can only be perceived spiritually and thus recognised universally. Ego, the mind, the body cannot do this. The body can feel effects of, the mind can think about and 'reason' and intellectualize but neither can do it. Spirit can do it and share it with the mind.

In my Aikido for instance I get people to follow these universal principles whether they believe them or not. I get them to feel them and study them and use them. Thus they at first try to follow what I say, keep at it and then experience it working with the desired effect. They are always surprised, especially in the beginning, for it appears not to fit in with logic. Yet they felt it, they did it, they experienced the result. That feeling or the accompanying feelings that went with their action were different to what they are used to as well and hence they find it fascinating.

As they progress the mind comes to terms and understands which shows me spiritual comes first in my way.

All this is subservient to and in my opinion and teaching of any true worth only if it follows four basic truths pertinent to Aikido.

These four basic truths I may call the pillars of My Aikido and they are Love, Goodness, True Self (spirit) and Faith.(confidence if you like)

Heart, soul, self and faith.

Therefore if a person does not have the purposes which fit in with the principles of these four things they cannot do my Aikido and in my opinion cannot fully appreciate the fullness of Aikido.

So that's a bit more outline as to how I approach it, see it, teach it.

For me there is no such thing as Ueshibas Aikido for Aikido has always and will always be there for it is universal truth. There is however Aikido which Ueshiba saw and practiced and passed on as a Master of the art.

Regards.G.

David Orange
01-27-2012, 06:34 PM
As to me needing to train with someone else or someone else needing to train with me I see no need.If a person is stuck or looking for help then fine, anything else, not interested really.

Tell, 'em, Graham. You can tell Dan that you can do everything he can do and no one should tell you you have to prove it. You can just take credit for it.

Of course, when Dan said what he could do, he was always willing to prove it, but that's not always necessary to get credit for being able to do it.

I once met Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was big and impressive-looking, but it didn't bother me. I told him, "I can lift as much weight as you."

He said, "Come to the gym and let's see."

I said, "Nah...I do it a spiritual way, so I don't need to prove it."

I met Mikhail Baryshnikhov and said, "You're a great dancer, but I can do anything you can do."

He said, "Oh, wonderful. We need a male dancer for our next show. Come to the studio and let's rehearse together."

I said, "Nah...I do a spiritual kind of dance. You don't need to see it."

He said, "Actually...I have seen a video of your dancing and, frankly...it wasn't so good."

I just snorted and said, "You don't understand." And that was good enough.

I met Miles Davis once and said, "Your music is pretty good, but I play the trumpet as well as you do."

His eyebrows went up and he said, "Strange I've never heard of you. But since you're good, come by after my set tonight and we'll jam."

I said, "Nah...I play a spiritual trumpet. I don't have to show you."

So I can blow the horn like Miles, lift weight like Arnie and dance like Mihail, but if anyone wants me to prove it...they're just being unspiritual.

I won't even bother you with what happened when I met the Dalai Lama, but I can tell you, he was impressed.

I'm sure Dan would shut up if you were to put hands on him, but I know that what you do is spiritual, so there's really no need for you to do that.

Of course, of all the budo men (and women) I've ever met, if anyone ever told them they could do something in budo, the budo folks always said, "Show me. Do it on me."

Talk is fine, but the rule of budo has always been "Put up or shut up."

You should think about that.

Cheers.

David

David Orange
01-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Carl. I am still missing your point. You keep trying to connect what I say with what someone else says.

Maybe it's because so much of what you say is in reply to other people and amounts to "I do that, too."

2) It is natural to think that if they over there feel what they describe as nothing and my students feel what they describe as nothing then we could be doing the same thing. On further inspection though I doubt it.

Yeah, well...who are your students?

I know that people who train with Dan range from beginner to shihan in aikido, most having some 20 years or more of training in aikido, many in judo, karate, jujutsu and MMA. Plus, he goes to Japan regularly and trains with some of the most renowned martial artists in that country.

From what I've seen on your videos, your students don't appear to have that kind of experience. When the kinds of people who describe Dan use the same words to describe you, then I'll be impressed. And when you can show that your "stuff" has any effect at all on Dan, I'll really be impressed. But...why do I get the feeling that that will never happen?

Since you are making your remarks before thousands of advanced budoka, however (and many more thousands of students with very little background), I'd caution you that you're only making yourself appear, frankly, ignorant and extremely egotistical. In fact, having stated that you accrue no karma, you should really think deeply about that because you may actually meet some of these people one day and you will realize that you have not transcended the wheel.

David

graham christian
01-28-2012, 01:54 AM
Maybe it's because so much of what you say is in reply to other people and amounts to "I do that, too."

Yeah, well...who are your students?

I know that people who train with Dan range from beginner to shihan in aikido, most having some 20 years or more of training in aikido, many in judo, karate, jujutsu and MMA. Plus, he goes to Japan regularly and trains with some of the most renowned martial artists in that country.

From what I've seen on your videos, your students don't appear to have that kind of experience. When the kinds of people who describe Dan use the same words to describe you, then I'll be impressed. And when you can show that your "stuff" has any effect at all on Dan, I'll really be impressed. But...why do I get the feeling that that will never happen?

Since you are making your remarks before thousands of advanced budoka, however (and many more thousands of students with very little background), I'd caution you that you're only making yourself appear, frankly, ignorant and extremely egotistical. In fact, having stated that you accrue no karma, you should really think deeply about that because you may actually meet some of these people one day and you will realize that you have not transcended the wheel.

David

Thank you for whatever it is you feel you are offering. Very dramatic.

I do not compare myself to anyone or say I do something someone else does their way. Only ego would say I do my friend.

I don't want to impress you or anybody thank you. Why come on here and mention another? Is he now your method of 'knowing'? I doubt he wants to be.

You do not know me. You have seen some videos which show what? One hundredth or maybe one thousanth of what I do? Hmmm. I thought it was claimed that you can't know by watching a video?

In your world it appears to me that you can insult, put down, accuse, and it's all fine until someone tells you something good about me. Well my friend, enjoy it, I'm sure you must get some pleasure out of it.

Nice story though about Arnie.

Regards.G.

graham christian
01-28-2012, 02:51 AM
Tell, 'em, Graham. You can tell Dan that you can do everything he can do and no one should tell you you have to prove it. You can just take credit for it.

Of course, when Dan said what he could do, he was always willing to prove it, but that's not always necessary to get credit for being able to do it.

I once met Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was big and impressive-looking, but it didn't bother me. I told him, "I can lift as much weight as you."

He said, "Come to the gym and let's see."

I said, "Nah...I do it a spiritual way, so I don't need to prove it."

I met Mikhail Baryshnikhov and said, "You're a great dancer, but I can do anything you can do."

He said, "Oh, wonderful. We need a male dancer for our next show. Come to the studio and let's rehearse together."

I said, "Nah...I do a spiritual kind of dance. You don't need to see it."

He said, "Actually...I have seen a video of your dancing and, frankly...it wasn't so good."

I just snorted and said, "You don't understand." And that was good enough.

I met Miles Davis once and said, "Your music is pretty good, but I play the trumpet as well as you do."

His eyebrows went up and he said, "Strange I've never heard of you. But since you're good, come by after my set tonight and we'll jam."

I said, "Nah...I play a spiritual trumpet. I don't have to show you."

So I can blow the horn like Miles, lift weight like Arnie and dance like Mihail, but if anyone wants me to prove it...they're just being unspiritual.

I won't even bother you with what happened when I met the Dalai Lama, but I can tell you, he was impressed.

I'm sure Dan would shut up if you were to put hands on him, but I know that what you do is spiritual, so there's really no need for you to do that.

Of course, of all the budo men (and women) I've ever met, if anyone ever told them they could do something in budo, the budo folks always said, "Show me. Do it on me."

Talk is fine, but the rule of budo has always been "Put up or shut up."

You should think about that.

Cheers.

David

David. Of all the 'budo' men and women I have ever met, any that said show me I have shown. One rule of budo is also mind who you say put up or shut up to. Think about that too.

As this thread is about feeling I'll hazard a guess that you are expressing some feeling. Well done.

In real life rather than the fantasy you portray above a person interested in or doing some kind of martial art who I meet and get into conversation with is generally, in fact 99% of the time very understanding and appreciative. Most very honest too, that's why I find this forum strange at times. When I tell another in real life what I do and they share with me what they do they are really up front. They say straight away either 'I've never really gotten into the spiritual side' or 'That's interesting, I'm more into the rough and tumble' or other real things. No conflict, no prove it, no third degree interrogation of each other. Real.

I would say maybe 25% of those times lead to a little demo of some aspect. That's real.

Now as for peers and such like if you believe that is real then good for you. There is a thread on testing going right now, maybe you would enjoy that thread.

In my view a true budo person is testing themselves every day and it has nothing to do with peers. That is real and as real as it gets. A good musician is one who has done the same, continually improved and on his journey put himself in places to test himself and then moved on to his next challenge and so the cycle goes.

I don't think I have put down any other art on this forum or persons way of Aikido or method whether they are well held or not, famous or unknown,(except Dan once, which was rectified personally) I doubt you can say the same.

So you cannot be upset by me saying against someone only by me saying about me. I find that strange.

Regards.G.

Carl Thompson
01-28-2012, 05:01 AM
It has been interesting to me that many here have said many things about 'effectiveness' and such like of my Aikido despite what I say. From this end I can't help laughing because here I am knowing and there they are presenting themselves as experts and telling me. This could lead me to believe it has to be felt, especially by those who do such, but I find that not even worth saying.
What's interesting is that although people might say your aikido looks ineffective from your videos, you can also claim "it has to be felt". People can't really know for sure until they feel it. But of course people who claim this kind of thing who are willing to let their skills actually be felt are less likely to look like they're merely posturing.
People may read what I say, which is in plain English, and then attack it, belittle it, or even change it to something else, but in my view all this means is they can't accept it.
I think you are saying you write in plain English because I asked you to answer in plain English earlier in the thread.
I know that people who train with Dan range from beginner to shihan in aikido, most having some 20 years or more of training in aikido, many in judo, karate, jujutsu and MMA. Plus, he goes to Japan regularly and trains with some of the most renowned martial artists in that country.
If at all possible, I'd be interested in more information on Dan or the renowned martial artists in Japan.

Carl

PS: Thanks to Mary Malmros for also completing the survey.

graham christian
01-28-2012, 06:19 AM
What's interesting is that although people might say your aikido looks ineffective from your videos, you can also claim "it has to be felt". People can't really know for sure until they feel it. But of course people who claim this kind of thing who are willing to let their skills actually be felt are less likely to look like they're merely posturing.

I think you are saying you write in plain English because I asked you to answer in plain English earlier in the thread.

If at all possible, I'd be interested in more information on Dan or the renowned martial artists in Japan.

Carl

PS: Thanks to Mary Malmros for also completing the survey.

Hi Carl. If posturing is how some see it then I prefer that for in truth it is merely sharing.

This is the internet where data is shared, that's all. Plain English is not a reference to you by the way. You asked, we stayed with it, we clarified. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, back on point, what did you feel from Endo Sensei?

Regards.G.

Carl Thompson
01-29-2012, 07:26 AM
Hi Carl. If posturing is how some see it then I prefer that for in truth it is merely sharing.

This is the internet where data is shared, that's all. Plain English is not a reference to you by the way. You asked, we stayed with it, we clarified. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, back on point, what did you feel from Endo Sensei?

Regards.G.

Just to be clear, I did not intend to give my own opinion about your aikido with my previous post. I think the truth of what you are sharing would be more convincing if you trained with others, but it is your business if you choose not to do so.

Regarding what I felt from Endo Shihan, as Carsten described before, it felt like nothing, but in my case this was because nothing happened. I would like to stress that it was only at a seminar and I only got to take ukemi twice. I was unsure of what was being worked on at the time. Some people looked like they were taking dives for him (not necessarily sensei's fault) while others looked like they were giving meaningful attacks and genuinely resisting him. Whatever was required, I got it wrong and got a telling off for my trouble and then someone came over to teach me a "lesson" afterwards (again not sensei's fault). I'd still like to get a better idea of what he's doing but I haven't had a chance to try his Hombu class yet.

I wrote a bit about it on Aikiweb already:
I attended a seminar by Endo Shihan in Nagoya shortly before the one being discussed here, so I've been finding this thread very interesting reading. In my case I think I did my research and endeavoured to go along with an open mind, eager to see what different insights this shihan had to offer. However, I also had a few problems understanding what the point of everything was.

I realise his regular keiko may be different and I shall try to make it to one of his classes at the hombu sometime, but I feel there have been some valid points here regarding the kind of training he does during seminars. I found that sometimes I just didn't know which way people wanted me to go and I wasn't being made to go anywhere. I understand that this kind of practice may be intended as some kind of subtle movement-teaching kata, where each acts their part, but no one adequately showed me my role in it.

Carl
Hi Carl,

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You are saying that as UKE, you were not made to go anywhere? So would it be correct to say that you think that correct aikido practice consists of tori making uke do something/go somewhere? If this is correct, what did you do in that situation as uke? Did you stop moving?
I tried to leave what I thought was correct aikido behind. I went to the seminar to do Endo Shihan's aikido, whatever that might entail. One of the problems I had as uke was understanding just what that was, whether I was supposed to be getting made to move or whether I should purposely move to help my partner as part of the training.

Hi Carl, during the course of a normal keiko just about anywhere, isn't there a mix of the two?

Best,
RonYeah, definitely. I'm not demanding absolutes. I hope I wasn't demanding or expecting anything. Maybe next time someone like me blunders through one of these seminars, someone might say "ah, you are having the same problems as that stumpy guy with the beard off Aikiweb. You need to do this and this. Resist/don't resist me here and help/don't help me when I do this by moving/not moving here."

graham christian
01-29-2012, 07:39 AM
Just to be clear, I did not intend to give my own opinion about your aikido with my previous post. I think the truth of what you are sharing would be more convincing if you trained with others, but it is your business if you choose not to do so.

Regarding what I felt from Endo Shihan, as Carsten described before, it felt like nothing, but in my case this was because nothing happened. I would like to stress that it was only at a seminar and I only got to take ukemi twice. I was unsure of what was being worked on at the time. Some people looked like they were taking dives for him (not necessarily sensei's fault) while others looked like they were giving meaningful attacks and genuinely resisting him. Whatever was required, I got it wrong and got a telling off for my trouble and then someone came over to teach me a "lesson" afterwards (again not sensei's fault). I'd still like to get a better idea of what he's doing but I haven't had a chance to try his Hombu class yet.

I wrote a bit about it on Aikiweb already:

Thank you Carl. I found that very interesting.

Regards.G.

gates
01-29-2012, 08:07 AM
Hi Graham,
I recently attended a special IP seminar on another continent (not cheap).
The feeling was literally jaw dropping for some, for me it was a little more down to earth, but highly entertaining and informative in a way words couldn't ever describe. Overall I walked away with a great deal more understanding than I walked in with. Physical feelings are hard to explain in words, so why bother? Explantains of physiological mechanisms although difficult, can be done to some extent. But that won't help explain the feeling, feelings need to be felt.
Off topic (Much of what you speak of in your aikido practice seems closer to kinomichi, an aikido derivative, quite different to aikido mainstream. Have you heard of kinomichi?
Keith

graham christian
01-29-2012, 08:25 AM
Hi Graham,
I recently attended a special IP seminar on another continent (not cheap).
The feeling was literally jaw dropping for some, for me it was a little more down to earth, but highly entertaining and informative in a way words couldn't ever describe. Overall I walked away with a great deal more understanding than I walked in with. Physical feelings are hard to explain in words, so why bother? Explantains of physiological mechanisms although difficult, can be done to some extent. But that won't help explain the feeling, feelings need to be felt.
Off topic (Much of what you speak of in your aikido practice seems closer to kinomichi, an aikido derivative, quite different to aikido mainstream. Have you heard of kinomichi?
Keith

Hi Keith.
Glad you liked it. Reading of your experience there was also very interesting.

Funny you mention Kinomichi, yes I do know of it. Noro was my teachers teacher. He was very 'direct' in those days. Having seen more up to date videos of his Kinomichi I suppose there could be some similarities, yes. There must be some influence through lineage. Very astute of you Keith.

Regards.G.

gates
01-29-2012, 08:35 AM
Graham,
The commonality with your aikido and kinomichi is visible in your physical waza AND in the writing and philosophical, spiritual emphasis.
Your sensei didn't adopt the name change?

graham christian
01-29-2012, 09:05 AM
Graham,
The commonality with your aikido and kinomichi is visible in your physical waza AND in the writing and philosophical, spiritual emphasis.
Your sensei didn't adopt the name change?

Never read his thoughts though. My teacher adopted a name for his Aikido and went independent too. He called it Zen Shin Kan Aikido. Based in North Watford. Still going today, as a private dojo.

He has a few students who went on to be teachers in various parts of the world. My co-teacher and friend recently visited him and helped him through an illness. All good.

Regards.G.

gates
01-29-2012, 10:15 AM
I realise we are drifting. Sorry folks.
The reason I ask because at some point is if the focus of the training or the methodology changes significantly then a name change can be useful to stop silly arguments by acknowledging a differentiation. For instance here I suspect people would react differently if you said you did kinomichi or used a label other than aikido.

Shin seems to be a major emphasis in kinomichi too.

David Orange
01-29-2012, 10:25 AM
In your world it appears to me that you can insult, put down, accuse, and it's all fine until someone tells you something good about me. Well my friend, enjoy it, I'm sure you must get some pleasure out of it.

Graham, it's not my intention to insult you and I haven't "accused" you of anything. But you have presented this "stuff" as aikido and it seriously contradicts any aikido I have ever seen anywhere. Then you call it "spiritual" but I find it difficult to consider appropriation of a well-established art as "spiritual" when you badly misrepresent that honorable art.

I do consider you to be a rather "nice" guy and I admire how you "usually" remain unruffled, but the ura peeks out from time to time, revealing that, below the surface your motivations are not so consistent with your claims.

Nice story though about Arnie.

I made it up.

In fact, I did meet Arnie once, but we didn't talk about weight lifting. I asked him about the movie he was then filming in my hometown. This was in 1975, shortly before he became a household name.

Cheers.

David

graham christian
01-29-2012, 11:46 AM
Graham, it's not my intention to insult you and I haven't "accused" you of anything. But you have presented this "stuff" as aikido and it seriously contradicts any aikido I have ever seen anywhere. Then you call it "spiritual" but I find it difficult to consider appropriation of a well-established art as "spiritual" when you badly misrepresent that honorable art.

I do consider you to be a rather "nice" guy and I admire how you "usually" remain unruffled, but the ura peeks out from time to time, revealing that, below the surface your motivations are not so consistent with your claims.

I made it up.

In fact, I did meet Arnie once, but we didn't talk about weight lifting. I asked him about the movie he was then filming in my hometown. This was in 1975, shortly before he became a household name.

Cheers.

David

I'm sure it does contradict any Aikido you have ever experienced. However some folks recognise some similarities with some other Aikido. As keith just pointed out to do with Kinomichi. Others have pointed out similarities with Ki Aikido. Others have recognised similarities with their own Aikido. Never have I said or presented it as what is considered 'mainstream' Aikido.

There are a lot of other Aikido worlds out there not part of the mainstream. My teacher has been private for round about 40 years. He didn't like the politics.

His students over that period are dotted around many places, some with their own set ups and own name.

He is well known by the local police force for over the years teaching some Aikido but even more well known for helping those who suffer stress induced problems due to the job. Lot's of things happen and are done outside of our worlds and our experiences.

I like your comment about 'beneath the surface' though. I look forward to them in myself and thus find new parts of me that need 'clearing' It fits well with my way and my way of Aikido too. Any thoughts or feelings or actions or communications that don't match with my principles and way are thus my next lesson to deal with on my path.

Motivations are the cornerstone of my particular way. This in fact is the discipline. How to accomplish it in action or indeed communication is the challenge.

Arnie was brought up somewhere near here but I never met him. My friend who teaches with me was into body building and body building competitions at the time of Arnie too, don't think he met him either but I might be wrong there.

Have fun.

Regards.G..

David Orange
01-29-2012, 12:10 PM
I'm sure it does contradict any Aikido you have ever experienced. However some folks recognise some similarities with some other Aikido.

"I have hearsay and speculation, your honor. Those are kinds of evidence..."

As keith just pointed out to do with Kinomichi.

Which is not "aikido," but "kido," Kiddo.

When I say "aikido," of course, I mean something that Morihei Ueshiba would at least recognize.

Others have pointed out similarities with Ki Aikido. Others have recognised similarities with their own Aikido. Never have I said or presented it as what is considered 'mainstream' Aikido.

Yeah. The hats were pretty much a clue to that.

There are a lot of other Aikido worlds out there not part of the mainstream. My teacher has been private for round about 40 years. He didn't like the politics.

I can understand not liking the politics and I can understand going your own way...as long as you don't sever the root...as you appear to have done. And that root is not just the appearance of the techniques but the spirit of stepping up, dropping the passive-aggressiveness and being willing to admit that others may know something a lot deeper than you.

His students over that period are dotted around many places, some with their own set ups and own name.

Yeah...and his roots in aikido are...what? Did he train with Kenshiro Abbe or Tadashi Abe? Did he train with Henry Ellis or Ken Williams? Or...maybe Jack Poole?

I like your comment about 'beneath the surface' though. I look forward to them in myself and thus find new parts of me that need 'clearing' It fits well with my way and my way of Aikido too. Any thoughts or feelings or actions or communications that don't match with my principles and way are thus my next lesson to deal with on my path.

Very good, then. If your power were the "transparent power" type of thing, you wouldn't find my comments insulting. They would just pass through. Dan is that way. He recognizes when someone is trying to insult him, but he has too much going on to let it stick to him or inside him.

Motivations are the cornerstone of my particular way. This in fact is the discipline. How to accomplish it in action or indeed communication is the challenge.

Well, what I've been getting from your communications is an activity that has pretty much nothing to do with aikido except to appropriate the name. So much of the trouble would disappear from your way if you didn't call you own, idiosyncratic "way" aikido.

Or maybe you could get with someone who can show you actual aikido. Henry Ellis, for instance. Or Mark Freeman, who has offered to drop by.

Best to you.

David

graham christian
01-29-2012, 12:41 PM
"I have hearsay and speculation, your honor. Those are kinds of evidence..."

Which is not "aikido," but "kido," Kiddo.

When I say "aikido," of course, I mean something that Morihei Ueshiba would at least recognize.

Yeah. The hats were pretty much a clue to that.

I can understand not liking the politics and I can understand going your own way...as long as you don't sever the root...as you appear to have done. And that root is not just the appearance of the techniques but the spirit of stepping up, dropping the passive-aggressiveness and being willing to admit that others may know something a lot deeper than you.

Yeah...and his roots in aikido are...what? Did he train with Kenshiro Abbe or Tadashi Abe? Did he train with Henry Ellis or Ken Williams? Or...maybe Jack Poole?

Very good, then. If your power were the "transparent power" type of thing, you wouldn't find my comments insulting. They would just pass through. Dan is that way. He recognizes when someone is trying to insult him, but he has too much going on to let it stick to him or inside him.

Well, what I've been getting from your communications is an activity that has pretty much nothing to do with aikido except to appropriate the name. So much of the trouble would disappear from your way if you didn't call you own, idiosyncratic "way" aikido.

Or maybe you could get with someone who can show you actual aikido. Henry Ellis, for instance. Or Mark Freeman, who has offered to drop by.

Best to you.

David

There you go again telling me about me and what I should do. Ha, ha. You do luv it.

My teacher trained with Noro and Tohei. If that's not enough for your consideration then so be it.

Your invite is for you alone, I look foreward to meeting you.

Mark and I have already communicated and will be meeting very soon. One thing is for sure, we will have fun.

I will be only to happy to train with him and give reality to him on what I do. Such a person I will indeed be honoured and privilaged to meet and share two way with. And may we both learn from each other.

Regards.G.

Mark Freeman
01-29-2012, 05:49 PM
Yeah...and his roots in aikido are...what? Did he train with Kenshiro Abbe or Tadashi Abe? Did he train with Henry Ellis or Ken Williams? Or...maybe Jack Poole?

Hi David,

I'm guessing (hoping) that you are using the name of Mr Poole in an ironic sense? I can't imagine why you would be using it otherwise:confused:

Or maybe you could get with someone who can show you actual aikido. Henry Ellis, for instance. Or Mark Freeman, who has offered to drop by.

I hope to be seeing Graham in the not too distant future. I am happy to practice with anyone. As for me being able to show 'actual' aikido...not sure about that... I can only show him 'my' aikido, which is not the same as Henry Ellis' aikido. Personally I don't feel the need to prove anything, I do however have a desire to find the truth out for myself. One of the main reasons to quit working and travel out into the world looking for it, for some time (for that read, 'as long as the money lasts').

regards,

Mark
p.s. a good teacher doesn't automatically guarantee a good student

David Orange
01-30-2012, 12:24 AM
I'm guessing (hoping) that you are using the name of Mr Poole in an ironic sense? I can't imagine why you would be using it otherwise:confused:

Mark, I really know little about Mr. Poole except what I've heard from T. Rex Sensei and the documentation on his website. So I guess you'd have to call it an ironic usage. But I did wonder to what UK aikido lineage Graham has connections. Not that I would know many of them at all. But if he could explain how this aikido comes to him from Ueshiba....it would be helpful.

BTW, did you see the thread on "the sock of ki"? It's here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20775


I hope to be seeing Graham in the not too distant future. I am happy to practice with anyone. As for me being able to show 'actual' aikido...not sure about that... I can only show him 'my' aikido, which is not the same as Henry Ellis' aikido. Personally I don't feel the need to prove anything, I do however have a desire to find the truth out for myself.

Fantastic. My regards to you both. Would you remind me of your own lineage?

The spirit of yoseikan has always been "find out for yourself what is true". So I applaud your efforts. That's exactly why the Japanese martial artist's response to any claim has always been "Misete!"--"Show me!". The were looking for the truth and it was hard to come by. And where there was little entertainment, anything new was also interesting.

If you made a claim and they said "Show me" and you did but it wasn't effective on them, ,they had no respect for it. But they would at least respect your willingness to step up and put your claims on the line and they might teach you if your ego wasn't too big to learn from them

If you made some claim and they said "Misete!" and you wouldn't back up your claim, they might get very angry. It wasn't like you could go a lot of places. You were in a very local village, so you couldn't get away from anything you said in this little circle of hard-working, strong, high-spirited and easily irritated people. And you were going to stay pretty much around them for most of your life. And if they took a bad attitude toward you, it could fester in that little town. And many fights started that way. So people learned not to make claims if they weren't willing to show their ability. And out of a couple of thousand years, the Japanese people developed pretty much a culture of speaking very politely and modestly.

The popular image is that the Japanese have bred the impolite and crude and harsh out of their culture, but they adhere to that today not because it's bred out fo them but because it is still very active among them. Anything you say will lead to a thousand repercussions and embarrassments. That is still a very real and potent element of daily life among Japanese.

And remember that in the beginning the "Show me!" is said in a real spirit of sharing. Meaning "Share that with me!" though it might also of course mean, "Prove it!" But if two people are on friendly conversational terms and one of them makes a strange claim, if the listener really gets the idea that the speaker could possibly really have this ability, he will enthusiastically say "Show me!" The more real power and experience he has, the more likely he is to have the "Prove it!" attitude. But the beginning is usually friendly enthusiasm.

If anyone has great ability, budo people share that root desire to learn it also. Budo is certainly a quest for wonders. Still, after awhile, one gets a sense of what's likely and what's not, and can develop a pretty good BS meter, so...Graham just seems to set off the meters of a lot of pretty experienced people. Is what I'm saying.

I'm One of the main reasons to quit working and travel out into the world looking for it, for some time (for that read, 'as long as the money lasts').

You posted a general plan for that a bit back, didn't you? Are you really doing that? How old are you? It seems great to do it and I wish you luck. Please let me know if you get into the southeast US.

I'm p.s. a good teacher doesn't automatically guarantee a good student

Well, I'm proof of that. But having a better teacher does give you a wider view of the world of martial arts and does at least give you the experience of seeing someone who really does have deep ability. My survival all these years (56 so far) has been because of God's protection and not because of my skill. But God also put me with Mochizuki to see great ability and experience great character over some years. I remain constantly grateful for that experience and more amazed as the years go by that I actually had it.

Let me know when you're coming.

David

sakumeikan
01-30-2012, 05:57 AM
Mark, I really know little about Mr. Poole except what I've heard from T. Rex Sensei and the documentation on his website. So I guess you'd have to call it an ironic usage. But I did wonder to what UK aikido lineage Graham has connections. Not that I would know many of them at all. But if he could explain how this aikido comes to him from Ueshiba....it would be helpful.

BTW, did you see the thread on "the sock of ki"? It's here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20775

Fantastic. My regards to you both. Would you remind me of your own lineage?

The spirit of yoseikan has always been "find out for yourself what is true". So I applaud your efforts. That's exactly why the Japanese martial artist's response to any claim has always been "Misete!"--"Show me!". The were looking for the truth and it was hard to come by. And where there was little entertainment, anything new was also interesting.

If you made a claim and they said "Show me" and you did but it wasn't effective on them, ,they had no respect for it. But they would at least respect your willingness to step up and put your claims on the line and they might teach you if your ego wasn't too big to learn from them

If you made some claim and they said "Misete!" and you wouldn't back up your claim, they might get very angry. It wasn't like you could go a lot of places. You were in a very local village, so you couldn't get away from anything you said in this little circle of hard-working, strong, high-spirited and easily irritated people. And you were going to stay pretty much around them for most of your life. And if they took a bad attitude toward you, it could fester in that little town. And many fights started that way. So people learned not to make claims if they weren't willing to show their ability. And out of a couple of thousand years, the Japanese people developed pretty much a culture of speaking very politely and modestly.

The popular image is that the Japanese have bred the impolite and crude and harsh out of their culture, but they adhere to that today not because it's bred out fo them but because it is still very active among them. Anything you say will lead to a thousand repercussions and embarrassments. That is still a very real and potent element of daily life among Japanese.

And remember that in the beginning the "Show me!" is said in a real spirit of sharing. Meaning "Share that with me!" though it might also of course mean, "Prove it!" But if two people are on friendly conversational terms and one of them makes a strange claim, if the listener really gets the idea that the speaker could possibly really have this ability, he will enthusiastically say "Show me!" The more real power and experience he has, the more likely he is to have the "Prove it!" attitude. But the beginning is usually friendly enthusiasm.

If anyone has great ability, budo people share that root desire to learn it also. Budo is certainly a quest for wonders. Still, after awhile, one gets a sense of what's likely and what's not, and can develop a pretty good BS meter, so...Graham just seems to set off the meters of a lot of pretty experienced people. Is what I'm saying.

You posted a general plan for that a bit back, didn't you? Are you really doing that? How old are you? It seems great to do it and I wish you luck. Please let me know if you get into the southeast US.

Well, I'm proof of that. But having a better teacher does give you a wider view of the world of martial arts and does at least give you the experience of seeing someone who really does have deep ability. My survival all these years (56 so far) has been because of God's protection and not because of my skill. But God also put me with Mochizuki to see great ability and experience great character over some years. I remain constantly grateful for that experience and more amazed as the years go by that I actually had it.

Let me know when you're coming.

David
Dear David,
Without entering into the Jack Poole debate perhaps you might consider addressing Mr Ellis by his name rather than address him as T Rex Sensei?Mr Ellis may well be an elder statesman of U.K. Aikido and as such deserves respect.His own lineage is excellent having been trained by K.AbbeSensei /Tadashi Abbe Sensei/Noro Sensei /Chiba Sensei /Mr WilliamsSensei.Cheers, Joe

Demetrio Cereijo
01-30-2012, 06:18 AM
Hi Joe,

I think David adressing Mr Ellis as "T-Rex Sensei" is not disrespectful at all and he (Mr Ellis) would like the apellative. I believe he would like to be called himself a dinosaur in the aikido world of today, as he calls dinosaurs his masters (http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/) from back in the day.

Regards

Mark Freeman
01-30-2012, 06:50 AM
BTW, did you see the thread on "the sock of ki"? It's here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20775

Hi David,

I did, and found it very interesting, I will reply to it later.

Fantastic. My regards to you both. Would you remind me of your own lineage?

My primary teacher for the whole of my aikido practice has been Sensei Ken Williams, who as you are probably aware from reading Henry Ellis' very informative site, was the first British student to recieve Aikido training from Abbe Sensei, when he was given the go ahead from Japan to teach to westerners in 1955. He was head of all aikido in the UK after Abbe's return to Japan. Until Chiba was sent over by the Aikikai to take up this position (possibly to prevent Tohei from gaining influence here - I am unclear of any facts about this). Anyway after about 10 years studying with Tohei, he left to form his own organisation and remove himself from the politics of aikido in the UK.

His teaching is predominantly influenced by Tohei's method, but with his own twist. Underlying all of his teaching is his commitment to Abbe's style of budo, which had the greatest impact on his life. He is 81 years of age now and lives each day in the way that he learned from an exceptional budoka.

The spirit of yoseikan has always been "find out for yourself what is true". So I applaud your efforts. That's exactly why the Japanese martial artist's response to any claim has always been "Misete!"--"Show me!". The were looking for the truth and it was hard to come by. And where there was little entertainment, anything new was also interesting.

If you made a claim and they said "Show me" and you did but it wasn't effective on them, ,they had no respect for it. But they would at least respect your willingness to step up and put your claims on the line and they might teach you if your ego wasn't too big to learn from them

If you made some claim and they said "Misete!" and you wouldn't back up your claim, they might get very angry. It wasn't like you could go a lot of places. You were in a very local village, so you couldn't get away from anything you said in this little circle of hard-working, strong, high-spirited and easily irritated people. And you were going to stay pretty much around them for most of your life. And if they took a bad attitude toward you, it could fester in that little town. And many fights started that way. So people learned not to make claims if they weren't willing to show their ability. And out of a couple of thousand years, the Japanese people developed pretty much a culture of speaking very politely and modestly.

The popular image is that the Japanese have bred the impolite and crude and harsh out of their culture, but they adhere to that today not because it's bred out fo them but because it is still very active among them. Anything you say will lead to a thousand repercussions and embarrassments. That is still a very real and potent element of daily life among Japanese.

And remember that in the beginning the "Show me!" is said in a real spirit of sharing. Meaning "Share that with me!" though it might also of course mean, "Prove it!" But if two people are on friendly conversational terms and one of them makes a strange claim, if the listener really gets the idea that the speaker could possibly really have this ability, he will enthusiastically say "Show me!" The more real power and experience he has, the more likely he is to have the "Prove it!" attitude. But the beginning is usually friendly enthusiasm.

Thanks for that, very interesting.


You posted a general plan for that a bit back, didn't you? Are you really doing that? How old are you? It seems great to do it and I wish you luck. Please let me know if you get into the southeast US.

I am still planning my trip, I hope to be in the USA by late spring/early summer, some things have to be sorted out here before I can leave. I am 56 so you may agree that 1955 was a particularly good vintage:)
Of course I will let you know when I get down your way. I was planning around 4-5 months in the US, but that may be cut down to 3 months, due to the difficulty getting a longer visa (long story).

regards,

Mark

sakumeikan
01-30-2012, 07:12 AM
Hi Joe,

I think David adressing Mr Ellis as "T-Rex Sensei" is not disrespectful at all and he (Mr Ellis) would like the apellative. I believe he would like to be called himself a dinosaur in the aikido world of today, as he calls dinosaurs his masters (http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/) from back in the day.

Regards

Dear David,
Perhaps the tag of T Rex Sensei is a private joke between Henry and David?I know Henry has a good sense of humour. As it happens I might myself qualify as a member of the dinosaur age!! Cheers, Joe.