PDA

View Full Version : Why don't we practice chokes?


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Conrad Gus
12-15-2011, 05:18 PM
I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

Does anyone have any information or theories?

lbb
12-15-2011, 05:41 PM
If you render someone unconscious due to lack of oxygen-carrying blood to the brain, you better be damn sure you can revive them if need be.

(in other words, I expect there's a sad story behind it, OR someone pointed out just how stupid it is to be playing around with chokes unless you really, really know what you're doing)

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2011, 05:41 PM
Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.

kaishaku
12-15-2011, 06:39 PM
It's undignified.

Belt_Up
12-15-2011, 06:51 PM
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

If you render someone unconscious due to lack of oxygen-carrying blood to the brain, you better be damn sure you can revive them if need be.

From what I know, things like the vascular neck restraint are incredibly safe. Judo has used them for decades with no reported deaths.

Linky: http://www.lvrj.com/news/proper-use-of-neck-hold-not-fatal-research-shows-75766857.html

Kevin Leavitt
12-15-2011, 06:54 PM
Ummm..u can practice chokes without actually having to go all the way.

Belt_Up
12-15-2011, 07:01 PM
No girls fall for that one any more.

Janet Rosen
12-15-2011, 07:27 PM
No girls fall for that one any more.

????

Belt_Up
12-15-2011, 07:49 PM
without actually having to go all the way.

Was I too subtle?

Mary Eastland
12-15-2011, 08:19 PM
We practice a choking technique.

kewms
12-15-2011, 08:30 PM
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

That would be my guess. Chokes also seem like they would be a poor choice for a multiple attacker situation.

Katherine

LinTal
12-15-2011, 11:26 PM
Maybe it's a conflict of philosophy? My understanding is that we aim to restrict movement or repel the opponent damaging them.

'You break it you bought it' kinda thing. :D

David Orange
12-16-2011, 12:35 AM
Even rarer is the choke done through sutemi waza, as was the specialty of Minoru Mochizuki's yoseikan budo aikido. See here at 3:00, 3:15 and 3:21--all chokes done from sutemi waza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZKrkT1ft-s&feature=related

The choke is a powerful tool and it can be done altogether safely. All our chokes in yoseikan came from judo or from jujutsu and modified by judo's standards of safe practice. We never actually choked one another unconscious but stopped when the chokee tapped out. But choking was a fair option at any time in randori, for any attack that presented the opening. As you can see Washizu Sensei perform these techniques, they can be applied very fast and smoothly for devastating overall effect.

Best.

David

I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

Does anyone have any information or theories?

Carsten Möllering
12-16-2011, 02:54 AM
We practice chokes as kihon of irimi nage in suwari waza and hanmi handachi waza.

This same form is kihon of irimi nage and sokumen irimi nage (kokyu ho /sokumen irimi nage) in tanto dori, jo dori and jo nage, tachi dori.

We practice ushiro katate dori kubi shime as a attack on a regular base.

Dave de Vos
12-16-2011, 03:01 AM
We practice ushiro katate dori kubi shime as a attack on a regular base.

I remember us doing that last week, ushiro katate dori kubi shime sankyo: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940148_aikido-kubishime-sankyo-defense.html

We have not done this technique where nage gets to choke uke, but it looks interesting: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940218_mune-tsuki-waza-sankyo-kubishime.html

bob_stra
12-16-2011, 03:25 AM
Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.

Opinions vary

http://www.achievingexcellence.com/images/Fel9lg.jpg

I think Yoseikan does some of the "pass the weapon, step behind them" type things that are amicable to hadaka jime. (Ditto some FMA schools). And hey, it's never a bad idea to have a human shield, right? :D

Demetrio Cereijo
12-16-2011, 04:02 AM
We have not done this technique where nage gets to choke uke, but it looks interesting: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940218_mune-tsuki-waza-sankyo-kubishime.html
I would not call that a choke but a faint caused by sudden pressure in carotid sinus baroreceptors.

Bob,

Too risky is not the same than impossible. Anyway I would not recommend Feldenkrais approach if it resembles what can be seen in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrKLGOsDJro) unless there are not other options available.

I'll try to get the book so I can get a more complete picture about his views on choking armed people in a combative environment.

bob_stra
12-16-2011, 04:26 AM
Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.

For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix (http://www.isrmatrix.org/). Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. I think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).

Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity. But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-16-2011, 04:51 AM
Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.
I'm already aware of Feldenkrais' genius. If I get the book I'll give my unworthy (never choked anyone in a battlefield) opinion, but some of the pics in the cover make me cringe.

For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix (http://www.isrmatrix.org/). Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).
Don't know about Floro's work, but ISRM is, from what I've seen, a good system. And I'll add SBGI STAB is very good too, as Dog Bros DLO.

Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity.
Not counting all the previous work to get there and establish control on the opponent who should be trying to fight back/escape/defend the choke.

But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.
Sure, but as you have already noticed, usually Aikido chokes imply controlling uke's armed hand. Similar as you can see in Judo Kime no Kata when weapon has been drawn.

Michael Varin
12-16-2011, 04:57 AM
I think it is important to learn chokes/strangles, but I agree with what Demetrio said.

Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.

Too risky is not the same than impossible.

The picture Bob posted and video Demetrio linked to above are perfect examples of why it probably is too risky to attempt to choke out an armed opponent.

A lot can happen in 3 to 15 seconds, especially with a determined adversary holding a sharp object.

This is probably why the most prevalent choke in aikido (ushiro kubi shime) includes a wrist hold.

Chuck Clark
01-01-2012, 07:14 PM
Did we lose the rest of the discussion about shimewaza? I hope not, there were several posts that I had wanted to look at again and then the server went down.

lbb
01-01-2012, 07:20 PM
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

A choke is not strangulation. Strangulation does not happen quickly; a choke incapacitates and renders unconscious very quickly. Speaking from personal experience, here.

From what I know, things like the vascular neck restraint are incredibly safe. Judo has used them for decades with no reported deaths.

Those two sentences are not in agreement. Absence of reported death does not equal "incredibly safe". There are many activities with inherent deadly risk where, for a number of different interconnected reasons, actual deaths are rare or unknown. That does not make these activities safe.

Byron Foster
01-01-2012, 10:10 PM
Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm There were 16 choke hold deaths by the Los Angeles Police alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?

graham christian
01-01-2012, 10:56 PM
Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm There were 16 choke hold deaths by the Los Angeles Police alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?

I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.

I would say good practice in Aikido would be to try such positions as would be chokes and find what is more appropriate, less damaging and yet more effective. The way of Aikido no?

Regards.G.

Conrad Gus
01-01-2012, 11:37 PM
I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.

Agreed that the term is misleading, but that's what the BJJ people call it.

graham christian
01-01-2012, 11:59 PM
Agreed that the term is misleading, but that's what the BJJ people call it.

Nonetheless a good question Conrad. Personally I have used it in training more from the view of how to 'get out' of one rather than how to do one.

To do one would be as I described above but would enter a specific part of Aikido as far as I am concerned and that would be the area of pins. Now as far as I know there is no such 'formal' pin yet I see no reason that it couldn't be used in such a way but would take some expertise to do as such.

I would envision it to be like a headlock which is inescapable and immobilizing yet based on the principles of Aikido.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll get much other food for thought here.

Happy hunting. G.

lbb
01-02-2012, 11:42 AM
I think I've been using the terminology incorrectly, or at least ambiguously, but it seems I'm not alone -- every definition I can find of the terms "choke" and "strangle" says that they are used both for compression of the carotid or jugular, and blocking of the airway. I think, however, that my answer is the same regardless of which you're talking about. One is fast, the other is slow, both are potentially deadly. If you interrupt the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain by means swift or slow, you're messing with someone's life. Unless you like the thought of filling out a lot of forms, explaining yourself to someone's next of kin, and spending a lot of time in court, you'd better not play games like this.

Carsten Möllering
01-02-2012, 01:28 PM
To do one would be as I described above but would enter a specific part of Aikido as far as I am concerned and that would be the area of pins. Now as far as I know there is no such 'formal' pin ...
As I tried to say before, our kihon waza of tanto dori / jo dori / tachi dori irimi nage ends with tori immobilizing uke by applying a choke. It is called "choke" because it is about interrupting uke's possibility to breathe. It is endet when uke taps out.
I wouldn't call this a pin? But it's clearly a form of katame waza just like the finalization of shiho nage or kote gaeshi can be.

Also there is a form of tachi waza irimi nage where uke is not thrown but choked, tori standing behind him. It can be applied as headlock, but also as choke. We do this very seldom. Here also: It is endet when uke taps out.

In both cases I don't know whether to call it 'formal'? It simply "exists".

Fred Little
01-02-2012, 02:14 PM
I think I've been using the terminology incorrectly, or at least ambiguously, but it seems I'm not alone -- every definition I can find of the terms "choke" and "strangle" says that they are used both for compression of the carotid or jugular, and blocking of the airway. I think, however, that my answer is the same regardless of which you're talking about. One is fast, the other is slow, both are potentially deadly. If you interrupt the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain by means swift or slow, you're messing with someone's life. Unless you like the thought of filling out a lot of forms, explaining yourself to someone's next of kin, and spending a lot of time in court, you'd better not play games like this.

My working definition is that a choke compresses the airway, a strangle compresses blood vessels, if applied in complete accordance with the definition. But perfection is elusive, and a badly applied (but comparatively safe) strangle can slide into a badly applied (and comparatively risky) choke, especially with a resistant subject and an adrenalized individual applying the strangle.

As for speed of effect, the difference between fast and slow lies primarily in the skill level of the individual applying the technique. There are some individuals who can not only control how fast the subject passes out, but how much or how little the subject fouls himself.

The effect of a strangle, which was long ascribed to interrupting the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain, is now more generally believed to be an autonomic response to signals from baroreceptors in the neck, an explanation which accounts for fast strangles in a way the lack of oxygen theory doesn't.

All that said, it's a good idea to have someone on hand who knows basic resuscitation techniques if that's what you're practicing.

Chuck Clark
01-02-2012, 02:27 PM
Nonetheless a good question Conrad. Personally I have used it in training more from the view of how to 'get out' of one rather than how to do one.

If shimewaza is applied properly, the more you struggle or "try to get out of it" the more effective it is. If you can get out of it, it hasn't reached kime yet. Skillful application causes the arms/hands to go away from the core of the body and panic sets in almost instantly. As Fred Little says, voiding and soiling one's trousers is likely as the affect deepens. It doesn't take very long when done properly. It isn't really about "choking"...

It's too bad we lost much of this discussion when the server went down.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-02-2012, 02:58 PM
Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?

Have you looked for taser related deaths?

Learn to choke properly. The risk of causing serious harm or death by choking is lower than in nage waza.

Kevin Leavitt
01-02-2012, 05:44 PM
Again, Chokes can be practiced safely. Two types as has already been discussed. Airway and Blood. Airway can be very dangerous if you crush the windpipe, you can also cause it to go into spasms too. So these are not adviseable to practice. Also they are harder to do and do not cause the immediacy you are looking for in a choke. Blood chokes in which you reduce blood flow to the brain are more effective and relatively safe. Note I said reduced blood flow to brain, not stopping it. In reality you only cut off enough to cause them to pass out. It doesn't take much and it doesn't take long.

I practice them all the time with no ill effects whatsoever.

Michael Hackett
01-02-2012, 05:46 PM
My previous post disappeared in the ether.......police agents are still taught "chokes", with the word "choke" being completely misleading. There have been two basic choke techniques taught over the years, the bar arm choke and the carotid restraint, with the bar arm choke largely being abandoned by most agencies. The bar arm choke relied on cutting off the airway with the forearm across the front of the neck. It took a long time and there was (and is) a great danger of crushing the throat organs and killing the subject. The carotid restraint (Rear Naked Choke to BJJ folks) is applied to the sides of the neck and reduces blood flow to the brain. It works quickly and seldom results in lasting injury. The carotid restraint can cause injury or death if it is applied too forcefully or kept on too long. Overall it is a relatively safe and effective technique when applied reasonably - and that can be said about most defensive tactics techniques. Use of the baton, chemical agents and electric control devices are usually safe and effective when used by a reasonable officer in reasonable circumstances as well, but they can also be abused.

As for the TASER ecd, there hasn't been any credible and objective evidence that it has caused death. There have been numerous cases where the local medical examiner has opined that the cause of death was related to the deployment of the TASER, but as far as I know, in each of those cases the individual died after deployment of the TASER and the ME concluded that since the device was used and the person died, therefore the device caused the death. That is the classic issue of confusing correlation and cause. The research done by folks such as Dr. Ted Fox at UC San Diego shows pretty clearly that the ecd devices are non-lethal. There have been deaths related to the ecd in which the individual lost control of his body and suffered fatal head injuries from falling however. All of the peer-reviewed literature I've read shows these TASER related deaths to be consistent with excited delirium. And no, I don't work for TASER International, never have, don't own stock in the company and have never corresponded with anyone associated with the firm. For those interested, I can refer you to some of the literature and you can form your own opinions.

graham christian
01-02-2012, 06:42 PM
As I tried to say before, our kihon waza of tanto dori / jo dori / tachi dori irimi nage ends with tori immobilizing uke by applying a choke. It is called "choke" because it is about interrupting uke's possibility to breathe. It is endet when uke taps out.
I wouldn't call this a pin? But it's clearly a form of katame waza just like the finalization of shiho nage or kote gaeshi can be.

Also there is a form of tachi waza irimi nage where uke is not thrown but choked, tori standing behind him. It can be applied as headlock, but also as choke. We do this very seldom. Here also: It is endet when uke taps out.

In both cases I don't know whether to call it 'formal'? It simply "exists".

Interesting. I suppose it depends on your purpose really. All the above rely on airway blocking or even blood supply blocking thus I can say I don't teach or put that into practice as I consider it unnecessary.

I have on the other hand taught similar without the need to restrict any blood or air flow.

Thus I leave it to judo or other forms of Aikibudo or Aikido to practice in that way.

Regards.G.

lbb
01-02-2012, 07:59 PM
Again, Chokes can be practiced safely. Two types as has already been discussed. Airway and Blood. Airway can be very dangerous if you crush the windpipe, you can also cause it to go into spasms too. So these are not adviseable to practice. Also they are harder to do and do not cause the immediacy you are looking for in a choke. Blood chokes in which you reduce blood flow to the brain are more effective and relatively safe. Note I said reduced blood flow to brain, not stopping it. In reality you only cut off enough to cause them to pass out. It doesn't take much and it doesn't take long.

I practice them all the time with no ill effects whatsoever.

Kevin, what makes your practice "relatively safe"? How do you control the degree to which you reduce the flow of blood to the brain? How do you know that it's "enough" to cause them to pass out and no more? And how does someone learn such things, such that they can practice "safely"? Clearly trial and error is not the way.

Mary Eastland
01-02-2012, 08:17 PM
When uke feels like they are being choked at our dojo, they slap out. Nage releases immediately. We never practice to the point of a brown out or a pass out.

David Orange
01-02-2012, 08:17 PM
... Blood chokes in which you reduce blood flow to the brain are more effective and relatively safe. Note I said reduced blood flow to brain, not stopping it. In reality you only cut off enough to cause them to pass out. It doesn't take much and it doesn't take long.

I practice them all the time with no ill effects whatsoever.

The way this was explained to me (by an olympic judo coach) is that we're not really cutting off the blood flow, but sort of squeezing it up into the head such that it increases the pressure on the brain, which causes blackout.

I used to do them all the time, in both roles. As long as the partner knows how to choke safely (within the tolerances for judo), you can do these things over and over with no harm.

Two caveats for anyone trying this (which I'm sure Kevin knows better than I): the partner must know how to choke without causing damage, so don't try this with just anyone or they can crush your windpipe for you; second, you shouldn't knock your partner all the way out. They should tap at the time when they can see that your choke is becoming effective and they can't escape --just before they are losing consciousness.

And one more: if you get knocked out too many times, it can cause brain damage. So don't let your partner put you out all the way. If they do, don't practice with them again.

In short, don't try this without serious instruction from someone who really knows. Get a good judo teacher to show you how it works.

Happy New Year!

David

David Orange
01-02-2012, 08:22 PM
Kevin, what makes your practice "relatively safe"? How do you control the degree to which you reduce the flow of blood to the brain? How do you know that it's "enough" to cause them to pass out and no more? And how does someone learn such things, such that they can practice "safely"? Clearly trial and error is not the way.

These things are well known by long-time grapplers. There are safe and dangerous ways to choke someone and when you know some of them pretty well, you can tell when it's "enough". You don't even have to cause them to pass out in practice. On the street...well...you wouldn't be doing it if it were not an emergency, I would assume...But it's just like anything else. How much is "enough" shiho nage or ikkyu? When you've trained enough in it, you get the feel for it.

The way to learn is to get with a good judo or jujutsu teacher and let them show you under controlled and guided circumstances.

Otherwise, choking can be very dangerous. Make sure the person who's choking you knows what they are doing or they will certainly injure your throat before you can blink--even and untrained person.

Best wishes.

David

Conrad Gus
01-03-2012, 10:42 AM
These things are well known by long-time grapplers. There are safe and dangerous ways to choke someone and when you know some of them pretty well, you can tell when it's "enough". You don't even have to cause them to pass out in practice.

What prompted the original question from me was watching a BJJ grading that my friend was taking. To them, applying a choke and tapping out is not a big deal. It's no more scary or stressful than our nikkyo pin. They always tap and the person applying the move always releases immediately.

After the tests were over, the teacher doing the testing awarded the new belts and ceremonially choked/strangled each person with their new belt while they were standing up. It looked a bit freaky, but they were all explicitly instructed to tap when they started to feel it. Some of the guys let it go a tiny bit too long before tapping - they had to shake themselves awake a little bit afterwards.

It looked pretty safe and effective the way they were practicing it.

Phil Van Treese
01-03-2012, 11:01 AM
Who doesn't practice chokes???? In Tomiki we practice, and I teach, chokes all the time. The last count I took is that I still have all my students so none have died from being choked. Maybe Judo shouldn't have chokes if they're so dangerous. Chokes are a great equalizer. If someone attacks you and you get a choke on him, he'll panic, forget about the attack and try to breathe. If there are more than 1 people, you can use him as a shield or drop him to the ground and go after the next attacker. If you are so scared of chokes, then either you haven't been properly taught or have never experienced a well taught choke where there is no damage to anyone.

Keith Larman
01-03-2012, 11:19 AM
Looks like some posts I put up vanished in the RAID crash. So fwiw I'll try to put some different posts together in to one and add a few thoughts that occurred to me afterwards. All apologies if it seems random, but...

Many moons ago I enjoyed some time in Judo. I recall a kindly, small, spindly old fella demonstrating hadaka jime on me. I still *vividly* remember my initial reaction which was like my head was about to pop off just like a pimple (sorry, but it is about the best explanation of the feeling). I agree that there are times when it feels like the pressure in your head is going up. I don't know if it *really* is, but it is a distinctive and unmistakable feeling. And it seemed like only a few blinks of an eye before I was fuzzed then gone.

There is a distinctive "Oh CRAP!" feeling that happens when it is applied. And frankly I've seen it happen a few times for the first time for some people and their reaction is always the same -- big eyes, jolting, etc. I think there is some sort of deep reptilian part of the brain that reacts to having the flow cut that is simply normal and natural. And if you're not experienced in what it feels like the reactions are fairly predictable as Mr. Clark has already pointed out.

Not that long ago I was chatting about martial arts with a friend of mine who is *highly* experienced in knife fighting styles. Well, we got talking about things like hadaka jime (rear naked choke in my understanding). I said that properly administered it can be a very difficult thing to deal with. His response was "well, not if I have a knife in my hands". So since we were talking and we had a training knife we decided to see what would happen. My only request was for him to allow me to get in to position cleanly first because I simply didn't want to run the risk of damaging his neck or throat. So I got in to place with no pressure and said "okay, remember to tap out if you need to, but here I go". So I tightened the jime and the first thing I feel is his tightening up (normal - they sort of "jolt" especially the first time they've ever felt it) then I heard his knife hit the ground. I let go immediately thinking "Oh, crap, I must have hurt him." Well, no, I hadn't. He had never had one applied. When it clicked in he simply dropped his weapon and started to flail about. That's when I let go thinking I'd hurt him. So an *experienced* guy who on any day can filet me from here to Sunday with decades of training with that specific weapon *dropped it*.

Of course this is just one case, an anecdote, but also consistent with my experience of how people react to a properly applied hadaka jime. There's not much escape there and given the shock and time constaints *if done correctly* it is a devastating and rather decisive technique. In my experience at least.

Of course he let me get in to position cleanly. But this was to test the idea. So there are issues there as well.

Another observation is that the instances I've heard of regarding injuries are mostly during untrained idiots doing what they've seen on the tube (either tv or youtube) and hurting each other. Other instances are the LEO involved incidents where they were using more of an arm-bar across the windpipe to crush everything. Good for pain compliance, I suppose, but significantly more dangerous especially if the person receiving is flailing or isn't feeling pain for whatever reason. I used Hadaka jime as my example of the technique because properly applied it won't even tend to leave a bruise let alone any serious damage. Of *course* it involved shutting down the brain due to cutting off oxygen flow to the brain. That by definition is of course more dangerous, but I've not heard of anyone ever being injured in training doing this sort of thing "correctly" (i.e., well trained). Now I've seen and received injuries doing any variety of other things in Aikido that hobble me today. But no ill effects that I know of from being choked out a few times. Hmmm, maybe that pillow drooling... Have to think about that... ;)

Anyway, my experience is that it is a devastatingly effective technique done correctly. I do not practice (nor would I ever think of teaching) any windpipe crushing techniques. Too dangerous IMHO. I have, however, taught classes in Aikido about chokes (kubishime) and when I have the right students in class I'll demonstrate what it feels like to have a hadaka jime applied. I have never let one go longer than just a brief second -- that has been overwhelmingly convincing to each person thus far that it is effective. I do this to remind them why it is so important to avoid getting caught in one. There are things you do to make it difficult to get something like a hadaka-jime. And I want them to understand the difference between someone choking painfully on the windpipe is a different event from someone cutting off flow. And frankly many "chokes" applied by amateurs are either extremely dangerous or completely useless as they don't know what they're trying to accomplish. So the teaching is about making sure students understand what's going on and how it feels.

Hopefully I gathered together all my old points.

Chuck Clark
01-03-2012, 05:37 PM
Well written Keith. l began learning shimewaza from Ernie Cates Sensei in 1965, soft, precise application with almost "snake-like" arms and hands applying sudden pressure in the right places with a slight "wiggle" in the movement... the shimewaza takes seemingly instant effect. It is not blocking the airway. One person said that it seemed like it was like a "gentle caress" and then the lights went out. These are not "chokes." Proper terminology, no matter what the language, is very important.

People that are trying "chokes" are very dangerous because they almost always apply pressure to the larynx to cut off the air. It's very easy to injure your partner this way. I don't allow this sort of "choking" in my dojo or organization. These are combative techniques in my opinion.

Train safely.

Kevin Leavitt
01-03-2012, 05:55 PM
Kevin, what makes your practice "relatively safe"? How do you control the degree to which you reduce the flow of blood to the brain? How do you know that it's "enough" to cause them to pass out and no more? And how does someone learn such things, such that they can practice "safely"? Clearly trial and error is not the way.

Good question. Uke has a responsibility to tap. Nage also has a responsibility to recognize what is going on in the situation as well. You also have an instructor who should be watching and controlling the situation as well. I have been choked to passing out a few times. It was because I was too stubborn to admit I need to tap my opponent and thought I still had a chance!

The chokes don't happen immediately, you have 30 seconds or so to start feeling light headed and realize that things are getting dark!

Other than that, when a un-skilled student say gets a "air" choke...you have to tap before he applies it and let him know what is going on. Same with neck cranks. They can look like chokes, but are a different mechanism. Again, the instructor must be trained and know what is going on to control the situation.

Keith Larman
01-03-2012, 06:10 PM
The chokes don't happen immediately, you have 30 seconds or so to start feeling light headed and realize that things are getting dark!

Are you talking about a choke that closes the carotid or one that crushes the airway? Cause 30 seconds is a *long* time in my experience. 5-10 seconds is what I'd normally say when I've seen it done well.

There's a good article here I just found surfing around on the topic.

Article on choking in judo by an MD. (http://judoinfo.com/new/techniques/grappling-techniques/311-how-safe-is-choking-in-judo-by-ek-koiwai-md-)

FWIW.

Michael Hackett
01-03-2012, 07:46 PM
Reading Keith's referred article reminded me of a conversation I had a couple of years ago with Dr. Vincent DeMaio at a police conference on in-custody deaths. After reading a number of articles that suggested "choking out" an individual is life-threatening in all cases, I asked him specifically about the classic judo or police carotid restraint technique. As the article suggested, Dr. DeMaio told me that there was no recorded death related to the use of the judo technique in the sport, nor was there any documented death in police training.

I've been "choked out" in training on a number of occasions, both in police defensive tactics classes and on the mat with judo and BJJ players. The experience was exactly like going unconscious under high G forces in an aircraft (I once got to fly the backseat of an F-18 with the Blue Angels and I start going out at 5.9 G and I'm toast at 6.1 G). My vision starts to become tunnel vision and dark, and few seconds or less later, I'm happily napping away. When I recover I am lost for a few seconds and have no idea where I am or how I got there. I haven't found it to be unpleasant except for the sense of disorientation immediately upon recovery.

I don't feel the need to go out anymore and I will tap once the technique is firmly and properly applied. If I'm a little slow in tapping, I might start feeling the tunnel vision coming on. The best and most effective applications I've experienced were indeed snakelike and quite gentle.

I've used the carotid restraint a number of times on the street with violent suspects and it has never failed me and has never resulted in a suspect injury. On one occasion the carotid restraint literally saved my life. It is a good tool and I truly believe aikido folks should learn the technique, if nothing else in order to learn how to defend against it.

Keith Larman
01-03-2012, 08:04 PM
Reading Keith's referred article reminded me of a conversation I had a couple of years ago with Dr. Vincent DeMaio at a police conference on in-custody deaths. After reading a number of articles that suggested "choking out" an individual is life-threatening in all cases, I asked him specifically about the classic judo or police carotid restraint technique. As the article suggested, Dr. DeMaio told me that there was no recorded death related to the use of the judo technique in the sport, nor was there any documented death in police training.

I've been "choked out" in training on a number of occasions, both in police defensive tactics classes and on the mat with judo and BJJ players. The experience was exactly like going unconscious under high G forces in an aircraft (I once got to fly the backseat of an F-18 with the Blue Angels and I start going out at 5.9 G and I'm toast at 6.1 G). My vision starts to become tunnel vision and dark, and few seconds or less later, I'm happily napping away. When I recover I am lost for a few seconds and have no idea where I am or how I got there. I haven't found it to be unpleasant except for the sense of disorientation immediately upon recovery.

That tracks quite well with my experience as well. It's not all that horrible to experience, just at first your physical reaction is one of "something is very wrong here...". Then you come back with a bit of "what the hell just happened? Oh, yeah..." mentally.

I don't feel the need to go out anymore and I will tap once the technique is firmly and properly applied. If I'm a little slow in tapping, I might start feeling the tunnel vision coming on. The best and most effective applications I've experienced were indeed snakelike and quite gentle.

With ya 100% on that one. The first few times I kept on trying to get out only to wake up later. Being a little calmer, a little older, and not at all with any question about how it works I tap out the moment I feel that they've got it. It's really over at that point and I'm at that stage of my life where I can easily ack that I'm on the losing end...

I've used the carotid restraint a number of times on the street with violent suspects and it has never failed me and has never resulted in a suspect injury. On one occasion the carotid restraint literally saved my life. It is a good tool and I truly believe aikido folks should learn the technique, if nothing else in order to learn how to defend against it.

Out of curiosity and understanding if you do not want to reply, were you able to apply them without sustaining any injuries yourself? In other words, did any of the suspects manage to mount any sort of response once you were in position and applying the carotid restraint?

Michael Hackett
01-03-2012, 09:35 PM
Yes, I did on the one occasion where I was in serious trouble. I'll set the stage a little. I was working as a resident deputy on a weekend and was dispatched to a camping area to deal with a disturbance. I found the suspect at his campsite and the complainants were close by. The suspect had entered the victim's tent while she and her boyfriend slept and he reportedly groped her. He was drunk and pretty powerfully built - as it turns out he was a power lifter and the fight was on. My nearest back up was about a half hour away and the other civilians in the area were too wasted to assist me. I finally got behind him and started to apply the carotid restraint. He panicked and jumped straight up into the air, taking me with him. We landed on our left sides with me taking the impact on my left shoulder and breaking it. He was growling like a deranged dog and still trying to get free, all the while making comments about my heritage and how much shorter my life span was about to be. I believed him at that point. I still had my right arm in position and I was able to apply pressure by catching my right fingertips on my jawline to effect the technique. Thankfully he went nappy-bye and I was able to get him cuffed before he woke up. I called for back-up and an ambulance and sat on his upper back until help arrived. Six weeks in a sling and six more weeks of PT and I was able to return to full duty.

Obviously I made a couple of mistakes. No, I couldn't wait for back up before dealing with the complaint. In the rural settings an officer usually has to act and such was the case this evening. When he leapt in the air, I should have let go and tried again when he crashed by himself. This was in the late 70s and we didn't have portable radios or TASERS, but we did have batons and MACE. I didn't like using MACE because it just wasn't all that effective on anyone but other cops and bystanders.

I have received a couple of elbows in the ribs when using the RNC, never to even a painful degree. As I said earlier, it is an excellent technique when properly applied, but I don't advocate doing it one-handed.

Keith Larman
01-04-2012, 12:35 AM
Wow, interesting story. Now I'm going to have to consider how I'd apply it one-armed... I can see how catching your jawline might work if you arm is long enough.

Oh, and I was going to say that sounded like a great time for a TASER.

Michael Hackett
01-04-2012, 01:26 AM
Another little interesting piece of the puzzle was my flashlight. We all carried the heavy, black flashlights at the time and there had been some real controversy about striking suspects with the flashlight during that period. Some of us converted to plastic lights and I was carrying a six-cell plastic light that evening. During the fight I struck the suspect on the shoulder with my new PC light and I don't know which of us was most amazed at the stream of flying batteries sailing across the desert sky! I put my Kel-Lite back in service when I returned to work.

Kevin Leavitt
01-04-2012, 02:41 PM
Are you talking about a choke that closes the carotid or one that crushes the airway? Cause 30 seconds is a *long* time in my experience. 5-10 seconds is what I'd normally say when I've seen it done well.

There's a good article here I just found surfing around on the topic.

Article on choking in judo by an MD. (http://judoinfo.com/new/techniques/grappling-techniques/311-how-safe-is-choking-in-judo-by-ek-koiwai-md-)

FWIW.

Nah..your right....I don't really time em...but thinking about it...yeah 30 seconds is a long time. Typing too fast this morning. LOL. I think it might seem like 30 seconds, but 5 is about right!

Thanks for the great post on the subject Keith!

Kevin Leavitt
01-04-2012, 02:47 PM
I've seen people react in different ways. I have had a guys eyes roll in the back of his head, go rigid, (tetanus) and spasm for a few seconds. Most just go limp. I have also had a few come back to life and fight. Alot of folks pick up mentally where they left off even though that moment has passed. Response vary.

In the 2007 European BJJ Championships, I choked a russian guy out, the ref did not see it, the guy did not tap and simply went limp, I let go and he simply came back and kept fighitng! It then took me another two minutes to beat him on points! I have the video somewhere!

Belt_Up
01-05-2012, 09:11 PM
There's a good article here I just found surfing around on the topic.

Article on choking in judo by an MD. (http://judoinfo.com/new/techniques/grappling-techniques/311-how-safe-is-choking-in-judo-by-ek-koiwai-md-)

FWIW.

I can't see this 'presenting proof' thing catching on, but I hope it does. :)

Thank you for this, useful article.

Keith Larman
01-05-2012, 10:35 PM
I can't see this 'presenting proof' thing catching on, but I hope it does. :)

Thank you for this, useful article.

Yeah, I know what you mean. The article actually raised a possibility I hadn't considered -- namely the possible involvement of the vagus nerve.

This only became something I know about because our daughter has spontaneously fainted a few times. Usually after standing a while or when she's not feeling well or overheated. We had her checked out and took her to a pediatric neurologist to make sure nothing was wrong. Basically the vagus nerve runs up along the carotid. And part of it's job is communicating a variety of things about the state of many of the body's organs to the brain. One thing that can stimulate the nerve is having blood drawn or massage of the carotid sinus. That in turn can cause vaso-vagal syncope. Or, in other words she was simply prone to fainting when the conditions are correct. Something my mother also had when she was a young woman, or so I'm told.

I'm wondering about this because there's been time I've seen people go night-night *really* fast when someone who really does it well applies it. So I wonder if in some people it's not just the physical stoppage of the blood flow but also involves the stimulation of the vagus nerve which runs right along it (the snaking arms along with the gentle "shaking" movement that some learn). If they are able to stimulate the vagus in some way it would be a very fast reaction.

So hows that for adding speculation on top of good research... ;)

To quote Alice... Curiouser and curiouser...

Edgecrusher
01-06-2012, 08:08 AM
As part of my training and preparations for advancement, knowing chokes is necessary. In the five years I have been learning Tomiki my Sensei has exposed me early on with the basics of choking, building a resistance, and knowing when to tap out and when to release. The other students and I have never "passed out". I am being taught by a man who learned from Tomiki Shihan himself and put all my trust in my Sensei for teaching us the correct way to do it. We always practice safety first.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-07-2012, 07:58 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean. The article actually raised a possibility I hadn't considered -- namely the possible involvement of the vagus nerve.

...

Herings nerve. Vagus doesn't play a big role here.

PeterR
01-07-2012, 09:34 PM
Did Tomiki teach chokes in the Aikido context - I don't think he did. I can think of only one kata in one of the formal kata series that includes a defence from a choke. You need to learn to apply the choke as uke so I guess you can say they have a place but really chokes are not part of Tomiki's Aikido.

Now that said - I spent a lot of time exploring transitioning into chokes in Himeji. I picked up some chokes in the Judo dojo and was fascinated by them. Also unconventially I practiced going going to ground and continuing randori once there but I think both cases (chokes and ground work) are contrary to the basic idea of Aikido. Once you engage in either your mobility is extremely restricted.

As part of my training and preparations for advancement, knowing chokes is necessary. In the five years I have been learning Tomiki my Sensei has exposed me early on with the basics of choking, building a resistance, and knowing when to tap out and when to release. The other students and I have never "passed out". I am being taught by a man who learned from Tomiki Shihan himself and put all my trust in my Sensei for teaching us the correct way to do it. We always practice safety first.

CitoMaramba
01-08-2012, 06:09 PM
Here is the abstract of a very recent (published November 2011) study on the cause of loss of consciousness during Vascular Neck Restraint. I have highlighted the main conclusions of the study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121
J Appl Physiol. 2011 Nov 17. [Epub ahead of print]
Mechanism of Loss of Consciousness during Vascular Neck Restraint.
Mitchell JR, Roach DE, Tyberg JV, Belenkie I, Sheldon RS.
Source

1University of Calgary.
Abstract

Vascular neck restraint (VNR) is a technique that police officers may employ to control combative individuals. As the mechanism of unconsciousness is not completely understood, we tested the hypothesis that VNR simply compresses the carotid arteries thereby decreasing middle cerebral artery blood flow. Twenty-four healthy police officers (age 35±4 years) were studied. Heart rate (HR), arterial pressure, rate of change of pressure (dP/dt) and stroke volume (SV) were measured using infrared finger photoplethysmography. Bilateral mean middle cerebral artery flow velocity (MCAVmean) was measured using transcranial Doppler ultrasound. Neck pressure was measured using flat, fluid-filled balloon transducers positioned over both carotid bifurcations. To detect ocular fixation, subjects were asked to focus on a pen that was moved from side to side. VNR was released 1-2 sec after ocular fixation. Ocular fixation occurred in 16 subjects (time 9.5±0.4 [SEM] sec). Pressures over the R and L carotid arteries were 257±22 and 146 ±18 mmHg, respectively. VNR decreased MCAVmean (R 45±3 to 8±4 cm/s; L 53±2 to 10±3 cm/s) and SV (92±4 to 75±4 ml) (P < 0.001). Mean arterial pressure (MAP), dP/dt and HR did not change significantly. We conclude that the most important mechanism in loss of consciousness was decreased cerebral blood flow caused by carotid artery compression. The small decrease in CO (9.6 to 7.5 L/min) observed would not seem to be important as there was no change in MAP. In addition, with no significant change in HR, ventricular contractility or MAP, the carotid sinus baroreceptor reflex appears to contribute little to the response to VNR.

PMID:
22096121
[PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Keith Larman
01-08-2012, 06:41 PM
Well, just to toss something out as an ex-researcher... Studies like that are great however one must also step back and look at a larger picture. What is the question they are trying to answer? In this case it is about what is happening when a police officer applies a "standard" type of choke.

In my experience as taught to police the restraint is quite "crude" compared to how some highly trained people are able to apply something like hadaka jime (and I am not in that group myself either). You will hear stories of those (repeated in this thread as well) who are seemingly able to apply it in a very subtle way that seems to cause unconsciousness to come on faster than otherwise expected. I'll also add my anecdotal observation with myself that one time a very skilled elderly judoka did it to me I had this feeling like "hmmm, he's very gentle" and then I woke up later. My *impression* was that it came on very quickly (too quickly) and possibly without the tunnel vision beforehand. And I'll add I remember him doing the same sort of "jiggling" movement others have mentioned right before I went night-night. However, it is hard to say because, well, who knows what ya miss when you go unconscious...

So... If we assume the choke holds are being done by a police officer with normal officer training I don't think I'd expect anything particularly interesting beyond what they found. So in terms of constructing an experiment the question they answered here was (most likely) that the average police officer is achieving unconsciousness in the subject via directly cutting off blood flow. I would say that's not surprising. The bigger question for me as someone who's experienced it differently a few times is what is happening with some of these highly trained guys with a very subtle technique? Are they getting more? Are they adding some whipped cream and a cherry on top of an otherwise very effective chocolate sundae... ;) Yeah, I'm hungry. I hate diets...

I know I don't have the skill to pull off what I've seen others do. But I can easily choke someone out from a hadaka jime and most anyone can be taught how to do it literally in minutes. The question I'm interested in is whether there is a difference between a "normal" application and some of the highly skilled applications?

Keith Larman
01-08-2012, 06:44 PM
And I should add that I'm not saying there is a difference. For all I know the subtlety and gentleness simply creates a different dynamic in terms of the experience on the receiving end. I honestly don't know, but since they did the study looking at the same things obviously there is some reason to consider it a possibility...

CitoMaramba
01-08-2012, 07:25 PM
It is unfortunate that the method of applying the Vascular Neck Restraint was not described in the abstract (only so much you can say in 250 words!). I would love to read the full-text of the paper.
It would be great to re-run the experiment with the VNR applied by an expert in shime-waza. Perhaps the tell-tale signs of vasovagal syncope associated with the carotid sinus baroreceptor reflex (bradycardia, decrease in mean arterial pressure) would be observed.

Keith Larman
01-08-2012, 08:13 PM
Yeah, well part of this for me is dealing with a daughter who is prone to vasovagal syncope. Quite a scare for us the first time so we ended up getting a lesson on what it was from a pediatric neurologist. A lot less scary in subsequent episodes but it did get me thinking about the idea that so-called sleeper holds might be more subtle than we thought...

It's all good. :) Well, except my daughter periodically passing out and smashing face first in to a wall or chair. That's not good.

CitoMaramba
01-08-2012, 09:49 PM
Herings nerve. Vagus doesn't play a big role here.
Actually, in cases of vaso-vagal syncope it does (hence, the "vagal"). The branch of the glossopharyngeal nerve to the carotid sinus ("Hering's nerve") carries the signals from the baroreceptors to the brainstem. If the baroreceptors sense increased blood pressure, a signal is sent from the brainstem via the vagus nerve to activate the parasympathetic nervous system to slow the heart (bradycardia).

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasovagal_response
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_bradycardia

Also, it would be good to resurrect this gem:
http://www.aikiweb.com/techniques/gunther1.html

Janet Rosen
01-08-2012, 10:40 PM
My husband is prone to vasovagal under certain forms of stress and some folks get it from bearing down to move bowels. Total parasympathetic chain: low heart rate, low BP, cold sweat and the potential to faint from the low BP.

Michael Hackett
01-08-2012, 11:11 PM
It's also amazing just how many males are found dead on the commode by first responsers. The cause of death in the cases I've seen has been attributed to heart attacks and I've never discussed the issue with our medical examiners, but now I'm starting to wonder about the physiology involved in a simple BM.

kewms
01-09-2012, 12:47 AM
This article is mostly about recovery from the incident, but starts with a good explanation of how chokes can go horribly wrong, even for young, healthy athletes:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/stroke_recovery_peters.pdf

Not a reason not to train chokes, but definitely a reason to take any symptoms you have after being choked very, VERY seriously.

Katherine

PeterR
01-09-2012, 12:58 AM
This article is mostly about recovery from the incident, but starts with a good explanation of how chokes can go horribly wrong, even for young, healthy athletes:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/stroke_recovery_peters.pdf

Not a reason not to train chokes, but definitely a reason to take any symptoms you have after being choked very, VERY seriously.

Katherine

Which brings the question full circle - why don't we train for chokes. Technical, moral, historical????

Keith Larman
01-09-2012, 09:19 AM
This article is mostly about recovery from the incident, ...

Katherine

Well, he's talking about some serious cranking on the head (hence neck) stuff here that cause the original tear. I'm not so sure that this sort of cranking is what most are talking about. There are a lot of throws that involve a hand to the chin turning the head, engaging the neck and using that as a lever point in a movement. Or throwing someone from what most could call a sort of "headlock". That can be very hard on the neck especially if being done by inexperienced people. Or done with too much enthusiasm.

But a rear naked choke, for example, doesn't involve a "crank", twist, or anything like that. If anything it is gentle to the vertebrae. From reading the article it sounds like a rather ferocious twist created the initial tear that resulted in the clot formation and problems arose from there. It wasn't the "choke" per se that precipitated the injury that was simply a "timebomb" waiting to go off, it was a severe cranking of the neck in a more grappling context.

Just trying to keep context here. There are forms of training in some arts that can be very hard on the neck, but those generally aren't actually chokes but are more throws and controls.

Just trying to be clear.

DonMagee
01-09-2012, 09:49 AM
I would think the reason you don't see many chokes trained in aikido is that it is really complicated and imho somewhat unrealistic to position, lock-in, and finish a standing choke.

If you look at most arts that use chokes heavily you will see they are done on the ground. Without a large grappling portion of training, you would be better to skip chokes.

Chuck Clark
01-09-2012, 10:55 AM
I would think the reason you don't see many chokes trained in aikido is that it is really complicated and imho somewhat unrealistic to position, lock-in, and finish a standing choke.

If you look at most arts that use chokes heavily you will see they are done on the ground. Without a large grappling portion of training, you would be better to skip chokes.

I understand the reasoning here, but I disagree... shimewaza when done properly can be done standing, from all four directions. Success is dependent, as all waza should be in my opinion, on properly applied kuzushi principles, taking the sente and keeping it.

After thought... of course, this really comes down to what brand of aiki practice you're training in and what their practice methods are like. Nothing disparaging intended, by the way... just different strokes for different folks.

Janet Rosen
01-09-2012, 10:59 AM
It's also amazing just how many males are found dead on the commode by first responsers. The cause of death in the cases I've seen has been attributed to heart attacks and I've never discussed the issue with our medical examiners, but now I'm starting to wonder about the physiology involved in a simple BM.

The vasovagal response is one thing that can happen as a result of it...that is likely to result in simply feeling terrible or fainting.
The other is that straining to pass stool can raise pressure (if you have a mirror in bathroom you can see if really cranking some abdominal and pelvic muscles makes the blood vessels in your neck pop out - fun in the bathroom!) and create more work for the heart - this is why heart attack and heart surgery patients are always put on stool softeners, to reduce the need to strain - hence the heart attack.

DonMagee
01-09-2012, 12:07 PM
I understand the reasoning here, but I disagree... shimewaza when done properly can be done standing, from all four directions. Success is dependent, as all waza should be in my opinion, on properly applied kuzushi principles, taking the sente and keeping it.

After thought... of course, this really comes down to what brand of aiki practice you're training in and what their practice methods are like. Nothing disparaging intended, by the way... just different strokes for different folks.

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I just said it is much more complicated and much less practical than say dumping them on their butt. I do however agree that with appropriate skill, you can choke a guy from standing. It seems to me however, that aikido was about trimming the superfluous techniques as part of it's creation. While choking is a great balancer on the ground, there are much easier and more efficient ways to balance the situation on your feet. Which is why I think standing chokes are largely ignored in all but the most showy of martial arts.

Again though, just personal opinion.

Anjisan
01-09-2012, 12:47 PM
IMO applying a choke can be can be quick and efficient. I remember attending a seminar given by one of the Gracie guys. There were about 30 of us attending and the instructor has us line up and one by one got choked by him. He did not choke us out, but is was seconds and I was seeing spots. He was quick, soft and smooth. If there had been a confrontation per se, I would have not wanted to continue which is how I believe chokes are used best. In randori I use the sleeper when I am using an Uke as a shield. I dont choke the person out because there is not time and it is not necessary. In instances when I have done this and move on in the randori, that individual is either bent over or on their knees grabbing their throat coughing, not coming after me.....exactly, The odds then just changed in my favor. Effective and very safe. What essentially you are doing as my friend says is, "Giving them something else to think about," I would think that is some street situations that a choke properly executed would be preferable to some of our typical Aikido responses where the attacker may take a header into the sidewalk or a table. In a one on one it may not be my first choice but it is definitely something I want in my tool belt.

Keith Larman
01-09-2012, 01:24 PM
Don:

I don't disagree with you depending on the context. With experienced grapplers it is truly tough to get one of those in to place. No doubt about it -- they know better than to leave that open and will work *very* hard to make it nearly impossible for you to get. But if one presented itself I'm sure you'd go for it, yes? Easy way out especially if you're up against a noob. So you train in it, yes? You learn it. You may not get to apply it in certain contexts, especially grappling with an experienced opponent. The bellicose drunk in a bar threatening someone else may not be a grappler or may be so impaired that he leaves that open. Hell, I had a very large friend years ago that I considered doing it to because he had about 5 tequila too many and was getting rather agitated with some other very large fella who wasn't in the mood to fight, but clearly would have been able to handle himself. My friend was just standing there being a total ass-hat and it would have been trivial for me to apply it. But I managed to shove him out the door before anything came of it instead.

In other words not all situations are grappling and it may not be an option in most situations anyway. But if the opportunity arises it is a decisive technique.

But no real argument here. I like to learn as much as possible. Whether I will ever have a chance to use it is pretty much irrelevant to me. I like training and learning. Shrug.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-09-2012, 02:01 PM
Here is the abstract of a very recent (published November 2011) study on the cause of loss of consciousness during Vascular Neck Restraint. I have highlighted the main conclusions of the study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121

Well, maybe they are correct, but I'd like to see how they explain cases of rolling okuri eri where people got dizzy with just taking the slack of the gi.

Michael Hackett
01-09-2012, 05:30 PM
Police agents are trained to apply the carotid restraint from standing and often do so. Once you have the arms in place, you step backwards to break the balance and take a knee while continuing to apply the technique. My earlier account describes how that sometimes doesn't work well. We are also trained to apply in a more "grappling" environment too.

Belt_Up
01-09-2012, 08:03 PM
(if you have a mirror in bathroom you can see if really cranking some abdominal and pelvic muscles makes the blood vessels in your neck pop out - fun in the bathroom!)

Aikiweb has the best discussions, I swear.

I don't think they're particularly difficult to learn (if someone manages to turn a little in a VNR, congratulations to them, they now have a forearm/biceps across their throat, which is a tad painful), and they do take effect quite quickly, but I don't think they're quick enough for multiple opponents.

The chap who had the stroke(s) was unlucky, but somehow I don't think a VNR was responsible ("my neck was forced into a compromising position", which the VNR does not do, it's actually strangely comfortable. It sounds more like one was applied and vigorous grappling ensued, which cause the torn artery), but still a good reminder to train safely and actually, you know, take advantage of modern medicine.

Alberto_Italiano
01-12-2012, 09:59 AM
personally, in a dojo i would stay away as possibile from any guy's neck - and also in a real fight one needs to be extra cautious: the gap from self defence to murder by a broken neck can be amazingly thin and, most of all, amazingly fast.

By and large I guess we stay away from chokes also for the same reason nage does not throw punches to defend him/herself - we may be supposed to be tough, but with techniques leverages and projections - and also then in a dojo caution is needed: a very bad (ie very good) shiho nage may make a guy fall squarely on his neck.

However, in the line we should not throw punches, in a real situation you can and in case one did not notice, when you're in a shiho nage, you can punch uke's face with his own hand once you've seized it (it just happens to be at the right height), even repeatedly, before you throw him.

grondahl
01-12-2012, 10:04 AM
personally, in a dojo i would stay away as possibile from any guy's neck - and also in a real fight one needs to be extra cautious: the gap from self defence to murder by a broken neck can be amazingly thin and, most of all, amazingly fast.


A clean rear naked choke is easier on the neck than many forms of iriminage. I also think it´s extremly hard to break the neck of someone that isn´t really relaxed.

Alberto_Italiano
01-12-2012, 10:05 AM
A clean rear naked choke is easier on the neck than many forms of iriminage. I also think it´s extremly hard to break the neck of someone that isn´t really relaxed.

breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.

Phil Van Treese
01-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Chokes weren't part of Tomiki Aikido???? Who told you that??? Maybe you should have told Tomiki Shihan that because we did chokes, regularly, and especially from shomen and yokomen attacks. They were taught as judo chokes since Tomiki Shihan was also an 8th Dan in judo as well. There are some Tomiki practioners out there that probably weren't taught chokes. I don't know why you weren't taught chokes but I sure was because more than once I had a sore neck after working with Tomiki Shihan himself.
Chokes should be properly taught so if you want to learn chokes, talk to someone who has a good judo background or get into a judo class. Chokes are not dangerous, you won't pass out if you tap, you aren't going to be damaged and all the other things that are said about chokes. The fear of the unknown will get you everytime. We don't break necks either. You can be choked from any position at any time. Chokes can put someone out in a heartbeat if needed. If you have a fear of chokes, face them in a judo class. Once you understand the chokes and overcome your fear, it's not a big deal. But please, if you have never done a proper choke before and you haven';t been taught by a qualified instructor who knows chokes, don't make all kinds of irrational statements about them. If anyone is in the Tampa Bay area and want to learn chokes, feel free to come by the dojo. We'll teach you properly and you'll see they are a good defense. And I'm not "choking" about it.

grondahl
01-13-2012, 02:48 AM
breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.

So no iriminage, kubinage, shomen ate, etc waza either?

Belt_Up
01-13-2012, 06:41 AM
And I'm not "choking" about it.

Couldn't have done better myself. I salute you, sir.

Mary Eastland
01-13-2012, 08:27 AM
breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.

We must train very differently. When we practice chokes no one is close to dying.

Belt_Up
01-13-2012, 08:49 AM
breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.

That's a strange attitude from someone who, and I quote (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20660):

am with the Tantra way to initiation, with the ghora (the horrific), with the second path to enlightenment: for that path, you don't get illuminated by cultivating harmony or by removing desire, but by mastering the horrific. It's the path of the charnel grounds, if you ever heard of that.
It is neither better nor worse than the other way: yet, it is just another well established way to attain that goal...some guys have a preference for attaining mastery by confronting the brutal and the unpleasant. In this mindset, you are ready only when you master dread and fear - when all the daemons may come to you threatening you, and yet you're utterly ummoved.

You grow into the tempest - if the tempest, of course, doesn't kill or maims you first (which it has a regrettable tendency to do...).

So do you rock up to your Tantrist training sessions and say, "Right chaps, as per usual we're with the ghora today, path of the charnel grounds, confronting the brutal and the unpleasant, mastering dread and fear, remaining unmoved by the threats of daemons and growing into a tempest, etcetera and oh, yes, don't touch each other's necks."?

Honestly curious.

Chuck Clark
01-13-2012, 09:55 AM
We must train very differently. When we practice chokes no one is close to dying.

We certainly must "train differently".... we, of course, are always close to dying. This understanding and becoming calm and accepting that each breath is one less is part of learning to really live. In my understanding, this is part of budo practice.

Regards,

kewms
01-13-2012, 11:12 AM
We must train very differently. When we practice chokes no one is close to dying.

Um... If you've choked someone out, they are, by definition, close to dying. You've cut off the blood flow to their brain, and they *will* die unless you let go in a timely manner.

Which is not to say that chokes shouldn't be practiced, just that one should respect the seriousness of what one is doing.

Katherine

Mary Eastland
01-13-2012, 01:26 PM
@Katherine:

A choke can be practiced slowly and carefully so no one is in danger. We don't "choke people out.." We practice chokes as a defense.

@ Chuck...I don't understand what you don't understand. I meant, of course, that we don't almost choke people...please see above. When a person slaps out nage releases.

Basia Halliop
01-13-2012, 01:56 PM
I've never seen chokes practiced to the point of someone actually losing consciousness... We all tap out way before then...

Belt_Up
01-13-2012, 01:58 PM
Um... If you've choked someone out, they are, by definition, close to dying. You've cut off the blood flow to their brain, and they *will* die unless you let go in a timely manner.

Which is not to say that chokes shouldn't be practiced, just that one should respect the seriousness of what one is doing.

Katherine

You haven't actually cut off blood supply to the brain, you've merely reduced it. You reduce the amount of blood and therefore oxygen the brain receives. But the majority of the blood flow (and oxygen) carries on unimpeded. There is a rather large safety margin, in terms of time, between the person passing out, and brain damage setting in. Of course you let go as soon as they nod off anyway, just to be safe, if you even take the technique that far.

CitoMaramba
01-13-2012, 04:03 PM
Well, maybe they are correct, but I'd like to see how they explain cases of rolling okuri eri where people got dizzy with just taking the slack of the gi.

Perhaps you would like to design an experiment to answer that research question?

Kevin Leavitt
01-13-2012, 04:57 PM
Heck, everyone is close to dying. It is relative. Every minute that passes you are that much closer! I think Chuck is going some where along those lines. Budo is about making you conscious or aware so you live your life accordingly.

Chuck Clark
01-13-2012, 06:05 PM
@ Mary, I don't remember "not understanding"... but then I'm getting older (thankfully!) My point is, I live and practice in a particular way because I understand that we are all dying with each breath... until we are not.

@ Kevin, sometimes I think those of us that have been in harm's way have experienced one of the greatest lessons possible... What a joy!!!! Gardez sûre mon frère.

Chuck Clark
01-13-2012, 06:30 PM
I didn't realize there was a time limit for editing.. so here's the next part of the post above.

Rereading some of these posts, I realize there might be a feeling that to do something "dangerous" we must always go slowly and carefully... etc.

Of course, we must train as safely as possible, but when expertly done, budo waza can be practiced and applied as fast as humans can move. This must be a level of training that you grow into after many years of proper practice between partners that trust each other. At Kagami Biraki this weekend I will see men and women that can go as fast as humans can go with bokkuto and jo in Shinto Muso Ryu kata with no more than an inch or so as kime is reached. An inch between the end of the jo and the other person's eyes for example in answer to full speed and power attacking cuts from the uchi tachi.

In similar fashion, shimewaza can be expertly applied at full speed, full power with no injury in answer to an attack that is full speed and intent. Many shimewaza do not include grasping the keikogi for example. There is no twisting or wrenching of the neck, etc., etc. These descriptions are not braggadocios or boastful... just true. I will say that this level of training is at very high level and isn't done until it can be done with a high expectation of no harm being done even though the risk is high.

Regards,

tarik
01-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Great thread.

PeterR
01-14-2012, 09:48 PM
In similar fashion, shimewaza can be expertly applied at full speed, full power with no injury in answer to an attack that is full speed and intent. Many shimewaza do not include grasping the keikogi for example. There is no twisting or wrenching of the neck, etc., etc. These descriptions are not braggadocios or boastful... just true. I will say that this level of training is at very high level and isn't done until it can be done with a high expectation of no harm being done even though the risk is high.

Time for a me too post. Many budo techniques end up positional and by that I mean stopping just short of full execution. Those that don't rely on action by uke to make it safe either by taking ukemi or again by positioning. How techniques end up and what compromises are made depend on the skill level and agreement of participants.

Chokes in themselves are no different. There is no need to progress to the point of damage either through wrenching or unconsciousness. The value of taking a choke to completion on rare occasion to see what it feels like is another question (something I favour under controlled circumstance).

Risk is relative.

Chuck Clark
01-14-2012, 11:29 PM
Hi Peter, it's good to see a post from you. I agree with what you wrote. In the case of shimewaza, when it's done correctly, the effect is there, and when maitta is given, the pressure should be released instantly. I've never seen any damage done when the waza is done correctly. Judoka using the standard shimewaza using the lapels or sleeves of the keikogi in shiai sometimes leave a gi burn, etc. But these are not the type of waza I'm really writing about. I have used these "soft, wiggly" shimewaza in shiai, especially when I weighed 175 pounds and was in the open weight class. I used to really like the big guys that thought overwhelming strength was the thing that determined the outcome. To be honest, it really is strength; however, it's minimum strength working along with the strength of the other person that gets the job done. :- )

PeterR
01-15-2012, 12:02 AM
Hi Peter, it's good to see a post from you. I agree with what you wrote. In the case of shimewaza, when it's done correctly, the effect is there, and when maitta is given, the pressure should be released instantly. I've never seen any damage done when the waza is done correctly. Judoka using the standard shimewaza using the lapels or sleeves of the keikogi in shiai sometimes leave a gi burn, etc. But these are not the type of waza I'm really writing about. I have used these "soft, wiggly" shimewaza in shiai, especially when I weighed 175 pounds and was in the open weight class. I used to really like the big guys that thought overwhelming strength was the thing that determined the outcome. To be honest, it really is strength; however, it's minimum strength working along with the strength of the other person that gets the job done. :- )

I don't know if you remember my trials and tribulation posts when I went for the Judo Shodan but in that particular competition it was all non-gi chokes and ground work. Not at all what you would expect from a aikido guy but hey it worked. Chokes are fascinating and getting into a position where they can be applied against someone who knows whats coming and does not want to get there is a study in itself. Did I mention I love chokes.

CitoMaramba
01-15-2012, 04:37 AM
In this clip, Yasuhisa Shioda Kancho uses shime-waza to counter a punch and kick by Nicholas Pettas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aMBmTxe2Btk#t=274s

Chuck Clark
01-15-2012, 08:17 AM
I've seen that video before, and the hadaka jime was effective. At the last as kime was achieved, it looked to me as if the forces were going both in and up into the jaw. That works, but as the video shows it takes a bit longer for the effect to develop. The force going into the jaw is painful and often the uke taps due to pain. If the goal is to get uke to tap, it succeeds with people who will tap.

Chuck Clark
01-15-2012, 08:21 AM
I don't know if you remember my trials and tribulation posts when I went for the Judo Shodan but in that particular competition it was all non-gi chokes and ground work. Not at all what you would expect from a aikido guy but hey it worked. Chokes are fascinating and getting into a position where they can be applied against someone who knows whats coming and does not want to get there is a study in itself. Did I mention I love chokes.

Yes, I do remember your posts from that time period. Just remember, there's "aikido guys" and then there's "aikido guys".... and gals also... :straightf :)

Alberto_Italiano
01-16-2012, 07:40 AM
That's a strange attitude from someone who, and I quote (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20660):

So do you rock up to your Tantrist training sessions and say, "Right chaps, as per usual we're with the ghora today, path of the charnel grounds, confronting the brutal and the unpleasant, mastering dread and fear, remaining unmoved by the threats of daemons and growing into a tempest, etcetera and oh, yes, don't touch each other's necks."?

Honestly curious.

I hope I can dispel your curiosity. As a matter of fact, it is easy.
The fact you find yoruself comfortable with thinking the unpleasant, that for some reason or the other you find your mental attitutde more attuned to make an attempt to pursue (pursue, nobody is here speaking of attaining it - no one can be so conceited, not even me gee LOL) illumination by confronting the unpleasant, does not mean you're into slaughtering people.

Dealing with the unpleasant does not imply you're an unpleasant guy; dealing with the imagery of violence does not mean you're a violent guy, dealing with the imagery of wrathful deities does not mean you are supposed to go around eviscerating guys.
Ideally, it should mean that no matter how unpleasant a situation, you won't be deterred in facing it.

Of course we all know of persons that deal with that imagery and are indeed pathological: news show them to us. But those are not persons who solicit that imagery within themseleves in order to administer manage and deal with it: those are guys to whom that imagery imposes itself to them. They don't master their own imagination: they're victims of it.

So facing brutality, does not mean you will face it slashing throats. It means you won't be deterred, again ideally, by a guy attempting to slash yours.

As a matter of fact, I could explain this in a deeper fashion.

Human beings live on two levels - and this is a proved fact (no one contends this). We live on the conscious level, and on an unconscious one (the unconscious level is not something which can be conveneintly ascribed whatever to - dreams and action describe it or give hints about its objectivity).

If on the conscious level you are all for harmony and the pleasant, the imaginery of the unpleasant won't sit idle and it is not that because you don't think of it it does not exist within you: it will be simply confined into the unconscious, where it would go on exerting its influence on you. Only, it will do in a silent way and it will eventually dictate its own pace and rules at times, as you're unaware of it.

If on the conscious level you're all for the wrathful deities, the imaginery of the pleasant will be in the unconscious.

What is the outcome of this?
Exactly what you see here: guys that are all, in their conscious lives, for aiki, for harmony, for non-resistance, for mild "gentler" aikido, all of a sudden are also into strangling, chocking, doing things that may break a neck - and all of this without a peep: it is the violence they harbour inside that, unrecognized from within their unconscious, takes its toll.
Fatalities may ensue. This is why a guy like Seagal won't maim you on the dojo, but a very very gentle and considerate aikidoka, one day may happen to cause you an "accident".
That's how the unconscious work: by accidents.

On the other hand you see guys who are for dealing consciously with attacks that are violent, brutal (as real attacks would be, normally - exception made for drunkards...), who are the same guys who would actually refrain from strangling other guys.

That grabbing a neck is positively extremely dangerous, goes without contention.

The fact so many persons seem to find it suitable, is because their murderous instincts are buried within themselves, they never came to term with those, and so this is how they manifest themselves: they think they're doing the right thing, and yet they do things that can be murderous.

The more you think about the ghora, by soliciting the thoughts and not because the thoughts come to you by themselves (that would be psychosis...), the less lethal you will be.

Belt_Up
01-16-2012, 08:17 AM
That grabbing a neck is positively extremely dangerous, goes without contention.

I think it's been clearly contended here, in this thread, if nowhere else, and with proof, too.

Alberto_Italiano
01-16-2012, 08:34 AM
I think it's been clearly contended here, in this thread, if nowhere else, and with proof, too.

Uuuuuup :-)

Demetrio Cereijo
01-16-2012, 09:50 AM
On the other hand you see guys who are for dealing consciously with attacks that are violent, brutal (as real attacks would be, normally - exception made for drunkards...), who are the same guys who would actually refrain from strangling other guys.
You mean the guys who pepper spray, taze, beat you with a baton or give you "lead poisoning" because (for various motives) they are not properly trained to safely, for everyone involved, choke their attackers into unconsciousness?

That grabbing a neck is positively extremely dangerous, goes without contention.
No, it isn't and it doesn't.

The fact so many persons seem to find it suitable, is because their murderous instincts are buried within themselves, they never came to term with those, and so this is how they manifest themselves: they think they're doing the right thing, and yet they do things that can be murderous.

Killing can be the right thing to do.

Alberto_Italiano
01-16-2012, 12:24 PM
Killing can be the right thing to do.

Point proven. Thank you.

Btw a line like that ought not to be tolerated on a forum.
That's how much aiki some aikidoka can be - that's what was smouldering beneath the ashes of so much "harmony" and "gentle" martial arts.
See?
Nietzsche and Freud were amply right.

As for chokes being assumed as not clearly murderous and as not proven as being definitely a potential and clear threat and danger to a human being's life, trying to argue that grabbing a guy's neck is not extremely dangerous and potentially murderous (like any physician could explain to you with ample demonstration) is like trying to explain that shooting somebody in a leg cannot sever his tight artery and so it is safe

It is like arguing that a gun is basically safe. But when you're at gunshots, you're into killing grounds just as much as you are when you grab a neck assuming that you won't break it.

First comes the unconscious and unadmitted desire to kill, then come the explanations and the reasons to do it.

Than in an aiki forum a line like the one saying that killing can be not only condoned but even encouraged as the right thing to do (it is, obviously enough, open to the subjective speculation of anyobody to decide, then, when those "right" motives came...), it is such a line so beyond any argument and any "aiki" related topics, that shouldn't even need to be discussed. Neither to be raised.
It's a startling line, highly dis-educative on a forum open to public inspection also by so many beginners.

Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-16-2012, 01:01 PM
Point proven. Thank you.
Prego

Btw a line like that ought not to be tolerated on a forum.
Are you against freedom of speech?

That's how much aiki some aikidoka can be - that's what was smouldering beneath the ashes of so much "harmony" and "gentle" martial arts.
See?
Nietzsche and Freud were amply right.
Not sure about Nietzsche, but Freud was a bit confused about women "privatas partes". How are they related to what is discussed here?

As for chokes being assumed as not clearly murderous and as not proven as being definitely a potential and clear threat and danger to a human being's life, trying to argue that grabbing a guy's neck is not extremely dangerous and potentially murderous (like any physician could explain to you with ample demonstration) is like trying to explain that shooting somebody in a leg cannot sever his tight artery and so it is safe
You are assuming what I've posted about chokes is based on assumptions.

It is like arguing that a gun is basically safe. But when you're at gunshots, you're into killing grounds just as much as you are when you grab a neck assuming that you won't break it.
It seems you can't tell the difference between choking and shooting. Sorry, I can't help you from here.

First comes the unconscious and unadmitted desire to kill, then come the explanations and the reasons to do it.
Do you have a degree in psychology?

Than in an aiki forum a line like the one saying that killing can be not only condoned but even encouraged as the right thing to do (it is, obviously enough, open to the subjective speculation of anyobody to decide, then, when those "right" motives came...), it is such a line so beyond any argument and any "aiki" related topics, that shouldn't even need to be discussed. Neither to be raised.
It's a startling line, highly dis-educative on a forum open to public inspection also by so many beginners.
Let me play online psychologist too: It seems you are reading too much in the sentence I posted. Projection much?

Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.
Because you say so?

Mary Eastland
01-16-2012, 01:50 PM
Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.

For you.

That is a little too black or white for me. Given the right set of circumstances we are all capable of any behavior know and unknown to man. I feel each person needs to think about such matters before they come up. I know what I believe and I think I know what I could live with. Yet, for me it is not etched in stone.

Chuck Clark
01-16-2012, 02:57 PM
Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.

Huge subject... and I'm lazy just now.

Life is not that simple.

DonMagee
01-16-2012, 03:21 PM
Huge subject... and I'm lazy just now.

Life is not that simple.

This totally reminds me of this.

http://comedians.jokes.com/daniel-tosh/videos/daniel-tosh---sounds-like-a-challenge

Rob Watson
01-16-2012, 05:20 PM
I don't like to practice chokes as it tends to aggravate my thyroid condition so I end up all jittery and other unpleasant stuff pretty quickly. I prefer to work on how not to get choked ... not exactly the same thing but close enough so as not to quibble.

Michael Hackett
01-16-2012, 07:23 PM
Mr. Italiano,
I disagree with a couple of your conclusions. First, I'm not clear on what you mean by "grabbing a neck". A rear naked choke certainly affects the neck, but isn't applied by "grabbing". That word suggests a brutal and unfocused, perhaps even wrenching movement to apply the restraint. I suppose that in a fight for life, the person applying the technique might resort to grabbing as I understand it. A trained individual wouldn't grab anything - it is a rather subtle application.

Secondly your proposition that taking a life is always wrong is far too black and white for me. I agree that taking a life or hurting someone unnecessarily is wrong, but the operative word is unnecessarily.

Lastly I disagree with your thesis that many of us harbor some murderous sub-conscious inclination or desire and conceal it with a conscious "peace, love and harmony" attitude. Perhaps some do. If you have any data to support that thought, please share it. Otherwise these are merely your opinions - opinions you are entitled to hold certainly, but they don't rise to the level of fact.

Chuck Clark
01-17-2012, 10:23 AM
Well written Michael. Opinions are free, but some carry more weight than others.

Regards,

RonRagusa
01-17-2012, 11:43 AM
Killing is never the right thing to do. Never.

Perhaps; but sometimes it's the necessary thing to do in order to survive, be it the right thing to do or not.

Ron

Walter Martindale
01-17-2012, 12:51 PM
"Grabbing a neck" brings forward the imagery of someone reaching out and clasping my neck with both hands. This, to me, is an invitation for broken elbows unless the person reaching out is VERY strong.

Properly done "shime waza" with or without clothing involved requires a lot more control of the person than reaching out to hold onto the neck. If you have that much control that you can actually do the shime-waza, then you should also have the control to recognize when the person is "out" (should be within a few seconds) and it should be safe to disengage and get some distance between you and the person - they SHOULD wake up unless you've gone way past the "reasonable force" situation and held the choke on for a minute or three...

Frankly, I hope I'm never in a situation where I need to use this outside of the dojo..
W

RuteMendes
01-23-2012, 02:50 PM
Perhaps the more advanced aikidokas pratice them, i don't know! Chokes are a dangerous attack, it can stop the oxygen from reaching the brain and even making someone faint :(

I don't know, really... But if you are so willing to pratice chokes, ask your sensei ^^ Perhaps he/she will teach you some techniques!

Look at this video I found : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfnWWiISIKc <---- Atemi from a front choke.

Peace :)

:ai: :ki: :do:

Belt_Up
01-24-2012, 11:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oapqNXXIRco&feature=youtu.be

Phil Van Treese
01-24-2012, 02:20 PM
I, for one, love chokes. It's a great equalizer and, if you are not used to chokes, you'll panic. When you panic, you lose your center, balance and your "ki". I just want "grabbing the neck" explained. I am quiter efficient in chokes and choking and I have yet to "grab a neck"---whatever that means. Like I have said in an earlier post, if you have such a great fear of chokes, you need to confront that fear by getting into a judo class or learn from a qualified instructor. My class does chokes all the time and no one has died, been choked/passed out and all the other garbage people think about. If I get attacked, and I have been, and I get behind someone, I will apply a choke in less than a heartbeat. Been there and done that and he didn't even die, have brain damage etc, etc, etc. Face your fears and find out what choking is all about instead of assuming that you know about chokes when you have never studied them.

DonMagee
01-25-2012, 02:33 PM
I like how you bring up panic because you are right, it's a big part of chokes.

Last night I was working out at the bjj club and newer white belt was trying his best to choke me from bad positions. While his chokes were restricting and effecting my ability (purely out of pure brute force on my neck), experience told me to just relax and use my superior position to apply leverage to the right spots and force him to let go. Thinking back to when I first started, I might have tapped out to a choke like that out of pure panic, or gave up my position in some attempt to "escape" the choke. It's not a major skill and nothing anyone who has done judo or bjj for a year shouldn't know already, but it is very vital.

I tried to explain that you should work for superior position then choke, but he gave me a look that said "but this works with the other white belts...".

jdostie
01-25-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm not a big fan of chokes, but recognize them as something to have in the toolbox.

Frankly, I could see where they could be used just like other types of pins for submission.

Though I have not practiced them in Aikido, I have practiced them elsewhere, and when we do practice them, I, and those I have practiced with tap out fairly quickly. It's pretty obvious when the choke is "on," whether it be a choke to the windpipe, or choking the bloodflow, most times it's less than a second that the actual choke is in place.

Still, I usually feel like we practice them for longer period of time than I prefer.

Also not a big fan of any technique that uses a gi as an implement to do a technique (unless it can easily translate to other clothing, or a version that does not involve using the gi is also showed - whether it be a choke or any other kind of technique. That's a practical consideration, however.

Michael Hackett
01-26-2012, 01:27 AM
I got choked four times this evening after class. The technique was applied, I tapped, and we did it again. Nothing is sore and I showed my partner four different escapes from the choke and how to apply it most efficiently. Valuable training period and fun as well.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-09-2013, 12:18 PM
I'm already aware of Feldenkrais' genius. If I get the book I'll give my unworthy (never choked anyone in a battlefield) opinion, but some of the pics in the cover make me cringe.

Update: I have the book. It's better than I expected and the clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrKLGOsDJro) is misleading.

Walter Martindale
01-09-2013, 12:34 PM
Update: I have the book. It's better than I expected and the clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrKLGOsDJro) is misleading.
(thread resurrection)
There are some good clips brought up after the above clip finishes - Kimura demonstrating...
This clip - the guy's holding a rifle and bayonet and just sitting there - anyone in his right mind would be trying to break the shime any way he could - stabbing behind himself with the bayonet, reaching back for the eyes, and so on - one assumes that if there's someone choking you when you're escorting him at bayonet point, he's going to render you either unconscious or dead, so - yeah, right... sit there...

Must look up this book.
Cheers,
W

Aikeway
01-09-2013, 11:49 PM
I think a useful categorization of shime waza could be 1. naked strangles and 2. those requiring the gi to assist in the technique. I don't see a huge amount of benefit to an aikido person in learning and practising strangles that require either your partner's gi or your own gi to assist in the technique. It is unlikely that in a self defence situation you will either have to defend against a gi strangle or be able to use a gi strangle against an aggressor (unless in extremely cold environments). However, I do see a huge benefit in practising the naked strangles from the perspective of being able to escape them or not be caught by them and also to use them if necessary.
These are the strangles most likely to be used against you when wearing normal clothes. There really aren't that many naked strangles to learn. There are the two versions of the rear naked strangle called hadaka jime, there is the version of hadaka jime done from the front known as guillotine, there are variations of kata gatame which use your partner's own arm across their neck, their is sankaku jime also known as triangle which uses your legs around the neck and a few more such as anaconda choke. Just training in the naked strangles would save a huge amount of time and would add significantly to one's defensive skills and add to the repertoire of useful techniques.

In fact, I would love to see a form of randori developed for aikido which is done on the ground starting from the kneeling position, and using predominately wrist lock techniques, some elbow techniques from aikido, aikido face-down pins and only naked strangles. Styles such as Tomiki which already do two types of standing randori would probably be more receptive to this than some other styles.

bkedelen
01-10-2013, 02:32 AM
I have done a *lot* of research into stand-up no-gi strangulations (choke means something else) specifically for use in Aikido waza and I have a lot of results which I will be happy to discuss at length if people are interested.

Ultimately the reason that stand-up shime waza is not trained is because it is not something that many Aikido people do well (with Greg Olson Sensei as a notable exception, his skill speaks for itself), is generally considered ineffective, and is arguably not part of our curriculum. The reason it is considered ineffective is because you need to be control uke's spine while applying any kind of standing static technique. If uke is in control of their spine and standing, they will literally walk away from your technique or use any number of very simple counters to lever your technique open and wriggle out.

Because of the need to manage the spine, arm-in strangulations (arm triangle, standing brabo, standing anaconda) are quite difficult to use successfully if they don't cause partner to quit instantly. They are much more reliable if the plan is to take them immediately to the ground because there is no way to trap the "in" arm and control partner's spine at the same time unless you transition to ne-waza. Every standing arm-in strangulation has a very simple, reliable counter (answering the phone, for instance).

No-arm strangulations (rear naked, bridged north-south, guillotine) are of much more utility but have their own problems. The standing rear naked, for instance, is almost impossible to impose on someone unless you are much taller than they are. Even then a two-arms-on-one defense is particularly effective when standing. Theoretically you could use the bridged north-south if you can get uke bending backwards with a kokyu nage, for instance, but lets not fool ourselves here, that the kind of thing other arts refer to as a "low-percentage" technique.

The real winner here is the guillotine. The standard problem with a standing guillotine is that it is usually a choke rather than a strangulation. Aikido people, including myself, are likely not interested in crushing their partner's windpipe in order to achieve our goals and therefore anyone interested in pursuing this kind of training will need to get very interested in the guillotine variations that result in strangulation rather than a choking, throat crush, or neck crank. The guillotine is also particularly vulnerable to a two-hands-on-one defense while standing, and any variation on it you develop ought to take that defense into consideration.

My research has lead me, in a rather roundabout and storied fashion, to a very effective guillotine variation called the arm-out brabo choke, or sometimes the ninja choke. The starting position is similar to the guillotine but with uke's head on the other side of your body. Done well, it goes on fast, starts from a position that might actually happen, produces nearly instantaneous results, allows nage to retain their Aikido tactical assets (upright posture, broad awareness, mobility), and results in a sweet slumber that everyone will agree later was really for the best. Done correctly your body forms a gallows upon which uke's bodyweight hangs them, and it is surprising and resistant to the standard defenses.

Anyone interested in my rather overwrought thoughts on the subject should grab me at a seminar or something and I will be happy to talk you to death about it.

Richard Stevens
01-10-2013, 10:05 AM
I think a useful categorization of shime waza could be 1. naked strangles and 2. those requiring the gi to assist in the technique. I don't see a huge amount of benefit to an aikido person in learning and practising strangles that require either your partner's gi or your own gi to assist in the technique. It is unlikely that in a self defence situation you will either have to defend against a gi strangle or be able to use a gi strangle against an aggressor (unless in extremely cold environments). However, I do see a huge benefit in practising the naked strangles from the perspective of being able to escape them or not be caught by them and also to use them if necessary.
These are the strangles most likely to be used against you when wearing normal clothes. There really aren't that many naked strangles to learn. There are the two versions of the rear naked strangle called hadaka jime, there is the version of hadaka jime done from the front known as guillotine, there are variations of kata gatame which use your partner's own arm across their neck, their is sankaku jime also known as triangle which uses your legs around the neck and a few more such as anaconda choke. Just training in the naked strangles would save a huge amount of time and would add significantly to one's defensive skills and add to the repertoire of useful techniques.

In fact, I would love to see a form of randori developed for aikido which is done on the ground starting from the kneeling position, and using predominately wrist lock techniques, some elbow techniques from aikido, aikido face-down pins and only naked strangles. Styles such as Tomiki which already do two types of standing randori would probably be more receptive to this than some other styles.

http://youtu.be/9WkmgQQhVSw

I come from a judo background and have been in a "self defense situation" where I successfully employed a standing sankaku jime variation and gripped my own shirt the same way I would have a gi. I have also been choked unconscious with the t-shirt I was wearing in my younger years.

One of the biggest benefits of including strokes and strangulations in training is simply getting used to getting choked (mentioned earlier in this thread). Having been choked hundreds of times I can remain very calm as the "haze" sets in.

Michael Douglas
01-10-2013, 11:20 AM
I have done a *lot* of research into stand-up no-gi strangulations ...

... arm-out brabo choke...
Thanks Benjamin, nice post.

I shall practice that thing sometime.

Aikeway
01-10-2013, 12:23 PM
http://youtu.be/9WkmgQQhVSw

I come from a judo background and have been in a "self defense situation" where I successfully employed a standing sankaku jime variation and gripped my own shirt the same way I would have a gi. I have also been choked unconscious with the t-shirt I was wearing in my younger years.

One of the biggest benefits of including strokes and strangulations in training is simply getting used to getting choked (mentioned earlier in this thread). Having been choked hundreds of times I can remain very calm as the "haze" sets in.

Perhaps I should say it is "less likely" rather than "unlikely" that a gi strangle would be used against you in a self-defence situation rather than a naked strangle -especially in view of the greater probability that it would more likely be an MMA guy rather than a high graded judo or BJJ guy that is likely to attack you. If only the naked strangles were included in aikido practice, an aikido person could get reasonably competent at defending against them and using them without sacrificing too much training time to strangles. Anyone who wanted to become competent at gi strangles as well could practice BJJ. This would also parallel what Tomiki Sensei did when he developed his style of aikido from standing judo techniques - throws that required grabbing of the gi were generally not incorporated in his system, whereas throws that required grabbing the naked arm or a soft atemi were included. His view was that if you wanted to practice the gi grabbing throws, then train in judo as well as his style of aikido.

Tore Eriksson
01-11-2013, 07:34 AM
Btw, Nishio-sensei did chokes/head locks now and then:

2m21s (http://youtu.be/1esqkCbke3A?t=2m21s)

Dennis Hooker
01-31-2013, 08:45 AM
I did chokes when younger but due to plack buildup in the arteries because of the things most of us eat ( or used to) the chance of some breaking loose is just to much a risk.