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Tenyu
10-27-2011, 09:12 AM
Here's two of the deepest and most powerful performances ever recorded on film yet barely viewed.

Marian Anderson - Crucifixion (http://youtu.be/fTiZNN7udG4)

Georgia Louis - Can't Keep From Crying (http://youtu.be/hJnhN_JJ2r0)

Pure Eternal manifest.

-Tenyu

mathewjgano
10-27-2011, 10:12 AM
Here's two of the deepest and most powerful performances ever recorded on film yet barely viewed.

Marian Anderson - Crucifixion (http://youtu.be/fTiZNN7udG4)

Georgia Louis - Can't Keep From Crying (http://youtu.be/hJnhN_JJ2r0)

Pure Eternal manifest.

-Tenyu

Powerful voices! Beautiful. Thank you.

mathewjgano
10-27-2011, 05:58 PM
Sioux:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rITqC53PyJ4
My people the Crow:
(Two examples of the same song)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYKvHBfMMpM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmuoSlDgBwA

mathewjgano
10-29-2011, 10:43 AM
More:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9frmZcFUgdA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcPm0S_K6XM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4WBnss7l0
I think the last one is my favorite.
One of the things that has always attracted me to the Shinto perspective is how closely it seems to relate to my Native American roots with regard to Great Nature.

Tenyu
10-30-2011, 08:54 AM
I never thought about a similarity between Japanese and Indian ceremonial songs before but I can definitely hear a shared set of cantometrics as you mention. My interest is mainly in black gospel which I consider the pinnacle of Western culture and history to be precise. It's impossible for me to imagine a more uniquely beautiful and dynamic, non-impersonal expression than some of the post-war recording artifacts that exist. It directly informs and guides my Aikido. I'm in the process of archiving some of the rarer Golden Era (1940's, 50's and 60's) records which I'll link here later on.

Tenyu
11-07-2011, 08:42 PM
It's my honor to present one of the most significant kotodama groups of all time. The Harmonizing Four of Richmond Virginia formed in 1927 and were active into the 1970's. They were invited to sing at President Franklin Roosevelt's funeral in 1945. The lead tenor Thomas Johnson is the gentleman with glasses in the front row of the first picture. Recorded 57 years ago 'before our time' but resonating free from time. As sweet as enlightenment can be:

Amazing Grace (http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOftheStaff#p/u/0/h6N6WcRagBc)

Tenyu

MM
11-08-2011, 06:32 AM
None of what has been posted is kotodama. You can call it music. Singing. Beautiful sounds. Screeching noise. Illustrious talent. Mumbo jumbo. But it is most definitely not kotodama. If you're likening pleasant sounds that resonate within you as kotodama, you should take a deeper look into kotodama.

Listening to resonating, pleasing, harmonious sounds are not kotodama.

First, it's completely backwards thinking. Listening does not bring about kotodama any more than watching birds lets you fly.

Second, it's doing exactly nothing in manifesting something. Yeah, you get a nice, comfy, warm feeling, but hey, if I stand outside in the winter in zero degree weather with just jeans and a t-shirt, I can pee my pants and get a nice warm fuzzy feeling. Doesn't really do any good, though. I'm still going to be cold, I'm still outside in winter. I'm still not wearing warm clothes to protect me from the elements. Nothing manifested except a temporary warm, fuzzy feeling.

Third, it's about you doing something to manifest a change in reality. If there is no change outside of you, there is no kotodama. Why do you think people called it "mysterious" or "superstitious" or having "power"? You think singing is mysterious or superstitious or have power? Does singing manifest a change in reality? Does listening to singing do any of that? Not including giving people warm, fuzzy feelings. We've already covered that.

Fourth, you can sing, chant, talk, yell, scream, whisper, and write all day long but that doesn't make it kotodama. You can listen to singing, chanting, talking, yelling, screaming, whispering, and see writing all day long but that doesn't make it kotodama. The question you have to ask yourself while doing any of that is, "Is what I'm doing manifesting a mysterious, powerful change in reality?" If all it's giving you is warm, fuzzy feelings, the answer is no. If you can't answer with a resounding yes, then what you're doing isn't kotodama.

Tenyu
11-08-2011, 11:28 AM
You already know ad homs are not a good way to start an ‘argument’. You can do better than that. Of course I read your denial of peak oil in another thread outside of the actual peak oil thread but I’m responding now because this is much more important than mere collapse of civilization.

These masters of kotodama had an immeasurable influence on reality. I assumed most people already know this but I understand education in universities is rarely holistic. I’ve spent a lot of time myself experiencing live ministries in black churches, my knowledge is direct as well as academic. Gospel has always risen from a matter of life and death on various levels, many of these men and women, both known and unknown treasures of American history, would not have survived without the power of the Lord. To me the power has become self evident because I’ve been blessed and welcomed into many churches, but there’s also plenty of written documentation on how gospel artists were able to prevent being lynched. One elder still alive personally told me how his quartet was surrounded by an angry mob of Ku Klux Klan yet ‘mysteriously’ let go without even a beating, and during a time when the KKK got away with doing so. These masters of kotodama manifest Aikido at the highest level.

Tenyu
11-08-2011, 08:48 PM
Never before presented on the internet, I've archived a historic masterpiece recorded 47 years ago on Chicago television by the Norfleet Brothers. A perfect example of multiple nages celebrating in harmonic concert.

Live The Life (http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOftheStaff#p/u/0/B2tVynkeuoA)

Tenyu

Joe McParland
11-09-2011, 05:16 AM
[...] Third, it's about you doing something to manifest a change in reality. If there is no change outside of you, there is no kotodama.


Where did this sentence come from?!

MM
11-09-2011, 08:11 AM
These masters of kotodama had an immeasurable influence on reality. I assumed most people already know this but I understand education in universities is rarely holistic. I've spent a lot of time myself experiencing live ministries in black churches, my knowledge is direct as well as academic. Gospel has always risen from a matter of life and death on various levels, many of these men and women, both known and unknown treasures of American history, would not have survived without the power of the Lord. To me the power has become self evident because I've been blessed and welcomed into many churches, but there's also plenty of written documentation on how gospel artists were able to prevent being lynched. One elder still alive personally told me how his quartet was surrounded by an angry mob of Ku Klux Klan yet ‘mysteriously' let go without even a beating, and during a time when the KKK got away with doing so. These masters of kotodama manifest Aikido at the highest level.

They are not masters of kotodama. Period. What they have accomplished is besides the theme of this thread.

Academically, you are incorrect. You do not have "direct" knowledge. You have secondary knowledge. No amount of being invited, listening to, amassing files will ever give you "direct" knowledge.

Nor are these people manifesting Ueshiba's aikido at any level. Period. They may, and I emphasize may, be approaching aikido per Kisshomaru's view, but even then, I suspect not.

You can say that you've amassed video of people wearing aluminum foil hats and chanting mahna mahna to keep the aliens from taking over their mind, you can sit and listen to them tell you how they have narrowly escaped being an alien puppet, you can record their wondrous chanting which resonates deep within you -- But at no time are these people doing kotodama, manifesting aikido at the highest levels, nor would you have direct experiences, and finally, nor would any of the above make it true.

MM
11-09-2011, 08:13 AM
Where did this sentence come from?!

Me. It is the underlying bedrock of kotodama.

Marc Abrams
11-09-2011, 08:38 AM
You can say that you've amassed video of people wearing aluminum foil hats and chanting mahna mahna to keep the aliens from taking over their mind, you can sit and listen to them tell you how they have narrowly escaped being an alien puppet, you can record their wondrous chanting which resonates deep within you -- But at no time are these people doing kotodama, manifesting aikido at the highest levels, nor would you have direct experiences, and finally, nor would any of the above make it true.

Mark:

That is it! The head of the American Kotodama Association is now targeting you! Beware! :eek: :eek: :eek:

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tin-foil-hat.jpg

Marc Abrams

Tenyu
11-09-2011, 10:31 AM
They are not masters of kotodama. Period. What they have accomplished is besides the theme of this thread.

Academically, you are incorrect. You do not have "direct" knowledge. You have secondary knowledge. No amount of being invited, listening to, amassing files will ever give you "direct" knowledge.

Nor are these people manifesting Ueshiba's aikido at any level. Period. They may, and I emphasize may, be approaching aikido per Kisshomaru's view, but even then, I suspect not.

You can say that you've amassed video of people wearing aluminum foil hats and chanting mahna mahna to keep the aliens from taking over their mind, you can sit and listen to them tell you how they have narrowly escaped being an alien puppet, you can record their wondrous chanting which resonates deep within you -- But at no time are these people doing kotodama, manifesting aikido at the highest levels, nor would you have direct experiences, and finally, nor would any of the above make it true.

I'm a member of a private collective of international scholars, published authors, doctorate professors on American history and religious studies which I communicate with daily. This common ‘perspective' of yours and Billy Bob, Bobby Jo, Jo Billy, Harold, Bobby Sue, Bobby Jean, Jeannie Sue is well documented and ironically a topic of recent discussion. It's typically referred to as racism in the history books but it's nothing more than simple ignorance and inexperience. You don't know what kotodama really is, what religion is, what Aiki is. Instead of attempting to write a book on them you would first need to get a basic understanding of comparative religion. Considering the ad hom nature of your posts, I suspect you'll further entrench yourself in reality-negating mythologies so prevalent and encouraged in society. You're welcome to continue posting ad homs though, it illuminates something.

mathewjgano
11-09-2011, 10:56 AM
First, it's completely backwards thinking. Listening does not bring about kotodama any more than watching birds lets you fly.

Where is this suggested?

Second, it's doing exactly nothing in manifesting something. Yeah, you get a nice, comfy, warm feeling, but hey, if I stand outside in the winter in zero degree weather with just jeans and a t-shirt, I can pee my pants and get a nice warm fuzzy feeling. Doesn't really do any good, though. I'm still going to be cold, I'm still outside in winter. I'm still not wearing warm clothes to protect me from the elements. Nothing manifested except a temporary warm, fuzzy feeling.
How do you know that?

Third, it's about you doing something to manifest a change in reality. If there is no change outside of you, there is no kotodama. Why do you think people called it "mysterious" or "superstitious" or having "power"? You think singing is mysterious or superstitious or have power? Does singing manifest a change in reality? Does listening to singing do any of that? Not including giving people warm, fuzzy feelings. We've already covered that.

Fourth, you can sing, chant, talk, yell, scream, whisper, and write all day long but that doesn't make it kotodama. You can listen to singing, chanting, talking, yelling, screaming, whispering, and see writing all day long but that doesn't make it kotodama. The question you have to ask yourself while doing any of that is, "Is what I'm doing manifesting a mysterious, powerful change in reality?" If all it's giving you is warm, fuzzy feelings, the answer is no. If you can't answer with a resounding yes, then what you're doing isn't kotodama.

2,3, and 4 seem to be the same basic thing: regardless of the sound made, if it's not changing something it's not kototama. If you want to make the argument that this isn't "kototama" because it's not in the Japanese tradition of Kototama, then I can see that. You seem to know more about these singers and the effect of their singing than is humanly possible though. "I doubt this is" is quite different than "I know this is not."

My sense of this thread was that it was to give an example of words with power and didn't take the title too seriously. If it's simply an effect you want, well, they had an effect on me, although perhaps it's not the correct kind of effect?
I believe matters of spirit are best left for the individual to ascertain, and it is folly to make hard assertions on what other people perceive/intuit about it. Again, if you want to make the argument it's not kototama because it's not Japanese, or something similar, I can buy that. You cannot know whether there is an effect manifest from these sounds. Perhaps you could give an example of real kototama and make sure to show us the effect it generates/generated?

MM
11-09-2011, 11:16 AM
I'm a member of a private collective of international scholars, published authors, doctorate professors on American history and religious studies which I communicate with daily. This common ‘perspective' of yours and Billy Bob, Bobby Jo, Jo Billy, Harold, Bobby Sue, Bobby Jean, Jeannie Sue is well documented and ironically a topic of recent discussion. It's typically referred to as racism in the history books but it's nothing more than simple ignorance and inexperience. You don't know what kotodama really is, what religion is, what Aiki is. Instead of attempting to write a book on them you would first need to get a basic understanding of comparative religion. Considering the ad hom nature of your posts, I suspect you'll further entrench yourself in reality-negating mythologies so prevalent and encouraged in society. You're welcome to continue posting ad homs though, it illuminates something.

You know, Michael A. Bellesiles was a professor at a university. He was a member of a collective of international scholars, published authors, doctorate professors, etc. But, none of that made him right. And in fact, it was a software engineer who actually knew more than Bellesiles did. Just because you form a group, put initials after your name, and communicate daily, doesn't mean you are right. Of course, calling me a racist, ignorant, and inexperienced for disagreeing with you is not exactly the best way to handle matters. I'll leave you to your music...

MM
11-09-2011, 11:25 AM
Where is this suggested?

How do you know that?

2,3, and 4 seem to be the same basic thing: regardless of the sound made, if it's not changing something it's not kototama. If you want to make the argument that this isn't "kototama" because it's not in the Japanese tradition of Kototama, then I can see that. You seem to know more about these singers and the effect of their singing than is humanly possible though. "I doubt this is" is quite different than "I know this is not."

My sense of this thread was that it was to give an example of words with power and didn't take the title too seriously. If it's simply an effect you want, well, they had an effect on me, although perhaps it's not the correct kind of effect?
I believe matters of spirit are best left for the individual to ascertain, and it is folly to make hard assertions on what other people perceive/intuit about it. Again, if you want to make the argument it's not kototama because it's not Japanese, or something similar, I can buy that. You cannot know whether there is an effect manifest from these sounds. Perhaps you could give an example of real kototama and make sure to show us the effect it generates/generated?

Hi Matthew,
I'll leave you and the readers to your (plural) own research and experiences. What has been listed in this thread isn't kotodama, Japanese or otherwise. What you do with that information is up to you. :) You can either believe me or not.

mathewjgano
11-09-2011, 12:10 PM
Hi Matthew,
I'll leave you and the readers to your (plural) own research and experiences. What has been listed in this thread isn't kotodama, Japanese or otherwise. What you do with that information is up to you. :) You can either believe me or not.

I did ask some questions in the hopes of researching the matter more thoroughly. Right now, you're just telling me I don't know. I more or less knew that already. :D
I have only seen somewhat vague descriptions for what constitutes kototama, this is why I'm asking for either a concrete example or further distinction on what you mean by "effect."
...or any further distinction you could make which would show me exactly why this is certainly not kototama. And to be clear, I am not asserting it is. Like I said, I took the thread title to be used with some looseness in application. However, since the idea has been put forward, I'd like to understand it better...maybe it needs its own thread?
Looking in Sensei Gleason's book Aikido and Words of Power (on my Kindle) it says,
Kototama = Word soul; the spirit of words; mana; the mani jewel, symbolized by prayer beads in Christianity, Buddhism, and Shinto.
In one chapter he says,
It is from kototama, which translates as "the souls of words," that the innate sensibilities of language and thought are created. The kototama, however, should not be seen as a tool for dividing people or distinguishing one race from another. As the root of thought itself, and therefore of all spoken language, it is a tool for understanding our common origins and ultimate unity.
The kototama is not a theory or even a teaching. It is the life energy, or ki, that gives birth to consciousness in all its myriad forms.

Would you be willing to describe how the above is incompatible with what has been presented in this thread?

The Kototama Principle holds that the essence of humanity
manifests as language; creating art, science, social intercourse, philosophy and medicine; and that the human can attune to the order and logic of the
Creative Force.
From http://www.nltclinic.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=75
Reading further down I'm a bit uncertain about how good a document it is since it speaks of only four elementary particles in Chemistry, but this is the first thing I found.

Kotodama or kototama (言霊?, lit. "word spirit/soul") refers to the Japanese belief that mystical powers dwell in words and names.
Not the best for source material, but if it is correct, and we can apply this outside of the "Japanese" experience, then to me it seems to at least come close to applying.

hughrbeyer
11-09-2011, 01:38 PM
FYI, Mark has yet to make an ad hominem remark in this thread. If you disagree, start by checking what the term really means. Hint, it's not "Stuff I don't like."

Tenyu
11-09-2011, 06:25 PM
True, I took his denigration of black religion, a cultural peak of Western history, personally as I should. It's embarrassing to see on any forum, an Aikido forum, unconsciously racist descriptions stereotypical of an uneducated hillbilly. I can sympathize with the ignorance, not with the arrogance, even if the former's responsible for it. There's a thin veneer surrounding the "Aiki" following as many witness ad nauseam, it's been well propagated as the truth and it's not harming anyone but I've never been fooled by it. My work speaks for itself, O Sensei's work speaks for itself, whether anyone on this forum can appreciate it is irrelevant to what the truth is.

mathewjgano
11-09-2011, 07:05 PM
He didn't denigrate African American religion even remotely that I could see. He said the gospel music wasn't kototama. We still don't know quite what his qualification for the remark is. Calling him an uneducated hillbilly does nothing to arrive at an understanding...and I'd say it at best only achieves the pot calling the kettle "a receptacle for water."

hughrbeyer
11-09-2011, 08:44 PM
True, I took his denigration of black religion, a cultural peak of Western history, personally as I should. It's embarrassing to see on any forum, an Aikido forum, unconsciously racist descriptions stereotypical of an uneducated hillbilly. I can sympathize with the ignorance, not with the arrogance, even if the former's responsible for it. There's a thin veneer surrounding the "Aiki" following as many witness ad nauseam, it's been well propagated as the truth and it's not harming anyone but I've never been fooled by it. My work speaks for itself, O Sensei's work speaks for itself, whether anyone on this forum can appreciate it is irrelevant to what the truth is.

Oh my. Your work does indeed speak for itself. I don't think I have anything I can usefully add to this.

MM
11-10-2011, 06:33 AM
He didn't denigrate African American religion even remotely that I could see. He said the gospel music wasn't kototama. We still don't know quite what his qualification for the remark is. Calling him an uneducated hillbilly does nothing to arrive at an understanding...and I'd say it at best only achieves the pot calling the kettle "a receptacle for water."

Hi Matthew,
I made no mention of the quality of the music presented. Nowhere did I denigrate anything provided by anyone on this thread. I stated that none of it was kotodama. I appreciate your taking the time to further investigate why I wouldn't consider it kotodama, but, unfortunately, I won't go into kotodama on the web.

I'm perfectly happy if people reading this thread think I'm wrong. I'm fine with letting my statement stand for people reading to understand that not everyone thinks singing or chanting is kotodama. It's a bit of a logic puzzle. Singing and chanting do not equal kotodama. However, kotodama can equal singing and chanting.

Mark

Mark Freeman
11-10-2011, 09:08 AM
True, I took his denigration of black religion, a cultural peak of Western history, personally as I should. It's embarrassing to see on any forum, an Aikido forum, unconsciously racist descriptions stereotypical of an uneducated hillbilly. I can sympathize with the ignorance, not with the arrogance, even if the former's responsible for it. There's a thin veneer surrounding the "Aiki" following as many witness ad nauseam, it's been well propagated as the truth and it's not harming anyone but I've never been fooled by it. My work speaks for itself, O Sensei's work speaks for itself, whether anyone on this forum can appreciate it is irrelevant to what the truth is.

I wasn't going to comment on this as it seems to me so absurd, that I will be wasting good pixels.

Like others, I do not see where "black religion" was denigrated, and anyway what is black religion when it's at home? I am aware that people of different races practice different religions, but that is the first time I have ever seen a religion that has been given a specific colour!!

neither did I see an ad hom attack on you. You however, start launching into stereotyping hillbillies and their ignorance.

Your words and work do speak for you Tenyu.

This is only a personal opinion of mine, but no religion, black or otherwise would qualify for the title of 'a cultural peak of western history'

regards

Mark

akiy
11-10-2011, 09:22 AM
I don't see this thread going anywhere positive at this point.

Thread closed.

-- Jun