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Mary Eastland
12-04-2011, 07:41 AM
Shiho nage was a difficult technique for me. Ron always did it a little different from Maruyama, Sensei. I would be almost getting it then we would go to summer or winter camp and I would get confused again. I could do the motions of it and it probably didn't look to bad yet it didn't feel strong. My hands always felt so weak. I remember complaining about my wrists. men's wrists were so much bigger and stronger.

I used to say I hate shiho nage or I can't do it. Of course that became self fulfilling.
I decided to change my mind about it. I couldn't say I loved shihonage yet but I said that "I am embracing shiho nage". "I am exploring shiho nage."

Sure enough, it got better. Especially after we stopped going to camps because now I was doing one way with minor changes instead of a whole change of technique.

The "Summer of Shiho nage" changed everything. Stepping into my fears and frustrations was the key. I broke it down to three steps: L step, hands on a horizontal plain, then bend ukes elbow. I taught and practiced shiho nage every class this summer. My understanding of the mechanics and how to use Ki instead of hand strength grew with day of practice.

I can't believe I can tell you I love shiho nage now. I can't wait for class today so we can revisit it and see how it feels on this day with each new uke.

inframan
12-08-2011, 08:46 AM
I have had the same experience lately, I never liked it either. There is a lot going on and it requires a lot of movement. I decided to just embrace it and act like it was a favorite, now I understand it much better and it just feels like another technique to me.

NagaBaba
12-08-2011, 09:15 AM
Shiho nage was a difficult technique for me. Ron always did it a little different from Maruyama, Sensei. I would be almost getting it then we would go to summer or winter camp and I would get confused again. I could do the motions of it and it probably didn't look to bad yet it didn't feel strong. My hands always felt so weak. I remember complaining about my wrists. men's wrists were so much bigger and stronger.

I used to say I hate shiho nage or I can't do it. Of course that became self fulfilling.
I decided to change my mind about it. I couldn't say I loved shihonage yet but I said that "I am embracing shiho nage". "I am exploring shiho nage."

Sure enough, it got better. Especially after we stopped going to camps because now I was doing one way with minor changes instead of a whole change of technique.

The "Summer of Shiho nage" changed everything. Stepping into my fears and frustrations was the key. I broke it down to three steps: L step, hands on a horizontal plain, then bend ukes elbow. I taught and practiced shiho nage every class this summer. My understanding of the mechanics and how to use Ki instead of hand strength grew with day of practice.

I can't believe I can tell you I love shiho nage now. I can't wait for class today so we can revisit it and see how it feels on this day with each new uke.

I must say I disagree with you. Before going to such esoteric concepts like Ki, if it exists, students have to learn pure biomechanics of the technique. It means, how to create multiple leverages on different joints, then how to control and turn the hips of attacker with these leverages, next how to unbalance him and maintain this unbalance whole way down.

Beginners have to develop a strong grip that is coming from center, not from shoulders. Such development can be done i.e. with a lot of bokken/ jo practice. Of course always there will be somebody very strong that will be able to make you work hard, but that is a point there is no sense to practice always with complaisant attacker.

Without such basic mechanics, where students understand very clearly each stage of technique, and can reproduce it at their will, there is no point to go further.

So yes, it is necessary to work hard with all your physical power first few years, to develop efficient techniques on resisting attacker.

Introducing Ki-like concepts only lead to distortion and watering down aikido.

Cliff Judge
12-08-2011, 09:17 AM
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

Mary Eastland
12-08-2011, 10:49 AM
I see that we really disagree, Szczepan Janczuk.
To me, Aikido without Ki development is just movement. I hope you continue to enjoy your practice.

Mary

amoeba
12-08-2011, 10:51 AM
Oh, I've actually always liked shiho nage omote, it's kind of my default technique in Jiyu waza (meaning if I don't think at all, I'll auomatically do it...:D )

Shiho nage ura now, that one's strange. Feels realy awkward and constructed to me...

Eva Antonia
12-08-2011, 02:30 PM
I cannot remotely imagine myself embracing tenshi nage and getting able to perform it correctly.

(and koshi nage, and kokyu ho, and...)

I fear it's not only the positive approach but also some basic understanding I lack for these techniques.

Maybe it comes one day, and then I'll embrace them,too.

Best regards,

Eva

Janet Rosen
12-08-2011, 05:43 PM
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

I have heard/seen a few descriptions but the one that has stayed with me:
Easier to do if performed as a cooperative exercise w/ nage holding a bokken. Uke does a yokomen attack.
First cut is shomen cut to uke's wrist - uke allows himself to stay connected at that point and move with nage
Second cut is lateral across uke's belly (for purpose of exercise, bokken blade and uke's wrist stay in contact)
Third cut as one passes steps through is bokken turning blade up to cut at uke's arm or at another opponent
Turn and strike shomen again = throw

graham christian
12-08-2011, 08:12 PM
Good to see you're sticking at it and gaining. I love shihonage.

Here's a funny thing. It seems the way I describe it to beginners gets through well for I am always amazed at how easily they take to it and do it. The problems for them comes in the refinement of it.

Regards.G.

lbb
12-08-2011, 08:19 PM
I must say I disagree with you. Before going to such esoteric concepts like Ki, if it exists, students have to learn pure biomechanics of the technique. It means, how to create multiple leverages on different joints, then how to control and turn the hips of attacker with these leverages, next how to unbalance him and maintain this unbalance whole way down.

Indeed...but in a sense, there are no "pure biomechanics", or at least, no universal ones. If you've got small hands and uke has enormous blacksmith wrists, your biomechanics will be different than vice versa.

I'm remembering a class at summer camp where I got a small, wiry yudansha with small hands and wrists to show me his "nikkyo with big people" tricks :D

graham christian
12-08-2011, 08:32 PM
I must say I disagree with you. Before going to such esoteric concepts like Ki, if it exists, students have to learn pure biomechanics of the technique. It means, how to create multiple leverages on different joints, then how to control and turn the hips of attacker with these leverages, next how to unbalance him and maintain this unbalance whole way down.

Beginners have to develop a strong grip that is coming from center, not from shoulders. Such development can be done i.e. with a lot of bokken/ jo practice. Of course always there will be somebody very strong that will be able to make you work hard, but that is a point -- there is no sense to practice always with complaisant attacker.

Without such basic mechanics, where students understand very clearly each stage of technique, and can reproduce it at their will, there is no point to go further.

So yes, it is necessary to work hard with all your physical power first few years, to develop efficient techniques on resisting attacker.

Introducing Ki-like concepts only lead to distortion and watering down aikido.

Not quite true. I teach Ki principles first, along with technical. Anyway, the view of developing a 'strong' grip and relating it it bokken are interesting.

In essence the holding of the wrist is no different to the holding of a sword.

The simplicity of shihonage is that it is two sword cuts in essence also.

Regards.G.

Mario Tobias
12-08-2011, 10:16 PM
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

the 4 directions are simulating the 4 direction suburi. I saw a youtube video of saito sensei doing this that is when I understood where the 4 directions are coming from

RuteMendes
01-23-2012, 01:42 PM
shiho nage... my favourite technique *-*
It's very beautiful to see and painful to do if the nage isn't careful!

Phil Van Treese
01-23-2012, 02:05 PM
I hear about Omote and Ura Shiho Nage all the time. But does anyone know, or has anyone heard of, "straightline" Shiho nage??? Probably not since it's not well known. "Straightline" Shiho nage has no omote or ura movement. My students love to do SL esp when they go to seminars. Messes a lot of people up and makes them wonder where it came from. One of my favorite techniques too.

Steven
01-23-2012, 03:28 PM
Huh? Please explain

sakumeikan
01-23-2012, 05:18 PM
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

Hi Cliff,
Try this from migi gyaku hamni katatedori.1.Irimi -uke thrown in direction he faces.2.Tenkan -Uke gets thrown from whence he came.3. Use footwork to get to right angle to Uke [L shape ] enter /cut down uke .Uke gets thrown in an direction approx 90%[Think compass].utilise circular motion [ushiro tenkan ]lead uke in large circular motion , uke will then revolve around tori and be thrown in a different path from no 1/2/3.No 4 is the tricky one.Try visualizing north/south /east /west.Hope this helps.Joe.

Cliff Judge
01-24-2012, 11:00 AM
Hi Cliff,
Try this from migi gyaku hamni katatedori.1.Irimi -uke thrown in direction he faces.2.Tenkan -Uke gets thrown from whence he came.3. Use footwork to get to right angle to Uke [L shape ] enter /cut down uke .Uke gets thrown in an direction approx 90%[Think compass].utilise circular motion [ushiro tenkan ]lead uke in large circular motion , uke will then revolve around tori and be thrown in a different path from no 1/2/3.No 4 is the tricky one.Try visualizing north/south /east /west.Hope this helps.Joe.

Thanks very much for this...so, N/S/E/W, based on which way tori is facing when she initiates her attack? I will give that a try and see if I can make it work.

mathewjgano
01-24-2012, 01:17 PM
I hear about Omote and Ura Shiho Nage all the time. But does anyone know, or has anyone heard of, "straightline" Shiho nage??? Probably not since it's not well known. "Straightline" Shiho nage has no omote or ura movement. My students love to do SL esp when they go to seminars. Messes a lot of people up and makes them wonder where it came from. One of my favorite techniques too.

Is that a little like Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi? This video is poor quality, but it's the best one I could find on it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9AWy_UuHgM) It's the second waza performed.

mathewjgano
01-24-2012, 01:36 PM
Shiho nage was a difficult technique for me. Ron always did it a little different from Maruyama, Sensei. I would be almost getting it then we would go to summer or winter camp and I would get confused again. I could do the motions of it and it probably didn't look to bad yet it didn't feel strong. My hands always felt so weak. I remember complaining about my wrists. men's wrists were so much bigger and stronger.

I used to say I hate shiho nage or I can't do it. Of course that became self fulfilling.
I decided to change my mind about it. I couldn't say I loved shihonage yet but I said that "I am embracing shiho nage". "I am exploring shiho nage."

Sure enough, it got better. Especially after we stopped going to camps because now I was doing one way with minor changes instead of a whole change of technique.

The "Summer of Shiho nage" changed everything. Stepping into my fears and frustrations was the key. I broke it down to three steps: L step, hands on a horizontal plain, then bend ukes elbow. I taught and practiced shiho nage every class this summer. My understanding of the mechanics and how to use Ki instead of hand strength grew with day of practice.

I can't believe I can tell you I love shiho nage now. I can't wait for class today so we can revisit it and see how it feels on this day with each new uke.

It's amazing how that embracing attitude opens doors, isn't it? I have to constantly remind myself of that when I dislike something. I've always liked shihonage for some reason...not that I do it at all well. I really enjoy the huge stretch I get as uke. Shihonage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecOSEtj_56A&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLD45164DA117CE8A5)

Phil Van Treese
01-24-2012, 01:54 PM
Straightline Shiho Nage is somewhat like Tenkai Kotegaeshi but instead of focusing on the wrist, uke's elbow is on Nage's shoulder and all that is required is to bend your knees, drop straight down while bending a little bit foreward. To talk someone thru it on the computer is hard, to demonstrate is easy.

sakumeikan
01-24-2012, 01:58 PM
Thanks very much for this...so, N/S/E/W, based on which way tori is facing when she initiates her attack? I will give that a try and see if I can make it work.

Hi Cliff,
I think you have the idea.First you have got to start together at a fixed point ie a directional position which you can relate to.A good idea is to determine North /South /East /West ie the direction of ukes ukemi. Do this map ref.from your point of view as Tori.So you would face due North/Uke faces .SouthSelect Migi Gyaku Hamni katatedori..Then proceed from that point.The first three are easy peasy , no. 4. is the awkward one.luck.Cheers, Joe.

mathewjgano
01-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Straightline Shiho Nage is somewhat like Tenkai Kotegaeshi but instead of focusing on the wrist, uke's elbow is on Nage's shoulder and all that is required is to bend your knees, drop straight down while bending a little bit foreward. To talk someone thru it on the computer is hard, to demonstrate is easy.

Very interesting! Thank you! Do the hands get used at all to get aite into position or is this a hands-free way of doing it?

PeterR
01-24-2012, 08:39 PM
Is that a little like Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi? This video is poor quality, but it's the best one I could find on it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9AWy_UuHgM) It's the second waza performed.
Matthew
In Shodokan terminology Shihonage is tenkai kotegaeshi. I am a great fan of the first part of this technique since half way through is a transition point to mai-otoshi. For that to work best you need to be in control of uke's elbow using your arm in addition to control of the wrist. Usually the point of contact is just above tori's own elbow but perhaps (Phil will need to confirm) that all that shifts for his straight-line shihonage is the point of contact to the shoulder.

I find shihonage a very difficult technique to actually apply. When I have seen it successfully applied against a resisting opponent (and by that I mean a randori setting not someone standing there shutting the technique down) tori had to get low without that extra elbow control - it was also done very fast. My excuse is that I am pretty tall but that is my advantage during the transition to mai-otoshi which I have done to great effect. From the same transition point uke is nicely kuzushied to move into either ushiro-ate or pointing to another thread - a choke. Needless to say mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate are my favorite techniques.

mathewjgano
01-25-2012, 12:06 AM
Matthew
In Shodokan terminology Shihonage is tenkai kotegaeshi. I am a great fan of the first part of this technique since half way through is a transition point to mai-otoshi. For that to work best you need to be in control of uke's elbow using your arm in addition to control of the wrist. Usually the point of contact is just above tori's own elbow but perhaps (Phil will need to confirm) that all that shifts for his straight-line shihonage is the point of contact to the shoulder.

I find shihonage a very difficult technique to actually apply. When I have seen it successfully applied against a resisting opponent (and by that I mean a randori setting not someone standing there shutting the technique down) tori had to get low without that extra elbow control - it was also done very fast. My excuse is that I am pretty tall but that is my advantage during the transition to mai-otoshi which I have done to great effect. From the same transition point uke is nicely kuzushied to move into either ushiro-ate or pointing to another thread - a choke. Needless to say mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate are my favorite techniques.

Hi Peter,
It was the straight-line description that reminded me of the Shodokan "shihonage," which I remember as moving aite more or less straight back and down (tori moving slightly to the outside of the wrist being "returned?"). Do you know of a good video that shows it? I googled/youtubed "Tomiki Ryu tenkai kotegaeshi" and "Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi" but that blurry thing was the only one that popped up that had a similar look to what I remember; evereything else was tenkai kote hineri. It doesn't seem to be a very popular technique based on what kept popping up on my google searches, although I thought I saw a couple a few years back when I made similar searches.
At any rate, I remember really liking mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate a lot, I wonder why they stand out so much! :D

PeterR
01-25-2012, 01:28 AM
Hi Peter,
It was the straight-line description that reminded me of the Shodokan "shihonage," which I remember as moving aite more or less straight back and down (tori moving slightly to the outside of the wrist being "returned?"). Do you know of a good video that shows it? I googled/youtubed "Tomiki Ryu tenkai kotegaeshi" and "Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi" but that blurry thing was the only one that popped up that had a similar look to what I remember; evereything else was tenkai kote hineri. It doesn't seem to be a very popular technique based on what kept popping up on my google searches, although I thought I saw a couple a few years back when I made similar searches.
At any rate, I remember really liking mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate a lot, I wonder why they stand out so much! :D

Well I am in China - where they ban facebook and youtube - neither is a great loss but occaisionally inconvenient.

I still get http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10c.html which at least demonstrates the classic form.

Cheers

mathewjgano
01-25-2012, 02:37 AM
Well I am in China - where they ban facebook and youtube - neither is a great loss but occaisionally inconvenient.

I still get http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10c.html which at least demonstrates the classic form.

Cheers
I wasn't sure if you were still there or not. Thank you, Peter! I feel a little dumb: I looked on the page initially, but apparently didn't see the links for the waza.
Would that be considered the omote version? If so, how would the ura look in comparison?
Take care!
Matt

PeterR
01-25-2012, 03:29 AM
I wasn't sure if you were still there or not. Thank you, Peter! I feel a little dumb: I looked on the page initially, but apparently didn't see the links for the waza.
Would that be considered the omote version? If so, how would the ura look in comparison?
Take care!
Matt

Oh wow - what is omote and ura and how do they differ is the subject of a whole new thread. Shodokan terminology does not really deal with the distinction - the closest you come is really tenkai vs non-tenkai. If I was really pressed I would say tenkai kotegaishi is the ura of kotogaishi just as tenkai kotohineri is the ura of koto hineri but I would not be happy. Wrist techniques are classed firstly on how the wrist is grabbed and further variations in the syllabus tend to be based on what type of attack.

Frankly speaking - I consider the omote and ura division more a matter of convenience along the lines of variation 1 and 2. Limiting rather than infoming.

Cliff Judge
01-25-2012, 09:08 AM
Hi Cliff,
I think you have the idea.First you have got to start together at a fixed point ie a directional position which you can relate to.A good idea is to determine North /South /East /West ie the direction of ukes ukemi. Do this map ref.from your point of view as Tori.So you would face due North/Uke faces .SouthSelect Migi Gyaku Hamni katatedori..Then proceed from that point.The first three are easy peasy , no. 4. is the awkward one.luck.Cheers, Joe.

So....the fourth direction involves basically rotating your uke 270 degrees, right?

mathewjgano
01-25-2012, 11:55 AM
Oh wow - what is omote and ura and how do they differ is the subject of a whole new thread. Shodokan terminology does not really deal with the distinction - the closest you come is really tenkai vs non-tenkai. If I was really pressed I would say tenkai kotegaishi is the ura of kotogaishi just as tenkai kotohineri is the ura of koto hineri but I would not be happy. Wrist techniques are classed firstly on how the wrist is grabbed and further variations in the syllabus tend to be based on what type of attack.

Frankly speaking - I consider the omote and ura division more a matter of convenience along the lines of variation 1 and 2. Limiting rather than infoming.

Very interesting! Thank you, Peter! I didn't remember "omote" or "ura" in what I recall from training (little though it was) so I had a feeling it might be something like that.
Thanks again! Hope all is well!
Take care,
Matt

Tom Verhoeven
03-21-2012, 02:17 PM
Hi Cliff,
I think you have the idea.First you have got to start together at a fixed point ie a directional position which you can relate to.A good idea is to determine North /South /East /West ie the direction of ukes ukemi. Do this map ref.from your point of view as Tori.So you would face due North/Uke faces .SouthSelect Migi Gyaku Hamni katatedori..Then proceed from that point.The first three are easy peasy , no. 4. is the awkward one.luck.Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,
I am trying to figure out whether you and me are doing this the same way. But I am hopeless with descriptions of techniques. The startingpoint is a compass (or as Tada sensei always used; a clock). The condition is that all four variations are done static. The way you describe them, the first three sound exactly as the way I would do it. It is the fourth that I do not fully envision. Perhaps it is different from what I do? I go straight in, just before he goes down uke has to move a little bit to keep some of his balance. It does not really involve uke turning or moving a lot. How is this different from what you do or is it the same? Could you help me out here?
Tom

Tom Verhoeven
03-21-2012, 06:47 PM
So....the fourth direction involves basically rotating your uke 270 degrees, right?
Ah, I see, that is what Joe meant !

But... that would involve a flowing movement. Why not start the first three with the same flowing movement?

kind regards,

Tom

sakumeikan
03-22-2012, 10:55 AM
Ah, I see, that is what Joe meant !

But... that would involve a flowing movement. Why not start the first three with the same flowing movement?

kind regards,

Tom

Dear Tom,
You do indeed start all the four movements of Shiho Nage /any other waza by making a flowing movement .Not the flowing tai sabaki [ushiro tenkan]movement related to no 4 in the shiho nage .The difference is that in each case tori has to acquire a flowing tai sabaki [depending on what you want to do ]] in executing each waza.The forms may change , but the principles remain the same.Its all about Where /When ?How.
Where =Position of Tori in relation to Uke.When =timing[Early /Late/Mutual. How=what you decide to do in relation to the aforementioned and in relation to how your Uke attacks/responds.
Cheers, Joe.

Tom Verhoeven
03-22-2012, 01:37 PM
Dear Tom,
You do indeed start all the four movements of Shiho Nage /any other waza by making a flowing movement .Not the flowing tai sabaki [ushiro tenkan]movement related to no 4 in the shiho nage .The difference is that in each case tori has to acquire a flowing tai sabaki [depending on what you want to do ]] in executing each waza.The forms may change , but the principles remain the same.Its all about Where /When ?How.
Where =Position of Tori in relation to Uke.When =timing[Early /Late/Mutual. How=what you decide to do in relation to the aforementioned and in relation to how your Uke attacks/responds.
Cheers, Joe.
Hello Joe,
Thanks for responding so quick.
I could not agree more with you. It can be said of any technique in Aikido. But I still am in doubt if I am drawing a correct image of the way you do this. Has nothing to do with your effort, am just not good with descriptions. Just set up a new greenhouse. First thing I did was to toss away the description. Kept the drawing. Had no problem at all setting the thing up. Had a look at the description afterwards and still did not understand it.
Can it be found on youtube?. Otherwise you 'll just have to show me sometime :)
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom

phitruong
03-22-2012, 02:03 PM
always curious about the 4 directions of shihonage. sure, shi is 4, but why folks think that's the throw actually has 4 directions? in my language, which was heavily influenced by chinese, often four-direction means differently. for example, if i said i have traveled to 4 corners of the world, then it meant i have gone around the world. i have always thought shihonage is "around the world" throw, i.e. you spin in circle. am i mistaken?

robin_jet_alt
03-22-2012, 03:43 PM
always curious about the 4 directions of shihonage. sure, shi is 4, but why folks think that's the throw actually has 4 directions? in my language, which was heavily influenced by chinese, often four-direction means differently. for example, if i said i have traveled to 4 corners of the world, then it meant i have gone around the world. i have always thought shihonage is "around the world" throw, i.e. you spin in circle. am i mistaken?

I agree. I think it means it can be done in essentially any direction.

Tom Verhoeven
03-22-2012, 05:52 PM
always curious about the 4 directions of shihonage. sure, shi is 4, but why folks think that's the throw actually has 4 directions? in my language, which was heavily influenced by chinese, often four-direction means differently. for example, if i said i have traveled to 4 corners of the world, then it meant i have gone around the world. i have always thought shihonage is "around the world" throw, i.e. you spin in circle. am i mistaken?

Hello Phi,
I agree. And I like the translation into around-the world-throw a lot. In Aikido the whole idea of shiho nage is that you can throw or pin down your partner in every possible direction. That makes it an ideal technique in case a second opponent shows up; you can place or throw partner 1 between yourself and partner 2.

I would not be surprised if the reason that Joe emphasized flow in his explanation has a lot to do with that.

In teaching the technique to beginners though, I first let them practice two directions - in many dojo this would be called omote and ura. Once they understand that, I introduce the idea of four directions. And the easiest way to understand that in my experience is to keep it simple. They start four times in the same position and from that static situation the object is to move in four directions and to throw in four directions. Once they have got that everything starts to move, nage, uke, even the four directions are no longer static, they change into eight directions, in all directions. So it looks like you are spinning in a circle.

You are not mistaken at all, you are right. For me, I was not discussing technique as such, but more the didactics of it.

Kind regards,
Tom

Rob Watson
03-22-2012, 07:17 PM
There is a vid out there of M. Saito showing explicitly shiho nage with throws in each of the four directions. I think it is on one of the Lost Seminars DVDs.

Maarten De Queecker
03-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Shiho Nage is my favourite technique. Mainly because I'm only 1m70 tall and light on my feet.

One thing I've been thinking about though: why do most people even high ranking teachers, execute it so badly? I see a lot of people lifting Uke's arm above uke's shoulder line, or even above or behind tori's head. That will work on 99% of all aikidoka because most of us are "programmed" to react in the "correct" way (read: they're being overly compliant). On beginners, though, it suddenly doesn't work anymore: they keep making cute pirouettes because it's the natural way to react if you don't know anything about aikido.
I've spent some time looking into that and noticed that a lot of people tend to loosen the initial extention and thus restabilize uke, allowing uke to pretty easily drag tori to the ground. Another thing is that people can easily do pirouettes if you lift Uke's arm above their shoulders. Keep their arm on that level or slightly below it, while keeping the extention, and you're set. These two mistakes are very closely related, and one often leads to another.

This does make Shiho Nage a bit more dangerous than most of us would like, though, especially with a slower/older/stiffer uke..

I find that shiho nage is a lot like ikkyo in the way that it looks super easy but is pretty hard if you want apply it correctly.

bothhandsclapping
03-30-2012, 11:06 PM
After many, many years of practice, I have concluded that beginner ukes don't pirouette 'out of a shiho-age' because it's any kind of natural response, but rather that they see the technique demonstrated as having some turning motion, and they feel awkward just standing there ... they just start turning in any direction.

My recommendation ... do not base a technique solely on how well you can do it on someone who is sincerely trying to do the right thing, but just doesn't know what that thing is..

Maarten De Queecker
03-31-2012, 01:28 PM
After many, many years of practice, I have concluded that beginner ukes don't pirouette 'out of a shiho-age' because it's any kind of natural response, but rather that they see the technique demonstrated as having some turning motion, and they feel awkward just standing there ... they just start turning in any direction.

My recommendation ... do not base a technique solely on how well you can do it on someone who is sincerely trying to do the right thing, but just doesn't know what that thing is..

Then my question is: why would anyone remain standing there? It doesn't make any sense that uke stops attacking after the first blow. AFAIK, the natural reaction to any kind of wrist or elbow lock (which shiho nage is during its initial stages) is to either resist or to get out. I'm either positioning myself to roll out of a throw safely, or positioning myself to be able to reverse the roles if nage's technique is unable to keep me unbalanced throughout its course.

I've tried shiho nage on people who've never seen it before and they too pirouetted out of it if I didn't apply it correctly (and they generally endangered themselves when I did do it well). It's the same thing with ikkyo: apply it to someone who hasn't experienced or seen it before and they will turn their backs towards you in an attempt to lessen the lock and/or pain if you don't immediately take them to the ground. Same case with sankyo as well. I'd even go as far as saying that a lot of more experienced people, including yudansha, tend to turn their back on nage in case of ikkyo. It's really a perfectly natural way of reacting when your elbow is being bent like that.

This is why training with absolute beginners is so enlightening: they aren't conditioned yet. They react as their body tells them to, ie. less pain = good, even if that ends up putting them in more vulnerable positions.

Then again, teaching people to be good ukes is way more difficult than teaching them to be good nages. I find that being a good uke takes a lot more concentration and physical fitness than being a good nage. You have to be able to react very quickly from time to time.

PeterR
03-31-2012, 11:04 PM
I can not remember a beginner ever pirouetting out of my shihonage. I wonder what the difference is between how I do it and when it does happen. Perhaps it is the elbow control that is crucial to the technique.

Rupert Atkinson
04-02-2012, 04:00 AM
Beginners have to develop a strong grip that is coming from center, not from shoulders. Such development can be done i.e. with a lot of bokken/ jo practice. Of course always there will be somebody very strong that will be able to make you work hard, but that is a point -- there is no sense to practice always with complaisant attacker.

Without such basic mechanics, where students understand very clearly each stage of technique, and can reproduce it at their will, there is no point to go further.

Introducing Ki-like concepts only lead to distortion and watering down aikido.

Spot on. And not only for beginners - it's for everyone. Never stray too far from the basics as the further you go the further you get nowhere.

Also, shiho-nage literally 'seems' to mean 4 directions to Westerners but in Japanese, shiho is more like saying, NSEW - all directions of the compass. It means you should be able to throw uke anywhere. Therefore, all talk of this direction and that direction adding up to a total of four is just made-up bunk. No harm done though, but the more directions the better. Best to stick with the basics though.

And I also agree with Peter - behind every good shiho-nage is a good mae-othoshi or ude kime-nage (depending upon your school's terminology).

roadtoad
06-20-2012, 07:36 PM
only those from the old azuma air base, Iwama style, and, under osensei's idea, which kissomaru did for a while....in katadori shihonage ura, uke's hand goes only down, never rises, from the moment he grabs you, until he's pinned.
in order to accomplish that, you have to do two, of what are today called, 'tenkans.' The 'never rises' and two tenkans was also true for kotrgaeshi.
No one does it that way any more, not even the 3rd dosho, Saito never could. But, it was osensei's idea to do so.