Principles of pinning

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[NagaBaba]

There is a quite amount of techniques in aikido that in the end contain pinning. I’m interested in your opinions what the characteristic of effective pinning in aikido are. Are they the same as in other Budo arts or fighting sports?

Recently I watched in TV how police in different towns evacuated protesters from parks, and sometimes it was needed up to 5 police officers to pin and transport one protester (who of course didn’t want to gladly cooperate). In this light, how you see claims that in aikido you can pin somebody with one finger (or even one hand)….

Again, please no IP/IS nonsens discussion here.

[Abasan]

Most common to rare...

Pain and mechanical leverage.
Dynamic intent (to continue attack on uke's chushin)
Passive reshaping of uke's atari.
Absolute harmonization with uke's energy.

The first two is probably the most understood method and the easiest to be overcome. Depending on uke's determination and complete obstinance to the fact that nage can attack him at will in any pinning position, which basically translates well to police work. Uke here generally disregards the officers ability to trash him during a pin because of potential law suits.

The 2nd two are ideal methods that does not force uke into anything and in fact puts him against himself. Some other arts do get very similar here... I'm thinking certain Silat can lock up even multiple opponents without dynamic intervention... But thenthey don't explain the secret very well.

[Cady Goldfield]

Szczepan, that's two threads you've started so far, today, where you've signed off your initial post with a "none of this nonsense IP/IS discussion." Couldn't you be a bit more polite about it? Just say something like "I'd like to discuss this within the parameters of Doshu's aikido" or modern Aikido.

Thanks!

[NagaBaba]

Szczepan, that's two threads you've started so far, today, where you've signed off your initial post with a "none of this nonsense IP/IS discussion." Couldn't you be a bit more polite about it? Just say something like "I'd like to discuss this within the parameters of Doshu's aikido" or modern Aikido.

Thanks!
This is off topic and should be send as a private message.

[graham christian]

Szczepan, that's two threads you've started so far, today, where you've signed off your initial post with a "none of this nonsense IP/IS discussion." Couldn't you be a bit more polite about it? Just say something like "I'd like to discuss this within the parameters of Doshu's aikido" or modern Aikido.

Thanks!

Oh I don't know. So much said loud and clear in so few words. A lessen to be learned perhaps.

It's a type of Kiai wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.

[NagaBaba]

Most common to rare...

Pain and mechanical leverage.
Dynamic intent (to continue attack on uke's chushin)
Passive reshaping of uke's atari.
Absolute harmonization with uke's energy.

The first two is probably the most understood method and the easiest to be overcome. Depending on uke's determination and complete obstinance to the fact that nage can attack him at will in any pinning position, which basically translates well to police work. Uke here generally disregards the officers ability to trash him during a pin because of potential law suits.

The 2nd two are ideal methods that does not force uke into anything and in fact puts him against himself. Some other arts do get very similar here... I'm thinking certain Silat can lock up even multiple opponents without dynamic intervention... But thenthey don't explain the secret very well.
You listed very high level categories. Could you add specific principles for each of them?

[graham christian]

There is a quite amount of techniques in aikido that in the end contain pinning. I'm interested in your opinions what the characteristic of effective pinning in aikido are. Are they the same as in other Budo arts or fighting sports?

Recently I watched in TV how police in different towns evacuated protesters from parks, and sometimes it was needed up to 5 police officers to pin and transport one protester (who of course didn't want to gladly cooperate). In this light, how you see claims that in aikido you can pin somebody with one finger (or even one hand)….

Again, please no IP/IS nonsens discussion here.

Basically I would say they share a lot with other arts ways of pinning. Aikido can focus more on the energy though.

I don't need t'v' to see such things as you mention but we most remeber something here. Practice, refinement, more practice, more refinement, a process. You could say that first when learning pins it's the how to's and practice but what does it show? It shows it's possible.

Then when you come across a more uncooperative person and find you need to improve you then have to practice more and refine it more, and on and on. Until you may become an expert at pinning, a master at pinning where it doesn't matter how uncooperative the opponent is. It's all a process and the same in any walk of life.

So someone in Aikido who is that good could make it look easy obviously.

Your final question on one finger, as per Tohei maybe in the old american documentary. Well you would have to lower your parameters on the thread for that one now wouldn't you. It's not something the average joe can do and would venture into the deeper Ki aspects at least or even into the field of pressure points in another art maybe.

Regards.G.

[NagaBaba]

Graham,
I'm expecting here very technical discussion, not only some very high level divagations.
Lets start with goals to direct discussion in right directions. Once the goals are defined we can establich the right training methods to achieve these goals.

What are the goals of pinning in aikido?

[SeiserL]

Drill the shoulder into the mat.

[Mary Eastland]

The goal of pinning is to extend in a relaxed manner so uke can not get up. Uke should feel unable to move because they can't find the rest of their body to get up with.

[Eric in Denver]

What are the goals of pinning in aikido?

One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.

[Dazzler]

One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.

THOSE ARE INTERNAL...I INSIST THIS POST BE BANNED !!:eek:

although I admit to thinking the same....:)

[Tim Ruijs]

THOSE ARE INTERNAL...I INSIST THIS POST BE BANNED !!:eek:

although I admit to thinking the same....:)

They can become external if pushed far enough ;)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[hughrbeyer]

Uke should feel unable to move because they can't find the rest of their body to get up with.

Nice description.

[Mark Freeman]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

42;)

[ChrisHein]

Aikido pins are not very secure from the physical/mechanical standpoint. That is to say, using only your body to apply an Aikido style pin is not very effective. However if you add the addition of a weapon, the pins have a very high level of security.

Aikido pins are of the type where one can easily apply the pin and still hold a weapon. Further the pins found in Aikido do a very good job of keeping the person you are pinning from using any potential weapons they may have. Further, Aikido pins are done in a way that allows nage to leave the pin rather quickly. Which is of paramount importance if one is facing multiple attackers.

While Aikido pins do lack the physical control found in many unarmed grappling styles, they do offer many advantages that wouldn't be found in their unarmed grappling counterpart: ability to control and use your weapon, ability to keep the person you are pinning from using their weapons while they are in your pin, and ease of escape for nage if something changes.

[Basia Halliop]

Recently I watched in TV how police in different towns evacuated protesters from parks, and sometimes it was needed up to 5 police officers to pin and transport one protester (who of course didn't want to gladly cooperate)

I don't have a very deep understanding of this but it's such an interesting discussion I'll join anyway :).

I haven't worked as a police officer, but I wonder if it's partly because they will be blamed if they injure people, and people under arrest even when pinned often keep struggling against the pins in ways that will easily injure themselves? Either because the person arrested consciously decides they are willing to get injured, or because (from lack of experience or from adrenaline) they don't realize they're going to be injured, or because they are in a kind of animalistic state of mind where they respond to pain or to being 'trapped' by fighting harder?

With more police it looks like they can overwhelm them so entirely that they can't even move enough to struggle.

So I don't know, if my theory is right, does that mean if the police weren't concerned about injury, does that mean the people could get away if there were fewer officers? Or does it 'just' mean that they would likely end up injured but they still couldn't escape? Or maybe even one police officer could do it safely most of the time, but not 100% of the time, and there's no reason not be more sure and add more police since they're there?

Or is it because a person being arrested usually doesn't give a committed attack :) (half joking, but maybe not entirely - it does sees different to try to pin someone who's just standing there).

[graham christian]

Graham,
I'm expecting here very technical discussion, not only some very high level divagations.
Lets start with goals to direct discussion in right directions. Once the goals are defined we can establich the right training methods to achieve these goals.

What are the goals of pinning in aikido?

O.k. The goals pretty obvious isn't it? To immobilize.

Regards.G.

[Mario Tobias]

for the ikkyo pin, as long as the palm is upturned (facing opposite the mat) it is gravity that's preventing uke from getting up. even with minimal contact (eg tegatana cutting ukes inside elbow, no 2 hands grabbing) uke cant get up. you need to prevent uke to turn his palm down.

in order to prevent uke from sliding away, the pin is also just slightly above 90 degrees with a slight bent in uke's elbow, the arm shouldnt totally be straight. one knee in the rib cage or shoulder pocket and the other in the arm.

If you get all the above details right I think you can use one or 2 fingers pushing in ukes inside elbow for control....I havnt tried it but I think it'll work given that I use only one tegatana, again if all the above criteria are met since you only help to make the conditions ripe for gravity to work its wonders. You as nage are only a small part in the pin.

For the other pins, it is more about uke damaging himself more if he tries to look for a release. case in point is the sankyo where nage makes a standing sankyo, uke tries to approach nage but damages himself more even if nage does nothing. This true for other pins as well.

[mathewjgano]

Mine is a low-level understanding, but when I think of principles of pinning, I think of entering through and adding to some localized hyper-extention until it affects the whole structure as much as possible; while running into an imoveable object (the ground or something extending from it).
Like others with more experience, I also see pinning as a great conditioning tool. In the past, good pins have corrected musculoskeletal problems, making me much more flexible; with greater range of motion and power delivery. Good pins and throws seem to have a way of showing me where my tension is located, helping my ukemi in general.
My tuppence.
Take care,
Matt

[Mario Tobias]

...... In this light, how you see claims that in aikido you can pin somebody with one finger (or even one hand)….

Again, please no IP/IS nonsens discussion here.

I would'nt be surprised by this. The one finger I saw on youtube was tohei sensei pinning a person the finger pinning the persons temple. I havnt tried this but it is not you that is doing the work but gravity, you are only a helper, a part of the equation but not the complete solution.

Another good example is endo sensei. in his ikkyo pin, he doesnt grab anything. he just puts light pressure on the elbow. he even lets uke try to get up and times the contact in putting pressure again to offbalance uke to pin him again. this is concrete example that ukes opponent is not nage but mostly gravity.

[Michael Hackett]

You see multiple police officers trying to subdue a resisting suspect frequently. A part of that was already mentioned in that having additional officers often reduces the chance of the suspect or arresting officer from being injured. A well-trained officer can usually restrain a resisting suspect by himself, but if additional help is present, why take the chance? The comedian Ron White tells a story about being thrown out of a NYC bar one evening by five bouncers. He said he didn't know how many it was going to take to kick his ass, but he knew how many they were going to use.

[mathewjgano]

Mine is a low-level understanding, but when I think of principles of pinning, I think of entering through and adding to some localized hyper-extention until it affects the whole structure as much as possible; while running into an imoveable object (the ground or something extending from it).
Like others with more experience, I also see pinning as a great conditioning tool. In the past, good pins have corrected musculoskeletal problems, making me much more flexible; with greater range of motion and power delivery. Good pins and throws seem to have a way of showing me where my tension is located, helping my ukemi in general.
My tuppence.
Take care,
Matt

I'd like to add: the more spread out "uke's" structure, the less pressure is needed to control it. If they're very hyper/over-extened, it's easier to use "one finger" to pin. My understanding, though, is that many one-finger pins are actually closer to being palm pins with the index finger extended (using "yonkyo knuckle").
I think part of the problem many of the officers have (I'm only guessing; from what I've seen in video) is that they're trying to force a restraining technique too soon and they rely on brute strength to over-power. They often seem to use some immobilization technique and then try to pick them up with it to move them...which seems hard against someone who is "dead-weighting." I would think it better to roll them over, cuff'em, then lift one arm while another officer lifts the other.
Not that this doesn't happen too...just thinking of the few videos I've seen.

[Eric in Denver]

THOSE ARE INTERNAL...I INSIST THIS POST BE BANNED !!:eek:

although I admit to thinking the same....:)

No, that is not internal, it is inside. The two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. It has nothing to do with in yo, fire and water, movement within stillness, or six directions.

I am strictly referring to the physical benefits of a good stretch, something that is found in a variety of Eastern and Western external training methods.

While I have felt IHTBF (It Had to Be Felt), ICDI (I Can't Do It).:p

[Michael Hackett]

Good observation Matthew. Frequently officers will use a leg sweep technique or a single arm takedown (think variation of ikkyo) to move an offender to the ground. What happens too often is that they don't move with the suspect and find they are trying to hold the offender's weight against gravity. The result is the individual will end up face down with his arms underneath himself. That's where it starts to get interesting and dangerous to all. With the hands and arms uncontrolled, the suspect remains a threat and the officer(s) have to get the arms freed and then secured. In most cases that when you see officers pulling on the arms and giving distraction blows. Once the arms are freed and handcuffs applied, the best practice is to roll the individual over to his back, sit him up, and while supporting his upper body, allow him to get his own feet under himself and stand up to be moved under his own power.

By contrast, in aikido practice Nage generally remains in control of at least one limb all the way to the ground, and with that limb can control Uke's movement once down. Check out any of the Robert Koga videos on YouTube. He has adapted classic aikido technique into something much simpler for law enforcement to use successfully.

[SeiserL]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
What song are they dancing to?

[Cady Goldfield]

What song are they dancing to?

Zornik's "Pin Me Down"
Wait - do you know me?
Wait - before you pin me down
Wait - do you know me?
Wait - before you pin me down

Or, maybe Reba McEntire's "Aiki (p) on Loving You."

[mathewjgano]

Good observation Matthew. Frequently officers will use a leg sweep technique or a single arm takedown (think variation of ikkyo) to move an offender to the ground. What happens too often is that they don't move with the suspect and find they are trying to hold the offender's weight against gravity. The result is the individual will end up face down with his arms underneath himself. That's where it starts to get interesting and dangerous to all. With the hands and arms uncontrolled, the suspect remains a threat and the officer(s) have to get the arms freed and then secured. In most cases that when you see officers pulling on the arms and giving distraction blows. Once the arms are freed and handcuffs applied, the best practice is to roll the individual over to his back, sit him up, and while supporting his upper body, allow him to get his own feet under himself and stand up to be moved under his own power.

By contrast, in aikido practice Nage generally remains in control of at least one limb all the way to the ground, and with that limb can control Uke's movement once down. Check out any of the Robert Koga videos on YouTube. He has adapted classic aikido technique into something much simpler for law enforcement to use successfully.

Thank you, Michael! I really enjoyed reading about Robert Koga and checking out a few of his videos! I like his straight-forward approach to waza! I'll have to take a closer look when I have a bit more time: e seems like an interesting man who's lived an interesting life...I always feel a certain facination and connection with Japanese-Americans who were interred at "camp" being that my wife's family shared that experience.
Thanks again!
Take care,
Matt

[jdostie]

Good observation Matthew. Frequently officers will use a leg sweep technique or a single arm takedown (think variation of ikkyo) to move an offender to the ground. What happens too often is that they don't move with the suspect and find they are trying to hold the offender's weight against gravity. The result is the individual will end up face down with his arms underneath himself. That's where it starts to get interesting and dangerous to all. With the hands and arms uncontrolled, the suspect remains a threat and the officer(s) have to get the arms freed and then secured. In most cases that when you see officers pulling on the arms and giving distraction blows. Once the arms are freed and handcuffs applied, the best practice is to roll the individual over to his back, sit him up, and while supporting his upper body, allow him to get his own feet under himself and stand up to be moved under his own power.


Something I have observed when watching "COPS" or other, is the officers have the offender in a position that will 'cause' them to struggle, and be yelling 'stop resisting.' I know that there are certain pins - applied a certain way that I am going to move, even if my mind says comply.

I don't know if it's the adrenaline of the situation, or they just don't recognize it, On the other hand while backing off slightly just might make it easier to comply, it also might give the offender another opportunity. I don't have the answer - just one of those things I think when I watch some of the takedowns...

[Kevin Leavitt]

Good Question.

Goal: My goal, aikido or no aikido is to control the person with minimal effort and maximum efficiency.

This does a couple of things for me. It controls the expenditure of my energy which will most likely be needed for other things and hopefully it reduces the struggle I will have to deal with which reduces my exposure to more stuff. It also works to keep my mind more clear so I can continue making the best decisions possible.

When teaching takedowns and pins to soldiers one thing I have noticed is the over investment of self into the situation. Too much of it...to much emphasis on a particular joint or arm, to much emotional investment in that one limb or person. It also tends to create a feedback loop that the "uke" or non-compliant person gets energy from and thus either continues to fight or escalates.

So, by reducing the proprioceptions and feedback loop the person experiences, the less of a fight I get all the way around.

I could really careless about the ethical concerns for his well being, he is in charge of that based on the decisions he wants to make. However, I want to keep him on the calm and disoriented side of things if I can so his decisions are along the lines that I want them to be which is doing what I say. Ironically, the less investment, input I give him, the more likely he is to go easy..which is a good thing cause it minimizes stuff for me to deal with.

I agree with Chris that when you throw weapons in the mix that the pins we traditionally see in Aikido make much more sense and form and shape tend to be more present.

However, for riot control or crowd control...well there are so many variables going on there that lead to the form and shape of what we see when we have 5 guys taking down one guy.

Alot of it comes from the level of training and skill of the officers involved in the situation and how they have trained collectively together.

It also depends on the goal of the protester as well which in many cases is not to fight back, but to simply be a dead fish or cause active/passive resistance. (Ever try picking up someone that wants to be dead weight?)

I addition within the context of OODA, there is alot going on in the dynamics of crowd control that interfere with the process. Lots of people, at what point are you in the OODA cycle? When do you escalate your use of force and how? It is not so easy I think. Couple that with the level of training of your police officers and you end up with the form and shape you see of 5 guys holding down one.

THey must also consider the level of investment and risk they are facing. It might be better for a couple of guys to takedown a non-compliant person vice one person. It is about the end state and not about the form.

Also officers will tend to hyperfocus under stress on the biggest problem of struggle..hence why the will all dogpile on the one.

IMO, there is alot going on in the dynamics of the situation dealing with crowd control that leads to the form and shape we see there.

Back to the relevancy of AIkido. I find it very relevant if trained properly. My goal and why I train in AIki arts is to reduce feel, feedback, and proprioception. This gives me more time to think and creates space for me to make decisions...and makes things safer for me dealing with a non-compliant person.

I know we don't want to get into an IP/IS conversation here, but I do think it is important to point out that to be honest, I see this as being the important reason for training in Aikido. If I have good structure, if I have the ability to connect and keep my opponent from being able to feed off me, then I can stay deeper within and way ahead of his OODA process and have room to make better decisions about how the "dance" is going down.

So, if I can first create this in my own body and own mind...then I can better control the conditions and shape things the way I want them.

A tall order for sure and one that is very difficult to acheive I think if you look at it this way.

So what you see on the street is very low skill stuff dealing with macro movement and gross motor skills under stress which will most definitlely look different than what we see in an aikido dojo. Hence why stuff like Koga is necessary in order to address the issue from a physical standpoint.

However, what we want to practice is something that is much more refined and might lead to a more skillfull application. Alas, most of us would be better at doing Koga first so we can understand first how to deal with gross movements and the stress of non-compliance prior to spending years wasting our time in a dojo doing crappy stuff that really leads to not much of anything except a mess of confusion.

[Abasan]

I'd like to call attention to some jujitsu pins used by the British army introduced by one of their COs from the world war era. Of pins, they are not exactly standard types, but used for practically immobilizing a prisoner whilst allowing the soldier to remain mobile and dangerous.

One of which I recall implicitly was to have the prisoner climb rope like on a pole or a small tree then have him sit straight down without releasing his leg grip. This pin is excruciating and prevents anyone, absolutely anyone from standing up or releasing themselves. Prolonged periods of enduring this will of course result in permanent disability, which back in those days were the least of their problems I guess.

For the modern world we live in, I guess attacking centerline would be as basic as you could get in terms of principle.

As for those touch/awase type pins... Like I said, obtuse people will get put of it because they'll run away. Most aikido with good ukemi though won't get out of it because they need to ensure the safety if their necks even as they try to escape. Which to me is kind of weird in a way. Since being pin means it's the end of story anyway.

[Michael Hackett]

Joseph, you will rarely see much skill on "Cops". You will occasionally see an officer who is highly skilled, but most often they simply aren't. The average law enforcement officer was trained in his academy how to do a limited number of techniques, with very little training regarding the principles that make the techniques effective, while they are taught the principles of law relating to use of force. After the academy they might get a refresher every few years if they are lucky. As a result, even those who were superb in their basic training lose the skills over the years. By contrast martial artists practice their skills frequently and spend a lot of time developing the underlying principles.

You are also correct in what I would describe as "Mixed Martial Messages" in these situations. It is difficult at best to comply with instructions to surrender your arms when you have several officers placing body weight on your torso for example, and the struggle just goes on. Aikido pins aren't perfect either, but they do provide a foundation for good pins during arrest and control situations.

I still believe that a strong background in aikido would be beneficial to law enforcement officers across the country IF they would be willing to practice their skills. Therein lies the rub. Perishable skills simply deteriorate without practice. That is one of the great benefits of the Koga Method. Koga Sensei's material is the foundation of defensive tactics training in most agencies here in California and the basis for state required training. Simple competence is enough and a great degree of skill or athleticism isn't necessary.....but it has to be practiced. If not, you have interesting TV, but poor police practice.

[ryback]

Drill the shoulder into the mat.

Exactly!From my experience this is the most important part of an imobilization.Make sure that the shoulder is pinned on the mat (on the ground in the case of a real fight) and that it stays there!

[Dazzler]

No, that is not internal, it is inside. The two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. It has nothing to do with in yo, fire and water, movement within stillness, or six directions.

I am strictly referring to the physical benefits of a good stretch, something that is found in a variety of Eastern and Western external training methods.

While I have felt IHTBF (It Had to Be Felt), ICDI (I Can't Do It).:p

And yet, despite your view that Internal and inside are completely different, since the IS people spiral & wind their bodies to stretch and increase performance of fascia could it be possible that this might also be significant in the choice of selected Aikido immobilizations?

One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.

One mans good stretch is another mans internal strength training I guess..and maybe has more to do with in yo (you mentioned it 1st not me ;-) and all the other elements of IS training than is visible at first sight.

Perhaps another example of things hidden in plain sight.

Cheers

D

[NagaBaba]

Exactly!From my experience this is the most important part of an imobilization.Make sure that the shoulder is pinned on the mat (on the ground in the case of a real fight) and that it stays there!

I also like very much simple approach, following principle KISS. However this will be too simplistic, just pin the shoulder. As in aikido there are no rules, attacker can do literally anything to go out of pin. That why I appreciate Michael and Kevin input, because their real life experiences follows similar 'no rules' scenarios. In this context, I like to think that from technical point of view the control of whole body structure is a minimum as opposed to concentrate on only one point of the body.
Real life experience tend to demonstrate that such control by one person can be achieved only with big difficulty and carries out a lot of risk. Nonetheless in aikido it is some kind of standard and it is approached as an easy routine.

But this discussion can give us some partial answer for question HOW.

Now, still we should ask question WHY.

[NagaBaba]

One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.

That surly can be one possible goal, thanks!

[NagaBaba]

The goal of pinning is to extend in a relaxed manner so uke can not get up. Uke should feel unable to move because they can't find the rest of their body to get up with.
Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?

[NagaBaba]

Aikido pins are not very secure from the physical/mechanical standpoint. That is to say, using only your body to apply an Aikido style pin is not very effective. However if you add the addition of a weapon, the pins have a very high level of security.

Aikido pins are of the type where one can easily apply the pin and still hold a weapon. Further the pins found in Aikido do a very good job of keeping the person you are pinning from using any potential weapons they may have. Further, Aikido pins are done in a way that allows nage to leave the pin rather quickly. Which is of paramount importance if one is facing multiple attackers.

While Aikido pins do lack the physical control found in many unarmed grappling styles, they do offer many advantages that wouldn't be found in their unarmed grappling counterpart: ability to control and use your weapon, ability to keep the person you are pinning from using their weapons while they are in your pin, and ease of escape for nage if something changes.

I like very much and appreciate your comment.
I had similar approach, however I realized it is directly from Daito ryu context. Back at that time ppl carried weapons so it was well placed in the actual context.

Not we are doing aikido, and as anyone can see, O sensei introduced a lot of changes to the techniques if compared with Diato ryu. I like to think - context changed, goals changed, so techniques must be adapted, otherwise it becomes nonsense from practical point of view. so I'm asking myself, what is the role of pins in aikido?
However many listed by you characteristics are very valid.

[NagaBaba]

O.k. The goals pretty obvious isn't it? To immobilize.

Regards.G.
I doubt it very much. aikido pins are not structural pins. Read Chris post.

[graham christian]

I also like very much simple approach, following principle KISS. However this will be too simplistic, just pin the shoulder. As in aikido there are no rules, attacker can do literally anything to go out of pin. That why I appreciate Michael and Kevin input, because their real life experiences follows similar 'no rules' scenarios. In this context, I like to think that from technical point of view the control of whole body structure is a minimum as opposed to concentrate on only one point of the body.
Real life experience tend to demonstrate that such control by one person can be achieved only with big difficulty and carries out a lot of risk. Nonetheless in aikido it is some kind of standard and it is approached as an easy routine.

But this discussion can give us some partial answer for question HOW.

Now, still we should ask question WHY.

Look around in real life and you will see the answer to you questions. Both how? and why?

You will see many hows and only one why. So if you want reality look in the right places.

Doormen might be a good place to look where they may be seen pinning someone. I'm sure you can think of other places where this may be a more common occurance and thus see various methods.

The why? I've already given in it's simplicity, to disable. To prevent from moving or escaping.

In Aikido that is the purpose yet in other arts it's may go that step further and the purpose may be to cause submission through pain etc.

I saw not too long ago a thief who was breaking into a car get chased down my road and caught and pinned. Bystanders called the police whilst the apprehended villain, although he couldn't escape or move could actually move his mouth, which of course never stopped ranting and saying how he was going to do him for assault.

Technically I would say the best formula in Aikido is first a control technique followed by a pin. Thus Ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc. Thus to differenciate also between control technique and pin. For example sankyo may be hard to master but once you do it's a good go to control technique in 'live' situations. But once again it's once you are good at it which takes slow methodical practice.

From the ikkyo pin personally I don't rely on extra stretching and prefer just enough stretch but that is not the main thing. The main thing for me is having center over the elbow and it feels like you are sitting center on their arm. This type for me removes all struggle from the person being pinned.

Regards.G.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?

This reminded me of being pinned by Ushiro Sensei a few years ago up at Marc Abrams dojo. Even with Ushiro, I could find my body and could figure out how to struggle to get out of the pin in some small way. However, Ushiro made it very clear from his intent that bad things would happen if I did this. He would play "catch and release" a little with me. that is, he'd pin me down, minimal investment and then when I shifted or moved to try and gain back my structure, he'd re-establish it and drop me back down again. So from my experience with him, it was not so much about that I could not find my body, or continuously move, shift, or struggle to find a way...no it was more about the fact that he was one step ahead of me and would constantly adapt and stay ahead....it was not so static as "I am completely imobilized and cannot move or find my body....I could always find it, just couldn't do much with it when I did find it.

A much different game than a completely external or physical immobilization. So, I can see how Mary would describe it as this as you simply cannot orient yourself in a way to re-establish yourself. it requires a different set of skills, and VERY little investment from the guy pinning as he can walk the edge of "investment" which allows for many more opportunities!

[Mary Eastland]

Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?

When the plane of the shoulder is broken, the elbow is immobilized and the wrist twisted and pressure applied to the hand...the pain and promise of more pain makes the rest of the body seem to go away.

[genin]

The layperson's idea of pinning is that restraint is acheived by using force equal or greater than that of his opponent. That's why it helps for LEOs to be a big guys. They'll probably be stronger than most and if nothing else they can use their weight and mass to acheive submissions, even if they lack martial arts skills.

The point of a pin is to let the person know that resistance will only increase thier pain. If they resist, and that resistance is not met with agony, then the pin is not being performed effectively. The reason LEOs prefer brute force over clean arm pins is because the criminals they apprehend are not well trained uke's. A real uke knows that when nage puts him in a painful pin, further resistance will only mean extreme pain and broken bones. But some out of control crackhead won't know that. Suspects will resist, and they'd even break their own limbs in order to do it. Then you have a police brutality issue on your hands, eventhough it was the criminal's fault for not complying.

[Basia Halliop]

So are there ways of pinning someone where they're in a position where they simply can't exert enough force to resist in any useful way, EVEN if they're willing to injure themselves?

I feel like there are, from my experiences as an uke. Sometimes I just feel like I'm in a position where there's nothing I can brace myself against so as to create any kind of force.... Maybe I just haven't ever tried to test it to the point of injury, but sometimes it doesn't really feel like it's pain or risk of injury that's stopping me from escaping. It feels more like I'm in a position where I'm more than usually weak.

[Michael Hackett]

Actually Roger you are incorrect on most counts here. Law enforcement officers are taught to perform what we call pins as control holds. The purpose is to control the offender's body, usually through a limb, until he can be mechanically restrained with handcuffs or the like and safely taken into custody and confined. The purpose is not to inflict pain, although that may happen just as it does in a dojo. "Police brutality" isn't a legal term. Excessive force is the term used by the courts. The force used by a law enforcement agent only becomes excessive force if it is unreasonable or unnecessary and doesn't hinge on whether the suspect suffers an injury. The determination of whether police application of force was reasonable is based on the "reasonable peace officer" standard which means would a reasonable peace officer use the same level of force under the same circumstances? The calculus involved does not involve reviewing all force options available, but was the actual force used reasonable and necessary.

You stated that officers choose to use brute force and I disagree. They certainly will use all the help available in any force event. Each participant will still be bound by the legal and department rules regarding use of force. A point to remember is that even the most noble of officers will not play fair in a confrontation. Fair is a sporting term and there are no sporting events in a criminal apprehension. The best will use their training appropriately, lawfully and ethically, but it won't necessarily be fair. One officer can restrain a suspect successfully, but why take the chance of an error if other officers are present to assist?

We train differently in the dojo than the cops do, and far more often. What we tend to forget in the dojo setting is that every throw is a notional death and every pin is a destructive incapacitation in theory.

[Janet Rosen]

So are there ways of pinning someone where they're in a position where they simply can't exert enough force to resist in any useful way, EVEN if they're willing to injure themselves?

I feel like there are, from my experiences as an uke. Sometimes I just feel like I'm in a position where there's nothing I can brace myself against so as to create any kind of force.... Maybe I just haven't ever tried to test it to the point of injury, but sometimes it doesn't really feel like it's pain or risk of injury that's stopping me from escaping. It feels more like I'm in a position where I'm more than usually weak.

Yep. There have been times I've told my nage, as I'm tapping, "you are causing me pain so I'm tapping, but you don't actually have me pinned." A good pin might give me wiggle room to test it, but it is immobilization, not pain, that stops me short. A REALLY good pin gives me no desire to even test it.

[Cady Goldfield]

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?

When the plane of the shoulder is broken, the elbow is immobilized and the wrist twisted and pressure applied to the hand...the pain and promise of more pain makes the rest of the body seem to go away.

Isn't pain, and the promise of more of it, a form of violence? How is that blending or harmonizing? What if you had a way of pinning that neutralizes uke's efforts in a way that is painless to him yet subdues him and prevents him from attacking you further?

[genin]

Michael Hackett, Police brutality and excessive force is just a matter of semantics. One thing I've noticed from watching the show Cops is that LEOs love telling the suspect that they are resisting, even when the suspect is not. That way they can induce pain and slam the person's face into the dirtiest oil stain in the parking lot. Obviously, the LEOs are not happy that they had to forcefully restrain the suspect to begin with, so they "rough them up" a little more than required in order to let the suspect know "I don't appreciate you making me have to do this."

If you think about it, a simple clean pin is smooth, painless, and incredibly efficient. But five LEO's jumping on some guy and slamming him down and wrestling and prying back his arms with brute force is probably the least effective way to acheive that result, unless of course you were just trying to make it a rough and violent event in order to teach the suspect a lesson. I suppose it's neither here nor there whether or not this is a widespread practice, however, it does explain why we see this as much as we do.

[Michael Hackett]

Roger, your description from watching "Cops" is all-to-often correct. That was my original thesis on this thread. Most officers receive minimal training in overcoming resistance and then don't practice it often enough to be really competent. That is often why you see several dealing with a single suspect. With well-trained officers you may also see several restraining a single individual, but doing so in a highly competent manner. As for the "stop resisting" orders, you may be right in some cases, and in others you are unable to see and feel the suspect's actions to know if there is any active resistance to be overcome. I'm sure that there are some officers who are intentionally using excessive force - it happens and I've fired a few over the years as well as testifying against them in civil cases. Most do their best to follow the law and behave properly, but the problem is lack of training even with the finest officers. There are a host of reasons for the lack of training, lack of interest; budget limitations; competing training priorities; Fair Labor Standards Act, and others. As you are surely aware, martial arts skills are perishable and must be practiced frequently and consistently.

I am not acting as a police apologist here - on the contrary. I want all of our officers to be well-trained, well-supervised, and well-disciplined and I continue to try and make that happen. I probably scream at the TV louder than most when watching "Cops" and police procedurals.

[jdostie]

Roger, your description from watching "Cops" is all-to-often correct. That was my original thesis on this thread. Most officers receive minimal training in overcoming resistance and then don't practice it often enough to be really competent. That is often why you see several dealing with a single suspect. With well-trained officers you may also see several restraining a single individual, but doing so in a highly competent manner. As for the "stop resisting" orders, you may be right in some cases, and in others you are unable to see and feel the suspect's actions to know if there is any active resistance to be overcome. I'm sure that there are some officers who are intentionally using excessive force - it happens and I've fired a few over the years as well as testifying against them in civil cases. Most do their best to follow the law and behave properly, but the problem is lack of training even with the finest officers. There are a host of reasons for the lack of training, lack of interest; budget limitations; competing training priorities; Fair Labor Standards Act, and others. As you are surely aware, martial arts skills are perishable and must be practiced frequently and consistently.

I am not acting as a police apologist here - on the contrary. I want all of our officers to be well-trained, well-supervised, and well-disciplined and I continue to try and make that happen. I probably scream at the TV louder than most when watching "Cops" and police procedurals.

Often, I see both the officers and the "offender" struggling, it does indeed look like the offender is resisting, but from training in DR and more recently in Aikido, I have a sympathetic viewpoint at times, where I KNOW that the officers are trying to apply a control in a way that causes pain - encouraging the very movement they see as resistance. If that's true - the solution is in the training as you have said - each officer should have lots of experience in both sides of the different pins.

That's how it seems to me in any case...

[genin]

I would think that subduing suspects would literally be the cornerstone of a LEO's training. Without the ability to do that, you'd never be able to effect an arrest....effectively. There was also that incident about a year ago where the cop couldn't subdue a teenage girl and was standing there basically brutalizing her in front of a crowd while she struggled against him. You're telling me he couldn't have just swept her to the ground or put her in a hammerlock or something? But I digress.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Before this thread goes too far into the broader topic of law enforcement, please keep the discussion in this thread explicitly pertinent to aikido. If you wish to move to a discussion with a larger scope, please start a new thread in the Open Discussions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

[jonreading]

To address the slight digression to the use of pins in protective services, I'll say that you need to change your approach from traditional methods. I used to do demos with cops (good judo players, MMA people, experienced officers) and to prove a point I would tangle with them and while they wrestled for an arm bar or hip throw I would secure their side arm, baton, or another item from their practice belt. When I work with people who carry weapons I usually advocate not to get entangled with their opponent. So in this sense I think persons who work in protective services like police, security, national guard, military, etc. need to understand their first priority is to maintain their security, then secure their partner. As far as I am concerned, There is not an excuse that should be considered that allows a suspect to touch a police officer after the officer begins issuing submission commands, certainly one who is armed. Cops have such dangerous jobs its not even funny anymore...

Back to the larger discussion...

Pins are controls; at the end of the day, I ask myself, "am I in control of this person?" This is my defining characteristic of an aikido pin. Seriously, I've had great aikido people grab my hand and stop me from tenkan. Not a traditional pin, but if I cannot move how I want to...

Pins are not necessarily breaks, joint locks, or pressure points, although all of these options are pinning tools. Traditionally, a pin was a pause in combat that shifted a significant advantage to a combatant to apply a killing or debilitating blow to his opponent. This would be a similar tactic to kicking sand, standing with the sun at your back, or any number of combat tactics that are designed to give advantage. Interestingly, several of my historical books tend to imply that it was unusual for combatants to engage in single combat on a battlefield; rather, the focus of single combat was incredibly dangerous on a battlefield with multiple opponents. Japan was sort of odd in this respect and the challenge of single combat gave the Japanese trouble in several foreign wars. As it applies to combat and the arts that study combat, I believe Aikido differs from traditional [koryu] pins because of my intention in pinning my partner.

Sport pins are designed to demonstrate that advantageous pause. Some sports choose body control, others a duration of time of control, others a submission by the opponent. But even the sport pins are designed to show that one player has advantage over another. I believe aikido differs from sport fighting pins because the rules of engagement are different.

Aikido walks the line between these worlds. We tend to adhere to concepts of combat and organized military strategy, but often our training is sport-oriented because we do not act as if we were on the battlefield (must fight ikkyo...without...regard...to atemi...). But that is a problem with our training, not necessarily our pinning.

Now, in response to your comment about the use of force in submitting suspects (in your protesters example). I think we need to respect the social pressure for law enforcement to go to [in some cases] extreme solutions to minimize the risk of injury in subduing persons. Like I said earlier, my tolerance ends after the officer commands the suspect to submit. If the officer never had to touch the suspect, there would be no risk in the officer injuring the suspect... When I bounced the way we took down big brawlers was to dog pile them and smother them to reduce the risk of injury to the person, the patrons around him, or damage to the establishment.

Pins have a consequence for non-compliance, that consequence is often discomfort at best and can be unconsciousness, skeletal injury, muscular injury or nervous system injury. These consequences are often too severe for civilian enforcement groups to entertain so traditional pinning solutions may not work for these groups.

[genin]

Pins have a consequence for non-compliance, that consequence is often discomfort at best and can be unconsciousness, skeletal injury, muscular injury or nervous system injury. These consequences are often too severe for civilian enforcement groups to entertain so traditional pinning solutions may not work for these groups.

Great post Jon. Pins are not used very commonly outside of the dojo, and the reason is what you stated. There's very specific purposes for a pin, but even at that, it comes with an inherent risk of severe injury. If you are concerned about seriously injuring someone, then you wouldn't want to use a pin.

Really, a pin in and of itself doesn't make sense. Why only temporarily restrain your opponent with a pin, when you could deliver a crippling blow or joint lock which would more effectively acheive submission? To me, the pin MUST be partnered with pain, or at least the imminent threat of additional pain. Otherwise it amounts to little more than creating a brief haitus in the conflict, with the oppoenent eagerly waiting for you to release him from the pin, which you would eventually have to do.

[NagaBaba]

Jon and Roger - I read your comments with great interest, thanks!

I like idea to put aikido pins in a larger context to have better perspective on why we doing it in the dojo. Other aspect of pins is that – the moment an attacker is helpless it is possible to assume immobilization. This is also a great opportunity to develop mercy and compassion which are I think some of key goals of aikido practice. Is it really possible in such sterile environment as aikido dojo, where attacker actually helps very much Nage? What conditions we need to make it actually happen?

[genin]

Jon and Roger - I read your comments with great interest, thanks!

I like idea to put aikido pins in a larger context to have better perspective on why we doing it in the dojo. Other aspect of pins is that – the moment an attacker is helpless it is possible to assume immobilization. This is also a great opportunity to develop mercy and compassion which are I think some of key goals of aikido practice. Is it really possible in such sterile environment as aikido dojo, where attacker actually helps very much Nage? What conditions we need to make it actually happen?
I don't fully understand what you mean. Might be the language barrier (no offense). However, this does bring up an interesting concept, which is that "pins" don't necessarily need to be physical. (And I apologize if this thread is meant only to discuss physical pins.)

There's the story of the baby elephant chained to the tree it's whole adolescent life. Once it became an adult and freed from it's chain, it never ventured beyond a 10 foot radius of the tree. The reason being is that emotional shackles are often the hardest to break.

I've heard of freeze moves, which cause the opponent to breifly pause. And while those are more physical in nature, they don't always involve actual contact. But I'd be interested in "mental pins", wherein you use words or some other non-physical means to invade your adversary's mind and render him mentally immobile. But if that topic is beyond the scope of the thread, feel free to ignore it, lol.

[jonreading]

If someone pins me, I know it. The question is will I let my partner know? I think aikido is actually a great platform for applying pins without the discomfort of traditional pins, or the competition of a sport. First, we need to apply a combat filter to discourage non-martial responses that would damage our bodies. Second, we have to concede a successful pin without an obvious control mechanism in place. If we can do both of these things, we have a great environment in which to pins.

Here's the rub... for being a bunch of huggy-feely, harmony-restoring, ego-less, compassionate souls... we can be dishonest and passive-aggressive with the best of them. Also, some of us simply do not possess a combat filter to manage our responses. Bye the way, I've fought enough sankyos to know that I can be one of those passive-aggressive types. You need a good sempai that's willing to put a few on your nose to solve both problems...

I don't know if uke helping nage actually makes a difference here. But honesty does. I think you need an honest uke to feedback when you are in control of her body or what additional corrections are necessary to gain control. If she does that, then I do not think it is relevant whether she is "helping" you or fighting like the dickens to escape. I remember a seminar with Hooker sensei when we were doing tachi dori and Sensei has his uke on the ground and the sword is both addressing uke and applying this terrible nikyo. Uke is tapping and grunting and fighting and tapping and Sensei is just holding the sword. Finally, Sensei says, "let go of the sword." Uke let's go and the technique is over. Sensei says, "you're lying on the ground with my sword at your throat hurting your wrist, whadidya think you were gonna do down there?" Precious. :)

[phitruong]

I remember a seminar with Hooker sensei when we were doing tachi dori and Sensei has his uke on the ground and the sword is both addressing uke and applying this terrible nikyo. Uke is tapping and grunting and fighting and tapping and Sensei is just holding the sword. Finally, Sensei says, "let go of the sword." Uke let's go and the technique is over. Sensei says, "you're lying on the ground with my sword at your throat hurting your wrist, whadidya think you were gonna do down there?" Precious. :)

hey, that sounded like me! i remembered there were Hooker sensei, with a bokken, and me on the floor doing something stupid. also something about not getting up too quickly, because sensei hasn't let me yet, since he still held the sword near my throat.

hey, stop telling folks about my stupid stuffs, since the amount of stupid things i pulled, we would be here discussing them for years! :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Jon, great analysis and perspective on pinning. You bring up some things I had not thought of as concepts. I will probably co-opt some of these in the future.

[jonreading]

Knock yourself out. You get a lot of action with your guys, I'd appreciate any feedback how it works out for you.

[graham christian]

Knock yourself out. You get a lot of action with your guys, I'd appreciate any feedback how it works out for you.

Jon. I said before that there are control techniques and there are pins and thus they are different. Thus pins are disabling things.

However, if you say and look at them as basically controls then I would add this point. I teach that the main aim or indeed first aim of the move is to prevent the other being able to use their other hand or foot or leg against you. That's the main consideration put at the head of the queue.

Now I don't know if this is something widely taught or even if it's something that's dropped out for I don't see it shown on video or emphasized in many discussions.

I take it you teach similar?

Regards.G.

[jonreading]

Well, for me, a pin is a codified control mechanism, a formal and conclusive ending to kata (so to speak). I could, for example, end ikkyo omote by dislocating uke's shoulder as I descend into seiza. However, The kansetsu waza for ikkyo omote is to pin the arm to the ground. In one of my earlier posts I referred to tools of pinning and in similar sense, pins are tools of control. I do not think I would classify pins differently from controls unless the differentiation was in the classification. A pin is an action to employ a tactic of control within a combat strategy. I could see the claim that a pin is an action, while controlling your partner is a larger tactical decision. Remember, the preservation of combatants is a key strategy in aikido, achieved primarily through grappling and striking; I could also decide another strategy which could change my tactical responses.

As for my perspective, I believe in that the resolution of any engagement is at the instant of aiki. If my partner controls my center first, I lose. This is similar to the concept of ichi go ichi e - I have one chance to succeed in the harmony of aiki. Aikido is a collection of tactical actions encompassed in a philosophy that guides our strategic decisions.

At the core of our tactical actions is an understanding of the unity of aiki that must precede engagement. When done properly aiki not only controls the point of contact or even an appendage - it controls your partner's entire body and cognition. For me, the unification of your partner onto your center is the harmony in aikido because your connection allows for empathy and compassion, true feelings of agape. If you do not have this connection then whatever it is you are doing, it is not aikido.

Kansetsu waza is an expression of that control. Arguably, if you control your partner's entire body balance from the beginning, how hard can it be to simply transfer that control into an arm, or a leg, or a neck? I work out with guys who will touch you and put pressure into your back foot, then your front knee, then your right elbow. They can do this because they controlled my body at the point of engagement. In the best aikido I experience my partner has control of me the entire duration of our engagement, not just when she twists my arm, or yanks my neck, or locks my elbow. So it is in this state of aiki that I am either wholly victorious or not. If I need to contest the engagement, then that is proof that I did not achieve victory at the point of aiki and therefore we are fighting.

In a larger sense, I think that this perspective is not necessarily practiced en masse, although I know many people who intellectually understand the concept. I believe this is [one of the reasons] why Gleason sensei [correctly] observed that we are no longer practicing "aiki". I believe this is why Ikeda sensei altered his approach to explaining aiki, I believe this is why Ledyard Sensei advocates a strong focus on aiki before teaching waza. This is why Saotome Sensei is working with other organizations and creating bridges to find better ways to explain what we are doing and why. These are people I respect and I believe are making great strides to bring this education back into aikido here in the US (and I apologize, there are others but I am not as familiar with them).

I am not sure if this answered your questions, but I am working through some of these answers myself.

[matty_mojo911]

Jon

Nice comments and thoughts. I respect anyone who thinks this deeply about Aikido.

I don't 100% agree with everything you say but none-the-less very interesting.

Something I've been doing a bit of is teaching people the bits beyond pinning. That is moving from a pin to a submission. I consider an Aikido pin a point that has a measure of discomfort, even some pain, but if the person resists it makes it worse, and in the dojo, can lead to the tap.

Aikido appears to have somewhat a lack of pins, as they often don't work (when a person puts up a little resistance), the person moves out of it to a new position and the Aikido exponent is left scrambling. I'd like to see teachers concentrating more on a range of alternative pins for your partners reactions.

Or you can forget all that, and be really non-aikido and just go straight for the submission.

[Kevin Leavitt]

The issue I have with most submissions is the level of investment they require in order to obtain the tap. Of course there are some that work with a small level of investment, but most require dominance or control in order to get the tap. In addition, the reliance on pain as a compliance factor which may or may not work.

IMO, it is PRIMARY to have dominance and/or control of the fight, so in a reality, I am looking for other things other than a submission. Dominance and control lead to hand cuffs or other types of immobilization. Other than that...chokes work. I have found no one that cannot be choked. Again though, the dilemma is the level of investment a choke requires.

Not saying these are not good things to explore...just that submissions and chokes and pain compliance are SECONDARY to control.

FWIW, I am a BJJ Brown Belt and teach Military Combatives...so that is where i am coming from as far as perspective as well.

[Michael Neal]

Aikido pins are fairly easy to get out of, if you have someone's left arm pinned to the mat with ikkyo they can switch their hips by swinging their right leg underneath their left and sit through and you will in their guard. Having the arm is not enough to control them. That is if they know what they are doing, for the majority of situations it would probably be sufficient.

My choices for control would would be Kami Shiho Gatame and Kesa Gatame from Judo where you lock your opponents neck and spine to the mat. These work even on seasoned grapplers, the average person would have virtually no chance to escape if it was applied by someone with experience.

I would only use submissions in a very very serious situation where I had to immobilize someone quickly due to weapons or multiple attackers. It could be seen as a disproportionate use of force to choke someone unconscious or snap their arms.

[NagaBaba]

Aikido pins are fairly easy to get out of, if you have someone's left arm pinned to the mat with ikkyo they can switch their hips by swinging their right leg underneath their left and sit through and you will in their guard. Having the arm is not enough to control them. That is if they know what they are doing, for the majority of situations it would probably be sufficient.

My choices for control would would be Kami Shiho Gatame and Kesa Gatame from Judo where you lock your opponents neck and spine to the mat. These work even on seasoned grapplers, the average person would have virtually no chance to escape if it was applied by someone with experience.

I would only use submissions in a very very serious situation where I had to immobilize someone quickly due to weapons or multiple attackers. It could be seen as a disproportionate use of force to choke someone unconscious or snap their arms.

So you suggest simply introduce a techniques from judo to fill up, what you perceive as a gaps in aikido pins? We all know that O sensei was well aware about judo repertoire of techniques having some visits in Kodokan. Being a Budo genius, he would also clearly perceive gaps in aikido pins. How come he didn’t introduce more efficient pinning techniques from judo to replace those deficient from Daito ryu?

May be ultimate efficiency of aikido pins was not his main goal?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

You don't need biomechanical efficience as long you have taken your uke's mind. When being pinned is a state of the mind, any kind of pin works.

[Marc Abrams]

Let's simply start with the Ikkyo pin. You are face down on the mat. The nage has graciously not driven one knee on top of a kidney, or into your floating ribs. The other knee was not driven down on top of your neck, or on top of your elbow. There are a host of other options which would preclude the person from functioning well (if at all) from that point forward. The nage is still free to move, either releasing the person on the ground, or causing pain and injury to the uke who does not truly recognize the dangers of being placed in that position.

Pins done very well can immobilize a person. Even if the person is not fully immobilized, the idea that you are going to fight your way to freedom while being so exposed to injury is simply comical in a Darwinian sense. Pins are simply pauses in time. Imagine waiting 1/2 hour in the Ikkyo pin in the middle of a bar, waiting for the police to arrive. Just as comical as thinking that the pin is an end-all to a situation.

One of my new students has me by about 75lbs and at least 5" in height. Good boxer to boot! I had him in an Ikkyo pin and he decided to test the pin. Every time he moved, I let some part of him know that he was being struck. He decided to move onto his stomach and up (like in wrestling). A simple rear-naked choke finally got across to him the futility of what he was doing.

To me, if you are in a pin and exposed to being genuinely hurt and you insist on thrashing about, Uncle Darwin is smiling down upon you..... The pin is a pause for both sides to take note of the current situation and respond accordingly. The graciousness of the pause should not be mistaken for weakness or strength.

Marc Abrams

[NagaBaba]

The issue I have with most submissions is the level of investment they require in order to obtain the tap. Of course there are some that work with a small level of investment, but most require dominance or control in order to get the tap. In addition, the reliance on pain as a compliance factor which may or may not work.

IMO, it is PRIMARY to have dominance and/or control of the fight, so in a reality, I am looking for other things other than a submission. Dominance and control lead to hand cuffs or other types of immobilization. Other than that...chokes work. I have found no one that cannot be choked. Again though, the dilemma is the level of investment a choke requires.

Not saying these are not good things to explore...just that submissions and chokes and pain compliance are SECONDARY to control.

FWIW, I am a BJJ Brown Belt and teach Military Combatives...so that is where i am coming from as far as perspective as well.

Hi Kevin,
I like you comments about the dominance and chokes. I’m trying to practice chokes as often as possible even if most of aikidoka hate it. In the context of aikido however, not all chokes can be useful, as we want to preserve the mobility of Nage. So I prefer standing or kneeling chokes, where I can move fast in case of other attackers suddenly appear.

I think many aiki bunnies don’t accept word ‘dominance’ in aikido context; however from purely technical point of view you are completely right. No pin, choke or submission is possible without dominance on psychological and/or physical level.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

To me, if you are in a pin and exposed to being genuinely hurt and you insist on thrashing about, Uncle Darwin is smiling down upon you..... The pin is a pause for both sides to take note of the current situation and respond accordingly. The graciousness of the pause should not be mistaken for weakness or strength.

Marc Abrams

Nor with delusion about what one can really do if the pinned fights back.

Do you remember Amdur's story about what he thougt he could do with his vital points striking against his judo friend?

Sometimes Darwin is smiling but sometimes Pavlov is the one who is smiling.

[NagaBaba]

To me, if you are in a pin and exposed to being genuinely hurt and you insist on thrashing about, Uncle Darwin is smiling down upon you..... The pin is a pause for both sides to take note of the current situation and respond accordingly. The graciousness of the pause should not be mistaken for weakness or strength.

Marc Abrams

I’m not sure if you are right. But let assume you are right for a second. Only experienced fighter will recognize the capacity of Nage in such situation. 99.99% the rest of attackers will fight back continuously blinded by rage. So what, you will incapacitate them without mercy? This is a kind of message you will send to the world after 30 years of aikido practice?

[jonreading]

Matt-

Thanks for the comments. I would add to what Kevin is saying with a couple of things....

In application, submissions are really dangerous creatures. The level of investment to pull off a submission can be enough to affect your focus, your movement, or your energy. When you look at MMA work, you can sometimes see how [over] investment in a submission works against the submitter, especially if that combatant expels his energy unsuccessfully or allows his position to be compromised. Second, submission puts you smack in the middle of sport fighting and now you are back to looking for some obvious mechanism to determine your state of control.

Also, I saw a couple of posts about aikido pins not working. First, aikido pins work - proper control over the body will be reflected in a pin. What we are really talking about is that we have trouble successfully pinning our partners using aikido pins. This comes back to my first post about our partners needing to be honest with themselves and applying the proper filter to realize how their bodies would be damaged by non-compliance. For example, my partner has a lot of confidence that I will not dislocate her shoulder when I apply ikkyo pin. If my partner exploits that confidence, she can successfully defend against an ikkyo pin. However, in exploiting my trusts, she is neither being honest with me nor is she understanding the the potential damage her body may incur if I choose to apply the pin more severely. I think the problem lies more with uke and nage not doing things right, rather then the claim aikido doe not have functioning pins.

Pins are reflective of control. When you have partners contesting pins, ultimately your partner is saying, "I don't think you control me." So we need to change that dialogue to more clearly express to our partners that we do, in fact, control them.

And if you ever think the aikido pins are soft, ask a Daito Ryu person to show their pins, which are the parent pins of aikido. I have included a link to some of Kondo Sensei's group doing some ikkajo series work. You'll notice several uncomfortable pins that are all perfectly "aiki":
http://youtu.be/1vA0c56Bxsk

[jonreading]

I'm not sure if you are right. But let assume you are right for a second. Only experienced fighter will recognize the capacity of Nage in such situation. 99.99% the rest of attackers will fight back continuously blinded by rage. So what, you will incapacitate them without mercy? This is a kind of message you will send to the world after 30 years of aikido practice?

You can lead a horse to water... In truth, your partner chooses his path and all we can do is illustrate the consequences. I have told people to leave aikido and pursue sport fighting for almost this exact reason. If you partner truly cannot become educated to the danger of combat, then they represent a danger to themselves and others. As you become better at communicating the fight is over you seek to marginalize the ignorant responses, but they will always be there.

[Marc Abrams]

I'm not sure if you are right. But let assume you are right for a second. Only experienced fighter will recognize the capacity of Nage in such situation. 99.99% the rest of attackers will fight back continuously blinded by rage. So what, you will incapacitate them without mercy? This is a kind of message you will send to the world after 30 years of aikido practice?

Szczepan:

First off, my idea of a fair fight is that I go home safe. What happens to you does not really enter into my concern. I have a right and an obligation to preserve my peace and my ability to share that peaceful space with my friends and loved-ones. I will do whatever is necessary to see to it that that can happen. One of the real drivers moving me toward taking Aikido was that I was a nice guy (at least some people thought so ;) ) until someone tried to pick a fight with me. I would then flip the proverbial switch and would become a dangerous lunatic that had to be pulled off of someone more than once. I looked toward Aikido as a way of developing alternative response sets. Interestingly enough, the only times that things happened after I started Aikido, ended with me walking away with the other person not being hurt, yet knowing he escaped from me really putting a hurting on. From that perspective, the message of my budo is something that I can live with. I am a more settled, happier person, living in a more peaceful world around me. That is reason enough to continue on that path. That being said, I maintain the ability and preserve the right to do whatever is necessary to live my life in peace.

I am not concerned about whether the fighter is experienced and/or smart enough to recognize the full implications of a situation. If I am in a situation, I am simply in it. Mercy and other nice warm fuzzies are dangerous things to try and contemplate while in that moment. So far, I have managed to not take a situation beyond where it needed to go. If someone wants to call that mercy, luck, etc. so be it. That is a luxury done from a safe distance.

I do not take or teach Aikido to teach the world a lesson about some supposed philosophical superiority of our art. Aikido has been a vehicle for me to become more centered and capable of maintaining a more peaceful world around me. I share that opportunity with others as well and allow them to decide for themselves how they want their Aikido to fit into their lives. It has made a positive impact upon all areas of my life. To that I am forever indebted to my teacher and have made the choice to teach full-time as a means of passing on the gifts that my teacher passed on to me.

Marc Abrams

[phitruong]

So what, you will incapacitate them without mercy? This is a kind of message you will send to the world after 30 years of aikido practice?

sometimes you just have to remove stupidity out of the gene pool.

[Marc Abrams]

Nor with delusion about what one can really do if the pinned fights back.

Do you remember Amdur's story about what he thougt he could do with his vital points striking against his judo friend?

Sometimes Darwin is smiling but sometimes Pavlov is the one who is smiling.

Demetrio:

I save the delusional world for my psychology practice. I do not pretend to be invulnerable. Just the opposite is a truer approach. I am vulnerable to being hurt and killed like anybody else. I use the vulnerability as vital information in staying alive. If I could not use the superior position that a pin can provide to my advantage, then I look to create space and time to remain safe. Then again, if I a genuinely concerned about my safety (because of the obvious danger of the attacker ) AND I am lucky enough to be able to gain a tactical advantage in a conflict, I would not be so foolish as to look to pin the person. I look at the pin as a part of our practice. I use the moving the person into the pin and the pin itself as a means of discovering and maintaining awareness as to my other options.

In other words, Darwin and Pavlov dine together frequently :D !

marc abrams

[Marc Abrams]

sometimes you just have to remove stupidity out of the gene pool.

Phil:

Did you have dinner with Uncle Darwin again last night ? ;)

Marc Abrams

[Belt_Up]

Is it really possible in such sterile environment as aikido dojo, where attacker actually helps very much Nage?

I'm trying to practice chokes as often as possible even if most of aikidoka hate it.

I think many aiki bunnies don't accept word ‘dominance' in aikido context

99.99% the rest of attackers will fight back continuously blinded by rage.

I'm seeing constant (and often derogatory) sweeping statements, and little else. If the aikidoka you train with are so utterly and completely useless, perhaps you should find another dojo? Perhaps that would help? :-(

[Michael Neal]

So you suggest simply introduce a techniques from judo to fill up, what you perceive as a gaps in aikido pins? We all know that O sensei was well aware about judo repertoire of techniques having some visits in Kodokan. Being a Budo genius, he would also clearly perceive gaps in aikido pins. How come he didn't introduce more efficient pinning techniques from judo to replace those deficient from Daito ryu?

May be ultimate efficiency of aikido pins was not his main goal?

I guess the Aikido moves were developed to actually break the arm not hold someone down. In combat on the battlefield you would have no reason to try and hold someone or you would be killed by someone else. Like I said the Aikido pins are probably effective on most people, but they probably will not hold an experienced grappler for very long.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Demetrio:

I save the delusional world for my psychology practice.

A very sensible approach.

[Michael Neal]

The issue I have with most submissions is the level of investment they require in order to obtain the tap. Of course there are some that work with a small level of investment, but most require dominance or control in order to get the tap. In addition, the reliance on pain as a compliance factor which may or may not work.

IMO, it is PRIMARY to have dominance and/or control of the fight, so in a reality, I am looking for other things other than a submission. Dominance and control lead to hand cuffs or other types of immobilization. Other than that...chokes work. I have found no one that cannot be choked. Again though, the dilemma is the level of investment a choke requires.

Not saying these are not good things to explore...just that submissions and chokes and pain compliance are SECONDARY to control.

FWIW, I am a BJJ Brown Belt and teach Military Combatives...so that is where i am coming from as far as perspective as well.

Congrats on the bjj brown belt, that is quite an achievement. I just got my blue last weekend but I am now probably one of the worst blue best in the country :)

[NagaBaba]

I'm seeing constant (and often derogatory) sweeping statements, and little else. If the aikidoka you train with are so utterly and completely useless, perhaps you should find another dojo? Perhaps that would help? :-(

"Are you talking to me?? Are you talking to me?????"

:)
[joke explanation]
this is of course quatation from a famous movie [/joke explanation]

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hi Kevin,
I like you comments about the dominance and chokes. I'm trying to practice chokes as often as possible even if most of aikidoka hate it. In the context of aikido however, not all chokes can be useful, as we want to preserve the mobility of Nage. So I prefer standing or kneeling chokes, where I can move fast in case of other attackers suddenly appear.

I think many aiki bunnies don't accept word ‘dominance' in aikido context; however from purely technical point of view you are completely right. No pin, choke or submission is possible without dominance on psychological and/or physical level.

I agree with your assessment. All submissions, chokes etc are all specific to a particular set of conditions. As Martial Artist and budoka, we really should explore the full spectrum of things so we have a decent understanding of what we should use and when.

My comments about the level of committal are something that I think is overlooked in many arts especially grappling arts like judo and BJJ. Conversely, I think Aikidoka don't think enough about these things. Weapons and potential other opponents are a sure game changer to the what you are willing to commit to as far as pins, chokes, and submissions.

As far as the comments on dominance....agreed, it is probably not the most PC way of putting it, but IMO we are in an art were I believe calling it what it is is very important. Call it anything else...then we lose perspective on what it is that we are really doing...IMO.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Aikido pins are fairly easy to get out of, if you have someone's left arm pinned to the mat with ikkyo they can switch their hips by swinging their right leg underneath their left and sit through and you will in their guard. Having the arm is not enough to control them. That is if they know what they are doing, for the majority of situations it would probably be sufficient.

My choices for control would would be Kami Shiho Gatame and Kesa Gatame from Judo where you lock your opponents neck and spine to the mat. These work even on seasoned grapplers, the average person would have virtually no chance to escape if it was applied by someone with experience.

I would only use submissions in a very very serious situation where I had to immobilize someone quickly due to weapons or multiple attackers. It could be seen as a disproportionate use of force to choke someone unconscious or snap their arms.

Both VERY good techniques for pinning for sure Kami Shiho Gatame (the North/South) and Kesa Gatame are two very necessary pins to learn for all Martial Artist. Again though, these are VERY committed pins and you give up alot depending on the circumstances of your situation. Hence why they are not pins that are practiced in Aikido typically.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Let's simply start with the Ikkyo pin. You are face down on the mat. The nage has graciously not driven one knee on top of a kidney, or into your floating ribs. The other knee was not driven down on top of your neck, or on top of your elbow. There are a host of other options which would preclude the person from functioning well (if at all) from that point forward. The nage is still free to move, either releasing the person on the ground, or causing pain and injury to the uke who does not truly recognize the dangers of being placed in that position.

Pins done very well can immobilize a person. Even if the person is not fully immobilized, the idea that you are going to fight your way to freedom while being so exposed to injury is simply comical in a Darwinian sense. Pins are simply pauses in time. Imagine waiting 1/2 hour in the Ikkyo pin in the middle of a bar, waiting for the police to arrive. Just as comical as thinking that the pin is an end-all to a situation.

One of my new students has me by about 75lbs and at least 5" in height. Good boxer to boot! I had him in an Ikkyo pin and he decided to test the pin. Every time he moved, I let some part of him know that he was being struck. He decided to move onto his stomach and up (like in wrestling). A simple rear-naked choke finally got across to him the futility of what he was doing.

To me, if you are in a pin and exposed to being genuinely hurt and you insist on thrashing about, Uncle Darwin is smiling down upon you..... The pin is a pause for both sides to take note of the current situation and respond accordingly. The graciousness of the pause should not be mistaken for weakness or strength.

Marc Abrams

That is the thing in "aikido" pins that is overlooked. The pin in and of itself may not be the BEST way to hold someone down, but it is the other things that go along with it that allow you to keep them down. There is a balance between your level and investment in a pin and the risk...for most of us that is.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I'm not sure if you are right. But let assume you are right for a second. Only experienced fighter will recognize the capacity of Nage in such situation. 99.99% the rest of attackers will fight back continuously blinded by rage. So what, you will incapacitate them without mercy? This is a kind of message you will send to the world after 30 years of aikido practice?

That is a good point!

My personal philosophy...or at least how I reconcile this is ....my "aikido" and spiritual practice, ethics, and so forth are for ME....NOT for Uke. Uke may benefit from them, but then again, if he chooses NOT to there are two possible outcomes.

1. I have the skill necessary to deal with him effectively and protect him from unnecessary harm.
2. I don't have this skill and I have to create a situation in which I can control him and it leads him to greater harm.

I constantly practice to improve myself to increase the chances for #1 to occur. I understand that I may not have that level of skill, and I FORGIVE myself for that. As long as I strive for #1...then I think it is all we can do.

I think as long as your intentions are correct then you are good to go.

I cannot really expect in all situations for Nage to "listen" to my "reason", as you know it just doesn't happen for a multitude of reasons with people hell bent on doing you harm.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I guess the Aikido moves were developed to actually break the arm not hold someone down. In combat on the battlefield you would have no reason to try and hold someone or you would be killed by someone else. Like I said the Aikido pins are probably effective on most people, but they probably will not hold an experienced grappler for very long.

Agreed. However, if you look at the practice of DR they really did take the whole arm breaking to another level. Think about what these guys were looking to do. Minimal investment for maximum gain. So As Marc and a few others have stated well...and you are also saying...the pin is a transitory state until you do something else. Grab a weapon, wait for a buddy, or disarm you opponent. Really a few seconds IMO.

Of course, Aikido, based on DR, essentially co-opted martial process in order to convey the message and explore force continuum to show some very specific things which while important to reality...get lost in translation to the masses.

I have no problems really with my "aikido" pins. That does not mean you cannot struggle or get out...but I do manage to stay ahead of nage's OODA process and dominate my nage so I don't really care if nage "believes" he is pinned or not...I adjust.

Looking at your comments earlier about getting out of aikido pins. I pride myself on doing that. I LOVE being taken down in an ikkyo, pinned and then "hipping" out of it to the guard and rolling you to mount. If Nage is NOT doing things right...AND his level of investment is too great and not appropriate or balanced...I am taking you for a ride by feeding off your input.

I know the ground rules have been set of the IS discussion. I don't want to go there, but to be honest, If I am doing things correctly with correct principles I am able to be there and control nage and not create a feedback loop that he can figure out...AND I can constantly adjust to what he is doing and keep him there.

For me as a military guy, this is very important. I want to be able to control someone effectively without having to invest so much in the way of physical position, weight, or pain. It is why I continue to seek out a better understanding of aiki.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Congrats on the bjj brown belt, that is quite an achievement. I just got my blue last weekend but I am now probably one of the worst blue best in the country :)

And I am right there along with you as one of the worst Brown Belts! I am a pretty good Blue Belt I think, and an okay purple belt. BJJ kinda works that way for most of us!

I'll be back in VA next week, maybe I can make it out to train with you guys at Yamasaki Academy if I have time!

[Michael Neal]

I am sure you are much better than you think you are, you have been training consistently in multiple disciplines for a long time.

My BJJ club closed down last week but I will be moving to another Yamasaki school, either Woodbridge or Leesburg. I would love to meet up with you when you are here.

The reason I say that my rank exceeds my abilities is that I think the blue belt was more of a parting gift from my sensei than a true measure of my skills. But at the same time I respect him and his judgement, I have only been training BJJ for 1 year after 5 years absence from Judo.

I am thinking about trying to learn some internal skills too, do you know anyone who teaches or practices it around here?

[Michael Neal]

well on the subject of pinning

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/12/05/robbing-ultimate-fighting-expert-proves-to-be-bad-decision/

[Kevin Leavitt]

Michael,

http://www.kravworks.com/bioabout_us.html

Effie (Asher Willner) is a great guy. I didn't even knew they existed until June of this year. Long story, but I trained there this summer for a few weeks and if I were still in the area...these are the guys I would hook up with. Wonderful attitude and spirit. Awesome environment. I am going there next week probably when I am in town.

As far as IS stuff. Hunter Lonsberry is a good guy for you to hook up with. I think Dan Harden will be in Baltimore soon...I'd try and get with him by all means as that will get you hooked into the NOVA IS community. As you know from following the threads though, IS training is more than going to a few seminars. However, I would definitely go to one so you can experience what the guys are talking about...at least then you get to understand what all the fuss is about and put you in a better, more informed position to decide how it should be worked into your own training regime. ( I need to do more than I am doing).

[Michael Neal]

cool, I will try to meet up with you.

I am a firm believer in IS, this is why I am still drawn to the aiki arts. I often use kokyu tanden ho in Judo and BJJ, sometimes I accidentally get it right and it seems like pure magic, Now I wish I could do it more often and on purpose.

Kokyu tanden ho is the single most useful thing I have learned in all my martial arts training, thanks Jim Sorrentino!

[Kevin Leavitt]

yea I agree Kokyu is awesome. I love playing with it on my knees in the guard. I will stick my arms out and let me fellow BJJer mess around with my arms while I connect with them and find their center. Sounds like you are having a very similar experience that I did when taking up BJJ. I need to get better at the Aiki stuff though...not enough hours in the day to train everything though!

[Michael Neal]

it's especially useful for me when we both are on our knees wrestling for top position

[matty_mojo911]

Kevin, Michael - I happen to be a BJJ Purple Belt and feel like I'm shit. A BJJ Brown belt seems impossible to me so well done. If you guys are ever in New Zealand come and train.

The issue of control that was raised is of course very valid, control is key, then from there you can do what you wish.

I think that some of the people who are NOT experienced in grappling missunderstand "control" from the BJJ perspective, it isn't about squashing your partner and then "muntering" them with some technique until they finally tap out (though you can do that of course) it is about being that much better than them that no matter what they do you are one step ahead, or able to counter anything they do. And of course this can be achieved from underneath as well - though it requires a somewhat different skill set.

In BJJ you can pin someone - but it tends not to be with a "arm hold" like Ikiyo, or the like, but more by body position.

I also think someones earlier comment about the problem with submissions being that you have to invest too much into them is a little incorrect (I think he cited MMA fights). If the adrenalin is pumping it is quite common to go for a submission, even though the outside observer knows that it isn't on, as you get a bit of tunnel vision. That's what happens. In less traumatic times a submission attempt flows from one to the next, myself and other BJJ practitioners would be quite willing to show how one thing leds to another, there can be a flow in grappling (not dissimilar to Aikido), grappling is like a game of chess - the art of submissions is in fact like the 10,000 or so final check mate moves, it is an intricate art in itself.

[matty_mojo911]

The reason I say that my rank exceeds my abilities is that I think the blue belt was more of a parting gift from my sensei than a true measure of my skills. But at the same time I respect him and his judgement, I have only been training BJJ for 1 year after 5 years absence from Judo.



Michael - you'll know if you're worth a BJJ Blue belt if the people that walk in the door don't offer much of a challenge any more.(Unless that person is a 140 kg muscle bound monster). That's my simple theory.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Michael - you'll know if you're worth a BJJ Blue belt if the people that walk in the door don't offer much of a challenge any more.(Unless that person is a 140 kg muscle bound monster). That's my simple theory.

This 63 kg bluebelt has it's limit in its own weigh+1/3... :uch:

[Jim Sorrentino]

Kokyu tanden ho is the single most useful thing I have learned in all my martial arts training, thanks Jim Sorrentino!
You're welcome, Michael!

Jim

[Michael Neal]

Matt, My Judo training is enough to handle most beginners, even with many ex wrestlers. My problem is I only have a top game and no guard game whatsoever, I have very limited technical knowledge and almost never get any submissions, and my cardio is horrendous.

My cardio is getting better but I can still barely hang on when fighting more experienced people. Even after a few months of doing circuit routines and sprints my cardio is still very slowly progressing.

The #1 skill in any martial arts is cardio, you can't do much at all with out it