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sakumeikan
11-09-2011, 10:29 AM
I'd like to add that yes, we do pay Dan, but by the time he gets out here and covers air, hotel, and other costs, there is either little or nothing left. He ends making a lot less then minimum wage every time he visits - but of course the compensation is getting to see us :) .

Best,

Chris

Dear Chris,
I have difficulty in believing that D.H works for minimum wage[as you state ].Since the fees for D.H /dojo course fees are approx $175 dollars and even if we assume that there is a limit of say 25 people the income base on these figures is $4375.Now I assume there are expenses. Hall hire , travel etc. Surely if a dojo hosts D.H,the said dojo would arrange D.Hs transport, food,a place to stay plus of course the little bit of hospitality?Now at the end of the day if you /others /D.H asks for and he receives the minimum rate of 6 bucks per hr three things are possible1. D.H is extremely benevolent and does not rip anyone off financially.2.Your overall expenses are too high leaving no meat on the bone.3.Somebody somewhere should be given an Oscar for creative accountancy.
Of course you could state that what D.H receives is a personal matter .I have no problem with that. I am just curious at the assertion made by you regarding the low rate per hour given to D.H .If this is indeed the rate per hrD,H might be better washing dishes in MCDonalds[just a joke ]. Feel free to either comment or not here. Cheers, Joe.

Chris Li
11-09-2011, 10:59 AM
Dear Chris,
I have difficulty in believing that D.H works for minimum wage[as you state ].Since the fees for D.H /dojo course fees are approx $175 dollars and even if we assume that there is a limit of say 25 people the income base on these figures is $4375.Now I assume there are expenses. Hall hire , travel etc. Surely if a dojo hosts D.H,the said dojo would arrange D.Hs transport, food,a place to stay plus of course the little bit of hospitality?Now at the end of the day if you /others /D.H asks for and he receives the minimum rate of 6 bucks per hr three things are possible1. D.H is extremely benevolent and does not rip anyone off financially.2.Your overall expenses are too high leaving no meat on the bone.3.Somebody somewhere should be given an Oscar for creative accountancy.
Of course you could state that what D.H receives is a personal matter .I have no problem with that. I am just curious at the assertion made by you regarding the low rate per hour given to D.H .If this is indeed the rate per hrD,H might be better washing dishes in MCDonalds[just a joke ]. Feel free to either comment or not here. Cheers, Joe.

Dan pays all of his expenses himself out what he gets in fees. This time we had, IIRC, 14 paying attendees. That's about $2,450. Airfare between Boston and Honolulu runs $700 to $800, depending on what you get - that leaves about $1,700. Hotel in Waikiki for a week is going to run about $1000 - that leaves about $700. Rental car for a week runs at least $300-$400. That leaves maybe $300. Then he's got to eat - we pick up what meals we can, but he resists letting us buy for him and sneaks money into the pot - also we're not with him for breakfast and lunch during the week. After food for the week, if he eats light, you're looking at maybe $100-$150. He taught two 10 hour workshop days and then four free evening sessions of at least 4 hours each.

Do the math.

And that doesn't even cover venue costs, which we cover out of our own pockets.

Best,

Chris

Keith Larman
11-09-2011, 11:56 AM
And as a self-employed person myself, let me also point out that every day someone like me is away from home, away from their main business, they are generally not generating income. Some of us don't get paid vacation days. I've gone to events to give lectures in the past. Sometimes folk will help with covering some of the expenses. But in the end rarely does it ever make economic sense to do these things. Even if I walk away with a small bit of extra cash in my pocket usually I also had a couple days at least of preparation and lost income leading up to it. Not to mention travel days, etc. That is income *not* earned. Lost. I *always* lose money. It *always* costs me in the long run. I do the things I do simply because I feel I should share what I know when I can. So I do when I can afford to do it and don't when I can't.

Just my own experience...

Chris Li
11-09-2011, 12:10 PM
And as a self-employed person myself, let me also point out that every day someone like me is away from home, away from their main business, they are generally not generating income. Some of us don't get paid vacation days. I've gone to events to give lectures in the past. Sometimes folk will help with covering some of the expenses. But in the end rarely does it ever make economic sense to do these things. Even if I walk away with a small bit of extra cash in my pocket usually I also had a couple days at least of preparation and lost income leading up to it. Not to mention travel days, etc. That is income *not* earned. Lost. I *always* lose money. It *always* costs me in the long run. I do the things I do simply because I feel I should share what I know when I can. So I do when I can afford to do it and don't when I can't.

Just my own experience...

That's true, and Dan is also self-employed and not earning during the time that he takes to share with us.

Here's an interesting exercise - Moriteru Ueshiba visited Hawaii this year. His fee alone was significantly more than the entire intake from Dan's workshop. In addition, all of his expenses were covered - his first class airfare from Japan was also significantly more than the entire intake from Dan's workshop all by itself. Ocean front suite in Waikiki - that alone was also significantly more than the entire intake from Dan's workshop.

Also had to pay expenses and fees (airfare, hotel, food, etc.) for the Otomo that has to travel with him.

He taught 3 one hour classes, no free classes. Hundreds of people were on the mat, so actual contact time was measured in seconds per person. Most people had no actual hands-on contact at all.

As to what he can teach you in contrast to Dan - well, I'll leave that question as an exercise for later :) .

And since this is his job, he doesn't lose any income by coming here.

I'm picking on him to make a point - but the same point could be made for most of the name-brand Shihan and their large seminars, which cost about the same but give you less than 0.00001% of the value.

I have no idea why the money things seems to be such a hard thing for people to understand.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
11-09-2011, 01:14 PM
I have no idea why the money things seems to be such a hard thing for people to understand.

Chris

i was going to give up my day time job and be a full time aiki teacher. i was looking forward to fame and fortune, hot babes, then possibly my own reality TV show. now, i have to rethink. i might be able to do it part-time, weekend and holiday. of course i need to know a bit about aiki first, but then again, most aikido folks won't know the different anyway. :D

Nicholas Eschenbruch
11-09-2011, 01:15 PM
I offered Dan a meal after a course without knowing him well. I got a very stern, unhappy look and a demanding "Are you trying to do the Sensei thing here?", with the clear implication that "Yes Sensei" was the wrong answer. A tense moment passed and then he was apparently happy I was just thankful for what I had learned. We had a great evening. Dan's teaching is, at its heart, a lot about being friends, and, in my yet limited experience, he accepts no other currency.

I get very very tired of people accusing him of making a fast buck. Its just ridiculous, and embarrasing for those who try that kind of slander.

Ignore him if you don't like what he says and does, I did that for some years as well. Accuse him of not answering pms and email, of attempting to blow people's mental fuses through extended training sessions, even accuse him of holding simplistic views on aikido history... as I have also done :D .. but pulling the money joker is just a cowardish (yes, I said that) way of not engaging with what he does. Get yourself a better reason.

hughrbeyer
11-09-2011, 01:29 PM
This whole thread strikes me as highly unseemly. Is Dan's compensation any of your business? I'm of the opinion it's a matter between Dan and those he trains. If you're not one of them, I expect you've got better things to concern yourself with.

The whole topic only came up because some accusations were made (by those who hadn't met him) that he was getting rich off of selling snake oil. Which handed a ROTFLMAO moment to those who have met him, but was otherwise pretty far out of bounds.

At least one of the people making the accusations doesn't post here anymore. I'd like to suggest we banish the topic, too.

gregstec
11-09-2011, 01:36 PM
WHAT!!!!! you guys actually give him money? All I ever give him is a large amount of grief, a good time, and the biggest challenge of his life in trying to make me understand anything :D Now that you have established this precedence, I guess I will have to start giving him money now too :(

On a serious note, those that actually believe Dan is in this for money really do not have a good grasp of what the man is all about - your loss, not mine.

Greg

woudew
11-09-2011, 01:42 PM
All i give him is a headache.

PS
at OP, do you really care how much money Dan is making?

lipyeow
11-09-2011, 02:24 PM
Since i had similar accounting experience organizing Sam Chin's workshop, I can attest that what Chris says is true.

In fact i think the number that Chris quoted for airfare from east coast to Honolulu is way too low. More realistic is about 900-1000 USD from east coast to Honolulu. The rest of the math is not that hard. So really, 175 USD for a weekend seminar is not exorbitant. It barely covers cost assuming a 20 participant workshop. If you have a 100 participant ... that's a different story ...

Lipyeow

Ernesto Lemke
11-09-2011, 03:39 PM
I also feel a need to respond but, considering the heated debates surrounding Dan and his credibilities, by now I fully expect that all and any atempt to offer even the most sensible of counter-arguments or explanations, are likely to not be met with any open mind.

I don't recall similar questions being asked, now or before, that concerned your average Aikido Sensei. This could have gone via PM too. Now the OP makes it appear as if the public at large stands to benefit of this "knowledge."

Marc Abrams
11-09-2011, 04:24 PM
I like my pm chats with Joe. I think that he is an upfront, honest person who has no problems asking questions that some people might be uncomfortable with. Dan has a genuine passion for what he does. He does not turn that passion into a money machine. Dan and Joe are both men who are upfront and have a great deal of integrity. I would put money on the first round of suds that both of these men would walk away from meeting each other, liking each other.

Joe does have a right to flesh out that question. By the same token, Joe should accept that Dan really is not making any appreciable money on what he is doing. Both of these men are dedicated to what they do. I can only hope that they meet sooner, rather than later so that find the common ground among them. I too, had my "run-ins" with Dan on the web early on. I fully acknowledged to him that I was wrong in my position when I met him and saw & felt what he could do. Dan has become a trusted friend whom I fully enjoy training under every chance that I get.

Now that we know:
1) Dan is not making a living off of these seminars. Actually, he is losing potential earnings from his real job.
2) Both men are men of integrity and dedicated to what they do.
3) Both men have no problems stating their positions and asking their questions.

We now know that there is no crash site, lets move along folks....

Marc Abrams

mathewjgano
11-09-2011, 04:49 PM
...2) Both men are men of integrity and dedicated to what they do.
3) Both men have no problems stating their positions and asking their questions.


Nicely put! I've seen first-hand examples of generosity from each of them. I have a lot of respect for both men.
...For what it's worth.
Take care,
Matt

kewms
11-09-2011, 04:55 PM
I don't recall similar questions being asked, now or before, that concerned your average Aikido Sensei.

Indeed.... It seems to me that compensation is a private matter between the students and the instructor. If the students believe they are getting good value for their money, they should invite the instructor to come again. If they don't, they shouldn't, or should renegotiate the terms. If an instructor seems to be in great demand, that suggests that most people believe they are getting good value.

But public arguments about exact dollar amounts are just plain insulting.

Katherine

sakumeikan
11-09-2011, 05:02 PM
Dan pays all of his expenses himself out what he gets in fees. This time we had, IIRC, 14 paying attendees. That's about $2,450. Airfare between Boston and Honolulu runs $700 to $800, depending on what you get - that leaves about $1,700. Hotel in Waikiki for a week is going to run about $1000 - that leaves about $700. Rental car for a week runs at least $300-$400. That leaves maybe $300. Then he's got to eat - we pick up what meals we can, but he resists letting us buy for him and sneaks money into the pot - also we're not with him for breakfast and lunch during the week. After food for the week, if he eats light, you're looking at maybe $100-$150. He taught two 10 hour workshop days and then four free evening sessions of at least 4 hours each.

Do the math.

And that doesn't even cover venue costs, which we cover out of our own pockets.

Best,

Chris
hi Chris,
Thank you for your reply.It certainly seems that costs in the U.S.A are not cheap.Of course all places are being hit by increased fuel costs. All I can do is raise my hat to Dan for being so generous with both his time and his cash contributions.Perhaps extra bodies on the course would help matters?Cheers, Joe
Ps Visited Hawaii[Hilo, LaHaina , Honolulu but didnt have time to grab some practice.Sure is a nice place.Kept looking out for Steve McGarrett.and Dano-no luck.Joe.

Gerardo Torres
11-09-2011, 05:05 PM
I agree with others that personal finances and compensation is a private matter and in poor taste to bring up as a topic to a public forum. I don't think anybody has any "right" to be asking those questions, but if you do, please go ahead and hold some of the big-name aikido sensei out there to the exact same standard of questioning -- not doing so strikes me as hypocritical.

Chris Li
11-09-2011, 05:09 PM
hi Chris,
Thank you for your reply.It certainly seems that costs in the U.S.A are not cheap.Of course all places are being hit by increased fuel costs. All I can do is raise my hat to Dan for being so generous with both his time and his cash contributions.Perhaps extra bodies on the course would help matters?Cheers, Joe
Ps Visited Hawaii[Hilo, LaHaina , Honolulu but didnt have time to grab some practice.Sure is a nice place.Kept looking out for Steve McGarrett.and Dano-no luck.Joe.

Extra bodies would help a bit - but we don't want to go over 20 in any case, so it will never be really profitable.

The 5-0 guys wander around sometime, stop by next time you're in town!

Best,

Chris

Keith Larman
11-09-2011, 05:48 PM
The 5-0 guys wander around sometime, stop by next time you're in town!

Best,

Chris

But sadly not my 5-0 hero -- the late Jack Lord. Not only was he Steve, but he was also Felix Leiter in Dr. No. A man's man... ;) And by accounts of family on the island he was quite well respected locally.

sakumeikan
11-09-2011, 05:56 PM
Extra bodies would help a bit - but we don't want to go over 20 in any case, so it will never be really profitable.

The 5-0 guys wander around sometime, stop by next time you're in town!

Best,

Chris

Dear All,
I seem to a stirred up a hornets nest.Let me state my position.As a Scotsman I am always trying like most folks to get by and get value for cash.Be it Aikido or buying a burger its the same.Now as a long term Aikidoka I know that the average aikidoka isnt rolling in moneyGenerally its the same with 90% of most senior Aikidoka.In a career spanning over 40 years my own aikido balance sheet is in the red.I must have spent a small fortune on course fees.I have usually cost myself cash to teach others. I felt on reading the blog concerning the fees of Mr Harden to be one which I felt required assuming that the contributor of the D,H blog was happy ] to give me some idea of costs of courses withMr H.I was surprised that the earlier blog seemed to indicate that Mr H. was not exactly receiving a kings ransom for his work.You will note of course I have subsequently offered my congratulations to him for his work.
I also note the comments in respect of the subject of other Shihan /dignataries in the Aikido celestial firmament.I accept that professionals need cash,however I often wonder why it seems to me that in order to successfully run a course with a BIG NAME one has to generate a sum of cash equal to the national debt of Greece /Italy /the Eurozone.to pay for the Sensei and the additional baggage.Bums on seats is the hard part.Cost are going up, the economy is going down, its hard to get people to attend seminars.
So in a nutshell, in case anybody has any doubts , I was not taking a potshot at anybody or trying to be a smarty pants.I asked an honest question,I got a honest reply.I salute you Mr Harden.If by chance we do meet the first bottle of ale is on me.If I also visit Hawaii again I owe Chris a wee schooner of the local suds.
I bid you all adieu, Cheers Joe.

Chris Li
11-09-2011, 06:01 PM
I also note the comments in respect of the subject of other Shihan /dignataries in the Aikido celestial firmament.I accept that professionals need cash,however I often wonder why it seems to me that in order to successfully run a course with a BIG NAME one has to generate a sum of cash equal to the national debt of Greece /Italy /the Eurozone.to pay for the Sensei and the additional baggage.Bums on seats is the hard part.Cost are going up, the economy is going down, its hard to get people to attend seminars.
So in a nutshell, in case anybody has any doubts , I was not taking a potshot at anybody or trying to be a smarty pants.I asked an honest question,I got a honest reply.I salute you Mr Harden.If by chance we do meet the first bottle of ale is on me.If I also visit Hawaii again I owe Chris a wee schooner of the local suds.
I bid you all adieu, Cheers Joe.

No worries, I wonder about the cost too - especially whether or not you get anything even approaching a reasonable value from the big names.

Best,

Chris

Howard Popkin
11-09-2011, 06:14 PM
As a guy who teaches seminars, I can tell you that Dan is making very little.

No one takes into account travel time, time away from work, away from family, etc.

Going to Hawaii, yea...AMAZING, but 30hours of flying time easy. If you factor in those hours Dan is losing money.

Putting the money aside, If you have to ask how much Dan's seminar is WORTH, then you have no clue what you are looking at or for.

Most budoka spend thousands, if not tens if thousands of dollars over the course of many years to meet an old asian man who wont teach you, yet we bow and scrape because they are asian.

Dan, who is the best martial artist I have met, BAR NONE, wont let you call him Sensei and pours more information on you than you can handle, process, and or understand and someone has the audacity to question how much money he makes ?????

My simple answer is NOT ENOUGH !!!!

If you don't think you got your money's worth... well you simply have no idea what you were looking at.

I meant no offense, this just struck a chord with me.

MM
11-09-2011, 06:46 PM
Uh, are we done with the DanFest 2011?

Joe, hats off to you for wading through this thread and keeping a civil attitude.

Can we get back to talking about controversial "aikido" and "non-aikido" topics now? :D

Howard Popkin
11-09-2011, 06:50 PM
I was civil, and so was Joe. Just wanted everyone to know how I felt.

:)

gregstec
11-09-2011, 06:56 PM
Ditto to what Howard said - also, for the record, Howard is no slouch either when it comes to MA talent

Those that have a deep interest in learning what aiki is really about would pay thousands of dollars for the answers - well folks, here is the 'hidden in plain sight' secret about that - it won't cost you thousands of dollars - all it will cost you is spending some time with Dan and Howard - these guys have some very special stuff - your loss if you don't spend some effort getting to know them better.

Greg

ps: to Joe, I know where you were coming from, so no problem here, you are an open and honest guy - but there are others that still have the 'snake oil' opinion of a scam going on - those folks are the ones that are truly losing out here, and with that type of narrow vision, I am sure they are losing out in many other areas as well.

gregstec
11-09-2011, 06:58 PM
Uh, are we done with the DanFest 2011?

Joe, hats off to you for wading through this thread and keeping a civil attitude.

Can we get back to talking about controversial "aikido" and "non-aikido" topics now? :D

Yo, were are planning the DanFest 2012 as we type, going to charge thousands of dollars so people realize how much it really is worth - where have you been? :D

Greg

Howard Popkin
11-09-2011, 07:01 PM
Thanks Greg, but I just wanted people to understand the value that should be placed on someone who is willing to travel great distances and sleep in hotels with lousy beds just to teach someone else what used to be a highly guarded secret, only taught to one or two people per generation.

As for Joe, He conducted himself with integrity, I think he was honestly asking questions. That's why I gave him an honest answer.

How's the foot ?

Best wishes,

Howie

gregstec
11-09-2011, 07:15 PM
Thanks Greg, but I just wanted people to understand the value that should be placed on someone who is willing to travel great distances and sleep in hotels with lousy beds just to teach someone else what used to be a highly guarded secret, only taught to one or two people per generation.

As for Joe, He conducted himself with integrity, I think he was honestly asking questions. That's why I gave him an honest answer.

How's the foot ?

Best wishes,

Howie

I am with ya - I tried my own little shot at expressing the value of what is being discussed here as well :)

Joe and I have had a couple PMs previously - he may come across a little blunt sometimes, but he is a gentleman and honest, I like him!

More accurate question would be: 'How are the feet?" Not as good as I would hope for at this time - getting better, but not 100% - toes on the left foot healed, but I think there was also some nerve damage in there as well along with some bone bruising; still have some pain there. The ankle on the right foot is still weak and painful in areas as well. However, all things considered, I can train for a few hours at a time without too much problem :)

See ya in January

Greg

ps: sorry for all the personal stuff, but he did ask :)

Howard Popkin
11-09-2011, 07:27 PM
Feel better :)

sakumeikan
11-09-2011, 07:28 PM
I am with ya - I tried my own little shot at expressing the value of what is being discussed here as well :)

Joe and I have had a couple PMs previously - he may come across a little blunt sometimes, but he is a gentleman and honest, I like him!

More accurate question would be: 'How are the feet?" Not as good as I would hope for at this time - getting better, but not 100% - toes on the left foot healed, but I think there was also some nerve damage in there as well along with some bone bruising; still have some pain there. The ankle on the right foot is still weak and painful in areas as well. However, all things considered, I can train for a few hours at a time without too much problem :)

See ya in January

Greg

ps: sorry for all the personal stuff, but he did ask :)

HiGuys,
With such praise coming from you guys and others I run a serious risk of becoming the prizewinner of the Aikiwebs Popular Man of the Year 2011 in the category of 'Idiot Sensei-over 70
year old section!Next thing I know I will be asked to join the U.K coalition Government!!!
Hope the feet improve-take care , cheers, Joe

Lyle Laizure
11-09-2011, 10:55 PM
As an attendee to a seminar I am not concerned with what the instructor is gettting "paid" to conduct the seminar. That is and should be between the hosting school and the visiting instructor. If I can afford to go to a seminar and I am interested in what the instructor has to offer then I go, otherwise I don't. :)

Mark Freeman
11-10-2011, 04:56 AM
As an attendee to a seminar I am not concerned with what the instructor is gettting "paid" to conduct the seminar. That is and should be between the hosting school and the visiting instructor. If I can afford to go to a seminar and I am interested in what the instructor has to offer then I go, otherwise I don't. :)

This is and really the only consideration that should be taken in to account.

Does Dan give good value for money? Is he worth it? I can't speak for anyone but myself, I would say yes, absolutely. He is generous with his time and his knowledge, and seems to me, to be on a mission to disseminate a particular skillset, to those that want it, and who are prepared to travel and put the personal effort into getting it.

Attending one of Dan's seminars will leave you richer not poorer, but you will also realise that you have invested in a ticket that could take you to places you didn't think were possible for you (again, only if you are prepared to put in the work).

regards,

Mark

Howard Popkin
11-10-2011, 05:19 AM
just scratching the surface of what Dan can do, AND TEACH :D

gregstec
11-10-2011, 10:52 AM
HiGuys,
With such praise coming from you guys and others I run a serious risk of becoming the prizewinner of the Aikiwebs Popular Man of the Year 2011 in the category of 'Idiot Sensei-over 70
year old section!Next thing I know I will be asked to join the U.K coalition Government!!!
Hope the feet improve-take care , cheers, Joe

Thanks - :)

Greg

Mark Freeman
11-10-2011, 11:01 AM
!Next thing I know I will be asked to join the U.K coalition Government!!!


Hi Joe,

it has been acknowledged on this forum that you are a gentleman and you are honest, these facts alone disqualify you from being able to take a place in the UK coalition government;)

regards,

Mark

Marc Abrams
11-10-2011, 12:07 PM
Hi Joe,

it has been acknowledged on this forum that you are a gentleman and you are honest, these facts alone disqualify you from being able to take a place in the UK coalition government;)

regards,

Mark

Mark:

Being honest and a gentleman immediately disqualifies a person from being a political figure, let alone working in a coalition government (Coalition government= prostitutes who will band together for the best paying brothels and customers). ;)

Regards,

marc abrams

sakumeikan
11-10-2011, 12:17 PM
Hi Joe,

it has been acknowledged on this forum that you are a gentleman and you are honest, these facts alone disqualify you from being able to take a place in the UK coalition government;)

regards,

Mark

Dear Mark , Brilliant comment!!! All the best , Joe.

HL1978
11-10-2011, 02:23 PM
I've run a couple of seminars and the costs involved are in line with the costs other have spoken. Venue fees are also killer in the USA, unless you have access to dedicated space. One teacher was surprised given that venue costs are much cheaper in his home country.

I've run seminars at a loss, but I don't think anyone here is doing this to get rich. If they were they would be using a different business model.

graham christian
11-10-2011, 04:46 PM
May I say I find this thread a bit ridiculous almost to the point of abominable. I actually can't agree with such a thread fitting in with decency.

If you are going to go to a seminar or course you have the right to enquire about cost.

However, beyond that I see it as nobodies business.

I don't have to agree with what Dan says to see this. A ridiculous thread.

Regards.G.

Gorgeous George
11-10-2011, 05:21 PM
...says the master of 'not ridiculous' threads...

graham christian
11-10-2011, 05:49 PM
...says the master of 'not ridiculous' threads...

And the master of ridiculous comments.

Gorgeous George
11-10-2011, 06:57 PM
And the master of ridiculous comments.

Of course; you're the master of so many things.

akiy
11-10-2011, 07:14 PM
It looks like this thread has run its course, both in resolving the original issue and in staying respectful of one another.

Thread closed.

-- Jun