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genin
12-08-2011, 12:47 PM
I have been forced into a war recently. Without getting into specifics, my enemy just hit me with a "fire and forget" missile of sorts. They launched their attack over two months ago, and it just now hit me. We are now engaged in a very touchy form of warfare, in the sense that it is not a matter of straightfoward combat.

Part of it has become a legal battle, but that is only one dimension of it. The part that I am struggling with is the element or dimension of time. It took 9 weeks for their attack to find me, meanwhile the enemy had to wait patiently during the interim...and they continue to wait. But even once I counter that attack, it will again take weeks before I see any outcome myself.

I fear that my intensity to fight will fade over time, as I'm sure theirs did in the last two months. And at this point, I am not sure if my enemy cares enough to follow this out to its end. Perhaps this recent attack was just a knee jerk response from something that happened months ago. As I am completely in the right, and a victim of extortion, I feel it behooves me to follow this out to the end, and fight my enemy with every bit of intensity I can muster. I am a man of principle, and ultimately I want to see justice served. Even if my enemy wants to back out, or never cared about "winning" in the first place, I still want to make sure that they are forced to be accountable for what they did.

My question, or the topic of discussion, is how to manage anger and vengeance over a long period of time? How do we keep a proper warrior-minded mentality while engaging in a long term war?

LinTal
12-08-2011, 01:17 PM
Are you so convinced that managing to keep anger and vengeance over a long period of time is actually keeping a proper warrior-minded mentality? There are many long-term wars fought by mercenaries looking for a dollar (or esteem, or dominance, or fulfillment, etc.).

Nursing hatred will keep that fire. You need to decide at what costs, and if that is really what you want.

Cliff Judge
12-08-2011, 01:37 PM
Are you so convinced that managing to keep anger and vengeance over a long period of time is actually keeping a proper warrior-minded mentality? There are many long-term wars fought by mercenaries looking for a dollar (or esteem, or dominance, or fulfillment, etc.).


He said managing, not managing to keep. :p

genin
12-08-2011, 01:41 PM
Are you so convinced that managing to keep anger and vengeance over a long period of time is actually keeping a proper warrior-minded mentality? There are many long-term wars fought by mercenaries looking for a dollar (or esteem, or dominance, or fulfillment, etc.).

Nursing hatred will keep that fire. You need to decide at what costs, and if that is really what you want.
I'm not sure if I actually want to nuture hatred of my enemy for months and months on end. My question is as much about "should I" as it is, "how to". I fear that without an intense hatred to fuel my efforts, that apathy and convenience will eventually compel me to let this go, even at my own expense. And while letting it go may seem like a reasonable thing to do for most, imagine seeing one of your family members victimized, or you being victimized yourself, and someone telling you to just "let it go", meanwhile your enemy continues to lie about you, berate you behind your back, and laugh at your misfortune.

LinTal
12-08-2011, 01:50 PM
He said managing, not managing to keep. :p
Yep!! :) Figured the sense of it was the same.

I'm not sure if I actually want to nuture hatred of my enemy for months and months on end. My question is as much about "should I" as it is, "how to". I fear that without an intense hatred to fuel my efforts, that apathy and convenience will eventually compel me to let this go, even at my own expense. And while letting it go may seem like a reasonable thing to do for most, imagine seeing one of your family members victimized, or you being victimized yourself, and someone telling you to just "let it go", meanwhile your enemy continues to lie about you, berate you behind your back, and laugh at your misfortune.

There's the difference between the intentional and unintentional 'letting go' though, if you choose to keep following this through, will the situation be improved? Will the outcome be? What about the lasting effect for everyone involved?

genin
12-08-2011, 03:11 PM
There's the difference between the intentional and unintentional 'letting go' though, if you choose to keep following this through, will the situation be improved? Will the outcome be? What about the lasting effect for everyone involved?

It comes down to "What is my ultimate goal?" vs. "What outcome can I expect out of this?"

My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy. This is essentially the same goal that they have for me. My biggest concern is about my enemy's children, whom I have no desire to adversely effect in any way. But the same way a judge wouldn't hesitate to sentence a killer to life in prison, even if the killer was a loving father and would never see his 5 children again, I too can't let the fact that my enemy has children influence my sense of justice. I won't target them, but I will allow them to fall victim to collateral damage if it comes down to it.

What outcome do I expect? That I honestly can't predict it. My enemy is not intelligent, nor do they possess good decision making skills. That being said, they'd ruin their own lives just to spite me. Therefore, I have to be willing and able to accommodate them in that respect, at all costs.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-08-2011, 03:19 PM
My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy.

Go see a doctor.

genin
12-08-2011, 03:27 PM
Go see a doctor.

Not the first time I've been told that, lolz!

Shadowfax
12-08-2011, 03:58 PM
Just let it go....

genin
12-08-2011, 04:05 PM
Just let it go....
Heard that one too!

mathewjgano
12-08-2011, 04:09 PM
I'm not sure if I actually want to nuture hatred of my enemy for months and months on end. My question is as much about "should I" as it is, "how to". I fear that without an intense hatred to fuel my efforts, that apathy and convenience will eventually compel me to let this go, even at my own expense. And while letting it go may seem like a reasonable thing to do for most, imagine seeing one of your family members victimized, or you being victimized yourself, and someone telling you to just "let it go", meanwhile your enemy continues to lie about you, berate you behind your back, and laugh at your misfortune.

My personal opinion is that if it was anger keeping the motivation around it probably was not worth it. If it is anger keeping the motivation around, it's probably not worth it. I take a kind of Mr. T approach where I generally feel pity the "foo'." To my mind, an attack is almost always a sign of desperation. I pity people who are in a desperate frame of mind...even when they're also ass-holes:D . Kill 'em with kindness and hold on to your center. My guess is that most people watch the examples you provide more than the hearsay of antagonists. Where crimes have been committed, you have the right to file charges. Where they have not, you don't.
How do you manage a long-term fight (your gist, as I've read it)? You don't overdo things and you don't fight where you don't have to.

genin
12-08-2011, 04:45 PM
My personal opinion is that if it was anger keeping the motivation around it probably was not worth it. If it is anger keeping the motivation around, it's probably not worth it. I take a kind of Mr. T approach where I generally feel pity the "foo'." To my mind, an attack is almost always a sign of desperation. I pity people who are in a desperate frame of mind...even when they're also ass-holes:D . Kill 'em with kindness and hold on to your center. My guess is that most people watch the examples you provide more than the hearsay of antagonists. Where crimes have been committed, you have the right to file charges. Where they have not, you don't.
How do you manage a long-term fight (your gist, as I've read it)? You don't overdo things and you don't fight where you don't have to.

Those are good points Matthew. I felt pity too, up until the point where I realized I was being targeted out of sheer contempt for who I am as a person. I don't care if you (they) throw me under the bus to save yourself, but don't toss me under there just so that you and your friends can laugh as my body bounces around under the tires!

I agree that trying to do too much too fast is problematic. Choose my battles, maybe? That's a universal truthism.

LinTal
12-08-2011, 04:57 PM
This is a valid issue; matters of the heart are rarely simple.

It comes down to "What is my ultimate goal?" vs. "What outcome can I expect out of this?"

My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy. This is essentially the same goal that they have for me.
...
That being said, they'd ruin their own lives just to spite me. Therefore, I have to be willing and able to accommodate them in that respect, at all costs.

Be mindful of the fact that these (or any) emotions are fleeting; you said yourself that theirs are starting to fade. The fact of your actions will remain, and it is by these that you will measure yourself and be remembered by. What effect will five minutes of satisfaction give? A heritage of bitterness for everyone remotely involved if this proceeds accordingly. Removing labels ("victim", "enemy") will help return a clear-headed perspective to the situation.

An example. You mentioned the prison system, and this reminds me of the original penitentiary theory. The idea was to create a supportive environment where people could pass through anger/grief cycles in a way that didn't impose upon others and be integrated back within society. Similarly, for your situation, perhaps what is needed is a space for both parties to come to a truer kind of understanding.

Have you both started moving towards this? There are some fights that can only be won by choosing not to fight.

genin
12-08-2011, 05:28 PM
This is a valid issue; matters of the heart are rarely simple.

Be mindful of the fact that these (or any) emotions are fleeting; you said yourself that theirs are starting to fade. The fact of your actions will remain, and it is by these that you will measure yourself and be remembered by. What effect will five minutes of satisfaction give? A heritage of bitterness for everyone remotely involved if this proceeds accordingly. Removing labels ("victim", "enemy") will help return a clear-headed perspective to the situation.

An example. You mentioned the prison system, and this reminds me of the original penitentiary theory. The idea was to create a supportive environment where people could pass through anger/grief cycles in a way that didn't impose upon others and be integrated back within society. Similarly, for your situation, perhaps what is needed is a space for both parties to come to a truer kind of understanding.

Have you both started moving towards this? There are some fights that can only be won by choosing not to fight.My enemy just communicated with me today, and they made it very clear where they stand. Some people will become, and remain, life long enemies. It's sad, but it's part of life.

I've been willing to reconcile and move on from the very beginning, and I'd even fully relent if a genuine apology was given to me. But I'm dealing with weak-minded, mean-spirited people. They'll never be "the bigger person". Even if I tried to extend them the olive branch, they just snatch it out my hands and try to beat me with it. This is what I'm up against.

kewms
12-08-2011, 07:32 PM
Without more details, it's impossible to say how to proceed.

In some fights, one is actually "playing to the gallery" as it were. One's antagonist may never come around to one's point of view, but by extending the olive branch you can show yourself to be the better person and therefore win the battle for public opinion. This is quite often the case in academic and internet arguments where the actual stakes are relatively low but the reputational and social capital at stake is large.

In some fights, a person is trying to do you physical harm, and the logic of self-defense applies. The only acceptable end-state is for them to cease the harmful behavior, permanently. Besides simple assault situations, unsafe work or living conditions fall in this category.

And some fights are about money. These are generally wars of attrition. Warren Buffet will survive pretty much any legal battle he might get involved in, because in the very worst case where nothing goes his way, he can probably still find a sum that will make his antagonist go away without unduly diminishing his own resources. He can also interpose many layers between himself and his antagonist, minimizing his personal inconvenience. Most of us don't have Warren Buffet's resources, but the same logic applies. At some point, "winning" and "losing" become less important than balancing the resources invested against the possible gains. If you see this particular fight as one that you must win, and one that is likely to go on for a long time, then it is your best interest to conserve your financial and mental resources for the long haul.

Katherine

Rob Watson
12-08-2011, 08:12 PM
Introduce them to someone that will divert their attention away from you. The world is a big place and there are all kinds of folks out there.

Cady Goldfield
12-08-2011, 08:42 PM
My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy. This is essentially the same goal that they have for me.

"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." -- Genghis Khan

"What is best in life? To crush your enemies and see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." -- Conan the Barbarian

As citizens of a civic-minded society, I'd hope that we can find more peaceable means of having our way than did Genghis Khan or Conan the Barbarian.

What good can come from vengeance, for you, except to poison your own soul?
If you can neutralize your opponent's attack and stop him from imposing further harm on you, that would be a far more productive use of your strategizing efforts, in my opinion.

lbb
12-08-2011, 08:47 PM
I've been willing to reconcile and move on from the very beginning, and I'd even fully relent if a genuine apology was given to me. But I'm dealing with weak-minded, mean-spirited people. They'll never be "the bigger person". Even if I tried to extend them the olive branch, they just snatch it out my hands and try to beat me with it. This is what I'm up against.

Do you have to be up against it at all? What stops you from just walking away from it?

There are many situations in life where you aren't going to get whatever you think of as justice, or a fair outcome. There are situations where someone wrongs you, and you'll never manage to extract from them the "cost", whatever that is. Even if you believe that the hurts done to someone else somehow balance the hurts that they did you (they don't, but that's another discussion), in many situations you will never have the opportunity to achieve that balance.

Consider the situation of a child who is raised by an alcoholic or abusive parent. Certainly, in any simplistic moral calculus, you'd have to say that that parent "owes" the child. Now put yourself in the position of that child, grown to adulthood. You have to decide what you're going to do with your life. Are you going to hang around trying to get this parent to pay you back for all the hurt that they caused you? Or...are you going to let it go and get on with your life? It's your choice. But the hard truth is, while you're stubbornly waiting on a debt that you will most likely never collect, you're letting go of your opportunities to pursue something better.

So, you're probably thinking, that's different -- this person I'm dealing with is just a meanie. At any time, he could just stop being such a jerk, give me my abject apology, and make things right! So here's a question for you: why do you think that his power to stop being a jerk is so much greater, so much more a matter of a simple decision to just do it, than your power to let it go and get on with your life?

The more you hang onto your need to be vindicated, to be right, to get revenge, the worse those things will stink, the more they will eat away at you, and the less you will be able to open your hand to take hold of anything worthwhile.

LinTal
12-09-2011, 06:38 AM
A man had two daughters; one was beautiful but mean-spirited, the other was plain-looking but gentle-hearted. Which is the more attractive one?

Just as this, one course of action may seem utterly desirable at first experience. However, it is the other that brings satisfaction rather than just glory.

RonRagusa
12-09-2011, 07:12 AM
Do you have to be up against it at all? What stops you from just walking away from it?

There are many situations in life where you aren't going to get whatever you think of as justice, or a fair outcome. There are situations where someone wrongs you, and you'll never manage to extract from them the "cost", whatever that is. Even if you believe that the hurts done to someone else somehow balance the hurts that they did you (they don't, but that's another discussion), in many situations you will never have the opportunity to achieve that balance.

Consider the situation of a child who is raised by an alcoholic or abusive parent. Certainly, in any simplistic moral calculus, you'd have to say that that parent "owes" the child. Now put yourself in the position of that child, grown to adulthood. You have to decide what you're going to do with your life. Are you going to hang around trying to get this parent to pay you back for all the hurt that they caused you? Or...are you going to let it go and get on with your life? It's your choice. But the hard truth is, while you're stubbornly waiting on a debt that you will most likely never collect, you're letting go of your opportunities to pursue something better.

So, you're probably thinking, that's different -- this person I'm dealing with is just a meanie. At any time, he could just stop being such a jerk, give me my abject apology, and make things right! So here's a question for you: why do you think that his power to stop being a jerk is so much greater, so much more a matter of a simple decision to just do it, than your power to let it go and get on with your life?

The more you hang onto your need to be vindicated, to be right, to get revenge, the worse those things will stink, the more they will eat away at you, and the less you will be able to open your hand to take hold of anything worthwhile.

+1

Ron

genin
12-09-2011, 07:22 AM
Cady Goldfield wrote:
What good can come from vengeance, for you, except to poison your own soul?
If you can neutralize your opponent's attack and stop him from imposing further harm on you, that would be a far more productive use of your strategizing efforts, in my opinion.Well, what I'm going to do now is just focus on my legal case, as any other endeavor would probably undermine that. My enemy is already trying to bait me into a harrassment charge, or at a minimum, trying to get me to compromise my defense case. So all I can reasonably do right now is just get my case in order, and prepare to destroy them in court.

I think the problem I was having was my rage was overshadowing the real reason I am doing this. The reason is to show them that I'll NEVER submit to their demands, EVER. And I don't need to be angry or enraged to do that, however much I may feel those emotions. Even once the anger fades, I'll still be resolute and clear minded in my determination to defy my enemy at all costs. The truth is that I don't need to continue to foster and nurse my anger. I can let go of it, yet still continue on with my calculating plan.

lbb wrote:
The more you hang onto your need to be vindicated, to be right, to get revenge, the worse those things will stink, the more they will eat away at you, and the less you will be able to open your hand to take hold of anything worthwhile.

My enemy, through their actions, BEGS me to prove them wrong. They compel me to defy them. And they force my hand against them. I was 9 weeks moved on with my life and forgotten about them, before they dragged me back for another go. The way I see it, I have little choice in this matter, regardless of the personal costs.

LinTal
12-09-2011, 07:27 AM
My enemy, through their actions, BEGS me to prove them wrong. They compel me to defy them. And they force my hand against them. I was 9 weeks moved on with my life and forgotten about them, before they dragged me back for another go. The way I see it, I have little choice in this matter, regardless of the personal costs.

The choice is there. You are more than a victim caught in a perpetrator's role. So what else are you?

genin
12-09-2011, 07:40 AM
The choice is there. You are more than a victim caught in a perpetrator's role. So what else are you?

I am a person. I can still be kindhearted to others, yet show my enemy no mercy.

lbb
12-09-2011, 08:24 AM
My enemy, through their actions, BEGS me to prove them wrong. They compel me to defy them. And they force my hand against them. I was 9 weeks moved on with my life and forgotten about them, before they dragged me back for another go. The way I see it, I have little choice in this matter, regardless of the personal costs.

Speaking from personal experience, you probably have much more choice than you think you do. Even if they are BEGGING you to prove them wrong, what's forcing you to accommodate them? They can't force you to engage. You were 9 weeks moved on and they "dragged" you back -- how? By showing up at your house and breaking down the door and holding you at gunpoint?

The solution is simple. If they call, hang up. If they email, put their address in your junk filters and delete all their email unread. If you see them on the street, turn and walk away. If they pursue some legal action, let your lawyer handle all communication. Engaging will accomplish two things, neither of which you want: it will get you all worked up, and it will further encourage them -- they just tried their tactic on you, and hey, it worked!

So you say that you can't help getting worked up? That's natural. The best cure is, once again, simply not to respond or to show that you are affected -- in fact, not to show that you've even heard them. Stick to this, and over time, you'll feel that you're less troubled by it. And without the encouragement that you're giving them by engaging in their conflict, your antagonist will most likely get bored and seek gratification elsewhere.

Ultimately, you need to honestly reevaluate your "I HAVE to do this" assumptions. "I can't" is the corollary of "I HAVE to", and until you question the "I HAVE to"s, you'll find your life full of "I can't"s.

genin
12-09-2011, 08:56 AM
Speaking from personal experience, you probably have much more choice than you think you do. Even if they are BEGGING you to prove them wrong, what's forcing you to accommodate them? They can't force you to engage. You were 9 weeks moved on and they "dragged" you back -- how? By showing up at your house and breaking down the door and holding you at gunpoint?

The solution is simple. If they call, hang up. If they email, put their address in your junk filters and delete all their email unread. If you see them on the street, turn and walk away. If they pursue some legal action, let your lawyer handle all communication. Engaging will accomplish two things, neither of which you want: it will get you all worked up, and it will further encourage them -- they just tried their tactic on you, and hey, it worked!

So you say that you can't help getting worked up? That's natural. The best cure is, once again, simply not to respond or to show that you are affected -- in fact, not to show that you've even heard them. Stick to this, and over time, you'll feel that you're less troubled by it. And without the encouragement that you're giving them by engaging in their conflict, your antagonist will most likely get bored and seek gratification elsewhere.

Ultimately, you need to honestly reevaluate your "I HAVE to do this" assumptions. "I can't" is the corollary of "I HAVE to", and until you question the "I HAVE to"s, you'll find your life full of "I can't"s.

I guess you have to understand it from the enemy's point of view. They figure they can sue me, ignore me, and everything will be a-okay for them. I don't even think they care about winning the suit, so long as they can force me to be invovled in it. I can't ignore it, otherwise the law will issue a lein against me, and I'd still have to pay them.

They are hiding behind the law, abusing the legal system in a most unethical manner. I anticipate a glorious day in court for me, but other possibilites are that I lose the case due to a non-sympathetic judge, or my enemy simply abandons the case, and I win by default. To me, victory in court would be the ultimate revenge, but I can't say for certain that my enemy expects to win. I think they are just doing all of this to try and bait me into doing something really stupid. As long as I protect my interests, and proceed prudently, I'm pretty sure this will all go my way.

lbb
12-09-2011, 10:30 AM
I guess you have to understand it from the enemy's point of view. They figure they can sue me, ignore me, and everything will be a-okay for them. I don't even think they care about winning the suit, so long as they can force me to be invovled in it. I can't ignore it, otherwise the law will issue a lein against me, and I'd still have to pay them.

My solution there would be to let the lawyers handle it and make no public appearance or statements beyond what is absolutely required by the legal process. That seems like the best option both from a practical and an emotional perspective. Let your lawyer be the public face of your involvement in the case; he/she is the professional and you are not.

kewms
12-09-2011, 10:41 AM
My solution there would be to let the lawyers handle it and make no public appearance or statements beyond what is absolutely required by the legal process. That seems like the best option both from a practical and an emotional perspective. Let your lawyer be the public face of your involvement in the case; he/she is the professional and you are not.

Which I'm sure is what the lawyer would advise as well. Not only is he the professional, he's much more objective and therefore more able to avoid emotionally-driven statements that would make things worse.

Katherine

genin
12-09-2011, 10:57 AM
Which I'm sure is what the lawyer would advise as well. Not only is he the professional, he's much more objective and therefore more able to avoid emotionally-driven statements that would make things worse.

Katherine

I suppose now would be a good time to mention it's a small claims court issue. No lawyers are involved.

lbb
12-09-2011, 03:22 PM
I suppose now would be a good time to mention it's a small claims court issue. No lawyers are involved.

Then show up when you're required to show up, do what you have to do, behave like a civilized adult throughout, and then leave. If you show up in any court saying some of the things you've said here about revenge and wanting your antagonist to suffer and so on, it won't go well for you.

genin
12-09-2011, 03:37 PM
Then show up when you're required to show up, do what you have to do, behave like a civilized adult throughout, and then leave. If you show up in any court saying some of the things you've said here about revenge and wanting your antagonist to suffer and so on, it won't go well for you.
Oh I know. Once I get in courtroom my demeanor will be nothing of what you see here. I'll be humble, self-deprecating, and sincere. Just for effect of course.The only intensity I will display, is when trying to prove that I'm telling the truth. Judges look at things like that.

I believe that my enemy will not be able to resist their urge to show their contempt for me, which will make them look bad in court, as that will come across as a possible motive for filing a false suit. And hopefully, much like it has been outside of the court, when the enemy is prompted to account for their lies, they will become agitated and belligerent. A tell-tale sign that someone is lying.

LinTal
12-10-2011, 05:46 AM
When all this is over, and time passes and heals things sufficiently, come back and re-read this thread. Much like aikido, you may find new understandings from the same thing in a different season.

genin
12-14-2011, 11:10 AM
When all this is over, and time passes and heals things sufficiently, come back and re-read this thread. Much like aikido, you may find new understandings from the same thing in a different season.

After several days, my perspective has changed on this, as I knew it would. The anger has faded, mainly because I am making it fade. I realize now that my enemy accomplished all they wanted to accomplish, which was to make me very angry and frustrated. In that sense, they won. So maybe the 4th dimension isn't the element of time, as I initially thought. Perhaps it is that invisible and ephemeral territory that is located somewhere in between victory and defeat.

LinTal
12-14-2011, 02:44 PM
After several days, my perspective has changed on this, as I knew it would. The anger has faded, mainly because I am making it fade.

Wonderful!!

Just 1 more element to go. Get your heart to stop using the words 'enemy' and 'defeat' to drag your mind back into it and you're free.

You really don't want want that poison in your world. Well done for pushing through so far, it's not easy but you are capable of choosing the person you become.

genin
12-14-2011, 03:51 PM
Wonderful!!

Just 1 more element to go. Get your heart to stop using the words 'enemy' and 'defeat' to drag your mind back into it and you're free.

You really don't want want that poison in your world. Well done for pushing through so far, it's not easy but you are capable of choosing the person you become.

"Enemy" is a generic term I use to describe anyone who has a conflict of interest with me. I don't necessarily mean it in the sense that I have a deep hatred for my enemies. Depending on the day, someone may be an enemy one day, and an ally the next. Defeat, now that's a different term. Again, I don't even know what constitutes victory in this scenario, so how can I truly know what defeat entails?

LinTal
12-15-2011, 04:03 AM
I don't even know what constitutes victory in this scenario, so how can I truly know what defeat entails?

The same way we recognize victory :) . It's either of the outer or the inner nature. The outer is shallower but easier to recognize. Eg, winning a court case. The inner has more substance and is resilient to external personalities or situations. Others cannot interfereif the true joy, true victory comes from within. Eg, conquering emotions to live as one you respect, rather than one you sometimes feel like being.

In life off the mat, what is the difference between forgiveness and mercy? I expect the answer would include the depth of commitment and true awareness of a situation. I know which one I'd prefer, to both receive and to give, but I also know which one is harder.

In aikido, how can we relate the difference between irimi nage and kotegaeshi to these life situations? I would expect the answer to involve redirecting the other as the truer control, the inner victory, rather than coercing the other through the immediate pain (of a joint lock, in this instance).

Kevin Leavitt
12-15-2011, 05:52 AM
What constitutes victory? simply put...you achieve desired outcome that you sought. (end state). If you don't, then that represents failure or defeat.

genin
12-15-2011, 07:59 AM
My stepdad was over last night, and I got myself all worked up explaining the situation to him. He saw what it was doing to me and realized how absurd this whole thing is. He's was like "Look, this is petty and ridiculous. Just don't even worry about it. Go to court, whatever. If you lose, I'll pay you the money, it's no big deal. Don't waste your energy on them."

I told him I totally agree, but this also illustrates the odd situation that I'm in. I dont' need the money. I don't care about the money. It's about the principle of the matter. Ironically, I had already told my enemy that my counter suit against them was being financed by my Dad. That was a lie, but I knew it would bother them to know that I was not being inconvenienced finacially, considering how inconvenient the financial situation has been for them.

Who knows, maybe I have already won. Maybe the enemy doesn't care anymore and this is all a foregone conclusion. The unknowing is part of the 4th dimension of combat. I don't know if I've already won, or what that victory truly entails. My enemy doesn't know if they'll achieve their victory either, nor what fate awaits them weeks/months/years after the court case is settled. I think all of that is fascinating in itself, even if I step back and look at all this objectively.

lbb
12-15-2011, 11:55 AM
"Just let it go" is a bit like the old Reagan-era so-called anti-drug program whose slogan was "Just say no". The word "just" always troubled me a little. I understood the logic of it: letting it go, or saying no, is usually the best approach, meaning most likely to yield the best results with the least cost. But the word "just" always had a slight unfortunate association of "it's no big deal", as if the effort involved were negligible. Coming from people who (in my view) didn't understand the costs involved in doing what they advised, the advice to simply do such-and-such always seemed a bit cavalier. Well, sometimes it IS cavalier. But "simple" does not mean "easy". There are many situations, and a confrontation is surely one of them, where the best course of action is not the simplest one, and certainly not the most gratifying one in the moment. But the moment passes, and the gratification with it, and you're left with the fallout.

The reason I'm saying all that, Roger, is to try and make clear that we who have been advising you to "just let it go", don't think it's easy. It takes a lot of resolve to not be baited and react. But it's generally the path that gets you past the distress and into a more comfortable place sooner.