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Chris Evans
10-25-2011, 09:13 AM
"...Yes there is kicking and punching in Aikido.....In the 1950s/60s all Kenshiro Abbe Sensei's Aikido classes began with 30mins hard kicking and punching exercises. and 200 pushups on the back of the wrists..."

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/2009/0...l-contact.html

wow, what happened to Aikido? Old Aikido sounds a lot like Hapkido.
200's push-up's pretty good, but on wrists! cool.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2011, 09:16 AM
wow, what happened to Aikido?

Hippies happened.

grondahl
10-25-2011, 09:38 AM
How come none of the training fotage from the earlier days in Japan displays any kicking and punching practice?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2011, 09:51 AM
There are kicks (at least one iirc) in "Budo Renshu", also punches and kicks in '50s manuals like the ones published by Minoru Mochizuki and by Tadashi Abe (in this one there are headbutts in the clinch too).

MM
10-25-2011, 09:53 AM
How come none of the training fotage from the earlier days in Japan displays any kicking and punching practice?

Shioda makes mention that he was thinking about hitting Ueshiba with an uppercut during his last test. Just because there are no videos, does not mean it didn't happen. :D

Anthony Loeppert
10-25-2011, 09:58 AM
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/2009/0...l-contact.html


The link is broken fyi.

grondahl
10-25-2011, 10:03 AM
There is also a chance of Shioda being aware of the uppercut without the uppercut ever being a part of regular training.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2011, 10:10 AM
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/noooma.jpg/

Ueshiba strike in the first pic looks 'uppercutish' to me.

grondahl
10-25-2011, 10:15 AM
But its still a part of a technique. That kihon waza includes atemi is not exactly proof of regular drilling of kicks and punches as an exercise in itself.

Mark Freeman
10-25-2011, 10:45 AM
"...Yes there is kicking and punching in Aikido.....In the 1950s/60s all Kenshiro Abbe Sensei's Aikido classes began with 30mins hard kicking and punching exercises. and 200 pushups on the back of the wrists..."

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/2009/0...l-contact.html

wow, what happened to Aikido? Old Aikido sounds a lot like Hapkido.
200's push-up's pretty good, but on wrists! cool.

Hi Chris,

my teacher was there, and was Abbe Sensei's first Aikido student in 1955. He still sometimes refers back to the hard training that he went through. I'm not sure that every class was so focussed on hard kicking and punching exercises (I'll ask him directly next time I see him) on the warm up.

I do know that at 80 years of age with 2 artificial hips and an artificial knee, both of which he puts down to the severity of the practice, he is not so inclined to agree with you that it is cool to wreck the one precious body we have unneccessarily, through overly hard training.

As good as Abbe Sensei was (and from all accounts from those who had first hand experience of him, he was very good). His teaching method was not the best. He left the UK quite unhappy that many in both Judo and aikido did not 'get' what he was trying to teach them. He had his own philosophy "Kyu-shin-do" borne out of his own exposure to and study of multiple arts and his own spiritual leanings. Not many who trained with him got anywhere near incorporating this into their practice. Some even went off and started attaching the name to an art itself. Which is just plain wrong, but I'm sure that it happens all the time in many different spheres of endeavour.

Anyway, teaching and training methods change over time, hopefully they get better, but not always.

regards,

Mark

graham christian
10-25-2011, 12:57 PM
Chris, my two penneth.

Firstly Aikido is not primarily a striking art, emphasis primarily.

Secondly, as I was taught, low kicking was part and parcel of practice. The main reason it was done was to get you used to ma-ai. It also had a secondary reason which was to be looked at as no different to atemi. Thus there are low points which can be 'attacked' and thus usually by your foot. I'm sure if you look these points up in the annuls of Aikido terminology you will come across them.

I was also taught that the movements tracing back through samurai times etc. would rule out much high kicking as there is nothing more tasty to a sword wielding samurai than a nice extended leg. So be it. Food for thought.

So in conclusion I would say there is no reason why you couldn't use your feet in such a way but it all depends when, why, and how. It wouldn't however be a primary part of Aikido.

O.k. ended up three penneth.

Regards.G.

Chris Evans
10-25-2011, 01:02 PM
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

then do a Find for "kick"

Chris Evans
10-25-2011, 01:15 PM
Chris, my two penneth.

...movements tracing back through samurai times etc. would rule out much high kicking as there is nothing more tasty to a sword wielding samurai than a nice extended leg....

As much as I like to kick, i would not kick high to a felon wielding a knife, a bat, or a knife, etc., and I've learn not to try that to amateur UFC MMA "fighters" either, or to anyone really a threat. Kick are good for feints or as closing the distance, esp,.when aimed low and hard, ex. round (mawahshi) shin kick to knee or a fast turn-back kick to groin. First you lean the tools than (hopefully) you learn when to incorporate.

Would be nice to find an Aikido dojo that can integrate some practical karate, that has the intensity and ernestness of MMA, but I know I am dreaming.

graham christian
10-25-2011, 01:52 PM
You're not dreaming. I'm sure there's some out there.

Regards.G.

Dave de Vos
10-25-2011, 01:56 PM
..."In the 1950s/60s all Kenshiro Abbe Sensei's Aikido classes began with 30mins hard kicking and punching exercises. and 200 pushups on the back of the wrists..."
...
200's push-up's pretty good, but on wrists! cool.

I do know that at 80 years of age with 2 artificial hips and an artificial knee, both of which he puts down to the severity of the practice, he is not so inclined to agree with you that it is cool to wreck the one precious body we have unneccessarily, through overly hard training.


I've heard similar stories of martial artists who trained very hard when they were young, only to regret it as they grew older, because their joints sustained permanent damage from it, causing chronic diseases like arthritis later in life.

It's kind of ironic that training very hard to you protect yourself from violence may do more damage than you're likely to ever sustain from violence.

graham christian
10-25-2011, 02:06 PM
I've heard similar stories of martial artists who trained very hard when they were young, only to regret it as they grew older, because their joints sustained permanent damage from it, causing chronic diseases like arthritis later in life.

It's kind of ironic that training very hard to you protect yourself from violence may do more damage than you're likely to ever sustain from violence.

Well put. I call it bad training. Now lot's of people may feel I'm wrong there but so be it. It's been a source of interest and sometimes frustration over the years to watch a stream of people coming for advice on such things. The frustration is that they only learn in retrospect. We're all guilty of that to varying degrees.

Regards.G.

gregstec
10-25-2011, 03:23 PM
Shioda makes mention that he was thinking about hitting Ueshiba with an uppercut during his last test. Just because there are no videos, does not mean it didn't happen. :D

I think it is very evident it did not happen - after all, Shioda lived to mention he thought about :D

Greg

philipsmith
10-25-2011, 04:26 PM
I agree with alot of the things mentioned in the thread.

For example we used to train without regard to our bodies (bad!), but were also taught striking drills in order that we could deliver a correct attack. In fact I still do these drills - especially with juniors.

Just one other thing; INMHO Aikido is a striking art in that as Tori we should always be in a position to strike Uke. The fact that we don't makes it Aiki DO rather than Aiki jutsu.

lbb
10-25-2011, 09:16 PM
I learned my striking skills in a striking art. If you want to develop striking skills, look elsewhere than aikido. Look to a striking art where people actually strike, not where the theoretical possibility for striking exists -- it's the only way you will practice and develop proficiency at it.

Lee Salzman
10-25-2011, 09:39 PM
I learned my striking skills in a striking art. If you want to develop striking skills, look elsewhere than aikido. Look to a striking art where people actually strike, not where the theoretical possibility for striking exists -- it's the only way you will practice and develop proficiency at it.

What's a striking art, anyways? Striking is basically just power exiting you and entering them, and in actuality, not just theoretically, that's everywhere in aikido. The problem is just that modern aikido seems to be teaching people how to collapse away from someone else, rather than generate power into them. In a way, that's half of what all the nonsense about internal strength is about lately, just learning to strike with any part of the body, be it your upper thigh or your hip or your fist. That's entering in a nutshell, and perhaps our art has lost the ability to teach this well at all. Maybe we are, as a community, prone to misinterpret the oft-quoted "aikido is X% atemi" in lowest-common-denominator fashion as to just mean nicking someone with your knuckles. It's just a sad state of affairs that now we must go outside of aikido to learn what was specifically there in the first place and then lost to who knows.

lbb
10-26-2011, 09:23 AM
Lee, I agree with what you say about body mechanics, but if someone never gets out of the ivory tower, how effective do you think they will ever be in practice -- any practice? Being able to recite the company line about power and aiki and whatsis does not equate to being able to strike effectively. I know the way that karateka learn how to punch effectively, but I doubt that anyone within aikido would ever use those methods.

Lee Salzman
10-26-2011, 12:23 PM
Lee, I agree with what you say about body mechanics, but if someone never gets out of the ivory tower, how effective do you think they will ever be in practice -- any practice? Being able to recite the company line about power and aiki and whatsis does not equate to being able to strike effectively. I know the way that karateka learn how to punch effectively, but I doubt that anyone within aikido would ever use those methods.

Yah, of course. You gotta test it in reality, the question is just with what? Learning to hit stuff with your fists can teach you a lot if you use it as an opportunity to learn how to get your whole body into your fist, or it can just teach you how to hit with a fist disconnected from your body. Learning to kick with the whole body behind the leg is also extremely valuable and can teach you a lot about how to simply just walk with power behind your steps rather than the standard shift balance forward way.

But, on the other hand, does it have to be an arm or a leg? Wasn't O'Sensei really fond of stabbing his jo into trees and what-not? Learning to drive power down the shaft of a spear would seem like it has a lot in common with driving power into the shaft of one's forearm and one's fist (or one's leg). Certain sorts of strikes like shomen or yokomen with jo or bokken also might have a lot in relation to the action of the reciprocal sides of the body acting to generate punches or strikes (could be viewed as rotation or counter-extension, whatever flavor floats your boat). At least in the pole-shaking training I have been shown, the mechanics are extremely similar.

I would thus think weapons training could also allow one to test the effectiveness of one's coordination if you are testing against real targets/resistance and not just swatting at the air. But when it comes to weapons training, I am really ignorant about higher level aspects of it since it was absent in just about all of the aikido passed down to me or when present just the wacky-sticks variety, and what I can do is sort of brutishly reverse engineered from learning how to punch or kick effectively. :)

phitruong
10-26-2011, 12:47 PM
it's fine with kicking and punching, but what about screaming? nobody mentioned anything about screaming. just wanted to note that i was the first one who mentioned here about SCREAMING. i mean...and i mean. i sit here on the bench reading aikiweb and nothing on screaming. aikido could use good screaming. we should just scream "KILL! KILL! " along with jumping up and down. i think it would do us some good. :D

*for those who didn't understand the reference, go search on Alice's Restaurant and Arlo*

Janet Rosen
10-26-2011, 01:15 PM
we should just scream "KILL! KILL! " along with jumping up and down. i think it would do us some good. :D
*for those who didn't understand the reference, go search on Alice's Restaurant and Arlo*

I want the aikido book with the circles and arrows on the back.

Andrew S
10-26-2011, 03:02 PM
Hmmm...
My first aikido teacher, one Yoshimura Sensei in Nagoya, had a set tanto-dori technique for shodan grading. Part of it included delivering a mawashi-geri to the attacker as you entered.

Kobayshi Sensei demonstrated omote ikkyo from shomen-uchi, delivering a kick to the face of the attacker at the completion of kuzushi, or raking the leg (variation of a kick)

And plenty of sempai have told me as uke to "keep your free hand ready to block the strike" (a lesson not forgotten after the strike came) or to "move out of range".

The punches and kicks are in there ("Hidden in plain sight?"), but most aikido teaching methodology wants to focus on not using excessive strength, non-resistance, taisabaki etc., to which powerful striking is seen as counter-productive.

I remember being tasked to "deal with" a couple of new students - former boxing students - who just wanted to stand there and use brute strength. On tenchi-nage, one of them was successfuly defeating my efforts to throw him, but I pointed out that I was in a perfect position to git him a good head-butt,

Tori - watch for openings, and use atemi to create openings, and watch out for strikes.
Uke - keep tori on their toes by striking when they are open, and watch out for strikes yourself.

jurasketu
10-26-2011, 09:22 PM
it's fine with kicking and punching, but what about screaming? nobody mentioned anything about screaming. just wanted to note that i was the first one who mentioned here about SCREAMING. i mean...and i mean. i sit here on the bench reading aikiweb and nothing on screaming. aikido could use good screaming. we should just scream "KILL! KILL! " along with jumping up and down. i think it would do us some good. :D

ROFL - And I thought I was the only one...

While (im)patiently waiting for my turn to attack in group practice, I regularly shout - "Kill! Kill! Kill! ATTACK! ATTACK! ATTACK!".

And as far as kicking goes, I always say that the BEST time to kick someone is when they are already DOWN. So in some sense, Aikido is all about getting someone optimally placed for a KICK.

Robin

sorokod
10-27-2011, 01:44 AM
can't spell KICK without KI

lbb
10-27-2011, 07:35 AM
Yah, of course. You gotta test it in reality, the question is just with what? Learning to hit stuff with your fists can teach you a lot if you use it as an opportunity to learn how to get your whole body into your fist, or it can just teach you how to hit with a fist disconnected from your body.
Not if you're hitting a makiwara, a heavy bag, or another person, it won't. But, again, those are karate methods.

phitruong
10-27-2011, 08:48 AM
And as far as kicking goes, I always say that the BEST time to kick someone is when they are already DOWN. So in some sense, Aikido is all about getting someone optimally placed for a KICK.

Robin

great! a fellow believer in the method of kicking people while they are down. god forbid if we kick folks while they are upright and still have the ability to beat the living daylight out of us. aikido is all about love right? and i love it when i kick folks when they are down; it's safest way. :)

Chris Evans
10-27-2011, 09:22 AM
if Aikido is about "love" then it's about saving "innocent" lives and preventing their deaths or suffering and, perhaps, granting mercy, to those that manifest violence, when they sincerely repent & surrender.

I feel the wisdom of Leonides I more clearly then that of either of Shakyamni or Yahushua (JC).

I wish people stop using the terms "spirtual" and "love" as they are so loaded with prejudices and nebulous notions: show it, not tell it.

back to kicking: kick thier legs, help them drop to the ground (with a throw, if needed), then keep control and if requited, side heel kick their jaw against the ground for a KO while holing on to their hand or wrist, so that you can deal with the others approaching, in a timely manner... that is the practical guideline to the practice of using kicks to save lives. I do the spin heel hook kick to head in a dojo for the fun exercise and to express the 'art", but not likely will use that for real.

sakumeikan
10-27-2011, 10:19 AM
great! a fellow believer in the method of kicking people while they are down. god forbid if we kick folks while they are upright and still have the ability to beat the living daylight out of us. aikido is all about love right? and i love it when i kick folks when they are down; it's safest way. :)

Dear Phi,
I take it you are being flippant here [from the funny face ]?Cheers, Joe.

mathewjgano
10-27-2011, 11:08 AM
Not if you're hitting a makiwara, a heavy bag, or another person, it won't. But, again, those are karate methods.

It definately makes a big difference. A lot of people see people hitting each other in movies and think it's as easy as throwing your fist at them. I had a friend see my heavy bag and say "oh cool!" He gave it one hit and started hopping up and down holding his wrist. I warned him, but not well enough. At my dojo we have padded posts just outside the mat area for hitting, and while it's not something everyone uses, Sensei and the senior deshi use them, which suggests the need for them.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-27-2011, 11:37 AM
Bags hit back.

And yes, there is a serious difference between the strikes of someone used to strike solid things and the "air punchers" ones.

Mark Freeman
10-27-2011, 12:42 PM
Dear Phi,
I take it you are being flippant here [from the funny face ]?Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,

Phi is the eponymous forum jester. He is a valuable resource, ready to use humour to compliment on the one hand and on the other, to prick the bubbles of pomposity, that inevitably rise up in discussions here. I always enjoy his post, as there is often alot of wisdom behind his tongue in cheek delivery. :)

regards,

Mark

mathewjgano
10-27-2011, 02:40 PM
Bags hit back.

And yes, there is a serious difference between the strikes of someone used to strike solid things and the "air punchers" ones.

Especially when you hit them at the very bottom bottom "OUCH!"

lbb
10-28-2011, 03:33 PM
Bags hit back.

Yes. Back in my taekwondo days, we had a saying: "The bag always wins." They hit back, they don't get tired and they don't quit because they're hurt.

I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

Mark Gibbons
10-28-2011, 03:40 PM
..I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

About a third of the places I've visited had heavy bags or makiwara. My home dojo has a nice bag, used mostly by little kids messing around, but that's another problem.

Mark

grondahl
10-28-2011, 03:42 PM
I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

We have wallmounted "makiwara" (not the original wooden pole-type) and a heavy bag in our dojo. And tanrenuchi of course. I think that the heavy bag is far better than makiwara for developing hard strikes, the makiwara seems to be more of a checking/stability-tool.

phitruong
10-28-2011, 04:46 PM
Dear Phi,
I take it you are being flippant here [from the funny face ]?Cheers, Joe.

dear Joe, i am a follower of the way of bu who, for crying out loud, would not kick folks while they are down, at least not too much, unless they deserved it by owing me money and eating my last donut. i can forgive the money, but the donut, not so. a man's last donut is sacred. :D

mathewjgano
10-28-2011, 04:53 PM
dear Joe, i am a follower of the way of bu who, for crying out loud, would not kick folks while they are down, at least not too much, unless they deserved it by owing me money and eating my last donut. i can forgive the money, but the donut, not so. a man's last donut is sacred. :D

I shudder to think if it was jelly-filled or had sprinkles! :eek: Perhaps the person wouldn't be round any more?:p

phitruong
10-28-2011, 05:25 PM
I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

bags and makiwara are ok for some practice. however, hitting a real body is quite different because the body isn't uniformly solid and surfacing. this is where those systema buggers excel. they practice hitting real body and also practice on receiving hits (lots of psychological learning here). few years back, a dan ranked karate guy came and practiced with us. i asked him to punch me and he kept stopping before contact my body. so i told him to really punch me, he just could not get himself to do it. i asked him why? he said at his dojo they were not allowed to touch with any strike. i was a bit astounded. i waved my son over (he's 5'11'' and 180 lbs and if he punches you, you better move) and asked him to hit me. my son shot out his arm and punched me and blew me back a couple of feet. you can hear the sound of flesh striking on flesh across the room. the karate guy eyes were bugging out of his skull. i laughed and said "when i asked you to punch, i wanted you to punch like you can rip my spine out the other side. and if you can't do that, then i don't have the need to do anything." so if you love your partner, then strike like you mean it. better attacks, better defenses. i encountered folks who practiced in striking arts who liked strikes, but didn't particularly know how to handle being strike and fear of it. very strange. :confused:

besides punching and kicking, you got elbow, knee, shoulder, hip, and all the other body part. i got hit with a shoulder strike, at zero inch, by an IS guy, and he blew me off my feet and sent me some distance. i was thinking "damn! i really don't want my body parts anywhere near his body parts". and i am thinking if i have to fight him, i'd be some distance away with a rocket launcher and my chihuahua. luckily i didn't owe him any money or ate his last donut, so i think i am safe at the moment; but just for good measure, i prep my rocket launcher and stop feeding the dog just in case. :)

kewms
10-28-2011, 07:09 PM
I should qualify what I said before, though: heavy bags and makiwara are something that I have never seen in an aikido dojo. But is it okay to have them there? I'd love to have a makiwara to practice strikes on.

We have them, along with focus mitts, as well as helmets and gloves for weapons work.

Is it okay? That would be a question for your organization and/or chief instructor. But if the answer is no, why not?

Katherine

notdrock
02-08-2012, 09:13 PM
I don't think Asian Martial Arts are mean to be so boxed in, like, just because the art doesn't practise much punching or kicking doesn't mean you can't do it. I think in Asia it's just kind of expected you do what you can to save your own life when it's threatened.

I also think punching and kicking isn't as sophisticated as the techniques in Aikido so they don't bother practising it when there's much more useful stuff that needs the time and focus.

I've trained for a long time in a few arts, and I've stuck with one and also recently taken up Aikido to cross train and I tell you now, Aikido is genius. It's a pretty much perfect way to teach someone human anatomy subconciously so you can basically know how all the tendons, bones and muscles connect for you to become basically a puppet master of both yourself and your assailants. Given my research too, I's pretty much bet my life on why and how Aikido was developed this way, especially since the masters did a lot of research on cadavers.

sakumeikan
02-09-2012, 04:43 AM
Dear All,
As far as Abbe Sensei being a good teacher I can confirm though personal experience that I found no problems as far as what Abbe Sensei was imparting to us.His movement was economical , beautifully executed waza.Very fluid , in a manner of Kisaburo Watanabe Sensei, a later Judoka who visited the U.K.
Regarding kicks and punches, most of my early days incorporated this aspect.I was always trying out ways to become a lean mean fight machine.Weights, running, strand pulling, Charles Atlas , you name it I tried it.Now my training comprises of four doughnuts/munchmallows , gin and tonic, pizza etc and my feet up on couch.This once rippled , toned mass of finely honed muscle is now resembling a bag of spuds.
Due to finger wrestling my right hand is damaged, due to a nasty Makikomi from a angry young man from Edinburgh I received collar bone damage.A low level kokyu nage landed me on top of my head 20 years ago and my poor little noggin [head ] is now showing signs of excessive wear and tear.So whats the moral of this story ?Dead simple your body is the only one you have got, treat it kindly , its got to last you a lifetime. Cheers, Joe,

sakumeikan
02-09-2012, 04:49 AM
dear Joe, i am a follower of the way of bu who, for crying out loud, would not kick folks while they are down, at least not too much, unless they deserved it by owing me money and eating my last donut. i can forgive the money, but the donut, not so. a man's last donut is sacred. :D

Dear Phi,
See my latest comment. I agree that one should be reverential to ones doughnut. Joe.

Chris Li
02-09-2012, 09:28 AM
Since nobody has mentioned this one yet, this is from http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=369 - Minoru Mochizuki and Tadashi Abe (the other Abe):

“Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?”

“You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war… an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word ‘aiki’ because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given (“Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That’s the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called ‘aiki no jutsu’. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki.” “Is that so… I think I understand.” “If you still don’t understand, come to me again.” After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.

Best,

Chris

Alic
02-10-2012, 11:20 PM
In my own opinion, generated from knowledge learned with by myself and taught to me, it would seem to me that the idea for Aikido, at least prewar, was truly about battles.

You can see the vestiges of that in Yoshinkan, which is very similar to pre-war Aikibudo. Atemi at every opportunity to shut down the uke's other arm, take their mind, or push them back. Some techniques like shihonage don't work well without it in a practical setting. It seems that Ueshiba originally thought that you must strike your opponent with the same focused power used in Aiki waza, should you enter a serious battle.

Of course, what we decide to do is also a part of Aikido. To strike someone for damage is very different than striking without damaging but for tactical purposes. One is Aiki, the other is violence.

David Fryers
02-22-2012, 07:34 AM
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a reference by Saito (Trad Aikido) saying something like '..blows from non-tempered hands do not compare with those from tempered hands...' He may have been referencing the Aiki practicioners hands (I certainly took it to be this). So the next question is what methods to temper hands are (were) used in Aiki?

OwlMatt
02-28-2012, 12:54 PM
I've read in a lot of places that Kenshiro Abbe's methods were not typical of the aikido of his time. He was, by all accounts, a guy who had his own way of doing things. I'm not sure we should take one man's word on how Abbe Sensei taught as a clear illustration of how aikido "used to be".

Alberto_Italiano
02-29-2012, 02:05 PM
Especially when you hit them at the very bottom bottom "OUCH!"

It depends on its weight - punching bags go with different weights. You may find very light ones which are good to get used to miss the target (particularly with hooks and uppercuts) and yet not lose your balance, or very heavy ones that bounce very little no matter how and how hard you hit them.

Shadowboxing instead is practiced usually in front of a mirror to have a sense of your own stance.

However, an outstanding performance with a heavy bag does not translate automatically in a good performance on a ring. It is amazing how quickly actual sparring with a highly mobile and somewhat hard hitting partner may cut your breath and exhaust your resources within 6 minutes or even less, while hitting the bag you were going on, also intensively, for half an hour.

Something that most persons not used to actual sparring ingore is that being actually hit on the face taxes your breathing resources too: most persons think there is no relation between being hit and breath (and i am not speaking of your ribs here), but there is.

Alberto_Italiano
02-29-2012, 02:33 PM
(...)

Something that most persons not used to actual sparring ingore is that being actually hit on the face taxes your breathing resources too: most persons think there is no relation between being hit and breath (and i am not speaking of your ribs here), but there is.

ps you don't realize this connection immediately - when you realize there is (and you realize it clearly then), it is invariably already too late, you're already treading on your knock down grounds.

At that point those who are new to that sensation try to conceal that their breathing has been affected, and that's what leads to the actual knock down: they keep pretending they have not been heavily taxed, so that a few more punches finish them off easily.

Indeed, also relatively experienced fighters may try to conceal it because once you're there the fact is, you are taxed beyond rescue already.
You have lost.

Move here to minute 8.10: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9PQ2gOrnQ
He could get up, actually (in fact the left hook he threw at 8.05 was still vigorous). The reason he decided not to get up is that he realized Hagler punches were taxing him - he could not breath believe me... he decided that concealing any longer was futile, he felt where he was heading.

Alberto_Italiano
02-29-2012, 03:23 PM
At the risk of speaking to myself, and just for the intellectual stimulus I feel (but hopefully can be of some minimal use also for others): it is in fact possibile to be totally spent and yet to have vigorous muscular energies.

You get hit on the face for two rounds by a foe much more skilled than you - at that point you start realizing that each new punch is affecting your breathing reserves: there can be a medical explanation for it, arguably, but I don't know it. I only know as a fact that there comes a time when you realize that being hit on your face is not a problem because of the strength placed in the hits (they may even be mild ones at that point, with no consquences as far as brain concussion is concerned) but because each of them taxes your breath and takes away from you a portion of your oxygen reserves.

You feel this clearly, you realize you're entering into anaerobic exertion.

Anaerobic exertion is what is normally done in body building gyms.
Your muscles are still capable of delivering powerful stuff, yet you know that you're spent. If asked to lift 20 kilos with one of your biceps, you will lift them.
Yet you feel that your peripherical districts are responsive if you summon in them all your will, yet you realize that your overall condition has been heavily taxed.

You know you can still hit back, and yet you also know you're done.
At that point you realize that going on is fruitless.

It is regrettable that in that match the only visual of Mugabi on the ground is from his back - there was also one that showed him frontal, and you could see clearly that while he sat he was also thinking.
He knew he was spent - there was no point in getting up in order to deliver a few anaerobic blows, he knew with finality that getting one more punch by Hagler would have deprived him even of the last drop of oxygen - and then what?