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tiachica
11-02-2011, 03:32 AM
Hiya,

sort of opposite to the "Overcomplacent" thread, what happens if you feel that you are not being challenged as an Uke, ie. in Ikkajo when the lock is applied and your Shite is waiting for you to tap, but to be honest, you have no reason to tap, as there is no discomfort or pain...

What do you do? Tap anyway out of politeness and stop them from improving?, tell them but it still makes no difference next time?, do nothing and get told of for not tapping?
I am sure they are taking it easy with me being a beginner, but I am quite flexible, so may need a little more pressure than other beginners?

What are your thoughts on this?

:confused:

grondahl
11-02-2011, 04:12 AM
Pins do not necessary work by pain or discomfort. Have you tried to just move out of the pin?

tiachica
11-02-2011, 04:19 AM
Hi Peter,

yes, I would have trouble to move out of the pin, but I would still have no need to tap?

St Matt
11-02-2011, 04:20 AM
Yes as Peter says try getting out of it or resisting against it so they have to adjust and maybe apply the pin/technique harder. You would be doing them a favour too.

grondahl
11-02-2011, 04:30 AM
I have trained with people that uses the tap as a way to signal that the lock "is on" but personally I reserve the tap for when I need tori to let go of the lock/technique etc.

Tim Ruijs
11-02-2011, 04:31 AM
I would say first allow your tori to do the exercise and get the global flow of the technique. THen graudally add more details to focus on. One of which can be the pin. Off course when tori is (supposed to be more) advanced, your expectation can differ. But it really depends on what the focus is of tori.

But when intend is there to do a proper pin and then you feel something is wrong, I think it is your role as aite to point that out and help tori to understand where things fail.

Mark Freeman
11-02-2011, 04:31 AM
Hi Franziska,

the way I have learnt to pin on the completion of the ikkyo exercise, there is no need for uke to tap out as there is no pain being applied to tap out of. It is relatively easy to immobalise uke in this position. Of course if uke struggles to try and get up, it is also easy to rest the shin bone just above the elbow (there is a nerve there, which if contacted will definitely induce a tap!)...no more struggling.

Why the need to tap anyway? if you are face down on the floor...isn't that enough?

regards,

Mark

SeiserL
11-02-2011, 04:45 AM
IMHO, if you are not feeling challenged, you are not paying attention.

tiachica
11-02-2011, 05:48 AM
Thank you to all of you for your comments, which I will try and implement in my next class. I think part of my question resulted from the specific focus in my class on this pin, so apologies if I have made myself misunderstood.

I take offense at the implication that I do not pay enough attention if as an Uke I have issues with the Ikkajo pin. So with all respect, I now understand a little more why there is such a strained atmosphere in this forum. As this is an internet site, written words are easily misinterpreted or misunderstood, so I'll step aside for a moment.

I appreciate everybody's insight, which has improved my understanding on what's happening during the technique.

Amir Krause
11-02-2011, 05:49 AM
Not sure on the situation, too may variables

* Purpose: a lock is not a break utilizing leverage. a lock is aimed at controlling the other person for a short duration.
* Knowledge & experiance of Uke: a beginner is often given more lee-way in order not to hurt him
* Knowledge & experiance of Tori: Does he really know how to correctly perfrom the technique in given situaiton and speed, with safety?

At lease where I train, people may talk and ask, so, tell your momentery partner you do not feel any preason to tap, and listen to his response.

Example, after praticing for quite a few years ( >20) in several techniques I know I reached the leverage point, with or without tapping. I then adjust my technique to the spirit of current practice is implied by Sensei, and to my Uke.
In some specific techniques, such as Hiji-Jime, I often prefer to apply the lock in in such a way, that Uke bending down, would alsmot remove the pressure on his elbow. And I reduce own height very slowly, and then stop. If Uke asks about the lock, I ask him/her to try and get up, and then find out the leverage is exact and working. I know in a real need, I would have accelerated my actions and then Uke would have been in a break before he had time to go down, but why should I damage his elbows in practice?
Similarly, in Ikkyo, I adjust speed and intensity to Uke, in particular since Korindo variation of this technique inplies direct pressue on the jiont while taking Uke down.

Amir

Shadowfax
11-02-2011, 07:25 AM
The pin in ikkyo does not have a pain component unless you are like me and tend to find that little yonkyo spot on the back of the arm by the elbow...

If you can't get up then you tap out. Tapping out is not just for when there is pain it indicates to your pattern that the technique is complete. Very well executed pins and techniques don't hurt unless you fight them and until you learn your limits and are able to take good ukemi you should not be fighting techniques because that can get you injured.

When in doubt ask your sensei during the class so he can show you what you should be looking for and doing.

robin_jet_alt
11-02-2011, 08:45 AM
When it comes to the ikkyo pin (or ikkajo... you do yoshinkan?), I have trained in places where they definitely manage to put it on so that it hurts and you need to tap out. However I don't think this is usual. I would say it is normally just a pin, and it is meant to immobilize but not necessarily cause pain. I think whether you tap when you feel you have been immobilized or not depends on the dojo and the style.

I certainly understand where you are coming from when you say you are not feeling challenged as uke. I have trained at a number of dojos, and at some of them they didn't particularly focus on ukemi, and they weren't used to training with people who were reasonably flexible and could maintain their balance. I think how you approach this depends on the person. Some people love the challenge and appreciate it when you can help them polish their technique. Others get frustrated and annoyed at you for "messing up" their technique. I find that with the latter category it is often better to just grit your teeth and fall over or tap for them. It is still frustrating though.

Anjisan
11-02-2011, 09:27 AM
Hi Peter,

yes, I would have trouble to move out of the pin, but I would still have no need to tap?

As long as Uke cannot get up (at least temporarily to assess the situation) the conflict is terminated. If Uke attempts to "get up" and cannot, a Nage in tune with his Uke should notice this, and then let them up.

SeiserL
11-02-2011, 09:43 AM
I take offense at the implication that I do not pay enough attention if as an Uke I have issues with the Ikkajo pin. So with all respect, I now understand a little more why there is such a strained atmosphere in this forum. As this is an internet site, written words are easily misinterpreted or misunderstood, so I'll step aside for a moment.
No offense meant.

I personally find it useful to stay mindful and learn from any position I am in, including accepting the limits of the person I am working with while they are trying to learn.

Perhaps the limits of what challenge them is met before the limits that challenge you.

They are training and learning too.

IMHO, a lot of really nice people who take Aikido tend to be a bit more cautious on their throws and pins than I would prefer.

This is where I practice patience and compassion and realize that its not all about me.

Again, no offense meant.

Janet Rosen
11-02-2011, 10:17 AM
Franzisca, I partner w/ a good number of beginners, and find that very often they were told by others, as you seem to have been, "tap when it hurts."
The thing is, my goal in pinning is not to create pain. It's to create adequate control so that the person being pinned either cannot roll/stand/wiggle out of the pin or feels so bound up he has no desire to try to roll/stand/wiggle out. Any pain would result from his efforts to do so, not from his acceptance of the lock.
So I always ask, "OK, can you get up? no? Then please tap out otherwise we will sit here all night...."

mathewjgano
11-02-2011, 10:51 AM
Hi Peter,

yes, I would have trouble to move out of the pin, but I would still have no need to tap?

It's already been said, but I'd like to add to the idea that it doesn't need to hurt to be effective. Also, Ikkyo is a tough pin in my experience. With senior deshi I'm pinned pretty well, but against many other people I usually feel like I'm not completely immobilized, although I'm well behind in position/timing. I usually tap when I sense some degree of this, based on who I am training with...although I prefer the nice stretch that comes from a good pin (ikkyo in particular is great for fixing any neck and shoulder aches I might have) so I try to wait for the need to tap, but if it doesn't come and I can't tell any technical poblems to suggest, I tap to move on. Often, tori will ask me to try to get up in order to check themselves. As uke, I'm always trying to enter through the connection though so it's usually obvious to both people how much slack I have...
...perhaps, to some degree, if tori doesn't know the pin is insufficient, it's because uke isn't applying themselves properly. On some level we have to let tori do the technique, particularly if they have something definite to work on, but if uke is applying the proper pressure, it should be somewhat obvious to both parties I think.

kewms
11-02-2011, 11:12 AM
Who are you working with?

If I were working with another black belt, I would get up if I could. If I couldn't, I would tap whether it hurt or not. If you're flat on your stomach and immobilized, you're pretty much at the mercy of whatever nage wants to do. Why encourage him to hurt you?

If I were working with a beginner and didn't feel I was pinned adequately, I would walk them through some suggestions for a more effective pin.

Katherine

phitruong
11-02-2011, 11:16 AM
So I always ask, "OK, can you get up? no? Then please tap out otherwise we will sit here all night...."

what if you hear snoring? would you still sit there all night? :)

Janet Rosen
11-02-2011, 12:42 PM
what if you hear snoring? would you still sit there all night? :)

If uke relaxes enough to be snoring, uke makes a lovely full size mattress for a long nap!:)