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Hanna B
11-14-2011, 10:12 AM
In judo, in aikido and in several other budo arts you tap when you want your partner to let go of you. How universal is this signal, I wonder? Does it exist in all budo arts (except karate and kendo etc where it is not needed)?

Who invented it? Do all koryu schools use it?

Is it Kano Jigoros "fault" that we all use it?

Walker
11-14-2011, 12:20 PM
I think it is pretty universal for there to be some signal. In my limited experience of a few koryu and styles of aikido, judo, etc. all signal that a conclusion has been reached be it a tap on the mat, body, clap or kiai. If one thinks about it there has to be some communication that success has been achieved and to guard against potential damage.

What is not so universal is what that signal means. In the more traditional and less modern arts I've experienced the signal is usually more nuanced than just "let go." It could mean that the limit of range of mobility has been reached or a limit of pain and so application his held at that point. It could also mean that this portion of the technique has achieved its aim and is a signal for the next part to commence. It is pretty rare for the "tap" to trigger a complete letting go except for things like chokes where pressure has to be released immediately or the person is going out. Usually some level of control is maintained throughout the process of disengaging.

Kata training is a communication rich environment with all sorts of signals and call and response and whatnot. If and when one moves off the script of kata even more communication is necessary if training is going to be safe and productive.

Mark Jakabcsin
11-15-2011, 08:46 PM
Good question. From personal experience I tend to ask first before free play begins. Sometimes I forget....not good. New folks to any school come with their own understanding of the rules, hence it is important to go to a basic agreement of communication.

phitruong
11-16-2011, 03:11 PM
prefer to scream like a little girl meself. tapping is just soooo unmanly. :)

Hanna B
11-16-2011, 09:38 PM
I think it is pretty universal for there to be some signal. In my limited experience of a few koryu and styles of aikido, judo, etc. all signal that a conclusion has been reached be it a tap on the mat, body, clap or kiai. If one thinks about it there has to be some communication that success has been achieved and to guard against potential damage.

What is not so universal is what that signal means. In the more traditional and less modern arts I've experienced the signal is usually more nuanced than just "let go." It could mean that the limit of range of mobility has been reached or a limit of pain and so application his held at that point. It could also mean that this portion of the technique has achieved its aim and is a signal for the next part to commence. It is pretty rare for the "tap" to trigger a complete letting go except for things like chokes where pressure has to be released immediately or the person is going out. Usually some level of control is maintained throughout the process of disengaging.

But tapping as The Signal is not that universal, you say. Where and when do people use kiai?

If the scale of signals are more varied in koryu, it could have been Kano who simplified the system. If a competing sparring system you need a signal that simply says "let go".

Walker
11-17-2011, 12:07 PM
But tapping as The Signal is not that universal, you say. Where and when do people use kiai?

If the scale of signals are more varied in koryu, it could have been Kano who simplified the system. If a competing sparring system you need a signal that simply says "let go".

"Maitta!" (参った!) is a common verbal admission of defeat.

I guess I don't know what you are asking for. All I have said is that "tapping out" is one signal among many. I find it hard to believe that no one in Japanese budo ever had the idea to have a signal before Kano. If a signal is necessary in a competing sparing system, what do they do in freestyle or greco-roman wrestling? Sumo? How about fencing or boxing?

Hanna B
11-17-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm asking for ideas of the history of tapping, that's all. Since I've trained in a (non aikido) style where tapping is not the universal signal it is in judo and aikido. So I wonder if someone threw away something that was always there, or if someone introduced something to some budo. Kano probably didn't invent all that much. But since his judo was so popular, many concepts from judo trainning probably influenced several koryu. In this way possibly some things seem universal that actually arenn. But Im only speculating.

Im not expecting anyone to have answers. Just throwing ideas and questions out to see what happens.

Walker
11-17-2011, 04:59 PM
OK, got it.

One other thought you might consider is that the "simplifying" of communication in judo and aikido to something along the lines of an on/off switch might be related to a general degradation of kata training in both arts when it is acknowledged at all, it is generally in a simplified form.