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torbjornsaw
10-21-2011, 09:49 PM
Before invading another country we send our spies in. They infiltrate the nerve centers without being noticed. At the time of full scale attack they cut the supply lines and destroy the electrical power stations. Caught off-guard the enemy rush to their battle stations only to be picked off one after one. Without their essential power supply they loose all their counter force and are easily overrun. Without any delay we occupy the main crossroads and key locations, hold the high ground and send our spies even further ahead, to infiltrate the very heart of resistance. Without firing even one shot we flood the enemy land with our own forces, occupying it to squeeze out any remaining opposition. In one well planned and well executed strike we manage to neutralize and overtake our opponent without much loss on either side.

graham christian
10-21-2011, 10:09 PM
Not very spiritual. Not very Aikido either.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
10-22-2011, 12:30 AM
Not very spiritual. Not very Aikido either.

Regards.G.

“Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?”

“You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war… an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word ‘aiki’ because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given (“Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That’s the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called ‘aiki no jutsu’. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki.” “Is that so… I think I understand.” “If you still don’t understand, come to me again.” After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=369

Best,

Chris

graham christian
10-22-2011, 08:26 AM
Makes sense for 1933. As for Aikido or spiritual......nah.

Regards.G.

torbjornsaw
10-22-2011, 08:28 AM
Before openly engaging in a sensitive and non-violent physical response to an aggressive attack we penetrate and pervade him with loving kindness long before him knowing about it. We enter his soul through a spiritual insight revealing his ego strongholds. With this preemptive attitude we disarm his ability to launch effectively and we neutralize his intention to attack and channel his aggression back onto himself. Overwhelming him with a feeling of peace we control the situation.

graham christian
10-22-2011, 08:38 AM
Beautifully put.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
10-22-2011, 12:08 PM
Makes sense for 1933. As for Aikido or spiritual......nah.

Regards.G.

That would be difficult, since Tadashi Abe didn't even begin Aikido until 1942.

Ueshiba did think enough of Mochizuki that he wanted to adopt him into the family and make him his successor. In 1951 he taught Aikido in Europe with Ueshiba's blessing. His 10th dan was specifically approved by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in 1979.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
10-22-2011, 02:09 PM
That would be difficult, since Tadashi Abe didn't even begin Aikido until 1942.

Ueshiba did think enough of Mochizuki that he wanted to adopt him into the family and make him his successor. In 1951 he taught Aikido in Europe with Ueshiba's blessing. His 10th dan was specifically approved by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in 1979.

Best,

Chris

Still makes sense. He says that meeting was just after the war so must be around 1945.

What it's got to do with the o/p I don't know.

That particular time however was not Aikido, it was Aiki jujutsu. As to how spiritual that particular incident was I suppose depends on the charachters involved and the point being made.

Regards.G.

Carsten Mllering
10-22-2011, 02:15 PM
... That particular time however was not Aikido, it was Aiki jujutsu. ...
Wasn't it called Aiki budo then?

But does it make any difference (or why does it make a difference) how Ueshiba's way was called then?

graham christian
10-22-2011, 02:29 PM
Wasn't it called Aiki budo then?

But does it make any difference (or why does it make a difference) how Ueshiba's way was called then?

In the article he states Aiki jujutsu. The difference is Ueshiba changed 'everything' after the war and developed it into what was called Aikido, a name he was completely satisfied with.

It's important because no doubt many didn't like the changes and wanted to cling to the old ways and meanings of budo. Many even now.

Regards.G.

Gorgeous George
10-22-2011, 03:30 PM
As to how spiritual that particular incident was I suppose depends on the charachters involved and the point being made.

Regards.G.

This is a brilliant statement.

Chris Li
10-22-2011, 03:58 PM
In the article he states Aiki jujutsu. The difference is Ueshiba changed 'everything' after the war and developed it into what was called Aikido, a name he was completely satisfied with.

It's important because no doubt many didn't like the changes and wanted to cling to the old ways and meanings of budo. Many even now.

Regards.G.

It's not nearly as clear cut as that.

It was called "Aikido" from 1942.

Morihiro Saito stated quite repeatedly that what he was shown by Ueshiba in the 1960's was closest to what appears in the 1938 manual "Budo" - somewhat different than what Kisshomaru and Tohei were showing in Tokyo.

Anyway, he didn't actually chose the name - it was chosen by committee at the Dai Nihon Butokukai, although he did choose to stick with it later.

Kisshomaru always cited the key revelations behind Aikido as occurring in 1925.

The old ways of Budo? Here's a quick and famous quote - "Strategies for war become strategies for peace". Can you name the year? If you can, then what does that do to your pre-war/post-war dichotomy?

Best,

Chris

Gorgeous George
10-22-2011, 04:22 PM
It's not nearly as clear cut as that.

It was called "Aikido" from 1942.

Morihiro Saito stated quite repeatedly that what he was shown by Ueshiba in the 1960's was closest to what appears in the 1938 manual "Budo" - somewhat different than what Kisshomaru and Tohei were showing in Tokyo.

Anyway, he didn't actually chose the name - it was chosen by committee at the Dai Nihon Butokukai, although he did choose to stick with it later.

Kisshomaru always cited the key revelations behind Aikido as occurring in 1925.

The old ways of Budo? Here's a quick and famous quote - "Strategies for war become strategies for peace". Can you name the year? If you can, then what does that do to your pre-war/post-war dichotomy?

Best,

Chris

Thank you.
I was quite sure 'Aikido' was given that name in 1942 (something to do with excluding it from a pro-war category, alongside other martial arts?)

Chris Li
10-22-2011, 05:05 PM
Thank you.
I was quite sure 'Aikido' was given that name in 1942 (something to do with excluding it from a pro-war category, alongside other martial arts?)

It was part of the general organization of the martial arts by the Japanese government under the management of the Dai Nihon Butokukai.

Aikido was certainly not anti-war at that time or any other. Ueshiba taught the special forces personally. He also taught wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tojo through the group at Kenkoku University (in occupied Manchuria). Even after the war and through to today, the Aikikai maintains strong (if quiet) ties to the right wing.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
10-22-2011, 05:22 PM
It's not nearly as clear cut as that.

It was called "Aikido" from 1942.

Morihiro Saito stated quite repeatedly that what he was shown by Ueshiba in the 1960's was closest to what appears in the 1938 manual "Budo" - somewhat different than what Kisshomaru and Tohei were showing in Tokyo.

Anyway, he didn't actually chose the name - it was chosen by committee at the Dai Nihon Butokukai, although he did choose to stick with it later.

Kisshomaru always cited the key revelations behind Aikido as occurring in 1925.

The old ways of Budo? Here's a quick and famous quote - "Strategies for war become strategies for peace". Can you name the year? If you can, then what does that do to your pre-war/post-war dichotomy?

Best,

Chris

It's not as clearly cut as that to you but it is to me.

This isn't about who coined the word Aikido.

Saito? What does most closely resembles mean? From what perspective? In what context? What was the subject under discussion when he mentioned such and what point was he trying to make and to whom?

Kisshomaru? Cited when seen fit and yet put down when seen fit also.

Now your strategy and budo sayings? No I don't know. Obviously you feel they have some significant value. Feel free to enlighten me. Maybe that's what you are connecting to the o/p.

Regards.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-22-2011, 05:46 PM
Saito? What does most closely resembles mean? From what perspective? In what context? What was the subject under discussion when he mentioned such and what point was he trying to make and to whom?
Considering the fact Bjorn, the OP, is a high level practitioner of the Iwama style aikido, he could explain it better to you.

Chris Li
10-22-2011, 05:49 PM
It's not as clearly cut as that to you but it is to me.

This isn't about who coined the word Aikido.

Saito? What does most closely resembles mean? From what perspective? In what context? What was the subject under discussion when he mentioned such and what point was he trying to make and to whom?

Kisshomaru? Cited when seen fit and yet put down when seen fit also.

Now your strategy and budo sayings? No I don't know. Obviously you feel they have some significant value. Feel free to enlighten me. Maybe that's what you are connecting to the o/p.

Regards.G.

Well, you were the one who brought up the naming and called is significant, not me.

I cited Saito because he probably spent the most actual time one on one with Ueshiba after the war. He said it and Stan Pranin has shown it quite clearly - the post-war changes in Aikido came mostly from Kisshomaru and Tohei.

I didn't put Kisshomaru down at any point, I liked him quite a bit and enjoyed training with him.

The point of the quote is that it is from the 1400's - from the founder of the oldest traditional martial arts school in Japan. Ueshiba's ideas weren't new and unique, and the "old ways and meanings of budo" weren't necessarily blood guts and destruction. You've latched on to a modern representation that was pushed by many of the postwar teachers - Kisshomaru and Tohei among them, but that viewpoint is spun quite heavily, and is not supported by the historical record.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
10-22-2011, 06:24 PM
Well, you were the one who brought up the naming and called is significant, not me.

I cited Saito because he probably spent the most actual time one on one with Ueshiba after the war. He said it and Stan Pranin has shown it quite clearly - the post-war changes in Aikido came mostly from Kisshomaru and Tohei.

I didn't put Kisshomaru down at any point, I liked him quite a bit and enjoyed training with him.

The point of the quote is that it is from the 1400's - from the founder of the oldest traditional martial arts school in Japan. Ueshiba's ideas weren't new and unique, and the "old ways and meanings of budo" weren't necessarily blood guts and destruction. You've latched on to a modern representation that was pushed by many of the postwar teachers - Kisshomaru and Tohei among them, but that viewpoint is spun quite heavily, and is not supported by the historical record.

Best,

Chris

I brought up names? Really...

Oh I've latched onto have I ? Your assumption.

There you go again, using Kisshomaru as a name connected with heavily spun modern blah.

If you think you know what I've latched on to and why I view things as I do then it only means to me that you are arguing with yourself.

Do I care or know what Kisshomaru or Tohei said on the subject of budo? Do I mention them as sources to my view on budo? No. Do I need to put them down just to support an argument? No.

Budo is love. Now who said that?

Regards.G.

graham christian
10-22-2011, 06:46 PM
Considering the fact Bjorn, the OP, is a high level practitioner of the Iwama style aikido, he could explain it better to you.

Hi Demetrio.
I'd rather not ask. I don't use names to make others wrong I only use them sometimes as other sources who have said what I say now. A subtle difference. All this using what someone else said to put down what someone is saying I'll leave to those who think it means something.

I think some are more interested in argument than the thread and the funny thing is they don't know it.

I commented on the o/p.

I commented also on the next post by the o/p.

I see them as miles apart yet maybe the o/p sees them as connected and maybe Chris does too but hasn't got around to that point yet. Too busy trying to 'educate' me.

Now I could see some or even many translating the o/ps second post into war scenario and coming up with the first post. Not me though.

Anyway, I raise a glass to the mighty atom ha, ha. An incredible man.

Regards.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-22-2011, 07:25 PM
Hi Demetrio.
I'd rather not ask. I don't use names to make others wrong I only use them sometimes as other sources who have said what I say now. A subtle difference. All this using what someone else said to put down what someone is saying I'll leave to those who think it means something.

Hi Graham,

You made some questions about Saito and his statements regarding what the founder taught to him. Bjorn is someone who could help you solve said questions. That's all.

Chris Li
10-22-2011, 09:43 PM
I brought up names? Really...

Well...

In the article he states Aiki jujutsu. The difference is Ueshiba changed 'everything' after the war and developed it into what was called Aikido, a name he was completely satisfied with.

Yes, really.


Oh I've latched onto have I ? Your assumption.

True, it's my assumpution, but the "everything was changed by Ueshiba after the war" argument is pretty thin these days, in the light of recent historical evidence. That's what I'm referring to.

There you go again, using Kisshomaru as a name connected with heavily spun modern blah.

Kisshomaru absolutely spun things - that's been clearly established in the historical record. Peter Goldsbury just posted an entire essay about some of the issues.



Do I care or know what Kisshomaru or Tohei said on the subject of budo? Do I mention them as sources to my view on budo? No. Do I need to put them down just to support an argument? No.

Again, I haven't put anybody down - their role after the war is clearly documented, check the evidence. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it, but you're going to be arguing against a massive amount of published work by Stan Pranin and others.

I don't think there's anything wrong in recognizing their acts as they were - they were both giants in the spread of Aikido, why should the truth be seen as putting them down?


Budo is love. Now who said that?

Regards.G.

The same guy who said:

敵人の走り来りて打つときは一足よけてすぐに切るべし

"When the enemy comes running forward to strike you must take one step out of the way and cut them down."

Western thinking tends to have one exclude the other. Japanese thinking tends to be less absolute - more on a case by case basis. One of my first instructors got in a fight with some folks from another dojo - after a long lecture on love by Ueshiba the founder came up to him and said "well, how many did you get?". Another direct student (one of the closest) used to rumble regularly in town - with the founder's full knowledge. We don't even have to get started on Arikawa...

Ueshiba was an amazing man all on his own - no need to look at him through rose-colored glasses.

Best,

Chris

Michael Varin
10-23-2011, 12:16 AM
"You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war… an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word ‘aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called ‘aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki."
-- Minoru Mochizuki

Hello Chris,

Interesting that you chose to use this quote, as I have always found it particularly inconvenient for those proposing that aiki = IP. And it is a rather clear statement.

I find that it points to aiki as being a principle of relating or interacting, in which one perceives and then responds to the other's intent and then commitment to act, which by necessity precede the act itself. Doing so allows one to still follow the opponent, so as to be appropriate, and yet does not require waiting for the physical act before responding, so as to avoid being late. It further suggests a neutral state from which you can perceive what is actually happening, not your ideas about what is happening.

The "IP/IT/IS" paradigm as discussed here on AikiWeb would seem to have very little to do with the use of or defending against guns, and even less to do with artillery.

Of course, it is possible that Mochizuki (and/or the translator) was unable to understand do to a lack of background information. But then how would you reconcile that with:

Ueshiba did think enough of Mochizuki that he wanted to adopt him into the family and make him his successor. In 1951 he taught Aikido in Europe with Ueshiba's blessing. His 10th dan was specifically approved by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in 1979.

Chris Li
10-23-2011, 12:45 AM
Hello Chris,

Interesting that you chose to use this quote, as I have always found it particularly inconvenient for those proposing that aiki = IP. And it is a rather clear statement.

I find that it points to aiki as being a principle of relating or interacting, in which one perceives and then responds to the other's intent and then commitment to act, which by necessity precede the act itself. Doing so allows one to still follow the opponent, so as to be appropriate, and yet does not require waiting for the physical act before responding, so as to avoid being late. It further suggests a neutral state from which you can perceive what is actually happening, not your ideas about what is happening.

The "IP/IT/IS" paradigm as discussed here on AikiWeb would seem to have very little to do with the use of or defending against guns, and even less to do with artillery.

Of course, it is possible that Mochizuki (and/or the translator) was unable to understand do to a lack of background information. But then how would you reconcile that with:

Personally, I don't see any particular conflict - it says that through Aiki the mental state of the enemy can be divined. Not that the interaction itself is Aiki. It seems exactly right - Aiki is a particular kind of personal training and conditioning that allows you to do "stuff". :)

Best,

Chris

Michael Varin
10-23-2011, 01:10 AM
Personally, I don't see any particular conflict - it says that through Aiki the mental state of the enemy can be divined. Not that the interaction itself is Aiki. It seems exactly right - Aiki is a particular kind of personal training and conditioning that allows you to do "stuff". :)

Well . . .

On that level, I suppose I don't either. :)

graham christian
10-23-2011, 02:48 AM
Hi Graham,

You made some questions about Saito and his statements regarding what the founder taught to him. Bjorn is someone who could help you solve said questions. That's all.

Hi Demetrio.
I bet he could no doubt. However I was just pointing out to Chris that without all the data to do with the time and place and context then just using a 'he said' to me means nothing.

I'm more interested in what a person believes and can do above their knowledge of history. What's your view now, that's how people generally communicate in life unless they are specifically talking history.

That's all. If someone wants to fill me in on some history then that's good too in it's own way.

Regards.G.

Carsten Mllering
10-23-2011, 02:58 AM
The difference is Ueshiba changed 'everything' after the war
...
Thank you for answering my question.

I don't see this global cange when looking at what we can know about the history of aikido.
And I don't "experience" it when practicing with my teacher who has practiced with the late Sugino Yoshio (besides other teachers).
So I don't agree with your statement. Be it sitting over my books or be it practicing on the tatami.

I myself think that the assumption of a global change after WWII just makes it easier for us, to - seemingly! - understand what Ueshiba thaught and did.

Chris Li
10-23-2011, 03:13 AM
Hi Demetrio.
I bet he could no doubt. However I was just pointing out to Chris that without all the data to do with the time and place and context then just using a 'he said' to me means nothing.

I'm more interested in what a person believes and can do above their knowledge of history. What's your view now, that's how people generally communicate in life unless they are specifically talking history.

That's all. If someone wants to fill me in on some history then that's good too in it's own way.

Regards.G.

Well, OK, Saito used to carry around a copy of the 1938 manual "Budo" when he was teaching to show people that the way he was teaching it was precisely the same as it was in the 1938 manual. He said that this was the way that he was taught by the founder in Iwama, and that the way that they were doing it in Tokyo was different. It's all on record in various places - an old story, and not under dispute by just about anybody I know of.

Take a look at http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/04/22/the-book-that-vindicated-morihiro-saito-by-stanley-pranin/

And at http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34 (from 1996!)

But I heard Saito make the statement from his own mouth more than once - and I wasn't even around him all that much.

That doesn't mean, by the way, that I'm saying that what Saito was doing was better (or worse) than what was happening in other places. Just that there's more to the story.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
10-23-2011, 03:29 AM
Well...

Yes, really.

True, it's my assumpution, but the "everything was changed by Ueshiba after the war" argument is pretty thin these days, in the light of recent historical evidence. That's what I'm referring to.

Kisshomaru absolutely spun things - that's been clearly established in the historical record. Peter Goldsbury just posted an entire essay about some of the issues.

Again, I haven't put anybody down - their role after the war is clearly documented, check the evidence. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it, but you're going to be arguing against a massive amount of published work by Stan Pranin and others.

I don't think there's anything wrong in recognizing their acts as they were - they were both giants in the spread of Aikido, why should the truth be seen as putting them down?

The same guy who said:

敵人の走り来りて"つときは一足よけてすぐに切るべし

"When the enemy comes running forward to strike you must take one step out of the way and cut them down."

Western thinking tends to have one exclude the other. Japanese thinking tends to be less absolute - more on a case by case basis. One of my first instructors got in a fight with some folks from another dojo - after a long lecture on love by Ueshiba the founder came up to him and said "well, how many did you get?". Another direct student (one of the closest) used to rumble regularly in town - with the founder's full knowledge. We don't even have to get started on Arikawa...

Ueshiba was an amazing man all on his own - no need to look at him through rose-colored glasses.

Best,

Chris

Ha, ha. I was looking up your quote, yours not mine. You mention therefore four different names not me . I mention but one, Ueshiba. in response I might add.

As I said, putting down people. The word 'spin' for example. The belief put out that mistranslations are rampant and because of some devious plot. More put down which to me is more misunderstanding on the part of those with hidden agendas themselves or just inherent suspicions overriding wisdom.

Dare I challenge such historians? Yes indeed I dare.

It's not the facts I challenge it's some conclusions and the use of some facts just to fit in with their current view. (usually done by others, not the historians) But having said that a historian should refrain from any conclusion really and remain neutral in my opinion. Of course he or she may then have an opinion but that opinion is of no more worth than anyone elses.

You use examples once again of your teacher after lecture on love and the founder having full knowledge of someone who got into rucks. Why?

Western thinking is another term you use. I suggest you investigate that further. Eastern thinking I would say in those areas concerned were very spiritual as is the history of Aikido in it's essence tracing back through the yamabushi, sohei etc. to chinese monks and that's not even mentioning the hidden role of Korea.

Until the spiritual history is done and understood then how can you understand budo is love?

Becoming enlightened in life and spiritual and religeous matters was not so unusual in the east and that is the crux of what the so called western mind has a hard time understanding.

By the way rose tinted glasses is yet another meaningless statement created by ego to keep people negative I would say. To see the good is a high ability in truth. But that of course takes love.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
10-23-2011, 03:33 AM
Thank you for answering my question.

I don't see this global cange when looking at what we can know about the history of aikido.
And I don't "experience" it when practicing with my teacher who has practiced with the late Sugino Yoshio (besides other teachers).
So I don't agree with your statement. Be it sitting over my books or be it practicing on the tatami.

I myself think that the assumption of a global change after WWII just makes it easier for us, to - seemingly! - understand what Ueshiba thaught and did.

Also, part of the very deliberate post-war effort to separate Aikido from it's militaristic roots (for obvious reasons).

It was also a great sales point to distinguish Aikido from the other arts in post-war Japan.

Even pre-war, Judo and Karate made similar efforts - but Ueshiba and the Aikikai seem to have been the most successful at branding.

I'm not being cynical, I think that he believed in what he was doing - but it wasn't (quite) unique.

Judo under Kano: JITA-KYOEI (Perfection of One's Self and Mutual Welfare and Benefit)

Karate under Funakoshi: Never forget that karate begins and ends with respect. There is no first attack in karate. Karate fosters righteousness.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu: Winning without fighting - "Strategies for war become strategies for peace", circa early 1400's.

And others...I think that the pre-war/post-war knife edge dichotomy is way too simplistic.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
10-23-2011, 03:35 AM
Ha, ha. I was looking up your quote, yours not mine. You mention therefore four different names not me . I mention but one, Ueshiba. in response I might add.

As I said, putting down people. The word 'spin' for example. The belief put out that mistranslations are rampant and because of some devious plot. More put down which to me is more misunderstanding on the part of those with hidden agendas themselves or just inherent suspicions overriding wisdom.

Dare I challenge such historians? Yes indeed I dare.

It's not the facts I challenge it's some conclusions and the use of some facts just to fit in with their current view. (usually done by others, not the historians) But having said that a historian should refrain from any conclusion really and remain neutral in my opinion. Of course he or she may then have an opinion but that opinion is of no more worth than anyone elses.

You use examples once again of your teacher after lecture on love and the founder having full knowledge of someone who got into rucks. Why?

Western thinking is another term you use. I suggest you investigate that further. Eastern thinking I would say in those areas concerned were very spiritual as is the history of Aikido in it's essence tracing back through the yamabushi, sohei etc. to chinese monks and that's not even mentioning the hidden role of Korea.

Until the spiritual history is done and understood then how can you understand budo is love?

Becoming enlightened in life and spiritual and religeous matters was not so unusual in the east and that is the crux of what the so called western mind has a hard time understanding.

By the way rose tinted glasses is yet another meaningless statement created by ego to keep people negative I would say. To see the good is a high ability in truth. But that of course takes love.

Regards.G.

:D OK, whatever you say...

Best,

Chris

graham christian
10-23-2011, 03:40 AM
Thank you for answering my question.

I don't see this global cange when looking at what we can know about the history of aikido.
And I don't "experience" it when practicing with my teacher who has practiced with the late Sugino Yoshio (besides other teachers).
So I don't agree with your statement. Be it sitting over my books or be it practicing on the tatami.

I myself think that the assumption of a global change after WWII just makes it easier for us, to - seemingly! - understand what Ueshiba thaught and did.

Thank you too for responding in clear way.

Herein lies the core of the differences of opinion within Aikido. Herein in my opinion lies the reason that Aikido potentially is different to other martial arts. Herein lies the difference between Ueshibas personal ability and others.

Not trying to convince you but merely stating where I come from.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-23-2011, 04:06 AM
By the way rose tinted glasses is yet another meaningless statement created by ego to keep people negative I would say.


Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, too. Saying it's "meaningless" seems just as potentially ego-driven to me. It's a valid point to make that people often look to great men and affix more of a personal/subjective truth to the objective reality. From what I can see of the "harmony" (heiwa) interpretation of Aikido, it's a fair reminder to make from time to time. I'm an idealist at heart, so I often need such reminders. Of course we ought not easily forsake the ideals for the facility of pragmatism, but sometimes we must start at the bottom of the proverbial mountain, away from the bedrock of those lofty positions. I think O Sensei recognized this kind of baseline of reality and it was from this realization that his ideals of reconciling the world took their deepest meaning. Sometimes people have to kill...it's just less often than many might think, unfortunately.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
10-23-2011, 04:22 AM
Before invading another country we send our spies in. They infiltrate the nerve centers without being noticed. At the time of full scale attack they cut the supply lines and destroy the electrical power stations. Caught off-guard the enemy rush to their battle stations only to be picked off one after one. Without their essential power supply they loose all their counter force and are easily overrun. Without any delay we occupy the main crossroads and key locations, hold the high ground and send our spies even further ahead, to infiltrate the very heart of resistance. Without firing even one shot we flood the enemy land with our own forces, occupying it to squeeze out any remaining opposition. In one well planned and well executed strike we manage to neutralize and overtake our opponent without much loss on either side.

I'm guessing this isn't a prescription for war so much as a metaphor for how we might project our ki/intent into our would-be attackers, maximizing utility?

Gorgeous George
10-23-2011, 09:04 AM
:D OK, whatever you say...

Best,

Chris

Chris: thank you for your impartial, reasoned, intelligent, and knowledgeable posts; many of those reading have surely been greatly informed by them.
I think, however, you are trying to reason with a bigot: a man whose interest is not in facts - only in the false reality he has constructed for himself.
For a man lacking ego, he comes across as very egotistical.

graham christian
10-23-2011, 10:09 AM
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, too. Saying it's "meaningless" seems just as potentially ego-driven to me. It's a valid point to make that people often look to great men and affix more of a personal/subjective truth to the objective reality. From what I can see of the "harmony" (heiwa) interpretation of Aikido, it's a fair reminder to make from time to time. I'm an idealist at heart, so I often need such reminders. Of course we ought not easily forsake the ideals for the facility of pragmatism, but sometimes we must start at the bottom of the proverbial mountain, away from the bedrock of those lofty positions. I think O Sensei recognized this kind of baseline of reality and it was from this realization that his ideals of reconciling the world took their deepest meaning. Sometimes people have to kill...it's just less often than many might think, unfortunately.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt

True definition of rose tinted glasses. Unfortunately used in the accusative for point scoring is merely a worthless statement. As I said seeing the good is an ability and real.

I know people who start at the bottom of the proverbial mountain yet recognise the the ideals as real and worth striving for.

Regards.G.

graham christian
10-23-2011, 10:17 AM
Chris: thank you for your impartial, reasoned, intelligent, and knowledgeable posts; many of those reading have surely been greatly informed by them.
I think, however, you are trying to reason with a bigot: a man whose interest is not in facts - only in the false reality he has constructed for himself.
For a man lacking ego, he comes across as very egotistical.

Obviously you don't agree with budo is love.

Regards.G.

Gorgeous George
10-23-2011, 10:35 AM
Obviously you don't agree with budo is love.

Regards.G.

How is that obvious?

I don't agree with your refusal to allow facts to interfere with your conclusions.

Your very claim that 'Budo is love.' is open to all kinds of objections: 'What is love?'; 'How do you express love?'; etc.

graham christian
10-23-2011, 10:57 AM
How is that obvious?

I don't agree with your refusal to allow facts to interfere with your conclusions.

Your very claim that 'Budo is love.' is open to all kinds of objections: 'What is love?'; 'How do you express love?'; etc.

Why should I allow facts to interfere with my conclusions when I point out how incomplete they are?

You can disagree by all means as is your right but name calliing?

Budo is love. Yes, you merely point to what I've said all along. The problem isn't japanese translations but not knowing the meaning or having reality on the english words like love.

Without such reality people have to believe Ueshiba meant a, b, c, d. No, he meant budo is love. When you understand that clearly you can understand better Aikido. To me it's self evident.

I can demonstrate and teach such. No problem. If that's a problem to you or any others who don't have that particular reality then what can I say? It's an immovable truth for me. Quite demonstratable.

If you don't know or even believe in such then carry on and talk about what you do.

Regards.G.

Gorgeous George
10-23-2011, 11:24 AM
Why should I allow facts to interfere with my conclusions when I point out how incomplete they are?

You can disagree by all means as is your right but name calliing?

Budo is love. Yes, you merely point to what I've said all along. The problem isn't japanese translations but not knowing the meaning or having reality on the english words like love.

Without such reality people have to believe Ueshiba meant a, b, c, d. No, he meant budo is love. When you understand that clearly you can understand better Aikido. To me it's self evident.

I can demonstrate and teach such. No problem. If that's a problem to you or any others who don't have that particular reality then what can I say? It's an immovable truth for me. Quite demonstratable.

If you don't know or even believe in such then carry on and talk about what you do.

Regards.G.

Name-calling? To what are you referring?

The point these good people have been making to you, is that you don't know very much - at all - about Ueshiba, his thoughts on aikido, or those other figures - who were actually there.

So you prattle on about 'What aikido is.', and 'What Ueshiba meant.' - but as a rational observer, and as a historian, I see everything you say as entirely worthless; it wouldn't even be entertained as a source, if historians, in the future, looked at this thread.

Do you honestly think that if someone like Ueshiba, or Saito, or Shioda, saw your aikido, they'd be impressed?
Fair enough: you like one perspective on the 'spiritual' side of aikido - but to express it through aikido, you have to...be able to express it through aikido, something you seem unable to do.

You might think you understand aiki with your mind, but do you understand it with your body? - that's a big reason why I feel aggrieved at how you act: because there are people out there with vastly superior ability at aikido, who actually say they barely understand it - hell: i've got a book written by Gozo Shioda in the eighties, I believe, where he actually says that he is only just beginning to understand some of the things Ueshiba talked about in the thirties...but you have all the answers?!
Seishiro Endo - 8th dan, and someone whose ability I massively admire - says that he is still trying to become soft, to become good...but you have all the answers? You know everything?

I don't believe you can demonstrate aikido, no - for I am a student of this grandmaster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

He has massive ki balls.

graham christian
10-23-2011, 01:25 PM
Name-calling? To what are you referring?

The point these good people have been making to you, is that you don't know very much - at all - about Ueshiba, his thoughts on aikido, or those other figures - who were actually there.

So you prattle on about 'What aikido is.', and 'What Ueshiba meant.' - but as a rational observer, and as a historian, I see everything you say as entirely worthless; it wouldn't even be entertained as a source, if historians, in the future, looked at this thread.

Do you honestly think that if someone like Ueshiba, or Saito, or Shioda, saw your aikido, they'd be impressed?
Fair enough: you like one perspective on the 'spiritual' side of aikido - but to express it through aikido, you have to...be able to express it through aikido, something you seem unable to do.

You might think you understand aiki with your mind, but do you understand it with your body? - that's a big reason why I feel aggrieved at how you act: because there are people out there with vastly superior ability at aikido, who actually say they barely understand it - hell: i've got a book written by Gozo Shioda in the eighties, I believe, where he actually says that he is only just beginning to understand some of the things Ueshiba talked about in the thirties...but you have all the answers?!
Seishiro Endo - 8th dan, and someone whose ability I massively admire - says that he is still trying to become soft, to become good...but you have all the answers? You know everything?

I don't believe you can demonstrate aikido, no - for I am a student of this grandmaster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

He has massive ki balls.

Ha, ha. He has something, maybe you think that's Ki.

If that's the point these good people are making then they are sadly mistaken. I think I read once that Ueshiba told some omoto students in answer to their questioning him about what that Aikido that he does was about. He said he thought they knew more Aikido than his students.

I never mentioned aiki so don't even go there.

I met Shioda and wasn't impressed. I met Kanetsuka and was impressed. We all have ones we like more than others. Nothing new there.

Yeah, your view on my Aikido may be shared by many but those with that view cannot do what I do. That may sound arrogant to you but it isn't is just as it is. Why should that annoy you?

You don't believe it. That about sums it up.

Senshiro Endo says such things then I'm sure I could help him out there, now how's that for 'arrogance' or is it confidence.

I am not a label, I am me and I can do what I say I can. Until you understand that then you can only place me in categories to fit your own mind.

Labels and titles don't mean to me what they do to you.

Regards.G.

Gorgeous George
10-23-2011, 02:38 PM
Ha, ha. He has something, maybe you think that's Ki.

If that's the point these good people are making then they are sadly mistaken. I think I read once that Ueshiba told some omoto students in answer to their questioning him about what that Aikido that he does was about. He said he thought they knew more Aikido than his students.

I never mentioned aiki so don't even go there.

I met Shioda and wasn't impressed. I met Kanetsuka and was impressed. We all have ones we like more than others. Nothing new there.

Yeah, your view on my Aikido may be shared by many but those with that view cannot do what I do. That may sound arrogant to you but it isn't is just as it is. Why should that annoy you?

You don't believe it. That about sums it up.

Senshiro Endo says such things then I'm sure I could help him out there, now how's that for 'arrogance' or is it confidence.

I am not a label, I am me and I can do what I say I can. Until you understand that then you can only place me in categories to fit your own mind.

Labels and titles don't mean to me what they do to you.

Regards.G.

...is anyone actually in agreement with this guy?
Why is his absurd trolling tolerated, when Tony Wagstaffe's wasn't?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-23-2011, 02:43 PM
...is anyone actually in agreement with this guy?
I bet more people than you expect.

Why is his absurd trolling tolerated, when Tony Wagstaffe's wasn't?
Manners.

Gorgeous George
10-23-2011, 02:51 PM
I bet more people than you expect.

Manners.

You're probably right.
I'm all for aikido as a form of misogi; a 'spiritual' practice; and as a budo - even more so, now that I train BJJ, do I see its restorative, energising benefits.

However, when people claim to be good at aikido, yet their ukes never challenge them, they're not speaking the truth.
Even if you just do aikido as a meditative thing, and have no illusions about martial ability, if you aren't actually taking someone's balance, through the use of aiki, then you aren't doing aikido: you're living in a fantasy world, wasting your time, and not getting the benefits you seek, or speak of.

Regards manners: Tony wasn't that discourteous...was he?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-23-2011, 03:06 PM
Regards manners: Tony wasn't that discourteous...was he?

British working class vs American burgueoises... clash of cultures. He lost.

Janet Rosen
10-23-2011, 03:50 PM
...is anyone actually in agreement with this guy?
Why is his absurd trolling tolerated, when Tony Wagstaffe's wasn't?

Partly manners as noted and I think many of us have just given up on having productive arguementd because of how the ground shifts so just don't engage anymore.

Janet Rosen
10-23-2011, 03:52 PM
Re the OP - like Matthew I read it as a macro version if you will of the concept of ki(or intent) leads mind, mind leads body ... tho it would be nice for OP to return to the thread and engage or comment a bit!

Gorgeous George
10-23-2011, 04:07 PM
Partly manners as noted and I think many of us have just given up on having productive arguementd because of how the ground shifts so just don't engage anymore.

I'm glad it's not just me...

I might actually have to use the ignore feature, for the first time.

graham christian
10-23-2011, 05:04 PM
You're probably right.
I'm all for aikido as a form of misogi; a 'spiritual' practice; and as a budo - even more so, now that I train BJJ, do I see its restorative, energising benefits.

However, when people claim to be good at aikido, yet their ukes never challenge them, they're not speaking the truth.
Even if you just do aikido as a meditative thing, and have no illusions about martial ability, if you aren't actually taking someone's balance, through the use of aiki, then you aren't doing aikido: you're living in a fantasy world, wasting your time, and not getting the benefits you seek, or speak of.

Regards manners: Tony wasn't that discourteous...was he?

This sounds discourteous to me.

As I said. You don't believe. That's all. Oh and don't feel alone, nor do some others.

Regards.G.

Gorgeous George
10-23-2011, 07:15 PM
This sounds discourteous to me.

As I said. You don't believe. That's all. Oh and don't feel alone, nor do some others.

Regards.G.

...that's neither here nor there, O Great Sage.

It's not a matter of belief: it's a matter of justifying your position.
Racists can't justify their position, so they are disregarded; creationists cannot justify their position, so they are disregarded; you can't justify your position...

If Ueshiba had just gone around...talking, then aikido would have died on its arse; instead, he put his money where his mouth was, proved himself - and what luck: you've heard of aikido.

And if you're such a nice, peaceful, enlightened guy, then why are you content to be an annoyance?
Aren't you just posting in order to puff yourself up?

Anthony Loeppert
10-23-2011, 08:37 PM
I met Shioda and wasn't impressed.
...
Yeah, your view on my Aikido may be shared by many but those with that view cannot do what I do.
That may sound arrogant to you but it isn't is just as it is.


Arrogant yes. But by focusing too much on that aspect you ignore the incoherence of your message which is also worthy of mention.

Regards,
Anthony

graham christian
10-23-2011, 08:49 PM
...that's neither here nor there, O Great Sage.

It's not a matter of belief: it's a matter of justifying your position.
Racists can't justify their position, so they are disregarded; creationists cannot justify their position, so they are disregarded; you can't justify your position...

If Ueshiba had just gone around...talking, then aikido would have died on its arse; instead, he put his money where his mouth was, proved himself - and what luck: you've heard of aikido.

And if you're such a nice, peaceful, enlightened guy, then why are you content to be an annoyance?
Aren't you just posting in order to puff yourself up?

I could debate what you say there but you may not like it. Thus see me as an annoyance? For instance Ueshiba did plenty plenty talking but as recorded those students didn't understand what he was on about. Now I talk as this is a forum for so doing and what luck, you've heard of my Aikido. Now, does that annoy you?

You will find my basic position has not changed since I entered the forum so consistency is there, explanations and backing philosophy are there. I do indeed justify my 'position' so those annoyed are merely against what I say. Maybe nice peaceful guys shouldn't say their opinion for fear of others being annoyed.

Your final question about posting to puff myself up. Now that's more interesting. That's actually close to something. As they say in the game of hide and seek 'you're getting warmer'.

Let's take Dan shall we. (I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning his name here) He is one for putting himself foreward and the merits of what he does. Blatantly at times and kind of no holds barred. That's him and there's nothing wrong with that at all. I on the other hand am a different charachter, not one for doing so.

However, on this forum I found if I did it was met by a great reaction. Strange I thought. I showed it to all my friends and those who know me. They laughed. Apart from every one of them saying it's because they don't understand, more importantly for me was they said they always wonder why I don't put it out there more. These are people from within and without of Aikido who know me and that means have personal experience of my Aikido or have even seen it in action for real outside of the dojo.

So as I said you're getting warm. On this forum I put it foreward, I put it out there, partly as an experiment. An experiment to see who has similar realities in Aikido and an experiment to see how I like personally putting it foreward. I learn a lot by doing so.

Most surprisingly I learn that some think their view about my way is superior somehow to mine. They don't know me so they don't see the the simple fact that I know me. Too simple. For me it's rather amazing.

But now I am getting to understand. The truth of the matter is those few, or many, who cares, don't understand. There's no other word to use I'm afraid. You believe that my Aikido is weak and and good for self developement with no martial application. You believe that. I compare your belief to what I know. Therefore I can say you are wrong. Therefore I can say you don't understand my Aikido.

I can say the Aiki discussed recently I understand a little but the ins and outs and methods of practice people are enthusing about I can say I don't understand. I do understand more than those who rear up think though. But compared to those who teach it nah, no comparison. It's not hard to say what I do and don't understand and degrees thereof.

Does that mean I haven't come across people who do forms of internal power and internal strength? No. Have I felt it from them? Yes. Have I seen benefits of it for them? Yes. Am I against it? No.

That's their cup of tea.

Bottom line, I don't fit your parameters of someone who can do what I can do therefore I can't be real.

Do you even understand if I say to you that what I can do isn't even that important to me?

I may be wrong but I can only conclude that those who continually want to pick up and argue and try to make wrong anything I say do not want to understand. I can say this because those that do usually end up contacting via pm.

Anyway if I wind you up by giving my opinion the don't talk to me, it's quite simple.

Regards.G.

graham christian
10-23-2011, 09:08 PM
Arrogant yes. But by focusing too much on that aspect you ignore the incoherence of your message which is also worthy of mention.

Regards,
Anthony

Anthony. Have you ever met a senior Aikidoka you were not impressed by? I bet everyone has if they are honest. I have met many people let alone Aikido people who must therefore in their field know much more than me and guess what? Some I wasn't impressed with.

The incoherence you do indeed mention. Is that down to me?

On I/P threads they can seem at times very incoherent to me but it's not really down to the people writing them it's more to do with me not understanding the words used. I have therefore a choice. I can ask for clarification or accept I need to study more about it before I can join in. Or I can see the gist of it and decide if I'm actually interested. The emphasis is on me not the writer. I'm sure they are explaining as best they can.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
10-23-2011, 09:15 PM
Is it possible for this thread to get back on topic ?

mathewjgano
10-23-2011, 09:19 PM
Is it possible for this thread to get back on topic ?

Word. Horse to water and all that.

torbjornsaw
10-23-2011, 11:11 PM
Pirates! Don't hijack the thread please. What a brawl over nothing :rolleyes:

mathewjgano
10-23-2011, 11:57 PM
Pirates! Don't hijack the thread please. What a brawl over nothing :rolleyes:

Argh, matey! Avast ye! It be this talk of warfare methinks! It be like grog in the gullet; it warms the temper me hearty!

lbb
10-24-2011, 07:55 AM
Well, what WAS the topic? It started with something that may have been an allegory, or a metaphor, or a parable, or it may have been intended as a literal description, I have no idea. What is there to respond to? What was the point?

grondahl
10-24-2011, 08:24 AM
Is there any kind of warfare that is "untrue" or is it a matter of degrees? And how does this relate to aikido?

phitruong
10-24-2011, 09:47 AM
Is it possible for this thread to get back on topic ?

what was the topic again? true warfare? no such thing. "all warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
deception cannot be truth; thus, there cannot be true warfare, but only deceptive warfare. of course, there is truth in deception which makes deception truth. ooohhhh crapppp, my head! ohhhh my head! it's spinning! need more drinking to stop the spinning! :D

Mark Freeman
10-24-2011, 09:50 AM
what was the topic again? true warfare? no such thing. "all warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
deception cannot be truth; thus, there cannot be true warfare, but only deceptive warfare. of course, there is truth in deception which makes deception truth. ooohhhh crapppp, my head! ohhhh my head! it's spinning! need more drinking to stop the spinning! :D

Ah, nice to see a man at war with himself;)

Mark Freeman
10-24-2011, 09:54 AM
Pirates! Don't hijack the thread please. What a brawl over nothing :rolleyes:

If you toss a smoldering cigarette butt into a flammable liquid??

What was the intent of your opening post? to promote thought? to educate? to stimulate?

Not sure I got link between the title and the passage,

regards,

Mark

torbjornsaw
10-24-2011, 10:19 AM
I'm guessing this isn't a prescription for war so much as a metaphor for how we might project our ki/intent into our would-be attackers, maximizing utility?

Yes it is Matthew, and it is meant to stimulate thought. How do we touch our opponent? How do we enter inside? What is interior martial arts as opposed to exterior? This is my own exploration in daily practice. What I describe is what I try to convey to my students in the dojo. A very good start to this sensitivity training can be experienced through seated ryote-dori kokyu-ho. As uke grabs you can you enter inside his grip without violating his grip, without wrenching but rather accommodating his firm grasp? How can this only be achieved non-violently? Why then is peace and stillness a prerequisite for ability? Why is a firm foundation in kihon, basics so important for this to be available to you? How do we progress.

Is anyone curious to find out if they do not initially understand the metaphor? It is a true statement, not mere fantasy. When you discover in training this connection you will never have it in another way. Like water, you flow into the opponent the moment you engage. Are you willing to explore the possibility?

torbjornsaw
10-24-2011, 10:24 AM
Before openly engaging in a sensitive and non-violent physical response to an aggressive attack we penetrate and pervade him with loving kindness long before him knowing about it. We enter his soul through a spiritual insight revealing his ego strongholds. With this preemptive attitude we disarm his ability to launch effectively and we neutralize his intention to attack and channel his aggression back onto himself. Overwhelming him with a feeling of peace we control the situation.

So please read the opening post again after reading this. It applies mentally but can and should be trained, felt and experienced in daily practice. The mental principles applies to your physical sensitivity in relationship with uke.

gregstec
10-24-2011, 10:28 AM
Re the OP - like Matthew I read it as a macro version if you will of the concept of ki(or intent) leads mind, mind leads body ... tho it would be nice for OP to return to the thread and engage or comment a bit!

Not to pick a nit, but I have always heard it as heart leads mind, mind leads intent, intent leads ki, and ki leads body :)

Mind and intent are NOT exactly the same - Intent is a function of Mind - but for most purposes within discussions of ki, mind and intent are generally viewed as one.

Greg

torbjornsaw
10-24-2011, 10:41 AM
Knowing what you want, knowing how to proceed, is key. Learning sensitivity through ceaseless training with a skilled teacher is alone effective. Endo sensei is a master at this level. I can see it in his Aikido, but I discover it for myself in my own training. Sensitive in mind, in body and in spirit cultivates this discovery of true budo.

graham christian
10-24-2011, 11:47 AM
Thought provoking yes. I agree with the principles but the analogy of the o/p not sure. Are you saying that's what should happen in war? Plus 'invade' another country gives the question why?

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-24-2011, 03:19 PM
Thought provoking yes. I agree with the principles but the analogy of the o/p not sure. Are you saying that's what should happen in war? Plus 'invade' another country gives the question why?

Regards.G.

I think the short answer is one like, "if one had to because there was no other option." Like all hypotheticals it depends on certain presumptions that we could probably "what-if" forever. My first reaction was similar to yours, but after a little while I made the connection that spies are information gatherers, much like the nerves in the body.

graham christian
10-24-2011, 05:39 PM
I think the short answer is one like, "if one had to because there was no other option." Like all hypotheticals it depends on certain presumptions that we could probably "what-if" forever. My first reaction was similar to yours, but after a little while I made the connection that spies are information gatherers, much like the nerves in the body.

I see that connection but question it's validity. The use of spies and cutting communication and finding various points etc. to me is the way of maybe a strategist pr maybe even tsun tsu himself but hardly a demonstration in analogy of his second post.

Sounds to me more like covert operations.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-24-2011, 05:49 PM
I see that connection but question it's validity. The use of spies and cutting communication and finding various points etc. to me is the way of maybe a strategist pr maybe even tsun tsu himself but hardly a demonstration in analogy of his second post.

Sounds to me more like covert operations.

Regards.G.

Well in the sense that aiki is subtle, I think covert operations still seems like it could fit the bill. "Internal" seems to describe a covert op whereas "external" would seem to describe overt/conventional ops.

graham christian
10-24-2011, 06:03 PM
Well in the sense that aiki is subtle, I think covert operations still seems like it could fit the bill. "Internal" seems to describe a covert op whereas "external" would seem to describe overt/conventional ops.

I see that as probably the way many would see it but I don't. For me there is no covertness and deception inherent in those principles described.

This is also where we part on the subject of Aiki. (assuming the second post is as part of aiki or aikido)

Thus without argument may we agree to differ?

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-24-2011, 06:15 PM
I see that as probably the way many would see it but I don't. For me there is no covertness and deception inherent in those principles described.

This is also where we part on the subject of Aiki. (assuming the second post is as part of aiki or aikido)

Thus without argument may we agree to differ?

Regards.G.

Of course we can agree to disagree.:) I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and I think you and I tend to have a lot of similar sentiments about budo and aikido, even where we describe things differently. I'm offering my view; you're offering yours. I'll only add that where you see covert acton as perhaps necessitating deception, I see it as being essentially invisible. There might be deception involved in addition, but that would imply giving some clue in the first place which strikes me as allowing the "opponant" something to respond to (which can include the consideration of potential deception).
Take care, Graham,
Matt

graham christian
10-24-2011, 06:30 PM
Of course we can agree to disagree.:) I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and I think you and I tend to have a lot of similar sentiments about budo and aikido, even where we describe things differently. I'm offering my view; you're offering yours. I'll only add that where you see covert acton as perhaps necessitating deception, I see it as being essentially invisible. There might be deception involved in addition, but that would imply giving some clue in the first place which strikes me as allowing the "opponant" something to respond to (which can include the consideration of potential deception).
Take care, Graham,
Matt

Nice differentiation between deception and covertness. Maybe it's ninja aiki.

Rgards.G.

mathewjgano
10-24-2011, 07:30 PM
Nice differentiation between deception and covertness. Maybe it's ninja aiki.

Rgards.G.

:D Well I have been a ninja since grade school! Oops! Wasn't supposed to tell you that, now I have to use my secret memory erasing technique on you. It's not dangerous, but you may think you're a unicycle-riding viking for a day or two. It's not altogether unpleasant, actually.
Take care, sir!
Matt

Chris Evans
10-24-2011, 09:41 PM
Do anything for your people's survival: No honor in war ecept the perception of it in politics and prpaganda, mere degrees of survival, yet honor happen in the sacrifices, as seen by the community, seemingly a paradox.

torbjornsaw
10-24-2011, 10:11 PM
The fragrance of flowers invades your senses but we don't seem to mind. We wake up and it's a new dawn and we don't cry foul play. Peace is pro-active, like a fragrance can't but help to spread its nuance. There are no borders to uphold. No lines but what man has drawn. If its invades your privacy so be it. Love is a rule not an option. Therefore if you're aware of it or not, you'll have to submit and surrender. Love rules supreme and as such Aiki conquers. Under cover or in open daylight, you'll have no choice. Aiki warfare is peace in action. It's a joy to be invaded.

mathewjgano
10-24-2011, 10:27 PM
The fragrance of flowers invades your senses but we don't seem to mind. We wake up and it's a new dawn and we don't cry foul play. Peace is pro-active, like a fragrance can't but help to spread its nuance. There are no borders to uphold. No lines but what man has drawn. If its invades your privacy so be it. Love is a rule not an option. Therefore if you're aware of it or not, you'll have to submit and surrender. Love rules supreme and as such Aiki conquers. Under cover or in open daylight, you'll have no choice. Aiki warfare is peace in action. It's a joy to be invaded.

I like that!

phitruong
10-25-2011, 07:30 AM
The fragrance of flowers invades your senses but we don't seem to mind. We wake up and it's a new dawn and we don't cry foul play. ............................................................ Aiki warfare is peace in action. It's a joy to be invaded.

if i got invaded early in the morning and if you didn't brought coffee, i would call that foul play. let me make this clear, morning -> coffee or prepare for some ass kicking warfare. there should be a Geneva convention on that: there should be no invasion of any kind, in the morning, without coffee. matter of fact, both side should sit down for coffee and donut/crone or whatever, and read the funnies in the paper and exchange morning pleasantry. after such, then invasion can begin, but not before then. not to mention, invasion should stop for lunch with jokes and banter exchange that starts with "yo mama ...." and of couse, invasion should halt for dinner where both sides would exchange recipes of MRE, follow dinner with some dancing and singing, then bed down for the night to get a good rest, in order to renew our vigor, for the next day invasion. :D

MM
10-25-2011, 08:27 AM
if i got invaded early in the morning and if you didn't brought coffee, i would call that foul play. let me make this clear, morning -> coffee or prepare for some ass kicking warfare. there should be a Geneva convention on that: there should be no invasion of any kind, in the morning, without coffee. matter of fact, both side should sit down for coffee and donut/crone or whatever, and read the funnies in the paper and exchange morning pleasantry. after such, then invasion can begin, but not before then. not to mention, invasion should stop for lunch with jokes and banter exchange that starts with "yo mama ...." and of couse, invasion should halt for dinner where both sides would exchange recipes of MRE, follow dinner with some dancing and singing, then bed down for the night to get a good rest, in order to renew our vigor, for the next day invasion. :D

In World War I, during the 1914 Christmas time frame, many units on both sides stopped fighting, came together, and celebrated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

It was a time when the actions of men shone brighter than ever. Jumping to the present time, there are many people who would do similar things and call them "aikido" like. They point to doing something good, something worthwhile for their fellow man and call those actions "aikido".

If we look to Kisshomaru Ueshiba's changes in aikido, we can perhaps find some common ground to view those noted actions as "aikido". If we view them from Morihei Ueshiba's aikido, we can find no common ground. at all. There is no aiki, there is no aikido.

Those actions are religious or spiritual and in some manner founded by love. These actions are to be upheld and encouraged. From the changes Kisshomaru made, these actions can be viewed as ai(love) ki. Modern Aikido appealed to the masses because of these changes.

But make no mistake, these actions are not Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. No aiki, no aikido. No matter how much ai(love) ki you have, you will never have Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. You will have Modern Aikido, which is not something to be dismissed lightly, mind you. But that is not the same as the founder's aikido.

graham christian
10-25-2011, 09:33 AM
The fragrance of flowers invades your senses but we don't seem to mind. We wake up and it's a new dawn and we don't cry foul play. Peace is pro-active, like a fragrance can't but help to spread its nuance. There are no borders to uphold. No lines but what man has drawn. If its invades your privacy so be it. Love is a rule not an option. Therefore if you're aware of it or not, you'll have to submit and surrender. Love rules supreme and as such Aiki conquers. Under cover or in open daylight, you'll have no choice. Aiki warfare is peace in action. It's a joy to be invaded.

Nice poetry. The word invade, given poetic license, all good. Outside of poetry I would use another word does doesn't imply force or violation. It's a joy to share this piece.

Regards.G.

graham christian
10-25-2011, 09:36 AM
In World War I, during the 1914 Christmas time frame, many units on both sides stopped fighting, came together, and celebrated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

It was a time when the actions of men shone brighter than ever. Jumping to the present time, there are many people who would do similar things and call them "aikido" like. They point to doing something good, something worthwhile for their fellow man and call those actions "aikido".

If we look to Kisshomaru Ueshiba's changes in aikido, we can perhaps find some common ground to view those noted actions as "aikido". If we view them from Morihei Ueshiba's aikido, we can find no common ground. at all. There is no aiki, there is no aikido.

Those actions are religious or spiritual and in some manner founded by love. These actions are to be upheld and encouraged. From the changes Kisshomaru made, these actions can be viewed as ai(love) ki. Modern Aikido appealed to the masses because of these changes.

But make no mistake, these actions are not Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. No aiki, no aikido. No matter how much ai(love) ki you have, you will never have Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. You will have Modern Aikido, which is not something to be dismissed lightly, mind you. But that is not the same as the founder's aikido.

And maybe if you have his 'aiki' and don't have his ai ki then you will never have his Aikido.

Regards.G.

MM
10-25-2011, 09:54 AM
And maybe if you have his 'aiki' and don't have his ai ki then you will never have his Aikido.

Regards.G.

No. That idea is incorrect. Morihei Ueshiba told his students that they did not have to follow in his exact spiritual foot steps but could find their own religious/spiritual way. His aiki completed religion. So, if you have his aiki, then you could have whatever religious/spiritual path you wanted and you would be doing his idea of aikido. But, you had to have both. Without aiki, no aikido, no matter how much ai (love) ki you had, no matter how much spirituality you had, no matter how religious you were. If you didn't understand in/yo, you would not be doing Morihei Ueshiba's aikido.

Mark Freeman
10-25-2011, 10:18 AM
In World War I, during the 1914 Christmas time frame, many units on both sides stopped fighting, came together, and celebrated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

It was a time when the actions of men shone brighter than ever. Jumping to the present time, there are many people who would do similar things and call them "aikido" like. They point to doing something good, something worthwhile for their fellow man and call those actions "aikido".



Hi Mark,

It was a time when the actions of 'some' men shone brighter than ever. The Allied and German soldiers that exchanged gifts, song, cigarettes and haircuts, for a short while, fully embraced their common humanity. It was soon put a stop to by the Generals on all sides. They didn't want that sort of behaviour to break out and spoil their 'well planned' (sic) conflict. It just doesn't do to have your cannon fodder thinking of the enemy as somehow the same as you, does it? What followed was almost 4 more years of the most appalling warfare that we have ever known. The Generals won and humanity lost.

I agree that some stretch the 'aikido' description of actions that are deemed to be 'good'. Just because something is good or right, doesn't make it aikido.

Whether you see aikido as ai-ki-do or aiki-do, and I don't see why they can't be held in the same palm. One may house a skill that the other lacks, the other may contain a philosophy that reaches more and is ultimately more beneficial to more people, and therefore to humanity in general.

Just some thoughts,

regards,

Mark

Marc Abrams
10-25-2011, 10:45 AM
Hi Mark,

It was a time when the actions of 'some' men shone brighter than ever. The Allied and German soldiers that exchanged gifts, song, cigarettes and haircuts, for a short while, fully embraced their common humanity. It was soon put a stop to by the Generals on all sides. They didn't want that sort of behaviour to break out and spoil their 'well planned' (sic) conflict. It just doesn't do to have your cannon fodder thinking of the enemy as somehow the same as you, does it? What followed was almost 4 more years of the most appalling warfare that we have ever known. The Generals won and humanity lost.

I agree that some stretch the 'aikido' description of actions that are deemed to be 'good'. Just because something is good or right, doesn't make it aikido.

Whether you see aikido as ai-ki-do or aiki-do, and I don't see why they can't be held in the same palm. One may house a skill that the other lacks, the other may contain a philosophy that reaches more and is ultimately more beneficial to more people, and therefore to humanity in general.

Just some thoughts,

regards,

Mark

Mark:

I would say that the combination of both of those positions would be the ultimate achievement. Aikido is a martial art. It is the "gift" of aiki that can allow us to sustain that philosophy when attacked. Gold-leafed clowns who wax poetic about pretty philosophies, yet do not have the skills to remain alive to wax poetic when attacked just end up in Uncle Darwin's playground. The Aiki that O'Sensei represented enabled him to be able to wax poetic about what ever he wanted to while remaining safe.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Mark Freeman
10-25-2011, 11:08 AM
Mark:

I would say that the combination of both of those positions would be the ultimate achievement. Aikido is a martial art. It is the "gift" of aiki that can allow us to sustain that philosophy when attacked. Gold-leafed clowns who wax poetic about pretty philosophies, yet do not have the skills to remain alive to wax poetic when attacked just end up in Uncle Darwin's playground. The Aiki that O'Sensei represented enabled him to be able to wax poetic about what ever he wanted to while remaining safe.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,

clowns and evolutionary male relatives aside, I agree with your position.

The vast majority of aikidoka worldwide, however, do not have Ueshiba's aiki, some are working towards it the best they can, some may achieve it, many wont. However, most are able to grasp the philosophy behind the art. Which has to be positive. Many students of aikido (my own included) would probably not fare that well under combat conditions. That is not what they practice aikido for. Why do we teach aikido to children, to those not in physically good shape and to the 'older' student?

Aikido- for me at least - is not just a martial art.

regards,

Mark

Marc Abrams
10-25-2011, 12:22 PM
Hi Marc,

clowns and evolutionary male relatives aside, I agree with your position.

The vast majority of aikidoka worldwide, however, do not have Ueshiba's aiki, some are working towards it the best they can, some may achieve it, many wont. However, most are able to grasp the philosophy behind the art. Which has to be positive. Many students of aikido (my own included) would probably not fare that well under combat conditions. That is not what they practice aikido for. Why do we teach aikido to children, to those not in physically good shape and to the 'older' student?

Aikido- for me at least - is not just a martial art.

regards,

Mark

Mark:

I agree with you. That being said, we should strive to achieve aiki if we are after O'Sensei's Aikido. If we teach, we should strive to teach it as well. I teach the aiki exercises to children, teens, and adults (whatever is considered old?). I believe that the great transformational aspects of Aikido are greatly enhanced as we develop aiki. Striving for less is simply that.

Hope to see you in NY soon.

Marc Abrams

graham christian
10-25-2011, 12:33 PM
No. That idea is incorrect. Morihei Ueshiba told his students that they did not have to follow in his exact spiritual foot steps but could find their own religious/spiritual way. His aiki completed religion. So, if you have his aiki, then you could have whatever religious/spiritual path you wanted and you would be doing his idea of aikido. But, you had to have both. Without aiki, no aikido, no matter how much ai (love) ki you had, no matter how much spirituality you had, no matter how religious you were. If you didn't understand in/yo, you would not be doing Morihei Ueshiba's aikido.

He did indeed tell his students that. How you translate that is down to you. His Aiki contained what some are calling 'Aiki' but was much broader. Thus Aikido.

You have your view. Keep it, use it, progress with it as I do mine.

Have fun.G.

Mark Freeman
10-25-2011, 12:44 PM
Mark:

I agree with you. That being said, we should strive to achieve aiki if we are after O'Sensei's Aikido. If we teach, we should strive to teach it as well. I teach the aiki exercises to children, teens, and adults (whatever is considered old?). I believe that the great transformational aspects of Aikido are greatly enhanced as we develop aiki. Striving for less is simply that.

Hope to see you in NY soon.

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,

agreed again.

I haven't bought my ticket yet (I will be doing so in November). My target leaving date is for the first few days of May, hopefully it will be starting to warm up a bit by then, not sure I am ready for a New York winter!

I look forward to meeting and training with you.

regards,

Mark

MM
10-25-2011, 12:51 PM
He did indeed tell his students that. How you translate that is down to you. His Aiki contained what some are calling 'Aiki' but was much broader. Thus Aikido.

You have your view. Keep it, use it, progress with it as I do mine.

Have fun.G.

Please provide your references and research on how you come to the conclusion that "His Aiki contained what some are calling 'Aiki' but was much broader."

While everyone can have their own views, not all views are correct. I can have a view that the air we breathe is really a mercury gas mixed with gold flakes, but that doesn't make me right.

graham christian
10-25-2011, 01:04 PM
Please provide your references and research on how you come to the conclusion that "His Aiki contained what some are calling 'Aiki' but was much broader."

While everyone can have their own views, not all views are correct. I can have a view that the air we breathe is really a mercury gas mixed with gold flakes, but that doesn't make me right.

I'd rather not on this thread for it detracts from the thread.

If I open up a thread where these things can be discussed feel free to join in. Problem is those types of threads tend to end up in 'true' warfare and being closed down.

Regards.G.

Marc Abrams
10-25-2011, 01:50 PM
Please provide your references and research on how you come to the conclusion that "His Aiki contained what some are calling 'Aiki' but was much broader."

While everyone can have their own views, not all views are correct. I can have a view that the air we breathe is really a mercury gas mixed with gold flakes, but that doesn't make me right.

Mark:

In my line of work, you learn that directly challenging the reality of a delusion does not get you very far. Feel free to extrapolate :D .

Regards,

Marc Abrams

ps- I have found that my kyrptonite shield protects me from the mercury gas so I can collect the gold flakes and sell them down the road at my favorite pawn shop. ;)

gregstec
10-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Please provide your references and research on how you come to the conclusion that "His Aiki contained what some are calling 'Aiki' but was much broader."

While everyone can have their own views, not all views are correct. I can have a view that the air we breathe is really a mercury gas mixed with gold flakes, but that doesn't make me right.

That's because you live next to that chemical plant :D

torbjornsaw
10-25-2011, 09:01 PM
Jumping to the present time, there are many people who would do similar things and call them "aikido" like. They point to doing something good, something worthwhile for their fellow man and call those actions "aikido".

If we look to Kisshomaru Ueshiba's changes in aikido, we can perhaps find some common ground to view those noted actions as "aikido". If we view them from Morihei Ueshiba's aikido, we can find no common ground. at all. There is no aiki, there is no aikido.

Those actions are religious or spiritual and in some manner founded by love. These actions are to be upheld and encouraged. From the changes Kisshomaru made, these actions can be viewed as ai(love) ki. Modern Aikido appealed to the masses because of these changes.

But make no mistake, these actions are not Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. No aiki, no aikido. No matter how much ai(love) ki you have, you will never have Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. You will have Modern Aikido, which is not something to be dismissed lightly, mind you. But that is not the same as the founder's aikido.

Please do not mistake my use of Love of not containing Aiki. Real love is more than just good intentions as anyone who has tasted the spirit will clearly know. Religion is based on a spiritual truths. Some will understand it superficially not having had their own direct insight into the very subtle domains, while others have dipped deep and can speak with authority upon the matter. Its the same in Aikido, some do hardcore exterior "martial" aikido without its accompanying inner quality of sensitivity (they name it Real Aikido). Others who want to explore further, venture into the inner qualities through their daily practice.
I practiced Iwama aikido under Morihiro Saito sensei and can say with certainty that he understood the the blending, the aiki, the awase's inner sensitivity of non-violent engagement. I take it that he learned it from O Sensei. Alas, most Iwama practitioners today, as well as most aikikai people, continue to train "execution" aikido with "good intentions" added for good measure.

To me the OP is all about Aiki and we can physically train it on the mat. Then when we begin to feel it we start to comprehend why O Sensei would use words like love and non-violence and peace to describe his Aikido. It hasn't gone soft or modern. It's just that we begin to appreciate the inner engagement of the art without loosing touch with the basic form and structure of kihon.
Love then, is Aiki in action and very effective still.

Please do not read the poetic language to be a substitute for daily practice, which is the misogi O Sensei left us with.

torbjornsaw
10-25-2011, 09:17 PM
Check this out,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_MuDtIUmBg
From my trip to Iwama just recently.

Marc Abrams
10-26-2011, 08:25 AM
Please do not mistake my use of Love of not containing Aiki. Real love is more than just good intentions as anyone who has tasted the spirit will clearly know. Religion is based on a spiritual truths. Some will understand it superficially not having had their own direct insight into the very subtle domains, while others have dipped deep and can speak with authority upon the matter. Its the same in Aikido, some do hardcore exterior "martial" aikido without its accompanying inner quality of sensitivity (they name it Real Aikido). Others who want to explore further, venture into the inner qualities through their daily practice.
I practiced Iwama aikido under Morihiro Saito sensei and can say with certainty that he understood the the blending, the aiki, the awase's inner sensitivity of non-violent engagement. I take it that he learned it from O Sensei. Alas, most Iwama practitioners today, as well as most aikikai people, continue to train "execution" aikido with "good intentions" added for good measure.

To me the OP is all about Aiki and we can physically train it on the mat. Then when we begin to feel it we start to comprehend why O Sensei would use words like love and non-violence and peace to describe his Aikido. It hasn't gone soft or modern. It's just that we begin to appreciate the inner engagement of the art without loosing touch with the basic form and structure of kihon.
Love then, is Aiki in action and very effective still.

Please do not read the poetic language to be a substitute for daily practice, which is the misogi O Sensei left us with.

Bjorn:

I am not really sure what your understanding of Aiki is? Mark Murray makes very cogent points regarding many people's misunderstanding and misperceptions about what aiki really is. What you think is aiki, might not really be it. If that is the case, your foundations fall out from under you. Iwama style Aikido does not practice aiki, as described by Mark Murray, Dan Harden and others (at least I have yet to see any practitioners in that style demonstrate it). You might want to see if you can be squeezed in to the next seminar that Dan Harden teaches in England to see if what you think is your aiki, actually lives up to the stuff that people like O'Sensei had and could do.

The Aiki Expo's that Stanley Pranin set up years ago, opened the eyes of many of us in that what we thought we had, was not really it. Those experiences left many of us with two glaring realizations: 1) The major impediment to our really learning things is what we believe that we already know; 2) Practicing something one million times will not insure that we learn much of anything, unless we are actually practicing the right stuff- in order to do that, go back to point #1.

Having genuine aiki enabled O'Sensei and others to be able to focus on love. As to the rest of us, back to exploration, discovery and integration thanks to the guidance and instructions of those who actually have Aiki and can teach it.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

torbjornsaw
10-26-2011, 09:44 AM
Thanks Marc, for the info.

Plenty yet to learn for sure, but at ease with my own direction. Maybe one day we get to exchange some ideas on the mat?

Suffice to say that if anyone understand the OP as their own experience in their own aikido, they know what I'm on about.

Aiki can look different from practitioner to practitioner. I'm sure I could learn from your friend but choose to pursue my own interest as that is what I find most interesting and satisfying. Endo sensei comes closest to the feeling I'm pursuing but is yet quiet different. It's very much still in the early discovery phases even though I've been at it since 1974. My metaphors describes well the feeling my aikido contain.

Maybe Marc, I can teach you something?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-26-2011, 10:41 AM
My metaphors describes well the feeling my aikido contain.
I've noticed that.

Marc Abrams
10-26-2011, 10:43 AM
Thanks Marc, for the info.

Plenty yet to learn for sure, but at ease with my own direction. Maybe one day we get to exchange some ideas on the mat?

Suffice to say that if anyone understand the OP as their own experience in their own aikido, they know what I'm on about.

Aiki can look different from practitioner to practitioner. I'm sure I could learn from your friend but choose to pursue my own interest as that is what I find most interesting and satisfying. Endo sensei comes closest to the feeling I'm pursuing but is yet quiet different. It's very much still in the early discovery phases even though I've been at it since 1974. My metaphors describes well the feeling my aikido contain.

Maybe Marc, I can teach you something?

We all can learn from everybody, including beginning students. That does not equate with aiki however. that is quite a particular and very well-defined area, despite the attempts by others to expand the definition beyond that with which O'Sensei had, displayed and talked about.

Regards,

marc abrams

jonreading
10-26-2011, 11:03 AM
I still haven't quite figured out this thread, so I am going to simply address some points within the thread which I feel make a coherent point...

1. The old-school of thought here is in a fight, win immediately and decisively. I think this a is Daito Ryu point and I believe there is a quote from Takeda on this point. Beat your enemy's spirit before ever lifting your sword, blah, blah, blah. I think we are talking about a concept that implies you have defeated your partner at the point when you join (aiki).
2. The love stuff is something about which we can concern ourselves occurs after we have the connection part. I think the argument I consistently hear and see evidence of is that many of us are ignoring this order and skipping right into the love is all you need thing. As my math teacher used to say, reading the answers from the back of the book helps you find some solutions but eventually you get a problem that you can't cheat.
3. The duration in which we train aikido have no direct connection with our skill. Aikido is the only martial art of which I am aware where we promote by perseverance- "don't die and we'll promote you." I have heard senior after senior use this argument and I think "geez, this guy has been training x years and he can't even do y technique?" If I were a model railroader and you came to see my models and they sucked, what would you think if I told you I had been model railroading for 25 years?

These three points illustrate that our education process is flawed. I get upset because I need my seniors to know what is going on so I can learn from them and they can get everything from the deshi before they all pass on. I do not see that happening because too many students are being fed BS at a time when they are susceptible and not questioning the material. "I said this and one time I saw a video of sensei so I know what I am talking about." "I said this and I have been training for 20 years." I think many of these posts are trying to politely solicit some supporting evidence for posts.

Aikido is about facing confrontation. Somewhere we got this notion that we evade confrontation. Then we took out anything that could be ugly. Warfare is confrontation and it is ugly. So to some, their aikido cannot comprehend confrontation or ugliness. To others, the severity and resolution of committing to annihilate your partner is foreign. To yet others, the suddenness of absolute connection before your partner even touches your body is foreign. Be open about these lapses and justify why your aikido omits them, but don't pretend they don't exist in aikido. Or, if you advocate they do not exist, be prepared to step onto the mat with someone to share that conviction.

P.S. I wrote this post with more harsh language because some other posts have already addressed these issues in a more appropriate manner and were not met with a response. I respect good aikido and would be a fool to think any one person could have it all. I personally enjoy sharing experiences with peers about why their aikido feels different and how their convictions affect their aikido.

mathewjgano
10-26-2011, 12:40 PM
I still haven't quite figured out this thread, so I am going to simply address some points within the thread which I feel make a coherent point...

1. The old-school of thought here is in a fight, win immediately and decisively. I think this a is Daito Ryu point and I believe there is a quote from Takeda on this point. Beat your enemy's spirit before ever lifting your sword, blah, blah, blah. I think we are talking about a concept that implies you have defeated your partner at the point when you join (aiki).
2. The love stuff is something about which we can concern ourselves occurs after we have the connection part. I think the argument I consistently hear and see evidence of is that many of us are ignoring this order and skipping right into the love is all you need thing. As my math teacher used to say, reading the answers from the back of the book helps you find some solutions but eventually you get a problem that you can't cheat.
3. The duration in which we train aikido have no direct connection with our skill. Aikido is the only martial art of which I am aware where we promote by perseverance- "don't die and we'll promote you." I have heard senior after senior use this argument and I think "geez, this guy has been training x years and he can't even do y technique?" If I were a model railroader and you came to see my models and they sucked, what would you think if I told you I had been model railroading for 25 years?

These three points illustrate that our education process is flawed. I get upset because I need my seniors to know what is going on so I can learn from them and they can get everything from the deshi before they all pass on. I do not see that happening because too many students are being fed BS at a time when they are susceptible and not questioning the material. "I said this and one time I saw a video of sensei so I know what I am talking about." "I said this and I have been training for 20 years." I think many of these posts are trying to politely solicit some supporting evidence for posts.

Aikido is about facing confrontation. Somewhere we got this notion that we evade confrontation. Then we took out anything that could be ugly. Warfare is confrontation and it is ugly. So to some, their aikido cannot comprehend confrontation or ugliness. To others, the severity and resolution of committing to annihilate your partner is foreign. To yet others, the suddenness of absolute connection before your partner even touches your body is foreign. Be open about these lapses and justify why your aikido omits them, but don't pretend they don't exist in aikido. Or, if you advocate they do not exist, be prepared to step onto the mat with someone to share that conviction.

P.S. I wrote this post with more harsh language because some other posts have already addressed these issues in a more appropriate manner and were not met with a response. I respect good aikido and would be a fool to think any one person could have it all. I personally enjoy sharing experiences with peers about why their aikido feels different and how their convictions affect their aikido.

Nicely put. I think part of the problem, as usual, has to do with semantics. To the degree we have differing understandings (and we all do), we have different semantics to our words/concepts. I think this is at the heart of the doka referring to the inability to capture aiki with the brush/pen; where words fail to be adequate on their own, and where physical interaction becomes the crucial learning tool...and even that requires a degree of magnanimity on the part of the people involved to share all we have to share, never mind the humility to accept what the other is presenting and allow the other to process the information on their own time...as they will no matter what anyway.
In the loosest sense, if someone practices Aikido, and some given behavior stems from that practice, it's sometimes referred to as "aiki" in the sense that it's in some way aiki-like (e.g. I do this a lot: "everything" I do is "aiki" because it reflects my understanding of aiki, very incomplete though I know it is). So the sense develops that whatever I do is "aiki" (aiki-like in some way). Someone else comes along and considers aiki as a very discrete thing (i.e. aiki-like necessarily isn't aiki). Then comes the issues of ownership: how can one ask me to redefine my practice; to accept the notion some central concept is essentilly flawed when they have little to no exposure to it? It's mine and I know it's not perfect, and because I understand the incomplete nature of my own understanding, it's not for other people to tell me what to make of what is essentilly mine. I relate this to a disstinction between concept and reality. The concepts, based in personal semantics, are individual in nature. Whether we like it or not, they are personal; we cannot escape the personal nature of discussing concepts, particularly when they have to do with life and death issues as budo concepts are apt to do. I personally have very very little problem being told I'm wrong. My ignorance is central to my personal way of life and has been for the better part of my short 33 years. It's the safest bit of information I have (I trust in it more than anthing else). Still, I find I have to check myself on it....and it's from these ideas that I get one of my personal catch-phrases I'm most proud of: knowledge obfuscates as much as it reveals. Metacognitive practices are hard if not impossible to be perfected because we're too close to see ourselves from an objective viewpoint. It's kind of the root of the human condition, really...er...in my opinion.
One of the beautiful things of Aikido to my mind is the concept of musubi because it seems to imply an attempt at bridging this gap. The "au" and "n" (inspiration of "aun"kai, if I'm correct) guarding shrines reflects, I believe, this attempt at intuition of "true" understanding, of a "true" (instant with no lag) state of connection beween different people and things. It's a wordless understanding expressed in two sounds, which reflects someone starting to speak, and someone else instantly recognizing the meaning. Again, as I understand it...my study has been wanting for some time now, so I appologize if I'm just adding to the proverbial noise in the signal.
Part of what Jon is describing above I think of in terms of my Public Education training and is why I like talking to martial artists despite my lack of training: testing. You can test in a variety of ways, but the most useful in my opinion is the kind which ideally happens at every instant of the learning process. Truly, if you're testing this way you do not really need formal, standardized testing so much because it's built into the learning process. It's also what I really like about my personal experiences with learning Aikido. In the past I've referred to it as the ability to play with technique. It allows a degree of spontaneous bouncing back and forth of ideas, expressed through the actions we take, and as long as our truest goal is to learn, evenually the interaction will settle in that regard. The problem comes when we start wanting other things, like asserting the validity of our own understanding. The intent becomes less pure and splits, creating results that are centered around something other than mutual understanding.
And now having read all this I can't help but feel my words fall terribly short, like perhaps I'm focusing too much on my own understanding and as a result am probably missing out on some bigger picture. It is whatever it is, and here it is for review.
For whatever it's worth, this is my take on True Warfare.
Sincerely,
Matthew

Carl Thompson
10-26-2011, 08:26 PM
I think the mention of Endo Shihan maybe distracted some people from the fact that this thread is in the "spiritual" section, not the technical one. Endo's basics are very different from Saito Shihan's and I think it would be a mistake (and also off topic) to make assumptions about Bjorn sensei's technical skills (including kokyu/IP) based on Endo Shihan's training methods.

Carl

torbjornsaw
10-26-2011, 11:19 PM
Well, I only took ukemi from Endo Shihan once, but liked it. Saito Shihan was my main teacher.

grondahl
10-27-2011, 12:48 AM
I think the mention of Endo Shihan maybe distracted some people from the fact that this thread is in the "spiritual" section, not the technical one. Endo's basics are very different from Saito Shihan's and I think it would be a mistake (and also off topic) to make assumptions about Bjorn sensei's technical skills (including kokyu/IP) based on Endo Shihan's training methods.


The only reference to training styles in this thread was when Abrams clearly stated that there is no aiki in Iwama-style aikido.

Carl Thompson
10-27-2011, 08:14 AM
The only reference to training styles in this thread was when Abrams clearly stated that there is no aiki in Iwama-style aikido.

Yes I noticed that :)

I figured anyone viewing the thread and coming up with such conclusions should be familiar with Bjorn's teacher. If a reader was not so knowledgeable about a particular teacher and only had the mention of Endo by one of that teacher's students to go on... I figured I'd point out that there's a difference. I don't know about Marc's particular experience.

Carl

graham christian
10-27-2011, 07:20 PM
Mark:

In my line of work, you learn that directly challenging the reality of a delusion does not get you very far. Feel free to extrapolate :D .

Regards,

Marc Abrams

ps- I have found that my kyrptonite shield protects me from the mercury gas so I can collect the gold flakes and sell them down the road at my favorite pawn shop. ;)

Sounds like you've asked yourself a few questions.

graham christian
10-27-2011, 08:45 PM
Before invading another country we realize what got us into this situation. We realize we have no right to invade anyone. We realize the difference between invasion and entering and sharing. We then realize we only enter anothers space through invitation.

Then we realize that when someone is trying to invade our space we enter into the realm of self defence.

Then we go beyond even that. We realize Aikido.

Regards.G.

MM
10-28-2011, 06:12 AM
Before invading another country we realize what got us into this situation. We realize we have no right to invade anyone. We realize the difference between invasion and entering and sharing. We then realize we only enter anothers space through invitation.

Then we realize that when someone is trying to invade our space we enter into the realm of self defence.

Then we go beyond even that. We realize Aikido.

Regards.G.

So, um, are you advocating that people do the *wrong* thing in order for them to realize aikido? You have posted a list of things to do before realizing aikido and the very first one is the invasion into "another country". Do you really believe that someone must do the wrong thing before finally realizing aikido?

If you only enter another's space through invitation, but there is no invitation, how do you realize aikido. If you have a psycho who gives no invitation using a knife, does that mean you have no aikido? Or is it that you *can* invade without invitation if it's "self defence"? Which means, again, that you're doing the wrong thing to go beyond to find aikido.

What do you mean by "beyond even that". It's like you've made a grand canyon leap of faith which is based upon faulty premises to arrive at some unknown definition of "aikido".

Demetrio Cereijo
10-28-2011, 06:30 AM
Before invading another country we realize what got us into this situation.
They were "asking for it". Like Tohei when his coat was stolen.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=695

graham christian
10-28-2011, 12:53 PM
So, um, are you advocating that people do the *wrong* thing in order for them to realize aikido? You have posted a list of things to do before realizing aikido and the very first one is the invasion into "another country". Do you really believe that someone must do the wrong thing before finally realizing aikido?

If you only enter another's space through invitation, but there is no invitation, how do you realize aikido. If you have a psycho who gives no invitation using a knife, does that mean you have no aikido? Or is it that you *can* invade without invitation if it's "self defence"? Which means, again, that you're doing the wrong thing to go beyond to find aikido.

What do you mean by "beyond even that". It's like you've made a grand canyon leap of faith which is based upon faulty premises to arrive at some unknown definition of "aikido".

Hi Mark.
May I say it is me who is surprised more by others not seeing invasion as anti-aikido than others being surprised by that view.

Thus it leads me to recognise some have yet to fully appreciate Aikido.

For someone who has never trained from that viewpoint it would indeed seem like a giant leap of faith or unreal and such a person would no doubt find a way of putting it down.

By thinking in terms of right and wrong you create your own confusion.

There is a way which is both harmonious and effective yet is not invasion. Because 'we' are not wise enough to see it merely shows how much 'we' don't know.

Until invasion is seen as arrogant and unnecessary then it merely serves as a barrier to increased awareness and thus better solutions. The better solutions therefore are more harmonious and effective and thus more Aikido.

In as much as 'faulty' premises and 'erroneous' definitions then suffice to say quite the opposite. It brings about a better reality on what the founder meant by those things he said referring to Aikido that many still argue about or don't fully appreciate to this day. ie: love, universal love, non-resistance, no enemies, centre of centre, harmony, loving protection, no pulling or pushing, etc.etc. etc.

Regards.G.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 12:54 PM
They were "asking for it". Like Tohei when his coat was stolen.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=695

And this means?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-28-2011, 01:03 PM
Another kitten.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 01:08 PM
Another kitten.

As I thought. Not much.

MM
10-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Hi Mark.
May I say it is me who is surprised more by others not seeing invasion as anti-aikido than others being surprised by that view.

Thus it leads me to recognise some have yet to fully appreciate Aikido.

For someone who has never trained from that viewpoint it would indeed seem like a giant leap of faith or unreal and such a person would no doubt find a way of putting it down.

By thinking in terms of right and wrong you create your own confusion.

There is a way which is both harmonious and effective yet is not invasion. Because 'we' are not wise enough to see it merely shows how much 'we' don't know.

Until invasion is seen as arrogant and unnecessary then it merely serves as a barrier to increased awareness and thus better solutions. The better solutions therefore are more harmonious and effective and thus more Aikido.

In as much as 'faulty' premises and 'erroneous' definitions then suffice to say quite the opposite. It brings about a better reality on what the founder meant by those things he said referring to Aikido that many still argue about or don't fully appreciate to this day. ie: love, universal love, non-resistance, no enemies, centre of centre, harmony, loving protection, no pulling or pushing, etc.etc. etc.

Regards.G.

You didn't address my post. You went off on a tangent. You stated that one had to invade prior to realizing "aikido". Why? Here in this post, you seem to back track and state that one shouldn't invade for "aikido".

I find from your posts that you are really having a hard time putting into words exactly how you define aikido. First, it's invade prior to aikido, then it's don't invade prior to aikido, then it's people don't understand aikido, then it's aikido is harmony, loving protection (which is really just mimicking other people's words), then it's this and then it's that. You dance about with your ideas like a marionette on a pogo stick being chased by circus ponies. I've yet to see some solid ideas from you about aikido.

If you're trying to seem like a teacher, perhaps a suggestion ... solidify your ideas and definitions of aikido such that people can understand them. As it is, I think a lot of us are just shaking our heads ... trying to figure out where you stand, what you believe, how you define aikido, etc.

And writing things like, "There is a way which is both harmonious and effective yet is not invasion. Because 'we' are not wise enough to see it merely shows how much 'we' don't know" and "Thus it leads me to recognise some have yet to fully appreciate Aikido" don't help as they are perceived as a type of backhanded insult. Maybe you don't mean them that way, maybe you do. I don't know. But, a more, clear, and concise posting style from you would help in a lot of ways.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-28-2011, 02:12 PM
You dance about with your ideas like a marionette on a pogo stick being chased by circus ponies.
Circus ponies? That belongs to TTTCNBN.

Gorgeous George
10-28-2011, 02:26 PM
Hi Mark.
May I say it is me who is surprised more by others not seeing invasion as anti-aikido than others being surprised by that view.

Thus it leads me to recognise some have yet to fully appreciate Aikido.

For someone who has never trained from that viewpoint it would indeed seem like a giant leap of faith or unreal and such a person would no doubt find a way of putting it down.

By thinking in terms of right and wrong you create your own confusion.

There is a way which is both harmonious and effective yet is not invasion. Because 'we' are not wise enough to see it merely shows how much 'we' don't know.

Until invasion is seen as arrogant and unnecessary then it merely serves as a barrier to increased awareness and thus better solutions. The better solutions therefore are more harmonious and effective and thus more Aikido.

In as much as 'faulty' premises and 'erroneous' definitions then suffice to say quite the opposite. It brings about a better reality on what the founder meant by those things he said referring to Aikido that many still argue about or don't fully appreciate to this day. ie: love, universal love, non-resistance, no enemies, centre of centre, harmony, loving protection, no pulling or pushing, etc.etc. etc.

Regards.G.

...didn't The Founder also teach....irimi?

A key principle of aikido, which is 'anti-aikido'; if only you'd been there to tell him, he could have appreciated aikido!

Gorgeous George
10-28-2011, 02:28 PM
And writing things like, "There is a way which is both harmonious and effective yet is not invasion. Because 'we' are not wise enough to see it merely shows how much 'we' don't know" and "Thus it leads me to recognise some have yet to fully appreciate Aikido" don't help as they are perceived as a type of backhanded insult. Maybe you don't mean them that way, maybe you do. I don't know. But, a more, clear, and concise posting style from you would help in a lot of ways.

You don't understand: he's harmonising with you, using super-real, completely mastered aikido!
That's what aikido is, at higher levels: the opposite of harmonising - but that's just how it looks to us peons...

mathewjgano
10-28-2011, 02:36 PM
And this means?

I take it to mean: an opening is an invitation; consider your surroundings.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 02:41 PM
You didn't address my post. You went off on a tangent. You stated that one had to invade prior to realizing "aikido". Why? Here in this post, you seem to back track and state that one shouldn't invade for "aikido".

I find from your posts that you are really having a hard time putting into words exactly how you define aikido. First, it's invade prior to aikido, then it's don't invade prior to aikido, then it's people don't understand aikido, then it's aikido is harmony, loving protection (which is really just mimicking other people's words), then it's this and then it's that. You dance about with your ideas like a marionette on a pogo stick being chased by circus ponies. I've yet to see some solid ideas from you about aikido.

If you're trying to seem like a teacher, perhaps a suggestion ... solidify your ideas and definitions of aikido such that people can understand them. As it is, I think a lot of us are just shaking our heads ... trying to figure out where you stand, what you believe, how you define aikido, etc.

And writing things like, "There is a way which is both harmonious and effective yet is not invasion. Because 'we' are not wise enough to see it merely shows how much 'we' don't know" and "Thus it leads me to recognise some have yet to fully appreciate Aikido" don't help as they are perceived as a type of backhanded insult. Maybe you don't mean them that way, maybe you do. I don't know. But, a more, clear, and concise posting style from you would help in a lot of ways.

Mark. You say I stated that. I did not. If that is your take on what I said then it is in that one passage you are referring to that the misunderstanding lies. I shall reread it and see if it says what you say it does.

I have found that what I say can be construed as a backhanded insult when it isn't so yes that leads to learning how to present better. It also has another side. Some are just plain not willing to accept I could know more than them in this expansive art. How to address those is quite a challenge, enjoyable, yet challenging.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-28-2011, 02:52 PM
May I say it is me who is surprised more by others not seeing invasion as anti-aikido than others being surprised by that view.

Thus it leads me to recognise some have yet to fully appreciate Aikido.
I think Bjorn made the semantics a little more clear that his use of the term holds different connotations than yours. The world around us "invades" us through the simple virtue of contact; it is inescapable. How we interact with that contact determines whether or not it's a pleasure or something else. How we are organized determines the initial nature of the interaction/contact. He's not saying (I'm pretty sure) people should practice breaking and entering or starting wars or striking needlessly.
I suggest the idea that no one fully apreciates Aikido; that each of us has different qualities and quantities of understanding...hence the need for life-long study.

By thinking in terms of right and wrong you create your own confusion.

You seem to be suggesting some folks have the wrong view of Aikido.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 03:17 PM
So, um, are you advocating that people do the *wrong* thing in order for them to realize aikido? You have posted a list of things to do before realizing aikido and the very first one is the invasion into "another country". Do you really believe that someone must do the wrong thing before finally realizing aikido?

If you only enter another's space through invitation, but there is no invitation, how do you realize aikido. If you have a psycho who gives no invitation using a knife, does that mean you have no aikido? Or is it that you *can* invade without invitation if it's "self defence"? Which means, again, that you're doing the wrong thing to go beyond to find aikido.

What do you mean by "beyond even that". It's like you've made a grand canyon leap of faith which is based upon faulty premises to arrive at some unknown definition of "aikido".

O.K. Back to this one. As I said looking at it from right and wrong you will not see what I am saying there.

To understand what I mean you would have to read what I wrote on 'three stages of 'Aikido' .

So I could be guilty of bad presentation and assuming people here already know where I'm coming from.

So for your benefit I'll explain further. Ist stage is learning how to harmonize with yourself under pressure ie: whilst being attacked or held etc. 2nd stage is then learning how to harmonize with the force, motion etc, in other words the other and thus handle the other competently. Third stage is going beyond this and not only doing the first two but protecting and making the other feel better as a result of the interraction. To actually improve their condition.

Along this path you start by, in stage one, learning how to remain calm and stable etc whilst being 'invaded' In stage two you are learning that through certain principles you can now actually handle those 'invading' your space. In stage three you learn you have no concerns therefore on self defence and become aware of other principles where you can enter and share and bring about harmony and betterment for that potential enemy and there is no invasion necessary. Thus the words of O'Sensei make sense at that point.

Now back to my style of presentation. I have said I give things that make people think. They make some react, sometimes passionately. However they always have a basic tenet which I see needs inspection. In this case 'invasion'

Why? Because when I see people following a thought like sheep without inspecting it I see the blind following the blind. In this case if you believe in invasion then it would be wise to look at what you are agreeing with by following what sounds 'logical' If you agree with invasion then don't complain when you are invaded would be a very simplistic way of putting it. Thus you would be agreeing with bullying, with rudeness and bad manners, with rape even and burglary for they are all instances of invasion.

Only a misinformed or indeed psychotic person would think this way for it is how they justify their actions by seeing the 'others' as enemies.

There, I have explained my view as best I can. You may agree or disagree or share, it's up to you.

RegardsG.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 03:42 PM
I think Bjorn made the semantics a little more clear that his use of the term holds different connotations than yours. The world around us "invades" us through the simple virtue of contact; it is inescapable. How we interact with that contact determines whether or not it's a pleasure or something else. How we are organized determines the initial nature of the interaction/contact. He's not saying (I'm pretty sure) people should practice breaking and entering or starting wars or striking needlessly.
I suggest the idea that no one fully apreciates Aikido; that each of us has different qualities and quantities of understanding...hence the need for life-long study.

You seem to be suggesting some folks have the wrong view of Aikido.

Hi Matthew.
I see the word invasion used as you say he used it later but is it true? Does the world around us invade simply by virtue of contact? Thus I say the wrong word is used. In the op it is clearly about invading and cutting communication lines etc. It is about attacking and dominating with superior force. So I suggest a better analogy that's all.

I too suggest an incomplete appreciation of Aikido in it's fullness.

Now me suggesting or implying some folks have a wrong view of Aikido. Yes I do. Do not many say I have a wrong view? Did not those taught by Ueshiba himself differ in opinions and say such things even about each other? Yes, some did.

I would say however I do not say it as blatantly as many for I also say all those doing various forms of Aikido are all doing Aikido. Sounds contradictory but it's all down to when I say it and why. As usual context is king. Others can then in future say 'but you said' and use it as a put down or whatever but as I've said about historical data, a person can say anything at any particular time so taking a 'he said' and then using it to mean extra and over what he was using it for at the time is a failing in my view. Or even demeaning it and thus giving it less import.

So I can imply many don't understand Aikido and also I can imply everyone is doing Aikido both.

I can also say from the view of 'ultimate' Aikido that no one I've seen is doing it. As can you or anyone say the same.

May I just also add that many teachers may say the same. For example I could imagine let's say Tohei having said 'No Ki no Aikido' and thus when seeing that aspect not 'emphasized' could well say that's not Aikido. I guarantee some shihans have said as much at times from their various views.

So I put it to you, how comes it's 'understandable' if one person says it yet not so if another does?

Thoughts?

Regards.G.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 03:50 PM
I take it to mean: an opening is an invitation; consider your surroundings.

Yes, an opening to potential harmony.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-28-2011, 03:53 PM
Yes, an opening to potential harmony.

Regards.G.

:p Perhaps the thief felt harmonious. :D

graham christian
10-28-2011, 04:13 PM
...didn't The Founder also teach....irimi?

A key principle of aikido, which is 'anti-aikido'; if only you'd been there to tell him, he could have appreciated aikido!

Ha, ha. Now how do you tie in irimi to what I was saying and how do you then manage to create a scene of me in a place telling O'Sensei something?

That bee in your bonnet sure is giving you a buzzz.

graham christian
10-28-2011, 04:15 PM
:p Perhaps the thief felt harmonious. :D

Nah, just a ninja practicing.

torbjornsaw
10-29-2011, 01:08 AM
Hi Matthew.
I see the word invasion used as you say he used it later but is it true? Does the world around us invade simply by virtue of contact? Thus I say the wrong word is used. In the op it is clearly about invading and cutting communication lines etc. It is about attacking and dominating with superior force. So I suggest a better analogy that's all.

Regards.G.

Sorry Graham, seemingly you clearly didn't understand my op and that leads me to think you have no experience of what I'm describing. It's a caring, loving, aware and conscious feeling engagement that is present from the moment we lay eyes on each other. It's being your brother when you don't believe you have one. We can call it pre-emptive and infiltration using words of war or we can call it fully embracing using more acceptable language. Some times some words just hits the correct note inside and we can feel it in our engagement. If you loosen your judgment of what is the correct way of saying something, missing the heart of the matter, you might find a new experience waiting to reveal itself to you. If you like to express it differently please do so, and let's see if we are describing the same thing? Because so far I haven't heard you describe anything similar to what I've expressed in the op. To clarify, it is not literal. Do not invade another country please. Really I shouldn't have to clarify this. It's takes away all joy in sharing. Because you already know it's a metaphor for an interior experience between two aikidokas. But if you want to play the fool and pretend you know better the hole you're digging for your self just gets bigger and bigger.

niall
10-29-2011, 04:07 AM
invading
spies
infiltrate
attack
cut
destroy
pick off
overrun
occupy
hold
flood
occupying
squeeze out
strike

14 reasons why the original post is nothing to do with aikido. 14 actions based on fear.

graham christian
10-29-2011, 05:52 AM
Sorry Graham, seemingly you clearly didn't understand my op and that leads me to think you have no experience of what I'm describing. It's a caring, loving, aware and conscious feeling engagement that is present from the moment we lay eyes on each other. It's being your brother when you don't believe you have one. We can call it pre-emptive and infiltration using words of war or we can call it fully embracing using more acceptable language. Some times some words just hits the correct note inside and we can feel it in our engagement. If you loosen your judgment of what is the correct way of saying something, missing the heart of the matter, you might find a new experience waiting to reveal itself to you. If you like to express it differently please do so, and let's see if we are describing the same thing? Because so far I haven't heard you describe anything similar to what I've expressed in the op. To clarify, it is not literal. Do not invade another country please. Really I shouldn't have to clarify this. It's takes away all joy in sharing. Because you already know it's a metaphor for an interior experience between two aikidokas. But if you want to play the fool and pretend you know better the hole you're digging for your self just gets bigger and bigger.

Hi Torbjorn.
So you think it's a good metaphor for what you later describe. I think it isn't. There you are. No fool playing,

'Yoshi drew his sword and calmly waited as the enemy approached menacingly. Jiro was set on wiping this idiot off of the face of the earth and sword raised faced Yoshi, pervading him like a radar scanning for openings, focused, with dark piercing eyes that sent fear racing through most opponents as they cut into their souls like laser beams.

Yoshi calmly looked. His mind still like a cloudless, windless, summers day. There before him he saw this lost soul, a long lost friend, trying his best to be what he wasn't. Yoshi felt the scanning, the laser like negative Ki, the monster like clothing being worn by this unfortunate man. He saw through to the hidden goodness and love that this poor fool was running away from. He felt Jiros mind scanning, plotting, full of strategies and games of death. An inner warm smile filled his whole body as he joined and blended with it all, still unmoved, still peaceful, at one with all and eyes that flowed with compassion, shimmejutsu.

Jiro felt a nervousness and frustration and summoned all his willpower and rage and leapt in with his death cut and felt his own body split in half as he met his own death.

Jiro looked up from the floor, as Yoshi looked down at him smiling. Confused, sure he was dead yet he was still alive. Alive but thoroughly defeated. Ashamed. Yet somehow released from some evil grip.

Yoshi thanked him for the experience and went on his way. 'It's been a good day' he thought.

There, that's my take on it. Enjoy.

Regards.G.

Anthony Loeppert
10-29-2011, 08:52 AM
To clarify, it is not literal. Do not invade another country please.

This is one of the (LOL) funniest sentences I've read in a long time given the subject matter: Aikido, AKA the Art of Peace.


Really I shouldn't have to clarify this. It's takes away all joy in sharing. Because you already know it's a metaphor for an interior experience between two aikidokas.

Agreed! That is why it is so funny! You did have to clarify, the thread development demanded it!

Anyway, I don't pretend to know much and that matches with reality, so I lurk as a reader more and don't post too often but when I see a gem like this...

Regards,
Anthony

mathewjgano
10-29-2011, 10:50 AM
14 reasons why the original post is nothing to do with aikido. 14 actions based on fear.

The more I think about the original post the more I'm appreciating it for what I see as being both provocative and subtle. My initial reaction was actually pretty similar because the language is couched in "bu." At first glance all I saw was militaristic principles of conflict...and frankly as a proud, peaceful, American, these days I'm particularly sick and tired of conflict and tough talking. But that's part of why I'm appreciating it more: just as Aikido is, at first glance, an art with weapons and fighting techniques, at a deeper level it's not about that much, if at all. We can cut things apart or we can cut them together, the difference seems to lay more in the intent than the "cut."

torbjornsaw
10-29-2011, 11:30 AM
14 reasons why the original post is nothing to do with aikido. 14 actions based on fear:

invading like a fragrance
spies just like close friends
infiltrate your deepest fears
attack your pride
cut your ignorance
destroy arrogance
pick off excess
overrun stagnation
occupy empty space
hold it together
flood with love
occupying with meaning
squeeze out resentment
strike the bell

No more fear..

torbjornsaw
10-29-2011, 11:34 AM
It's like pulling teeth isn't it? Or rolling a cart uphill. Or swimming up-streams.
Aiki is fun, remember?

mathewjgano
10-29-2011, 11:45 AM
It's like pulling teeth isn't it? Or rolling a cart uphill. Or swimming up-streams.
Aiki is fun, remember?

All of which can be very healthy. :D
Take care, sir!
Matt

Anthony Loeppert
10-29-2011, 06:29 PM
The more I think about the original post the more I'm appreciating it for what I see as being both provocative and subtle. My initial reaction was actually pretty similar because the language is couched in "bu." At first glance all I saw was militaristic principles of conflict...and frankly as a proud, peaceful, American, these days I'm particularly sick and tired of conflict and tough talking. But that's part of why I'm appreciating it more: just as Aikido is, at first glance, an art with weapons and fighting techniques, at a deeper level it's not about that much, if at all.

Intellectual honesty is always appreciated and refreshing. I'm speaking in generalities to others that might have posted to this thread not to those that admit to themselves there is something they might not understand and reflect further. I didn't really "get" the original post either but (waiting, watching, and reserving judgement) I interpreted post #5 as a hint: it looked to me as the same formula/idea (as post #1) with different values plugged in for the variables. Others saw this, though it came from the same poster, as diametrically opposed: post 1 bad (for example see post 2), post 5 good (see post 6).

Anyway, to say what the post definitely was/is about is harder than ruling out what it was not - a literal call for/praise of invasion which seems on its face absurd, given the context.

I suppose this is the limitation of the medium we are trying to relate to strangers... text loses much of the context we have when interpreting natural languages and subtlety is easily overrun.

Take care,
Anthony

graham christian
10-29-2011, 06:36 PM
It's like pulling teeth isn't it? Or rolling a cart uphill. Or swimming up-streams.
Aiki is fun, remember?

More like the great escape. Yeah, that was fun.

graham christian
10-30-2011, 08:52 AM
The more I think about the original post the more I'm appreciating it for what I see as being both provocative and subtle. My initial reaction was actually pretty similar because the language is couched in "bu." At first glance all I saw was militaristic principles of conflict...and frankly as a proud, peaceful, American, these days I'm particularly sick and tired of conflict and tough talking. But that's part of why I'm appreciating it more: just as Aikido is, at first glance, an art with weapons and fighting techniques, at a deeper level it's not about that much, if at all. We can cut things apart or we can cut them together, the difference seems to lay more in the intent than the "cut."

Interesting. I find if I read it and give it poetic licence then it's a nice poem. If I take it as given, a metaphor of true war then I see an attempt to apply Aikido principles to war. Mmmmmm.

Or is true war a metaphor also? Is there such a thing?

Also, does Aikido look as you describe at first glance?

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-30-2011, 12:43 PM
Interesting. I find if I read it and give it poetic licence then it's a nice poem. If I take it as given, a metaphor of true war then I see an attempt to apply Aikido principles to war. Mmmmmm.

Or is true war a metaphor also? Is there such a thing?

Also, does Aikido look as you describe at first glance?

Regards.G.

I think "true war" is a bit of a koan, not unlike "true aikido," or "true basket weaving." We might each have different ideas as to what constitutes the truest aspects of the thing, but it's too subjective to arrive at an objectively reliable idea. To some, true warfare is absolute destruction. To me it's utmost effort toward survival of life...something not very popular with people who are bent on enmity.
My view of Aikido is that is can be applied to anything, including things like war. I think of Mochizuki's remarks about artillary as an example. I don't think it's an ideal situation or application, but if the aim is to preserve life and, hypothetically speaking, it was essentially the only option, I see it as relevant. Then again, as I said, I think Aikido is universal in application, since I see it as an extention of kami no michi...not that I understand that properly.
Regarding first glances, I'm not entirely sure I understand your meaning, but I would say Aikido looks like many things to many people. I was speaking in general terms, but most people see a way of fighting when they see aikido methods. Is it the "real" Aikido? Probably not, but I would say "real" Aikido is something no one can actually comprehend: the concept(s) each of us holds in mind about it are always wanting somehow; none of us is exactly right, even if some of us might have a more developed understanding in specific regards. For what it's worth, my first impression of Aikido was that is was kinda like "Japanese Tai Chi."

graham christian
10-30-2011, 12:56 PM
Thanks Matthew. A well thought out view if I may say so. Mine being different doesn't take away from following your reasoning.

I asked about first impressions of Aikido because I feel most (I may be wrong here) see it more as you described ie: like a japanese tai chi type of art. Even watching O'Sensei in action others have usually laughed and been amazed as it looks more like a person playing, having fun. Just something that took my attention, that's all.

Regards.G.

mathewjgano
10-30-2011, 03:59 PM
Thanks Matthew. A well thought out view if I may say so. Mine being different doesn't take away from following your reasoning.

I asked about first impressions of Aikido because I feel most (I may be wrong here) see it more as you described ie: like a japanese tai chi type of art. Even watching O'Sensei in action others have usually laughed and been amazed as it looks more like a person playing, having fun. Just something that took my attention, that's all.

Regards.G.

Thank you, Graham, I appreciate that! One of my favorite things about Aikido is that fun I see...that play. Somewhere I mentioned that I think life is so important you can't take it too seriously. I suppose the flip side of that is that life is so much fun we can't afford to be too silly (being raised on Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny, I love silly, and cherish light-hearted absurdity). What has caused me to bring Aikido so close to my personal :do: is what I perceive to be this profound dichotomy exemplified by it. I feel lucky that the handful of people I've been fortunate enough to train with also exemplify this absolutely serious play; this absolutely playful seriousness...which at times simply appears either serious or playful, but when looked at in the whole context, they feed each other somehow...one creates space for the other...or something like that...
Indeed I am very greatful, despite my easily distracted personality, and I look forward to positive growth (in body; in mind; and to whatever degree it might exit, in spirit), which is, per my understanding of my meager studies, the essence of the way from which aiki is given birth.
And that is, per my minds eye, also True Warfare.
Coincidentally, my view regarding Tai Chi and Aikido have, like most things, both changed and remained the same.
Take care, sir!
Matt