Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

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[Mario Tobias]

Hi,

For koshi nage, we are being taught to bring our feet together when doing the technique. However, Saito sensei is doing his with an open stance.

It looks easier with Saito sensei's version since when you are face to face with your uke, you just step straight toward him and do a 90 degree hantai tenkan. And with an open stance, your back is automatically bent before throwing so its more economical. No need to bend down after positioning yourself to uke unlike with a feet together stance which is an extra process.

Koshi nage is one of the techniques which you either love or hate.

[sorokod]

This should of interest: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14306

[grondahl]

Coming from the "open stance" linage, I find feet together superior when your dealing with a short (or short legged) uke. Much easier to get down really low.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

As a short nage myself: open enough for keeping balance but close enough to avoid uke falling on my knee.

[PaulieWalnuts]

It depends on the form, 2 baisc forms of koshi nage are head under or hips under (as taught in Iwama) with head under there is a wider position of the feet, here is an example of demonstrating where to align the body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-9cNnd3bFU

for the hips under its usually a smaller space between the feet as in this version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODzpi_rLM7k ( although this teacher is very tall so his feet are naturally wider anyway for his balance)

[kewms]

As a short nage myself: open enough for keeping balance but close enough to avoid uke falling on my knee.

This is my experience as well.

When done slowly, a wider stance does make it easier to keep your balance. When done fast, however, the risk of uke falling on the knee seems to me to be much more of a concern.

If you can't keep your balance with a stance narrow enough to be safe, the solution is probably to practice until you can, not to adjust your stance to compensate.

Katherine

[Russ Q]

Suganuma sensei shows basic/kihon koshinage with a wide stance but, as others have mentioned, once you start moving quickly then I tend to move toward a closed/feet together stance.

Cheers,

Russ

[Fred Little]

This is my experience as well.

When done slowly, a wider stance does make it easier to keep your balance. When done fast, however, the risk of uke falling on the knee seems to me to be much more of a concern.

If you can't keep your balance with a stance narrow enough to be safe, the solution is probably to practice until you can, not to adjust your stance to compensate.

Katherine

The training I got at the original Bond Street Dojo seems to have been significantly different than either alternative mentioned thus far in this thread.

1. Feet together in a "T" with the heel of the "non-load" foot at the arch of the "load" foot beneath the hip over which uke will rotate.

2. Always remove the bearing leg and hip while releasing uke, precisely to avoid the risk of uke falling on the knee.

In part, this reflects the significant influence Kuroiwa Sensei had on training at BSD; senior instructor Christine Jordan was relentless and adamant about the removal of the leg as a safety measure and I've followed her lead in that. A number of years back, I had one particularly otherwise exemplary student who didn't listen to my admonitions on this point for a period of six months. Then he damaged his knee, needed ACL surgery, and effectively ended his training. Since then, I've become more insistent about the need to remove the leg.

My tuppence.

FL

[kewms]

2. Always remove the bearing leg and hip while releasing uke, precisely to avoid the risk of uke falling on the knee.

I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. How do you move a leg that is supporting your weight and uke's?

Katherine

[dalen7]

I was taught both open stance and feet together method.
[Hated the latter, but that reflects weakness in my own structure I need to work on]

As for Koshinage, I dont mind throwing - but I like my feet on the ground... regardless.
[Perhaps I will learn to love 'air'] ;)

- dAlen

[Chris Li]

Here's an interesting quote from an interview with Yasuo Kobayashi (the original interview was Japanese only). It does relate to Fred Little's post a bit:

While we're discussing this, as far as I know koshi-nage was not practiced much in the beginning. After Nishio and Kuroiwa researched it independently other instructors began to steal their techniques.

Best,

Chris

[dalen7]

Here's an interesting quote from an interview with Yasuo Kobayashi (the original interview was Japanese only). It does relate to Fred Little's post a bit:

"While we're discussing this, as far as I know koshi-nage was not practiced much in the beginning. After Nishio and Kuroiwa researched it independently other instructors began to steal their techniques."

Best,

Chris

Heard that from someone else as well.

To the best of my understanding, Koshinage is more of a Judo type move.
[At least it appears that way from my limited knowledge of Judo... which really is zilch]

But, I am glad, in a way, that it exist within Aikido, as its this type of movement which shows the natural extension of Judo in relation to Aikido - [and though not this technique, you can see where BJJ fits in as well once you start playing with grappling]

Think more of it in terms of distance as to what is effective, I heard someone say once... and it seems to hold up. [All in all, its all jiu-jitsu - just got split up] ;)

- dAlen

[Ellis Amdur]

From an interview (http://members.aikidojournal.com/private/interview-with-morihiro-saito-1991/) with Saito Morihiro

The founder once said jokingly that there were no better techniques than koshinage (hip throws) and that he never got tired even if he practiced them from morning to night. Kokyunage and koshinage, which were once regarded as basic aikido techniques, are now being taught instead as applied or advanced techniques. I think it is unfortunate that this may have become necessary in order to preserve the techniques of aikido.

To the best of my recollection, Nishio Sensei usually executed "koshinage" that were adaptations of judo (much like ogoshi). Kuroiwa Sensei created a unique technique that was actually an adaptation of a wrestling single leg.

John Driscoll has made an almost impeccable case (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?filter[1]=John%20Driscoll&t=14306) that koshinage, in the "classic" aikido manner, where nage's hips are perpendicular to uke's (rather than judo's parallel) is the single, solitary aikido technique that is not derived from Daito-ryu; rather, from Yagyu Shingan-ryu. This article is kind of buried on the Aikiweb site - it deserves to be highlighted, for it's meticulous consideration of a single technique (John is a high ranking judoka as well as aikidoka, by the way). It also is a prime illustration of how a study of history can actually illuminate proper practice.
Ellis Amdur

[Chris Li]

From an interview (http://members.aikidojournal.com/private/interview-with-morihiro-saito-1991/) with Saito Morihiro

To the best of my recollection, Nishio Sensei usually executed "koshinage" that were adaptations of judo (much like ogoshi). Kuroiwa Sensei created a unique technique that was actually an adaptation of a wrestling single leg.

John Driscoll has made an almost impeccable case (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?filter[1]=John%20Driscoll&t=14306) that koshinage, in the "classic" aikido manner, where nage's hips are perpendicular to uke's (rather than judo's parallel) is the single, solitary aikido technique that is not derived from Daito-ryu; rather, from Yagyu Shingan-ryu. This article is kind of buried on the Aikiweb site - it deserves to be highlighted, for it's meticulous consideration of a single technique (John is a high ranking judoka as well as aikidoka, by the way). It also is a prime illustration of how a study of history can actually illuminate proper practice.
Ellis Amdur

A claim that I heard once from Saito was that koshi-nage was originally practiced with the nage standing upright - koshi garuma rather than what we think of as koshi nage today. The change (supposedly) was made because the ukemi for koshi garuma was too difficult for most people.

Muddying the water...Anyway, it does make the perpendicular hips seem logical, if you think of it in that context.

Best,

Chris

[Fred Little]

I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. How do you move a leg that is supporting your weight and uke's?

Katherine

Understandable question. The thing is, what you're really doing is transferring everything (except uke) to the other leg so you can both move your own leg and stop supporting uke. This inevitably results in uke falling. :D

Best,

FL

[Allen Beebe]

A claim that I heard once from Saito was that koshi-nage was originally practiced with the nage standing upright - koshi garuma rather than what we think of as koshi nage today. The change (supposedly) was made because the ukemi for koshi garuma was too difficult for most people.

Muddying the water...Anyway, it does make the perpendicular hips seem logical, if you think of it in that context.

Best,

Chris

Chris,

FWIW, serendipitously I was watching one of the Shirata Vids that Stan just put up (I've had them since the eighties, but was asked, and agreed, to not publicly distribute them . . . so I didn't.) And it shows sensei doing a series of koshi nage with a bit of a scoop (hardly any compared to most). But I was kind of frustrated, because I've said to my students for years that how he did koshi nage was without any perceptible scoop, much less going perpendicular, and still you would become entirely airborne. There was no perceptible wind up and no perceptible force used, not even the perception of your weight being levered. One moment you would be standing and then you would be landing and there was nothing "in between." Consequently you couldn't resist, there was nothing to resist, you couldn't "prepare" or "anticipate" because there was nothing to prepare for or anticipate. And the landing could be "rude" because the only thing seemingly slowing your fall was the ground, in other words there was no friction or drag.

For me the problem was, due to the nature of the throw, there was little (visual path, sensational path, etc) I could "trace back" to figure out just how he was doing it. So it was "invisible" to stop, and invisible to reproduce.

So I was left "teaching" koshi nage to my students saying, "This isn't it! Then I would show them the outer form and describe what I just described above, and say something like, "Now help me figure out how it works."

Lately the guys have reproduced it a handful of times (I'm probably the worst of the bunch of us.) which is both exciting and maddening (because our performance is spotty at best). Our conclusion? It has everything to do with what we do inside ourselves and virtually nothing to do with timing, positioning, leverage, (Yes, leverage!) or just about any other "normal" things one would look to to explain or solve the puzzle.

The biggest obstacle towards application in antagonistic practice is ourselves. We get excited, or scared, and start "doing stuff" and, POOF! game over. We've gotten better about "policing" our selves though. So practice is productive.

Anyway, I thought since you shared what Saito sensei said, I'd throw this out there FWIW.

Allen

[Ernesto Lemke]

WVM!
(Worth Very Much!)

[Rupert Atkinson]

Seems to me that if there are two ways to do things, you had best learn both. When I hear the we do it this way and they do it that way discussions, I just laugh. And guess what, I'd say there are more than two ways to do koshinage, or in fact, any technique.

[Mario Tobias]

Seems to me that if there are two ways to do things, you had best learn both. When I hear the we do it this way and they do it that way discussions, I just laugh. And guess what, I'd say there are more than two ways to do koshinage, or in fact, any technique.

I just watched koshi waza videos from Kyuzo Mifune who they called God of Judo. Seems he does koshi techniques with one foot!

[Ellis Amdur]

Mario - you need to get out a little more :) That's just a harai-goshi - "reaping hip," a classic judo throw - any schoolboy learns that. Judo has any number of different kinds of hip throws.
Ellis Amdur

[Mario Tobias]

Mario - you need to get out a little more :) That's just a harai-goshi - "reaping hip," a classic judo throw - any schoolboy learns that. Judo has any number of different kinds of hip throws.
Ellis Amdur

sorry I do not have good knowledge of judo. but there were about 20 variations I saw in the clip not relying too much on on stance but on timing and position.

[Fred Little]

I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. How do you move a leg that is supporting your weight and uke's?

Katherine

This clip doesn't show the "T" position of the feet which he emphasized as part of a solo-training drill, in which you

a) stand with your back flat to the wall, heels together.

b) bring your right heel to your left instep

c) lower yourself, right hip lower than the left, keeping your back flat to the wall

d) repeat a

e) bring your left heel to your right instep

f) lower yourself, left hip lower than the right, keeping your back flat to the wall

g) repeat until you've got it

The footwork in the clip is much looser. But he was insistent about the form of the solo practice. But what the clip does show is how someone moves a leg that was serving as support for him and his uke: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izpob10bVPI)

Hope this is more helpful.

FL

[niall]

I wrote a blog post comparing aikido koshinage and judo koshi waza a while ago. Some of the comments and links are interesting. In the article I mentioned hearing Nishio Sensei explain how he personally introduced judo-style koshinage into aikido. I got the impression he had been asked to. I don't do koshinage with feet together or in a T. I do it with feet in a figure 11. The same as O Sensei, Arikawa Sensei, Nishio Sensei, Sugano Sensei, Shimizu Sensei...

koshinage koshi waza hip throw (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/moon-in-the-water-19051/koshinage-koshi-waza-hip-throw-4075/)

[Mario Tobias]

It was a good blog.

True. The technique fails most of the time because a lot of people are intimidated by the ukemi or dont know how to take ukemi for this technique. For the people who are not good with top ukemi, they mostly panic when they sense they are being loaded and try to slide down nages back and do forward rolls even before the throw trying to avoid top ukemi. That's why its difficult to practice this. You need uke who know how to take proper ukemi.

[tlk52]

at the NY Aikikai seminar in Dec 2011 we spent most of one class on these 2 koshi's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfxlquWR1Gc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMvCPQ1RPQ4

best

[tlk52]

"lot of people are intimidated by the ukemi or dont know how to take ukemi for this technique."

I think that the problem is simply lack of practice, and therefor fear of the ukemi.

one thing that I've found effective is to have students spend more time loading up (2-3X loading and then 1X throw) that way uke can get used to it, nage can work on position, and there's less wear on the body.

[jonreading]

I think you have some level of flexibility in the width of feet in a throw. Judo, for example, has many [successful] throws from a variety of foot positions; pillared and wide stances being just two of the positions. I think, more importantly, a successful throw involves the position of the feet to support the partner over the fulcrum of the throw.

My current observation here is that aikido-style koshi nage is not the same as judo-style koshi waza (o toshi). As best as I can tell, aikido koshi nage places great emphasis on over-extending uke and positioning the hip on the lea side of the fulcrum of balance. The judo-style o toshi assimilates uke onto nage and rotates uke over the fulcrum. (Although I have played with some great judo people who do their fair share of over-extending tori).

For koshi nage, I usually teach hips perpendicular to uke and feet in a pillar position, with feet comfortably close to support uke, toes slightly wider then heels and the dominant leg around which rotates uke is [more] heel planted. This is similar to how Fred described his positioning (I think). However, in fairness, when I play with judo people and try this they usually laugh at me and in some derogatory manner ask why I am sticking out my bootie.

No offense to anyone, but I feel aikido koshi nages allow uke to fall; judo koshi waza propels uke. I think this is because the judo applies more rotation in the hips during the throw while aikido kinda throws the hip into uke as an obstacle. I also think judo throws place far more emphasis on "fitting", whereas aikido people are less precise (possibly because of compliant partners). Aikido and judo also have two completely different uke responses. I bring this up since I think we need to distinguish between aikido and judo in describing our preferences.

[pezalinski]

No offense to anyone, but I feel aikido koshi nages allow uke to fall; judo koshi waza propels uke. I think this is because the judo applies more rotation in the hips during the throw while aikido kinda throws the hip into uke as an obstacle. I also think judo throws place far more emphasis on "fitting", whereas aikido people are less precise (possibly because of compliant partners). Aikido and judo also have two completely different uke responses. I bring this up since I think we need to distinguish between aikido and judo in describing our preferences.

I think Jon has a limited experience of Aikido's koshi nage. There's no practical difference between the Judo and the Aikido version of it when it's executed properly. I've experienced the propulsion he refers to in both arts -- and I think it comes easier to Judoka because they practice it as a core of their art.

Aikido's koshinage has always been a challenge, both for uke and for nage, because of the levels of commitment, confidence and height involved. Most of the koshinage 'practice forms' I have experienced are designed to get uke and nage in proper alignment and give both a safe starting point to experience the technique and it's results from. This requires the three P's (practice, practice, practice) and a heightened awareness of risks. No one wants to injure themselves or their partner by improper training. Getting to the 'art' of it from means finding a safe way to practice the 'static' forms, so the open and closed stance variations both have their places -- but don't confuse them with a more dynamic experience of koshinage.

Koshinage is a dynamic and beautiful redirection of energy that doesn't really involve "loading up" or "removing a supporting leg," because the transition from attack to throw doesn't have a real stopping point in the middle where one should have to support uke's weight, and does often involve propelling the uke further upward and outward as a result of the throw. The most effective applications of the technique, as witnessed when it appears in randori, happen in a manner that is not easy to duplicate in a static form, simply because neither partner ceases to be moving -- nage is not "planted" nor is uke "just holding on". When we practice to learn koshinage, we need to "stop time" to ensure both partners are in approximately the proper alignment during the execution of the technique -- which is why we "load up", I think -- but this is not a practical application of the martial art, just a training tool to acquire the skills to execute it and take the resulting ukemi.

Train safely, and don't confuse the 'training' :do: with the 'art' :ai: :ki: of the technique, is I guess what I'm trying to say.

[Ellis Amdur]

Peter Zalinski wrote:
When we practice to learn koshinage, we need to "stop time" to ensure both partners are in approximately the proper alignment during the execution of the technique -- which is why we "load up", I think -- but this is not a practical application of the martial art, just a training tool to acquire the skills to execute it and take the resulting ukemi.

But earlier, you wrote:
I think Jon has a limited experience of Aikido's koshi nage. There's no practical difference between the Judo and the Aikido version of it when it's executed properly. I've experienced the propulsion he refers to in both arts -- and I think it comes easier to Judoka because they practice it as a core of their art.

And this is the crux of the difference. The judoka does NOT need to stop time, does NOT need any agreement from uke. Through proper kuzushi, uke is placed/led into a position that koshi-nage (properly "koshi-kake(ru)" - in other words, s/he trips over the hips) occurs. Tori is able to do this because they are grabbing/wrapping the keikko-gi or the hips (depending on the koshi variant).

The difficulty with the classic aikido koshinage is that it requires you to function at a "separation ma-ai" - and IF uke is over-balanced, tori steps in, with the perpendicular hips and uke trips. If one has not truly impeccable kuzushi, (or total control of uke - re aiki), uke will be able to escape, because it takes so much time to enter from arms-length ma-ai, that uke, even unbalanced, can recover.

If you look at the roots of aikido koshinage (see film clip of YSR earlier), you'll see a particular kuzushi is set up by smashing the enemy backwards, and they lunge forward in response. I think about now, I can hear O-sensei saying, "in aiki, we do it this way." Without some kind of total body control of the other - from kuzushi to it's more subtle manifestation, aiki or (kokyu, if you prefer) - the aikido koshinage will unfortunately be relegated to a "training tool" for ukemi, as you put it, rather than a real practical method - as judo's technique is. Let me quote, again, what I linked to earlier:

The founder once said jokingly that there were no better techniques than koshinage (hip throws) and that he never got tired even if he practiced them from morning to night. Kokyunage and koshinage, which were once regarded as basic aikido techniques, are now being taught instead as applied or advanced techniques. I think it is unfortunate that this may have become necessary in order to preserve the techniques of aikido.

That last statement is awful intriguing - that largely eliminating what Osensei thought was a) his favorite b) basic, was "necessary in order to preserve the techniques of aikido." Oh yes, who was it who said, "that's not my aikido." In addition to the flogged to near death subject of aiki, could Osensei have been also lamenting a weak-hipped, unstable-based type of practice, because of the de-emphasis of koshi techniques? Hmmmm

Best
Ellis Amdur

[hughrbeyer]

Koshinage is a dynamic and beautiful redirection of energy that doesn't really involve "loading up" or "removing a supporting leg," because the transition from attack to throw doesn't have a real stopping point in the middle where one should have to support uke's weight...

The best advice I ever got on koshinage was to think of it as moving through uke rather than loading and throwing. I only nail it once in maybe 20 throws but when I do it's smooooth.

[DH]

Hip throws are probably best not looked at as a static thing. There are many variants to hip throws that are hip under hoists, step across and pull, step in and launch hip sideways to cut out the legs...on and on. These can be done by stepping in and joining the feet, cross stepping in to fit and then cutting the hip, and or lifting/sweeping the hip, statically or in a process of continued and sudden positional changes. Not the least of which is what can be happening "top side" that sometimes makes the decisions for you.
Dan

[roadtoad]

Most of those are effective against arm grabs. But they're all really Judo. Even Yamada is just dragging uke over his back. Saito's knees were so bad by the time he was 35 that he could throw anyone, but he also drug uke over his back.
The only one that actually had a Koshi that was an actual Koshi against an actual Karate front punch, was Isoyama, but, since Karate uses right hand forward, right foot forward, it is the opposite of the typical western boxing cross, which is right hand forward, left foot forward.
I have invented a throw that qualifies as a Koshi, against a punch, but it could be called a sort of variation of Harai-nage., after the punch, that is, because judo doesn't use punches.