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bob_stra
11-06-2011, 10:46 PM
Here's an interesting take on 'breath power' from a series called "Stan Lee's Superhumans"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLz2kNl5gwM&feature=related

The interesting thing to note here is the isometric test. Tom's abdominal strength is actually *lower* then the average guy

"We assumed Tom's strength came from crunching his abdominal muscles, so that's what we tested...but Dr Bohnman's theory lies in something called Intra-abdominal pressure"

It's my understanding that these hard ki tricks (breaking brick, cars driving over top of you etc) teach strength / pressure regulation, using things like Sanchin kata etc. BTW, please note that I'm not saying Tom does things like Sanchin (though he might, for all we know), so we can't be 100% sure that Tom is a representative example of hard chikung training.

Anyway, it gives you some inkling that it's not "just muscle" that's associated with these kind of things.

FWIW

bob_stra
11-06-2011, 10:57 PM
Whoops - timed out. Edit to add the following clip re: different ways of doing Sanchin (hard & soft), which I understand is something folks here are playing around with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

ashe
12-09-2011, 08:55 PM
video in the OP has been removed. =-/

Cady Goldfield
12-10-2011, 10:51 AM
I think it's this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3_da-9hes0&feature=related

But I haven't watched it except the first few seconds -- it's 15 minutes long and I'm on dial-up. :o

bob_stra
12-10-2011, 11:06 AM
I think it's this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3_da-9hes0&feature=related

But I haven't watched it except the first few seconds -- it's 15 minutes long and I'm on dial-up. :o

Yep: from 1:50 onwards

ashe
12-13-2011, 06:44 PM
I think it's this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3_da-9hes0&feature=related

But I haven't watched it except the first few seconds -- it's 15 minutes long and I'm on dial-up. :o

w00t! good looking out. Jose mentioned you got in touch with him, did you guys meet up yet?

DH
12-14-2011, 10:23 AM
Yet another case of total ignorance by someone who can do....but didn't even know how he was doing it. This of course means he could never teach it.
He should have joined the martial arts.;)
Trying to figure out the ultimate yield of force through flexation defined the ignorance of both the scientist and the practitioner.
This is not quite what we should be shooting for anyway.
Dan

ewolput
12-14-2011, 10:41 AM
This "abdominal pressure" is already mentioned much earlier.
For example in The Secrets of Judo by J.Watanabe& L.Avakian -first edition 1960;
Google also for Kurakichi Hirata, interesting stuff.

Whenever one lifts a heavy object, the diaphragm contracts with the other abdominal muscles, and at the same time the lower back, bend backward at the junction of the 4th and 5th lumbar vertebrae because the psoas muscle contracts, as do the other muscles attached to the pelvis. The upper body and the lower extremities now become combined into one solid mass. When these muscles contract, pressure is produced in the abdomen.
.........
The abdominal pressure is also called "centripetal pressure" and it has a positive influence on the motor nerve system (Kurakichi Hirata, physiologist - Kokumin Taiku).

Eddy

DH
12-14-2011, 10:59 AM
This "abdominal pressure" is already mentioned much earlier.
For example in The Secrets of Judo by J.Watanabe& L.Avakian -first edition 1960;
Google also for Kurakichi Hirata, interesting stuff.

Whenever one lifts a heavy object, the diaphragm contracts with the other abdominal muscles, and at the same time the lower back, bend backward at the junction of the 4th and 5th lumbar vertebrae because the psoas muscle contracts, as do the other muscles attached to the pelvis. The upper body and the lower extremities now become combined into one solid mass. When these muscles contract, pressure is produced in the abdomen.
.........
The abdominal pressure is also called "centripetal pressure" and it has a positive influence on the motor nerve system (Kurakichi Hirata, physiologist - Kokumin Taiku).

Eddy
That's closer, but in martial arts the contraction is not what we are pursuing, otherwise you would not be free to move and remain softly pressurized. One example is the psoas. There is a way to make it very strong, active and mobile that yields ultimate delivery, that is most certainly not from contracting it. Were the same scientist to develop a test for what I am talking about...he would engineer it wrong and be just as confused as he was this time. While the guy who knows and can do would continue to baffle that same scientist.

Interestingly enough that description does not cover the whole picture as a power building mechanism and what it does to incorporate the active use of the limbs themselves. Most advanced MAers see and use their limbs as levers, which explains most of their failures in so many things. I could get any jamoke off the street to move the way many advanced MA practitioners move.
Comically enough, this stuff; developed by farmers and warriors and workers....really isn't rocket science! But lets just leave both the scientists and the martial artists to their muscle contraction theories shall we...after all we do need people to practice on.;)

Dan

Tatsushin
12-14-2011, 11:21 AM
Dan,

check your PM's :-)

ashe
12-14-2011, 01:23 PM
The test was useless, but even the demo, while impressive in its own way is, I think, mostly irrelevant from a ma point of view. You need enough condensing the Dan tien to unify the upper and lower, but its still only part of the picture.

Its still cool to see an old guy training hard though.

bob_stra
12-15-2011, 11:41 AM
Maybe so. On the other hand, he does take quite a few solid hits to the stomach. Resisting blows seems like it might have martial applicability, but YMMV.

As far as idle tricks go, this one is kind of fun (try it yourself; wear a cup)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsAg7Z5H4Cs

Of course, the point is not to practice bouncing weights (though some people seem to have turned it into a sport - see http://www.magictortoise.com/dantian.htm for reference). Rather, I think the point is to develop the conditioning sufficient to bounce the weight (without practicing weight bouncing per se).

FWIW

DH
12-15-2011, 12:48 PM
It isn't all the same. It is a HUGE mistake to look at power and think..."its all good."
A whole bunch of karate guys were doing pressurized breathing in the 50's and 60's.
And they got results!
....and many stroked out.
But hey, if it's all the same to ya...flex your psoas and crunch and build pressure till your veins bulge!
Please, just don't teach anyone else! :eek:
Dan

ashe
12-15-2011, 06:50 PM
Maybe so. On the other hand, he does take quite a few solid hits to the stomach. Resisting blows seems like it might have martial applicability, but YMMV.

As far as idle tricks go, this one is kind of fun (try it yourself; wear a cup)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsAg7Z5H4Cs

Of course, the point is not to practice bouncing weights (though some people seem to have turned it into a sport - see http://www.magictortoise.com/dantian.htm for reference). Rather, I think the point is to develop the conditioning sufficient to bounce the weight (without practicing weight bouncing per se).

FWIW

i can't remember who, i think it's the guan ping guys from Kuo, Lien Ying's line, do a lot of this type of stuff. I think they have a contest at some gathering they do every year to see who can launch a penny the highest.

this type of thing is a waste of time IMHO. this type of power should come from the back anyway.

Upyu
12-15-2011, 08:07 PM
The test was useless, but even the demo, while impressive in its own way is, I think, mostly irrelevant from a ma point of view. You need enough condensing the Dan tien to unify the upper and lower, but its still only part of the picture.

Its still cool to see an old guy training hard though.

I don't think it was useless, it simply outlines in a really easy to understand what condensing/pressurization can do to boost power, and how it differs from flexation.
I agree that taking it to the extreme that the old man did is kind of besides the point, and there is plenty other stuff going on under the hood.

I think for many, simply realizing that flexation alone doesn't necessarily produce the highest yields in terms of strength can be a foot in the door, making it highly relevant to MAs.
Otherwise why the fixation on breathing, on certain inhaling/exhaling methods to condense different areas in differing ways.

Not saying all are equal, but just saying looking at the bigger picture can be useful.

bob_stra
12-15-2011, 11:37 PM
Not sure how this idea of "flexation" (sic) came up. If you're talking about the first clip, we should note that it specifically states that Tom's ability to perform his feats are not related to the strength of his flexors. In fact, his flexors were weaker then a normal man's. (I don't think that's 100% true, but it makes an interesting point).

I suppose the confusion might arise from the fact that he appears to be doing some kind of sitting crunch. If you look more closely, you can see that actual test is isometric; the flexion part is just a convenient motion for using the machine. There are a bunch of other, better ways they could have proved / disproved the same point.

Wrt to "pressurized breathing being all good" - I think that's a two edged sword. One the one hand, it's possible to show, from first principles, why trying to generate massive amounts of isolated IAP is probably not a great idea. On the other hand, you generate large amounts of IAP (albeit infrequently) going to the gym and doing heavy squats. If "breath pressure" was such an instant killer, we'd see gym junkies dropping dead every other minute. IOW, moderate pressures are going to be involved with any kind of heavy effort, though I'm in general agreement that trying to blow yourself up like a hot water bottle is kind of a goofy thing to do.

Ashe says "this type of power should come from the back anyway". I know what you're saying (power of the kidney's / mingmen), but I think that muddies the issue a touch. Better to say "the mingmen and dantien are all aspects of a larger thing. Breath power (Kokyu) is also an aspect".

I think these clips are pretty illustrative of the larger argument, in that they show how/why a strong middle is useful. Squint your brain a little bit and imagine throwing someone with this kind of built up strength

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BhbofWKfTY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRXaYbUCs4