Aikido taiotoshi?

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[bob_stra]

Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

[Mark Freeman]

Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.

I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.

regards

Mark

[grondahl]

In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws. It can be done from shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, katatedori etc.

[bob_stra]

Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.

I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.

regards

Mark

You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus (http://usja-judo.org/judotape.htm) by Steven Cunningham.

In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video

[bob_stra]

Internet glitch, so can't edit. Anyway, wanted to add - could someone point me to a video or three of any similar Aikido techniques?

[Mark Freeman]

You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus (http://usja-judo.org/judotape.htm) by Steven Cunningham.

In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video

Hi Bob,

not an orthodox naming in aikido as far as I am aware, however the technique seems pretty orthodox to me. I don't see anything unique there apart from the naming.

regards,

Mark

[bob_stra]

Ok, cool. Could you (or someone) post a clip to " technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage" or "In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws".

I'm especially interested to see anything that uses that hand position (one hand on uke's bicep / front deltoid area)

[jss]

I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video
(a) Nope. I would call it a kokyu nage. Of course, 'kokyu nage' is the name for all techniques that don't have a name. :-)
(b) More or less. Not standard, but not unorthodox either. (I have an aikikai background, btw.)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Iwama style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HMFWiF2HOOE

Hand goes around elbow level. Not as high as in the OP clip.

Ed. By Saito M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f1LOIqmNI4

7 min mark

[bob_stra]

Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.

[jss]

Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.
More elbow than biceps, but this one exists as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dor41J26Q14

[bob_stra]

Any where uke is projected to his sides, rather then directly back? Ie: the two directions marked in yellow

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a333/jeffisjeff/taio-1.jpg

[ChrisMoses]

Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

I'd say that's kokyunage. Doesn't look at all like tai otoshi to me at all. Not the angles, not the weight distribution on nage's legs, not the direction uke is projected, different kuzushi, different tsukuri, different kake.

Different. Really different.

[Chuck Clark]

Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.

Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I've been watching some clips of Poslums Sensei and I'd say he is a bit idiosyncratic at giving names to waza.

[bob_stra]

Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.

Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.

Well, I know that and you know that, but most judoka act as if they don't or have forgotten :)

Given the video of Poslum sensei, I thought perhaps there was some modern footage of this kind of throw, assuming its a common aikido (but uncommon judo) variant. That may be a bad assumption, though

[Janet Rosen]

Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

Joel Posluns was the dojocho of San Francisco Aikikai until about ?7 or 8 years ago? - he would have integrated this into his teaching via the late Kanai Sensei who showed this at seminars at SFA many times.
I never saw it any aikido lineage other than Kanai Sensei.

[CitoMaramba]

In this video Nishio Sensei demonstrates tai-otoshi against a shomen uchi attack. Nishio Sensei had a very extensive judo background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BQFQ5uZ0

Now in this example, Koji Yoshida Sensei, one of Nishio Sensei's senior students, demonstrates tai-otoshi against ryosode-dori attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roY2ab7MI

[ChrisMoses]

In this video Nishio Sensei demonstrates tai-otoshi against a shomen uchi attack. Nishio Sensei had a very extensive judo background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BQFQ5uZ0

Now in this example, Koji Yoshida Sensei, one of Nishio Sensei's senior students, demonstrates tai-otoshi against ryosode-dori attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roY2ab7MI

I'm down with both of those being tai-otoshi. Notice how (like Chuck points out) nage's body drops their weight and this is what effects the throw *over their leg not over the hips/back*. In the video of Nishio sensei, you can clearly see that the majority of his weight in on his left leg, not the one blocking the path of his nage and his weight drops as he bends first the left knee and then (potentially) the right knee. In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).

I like what I've seen of Nishio sensei. Always bummed I never got to feel his waza. :(

[Janet Rosen]

I'm In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).

It is one of a couple of Kanai Sensei's "signature" moves that brought uke around that way and I always felt they carried a very high risk of unhealthily torquing nage's knee inward.

[Abasan]

Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.

[phitruong]

i kinda like this gentleman approach http://www.youtube.com/user/kazeutabudokai#p/u/72/pkatrOtokkE you can go from judo close-up to open further out to aikido sort of distance.

btw, that youtube channel has lots of interesting stuffs

[Janet Rosen]

Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.

I'm sorry, you are wrong. Joel Posluns is doing what he learned from Kanai Sensei of the USAF-ER as tai otoshi.
Here are videos of other Kanai senior students doing variations of the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-8aOyPaHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvzUL7rkmq8
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1105162587713

[Chuck Clark]

This waza being discussed is one of my tokuiwaza in both judo and aikibudo. I actually polished my taiotoshi after some time being helped by George Harris sensei, one of the old hands from the U.S. Air Force SAC judo program and a great world class judoka. He had very long legs and could make this seem to come from nowhere... RIP George Harris.

This is heresy in some circles, but then I've never worried much about that .... real judo and real aiki are the same thing. I'm not talking about IJF sport jacket wrestling. When I was in Tanabe in 1965 I was talking with some old fellows about budo... only one of them remembered Ueshiba (even though there's a statue of him near the train station and the old family home was still standing) and he said, "oh, yes, Ueshiba of 'no touch judo', a great master." I wish I could've got that on tape.

[Kevin Leavitt]

USAF SAC Judo program....ALOT of history there!

[Carsten Möllering]

Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.

In our syllabus this is sumi otoshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OMSuTveCQ-c#t=310s): tori goes down on his knees and blocks knee or foot of uke.

The version shown in this thread as tai otoshi is called kokyu nag at us.

[CitoMaramba]

Another more in-depth look at Nishio Sensei's versionof tai-otoshi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=vQwsmQgmdSg#t=431s
Note how he points out the various opportunities for atemi (which would probably be banned in judo shiai)...

[ryback]

It's a kokyunage variation for sure...

[phitruong]

This is heresy in some circles, but then I've never worried much about that .... real judo and real aiki are the same thing..

that that's blaspheme! bring out the torch and pitch fork! *may i join you in heretics?!! :) *

[Walter Martindale]

snip...
Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.

Honto?
I only ever went to shodan in judo but my sandan sempai, my yondan sensei, and my other sensei, a godan (and Olympic silver medalist, 1964) all included uchimata in koshiwaza - teaching that the upswept leg was insurance if the hips didn't do the job. My three sensei had only one thing in common - long stays in Japan. Respectively they were South African, Irish, and Canadian.
But what did they know..

I think the shortest stay any of them had in Japan, training, was 5 years.

However, I see in Kodokan Judo (Kano, 1994 paperback, p 75) that it discusses reaping the inner thigh with the thigh, but back in the 1970s it was taught to me as a hip throw.

W

[Chuck Clark]

Check out any Kodokan book that talks about basic principles... taiotoshi is always part of the tewaza syllabus and uchimata is ashiwaza. Throws can be done that are good waza and will score ippon, etc., but they are hybrids. Some teachers taught throws the way they wanted and liked to do them and called them by the name in the original go kyo no waza. I have no problem with doing a waza that "works" as long as it follows principle and has no intended harm in it (unless in a drastic defense situation outside the regular training). However, to really understand and pass on the system of Kodokan judo the difference is important. Then you can do either one. Anyone that has ever trained with me knows that I am not one that's shy about "bucking the system"... for a good reason and taking responsibility for it. Just know the difference if you claim to be passing on KDK system. Shiai is not the only reason to study and practice judo.

Best regards and respect for their ability and love of judo to those guys you know. I may have had hands on them and enjoyed the experience.

[Abasan]

I'm sorry, you are wrong. Joel Posluns is doing what he learned from Kanai Sensei of the USAF-ER as tai otoshi.
Here are videos of other Kanai senior students doing variations of the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-8aOyPaHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvzUL7rkmq8
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1105162587713

Hmm ok, i've never studied under Kanai senior students, but where I do they call it sumi/sumotoshi.. Maybe cause we don't speak Japanese and have bastardized everything.... But here's a clip of the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4F8e2-xo4

[Abasan]

In our syllabus this is sumi otoshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OMSuTveCQ-c#t=310s): tori goes down on his knees and blocks knee or foot of uke.

The version shown in this thread as tai otoshi is called kokyu nag at us.

That's a nice vid btw...
Though in our school we call this aikiotoshi but I really can't tell you why.
As for tai otoshi, typically we would call that from an ushiro Ryotedori/tekubitori kokyunage throw to the front.

But i'm the last person to argue about semantics or names so when in Rome...

[Chuck Clark]

If we're going to use names we should follow a pattern. Most Japanese terms are either: descriptive of physical movement, descriptive of intent/timing, or poetic imagery. These most often carry real information. Some "poetic" terms such as kokyunage carry very little information as all waza when done properly could be called kokyunage. Aikiotoshi, for example, carries little information as again, a great number of waza could be called this. One waza in Tomiki's kata groups was called aikinage while other groups often call the same waza iriminage, which again to my mind, both those terms could be used for most waza when done well. Semantics of this nature have a place for discussion but as the post above reads... "when in Rome..." usually works best. It's the quality of the waza not the name that's important.

[Janet Rosen]

Hmm ok, i've never studied under Kanai senior students, but where I do they call it sumi/sumotoshi.. Maybe cause we don't speak Japanese and have bastardized everything.... But here's a clip of the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4F8e2-xo4

Sumiotoshi as I was taught it in USAF dojos is essentially with nage and uke facing each other, nage unbalancing uke to uke's outer rear. The video link above may just be showing a more circular way of getting there.
Kanai Sensei's taiotoshi has nage and uke facing same direction with uke behind nage off to one side, more in the position you might associate with setting up for koshinage. Nage unbalances uke to uke's inner front (as noted by others in this thread, Kanai's version is a forward projection into a roll, unlike the judo version).

I agree with Chuck about terminology and "when in Rome" but I am specifially trying to address the lineage and terminology of the video originally presented. How and why Kanai Sensei came to his version of this I have no idea. But it is what it is.

[Abasan]

Chuck I had hoped you would have gone on to explain why we use the various names but perhaps the person with authority here would be Prof Goldsbury... If he care to pop in that is

Janet. I could have sworn that I saw uke and nage facing each other in the OP's video, but i've been known to assume far too much and know very little. So I can appreciate you establishing your lineage and terminology.

[Janet Rosen]

Janet. I could have sworn that I saw uke and nage facing each other in the OP's video, but i've been known to assume far too much and know very little. So I can appreciate you establishing your lineage and terminology.

Ahmad, you may be right about it in terms of the start/uke's attack (for some reason when I was viewing the video the reception was weird and it was stop-start) - but for the application of technique, it goes the way I described, just as for koshinage.

[David Yap]

Hmm ok, i've never studied under Kanai senior students, but where I do they call it sumi/sumotoshi.. Maybe cause we don't speak Japanese and have bastardized everything.... But here's a clip of the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4F8e2-xo4

Abas,

Sumi otoshi (corner drop) - one of the connections is at about the uke's elbow. Tai otoshi, one of the connections is at about the shoulder. Most otoshi are done with two hands while kokyu nage is mainly single-handed throw. My take.:D

David

[Chuck Clark]

David,

That's a commonly held idea based on very basic level teaching. However, once the principles are understood (not just in your conscious mind, but in the mind/body) and can be repeatedly done well, the principles can be done with one hand, or even without tori's hands as long as the uke has grasped or is touching. The connection that links the two into one is all that's necessary.

Timing comes into it as well, of course. However timing is not just at the first cycle at toimai, but correct timing in relation to the cycles of movement in relation to both participants. Remember, we don't do something to another person, depending on skill/experience level the connection starts way before physical touching of striking or grasping.

Look back in this thread where a description about an encounter with with a senior that can do this is related in the first person experience.

**** apologies... this was in another thread that I read yesterday and may have been on another board. Briefly, a well-known budoka told of his first experience with a very high level teacher and as soon as he grasped him he was "gone", in his words. He then said, "I don't understand... I felt nothing." The teacher then said, "grasp my fingers", and to make this story shorter, he did it again twice in succession and the story teller still "could feel nothing that would cause him to have to fall."

(... and if you think that's difficult, try keying this in while a young Jack Russell puppy is in your lap vying for your attention!!)

Best regards,

[Abasan]

Hi David,

I don't know about that though. I don't like the fact we have to throw using two hands at all. Most times when I see people going for the elbow, they are effectively pulling nage down, not so much as dropping him. When they go for the shoulder it's inadvertently to push him. Seems to me counterintuitive to otoshi's objective ain't it?

And I always thought koshi was more about displacement, that we use the hips more often than not lends itself to the name.

[David Yap]

Hi Clark sensei,

Just like the OP, I was trying to put a name to the technique. I did not delve into the mechanics of the technique. I chose to use the term "connection" as I am of those who did not believe in "no-touch" aikido - no connection no aikido. Having been accused of using karate in aikido techniques, I tend to avoid the use of atemi in my aikido.

I attempted to split hair for a "nage" and a "otoshi". Do you think I need to?

Regards

David

Abas, the two hands application is shifting the center on a horizon plane, sort of like gather the plates over the edge of the table and they'll drop off naturally. What you described is actually muscling/forcing the plates to go down even before they reach the edge. Koshi is using the hips as a fulcrum to move a body. We should do more aiki lab practices.

[Chuck Clark]

Just like the OP, I was trying to put a name to the technique. I did not delve into the mechanics of the technique. I chose to use the term "connection" as I am of those who did not believe in "no-touch" aikido - no connection no aikido. Having been accused of using karate in aikido techniques, I tend to avoid the use of atemi in my aikido.

I attempted to split hair for a "nage" and a "otoshi". Do you think I need to?

David,

Every waza I do is "atemi"... it doesn't just mean to 'hit or strike' someone... in it's broader sense, a definition I heard from a menkyo kaiden in one of the oldest koryu in Japan is: "to cause an affect on aite with your body"... this can be accomplished with kiai (whoa, there's another bag of stuff that's very difficult to understand/define that's often misunderstood), with a tsuki (thrust), a grasp, with your whole body/intent with the aite's hands, an exhalation or inhalation, or to put it succinctly, any way you can affect the other person with your whole being .... in other words, it's not just a punch, kick, chop, hit, noogie, etc. I've been affected strongly in very strong randori by: a wink, a smile, a shift of posture, etc. It doesn't have to be fast, hard, muscularly strong... it has to be an unexpected effective connection that causes you to commit to a cycle of recovery that doesn't affect the other side of the connection in a way that takes the sente (the lead)... it can be demonstrated way easier than it can be explained in words or letters on a screen. By the way, "using karate in aikido techniques" is not a bad thing... if it works. Of course that depends on whose idea of "a i k i d o" that you're using as your measure. I may be the wrong person to listen to .... :- )

Oh yeah, and I absolutely don't have any idea of what "I attempted to split hair for a "nage" and a "otoshi" means... If it's an important question of theory, etc. expand the question with more information and I'll try to figure it out and answer. (I like many of your posts, by the way. I haven't posted much for quite awhile... I've been doing this since budo forums began... )

Best regards,

[David Yap]

Oh yeah, and I absolutely don't have any idea of what "I attempted to split hair for a "nage" and a "otoshi" means... If it's an important question of theory, etc. expand the question with more information and I'll try to figure it out and answer. (I like many of your posts, by the way. I haven't posted much for quite awhile... I've been doing this since budo forums began... )

Clark sensei.

Firstly, I was referring to the physical atemi. I agree with you on the spiritual (mental) atemi.

What I meant by splitting hair (sorry if I have used it in the wrong context) was the mechanics for nage (throw) and otoshi (drop) techniques are different. If the difference is insignificant or none at all, then I shouldn't have bother (to "split hair").

Regards

David Y

[Peter Goldsbury]

Chuck I had hoped you would have gone on to explain why we use the various names but perhaps the person with authority here would be Prof Goldsbury... If he care to pop in that is

Janet. I could have sworn that I saw uke and nage facing each other in the OP's video, but i've been known to assume far too much and know very little. So I can appreciate you establishing your lineage and terminology.

Hello,

We used to practise this in the old New England Aikikai dojo and I have seen some Youtube videos of Kanai Shihan doing it. I input 'Mitsunari Kanai' and the first example was from a class in the new dojo, with Dave Halprin taking ukemi. The waza was done from shoumen uchi. The way Kanai Shihan does it I have always called sumi-otoshi, but there are many variations: and uke and tori do not have to be facing the same direction.

Best wishes,

PAG

[Chuck Clark]

David, I was also referring to "physical atemi" because physical atemi and spiritual (mental) atemi are the same thing. Any atemi should be made up of these qualities.

Getting into descriptions of the physical mechanics, along with the intent, kiai, etc. of different waza can be done but it's really time consuming and not appropriate here. Personally, I use very little muscular strength in my waza, it's mostly small activities of evasive entering (at the right time) that cause the aite/uke to do the "heavy lifting", because I never lift due to the fact that we have to stop our feet to lift. I'm in motion, hands, hips, feet, breath, etc. moving in connection with the body of the attacker causing them to tell me what I need to do to fit the waza to their recovery attempts. When done properly, the uke often feels very little force coming from me. They often say "that it feels like it comes from somewhere else..."

Best regards and safe training,

[Peter Goldsbury]

Chuck I had hoped you would have gone on to explain why we use the various names but perhaps the person with authority here would be Prof Goldsbury... If he care to pop in that is



Hello Ahmad,

I see I did not answer your question in my previous post. I have nothing really to add to what Chuck has stated. It is well known that Morihei Ueshiba largely did not use names for waza, but numbers with counters, as in ikkajou, nikajou (一箇条, 二箇条). The names used in the Aikikai were coined by his students, who became teachers, with the result that a rough consensus has more or less developed. It never ceases to amaze me that my Japanese students here in Hiroshima, who are native speakers of the language, have no more clue what, e.g., sumi-otoshi or tai-otoshi means than the Americans (with zero Japanese) who trained with me in the Boston dojo.

Best wishes,

PAG

[Adam Huss]

I was taught a tai otoshi variation of shihonage....basically instead of curling uke's arm back toward them, you keep is straight and pull it across your body with one of your legs locked out, using both the momentum and your leg, a la tai otoshi. I will try to get a video of it next class.

[Abasan]

Prof... Reminds me of a saying that I forgot almost immediately. Oh, he's more white than the whites... Or banana. In this case i'm also reminded of Dave Lowry who is probably more Japanese than half of Japan... But hey somebody's got to do it.

Thanks anyway. I can see why most teachers just lump everything as kokyunage. Easier on the tongue too...