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graham christian
01-15-2012, 04:30 AM
Just something interesting to share. Enjoy.

http://youtu.be/fV8S1jw9VN4.

G.

Dave de Vos
01-15-2012, 05:44 AM
Interesting indeed. I looked up (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=abir+martial+art&oq=abir+martial+art&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2719l10616l0l14130l17l17l0l10l10l0l152l616l3.3l6l0) some other clips of Abir. Striking similarities with aikido and even more with some chinese martial arts, I'd say.

Then again, I did a quick background check on Yehoshua Sofer and Abir and it seems that there is considerable doubt concerning the validity of his claims about the unbroken tradition of his art since biblical times. From a wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehoshua_Sofer): Yehoshua Sofer has been studying eastern martial arts since 1963. He holds (high) dan rankings and he even had a dojo. Only in 2002 did he start teaching his "biblical" art.

Dave de Vos
01-15-2012, 06:50 AM
Then again, in this (http://www.abirwarriorarts.com/en/content/about-the-aluf-abir) and other places it is not denied that Yehoshua Sofer holds 7th dan in Kuk Sool Won and Hap Ki Do, while maintaining that Abir Qesheth was transmitted to him by his father and grandfather. So I guess my quick background check cannot be called conclusive in any way.

Patrick Hutchinson
01-15-2012, 10:13 AM
The only exercise system mentioned in the Bible is Pontius Pilates.

Janet Rosen
01-15-2012, 11:06 AM
The only exercise system mentioned in the Bible is Pontius Pilates.

:D

graham christian
01-15-2012, 12:10 PM
The only exercise system mentioned in the Bible is Pontius Pilates.

Really? What about the parting of the sea? Good Ki.......ha, ha.

G.

lbb
01-15-2012, 05:33 PM
The world of martial arts is so very full of this kind of crap, it's no wonder that most people who come to train have their heads full of foolishness.

graham christian
01-15-2012, 10:27 PM
The world of martial arts is so very full of this kind of crap, it's no wonder that most people who come to train have their heads full of foolishness.

Why call it such?

G.

Kevin Leavitt
01-16-2012, 02:01 AM
Well. I am seven degrees from Kevin Bacon.

I think it is all a matter of perspective and relativeness. Most of us can figure out that we have such relationships somehow.

I don't really care about all the romanticism that surrounds the concept of unbroken tradition. It boils down to what he can teach, and what was transmitted, and how it is valued in the world at large.

There is no crime in marketing yourself for sure.

Just cause I have an "unbroken" relationship with Kevin Bacon, doesn't mean I can act, or the guy would even know who I am since I have never met the guy, but "something" was transmitted to me through meeting a guy, who met a guy, who actually knows him.

So, I try not to get caught up in the rhetoric of marketing.

CitoMaramba
01-16-2012, 02:22 AM
Hmm, Jew-jitsu?
/me runs away very fast!

lbb
01-16-2012, 08:08 AM
I don't really care about all the romanticism that surrounds the concept of unbroken tradition. It boils down to what he can teach, and what was transmitted, and how it is valued in the world at large.

Don't you care if someone lies to you?

If someone lies to you about one thing concerning the art that they're teaching you, can you trust the rest of what they have to say about it?

Have you thought about the reasons why someone might fabricate a romantic lineage rather than say, "Hey, I just made this stuff up"? Is this someone you want to learn from? Is this someone who is worthy of respect?

Demetrio Cereijo
01-16-2012, 08:38 AM
Well, you can learn useful things from liars and people unworthy of respect.

mathewjgano
01-16-2012, 10:16 AM
Don't you care if someone lies to you?

If someone lies to you about one thing concerning the art that they're teaching you, can you trust the rest of what they have to say about it?

Have you thought about the reasons why someone might fabricate a romantic lineage rather than say, "Hey, I just made this stuff up"? Is this someone you want to learn from? Is this someone who is worthy of respect?

Any number of reasons could have hypothetically occured. Maybe he believes it's the truth: maybe his grandfather made it up, or his great-grandfather or his great-great-grandfather adopted a needy kid and wanted him to feel special. Maybe, despite the odds, it really extends back hundreds of generations. Maybe he believes it is "true enough," or any number of possible personal justifications. People lie all the time using the best of intentions.
Just because someone tells me the truth doesn't mean I should necessarily trust them; just because they lie doesn't mean I should necessarily distrust them. There is no hard and fast way I know of to judge whether or not to trust someone in any given circumstance. People who have shown me no lies or ill will have "suddenly" and inexplicably betrayed me. So, I view trust as a highly situational thing, based on a level of complexity I'll never be able to entirely see. The only way I know of to trust people is based on intuition. This is fed by my sensibilities...for example, the idea that it's improbable that a martial art has been clearly maintained for 2000 years...but ultimately how I trust someone is based on more than whether or not they're telling me the truth about something...particularly concerning the great half truth commonly known as "history."

RED
01-16-2012, 11:38 AM
Hmm, Jew-jitsu?
/me runs away very fast!

You stole my joke :p

Cady Goldfield
01-16-2012, 11:48 AM
You stole my joke :p

Actually, it's not a new one, so don't feel bad. ;) In fact, it's been viral on the 'net for years.
http://www.collegehumor.com/picture/230715/jew-jitsu

The guy in the linked photo is the same one being discussed, too. Alas.

Janet Rosen
01-16-2012, 12:57 PM
Yeah but none of them can do my Jewish Mother Aikido.

CitoMaramba
01-16-2012, 02:16 PM
Yeah but none of them can do my Jewish Mother Aikido.

Does Jewish Mother Aikido sound like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wlUGDzo8pJE

:D

Cady Goldfield
01-16-2012, 04:02 PM
Yeah but none of them can do my Jewish Mother Aikido.

Guilt-Inducement and Overfeeding raised to a high artform!

Janet Rosen
01-16-2012, 04:48 PM
Does Jewish Mother Aikido sound like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wlUGDzo8pJE

:D

I couldn't listen past the first 10 seconds of shouting (tv is beyond me)....based on that... No, not in the least. REAL Jewish mothers never have to raise their voices.

Kevin Leavitt
01-17-2012, 05:19 PM
Any number of reasons could have hypothetically occured. Maybe he believes it's the truth: maybe his grandfather made it up, or his great-grandfather or his great-great-grandfather adopted a needy kid and wanted him to feel special. Maybe, despite the odds, it really extends back hundreds of generations. Maybe he believes it is "true enough," or any number of possible personal justifications. People lie all the time using the best of intentions.
Just because someone tells me the truth doesn't mean I should necessarily trust them; just because they lie doesn't mean I should necessarily distrust them. There is no hard and fast way I know of to judge whether or not to trust someone in any given circumstance. People who have shown me no lies or ill will have "suddenly" and inexplicably betrayed me. So, I view trust as a highly situational thing, based on a level of complexity I'll never be able to entirely see. The only way I know of to trust people is based on intuition. This is fed by my sensibilities...for example, the idea that it's improbable that a martial art has been clearly maintained for 2000 years...but ultimately how I trust someone is based on more than whether or not they're telling me the truth about something...particularly concerning the great half truth commonly known as "history."

In martial arts it becomes easy for me thease days to figure out what someone knows. It bugs me when people say have a PhD in business and then call themselves doctor when marketing themselves as an expert in martial arts or any number of unrelated fields. That said, they can do what they want...like I said it become evident early on what they know. People that tend to over emphasize this stuff, usually get my BS radar up pretty quickly.

So no I am not really concerned about lieing. Cavet emptor.

sorokod
01-18-2012, 05:18 AM
A year latter, still snake oil.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253357&posted=1

mathewjgano
01-18-2012, 02:02 PM
In martial arts it becomes easy for me thease days to figure out what someone knows. It bugs me when people say have a PhD in business and then call themselves doctor when marketing themselves as an expert in martial arts or any number of unrelated fields. That said, they can do what they want...like I said it become evident early on what they know. People that tend to over emphasize this stuff, usually get my BS radar up pretty quickly.

So no I am not really concerned about lieing. Cavet emptor.

I'd have a harder time being able to figure out what someone knows, but because I try hard to maintain a skeptical/"scientific" filter, I'm just not worried about the wool being pulled over my eyes...much; I realize that can lead to a false sense of security, too. Part of my reasoning also comes from the times when I learned something unexpected. I've mentioned before that I came to Aikido thinking it might teach me something about "martial" application, but that it would be better geared toward meditation. I grew up wrestling a lot with my friends and saw a handful of violent events so I had some idea of what physical conflict can look like; some of what I saw at the dojo I ended up training at looked useless and contrived to me. Turns out they have a practical purpose. If I hadn't given it a try I probably never would have learned what little I was able to pick up.
Also, as it relates to even vetted expertise: I've seen enough cases where the expertise of bonafide experts simply fell short, like the time I ruptured my eardrum. I went to the doctor who immediately chastized me saying, "you really never should stick things into your ear." She then proceded to stick a q-tip in my ear, bumping into the tear. Human fallibility pervades even our most accomplished attributes...hence the constant need for the training/evaluation/re-evalutation process.

dalen7
01-19-2012, 02:18 AM
- Pontius Pilates
- Jew - Jitsu

ROFL!!!
You guys crack me up.

p.s.
Kevin, you are on the money about the marketing hype... you either have it, or dont.
[sometimes you have a little of both] :)

Peace

Patrick Hutchinson
01-19-2012, 06:34 AM
OMG I made the same Pilates joke 2 years ago.
Janet liked it both times though, so I don't feel so bad.

graham christian
01-19-2012, 09:02 AM
Interesting indeed. I looked up (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=abir+martial+art&oq=abir+martial+art&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2719l10616l0l14130l17l17l0l10l10l0l152l616l3.3l6l0) some other clips of Abir. Striking similarities with aikido and even more with some chinese martial arts, I'd say.

Then again, I did a quick background check on Yehoshua Sofer and Abir and it seems that there is considerable doubt concerning the validity of his claims about the unbroken tradition of his art since biblical times. From a wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehoshua_Sofer): Yehoshua Sofer has been studying eastern martial arts since 1963. He holds (high) dan rankings and he even had a dojo. Only in 2002 did he start teaching his "biblical" art.

Well done Dave, at least one person enjoyed it and admired someone doing their own discipline.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
01-19-2012, 10:38 AM
OMG I made the same Pilates joke 2 years ago.
Janet liked it both times though, so I don't feel so bad.

Waiting for 2014 :D