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Jim Sorrentino
12-02-2011, 02:49 PM
With all the the B.S. that has been slung, by the Japanese Shihans about the training and History I stand firm that there is a common good in hearing confirmed dates, and who's who.

[Sigh.] Please fill in the blanks --- unless your training history is off-limits.

Dan Harden began his study of the _____ line of Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu in _____ [date]. He practiced for ____ years as a student of _____-sensei, and was awarded the rank of ____. He also practices Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu under Phil Relnick-sensei. Dan has practiced this koryu since _____ [date], and holds the rank of ____ in this art. Other martial arts Dan has studied include ______, ______, and ______.

Back to work peeling the scales from the underbelly of the Mortgage Meltdown dragon ----

Jim

Chris Li
12-02-2011, 02:59 PM
[Sigh.] Please fill in the blanks --- unless your training history is off-limits.

Dan Harden began his study of the _____ line of Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu in _____ [date]. He practiced for ____ years as a student of _____-sensei, and was awarded the rank of ____. He also practices Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu under Phil Relnick-sensei. Dan has practiced this koryu since _____ [date], and holds the rank of ____ in this art. Other martial arts Dan has studied include ______, ______, and ______.

Back to work peeling the scales from the underbelly of the Mortgage Meltdown dragon ----

Jim

Hey Jimmy, it's been a while. The difference is that there really is no obligation on anyone to reveal their training history publicly if they don't want to. Dan never made any particular secret of his training history to me.

OTOH - once you put something out publicly on your website, interviews and books (which are for sale), then you open yourself to public scrutiny. In Saotome's case I really don't think that it's a big deal, I'm perfectly fine with what George wrote about memory. But why not correct the dates if we can?

Anyway, my original point was that facts get skewed, even when there is no real malicious or egotistical intent. Just think how bad it might get if there were people around who actually did have malicious or egotistical intent? Lucky there are none of those in Aikido ;) .

Best,

Chris

DH
12-02-2011, 03:11 PM
[Sigh.] Please fill in the blanks --- unless your training history is off-limits.

Dan Harden began his study of the _____ line of Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu in _____ [date]. He practiced for ____ years as a student of _____-sensei, and was awarded the rank of ____. He also practices Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu under Phil Relnick-sensei. Dan has practiced this koryu since _____ [date], and holds the rank of ____ in this art. Other martial arts Dan has studied include ______, ______, and ______.

Back to work peeling the scales from the underbelly of the Mortgage Meltdown dragon ----

Jim
Your continuing to bring it up when you know why I don't want to proves once again why my judgement to refuse to teach you was remarkably correct. Even after your years of trying and intervention by a list of teachers here. I told them then that my instincts, in the end, would prove true. Should I name all of them here as well Jimmy. Is this a place you really want to go, seeing how you just love to pick at that wound?
I don't teach an art or represent anyone but myself. Nor have I made statements that were exaggerations or untrue. What I do is outside of the arts with no need for un-related credentials. Most reasonable people have seen the difference. You..have never been one of them.

This is just another bad showing, Jim. Another poor choice on your part. It's a shame really. Thanks for once again proving the value of my assessment of you. Although I was hoping things had changed. Sometimes it really isn't nice to have been right. As I am sure those who advocated on your behalf will take note.
Dan

DH
12-02-2011, 03:25 PM
Hey Jimmy, it's been a while. The difference is that there really is no obligation on anyone to reveal their training history publicly if they don't want to. Dan never made any particular secret of his training history to me.

OTOH - once you put something out publicly on your website, interviews and books (which are for sale), then you open yourself to public scrutiny. In Saotome's case I really don't think that it's a big deal, I'm perfectly fine with what George wrote about memory. But why not correct the dates if we can?

Anyway, my original point was that facts get skewed, even when there is no real malicious or egotistical intent. Just think how bad it might get if there were people around who actually did have malicious or egotistical intent? Lucky there are none of those in Aikido ;) .

Best,

Chris
Well Chris Hundreds of professional teachers here know me. There are Budo people with discretion.

Jim Sorrentino
12-02-2011, 03:30 PM
Your continuing to bring it up when you know why I don't want to proves once again why my judgement to refuse to teach you was remarkably correct. Even after your years of trying and intervention by a list of teachers here. I told them then that my instincts, in the end, would prove true. Should I name all of them here as well Jimmy. Is this a place you really want to go, seeing how you just love to pick at that wound?

Go ahead. As you yourself have stated many times, you are not the only person from whom one may learn "this stuff."

Even if we accept that you "don't teach an art or represent anyone but [your]self," you do an awful lot of that teaching and representing among aikidoka, and you speak authoritatively about the history of the art and the people in it, from the Founder to rank beginners. As I (and others) have pointed out to you in the past, if someone were to walk into a gathering of architects and start criticizing the designs of those gathered, they might respond, "Where did you study? And with whom?" --- even if they agreed with your observations (perhaps, especially if they agreed).

At least I've never prevailed on Stan Pranin or Jun Akiyama to delete my posts or threads. I'm quite content to stand by my writings, even if means that I might have to admit that I was wrong. ;)

Jim

Cliff Judge
12-02-2011, 03:35 PM
Interesting.
Is discussing the veracity of what someone publicly puts out offensive?
If so, why?
Who's training history is or is not off limits and not allowed to be questioned?
I know they tried to pull Stans rank for his publishing the truth about O Sensei and Daito ryu.
Does everyone get equal treatment?
If not, why not?
Dan

I am just saying that I find myself uncomfortable hearing people cross-examine Saotome Sensei's training history in public like this. I feel kind of like its a family matter, and not for public dissection.

Now I've gone after a cherished myth or two on this forum in the past couple of years and I have mostly likely offended some people. But I recognize that that's bad manners, nothing ironic about it.

Jim Sorrentino
12-02-2011, 03:40 PM
Hey Jimmy, it's been a while. The difference is that there really is no obligation on anyone to reveal their training history publicly if they don't want to. Dan never made any particular secret of his training history to me.

OTOH - once you put something out publicly on your website, interviews and books (which are for sale), then you open yourself to public scrutiny. In Saotome's case I really don't think that it's a big deal, I'm perfectly fine with what George wrote about memory. But why not correct the dates if we can?

Anyway, my original point was that facts get skewed, even when there is no real malicious or egotistical intent. Just think how bad it might get if there were people around who actually did have malicious or egotistical intent? Lucky there are none of those in Aikido ;) .

Best,

Chris

Hi Chris,

I agree that there is no obligation to reveal one's training history. I also agree with George's recent post about memory. I further agree with you that Saotome-sensei, with his books and other publications, opens himself to this sort of scrutiny. But I also believe that if someone like Dan offers criticism of other people's training, and holds himself out as having a way to fix the problems which he perceives, then he should accept those inquiries about his training history, rather than dismiss them as somehow "rude." Like peer review in academia, it comes with the territory.

Congratulations on both your dojo and your family, by the way! If you're ever in the DC area, please let me know.

Jim

Chris Li
12-02-2011, 03:52 PM
Hi Chris,

I agree that there is no obligation to reveal one's training history. I also agree with George's recent post about memory. I further agree with you that Saotome-sensei, with his books and other publications, opens himself to this sort of scrutiny. But I also believe that if someone like Dan offers criticism of other people's training, and holds himself out as having a way to fix the problems which he perceives, then he should accept those inquiries about his training history, rather than dismiss them as somehow "rude." Like peer review in academia, it comes with the territory.

Congratulations on both your dojo and your family, by the way! If you're ever in the DC area, please let me know.

Jim

I think Dan's peer review comes in person - and that's really the best way, there are plenty of folks with great resume's in Aikido that I wouldn't cross the street to train with.

I'd love to get out to DC, but my wife barely lets me leave the house :) .

Best,

Chris

Marc Abrams
12-02-2011, 04:00 PM
Thread drift for the sole purpose of attacking someone that you do not like violates Jun's rules. Do you have anything constructive to add to this thread Jim?
Marc Abrams

raul rodrigo
12-02-2011, 04:03 PM
How can it be a "family matter" if it's a claim repeatedly made in public?

Jim Sorrentino
12-02-2011, 04:16 PM
Thread drift for the sole purpose of attacking someone that you do not like violates Jun's rules. Do you have anything constructive to add to this thread Jim?
Since when did you become Jun's enforcer? :D

It's neither an attack nor thread drift to point out the inconsistency between Dan's generalization about "the B.S. that has been slung, [sic] by the Japanese Shihans about the training and History [sic]," and his own unwillingness to respond to straightforward questions about his own training.

Jim

Jim Sorrentino
12-02-2011, 04:26 PM
I think Dan's peer review comes in person - and that's really the best way, there are plenty of folks with great resume's in Aikido that I wouldn't cross the street to train with.
I agree with you on both points! But as we know, Dan does not hold open seminars, so those of us who are not allowed past the velvet rope to the action have to rely on mere words.

See you on the mat eventually --- in Hawaii, I hope!

Jim

Chris Li
12-02-2011, 04:30 PM
I agree with you on both points! But as we know, Dan does not hold open seminars, so those of us who are not allowed past the velvet rope to the action have to rely on mere words.

See you on the mat eventually --- in Hawaii, I hope!

Jim

It's always worth the trip to Hawaii!

They're "closed" in that pre-registration is required. I don't think that I've ever heard of him turning down someone who asked nicely. We've held four workshops out here and there really is/was no vetting process (if he let's me in, he'll let in just about anybody!). He does limit the number though, to allow enough time for hands on training.

Best,

Chris

kewms
12-02-2011, 04:47 PM
I think Dan's peer review comes in person - and that's really the best way, there are plenty of folks with great resume's in Aikido that I wouldn't cross the street to train with.

As does Saotome Sensei's, and as do the "resumes" of most of the people mentioned in this and similar threads.

There's a tenured full professor at MIT -- unless he's retired since I was there -- who doesn't have a PhD. He invented a discipline, so there really wasn't anyone qualified to sit on his thesis committee. Which is more relevant to any discussion of his expertise? The fact that he invented a discipline, or his lack of a PhD?

Teasing out the details of who trained where and when is useful if you're trying to figure out where particular bits of knowledge came from, or why other bits are visible in one group's aikido but not in another's. It's not useful at all if you're trying to decide what an individual can or can't actually do. For that, you need to get on the mat with them.

Katherine

kewms
12-02-2011, 08:03 PM
My post was originally made -- and intended for -- the thread on Saotome Sensei's training history. It was apparently moved, though not by me.

In any case, I don't know you. Your first post in this thread was, I believe, the first post of yours I have ever seen. I don't know Dan Harden well enough to speak for him, and in any case he is quite able to speak for himself. And I know nothing whatsoever about any dispute you may have with him. So I'm not going to comment.

Katherine

graham christian
12-02-2011, 08:15 PM
I think the rule that kind of irks some. if not many, is don't do to others what you are not willing to experience yourself. (not that you HAVE TO follow it)

Regards.G.

hughrbeyer
12-02-2011, 08:28 PM
Jeez. I'm opposed to deleting threads on principle, but is there any way this can possibly end well? Send Dan a PM. It won't be any less effective, and the rest of us won't have to be bothered.

akiy
12-02-2011, 08:35 PM
Yup. Agreed. I don't see this thread going anywhere positive.

Thread closed.

-- Jun