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niall
01-16-2012, 08:12 PM
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/6439327933_684574df77_z.jpg

connexion by rey
The power used in Aikido is referred to as kokyū ryoku.

Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei

This force accumulated in the seika tanden fills every part of the body, like water flowing out that never stops. This force extends from a calm, serene and relaxed body and mind and can be used whenever necessary in any direction. This force is called kokyū ryoku.

Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei

An aikido technique done without kokyū ryoku is not an aikido technique. It's like champagne without sparkle or flat beer.

Nobuyoshi Tamura SenseiHere we are on a site called AikiWeb. The site for information and discussion about aikido. Aiki plus web.

Aiki. What is it, this aiki? It's a word with an elusive meaning. If it is a word. Japanese people would not know it. It's not in Japanese dictionaries except as a component of aikido or aikijutsu or aikijujutsu. I checked a thirteen volume dictionary of nearly twenty thousand pages and it is not listed. I have lived in Japan and done aikido for many years and I have almost never heard anyone say aiki. I have very occasionally heard aiki used as shorthand for aikido or Daito Ryu or aiki arts in general. I have never heard the word aiki used in aikido to mean internal power.

So who uses the term aiki to mean internal power? Not O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of aikido. This is a doka - an instructive poem - by O Sensei.
大宇宙
合気の道は
もろ人の
光となりて
世をば開かん

dai uchū
aiki no michi wa
morobito no
hikari to narite
yo oba hirakan

the great universal
path of aiki
illuminates
all people
opening the world (to the truth)
The translation is by John Stevens from The Essence of Aikido. By the way this is an excellent translation. It correctly catches the meaning. It is clear and understandable. And it can stand on its own as a doka in English.

We can see that the meaning of aiki in this doka is a universal one. The path of aiki clearly means the path of aikido. It is not a limited or technical meaning. There is no possible way that it could mean the path of internal power that illuminates all people opening the world...'

O Sensei used aiki in this universal sense here so it is hardly conceivable that he used it in a different sense in his other writings. So when I read the word aiki by O Sensei I take it to mean aikido.

If we break the word into its component parts it gets even more unlikely that it can mean internal power. Ai 合 あい means meet or fit or join. Awase and awaseru - blending or uniting - are written with the same Japanese character.

Ki 気 きmeans energy or spirit or life force or intention.

So aiki can mean joining of energy or spirit. Or energy or spirit becoming one. That's the real meaning of aiki. It's not what people who don't do aikido want it to mean. It is not possible to construe a meaning of internal power from these kanji.

Finally I want to get back to internal power, the real power of all martial arts. In aikido the effortless power developed by great budoka is called kokyū ryoku. Breath power. That is what O Sensei called it. I know because that's what he called it when he told my first aikido teacher Kinjo Asoh Sensei (7 dan) that he had to get kokyū ryoku by all means. And kokyū ryoku are the words my second teacher Sadateru Arikawa Sensei (9 dan) used when he talked about internal power. Kokyū ryoku is what Sunadomari Sensei (9 dan, founder of Manseikan Aikido) and Tamura Sensei (8 dan) called it. And kokyū ryoku is what I call it too.

Niall

my blog on aikiweb (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/moon-in-the-water-19051/)

niall matthews 2011

Niall Matthews lives with his family in Japan. He teaches aikibudo and community self-defence courses and has taught budo for twenty-five years. He was the senior deshi of Kinjo Asoh Sensei, 7 dan Aikikai. He was the exclusive uke of Sadateru Arikawa Sensei, 9 dan Aikikai, at the hombu dojo in Tokyo for thirteen years until Arikawa Sensei's death in 2003. He has trained in several other martial arts to complement his aikido training, including judo (he has 4 dan from the Kodokan in Tokyo), kenjutsu (for about ten years) and karate (for about three years). He originally went to Japan as a staff member of the EU almost thirty years ago. He received 5 dan from Arikawa Sensei in 1995. This 5 dan is the last aikido dan he will receive in his life. His dojo is called Aikibudo Kokkijuku 合気武道克輝塾. Arikawa Sensei personally gave him the character for ki in kokki. It is the same character as teru in Sadateru - not the normal spelling of kokki 克己. It means you make your life shining and clear yourself.

DH
01-17-2012, 08:22 AM
Ueshiba Morihei continuously spoke of well known and recognized principles of internal power (among which is breath power) to make aiki. In one of his passages he states:
"In this thing called Aiki, first describe (draw) a circle. Drawing a circle is, in other words, opposing powers. With touching with even one finger your opponent will be sent flying."
I am working on a project of my own exploring what he actually said and the relation of what he said to well established internal training in Daito ryu Koryu, India and China.

Ueshiba's continuos discussion of in yo; both explicitly and metaphorically, and his use of identical and previously documented language define him as an internal strength advocate. He directly quotes from Chinese sources. Any attempts to make his power unique and original will end up like the myth making undertaken by the aikikai, it will ultimately fail. The things he quoted are too well known and easily recognized by educated budo-ka. Trying to argue them away or make them go away or redefine it so people in the art can say what ever they want it to mean will simply not survive diligent scrutiny.

While I understand the tendency to vet opinions and views through rank and affiliation, I remain unmoved, figuratively and literally, by how long someone has been in an art as any indicator of his skill and real understanding. There is no consistency I have found to lend that argument credibility. Shodan to 9th dan- your understanding is in your own hand, not in where you went or who you know. While I remain mindful that aikido is more than internal strength and aiki, I am also aware that without internal strength and aiki and what that entails, people are simply not doing Aikido, the way of aiki. They are doing jujutsu. Which apparently was O sensei's view as well. He was clear in stating that people cannot do what he does because they do not understand in yo, he has in many places defined his understanding of in yo ho it was the union of opposites.... in yourself.
Aiki in me/ before aiki between thee and me.
Dan

graham christian
01-17-2012, 08:51 AM
Hi Niall.
100% Agree.

When it comes to what or how often O'Sensei said this or that I find there is only one continuous theme: Universal.

There is universal love, there is the spirit of loving protection, there is Ki (once again universal) There is God and spirit. All to do with Aiki, Aikido,universal.

Then we have people, used only to being an individual, separate, body and mind. Oblivious to the workings of the aiki of the universe or any connection to it.

Thus it is the universal principles that can be felt in the body. Thus the joke is it is the true external, universal that is the true source and the internal is the effect. When harmonized with then internal and external become one in harmony.

My 2 cents.

Peace and love. G.

chillzATL
01-17-2012, 09:12 AM
What about internal power makes it not universal? When I read that doka, I see an example of him discussing what aiki is, ultimately. It does not touch on the process of getting it though. kokyu ryoku isn't aiki, but IMO it's certainly one of the things you would need to create aiki and based on your quotes it seems like he stressed that to his students. Almost as if saying doing these techniques with kokyu ryoku is what makes aiki. I recall hearing this somewhere else before too.... no kokyu, no aikido.

So if aiki needs kokyu ryoku, as your post suggests, how do you create kokyu ryoku if not internal?

NagaBaba
01-17-2012, 11:40 AM
Hi Niall,
You cut nicely all this mumba bumba aiki gibberish.
Thanks.

DH
01-17-2012, 12:59 PM
So if aiki needs kokyu ryoku, as your post suggests, how do you create kokyu ryoku if not internal?
You don't. Good point.
But neither is breath power all there is to internal...or aiki....as you also know.

Hmmm... with all the interest/ angst being displayed over this topic you would think at this juncture there would be a more detached and analytical review of both the material and the deliverable skills that are being displayed world over that continue to leave the detractors standing there with blank looks on their faces.

So far, people have confirmed;
a. They don't know what Ueshiba was talking about in regards to in yo ho, internal training, and aiki.They've never even heard of many of the terms or concepts before.
b. They don't know the terms are ages old, documented and were known and used to produce power in warriors who trained them.
c. They can't display any serious amount of power themselves or an ability to explain how to go about it consistent with Ueshiba's own commentary and quotations.

Were there to be a debate over substance then both parties should at least be capable of bringing a positive understanding of all three; a. b. and c. to the table. Then some semblance of equal level in understanding and discussing these things and demonstrating them with clarity and consistency from translation, to description and definitions, to historical context, to teaching models, and practical use and then demonstrations of some serious deliverable power should ensue.
None of the detractors have managed to deliver a consistent message in person. It really hasn't left much to discuss or debate. The differecnes in understanding were clear. So thankfully, it continues to bring people together instead of dividing them-just like he thought it would.

I don't think it is productive to redefine some pretty sophisticated material -recognized the world over- and also to call it mumbo jumbo because people don't understand it. It is most likely a worthy consideration since the founder of your art;
Practiced it
Studied it
Read about it
And many of the doka you think are his that are quoted.....are internal Chinese martial art sayings!
Cheers
Dan

phitruong
01-17-2012, 01:23 PM
And many of the doka you think are his that are quoted.....are internal Chinese martial art sayings!
Cheers
Dan

so what you are saying that these stuffs were Made in China? are there anything that not made in China these days? this morning when i did my self-examination in the shower, my wife asked, "what are you doing?" i said i was doing some internal gigong to increase my fajing and want to make sure nothing Made in China shown up unexpected as i got older. she said she was wondering about the quality of the material. :D

hmmm wonder if "mumbo jumbo" also Made in China.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-17-2012, 01:38 PM
hmmm wonder if "mumbo jumbo" also Made in China.

But invented, like everything, in Korea.

Marc Abrams
01-17-2012, 01:41 PM
so what you are saying that these stuffs were Made in China? are there anything that not made in China these days? this morning when i did my self-examination in the shower, my wife asked, "what are you doing?" i said i was doing some internal gigong to increase my fajing and want to make sure nothing Made in China shown up unexpected as i got older. she said she was wondering about the quality of the material. :D

hmmm wonder if "mumbo jumbo" also Made in China.

Phil:

Just be careful to test for lead in your thing ;)

Marc Abrams

Chris Li
01-17-2012, 03:57 PM
We can see that the meaning of aiki in this doka is a universal one. The path of aiki clearly means the path of aikido. It is not a limited or technical meaning. There is no possible way that it could mean �the path of internal power that illuminates all people opening the world...'

O Sensei used aiki in this universal sense here so it is hardly conceivable that he used it in a different sense in his other writings. So when I read the word aiki by O Sensei I take it to mean aikido.

The issue with aiki and internal power is actually a little more complex, but without getting into that right now - it's entirely conceivable. "Aiki" has a specific technical meaning, one that predates Ueshiba, and one that he was trained in - I would think it even more inconceivable that he'd take that word and slap it as a label on an entirely different concept.

On the other hand, it's clear that he's talking about a more expanded definition of "Aiki". Expanded meaning "based upon" rather than "differentiated from". It's pretty clear from things like Take Musu Aiki that he linked his technical training in "Aiki" into a more spiritual definition. But take away the technical process and you break the system - you may have something good, but it won't be the same as what he was doing.

If we break the word into its component parts it gets even more unlikely that it can mean internal power. Ai 合 あい means meet or fit or join. Awase and awaseru - blending or uniting - are written with the same Japanese character.

Ki 気 きmeans energy or spirit or life force or intention.

So aiki can mean joining of energy or spirit. Or energy or spirit becoming one. That's the real meaning of aiki. It's not what people who don't do aikido want it to mean. It is not possible to construe a meaning of internal power from these kanji.

But are we actually worshiping a Roman god when we practice "martial arts"? It can get tricky when breaking down things into their parts - English idiom, for example, is by definition something that has a different meaning from the sum of its parts.

As above, "Aiki" has a meaning which pre-dates Ueshiba, one in which he was trained, and one which he taught - over a span of more than twenty years.

Finally I want to get back to internal power, the real power of all martial arts. In aikido the effortless power developed by great budoka is called kokyū ryoku. Breath power.

"合気は息の妙用なり" - "Aiki is the mysterious working of the breath." Morihei Ueshiba

Best,

Chris

graham christian
01-17-2012, 10:15 PM
Hi Niall.
Just to add, when it comes to truth then we are talking universal. Universal truths or principles obviously apply to everything.

Aiki thus is about those universal harmonious workings of the universe from the atom and electrons etc to the stars and planets and to mother nature itself.

When you become aware of a truth as such you see it in operation both internally and externally, the same truth. You see it in operation in nature, in your own body, in life itself, in the wall in front of you, Aiki.

Of course others who have gone before have touched upon or realized these universal truths and even said so and demonstrated as much no doubt. But who can hear? Who listens? Most retranslate it as a selfish thing and thus it gets called from internal to secret power and no doubt lots of labels.

Seen in this light we can understand the use of internal being used historically for in the history of warlike peoples those families, groups, clans, or sects found how to use a few principles which made them 'superior' and thus kept it internal and secret. Thus mystifying it.

Due to the unenlightened human condition I'm afraid. The need to feel superior, to win over, to out do,
to dominate and control. To handle their own fear.

As for kokyu ryoku and breathing? Universally what is this? It's not some secret. Internal folks call this aiki like it's something special and thus miss the beauty of the universe. It's almost back to front calling this aspect aiki and thus a mix up of terminologies.

The universal principles of breathing are not to do with air entering the lungs for that is merely an effect of such a principle, one effect only. It is all part and parcel of universal Aiki but of itself is a major principle.

It is yin and yang, that's what the whole subject of breathing and breath is all about. The basic principles of inflow and outflow. It's not mysterious internal aiki for it is in operation in every living and non living thing, in every atom and every universe, in every action and every stillness.

To clear some more mystery I would say the understanding of such from a self centred view, a misinformed view, a view based on defeating opponents, would be it is about the theory of opposites.

Alas, in truth it is not. It is the theory of complimentary opposites. That is the concept to come to terms with and understand. It is breathing and clearing. Taking in and expanding out. Harmony.

So when a man demonstrates such things and says he is merely a vessel for the universal and is not trying to defeat or outwit or go against in any way what do others see? They see a man defeating others, superior, with special 'secret' powers he's not teaching. Thus they search for hidden clues.

Such a man would see the history and misuse of such principles and remove himself from such aims as it had been previously used for. And thus would come into being a new art that may look similar but is totally different as it is not all about self, it is universal.

Breath with your body, breath with your mind, breath with your spirit, breath with your soul and breath with your heart. Thus breathing with Ki takes on a new dimention for it is infinite and universal.

End of soapbox.

Regards.G.

Ellis Amdur
01-18-2012, 12:26 AM
Note Shishida Fumiaki's article, "Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s (http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=855001)."

At a number of points in his analysis of Takeshita Isamu's descriptions of Ueshiba's teaching in the early 1930's:

The expression “Kokyu wo ire” means “show sprit” use in 37 passages in the 147 techniques. Based on examination of these 37 passages, this expression refers to the usage of the hand blade(s) in order to break balance, and it is the same as the skill of aiki, which is, in Daito-ryu, the skill of breaking an opponent’s balance in a flash by straining hand(s).

Ueshiba’s martial art emphasizes on throwing techniques. Once we compare his skill in around 1930 with the features of Daito-ryu.
(2) Ueshiba’s counter techniques against judo have a unique quality in that Ueshiba always tried to fight before the grasping of body or clothes.
(3) Ueshiba was under influence Daito-ryu from his skill “kokyu-wo-ire,” which was almost the same as the skill referred to as aiki in Daito-ryu.

At this period, Ueshiba was teaching Daito-ryu. In fact, Takeshita refers to 'Dai-ikkajo, 166 techniques in all." Yet he was already using the term "kokyu." Is it possible that this is merely a change of "brand," concurrent with Ueshiba's first attempts to separate himself from Takeda Sokaku, as described here (]https://sites.google.com/site/fshishidalab/kenkyuu-no-hiroba/kagakukenkyuuhitouseikahoukokushouroku).

To be sure, Ueshiba had his own interpretations, his own nuances - but was he really doing something different from "aiki," in the Daito-ryu sense?

Two BTW's:
1. That said, I do not agree with the general thrust of Shishida's article, as there is no evidence that Ueshiba ever studied Kito-ryu as a child. This was a mistake on the part of Ueshiba Kisshomaru, that got perpetuated. He actually had a very brief period of study/contact with Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.
2. The term aiki is used in the Toda-ha Buko-ryu mokuroku. 鏁鎌合気之事 Kusarigama Aiki no Koto. The oldest record we have is from approximately 1860, with the 14th generation headmaster's mokuroku. We may have used the term earlier, but there are no remaining records from an earlier period.
Best
Ellis Amdur

鏁鎌合気之事 Kusarigama Aiki no Koto

Ernesto Lemke
01-18-2012, 01:41 AM
Hi Ellis, the link you provided to the account of Takeda doesn't seem to work.

Ellis Amdur
01-18-2012, 01:46 AM
Sorry - How about THIS (https://sites.google.com/site/fshishidalab/kenkyuu-no-hiroba/kagakukenkyuuhitouseikahoukokushouroku)? Scroll down for the English.

Ernesto Lemke
01-18-2012, 02:12 AM
Got it, thanks.
PS
Just send your offer to involved parties, should expect a reply asap.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-18-2012, 06:24 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299540&postcount=27

chillzATL
01-18-2012, 07:15 AM
Hi Ellis, the link you provided to the account of Takeda doesn't seem to work.

The link does not work in IE, but seems fine in firefox.

Diana Frese
01-18-2012, 07:54 AM
Hi Niall, I always count on learning something inspirational from you, and respect your knowledge of Japanese language, culture and your years of study of Aikido. I remember Tamura Sensei and Arikawa Sensei were two of Yamada Sensei's favorite senpais. Yamada Sensei rarely spoke of philosophy or concepts, at least in my hearing, and when asked why, he said "I'm not O Sensei" But I definitely heard that he said "kokyu ryoku" many years ago.

DH
01-18-2012, 09:09 AM
At this period, Ueshiba was teaching Daito-ryu. In fact, Takeshita refers to 'Dai-ikkajo, 166 techniques in all." Yet he was already using the term "kokyu." Is it possible that this is merely a change of "brand," concurrent with Ueshiba's first attempts to separate himself from Takeda Sokaku, as described

Best
Ellis Amdur

Kokyu; also referred to as breath power, was discussed by Tokimune, Kodo, and Sagawa; who publicly said he had no use for it (but brought it up anyway) yet privately trained it, Hisa, Okomoto, etc. So Kokyu was in DR, is in DR and is still taught by certain teachers to the present day.

He was also discussing many other principles of DR in the 30's as well, I just never considered his discussion of them as a separation to his own art. He was simply discussing what he was taught. I think we have to keep firmly in mind that our discovery of things he may have said here or there as the first time we saw it, has absolutely no relevance as to when he might have said it for the first time.

To be sure, Ueshiba had his own interpretations, his own nuances - but was he really doing something different from "aiki," in the Daito-ryu sense?
Well, we both know our views on this topic, so to the broader readership:
Did he ever do anything different from "aiki" in the Daito ryu sense? I have never seen it.
To me the vast majority of discussions on the internet, interviews and in books, revolve around the various external expression of aiki and not what is actually going on. This is largely presented as an observation by those who don't understand what is going on or how it is done. I understand these issues are difficult and seem challenging and an afront to those in the arts. To others they are simply dimissed. Aiki, for them must be defined by rank and time-in. IME, this leads to observations and opinions that are flawed at a foundational level and leads to further confusion. Why? Because many of the seniors opinions on aiki in the aiki arts....are patently worthless.
In any event, since we are not assigning validation of opinon by actual ability, we are in a great many areas, reducing this once profound work -once held in the hands of men who were truly capable- down to a working understanding for Budo-ka who upon examination, feel no different than any other average Joe martial artist out there.

Couple of points on the article
If the use of hand blades as straining of hands was all there is to it I would suggest the following:
* Either Takashita and friends and all those judoka were some truly ignorant martial artists to be so impressed by it.
* Or there is profound body skills behind the art that impressed people on contact and this fellow had no idea what he was observing and triyng to copy. If he did, the comment would not have been offered.

Why was it said?
I have read reviews of what was going on -by students of the same teacher- many times senior students. It is often striking to see how they differ. I attribute it more to the understanding -or lack thereof- of the student rather than the teacher teaching different things.


Dan

hughrbeyer
01-18-2012, 08:58 PM
Couple of points on the article
If the use of hand blades as straining of hands was all there is to it I would suggest the following:
* Either Takashita and friends and all those judoka were some truly ignorant martial artists to be so impressed by it.
* Or there is profound body skills behind the art that impressed people on contact and this fellow had no idea what he was observing and triyng to copy. If he did, the comment would not have been offered.

Glad you brought that up--I figured somebody didn't get it and I was hoping it wasn't me.

Going back to the 1935 Asahi News video, I could see that maybe "straining hands" was the most visible external indication of what O-Sensei was doing. Somewhat like mistaking the blown leaf for the storm, tho.

DH
01-19-2012, 09:22 AM
Hi Hugh
We can also consider this
Ueshiba's martial art emphasizes on throwing techniques. Once we compare his skill in around 1930 with the features of Daito-ryu.
(2) Ueshiba's counter techniques against judo have a unique quality in that Ueshiba always tried to fight before the grasping of body or clothes.
This is simply erroneous and once again speaks to the lack of understanding of interviewer and interviewees.
You could stop and ask just about anyone well taught in the Kodokai, Roppokai or Takumakai what they are supposed to do before being grabbed and you will get the same answer. They are supposed to already be moving. It is one of many long standing principles in Daito ryu. It is one thing to yak on a board, quite another to meet teachers and students in Daito ryu from all over the world, who do not know or have ever trained with each other- and hear them say the same things to you.
So when we read certain observations and opinions about things and Ueshiba doing some stock out of the box (well known in Daito ryu) principles as yet again his unique skill...well...cough...it doesn't go over the same way in different circles. I am sure he had unique skills, even more unique to outside observers who didn't have clue what he was doing, but this-among many other erroneous observations- was just not among them.

Peoples rank and closeness to Ueshiba really doesn't quite matter as much as you'd initially believe. While this sounds dramatic or dismissive, all you need due is put your hands on a host of Shihan and 4-6th dans and ask yourselves if all of their opinions on budo are of equal worth either? In my opinion they are not.
Dan

graham christian
01-19-2012, 07:37 PM
Sounds pre Aikido to me.

'When he moves I am already standing behind him' ......Aikido.

'They come, I meet, I turn they follow'..........Aikido.

'There is no opponent'......Aikido

Divine heavenly universal workings.....Aiki

The breath of life ......Kokyu.

Together.....Aikido.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
01-19-2012, 07:54 PM
Sounds pre Aikido to me.

'When he moves I am already standing behind him' ......Aikido.

'They come, I meet, I turn they follow'..........Aikido.

'There is no opponent'......Aikido

Divine heavenly universal workings.....Aiki

The breath of life ......Kokyu.

Together.....Aikido.

Regards.G.

Hmm, I think that all of those things appeared in Doka written by Ueshiba while he was still issuing Daito-ryu certificates. What is your basis for stating that they are "pre-Aikido".

Best,

Chris

graham christian
01-19-2012, 09:39 PM
Hmm, I think that all of those things appeared in Doka written by Ueshiba while he was still issuing Daito-ryu certificates. What is your basis for stating that they are "pre-Aikido".

Best,

Chris

Some things he may have said pre Aikido and as Aikido both. After the Daito Ryu period, after even the Aikibudo period, In The Aikido period.....Ahh, if he says it in this period, whether said before or not, he is talking Aikido.

Thus using things said 'earlier' which he never said later is as foolhardy as thinking what you used to believe is relevant to your current view.

'True Budo is love.' An Aikido statement. Anything contradictory or any actions contradictory to that from before in his life are therefore irrelevant.

As far as I'm concerned they can only be used by those who try to undermine Aikido, who don't yet fully grasp what Aikido is, or are just neutral, historians.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
01-19-2012, 10:07 PM
Some things he may have said pre Aikido and as Aikido both. After the Daito Ryu period, after even the Aikibudo period, In The Aikido period.....Ahh, if he says it in this period, whether said before or not, he is talking Aikido.

Thus using things said 'earlier' which he never said later is as foolhardy as thinking what you used to believe is relevant to your current view.

'True Budo is love.' An Aikido statement. Anything contradictory or any actions contradictory to that from before in his life are therefore irrelevant.

As far as I'm concerned they can only be used by those who try to undermine Aikido, who don't yet fully grasp what Aikido is, or are just neutral, historians.

Regards.G.

Except for the political stuff (about the emperor, for example), virtually all of the things that Ueshiba said pre-war he also said post-war. Which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

'True Budo is love.' may be an Aikido statement, but it dates from 1925 - are you saying that everything after 1925 is relevant?

Best,

Chris

graham christian
01-20-2012, 06:58 AM
Except for the political stuff (about the emperor, for example), virtually all of the things that Ueshiba said pre-war he also said post-war. Which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

'True Budo is love.' may be an Aikido statement, but it dates from 1925 - are you saying that everything after 1925 is relevant?

Best,

Chris

I doubt that comes from 1925 but I know he said it after the war.

It is well known that after the war he had changed. Well known, well discussed. Therefore his views were different so how can you think he said the same things? Impossible.

I would even guess that when he got angry and said 'that's not my Aikido' he was frustrated with those still doing it as if it was daito ryu.

Regards.G.

chillzATL
01-20-2012, 07:12 AM
I would even guess that when he got angry and said 'that's not my Aikido' he was frustrated with those still doing it as if it was daito ryu.

Regards.G.

except according to you he wasn't teaching Daito-ryu by that point and had "changed", well before actually. So how would he be angry at people for doing something he wasn't teaching, wasn't talking about and something that wasn't really discussed within his organization at that time?

graham christian
01-20-2012, 07:50 AM
except according to you he wasn't teaching Daito-ryu by that point and had "changed", well before actually. So how would he be angry at people for doing something he wasn't teaching, wasn't talking about and something that wasn't really discussed within his organization at that time?

Quite simple really. See it all the time. People reverting to what they used to do or even thinking, as many still do now, that he must be doing those secret internal daito ryu stuff.

Still in the old time samurai mindset.

Regards.G.

David Yap
01-20-2012, 09:42 AM
Quite simple really. See it all the time. People reverting to what they used to do or even thinking, as many still do now, that he must be doing those secret internal daito ryu stuff.

Still in the old time samurai mindset.

Regards.G.

And, I wonder why he promoted Gozo Shioda to 9th Dan for not doing "his" aikido. Similarly, Rinjiro Shirata, Minoru Mochizuki and other pre-war students were not doing "his" aikido....that's a bit too far fetch AFAIK.

chillzATL
01-20-2012, 10:29 AM
And, I wonder why he promoted Gozo Shioda to 9th Dan for not doing "his" aikido. Similarly, Rinjiro Shirata, Minoru Mochizuki and other pre-war students were not doing "his" aikido....that's a bit too far fetch AFAIK.

THere seems to be an ever shifting timeline from when Ueshiba and his aiki changed from the hard and godless Daito-ryu to the soft and loving Ai-ki-do we know today. Good luck nailing that one down. :)

graham christian
01-20-2012, 11:48 AM
And, I wonder why he promoted Gozo Shioda to 9th Dan for not doing "his" aikido. Similarly, Rinjiro Shirata, Minoru Mochizuki and other pre-war students were not doing "his" aikido....that's a bit too far fetch AFAIK.

Nothing to do with pre war, nothing to do with one incident either. No connection.

Regards.G

graham christian
01-20-2012, 11:50 AM
THere seems to be an ever shifting timeline from when Ueshiba and his aiki changed from the hard and godless Daito-ryu to the soft and loving Ai-ki-do we know today. Good luck nailing that one down. :)

It's not hard, really. After the war. Simple.

Regards G.

graham christian
01-20-2012, 12:27 PM
This force accumulated in the seika tanden fills every part of the body, like water flowing out that never stops. This force extends from a calm, serene and relaxed body and mind and can be used whenever necessary in any direction. This force is called kokyū ryoku.

Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei

From the o/p....

Fills every part of the body, like water flowing that never stops. From seika tanden.

From a calm, serene, relaxed body and mind.

You can't find this through intellect. You can't find this through logic. It's not dependent on who said what and when.

Through spirit, yes. I personally call this Hara, for both location and resultant conditions and flow.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
01-21-2012, 04:06 PM
I doubt that comes from 1925 but I know he said it after the war.

It is well known that after the war he had changed. Well known, well discussed. Therefore his views were different so how can you think he said the same things? Impossible.



I know that he said it before the war - it's a matter of public record. I can think that he said the same things because I can read...

Anyway, my previous question remains - which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

Best,

Chris

graham christian
01-21-2012, 04:14 PM
I know that he said it before the war - it's a matter of public record. I can think that he said the same things because I can read...

Anyway, my previous question remains - which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

Best,

Chris

You're the historian, you tell me. As I said, those things said after the war are Aikido, those which contradict these from earlier are not.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
01-21-2012, 04:22 PM
You're the historian, you tell me. As I said, those things said after the war are Aikido, those which contradict these from earlier are not.

Regards.G.

You want me to tell you what you are saying is irrelevant? I don't think so.

Since you have such a clear idea what those things are it should be easy for you to state them.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
01-21-2012, 04:33 PM
You want me to tell you what you are saying is irrelevant? I don't think so.

Since you have such a clear idea what those things are it should be easy for you to state them.

Best,

Chris

Too many. It would take all night and all of tomorrow.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
01-21-2012, 04:36 PM
Too many. It would take all night and all of tomorrow.

Regards.G.

Pick the top three and cite where he said them pre-war.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
01-21-2012, 04:57 PM
Pick the top three and cite where he said them pre-war.

Best,

Chris

I don't store dates and times and places, it's a waste of time. I leave that to intellectuals to intellectualize about.

Regards.G

Chris Li
01-21-2012, 05:09 PM
I don't store dates and times and places, it's a waste of time. I leave that to intellectuals to intellectualize about.

Regards.G

So you don't know what he said or when he said it - just that you disagree with whatever it was you can't remember?

Best,

Chris

graham christian
01-21-2012, 05:25 PM
So you don't know what he said or when he said it - just that you disagree with whatever it was you can't remember?

Best,

Chris

I know Aikido. I know lots of what he said as Aikido. Knowing is not data.

When you know you don't have to remember.

I feel sorry for all those who carry all that data around in their heads. Cups still full.

Regards.G.

DH
01-21-2012, 05:56 PM
So Graham, Let me see if I got this right.
You're saying
A guy from Japan said stuff you can't read that was translated by a guy who admits he didn't understand many things the Japanese guy said and was joined by a son who fabricated a history that you like.
So now you know things that you have heard and read that may or may not have ever even been actually said by the Japanese guy whom you can't read, but after all that..... you know what you know but you don't know from where or when you know only that you know....something that you can't define.

Now you are telling Chris that because he can read what the Japanese guy actually said and when he said it and can memorize and research it, define it, and explain it, and tell you and has also translated for the Japanese guy's hiers...that it is he who's cup is full and he can't learn?
I think that is a pretty fair review of the exchange. I'm lost. I'm laughing..but I'm lost
Dan

graham christian
01-21-2012, 07:06 PM
So Graham, Let me see if I got this right.
You're saying
A guy from Japan said stuff you can't read that was translated by a guy who admits he didn't understand many things the Japanese guy said and was joined by a son who fabricated a history that you like.
So now you know things that you have heard and read that may or may not have ever even been actually said by the Japanese guy whom you can't read, but after all that..... you know what you know but you don't know from where or when you know only that you know....something that you can't define.

Now you are telling Chris that because he can read what the Japanese guy actually said and when he said it and can memorize and research it, define it, and explain it, and tell you and has also translated for the Japanese guy's hiers...that it is he who's cup is full and he can't learn?
I think that is a pretty fair review of the exchange. I'm lost. I'm laughing..but I'm lost
Dan

That's quite a story. No wonder you're laughing. Very creative, mystical, complicated, oh and nice additions too.

Let me try.....

Once upon a time there was a guy who started a new art called Aikido. He called it 'the true martial art based on universal truth' He said it cannot be anything but a martial art of love. He said many universal things and principles including the true state of Aikido is love and harmony.

Being a very spiritual man and seeing spiritually how the principles of love, ki, life, goodness, non resistance, non-control etc work in the universe and lie and living and being enlightened and pointing out it's not to do with logic and intellect he proceeded to share his new spiritual, compassionate art.

If you want to learn only physical Aikido, to do with just the body, he advised you take up nutrition.
If you want to learn mental Aikido he advised zen or any that rids you of the need for data and thinking and especially the past. To empty your cup. Now if you want to learn Spiritual Aikido he said you must learn what he says now and forget all that went before.

Alas the masses as usual hung on to the past, filled their minds with data and reverted back to past Ryu.

He smiled for he knew they had to go through such processes but meanwhile smiled also as he saw some bright stars emerging in the universe, some who understood, some seeds had taken root. He was happy.

And from Kokyu Ryoku to the heavens and earth Aikido spread.

Now that's a better story.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
01-21-2012, 07:17 PM
I know Aikido. I know lots of what he said as Aikido. Knowing is not data.

When you know you don't have to remember.

I feel sorry for all those who carry all that data around in their heads. Cups still full.

Regards.G.

Sounds dangerous to me: Knowledge obfuscates as well as reveals; hence the need to constantly question, both the world around you and yourself. While data doesn't equate to knowledge, it must match up or one of the two is false. Data is fact. Fact is truth. Truth is reality. Not all data are accurate, but insofaras they are, they determine the validity of what one knows.

graham christian
01-22-2012, 03:44 AM
Sounds dangerous to me: Knowledge obfuscates as well as reveals; hence the need to constantly question, both the world around you and yourself. While data doesn't equate to knowledge, it must match up or one of the two is false. Data is fact. Fact is truth. Truth is reality. Not all data are accurate, but insofaras they are, they determine the validity of what one knows.

Hi Matthew.

Data is a reality. Data put together is knowledge. A bunch of related facts. None of this is truth however.

There's a body of knowledge for every subject you care to look into, you could gather, gather, gather, like a great computer and be called 'intelligent'

That just about covers it. Notice I haven't mentioned understanding, or knowing. They are spiritual matters related to truth.

Different level.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
01-22-2012, 04:07 AM
So Graham, Let me see if I got this right.
You're saying
A guy from Japan said stuff you can't read that was translated by a guy who admits he didn't understand many things the Japanese guy said and was joined by a son who fabricated a history that you like.
So now you know things that you have heard and read that may or may not have ever even been actually said by the Japanese guy whom you can't read, but after all that..... you know what you know but you don't know from where or when you know only that you know....something that you can't define.

Now you are telling Chris that because he can read what the Japanese guy actually said and when he said it and can memorize and research it, define it, and explain it, and tell you and has also translated for the Japanese guy's hiers...that it is he who's cup is full and he can't learn?
I think that is a pretty fair review of the exchange. I'm lost. I'm laughing..but I'm lost
Dan

Dan, I thought that Graham's last post pretty much said it all - there's nothing I can add to that. :D

Writing from Narita Airport - maybe I'll be warm soon...

Best,

Chris

Demetrio Cereijo
01-22-2012, 08:37 AM
Different level.

Regards.G.

Level 42?

graham christian
01-22-2012, 08:38 AM
Level 42?

Nah, there's only 36 chambers.

David Yap
01-22-2012, 09:26 AM
Dan, I thought that Graham's last post pretty much said it all - there's nothing I can add to that. :D

Writing from Narita Airport - maybe I'll be warm soon...

Best,

Chris

I am not Dan. I think so too. Basically there is nothing much you can add to someone who has suggested that he has reached satori. :D

Enjoy your trip home.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-22-2012, 10:27 AM
I think he's more into Nirvana... but still I maintain Level 42 were better.

mathewjgano
01-22-2012, 10:33 AM
Hi Matthew.

Data is a reality. Data put together is knowledge. A bunch of related facts. None of this is truth however.

There's a body of knowledge for every subject you care to look into, you could gather, gather, gather, like a great computer and be called 'intelligent'

That just about covers it. Notice I haven't mentioned understanding, or knowing. They are spiritual matters related to truth.

Different level.

Regards.G.

Hi Graham,
Semantics I suppose, but refreshing myself on the definition of truth I came up with "conformity with fact."
I agree with the idea that a person can collect information/data and not understand it; simply repeating facts (the factual basis being understood by others, usually) doesn't mean someone understands those facts and how they fit within the landscape of truth.
My comment was more directed at the idea that data isn't needed. I would agree that at some point one has to move beyond the established data in order to break new ground; to move beyond the knowledge of others to internalize the information and make it your own. However, this still must conform to objective truth/reality...as much as possible.
The idea of cup being full is an example of how knowledge obfuscates, so I agree we all should periodically empty our proverbial cup...heck, the shape of the tea is determined by the cup, so why not take it a step further and find a new cup altogether from time to time. Still, at some point, once the new cup and tea have been established, we must drink or we're wasting all that delicious sencha! Or omiki, as the spiritual case may be. Point being, sure, as much as possible get rid of presumption; open ourselves up to new possibilities; but respect the objective efforts of the master tea-maker.
So, don't memorize dates and other data, much is superfluous to application of axioms, but they still apply to the verification process since the data still reflects reality. Much can be inferred...the truth triangulated from such "meaningless" data. And if whatever we hold to be true doesn't match with objective (or as objective as possible) data, then it casts a doubt that is very reasonable.
Of course none of this applies to our own personal truths...those things which we apply to our own path, which is entirely our own internal compass. Plato would suggest we leave the cave to find a greater truth, but I would say what works for an individual is for the individual to determine. The shadows are real too and: "enlightenment and delusion: who is to say..."

mathewjgano
01-22-2012, 10:58 AM
I think it's interesting that in another thread, assuming I read it correctly, "aiki" was suggested to be a made up word used to help classify things into different categories; that the terminology might not be as important as so many people seem to think. Breath power is clearly a central theme in the Ueshiba Aikido system, regardless of whatever other forms of power it also includes. I'm guessing that whatever we're talking about, one could approach it from an external and/or internal point of view. Perhaps, de facto, most people approach it more from the external due to the subtle and difficult nature of the internal approach. However, perhaps it doesn't matter as long as we're doing our utmost: checking our work; sampling other points of view; always doing our best and being humble enough to know there's always more to learn and other people who know things we do not...or even if just a bit differently. The more data points we can hold together in our minds, the more the image takes shape...that's my "impressionism," at any rate.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-22-2012, 11:05 AM
... Still, at some point, once the new cup and tea have been established, we must drink or we're wasting all that delicious sencha! Or omiki, as the spiritual case may be.
Or kool-aid. It tastes good and takes people to a "different level" too.

mathewjgano
01-22-2012, 11:15 AM
Or kool-aid. It tastes good and takes people to a "different level" too.
:D
Beware the drink handed to you by a man in too-cool sunglasses! The sugar does make it frighteningly easy to swallow.

ChrisHein
01-22-2012, 12:10 PM
It's sad that all this non-point squabbling went on here. Nice bit Niall! Thanks for sharing.

mathewjgano
01-22-2012, 12:21 PM
Niall,
Sorry for any "non-point" discussion I may have added to. I enjoy your point of view and appreciate the expertise you bring to Aikiweb! I hope my comments weren't too far off-topic.
Sincerely,
Matt

graham christian
01-22-2012, 01:16 PM
Niall,
Sorry for any "non-point" discussion I may have added to. I enjoy your point of view and appreciate the expertise you bring to Aikiweb! I hope my comments weren't too far off-topic.
Sincerely,
Matt

Hi Matthew.
Nice cup of tea analogy, I like it. The tea is understanding and a little bit of sugar could be little bits of historical or other data. Too much and you've just got a load of syrup.

I wait for the day when more people realize true budo is love and then can relate Kokyu correctly.

The one thing that differentiates Aikido from the 'traditional' is that it is love based whilst the rest are fear based.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
01-22-2012, 10:15 PM
Hi Matthew.
Nice cup of tea analogy, I like it. The tea is understanding and a little bit of sugar could be little bits of historical or other data. Too much and you've just got a load of syrup.

I wait for the day when more people realize true budo is love and then can relate Kokyu correctly.

The one thing that differentiates Aikido from the 'traditional' is that it is love based whilst the rest are fear based.

Regards.G.

Thanks, Graham! I'm not sure about the rest all being fear based, but I agree the ideal budo is based in love. The "sugar" in the drink is whatever feels good or is attractive...and, good or bad, those things can be the hardest to look past. All we can do is our best to understand through mindful study.
Gambarimashyo!
Take care,
Matt

Ellis Amdur
01-28-2012, 11:29 AM
I was rereading Stanley Pranin's Aikido Pioneers: Pre-war Era, portions of which he's now published on-line, and I found a couple of fascinating passages:

Shioda Gozo
When I was in my younger days, I really had my doubts about aikido. When I saw what O-Sensei was doing, I doubted whether he was truly strong. Since I was his student I was always being thrown. I didn’t think he was strong, and thought there must be more to aikido than this. I decided to learn some jujutsu or bojutsu [staff art], and so I went to the dojo of Takaji Shimizu.5 There I was taught how to hold the bo. Then Shimizu Sensei came over to me and said, “It’s wrong to hold the bo so lightly. Attack me all out!” So I asked, “Is it really okay to attack?” and executed a quick movement which sent Shimizu Sensei flying. I thought then that aikido was truly wonderful, and after that, I applied myself to training. Kokyu power is tremendous. It’s different from training in jujutsu. If you execute a sharp movement, you can send your partner fiying. Later, when I met Shimizu Sensei at the Metropolitan Police Department, he said, “Shioda, I’m glad to see you.” That’s what happened.

Okumura Shigenobu
Mr. Inoue was extremely skilled. He was probably even more skilled at aiki than Mr. Tomiki, in fact, because Mr. Tomiki actually came more from a judo background.

I find these passages striking for several reasons. First of all, Shioda, clearly a pre-war student, uses the term "kokyu." And Okumura, who started during the war, mostly with Tomiki Kenji, was one of nidai Doshu's closest advisors, and therefore, one of the architects of post-O-sensei aikido, uses the term "aiki."

The second reason I find this fascinating is that Shioda is describing sending the headmaster of Shindo Muso-ryu jo flying, using kokyu, and clearly differentiates the power he was acquiring from jujutsu (angles, locks and deflections).

Third, the statement about Inoue, whose education was entirely Daito-ryu through his uncle, Morihei. Any innovations he made afterwards were long after Okumura would have seen him. But, Okumura does not say that he was doing something "different" from Tomiki, other than that Tomiki's judo influence may have impeded, in some respects, him ascending to the same heights. And despite where and when and what Inoue sensei learned (this "aiki,"), Okumura is not making a differentiation of that from aikido itself.

I think the sum total of all of this (beyond my post, to be sure) is that kokyu-ryoku was O-sensei's personal interpretation and development of this "thing" called aiki.

Ellis Amdur

DH
01-31-2012, 06:30 AM
I think the sum total of all of this (beyond my post, to be sure) is that kokyu-ryoku was O-sensei's personal interpretation and development of this "thing" called aiki.
Ellis Amdur
You have said this before.
Kokyu is in Daito ryu
Kokyu is discussed in interviews with Daito ryu teachers
As you noted, here was Shioda -a prewar student- discussing Kokyu

1. There is no evidence that Ueshiba's kokyu was different than those who taught him and his peers under Takeda.
2. On what basis and teaching can it be demonstrated to be different?
3. You state here that Kokyu was O-sensei's personal interpretation and development of this "thing" called aiki.
Yet he personally stated that the source of aiki was:
Six directions expressed in a circle of opposing forces
Was heaven/ earth/ man and the mountain echo
That the mystery of aiki is revealed with spiral energy rising from the right / descending on the left creating a friction in the body from which is born, in yo- (which in other passages he calls, aiki).
Now...he does in another singular reference cojoin breath power in conjunction with spiraling.

I can make a case that kokyu is part of all of the above, but I would never make the case that breath power is aiki.

In sum, it would appear that Ueshiba's Kokyu was not his discovery or creation- it was discussed and trained by his peers in Daito ryu-still the most probable place for him learning it. Nor does he himself consider kokyu his interpretation of aiki and he never said it was. What he actually did say appears to contradict that. This is logical since aiki is in fact more complicated than breath power alone.
In a related topic to that; there are reasons that he looked and moved markedly different from Tohei, and the reasons are expressed in both of their writings.
Dan

DH
01-31-2012, 09:44 AM
I want to also add that while I would never make the case that breath power is aiki, it can be part of it. I also would not limit kokyu to breath. Hence why I said I could make the argument that kokyu was part of that list I put up of his quotes. If we consider intent and ki to make aiki in us then breath training is part of that, but also something that can be added to that. Intent, Ki, aiki, breath power in training and or delivery of aiki (or jins). So we can say how does part of breath power make kokyu-but also be different and how can kokyu involve heaven/ earth/ man?
Dan

D-Ring
02-06-2012, 11:18 AM
I want to also add that while I would never make the case that breath power is aiki, it can be part of it. I also would not limit kokyu to breath. Hence why I said I could make the argument that kokyu was part of that list I put up of his quotes. If we consider intent and ki to make aiki in us then breath training is part of that, but also something that can be added to that. Intent, Ki, aiki, breath power in training and or delivery of aiki (or jins). So we can say how does part of breath power make kokyu-but also be different and how can kokyu involve heaven/ earth/ man?
Dan

Dan,

First, thanks for all your posts on Aiki/IP. After seven years on the mat I thought I'd reached a dead end with this art. Now I understand there's just a lot I've missed. :D

Now if I can show my ignorance, when you talk about kokyu in relation to power delivery are you referring to the way the word is sometimes used to mean two people working in harmony or more like kokyu-ho/power development? Thanks.

DH
02-06-2012, 12:01 PM
Dan,
First, thanks for all your posts on Aiki/IP. After seven years on the mat I thought I'd reached a dead end with this art. Now I understand there's just a lot I've missed. :D
Now if I can show my ignorance, when you talk about kokyu in relation to power delivery are you referring to the way the word is sometimes used to mean two people working in harmony or more like kokyu-ho/power development? Thanks.
Seven years?
I know people with 44 yrs in who feel like they are starting over and are thrilled to pieces!!

They really are two sides of the same coin as you can use breath to project or absorb in yourself or in a connection with others. Without going into too much detail;
Consider what it means if your limbs are attached to your middle.
Consider what it means if you can manipulate your middle
Consider what it means if one of three ways you can significantly manipulate your middle is through breath.
If your training allows the ground to support the bottom of hara, and your arms are supported by top of hara, then consider that a body pressurized up and down (part of heaven/earth/ man means that anyone touching your hand...feels the ground, without you using isolated or localized muscle. There are quite a few tips and components to work in learning to do just that well and then a host of other things to add.

Breath is significant but not nearly enough to gaining a more complete grasp on aiki. Breath training for conditioning is fine, breath power and pressurization in use in freestyle...sometimes. The conditioning is what is important. Without proper conditioning "thinking" you are doing anything meaningful with your breath is a pipe dream. Then again, most people I have met in aiki arts don't even know; where their hara is, what their hara is, much less how to train to use it. What aikido mostly is...is using the hips and shoulders for power...a huge mistake. But worse if you don't even realize it and remain convinced you are using your center-hence modern Aikido.
To quote a song Your body is a wonderland.... with specific ways to train:
One-point is not enough
Connection is not enough
Breath power is not enough.
Dan

Garth
02-06-2012, 02:24 PM
One-point is not enough
Connection is not enough
Breath power is not enough.
Dan

So would it be oversimplification to say those three ARE enough? Any one by itself is an weak under representation of what could be? Or are we still tip of the iceberg here?
I am of course expecting a direct no here.
Thx
G;) ;)

Carl Thompson
02-06-2012, 06:11 PM
Seven years?
I know people with 44 yrs in who feel like they are starting over and are thrilled to pieces!!

They really are two sides of the same coin as you can use breath to project or absorb in yourself or in a connection with others. Without going into too much detail;
Consider what it means if your limbs are attached to your middle.
Consider what it means if you can manipulate your middle
Consider what it means if one of three ways you can significantly manipulate your middle is through breath.
If your training allows the ground to support the bottom of hara, and your arms are supported by top of hara, then consider that a body pressurized up and down (part of heaven/earth/ man means that anyone touching your hand...feels the ground, without you using isolated or localized muscle. There are quite a few tips and components to work in learning to do just that well and then a host of other things to add.

Breath is significant but not nearly enough to gaining a more complete grasp on aiki. Breath training for conditioning is fine, breath power and pressurization in use in freestyle...sometimes. The conditioning is what is important. Without proper conditioning "thinking" you are doing anything meaningful with your breath is a pipe dream. Then again, most people I have met in aiki arts don't even know; where their hara is, what their hara is, much less how to train to use it. What aikido mostly is...is using the hips and shoulders for power...a huge mistake. But worse if you don't even realize it and remain convinced you are using your center-hence modern Aikido.
To quote a song Your body is a wonderland.... with specific ways to train:
One-point is not enough
Connection is not enough
Breath power is not enough.
Dan

Hello Dan

I got the impression that kokyu-ryoku didn't just refer to "breath power". One translation I saw was "abdominal breath power". In any case, do you think "kokyu" (not just breath) could be seen as IP while "connection" and the associated application of kokyu could be called "Aiki"?

Carl

Garth
02-06-2012, 06:59 PM
I want to also add that while I would never make the case that breath power is aiki, it can be part of it. I also would not limit kokyu to breath. Hence why I said I could make the argument that kokyu was part of that list I put up of his quotes. If we consider intent and ki to make aiki in us then breath training is part of that, but also something that can be added to that. Intent, Ki, aiki, breath power in training and or delivery of aiki (or jins). So we can say how does part of breath power make kokyu-but also be different and how can kokyu involve heaven/ earth/ man?
Dan

Sorry reread earlier posts , question answered
Intent was one of my next guesses
:D

DH
02-06-2012, 07:02 PM
Hello Dan

I got the impression that kokyu-ryoku didn't just refer to "breath power". One translation I saw was "abdominal breath power". In any case, do you think "kokyu" (not just breath) could be seen as IP while "connection" and the associated application of kokyu could be called "Aiki"?

Carl

Carl
1. Abdominal breath power
Is the pressurized breath that I referred to.
2. Connection as kokyu
Connection has to be trained-in you- prior to it having any appreciable effect on anyone outside of you.

3. To answer your other question
Breath training is part of Internal strength. Connection is part of Aiki
The qualities that you are training to connect tissue crosses over in everything. It gets much more sophisticated. In any event, there is a reason that aiki takes place in you first.

I choose to stop there because there is very little information I have seen offered by any teacher in Aikido to address a deeper study, and very little I have seen as evidence they even know. For that reason I can't really address who chooses what to train and why with their own terminology. I keep hearing "stories" from various people about their Japanese teachers who can do amazing things.
Who really cares? All you have to do is review every, single, thing, ever written or taught on film by the big top dogs in Aikido to see that when they were given the chance...there was nothing there to help us what-so-ever in regards to IP/aiki. Now that ..we...have chosen to teach ourselves... all of a sudden they are out teaching internal power and aiki as separate works. That may slide under most peoples radar, not mine. I think we need to do the heavy lifting and teach ourselves. :cool:
Dan

Carl Thompson
02-06-2012, 11:05 PM
Carl
1. Abdominal breath power
Is the pressurized breath that I referred to.
2. Connection as kokyu
Connection has to be trained-in you- prior to it having any appreciable effect on anyone outside of you.

3. To answer your other question
Breath training is part of Internal strength. Connection is part of Aiki
The qualities that you are training to connect tissue crosses over in everything. It gets much more sophisticated. In any event, there is a reason that aiki takes place in you first.

I choose to stop there because there is very little information I have seen offered by any teacher in Aikido to address a deeper study, and very little I have seen as evidence they even know. For that reason I can't really address who chooses what to train and why with their own terminology. I keep hearing "stories" from various people about their Japanese teachers who can do amazing things.
Who really cares? All you have to do is review every, single, thing, ever written or taught on film by the big top dogs in Aikido to see that when they were given the chance...there was nothing there to help us what-so-ever in regards to IP/aiki. Now that ..we...have chosen to teach ourselves... all of a sudden they are out teaching internal power and aiki as separate works. That may slide under most peoples radar, not mine. I think we need to do the heavy lifting and teach ourselves. :cool:
Dan

Hello Dan

Thank you very much for your explanation.

Carl