PDA

View Full Version : Being overly complacent as Uke


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Dave Gallagher
10-23-2011, 08:39 AM
My original teacher used to always warn us about this. He said that if your partner is not leading you somewhere with his or her technique then don't go along with it as it helps neither one of you. He said not to overly resist but not to just throw yourself.
We see so much of this in public demos that I feel that this is where some people get the idea that Aikido is fake.
I was trained to believe that true technique is only learned by making it work and not by having uke throw themselves because they think this is what is "supposed" to happen with that technique. In this case uke gets the best practice but the partner learns nothing from someone flipping themselves because you touched them.
We were taught that there is a line between real technique and just going through the outward motions.
I see a number of videos on Youtube that really hurt the reputation of Aikido in my opinion.
We were taught that as uke you should actually feel what is happening and move with it and not move because you know you are supposed to fall or roll etc.
I am of the opinion that this kind of dojo teaches Aikido that is effective as self defence and still remains true to the "do" part.
I am posting this to see if anyone else has trained this way or if you learned from the "School of being over complaisant" and if so please share the values of it as I have not trained like that and am curious about this philosophy.

Walter Martindale
10-23-2011, 11:06 AM
I've had instructors who have actually punished people for being "too compliant" - the uke goes with (or even ahead of) the nikkyo, sensei warns uke not to go until it's "on", continued over-compliance gets dealt with in the "pin" - where sensei pushes the limits on the pin to the point where the uke can't use his arm for a few minutes after the demonstration - nothing's broken, but the message from sensei is:

Look, I can, if I choose, rip your arm off at any moment - I won't, but you have to offer SOME resistance or require SOME work from me before you submit to the technique - don't lead me in my technique - so - yes, your arm hurts, but it's still attached, please give me something to work with next time I'm demonstrating... Make me throw you, don't throw yourself.

I've had the experience of practicing with people who threw themselves and others who required that you actually do something. It's a wake-up call when all of a sudden there's a person just standing there - not really resisting, but also not taking a dive. Instead of getting upset with the person who was just standing there, I got up with myself (and with the diving team)...

Throw me, or I'll just stand there (and possibly apply a counter)... and either help you figure out how to throw me (if the situation is appropriate) or ask the sensei to help us figure out how my partner can throw me...

One sensei said "Help him - no just let throw, make him work, help him learn."
W

Janet Rosen
10-23-2011, 12:28 PM
To the above I would say, I see uke's job as maintaining the same connection nage is aiming for. In some dojos or training situations, the aim would be to counter, in others to keep providing what nage needs to see if he can auto-correct - so I wouldn't just stand there and wait.

Alberto_Italiano
10-23-2011, 02:40 PM
Well complacent ukes are very useful.

In fact, it is by training with them that, a fatal day that you get confronted by a real and not totally incompetent challenger in a street situation, you will discover only at that very same moment and for the first time that all you have learnt won't work at all - and you will get killed.

So, complacent ukes are very useful if you're so naive and daring to think of using aikido for self-defense purposes (you should know that a martial art is not meant for that... come on everybody knows that... you should rather cultivate aiki instead, for aiki-do is not for self defense but to enhance your spiritual side...) - complacent ukes are quite useful if you're planning... suicide.

Mario Tobias
10-23-2011, 03:49 PM
Hi Dave,

You will encounter this always. The important thing is that you distinguish the overly compliant ukes and understand the underlying reasons. I think there are several factors contributing to this IMHO.

1. Ego and conflict avoidance. Everybody hates to admit they make mistakes. This applies to both nage and uke. Some nages have a "my technique is always correct, and yours is always wrong, therefore my techniques always work" or "know it all" attitude. Ukes can sense this with a nage and become too compliant to avoid conflict otherwise they get reprimanded or get a telling by nage.

2. Uke being uncomfortable because of an injury. Some techniques even done incorrectly to an injured part can be excruciatingly painful. Uke throws himself to relieve the pain or avoid risk of further, more serious injury.

3. Too much pain being inflicted by nage when he does the techniques. Some nages crank it up too much that uke throws himself ahead of the actual throw to save himself.

4. Not really understanding the role of uke. This is where the teacher makes the difference. It is the senseis role to set clear expectations of what ukes role should be and refresh the message regularly during practices. The tricky thing is that the role between nage and uke is mostly nonverbal communication and has some degree of cooperation to make the most out of the training sessions and understanding of techniques. The force coming from both uke and nage should be "just enough". The part about nonverbal communication, level of cooperation and use of right force are as important and equally difficult as the understanding of the techniques themselves.

5. Bad habits or different goals. Different people come to practice for different reasons eg exercise, socializing, lifestyle choice or martial arts application....People with reasons other than seeking martial arts effectiveness would progress differently imho.

Ketsan
10-24-2011, 11:50 AM
Uke shouldn't move unless moved; ukemi really should be an attempt to regain a stable posture from which to fight back. I think of it this way: If Aikido is about leaning correct body mechanics and uke co-operates with me how does that help me work on my body mechanics? That just creates an illusion of competance and so the more I move into a teaching role the less useful I find a co-operative uke.

Uke is a role for the analysis of what tori is doing; if uke is working to produce the technique then it's fudging the results of tori's technique.

BWells
10-24-2011, 12:00 PM
Hum I think I'm going to disagree with this comment slightly. If in the process of being uke, I find myself in disadvantaged place (ie providing an opening), I will move to cover that opening. So in one way I am being forced to move but not physically "moved" by the nage. Even at slow motion we try to keep the intent as realistic as possible, which means I am always looking to move to a place where I am both continuing my attack and protecting myself from a hit or throw. If I lock down to force the nage to throw me, I also provide a static target and break my attacking intent.

Richard Stevens
10-24-2011, 12:01 PM
I think they're are certain degrees of collusion that are acceptable dependent upon the practitioner's skill level. If I were working with a new student I don't have an issue in moving where they should be leading me so they gain a better understanding of footwork, alignment and placement. However, if I were to continue doing that as their skills progressed it would be detrimental to their development.

Ketsan
10-24-2011, 12:55 PM
Hum I think I'm going to disagree with this comment slightly. If in the process of being uke, I find myself in disadvantaged place (ie providing an opening), I will move to cover that opening. So in one way I am being forced to move but not physically "moved" by the nage. Even at slow motion we try to keep the intent as realistic as possible, which means I am always looking to move to a place where I am both continuing my attack and protecting myself from a hit or throw. If I lock down to force the nage to throw me, I also provide a static target and break my attacking intent.

True.

Tim Ruijs
10-24-2011, 01:04 PM
The role of uke (allthough I prefer aite) is to allow tori to learn the technique. Obviously there are several layers in learning each of which require a different aite.
Once the global form is there aite can become tougher (resist more) and see whether or not tori can still maintain control of the situation. Another step is that aite tries to take over the technique at possible openings of aite.
Perhaps aite should try to be the opponent tori can only just manage to control.

Janet Rosen
10-24-2011, 01:17 PM
Uke shouldn't move unless moved; ukemi really should be an attempt to regain a stable posture from which to fight back.

I have been taught and train a little differently - unless I am reading you wrong, which I admit is possible.
Most aikido training (outside of kaeshiwaza and jiyuwaza) is kata; uke and nage each have a role to play.
My role as uke is to provide the energy, in the form of the called-for attack, that nage uses to perform the called-for technique.
I agree that my attack needs to be a good attack in the sense of my ending posture being stable unless nage has disturbed it (drives me nuts to see an uke complete a strike by throwing himself into a roll!).
But if for some reason nage has stalled out, my role as a training partner is not to also stall out so we just stand there - my role is to continue to provide input/energy by pressing the attack enough for nage to try to find the correction he needs to get back on track to take my balance and complete the technique. May not always be possible of course and depends on skill level of nage, but that's how I look at it.

BWells
10-24-2011, 01:28 PM
I actually find uke stalling out (I've attacked so have done my part what now? ) to be a bigger problem than uke being overly complacent. The overly complacent uke is in my view just not understanding and is easier to correct. The stalling out is or can be fear, confusion, not knowing how to attack, or the old, you didn't move me so I will never move! We spend a lot of time trying to get uke's to act as if they were really attacking, not doing stop and start. Even at more senior levels this can sometimes be a problem. And by the way I am guilty sometimes myself, sigh. It is old thinking ahead instead of being in the moment and responding to what is happening NOW.

lbb
10-24-2011, 01:32 PM
Although the two words have the same root, and one is listed as a secondary/alternate meaning of the other, in common usage "complacent" and "complaisant" have rather different meanings. OP used the former when I think he meant to use the latter.

kewms
10-24-2011, 01:33 PM
Uke shouldn't move unless moved; ukemi really should be an attempt to regain a stable posture from which to fight back.

I think I see what you mean, but these two statements are contradictory. At least in practice, an uke who refuses to move may be stable, but usually is not in a position from which they can fight back.

The classic "immovable uke" -- someone who clamps down on your wrist and grounds out -- does not strike me as particularly helpful, either for training against "real" attacks or for actually learning anything about aikido. Even (perhaps especially) in static practice, uke needs to be sensitive to what nage is doing and respond in a way appropriate to nage's skill level.

Katherine

Dave Gallagher
10-24-2011, 04:25 PM
Mary, you are correct. complaisant is the word I should have used. A partner who is just limp and will roll or fall with or without receiving a good and proper technique just to make it look good.

robin_jet_alt
10-24-2011, 05:30 PM
I think all of you have described what an uke should do, albeit in different situations and to different degrees. I just want to add that when I have trained with very good ukes, it has been like trying to hold a snake by the tail. They don't go dead after they attack. They allow themselves to be led, but at the same time, they remain aware of their own balance and how they are able to move. Whether they reverse the technique or strike etc depends on the level of nage and the type of training we are doing.

RED
10-27-2011, 02:17 PM
I've had instructors who have actually punished people for being "too compliant" - the uke goes with (or even ahead of) the nikkyo, sensei warns uke not to go until it's "on", continued over-compliance gets dealt with in the "pin" - where sensei pushes the limits on the pin to the point where the uke can't use his arm for a few minutes after the demonstration - nothing's broken,...



I have torn tendons in my arm from a nikkyo. It will never heal, I will need surgery eventually someday, until then it is something I just simply train on. I find it very shocking that a sensei would act so irresponsible. The tendons and tissues a nikkyo pin is taking advantage of are major tissue groups. If you can't use your arm for a few moments afterwards the nage has in fact done serious damage to the uke. I don't agree people should be "easy" uke, they should in fact be thrown. And yes you should discourage, particularly at the higher levels, uke that thrown themselves. I believe in uke practicing to their nage's level. It is about learning.
Again I find the practice of "pushing the limits" on pins and joint manipulations to be disrespectful to your uke, and their health. If you get a dead arms from a nikkyo, see a doctor. Training isn't play time, and self preservation is a virtue, and respect for your uke's body is required to train in Aikido at all. And it is particularly hard to maintain training schedules, and train to our highest levels injured like this.

Ketsan
10-27-2011, 04:46 PM
I think I see what you mean, but these two statements are contradictory. At least in practice, an uke who refuses to move may be stable, but usually is not in a position from which they can fight back.

The classic "immovable uke" -- someone who clamps down on your wrist and grounds out -- does not strike me as particularly helpful, either for training against "real" attacks or for actually learning anything about aikido. Even (perhaps especially) in static practice, uke needs to be sensitive to what nage is doing and respond in a way appropriate to nage's skill level.

Katherine

Uke should want to keep his center; there's no stiffness or tension or clamping down in a muscular sense implied. Just like in push testing you don't keep your center by going stiff, same same with uke.

If tori wants uke to move then tori has to put uke in a position where moving is his best option or where he has been put in motion by tori. Uke is training his centre just as much as tori and shouldn't do anything to give it up. I don't when I'm practicing/teaching, if he's not taking my centre he's doing something wrong and rather than adapting to the wrong thing I'd rather stop and see what the mistake is and put it right. :)

jlbrewer
10-27-2011, 09:54 PM
I too was taught only to fall if the nage makes me need to, don't be stiff, don't force resistance (with an unwritten "unless you're a pair of yudansha testing each other's response"), but there's one exception I'm curious about that I haven't gotten around to asking sensei about yet. Anything that involves a throw into rolling ukemi, you roll no mater what, even if the person didn't successfully throw you. I'm guessing this is partly for safety, partly for practice doing rolling ukemi well? It usually manages to still be obvious to the nage and the sensei if the throw wasn't good.

Janet Rosen
10-27-2011, 10:45 PM
I too was taught only to fall if the nage makes me need to, don't be stiff, don't force resistance (with an unwritten "unless you're a pair of yudansha testing each other's response"), but there's one exception I'm curious about that I haven't gotten around to asking sensei about yet. Anything that involves a throw into rolling ukemi, you roll no mater what, even if the person didn't successfully throw you. I'm guessing this is partly for safety, partly for practice doing rolling ukemi well? It usually manages to still be obvious to the nage and the sensei if the throw wasn't good.

Depends. With a newbie I take the roll. With somebody else depending on their skill level and other factors....I may follow their energy even if my balance isn't fully taken and let us make the roll happen OR ... I may go where they are actually putting me, for instance, if my balance is intact and they push me, I'll walk out of the push as a reflection of what I felt done to me.

robin_jet_alt
10-27-2011, 10:49 PM
I too was taught only to fall if the nage makes me need to, don't be stiff, don't force resistance (with an unwritten "unless you're a pair of yudansha testing each other's response"), but there's one exception I'm curious about that I haven't gotten around to asking sensei about yet. Anything that involves a throw into rolling ukemi, you roll no mater what, even if the person didn't successfully throw you. I'm guessing this is partly for safety, partly for practice doing rolling ukemi well? It usually manages to still be obvious to the nage and the sensei if the throw wasn't good.

Ever seen someone pull out of a roll at the last minute and land on their shoulder? It is not a pretty site. A dislocated collarbone can take months to heal, if it ever fully heals.

Walter Martindale
10-27-2011, 11:07 PM
I have torn tendons in my arm from a nikkyo. It will never heal, I will need surgery eventually someday, until then it is something I just simply train on. I find it very shocking that a sensei would act so irresponsible. The tendons and tissues a nikkyo pin is taking advantage of are major tissue groups. If you can't use your arm for a few moments afterwards the nage has in fact done serious damage to the uke. I don't agree people should be "easy" uke, they should in fact be thrown. And yes you should discourage, particularly at the higher levels, uke that thrown themselves. I believe in uke practicing to their nage's level. It is about learning.
Again I find the practice of "pushing the limits" on pins and joint manipulations to be disrespectful to your uke, and their health. If you get a dead arms from a nikkyo, see a doctor. Training isn't play time, and self preservation is a virtue, and respect for your uke's body is required to train in Aikido at all. And it is particularly hard to maintain training schedules, and train to our highest levels injured like this.

To some extent I agree - deliberately harming someone is not on. However in this situation the arm was dead only for a minute or so after - no torn ligaments, no permanent damage - It was a shihan letting an overly compliant uke know that a) he could tell where the limits of uke's flexibility was, and b) don't lead the ukemi. Oh, and uke WAS (and still is) a doctor...

Tim Ruijs
10-28-2011, 02:19 AM
First rule of Budo: protect yourself at all times. ALWAYS!

Aikido practise is inherently safe. When it is not, you are doing it wrong!
No one should make a point using pain/cause injury. Especially not the teacher. In case this happens do not train with that person, warn others about it or perhaps even leave!

In role of aite you allow tori to do the exercise, while protecting yourself at every step of the technique. It does not matter if tori is your teacher, an experienced student or novice. There is a risk that tori is too strong/too good for you to maintain control and you rely on your trust in tori. So know who you can trust, or do not train with them.
Accidents do happen, unfortunately, but they occur by chance not on purpose!

Walter Martindale
10-28-2011, 08:25 AM
First rule of Budo: protect yourself at all times. ALWAYS!

Aikido practise is inherently safe. When it is not, you are doing it wrong!
No one should make a point using pain/cause injury. Especially not the teacher. In case this happens do not train with that person, warn others about it or perhaps even leave!

In role of aite you allow tori to do the exercise, while protecting yourself at every step of the technique. It does not matter if tori is your teacher, an experienced student or novice. There is a risk that tori is too strong/too good for you to maintain control and you rely on your trust in tori. So know who you can trust, or do not train with them.
Accidents do happen, unfortunately, but they occur by chance not on purpose!

Again, I agree in the general case. In this specific case the shihan had seen the uke develop from gokyu up to sandan, and knew the limits. There was nothing fast.

If I'm uke, I essentially "let" the nage do the technique if he or she is doing it. I actually let them do it 'wrong' a few times while I'm figuring out if I'm able/qualified to help them. If I think I can help them, I do. If I don't think I know enough, I call the shihan or sensei over and ask why my partner is having so much trouble making me move. If it's a shihan doing the technique to me, I usually don't have much choice in the matter - OK, I don't have any choice in the matter. Hmm - THAT's what he's doing...

The only accidental ouch I've had when being thrown by a shihan, I was planted firmly on the ground with a kotegaeshi that had some pretty good air in it (flying lessons, Japanese style), which was just fine, but my lower leg, on the way to the mat, landed on someone's heel just as he was pushing off the ball of his foot. MAN that hurt.

DonMagee
10-28-2011, 08:55 AM
To some extent I agree - deliberately harming someone is not on. However in this situation the arm was dead only for a minute or so after - no torn ligaments, no permanent damage - It was a shihan letting an overly compliant uke know that a) he could tell where the limits of uke's flexibility was, and b) don't lead the ukemi. Oh, and uke WAS (and still is) a doctor...

If my teacher chose to not respect my tap and release his hold on my command, it would be the last time I train with that teacher (If I didn't get up and lay a beating on him).

Respecting the tap is the single most important thing that can happen on the mat. It's not my training partner or my teacher who has to live with the injuries. They do not know better than I on what my body can or can't take. Unless they are willing to go to my job for me and pay my mortgage they have no say in this matter.

In my opinion, not respecting the tap is the single most irresponsible and disrespectful thing someone can do on the mat.

Tim Ruijs
10-28-2011, 09:06 AM
@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....

@Don, agreed. totally.

I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.
It is tempting when aite taps out 'early' to simply continue the hold to make your point that you think his/her limit has not yet been reached. But is is soo wrong! It is a reflection of your mindset when this happens.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-28-2011, 09:12 AM
In my opinion, not respecting the tap is the single most irresponsible and disrespectful thing someone can do on the mat.
Totally agree.

And when done as a "punishmnent" in kata demonstration is even worse.

Richard Stevens
10-28-2011, 09:31 AM
I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.

I didn't realize that Aikijujutsu was about hurting people. Considering the "aiki" included in the name one might expect it to involve some "internal" practice as well...

DonMagee
10-28-2011, 12:39 PM
@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....

@Don, agreed. totally.

I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.
It is tempting when aite taps out 'early' to simply continue the hold to make your point that you think his/her limit has not yet been reached. But is is soo wrong! It is a reflection of your mindset when this happens.

I think it holds true in any martial art. If I was in bjj class and my fellow students or coach decided I was tapping out too soon my a shoulder attack or a choke and held it longer I'd be just as angry (probably even more so due to the nature of the training). Respect and gratitude to your partner for allowing you to work with them is a must in any martial art. It's the only way we can both grow together. (And the only way you can keep students and training partners)

graham christian
10-28-2011, 01:07 PM
@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....

@Don, agreed. totally.

I stress this in class: the goal in Aikido is not about throwing or hurting someone. When you want to hurt someone go out and practise aikijujutsu or some other external martial art.
It is tempting when aite taps out 'early' to simply continue the hold to make your point that you think his/her limit has not yet been reached. But is is soo wrong! It is a reflection of your mindset when this happens.

Tim, I see tapping out as a set in stone rule also but ask you this: when should a person tap out in your view? Therefore what is tapping out?

Regards.G.

DonMagee
10-28-2011, 01:15 PM
Tim, I see tapping out as a set in stone rule also but ask you this: when should a person tap out in your view? Therefore what is tapping out?

Regards.G.
Here's my take on it.

You tap out to acknowledge your inability to deal with the technique. You don't need to feel pain to tap out. When I first started judo and bjj I wouldn't tap until I felt pain or was choking badly. I'd go home with sore arms and sore throats.

Now I understand better that tapping is about admitting helplessness. I can tap the moment I know I'm not escaping. In terms of bjj/judo training. I'll tap when the technique is locked in and my attempts at escape have failed. In kata terms I'll tap when the technique is correctly applied and the only point in continuing is to cause pain/injury.

Being able to 'take' it has no bearing on when to tap. Pushing limits in pain really doesn't have any purpose in knowing when to tap.

The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 01:28 PM
Here's my take on it.

You tap out to acknowledge your inability to deal with the technique. You don't need to feel pain to tap out. When I first started judo and bjj I wouldn't tap until I felt pain or was choking badly. I'd go home with sore arms and sore throats.

Now I understand better that tapping is about admitting helplessness. I can tap the moment I know I'm not escaping. In terms of bjj/judo training. I'll tap when the technique is locked in and my attempts at escape have failed. In kata terms I'll tap when the technique is correctly applied and the only point in continuing is to cause pain/injury.

Being able to 'take' it has no bearing on when to tap. Pushing limits in pain really doesn't have any purpose in knowing when to tap.

The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.

Hi Don.
I totally agree with this view and you put it very well.

I would add that sometimes I have come across someone who is tapping out at the least opportunity. I found in every case it was because they had been used to 'bad' ways and thus were expecting what wasn't actually there. It's quite amusing to see really and then to clear with the person that doesn't happen here.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
10-28-2011, 01:45 PM
In my opinion, not respecting the tap is the single most irresponsible and disrespectful thing someone can do on the mat.
Yes, I would put it very high on my list.

Janet Rosen
10-28-2011, 01:50 PM
Tim, I see tapping out as a set in stone rule also but ask you this: when should a person tap out in your view? Therefore what is tapping out?

Regards.G.

Two situations:
1. You have me effectively pinned so we are done (for a newbie, if he has done everything as correctly as he can, whether or not I can actually get up from it; otherwise, the pin is applied in such a way that I have no desire to try to get out of it)
2. You are actively hurting me or are about to injure me.

Since nage has no way to know which it is unless I'm also yelling OUCH OUCH LEGGO! it behooves nage to release right away, even if we are in the middle of technique and nowhere near the final pin.

Janet Rosen
10-28-2011, 01:51 PM
You've expressed it better than I did...

Here's my take on it.

You tap out to acknowledge your inability to deal with the technique. You don't need to feel pain to tap out. When I first started judo and bjj I wouldn't tap until I felt pain or was choking badly. I'd go home with sore arms and sore throats.

Now I understand better that tapping is about admitting helplessness. I can tap the moment I know I'm not escaping. In terms of bjj/judo training. I'll tap when the technique is locked in and my attempts at escape have failed. In kata terms I'll tap when the technique is correctly applied and the only point in continuing is to cause pain/injury.

Being able to 'take' it has no bearing on when to tap. Pushing limits in pain really doesn't have any purpose in knowing when to tap.

The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.

kewms
10-28-2011, 05:48 PM
The number one rule is "protect yourself at all times". It is your job to know your limits and to express them. It is your partner's job to respect those limits. When you feel in danger, or helpless, or lost, it is the time to tap. Only that will prevent injury.

This. I'm ultimately responsible for my body, and I'm the one who'll have to live with an injury. If I'm having an off day or am sore for some reason and tap "early," that is my problem, not my partner's. If I'm worried about my partner's control and tap early, it's his job to become trustworthy, not to tell me I'm "wrong."

I generally encourage beginners to tap sooner rather than later. Their partner may or may not "really" have them, but their first job is to protect themselves.

If I were to catch anyone in one of my classes ignoring a tap, I'd kick them off the mat. If they did it twice, I'd raise the question of whether they should be asked to leave the dojo.

Katherine

Nafis Zahir
10-28-2011, 10:58 PM
What you are speaking off is something that I believe should be slowly worked up to but definitely practiced at the yudansha levels. Too many times I have seen senior students of dan grades who cannot execute a technique with just minimal resistance that really came from the fact that their entry was poor and they didn't take uke's balance. On the flip side, if the entry is done well, some uke's tend to over react and not try to recover.

Walter Martindale
10-29-2011, 07:30 AM
@Walter
Even to allow tori to continue with a wrongly executed technique might be dangerous. In that situation be even more aware of your control (Budo!). It is often in these situations where 'accidents' happen....



It ALL depends on the situation. When I (after 18 years of Aikido and 8 years of Judo) practice with a person in his or her first month or so of practice, I let them do the movement even if they're not perfect, but they have to be doing something that resembles the movement principles being worked on at the time. I don't let them do anything that's going to hurt me - or them.

After a few 'trials,' I'll start making it harder for them to do it 'wrong' and quietly suggest why a different movement would be more effective in making me move in a way that I can't resist (others, younger and more flexible might be able to but I haven't been 22 for a very long time).. Or (and I prefer this) I'll ask the sensei to help my partner figure it out.

WRT the early tap out... The shihan in question ALWAYS released the pressure the moment I tapped, on the few occasions I was his uke. He'd ask why I tapped so early but I'd reached the end of my range of motion and back in the judo days I'd had a lot of injuries, making the neck/shoulders tight.

WRT the person with/on whom he was demonstrating in the situation described above, we were all wondering just how far he was going to go, but in truth uke (a sandan) was tapping out of a nikyo pin about 1/3 of the way into the pin, and about 1/3 of the distance the shihan was able to take him before reaching the "ok, now you're being stretched" point.. That, too, depends on the situation. The uke was/is being developed to be a sensei.

Anyway - the incident in question was about a decade ago and the shihan in question has gone to meet his makers - kicked the bucket - cast off his mortal coil. He was VERY traditional in his approach to martial arts - most of the time he'd show the 'modern' technique, and then occasionally show the 'in the old days we did this...' without actually finishing. i.e., when pinning ikkyo (ikkajo?). He'd say 'in the old days we did this... ' and his demonstration would include pinning the elbow, and lift his other hand up sharply, but letting go of the pinned forearm... He ALWAYS said not to hurt uke, though, because we need people to practice with.

Tim Ruijs
10-31-2011, 02:59 AM
@Richard
Really? You did not understand my point? do is study, jujutsu is about fighting...Please not this again. No, it is not about hurting people....

@Graham
Does it really matter why (or when) aite taps out? Tori must respect this decision at all times.
I think Don Magee described it pretty well. I also believe it is a process that takes a little while. At first (when you start Aikido) you might be tempted to resist the pain/hold: to see how much you can take. After a while you will start to understand what Aikido is about and this fades away. It is about protecting yourself.

@Katherine
Agreed. Nice example of why tori must respect aite's decision to tap out.

graham christian
10-31-2011, 06:45 AM
@Richard
Really? You did not understand my point? do is study, jujutsu is about fighting...Please not this again. No, it is not about hurting people....

@Graham
Does it really matter why (or when) aite taps out? Tori must respect this decision at all times.
I think Don Magee described it pretty well. I also believe it is a process that takes a little while. At first (when you start Aikido) you might be tempted to resist the pain/hold: to see how much you can take. After a while you will start to understand what Aikido is about and this fades away. It is about protecting yourself.

@Katherine
Agreed. Nice example of why tori must respect aite's decision to tap out.

Tim, in short I would answer yes. To be aware as to those times when obeying the tapping out rule does not apply.

Regards.G,

Tim Ruijs
10-31-2011, 07:11 AM
Graham
I understand what you are saying. I would not dare to suggest to tighten the hold until aite taps...because what if aite does not tap....always with feel and awareness. But I think it is not really important why aite taps out (also see katherine's example), only that you release when he/she does.

jonreading
10-31-2011, 08:13 AM
I believe there is a benefit to feeling the discomfort of a lock, stretch, or throw. I think it is important as uke to learn from the feeling since it is first-hand knowledge of the effect of the technique. Likewise, I believe the conditioning helps your body just as stretching, yoga, Pilates, etc. would. That said, I do not advocate damaging your body in extreme resistance.

However, aikido is based in striking and the thing that I thinks hurts us is that when we resist we do not learn the proper timing in which the interaction is taking place. If I have enough time to "resist" then my partner has enough time to hit me while I am resisting. After the stretching and learning, we need to transition our response from resisting to defense. Resisting is not defense. If my first response is to resist I will be unable to protect myself if my partner chooses to severely apply technique or if my partner chooses to strike instead of grapple.

Tim Ruijs
10-31-2011, 08:59 AM
Walter
I think I understand your point. At times I show the transition to 'fighting' technique to show what is important in the study (do) variant. My technique then becomes sharp, but also release the pin just in time. My students have come to know me like this and trust me in this.
The reason I said to continue with a wrong technique might be dangerous applies to the 'technique of pinning' if you will, not the entire technique. Allthough you should be aware at all times especially with beginners. They are unpredictable.

Walter Martindale
10-31-2011, 09:21 AM
Walter
I think I understand your point. At times I show the transition to 'fighting' technique to show what is important in the study (do) variant. My technique then becomes sharp, but also release the pin just in time. My students have come to know me like this and trust me in this.
The reason I said to continue with a wrong technique might be dangerous applies to the 'technique of pinning' if you will, not the entire technique. Allthough you should be aware at all times especially with beginners. They are unpredictable.

My approach to this is - yes, beginners are unpredictable partly because they don't know the proper movements, and partly because they don't realize just how little external force is required to cause a LOT of torque in a joint or a pair of forearm bones. So if I'm helping someone learn something, I get them to tap early - until they've been practicing for at least a few months, when I suggest that they provide a small amount of resistance and "take" a bit of loading in the pin so they get a bit of stretch (SLOWLY) and a bit of strengthening, because longer muscles have more contractile elements in series and are thus stronger, and providing resistance will also provide some development to thicken muscle fibres (again, adding more contractile elements)..

I don't really want to get into the "what if it's real" discussion - that's been flogged all over other forums, but every shihan I've seen, at some point has said that if it's "for real" you either give up your wallet or you defend your life with everything you have as you would against (say) a bear. I've heard said about fighting with a bear - if it's a grizzly, you play dead and maybe it will ignore you and wait a few days until you are a little bit rotten and more easy to slurp up.. If it's a black bear and you play dead, it will start eating right away, so, fight with everything you've got until you're unconscious, after which it won't matter. (I don't currently live in bear country, but in one of my university days summer jobs, I've been within 10 m of two black bear cubs and their mother - I'm SO glad the cubs didn't get curious and that they were going for the river....)

Tim Ruijs
10-31-2011, 09:56 AM
...must have been really cool to get so close to the cubs and ... scary at the same time.:eek:

Janet Rosen
10-31-2011, 11:01 AM
until they've been practicing for at least a few months, when I suggest that they provide a small amount of resistance and "take" a bit of loading in the pin so they get a bit of stretch (SLOWLY) and a bit of strengthening, because longer muscles have more contractile elements in series and are thus stronger, and providing resistance will also provide some development to thicken muscle fibres (again, adding more contractile elements)..

You know I *think* in principle we are agreeing....but what I suggest is that they RELAX into the pin in order to accept it and get the stretch. This also starts wiring the brain/body to stay relaxed under pressure whether uke or nage.

Walter Martindale
10-31-2011, 11:07 AM
You know I *think* in principle we are agreeing....but what I suggest is that they RELAX into the pin in order to accept it and get the stretch. This also starts wiring the brain/body to stay relaxed under pressure whether uke or nage.

Bingo!

You say it better.

Basia Halliop
10-31-2011, 11:12 AM
I would put stopping doing something to someone when they tell you to stop pretty high up on the list of Great Moral Rules of the Universe.

Basically, the thing that separates martial arts training from physical assault is the consensual nature of it. Take away the consent and you're assaulting someone, and whether it's 'for their own good' or not doesn't change that. Suggest to them that they should push themselves harder, tell them you don't think they're at their limit, if you're in charge of promoting them then don't promote them, heck, don't let them train if you feel strongly, whatever. But ultimately it's up to them and it doesn't matter if you're O-Sensei himself -- someone tells you to stop, you stop.

Walter Martindale
10-31-2011, 11:24 AM
...must have been really cool to get so close to the cubs and ... scary at the same time.:eek:

Well, this is OT, but since you ask..

Picture: I was working for CP Rail Special Projects, surveying profile and cross-sections for volumes remaining to fill on a railway construction project. I was "Rodman" but was sitting on a rock at the side of the job waiting while "R," the instrument man (about 30 m away from me) was doing some calculations in his field book (it was the 1970s before all the computerized equipment).

I heard some rustling in the bush to my right.:confused: Looked, FROZE :eek: and started hoping like heck that cub number 1 would NOT look my way... then cub number 2 and mom came out. This was about 1/3 of the way between me and the guy on the instrument. I'm sitting not making any noise, saying to myself "PLEASE don't smell me, PLEASE don't look this way." over and over.... The cubs were really cute but their presence makes momma bear REALLY dangerous. Normally the bear will avoid human contact, but if the cubs are there they can cause a lot of damage.

The bears wandered across the construction site (a 5 mile long construction site near Revelstoke, BC) and when they were about 3/4 of the way across, or about 70 meters away, I picked up the mike on the radio and whispered "Look up" - R. looked up, I was pointing at the bears. He froze, and the instant they went over the side of the fill, I assume on their way to the river, R picked up the level, the radio, and started walking the mile or so back to the truck.

Hmm, guess we're done... I suppose I'll leave, too. In the truck, he wrote "Bears on job site" at the bottom of the page, we dropped the gear at the trailer, and went to the pub for the rest of the afternoon.:D

kewms
10-31-2011, 11:38 AM
I would put stopping doing something to someone when they tell you to stop pretty high up on the list of Great Moral Rules of the Universe.

Basically, the thing that separates martial arts training from physical assault is the consensual nature of it. Take away the consent and you're assaulting someone, and whether it's 'for their own good' or not doesn't change that. Suggest to them that they should push themselves harder, tell them you don't think they're at their limit, if you're in charge of promoting them then don't promote them, heck, don't let them train if you feel strongly, whatever. But ultimately it's up to them and it doesn't matter if you're O-Sensei himself -- someone tells you to stop, you stop.

On those rare occasions when someone hasn't respected my tap, my first instinct has been to get off the ground as fast as I can (once they let go) and punch them in the face. I haven't actually done it, but is that really the kind of energy you want in someone who's going to be torquing on *your* arm in a few minutes?

I'm lending you my body for your practice. As with any borrowed property, treating it as if it were your own is the *minimum* standard for behavior.

Katherine

Walter Martindale
10-31-2011, 01:02 PM
On those rare occasions when someone hasn't respected my tap, my first instinct has been to get off the ground as fast as I can (once they let go) and punch them in the face. I haven't actually done it, but is that really the kind of energy you want in someone who's going to be torquing on *your* arm in a few minutes?

I'm lending you my body for your practice. As with any borrowed property, treating it as if it were your own is the *minimum* standard for behavior.

Katherine

See. I tell a story about something that happened about 10 years ago and look what happens.

On those rare occasions I've been teaching, or when I talk with people about safety in the dojo, I remind people that we take turns and if someone gets out of line and over-torques a pin, or continues to stretch after the submission, guess what - the other person gets a turn, too... If nothing else, that's kept things civilized. I frequently ask to be stretched gently after a "first tap" - as in - please hold it there for a moment, I'll push against it for a few seconds and then can you apply a little more stretch - and then I'll tap again, expecting to be let go. That, however, happens after we've talked about getting a bit more stretching....
W

mathewjgano
10-31-2011, 01:19 PM
See. I tell a story about something that happened about 10 years ago and look what happens.

On those rare occasions I've been teaching, or when I talk with people about safety in the dojo, I remind people that we take turns and if someone gets out of line and over-torques a pin, or continues to stretch after the submission, guess what - the other person gets a turn, too... If nothing else, that's kept things civilized. I frequently ask to be stretched gently after a "first tap" - as in - please hold it there for a moment, I'll push against it for a few seconds and then can you apply a little more stretch - and then I'll tap again, expecting to be let go. That, however, happens after we've talked about getting a bit more stretching....
W

I agree there is some flexibility here. I always let up on the pin when people tap, but if I don't think they should have tapped I'll ask them if it hurt. I always said tap before it hurts, but bring it as close to that point as possible.

Janet Rosen
10-31-2011, 02:29 PM
Well, this is OT, but since you ask....
Hmm, guess we're done... I suppose I'll leave, too. In the truck, he wrote "Bears on job site" at the bottom of the page, we dropped the gear at the trailer, and went to the pub for the rest of the afternoon.:D

Smart workers :D

Tim Ruijs
11-01-2011, 03:31 AM
You know I *think* in principle we are agreeing....but what I suggest is that they RELAX into the pin in order to accept it and get the stretch. This also starts wiring the brain/body to stay relaxed under pressure whether uke or nage.

Agreed. Exactly how I look at it :-)

@Walter
Nice story. How many people can write that in their daily notes: bears on job site? The worst I encounter is coffee spill on my desk, I suppose......

Walter Martindale
11-01-2011, 06:28 AM
Agreed. Exactly how I look at it :-)

@Walter
Nice story. How many people can write that in their daily notes: bears on job site? The worst I encounter is coffee spill on my desk, I suppose......

Now, in my work, I have to wear a hat (geese and gulls fly over). I get to watch baby osprey learn to fly and hunt in spring time, and I get to help young folks learn how to balance on a 30 cm x 8 m racing shell.

and try to not spill coffee in the coaching launch...

graham christian
11-01-2011, 01:53 PM
Graham
I understand what you are saying. I would not dare to suggest to tighten the hold until aite taps...because what if aite does not tap....always with feel and awareness. But I think it is not really important why aite taps out (also see katherine's example), only that you release when he/she does.

Well I disagree here. It is very important to be aware of why uke is tapping out and that's basically my main point. If you're not aware of why then you prohibit your own learning.

As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go.

Are we teaching people to recognise reality here or are we teaching them to fear?

It all sounds good that you must let go no matter what but on inspection I find it's not always the case.

Now before you think I am mentioning a very rare occurrence I assure you I am not. The number of times I have come across people tapping out for what they assume is about to happen and the number of times I have come across people throwing themselves into perfect, artistic, breakfalls for what they assume is about to happen is numerous.

Fear of what might be causes this including avoidance of possible pain. Aikido in my mind should be teaching how to face, harmonize with, be in present time. Thus I am not led by false tap outs.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
11-01-2011, 02:14 PM
Fear of what might be causes this including avoidance of possible pain. Aikido in my mind should be teaching how to face, harmonize with, be in present time. Thus I am not led by false tap outs.

Regards.G.

I have very flexible shoulders and can often accept a nice long pin as a welcomed stretch. However sometimes the person is unwittingly holding my hand, albeit lightly, in such a way that my very arthritic thumb, which is having an exacerbation, is in complete agony.
I asking the person about their experience of what happened after the fact and coming to an agreement about slowly working through their comfort zone. But it is incredibly presumptious to think you can read what, how, why and how a person is tapping and overrule their judgement.

graham christian
11-01-2011, 02:29 PM
I have very flexible shoulders and can often accept a nice long pin as a welcomed stretch. However sometimes the person is unwittingly holding my hand, albeit lightly, in such a way that my very arthritic thumb, which is having an exacerbation, is in complete agony.
I asking the person about their experience of what happened after the fact and coming to an agreement about slowly working through their comfort zone. But it is incredibly presumptious to think you can read what, how, why and how a person is tapping and overrule their judgement.

Presumptuous? No. To train yourself and take responsibility for being aware of is part of Aikido. This means being aware at all times of what you are doing precisely and in total control so you know if what you are doing will cause pain or not. You know if the reaction fits the action. That's the level of awareness to reach for.

Secondly, by teaching the uke not to assume anything and training them to focus on what is actually happening then you are teaching them that they have a responsibility too. Both sides have that responsibility.

I would expect an uke with any responsibility to inform me of any unusual circumstances pertinent to the training ie: arthritic thumb.

Anyway, rest assured that if it was me I would be able to differentiate between real unexplained pain and drama.

Regards.G.

kewms
11-01-2011, 04:26 PM
Note to self: avoid Graham's dojo.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed.

Katherine

Janet Rosen
11-01-2011, 05:03 PM
Note to self: avoid Graham's dojo.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed.

Katherine

Yep.

graham christian
11-01-2011, 06:56 PM
Note to self: avoid Graham's dojo.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed.

Katherine

Mmmm. Another popular saying used by those who have lost there own faith and thus part of themselves.

To personalize shows me only your lack of self esteem and confidence.

G.

Richard Stevens
11-01-2011, 07:22 PM
Although I'm not too active on the forum, I've read through enough threads to be surprised that your head manages to not completely exceed the server's bandwidth limits. You are such an amazing and enlightened human being. If I could only reach such heights of false humility. I've never found it necessary to add someone to my ignore list, until now...

robin_jet_alt
11-01-2011, 07:35 PM
I have very flexible shoulders and can often accept a nice long pin as a welcomed stretch. However sometimes the person is unwittingly holding my hand, albeit lightly, in such a way that my very arthritic thumb, which is having an exacerbation, is in complete agony.
I asking the person about their experience of what happened after the fact and coming to an agreement about slowly working through their comfort zone. But it is incredibly presumptious to think you can read what, how, why and how a person is tapping and overrule their judgement.

I completely agree. I have tapped out for numerous reasons including cramp in my foot, my hair getting caught, a toe getting caught in the hakama, an inexperienced tori giving me a 'chinese burn' when trying to apply the pin, the torn tendon in my left hand being at an odd angle, pressure on the bone that I broke in my right hand last year etc. etc. etc. There is no way that tori can be completely aware of everything that is going on. Uke needs to inform them by tapping, and tori needs to respect that.

graham christian
11-01-2011, 08:10 PM
I completely agree. I have tapped out for numerous reasons including cramp in my foot, my hair getting caught, a toe getting caught in the hakama, an inexperienced tori giving me a 'chinese burn' when trying to apply the pin, the torn tendon in my left hand being at an odd angle, pressure on the bone that I broke in my right hand last year etc. etc. etc. There is no way that tori can be completely aware of everything that is going on. Uke needs to inform them by tapping, and tori needs to respect that.

Oh dear. Personal experiences to back up a point of view. I cannot disagree with those instances Robin but I'm afraid you either choose to ignore what I wrote or are unaware of it.

The point I made was about when a person is tapping out through fear of what may happen. Some people do this and then turn it into a way of getting out of, a neat trick.

If you or whoever believe it is not possible to recognise this then you never will.

Nowhere did I say that when an uke suddenly shouts or taps unforseen discomfort that you should carry on regardless.

I also said that uke is responsible for informing of any physical concerns beforehand.

I notice those coming on against what I said are giving personal experience as their reasoning. I suggest they take each experience and find when they were at fault and when the other was at fault. As I said 'bad training' is at fault but alas most call that normal.

Regards.G.

robin_jet_alt
11-01-2011, 08:27 PM
Graham,

I don't think anyone here has a problem with your statement that uke shouldn't tap out of anticipation of what might happen. That is poor training practice, and among other things it prevents tori from practicing effectively.

I think what Janet and Katherine have taken issue with is that tori is expected to know the difference between a jammed toe and anticipation. It is easy to assume one when it is really the other, and as such a tap should always be respected.

IMHO, if you are having problems with someone anticipating, have a quiet word to them and obtain their consent to slowly apply the lock to a point beyond that which they find comfortable and progress your training from there.

graham christian
11-01-2011, 08:41 PM
Graham,

I don't think anyone here has a problem with your statement that uke shouldn't tap out of anticipation of what might happen. That is poor training practice, and among other things it prevents tori from practicing effectively.

I think what Janet and Katherine have taken issue with is that tori is expected to know the difference between a jammed toe and anticipation. It is easy to assume one when it is really the other, and as such a tap should always be respected.

IMHO, if you are having problems with someone anticipating, have a quiet word to them and obtain their consent to slowly apply the lock to a point beyond that which they find comfortable and progress your training from there.

Robin. I never mentioned jammed toes or anything like that but merely the point you say no one had issues with.

It no doubt can be difficult to notice the difference between that and a real situation but that doesn't mean you can't and also that you can get very good at it. In my view a teacher should be very, very good at it.

I have no problem with it myself but see many who do.

A phenomena I would say many teachers know about and know the difference.

Regards.G.

kewms
11-01-2011, 08:56 PM
Mmmm. Another popular saying used by those who have lost there own faith and thus part of themselves.

To personalize shows me only your lack of self esteem and confidence.

G.

*shrug* I have enough self-esteem and confidence to value intact shoulders more than some stranger on the internet's opinion of my training.

And that's really my point in this whole sub-thread, too. They are MY shoulders. I simply DO NOT CARE what you or anyone else thinks they "should" be able to tolerate. I'm the one who is attached to them and will have to live with the consequences of an error, whether my own or nage's. So I will tap when I think it's appropriate, and I will avoid practice partners who don't respect that.

Again, if you think I'm tapping too soon, it's your job to convince me that you can be trusted with MY shoulders. How to convince me? Well, you could start by letting go when I tell you to. If you can't be trusted to do that, you certainly can't be trusted to help me stretch my limits.

Katherine

graham christian
11-01-2011, 09:25 PM
*shrug* I have enough self-esteem and confidence to value intact shoulders more than some stranger on the internet's opinion of my training.

And that's really my point in this whole sub-thread, too. They are MY shoulders. I simply DO NOT CARE what you or anyone else thinks they "should" be able to tolerate. I'm the one who is attached to them and will have to live with the consequences of an error, whether my own or nage's. So I will tap when I think it's appropriate, and I will avoid practice partners who don't respect that.

Again, if you think I'm tapping too soon, it's your job to convince me that you can be trusted with MY shoulders. How to convince me? Well, you could start by letting go when I tell you to. If you can't be trusted to do that, you certainly can't be trusted to help me stretch my limits.

Katherine

You make a point but nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned going past any point of tolerance.

In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat.

When someone betrays that trust then you enter correction time and reprimand time.

So my point is that you should always give your trust not wait for it to be earned.

Having said that I understand where you are coming from so don't assume by what I say it means anything else.

Earning trust in the sense you are using it is also valid. Thus both are true. Degrees of is probably the point at hand.

Regards.G.

kewms
11-01-2011, 11:10 PM
You make a point but nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned going past any point of tolerance.

Sure you did. You mentioned going past the point at which your partner taps out.

Katherine

kewms
11-01-2011, 11:19 PM
In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat.

There are beginners. There are out of town visitors. There are new students with unknown experience elsewhere. There are other mats, at other dojos.

Yes, certainly I have a great deal of trust in my instructor and the other students at my dojo. Otherwise I wouldn't train there. But blindly extending that level of trust to strangers? No. And even with the dojo, there are degrees of trust: I know them well enough to know the difference between the ultrasensitive yudansha and the junior white belt who doesn't know his own strength.

Katherine

Tim Ruijs
11-02-2011, 03:02 AM
Graham

Too bad I could not participate in this discussion earlier. I see your point and I think we actually do agree.
In the situation you describe where aite taps out early and you feel it is too early, I would hold just where aite tapped and ask to relax and see if he/she can stretch a bit further. Sometimes it already hurts, sometimes you notice aite relaxes even more and indeed can stretch more. Main point is when aite taps, you at least stop. This is a case of trust, the base on which Aikido is built.

So, in principle it does no matter why aite taps out, but when you are more advanced you can judge the call aite made and perhaps help him/her face fear/stretch. But never continue after aite taps out, it is not your call.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed. Could not agree more Katherine!

graham christian
11-02-2011, 07:25 AM
Graham

Too bad I could not participate in this discussion earlier. I see your point and I think we actually do agree.
In the situation you describe where aite taps out early and you feel it is too early, I would hold just where aite tapped and ask to relax and see if he/she can stretch a bit further. Sometimes it already hurts, sometimes you notice aite relaxes even more and indeed can stretch more. Main point is when aite taps, you at least stop. This is a case of trust, the base on which Aikido is built.

So, in principle it does no matter why aite taps out, but when you are more advanced you can judge the call aite made and perhaps help him/her face fear/stretch. But never continue after aite taps out, it is not your call.

The level of trust you're asking for must be earned, and should never be assumed. Could not agree more Katherine!

Hi Tim.
Can we please differentiate here. Let's look at it as two sides of a coin. On one side we have the obeyance of the rule no matter what. You will find I have agreed with that already earlier in the thread.

On the other side of the coin we have the times uke is tapping out for the reasons I describe. A fear of something which isn't actually happening.

Hidden injuries etc. fit in with side one. As I agree with side one then there is no argument.

Side two is what I point out and ask for inspection of. Yourself and Robin seem to recognise what I am saying.

When I say not to follow the rule in these circumstances that doesn't equal carry on past the point of the person tapping out. It means go no further but don't let go. If anything relax the pressure whilst still holding. This gives the person time to realize nothing has happened yet and the cause of the imagined danger is theirself. Thus they learn. Now you will have really earned their trust.

When they know you know the difference then the trust grows. They know they are in safe hands.

I have seen quite a few characters over the years who suffer from this phenomenon and usually sit back and watch for a while. Let's take nikkyo. A person does nikkyo and this fellow goes down hard or awkwardly with a whelp and nage immediately lets go. The uke complains and blames and nage feels bad and apologetic. Now this fellow moves onto the next partner and a version of what happened before reoccurs. I watch him work his way through the class or find an excuse to stop. Meanwhile there's two or three confused students all now scared to do nikkyo. It's quite amusing.

I now call him and go to apply nikkyo. He's already on the way down and pulling away both. Tapping his leg. My hold is relaxed, my attitude is calm and reassuring, my smile is warm. I point out nothing has happened yet and he relaxes. This opens the door to show him what a good nikkyo is and to show him how to relax in the face of it and then onto how to relax in the face of a not so good one also.

Those watching learn what was happening. This fellow now is busy telling me about his past times and what was done to him. Everyone learns and everyones happy doing so.

Trust is earned.

In these circumstances hands on is the solution, not a quiet word for he is not afraid of quiet words. He is actually looking for someone who can correct him in a good way to a good result and improved performance.

I will qualify this with one thing. If you are not able to differentiate or have any doubt whatsoever then let go. Call an experienced person or teacher to check what's happening.

However, in these types of situations if it is not handled but merely given into all the time then trust will never be earned and you won't see that student again. Hands on, no letting go, good solution.

Regards.G.

jonreading
11-02-2011, 08:43 AM
Well I disagree here. It is very important to be aware of why uke is tapping out and that's basically my main point. If you're not aware of why then you prohibit your own learning.

As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go.

Are we teaching people to recognise reality here or are we teaching them to fear?

It all sounds good that you must let go no matter what but on inspection I find it's not always the case.

Now before you think I am mentioning a very rare occurrence I assure you I am not. The number of times I have come across people tapping out for what they assume is about to happen and the number of times I have come across people throwing themselves into perfect, artistic, breakfalls for what they assume is about to happen is numerous.

Fear of what might be causes this including avoidance of possible pain. Aikido in my mind should be teaching how to face, harmonize with, be in present time. Thus I am not led by false tap outs.

Regards.G.

My head is spinning. I kept hoping to read a post that clarified what Graham is saying, but he kept digging the hole... No means yes? At best, you are vaguely referring to a relationship in which you are empowered to help uke push his limits, at worst you have just described an assault.

1. Uke has the right to tap out whenever he wants, for whatever reason he sees fit. Nage has the obligation to respect and obey that request.
2. Partners with trusting relationships may empower each other to increase the environmental stress (and danger) to each other's person.
3. It is NEVER the role of the sensei to empower himself to "rectify" deficiencies in a student without obtaining consent from that student.
4. Trust is earned by establishing safe and respectful training environments, not because you are sensei.

I think you are trying to point out that in training we are supposed to create scenarios that push our boundaries. Personally, this is what I believe. Yes, eventually we want our students to understand the proper timing of ukemi. Good uke need to learn to hang in until nage no longer presents suki. But the notion that nage may do this in the interest of uke and not necessarily with his consent is disturbing, especially coming from a teacher.

You have now had several responsive posts that did not address some of the posters comments and I cannot help but to respond as well. You need to clarify your statements and consolidate your message.

"Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei! Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei!"

Basia Halliop
11-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Can we please differentiate here. Let's look at it as two sides of a coin. On one side we have the obeyance of the rule no matter what. You will find I have agreed with that already earlier in the thread.

No, you can't have it both ways, because you're directly contradicting yourself. You can't say it's their right to decide what you're allowed to do to THEIR body, then say 'unless it's for a bad reason'. It's just not up to you. Sorry. Your opinion, no matter how correct and brilliant and insightful, just doesn't MATTER.

It's not like it's even that hard to convince someone to go really slowly and show them you'll keep going really slowly and let them discover for themselves that it doesn't hurt as soon as they thought it would. I've done that more than once, and I'm not even particularly advanced, nor do I claim to have your exceptional judgment or ability to read the situation. If you go slowly and smoothly, you don't even HAVE to be a genius or know your partner better than they know themselves.

graham christian
11-02-2011, 11:14 AM
My head is spinning. I kept hoping to read a post that clarified what Graham is saying, but he kept digging the hole... No means yes? At best, you are vaguely referring to a relationship in which you are empowered to help uke push his limits, at worst you have just described an assault.

1. Uke has the right to tap out whenever he wants, for whatever reason he sees fit. Nage has the obligation to respect and obey that request.
2. Partners with trusting relationships may empower each other to increase the environmental stress (and danger) to each other's person.
3. It is NEVER the role of the sensei to empower himself to "rectify" deficiencies in a student without obtaining consent from that student.
4. Trust is earned by establishing safe and respectful training environments, not because you are sensei.

I think you are trying to point out that in training we are supposed to create scenarios that push our boundaries. Personally, this is what I believe. Yes, eventually we want our students to understand the proper timing of ukemi. Good uke need to learn to hang in until nage no longer presents suki. But the notion that nage may do this in the interest of uke and not necessarily with his consent is disturbing, especially coming from a teacher.

You have now had several responsive posts that did not address some of the posters comments and I cannot help but to respond as well. You need to clarify your statements and consolidate your message.

"Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei! Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei!"

Jon. I've explained as best I can. When expanding on the point for clarification then comments such as digging a whole don't make sense. So, not knowing why you see what you do in what I've written I'll attempt to clarify using your points.

Point 2, agreed.
Point 4, Not agreed. Reread what I said and you'll see my view ie: Trust is increased through good capable handling.
Point 3. Not agreed. Students come to be taught well and thus the Sensei is already empowered to correct and improve otherwise why is the student or the sensei there?
Point1. If you don't understand through what I said then I have no other way of putting it.

Where you get trust is earned.............not because you are Sensei from I don't know.

Where you get thoughts of pushing limits or assault from beggars belief.

A simple fact of being able to differentiate seems to freak a lot of you out. I sit here in amazement wondering why?

As you and others here are always shouting about keeping it real then I feel sorry for you if you had to use a control technique for real. In real life the person will scream blue murder in order for you to let go 90% of the time NOT because it hurts but because they want to knock your block off.

Another misunderstanding here I think is most who are unaware of what I'm talking about or against it seem to me to be talking purely about pins. I am not.

Pins come at the end of a move and when addressing only pins then what they say fits, I put them on side one of the coin also.

The situations I described had nothing to do with pins, in fact Nikkyo was the named technique I used for explanation.

While I'm at it let's get more real shall we? An example of tapping out in real life. You're helping an old lady or man up from a chair or a wheelchair. They put their hand out and asked you to help them up. Half way up they 'yelp' (equivalent to tapping out) Do you let go? No, you immediately move to make them comfortable and ask what's wrong.

Blindly following rules is no excuse. It makes you more blind.

Regards.G.

kewms
11-02-2011, 11:21 AM
When I say not to follow the rule in these circumstances that doesn't equal carry on past the point of the person tapping out. It means go no further but don't let go. If anything relax the pressure whilst still holding. This gives the person time to realize nothing has happened yet and the cause of the imagined danger is theirself. Thus they learn. Now you will have really earned their trust.

When they know you know the difference then the trust grows. They know they are in safe hands.

I have seen quite a few characters over the years who suffer from this phenomenon and usually sit back and watch for a while. Let's take nikkyo. A person does nikkyo and this fellow goes down hard or awkwardly with a whelp and nage immediately lets go. The uke complains and blames and nage feels bad and apologetic. Now this fellow moves onto the next partner and a version of what happened before reoccurs. I watch him work his way through the class or find an excuse to stop. Meanwhile there's two or three confused students all now scared to do nikkyo. It's quite amusing.

I now call him and go to apply nikkyo. He's already on the way down and pulling away both. Tapping his leg. My hold is relaxed, my attitude is calm and reassuring, my smile is warm. I point out nothing has happened yet and he relaxes. This opens the door to show him what a good nikkyo is and to show him how to relax in the face of it and then onto how to relax in the face of a not so good one also.

Why didn't you say so in the first place? Yes, this is a reasonable approach to this sort of situation.

Earlier in the thread, you scoffed at someone for using personal experiences to support a point of view. But examples and personal experiences are a lot more concrete than generalities and platitudes.

Katherine

graham christian
11-02-2011, 12:09 PM
No, you can't have it both ways, because you're directly contradicting yourself. You can't say it's their right to decide what you're allowed to do to THEIR body, then say 'unless it's for a bad reason'. It's just not up to you. Sorry. Your opinion, no matter how correct and brilliant and insightful, just doesn't MATTER.

It's not like it's even that hard to convince someone to go really slowly and show them you'll keep going really slowly and let them discover for themselves that it doesn't hurt as soon as they thought it would. I've done that more than once, and I'm not even particularly advanced, nor do I claim to have your exceptional judgment or ability to read the situation. If you go slowly and smoothly, you don't even HAVE to be a genius or know your partner better than they know themselves.

Basia. I just recognised and pointed out in the above reply to Jon that some may think I'm taliking about pins. Not so.

In my examples no one is DOING anything TO or AGAINST the others body. Quite the reverse.

Which part of 'tapping out BEFORE you've done anything are you confused about?

I specifically point to those who tap out in anticipation. That's very specific. Maybe I should add continually.

Anyone taking this outside of that specific group I can only think are either not used to it, oblivious to it or just argumentative.

You, as some others have done, go on to say how I claim an exceptional ability and you go further calling it genius. I'm amazed once again. All I can say is if you few represent the majority then no wonder Aikido is floundering.

Either therefore I am exceptional or else what I consider normal and standard is far higher than what most do.

I ask you to consider not blindly stick to a rule. I could give many examples where it's best not to let go when uke is tapping, for their own good and I may add to prevent injury or 'further' injury. Many my friend, not one or two. The solution is and always will be differentiation whether you like it or not. For example tapping out is a communication and knowing instantly what that communication is is necessary. So it's not just tapping out is tapping out is tapping out.

Now, I'm tapping out.

Regards.G.

graham christian
11-02-2011, 12:28 PM
Why didn't you say so in the first place? Yes, this is a reasonable approach to this sort of situation.

Earlier in the thread, you scoffed at someone for using personal experiences to support a point of view. But examples and personal experiences are a lot more concrete than generalities and platitudes.

Katherine

Ahhh. Thank you. At last.

Yes Katherine I am guilty on no doubt a few counts. I am guilty of not putting it in a clear enough way. I am guilty of assuming enough words were put in the right way to convey my concept. I am guilty of no doubt a few more things as befits communication on a forum.

I am also guilty of putting things as you describe in a concrete way based on personal experience for example in real life situations or on the mat only to be disbelieved or scoffed at.

Different strokes for different folks I would say.

Regards.G.

Basia Halliop
11-02-2011, 12:49 PM
Maybe we're misunderstanding each other in part, but it's possible we may also partly disagree.

I don't actually think you have an exceptional ability, by the way, I just think it wouldn't matter one way or another if you do. The reason I said that was because I understood you to be implying that it's OK to override someone's clearly communicated choice if you know better than them. I was using exaggeration to disagree -- i.e., there is no level of excellence I can imagine which would give someone that right. If that's not what you were actually arguing, then sorry for misunderstanding.

Certainly, what someone is trying to communicate matters. E.g., in the case of the old lady, she's not in any way asking you to 'let go of her', and it's quite reasonable to suspect that she in fact probably hopes you won't, so clearly you should not do so (at least not without asking her to clarify and being quite sure that's what she wants). She's just saying 'something's wrong', so you stop and figure out what's wrong and what she wants you do to or not do. That I certainly agree with.

If they're not telling you to let go of them, if that's not what tapping means in your dojo, then sure, it's different. If they just mean 'stop increasing the pressure', then stop increasing the pressure. And of course much communication can be non-verbal - you can communicate a lot with a pause or a raised eyebrow.

All I insist on is that if they ARE clearly communicating a choice to you (e.g., stop putting on the pressure, stop touching me, don't do that again, whatever it is that they're telling you), then you have no right to go against their choice, regardless of whether their choice is a poor choice or a good choice or even just a silly choice. (although you are of course free to try to change their mind). Several of your posts gave me a strong impression that you don't fully agree with this principle. If that's not what you meant, then perhaps we don't actually disagree.

Certainly, I think we agree that you need to look at the situation and see what's actually being communicated and make sure you and uke are on the same page. No disagreement there.

The 'someone trying to kill you' example is spurious, IMO. We are not talking about situations where your own safety is in danger.

Earlier in the thread, you scoffed at someone for using personal experiences to support a point of view. But examples and personal experiences are a lot more concrete than generalities and platitudes.
Yes, sometimes it's easier to see what someone really means with an example.

Basia Halliop
11-02-2011, 12:58 PM
Which part of 'tapping out BEFORE you've done anything are you confused about?

I believe you're talking about the sort of situation where, e.g., you start to put your hands in a position to do something, and they tap before you actually put any pressure on at all. I just think it doesn't change the question. They do have the right to ask you to let go of them before you do anything, to not put a joint lock on them at all, etc, even if you are in no way hurting them or even really doing anything. Of course there are many ways, (both verbal and non verbal), to convince them to change their mind, and some of these 'conversations' can happen quickly with body language, where you can 'ask' in a non verbal way and they can 'agree' in a non verbal way, but you both understand each other and agree so it's fine.

kewms
11-02-2011, 01:30 PM
Point 3. Not agreed. Students come to be taught well and thus the Sensei is already empowered to correct and improve otherwise why is the student or the sensei there?

All the good teachers I've encountered understand that their position of power means they must be MORE trustworthy. Trust cannot be demanded, it must be freely given.

Katherine

graham christian
11-02-2011, 01:43 PM
I believe you're talking about the sort of situation where, e.g., you start to put your hands in a position to do something, and they tap before you actually put any pressure on at all. I just think it doesn't change the question. They do have the right to ask you to let go of them before you do anything, to not put a joint lock on them at all, etc, even if you are in no way hurting them or even really doing anything. Of course there are many ways, (both verbal and non verbal), to convince them to change their mind, and some of these 'conversations' can happen quickly with body language, where you can 'ask' in a non verbal way and they can 'agree' in a non verbal way, but you both understand each other and agree so it's fine.

Thanks for that reply. I can assure you if the tapping out is a 'let go' communication then I let go.

I think you'll find in the example of nikkyo the communication is not 'let go' in fact it's more of a panick reaction.

Anyway, I'll now add a bit of history just for your amusement rather than for debate. How I was taught. Not however how I teach. Old school I'd call it.

When doing so called warm ups in the advanced classes we would be doing things continuously for at least half an hour. Aikitaiso would be done according to what he called out in number ie: Backward ukemi ten, followed by ten, followed by twenty, followed by foreward ukemi ten etc. etc. non stop. Continuous foreward ukemis around the mat from kness and backward too. Now his rules were different. He would walk around with his little stick. If you floundered, whack. If you complained bigger wack. If you tapped out through exhaustion whack. His rule was 'you've had enough when I say you have'

Strange as it may seem we liked it and it took us to getting through barriers we were sure we couldn't. No one ever got injured this way either. A few red patches ha,ha.

Meanwhile when it came to pins if you complained he'd do it more. If you whelped or said anything at all in any manner he'd do it more. His rules here were but two. If you tap out early you're gonna feel pain. If you use your mouth in any way your gonna feel extreme pain. On the other side of the coin was if you tap out when you are certain it's 'on' and you are correct AND you tap out in complete silence he would immediately let go and tell you well done.

Once again shock, horror, he overrode ukes determinism as standard procedure. Once again he always seemed to know how far he could go as no one ever got up injured. Once again a different set of lessons learned. Once again we all enjoyed it too. Well, the five of us who survived that class as three said not for them thank you very much.

I don't know how close that type of training is to old school Japanese training but we were led to believe so. It was almost a cardinal sin and sign of complete and utter weakness to even murmur if you felt pain yet it was also a cardinal sin not to let go if the person tapped without any sound coming from their mouth.

Just a little window into the past or rather my past. Funny thing is they are still fond memories.

Regards.G.

graham christian
11-02-2011, 01:49 PM
All the good teachers I've encountered understand that their position of power means they must be MORE trustworthy. Trust cannot be demanded, it must be freely given.

Katherine

Couldn't agree more. Demand is not in my 'vocabulary' so to speak. With greater power comes the need for even greater responsibility.

Regards.G.

jonreading
11-02-2011, 02:36 PM
Jon. I've explained as best I can. When expanding on the point for clarification then comments such as digging a whole don't make sense. So, not knowing why you see what you do in what I've written I'll attempt to clarify using your points. In post 56, you say "As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go." This is an advocation to assume authority over your partner and decline a request to cease the technique.

Point 2, agreed.
Point 4, Not agreed. Reread what I said and you'll see my view ie: Trust is increased through good capable handling. My 4th point was "Trust is earned by establishing safe and respectful training environments, not because you are sensei." In post 68 you say, "In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat. When someone betrays that trust then you enter correction time and reprimand time. So my point is that you should always give your trust not wait for it to be earned."
Point 3. Not agreed. Students come to be taught well and thus the Sensei is already empowered to correct and improve otherwise why is the student or the sensei there? My 3rd point was "It is NEVER the role of the sensei to empower himself to "rectify" deficiencies in a student without obtaining consent from that student." A sensei should always seek consent from students. There is no discussion here, without consent you are committing assault.
Point1. If you don't understand through what I said then I have no other way of putting it. My 1st point was "Uke has the right to tap out whenever he wants, for whatever reason he sees fit. Nage has the obligation to respect and obey that request." In post 56, you say "As I've said earlier you get ukes tapping out because of what they think is about to happen, usually based on past 'bad' experiences. That's not the time to let go." Is this, or is this not an advocation to assume authority over your partner and decline a request to cease the technique.

Where you get trust is earned.............not because you are Sensei from I don't know.
In post 68 you say, "In a dojo it is, or should be, a place of inherent trust in each other otherwise in my opinion it's not a good dojo. Therefore trust should be given as soon as you step on the mat. When someone betrays that trust then you enter correction time and reprimand time. So my point is that you should always give your trust not wait for it to be earned." While you are using passive language, I can only assume the trust you are giving is to the instructional body, sensei. If that is not the case, perhaps you should be identify the subject of your sentences.

Where you get thoughts of pushing limits or assault from beggars belief.
In the US, acting upon an individual without his consent is a crime, assault. As pointed out above, you advocate action upon an individual, not necessarily with consent. Incidentally, I do not mention "beggars". Secondly, In my 2nd point, to which you responded "agree" in your post, You concede that partners who trust each other may use that trust to increase environmental stress in their training, to push their limits.

A simple fact of being able to differentiate seems to freak a lot of you out. I sit here in amazement wondering why?
I did not address this point because I have no position on the argument whether I am able to differentiate when my partner really wants to stop our interaction and when she is simply "bluffing". I am disturbed by your seeming advocation to continue interaction after your partner has asked you to stop.

As you and others here are always shouting about keeping it real then I feel sorry for you if you had to use a control technique for real. In real life the person will scream blue murder in order for you to let go 90% of the time NOT because it hurts but because they want to knock your block off.
What does this have to do with anything in my post? Is this based on a real-life experience that you wish to share as proof of your position? Didn't you chastise Katherine in post 64 for posting personal experiences to back up a point of view? Yes, as a tangental point, habitualized termination points can cause premature termination in real-world scenarios. Judo players who stop after a throw, officers who holster weapons after 3 rounds, aikido people who... Well, you get the point. However, this is not germaine to my post.

Another misunderstanding here I think is most who are unaware of what I'm talking about or against it seem to me to be talking purely about pins. I am not.
I mention this no where in my post, nor is it relevant to my post. This is another tangental point not germane to the conversation.

Pins come at the end of a move and when addressing only pins then what they say fits, I put them on side one of the coin also.
I mention this no where in my post, nor is it relevant to my post. This is another tangental point not germane to the conversation.

The situations I described had nothing to do with pins, in fact Nikkyo was the named technique I used for explanation.
I mention this no where in my post, nor is it relevant to my post. This is another tangental point not germane to the conversation.

While I'm at it let's get more real shall we? An example of tapping out in real life. You're helping an old lady or man up from a chair or a wheelchair. They put their hand out and asked you to help them up. Half way up they 'yelp' (equivalent to tapping out) Do you let go? No, you immediately move to make them comfortable and ask what's wrong.
This is a poor "real" scenario. As pointed out, this is not analogous to the thread. 1. the subject has consented to your aid; 2. the subject is damaged by an injury unrelated to your interaction (i.e. she would be in pain standing up whether or not you assisted).

Blindly following rules is no excuse. It makes you more blind.
I don't even know what this means. Except maybe some demeaning comment meant to imply you are not blind.

Regards.G.

I'll have a go at this to re-iterate my point about avoiding posts... I have edited your response to my post.

I wish I could edit with line-out, about half of your post is irrelevant to my request to clarify your existing points. As I said in my earlier post, instead of consolidating and clarifying the several post you have already made, you choose to make more posts with more tangental comments that require more explanation.

I don't necessarily have anything against your comments because I do not yet understand them. When I ask for clarification, I am being serious because I want to understand your points. Even if they are points with which I do not agree I appreciate differing perspectives.

On a grander scale, would it then agree that your larger perspective is that poor uke waza is a reflection of poor nage waza, since nage possesses and inherent right to correct uke, with or without his consent?

Joe McParland
11-02-2011, 10:12 PM
The thread is a long read, so forgive me if someone's hit this point already:

If while performing a technique as nage you experience concerns about the performance of uke--too compliant, too resistant, or whatever--you've just been disrupted with something as hard as an atemi. Uke has, intentionally or unintentionally, taken your mind.

It's that same disruption of expected response--the leading, the entering, the turning, the off-balancing, the kiai, the atemi, the application of pain just so, …--that moves practitioners beyond the mechanics of technique ("form"). The concern that uke is "wrong," is a signal of nage's own expectation.

That's not to say that there's not a time for this or that kind of practice--or that uke is "right;" it's only a caution: masakatsu agatsu and all that.

graham christian
11-03-2011, 01:38 AM
I'll have a go at this to re-iterate my point about avoiding posts... I have edited your response to my post.

I wish I could edit with line-out, about half of your post is irrelevant to my request to clarify your existing points. As I said in my earlier post, instead of consolidating and clarifying the several post you have already made, you choose to make more posts with more tangental comments that require more explanation.

I don't necessarily have anything against your comments because I do not yet understand them. When I ask for clarification, I am being serious because I want to understand your points. Even if they are points with which I do not agree I appreciate differing perspectives.

On a grander scale, would it then agree that your larger perspective is that poor uke waza is a reflection of poor nage waza, since nage possesses and inherent right to correct uke, with or without his consent?

Hi Jon. A considered reply I must say. There is a confusion granted. On reading the thread I find I have already explained the points you mention. Thinking that I add some in case you think what springs to my mind, assumption on my part. Therefore I believe that it's either my meanings I have for the words I use being different to yours or finding a way of putting it befitting to you.

So I'll just take what you ask above for my aim is to be understood as yours is to understand after which point I'm happy with either agreement or disagreement.

So the answer to your question is no, that's not my perspective. So you can throw that idea away and proceed to your next question for I am averse to assuming what it may be.

Regards.G.

dapidmini
11-03-2011, 03:51 AM
I'm glad that my dojos' students (I've been training in 2 dojos) are not very compliant. they love sports so they can put enough resistance. sometimes even too much that I wasn't able to do the technique.. :uch: although, the skinny ones can't put up enough resistance I was hoping for..

my previous dojo concentrate on the "Musubi" concept so we have to put forth some pressure against our partners, while my current dojo concentrate on making the techniques work so the teacher gets fussy whenever a student falls on his own..

RonRagusa
11-03-2011, 08:33 AM
If while performing a technique as nage you experience concerns about the performance of uke--too compliant, too resistant, or whatever--you've just been disrupted with something as hard as an atemi. Uke has, intentionally or unintentionally, taken your mind.

Hi Joe -

Your remark puts this thread to rest.

Best,

Ron

raul rodrigo
11-03-2011, 09:20 AM
So when Tsuruzo Miyamoto 7th dan corrects an uchi deshi of Hombu Dojo for a mistake in his ukemi with a swift punch to the midsection (something I saw firsthand), whose mind has been taken? Who has been disrupted?

ninjaqutie
11-03-2011, 11:56 AM
So when Tsuruzo Miyamoto 7th dan corrects an uchi deshi of Hombu Dojo for a mistake in his ukemi with a swift punch to the midsection (something I saw firsthand), whose mind has been taken? Who has been disrupted?

I think that is a bit vague... I mean, how many times did he try to help him correct his ukemi? If that doesn't sink in, occassionally, showing them why taking ukemi that way is wrong is helpful. My instructor commonly showed me why not to do things by lightly throwing an atemi at my face or stomach. Plus, if this reaction was natural for the sensei.... then it can be argued that his mind wasn't taken at all and that he remained in the moment. If it was planned, vicious and done with malice.... then that is a different story. Your interpretation of any of the above statements doesn't neccesarily mean that was how it was, but something to keep in mind.

kewms
11-03-2011, 05:59 PM
If you floundered, whack. If you complained bigger wack. If you tapped out through exhaustion whack. His rule was 'you've had enough when I say you have'

Strange as it may seem we liked it and it took us to getting through barriers we were sure we couldn't.

I'm not going to say your teacher was abusive. I wasn't there. But I will say that this precise attitude is how situations that are abusive continue: the survivors view the experience as strengthening and/or empowering. "That which doesn't kill us, makes us stronger."

Katherine

raul rodrigo
11-03-2011, 08:17 PM
I think that is a bit vague... I mean, how many times did he try to help him correct his ukemi? If that doesn't sink in, occassionally, showing them why taking ukemi that way is wrong is helpful. My instructor commonly showed me why not to do things by lightly throwing an atemi at my face or stomach. Plus, if this reaction was natural for the sensei.... then it can be argued that his mind wasn't taken at all and that he remained in the moment. If it was planned, vicious and done with malice.... then that is a different story. Your interpretation of any of the above statements doesn't neccesarily mean that was how it was, but something to keep in mind.

The uchi-deshi left an opening, Miyamoto took the opening. No pause, no hesitation, no malice. The standard for the deshi (who will be Hombu teachers some day) is much higher than for the rest of us (I made a mistake in my ukemi later that same class and he just corrected me verbally and by pointing to where I lost the connection). The deshi take four to five classes a day, six days a week, and they work out among themselves during the breaks. Miyamoto did the natural thing, the quickest correction to someone who is supposed to paying very close attention to him.

raul rodrigo
11-03-2011, 08:26 PM
As tori, I am always concerned about how uke is doing—if he is moving late, behind the technique, or ahead of the technique, or just on his own without reference to my movement. It's our continuing responsiveness to each other that makes what we doing waza, not just kata (to use a distinction that Endo likes to make). It's this continuing connection that makes it aikido. As tori, I adjust to what I am given and try not to correct ukemi unless a safety issue is involved. In that same class of Miyamoto I referred to above, he also took pains not to correct an uke when he was doing jiyuwaza in front of the entire class with non-deshi; he would work with whatever he is given. (The deshi are his responsibility and their mistakes reflect on him.) His waza then came out of the moment. He once did a technique with a partner at least 14 inches taller; he made a slight miscalculation on the distance which in turn made the technique lift him slightly off his center. He laughed and said to the class: "Too big."

graham christian
11-03-2011, 09:31 PM
I'm not going to say your teacher was abusive. I wasn't there. But I will say that this precise attitude is how situations that are abusive continue: the survivors view the experience as strengthening and/or empowering. "That which doesn't kill us, makes us stronger."

Katherine

That,s your view. I would say that's a complete misreading. The most valid thing you say is that you were not there.

After that point maybe you should either enquire more or or admit all else is assumption, probably way off track.

Regards.G.

Anthony Loeppert
11-03-2011, 10:09 PM
After that point maybe you should either enquire more or or admit all else is assumption, probably way off track.

Regards.G.

If only you practice what you preach.

Stockholm syndrome?

Joe McParland
11-03-2011, 10:12 PM
So when Tsuruzo Miyamoto 7th dan corrects an uchi deshi of Hombu Dojo for a mistake in his ukemi with a swift punch to the midsection (something I saw firsthand), whose mind has been taken? Who has been disrupted?

Seven years bad luck.

graham christian
11-03-2011, 10:44 PM
If only you practice what you preach.

Stockholm syndrome?

Nice sermon.

Anthony Loeppert
11-03-2011, 11:10 PM
Nice sermon.

Amen brother!

Mary Eastland
11-05-2011, 08:47 AM
Aikido can't really have a reputation. Anyone who sits around disparaging it probably needs to get busy doing something else.

Learning how to be a good uke is not easy. It really is a dedicated practice. Listen to your instructor and really try to put into motion the ideas your instructor is talking about. Maybe you will learn some things about yourself.

I was taught Aikido is not about fighting...I have to let go of what I think I know all the time. Then I can really learn.

SteveTrinkle
09-23-2012, 05:06 PM
http://www.wioverly co,pliant uke :this is how it begins:http://www.wimp.com/dogtrampoline/

gregstec
09-24-2012, 07:42 AM
http://www.wioverly co,pliant uke :this is how it begins:http://www.wimp.com/dogtrampoline/

That dog will have back problems later in life if he keeps up those break-falls :D