torifune and IS

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[Carsten Möllering]

Hi,

can somebody (or better: wants to) give me a clue how to understand / practice torifune as a method of internal training?
Do you do it? Or is it (in oyur eyes) just part of a spiritual way which doesn't belong to aikido?
How do you do it?

If I know it right, it was not part of Ueshibas practice from the beginning and does not stem from Daito ryu?
Thinking of the "Ueshibas aiki" thread:
Can "the stuff" be seen Ueshiba doing torifune?

Sorry for asking maybe silly questions.

[Tim Ruijs]

In my experience it helps to do the exercise with a partner. Your partner stands in front of you, feet side by side, holding your wrists. You do torifune and try to keep your partner moving while maintaining your own balance and posture. Proper distance is very important.
When you do the exercise like this you will feel how to move your center and remain connected to your partner. After that when you do the exercise solo its 'content' has become much more valuable.

Also I think the exercise is originally Shinto....but I am not sure.

[Carsten Möllering]

In my experience it helps to do the exercise with a partner. ...
Thank you.

Also I think the exercise is originally Shinto....but I am not sure.
Yes, think so too.
That's exactly why I am asking about it's connex to IS, aiki ... in Ueshibas practice.
(And in our practice today.)

[Walter Martindale]

Opening scenes of Enter the Dragon - you see the movement on which this exercise is based. Get your mind around moving a scull against a viscous medium (water)... The little guy in the movie uses his arms to connect his body to the oar which, in the long run, he's moving with his feet.

[phitruong]

Hi,

can somebody (or better: wants to) give me a clue how to understand / practice torifune as a method of internal training?
Do you do it? Or is it (in oyur eyes) just part of a spiritual way which doesn't belong to aikido?
How do you do it?
.

not spiritual. quite practical from an IS training perspective. it starts with two directions: forward and backward.

forward: push from the back leg, send the energy up to your hara/dantien, then down to the front leg
backward: push from the front leg, send the energy up to your hara/dantien, then down to the back leg

couple of things: curve your tail bone slightly so your lower back can relax, keep hip joint creases relax and soft, use the Buddha breathing pattern (kokyu power). for the advance, you add something called dantien rotation which you need to talk to Sigman or Dan or one of the Chen taichi masters. actually, you need to get your hand on one of those guys to learn how to do things the correct way.

the aunkai guys have something they called push-out. that's the forward portion of torifune (even though the aunkai folks don't move forward, but their internal energy do; thus, internal, right?). might want to talk to Rob John about that.

for taiji, if you know silk reeling, where you normally do it in a horse stand. just turn your body 90 degree either left or right and you would have torifune.

practice without a partner: rig up a bungee cord horizontally around solar plex level. grab the thing with both hands and do torifune.

*standard disclaimer of IS idiots*

[thisisnotreal]

nice post.
and i like your disclaimer.
;)

[Lee Salzman]

couple of things: curve your tail bone slightly so your lower back can relax, keep hip joint creases relax and soft, use the Buddha breathing pattern (kokyu power). for the advance, you add something called dantien rotation which you need to talk to Sigman or Dan or one of the Chen taichi masters. actually, you need to get your hand on one of those guys to learn how to do things the correct way.


I figure I'll eat the bullet before someone else does. When you say "the correct way", I believe you mean "(a) better way(s)". Doing it not "that" or "those" ways is not wrong. There is no right. There are just utilitarian criteria according to goals and what way of coordinating your body best helps you personally satisfy them.

[MM]

I figure I'll eat the bullet before someone else does. When you say "the correct way", I believe you mean "(a) better way(s)". Doing it not "that" or "those" ways is not wrong. There is no right. There are just utilitarian criteria according to goals and what way of coordinating your body best helps you personally satisfy them.

Hi Lee,

I would disagree with that concept of right/wrong. There is a right way and a wrong way. After 40 + years of the aikido world doing tori fune, it pretty much solidifies the notion that there is a correct way and an incorrect way to train. Otherwise, we'd have a whole lot of Ueshiba-level people in aikido. Now, just replace "aikido" with "taichi" and "Ueshiba" with a grandmaster level teacher in taichi and you pretty much have the same thing.

Ueshiba's torifune is ... interesting.

Ueshiba:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5802919258211657447

Starts around 3:40 and goes to around 4:02.

Notice how he changes from arms going upwards to another set where arms are more in front.

Notice Ueshiba's hands. Not just that they are in a fist, but look how they spiral from outward to when he has them at his sides.

Especially notice 3:54. Notice how his upper body is turned? Significantly.

Now, to compare:

Watch Terry Dobson. Notice his shoulders and his hands.

Or from this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ImL1ScuVq8

Are these people moving the same way that Ueshiba is moving?

So, if aiki is all internal and no one explains what you're supposed to do, then how are you to do the exercises correctly? You can only copy the form and hope that you can figure something out.

Even if someone explains how to do this exercise, there is a correct way to train aiki and an incorrect way to train aiki.

IMO anyway,
Mark

[Lee Salzman]

Hi Lee,

I would disagree with that concept of right/wrong. There is a right way and a wrong way. After 40 + years of the aikido world doing tori fune, it pretty much solidifies the notion that there is a correct way and an incorrect way to train. Otherwise, we'd have a whole lot of Ueshiba-level people in aikido. Now, just replace "aikido" with "taichi" and "Ueshiba" with a grandmaster level teacher in taichi and you pretty much have the same thing.


And if someone comes along who is better than Morihei Ueshiba? Who is better than his teacher? Who is better than your current teacher(s)? Does that make all those other people suddenly wrong, and the new guy alone right? What if the new guy can show you how wrong you are in some contexts, but not others? Does that mean now he is just wrong? Saying things are right and wrong does not make something objective, it makes it self-defeatingly subjective because no one will agree with you. You need a benchmark to measure performance, that allows people to determine for themselves if something is failing them and needs improvement in some way, otherwise it is just online dick measuring.

[MM]

And if someone comes along who is better than Morihei Ueshiba? Who is better than his teacher? Who is better than your current teacher(s)? Does that make all those other people suddenly wrong, and the new guy alone right? What if the new guy can show you how wrong you are in some contexts, but not others? Does that mean now he is just wrong? Saying things are right and wrong does not make something objective, it makes it self-defeatingly subjective because no one will agree with you. You need a benchmark to measure performance, that allows people to determine for themselves if something is failing them and needs improvement in some way, otherwise it is just online dick measuring.

Good questions, Lee. If we look at what these people said and trained, we find underlying commonalities. From Morihei Ueshiba talking about spirals to Hong Junshen talking about spirals. Martial arts themes of Heaven-Earth-Man that are found throughout history.

Even in Chen style taiji, we find that Chen Fake disagreed with other martial artists on how they "translated" the martial concepts and ideas.

Anyway, if you look at history, it's pretty clear and evident there is a correct way of training and an incorrect way of training.

Morihei Ueshiba trained for how many years and was seen as an outstanding martial artist? It wasn't 40 years. Now look at the entire aikido world, from every country, and tell me how many people have trained 30-40 years and are not at Ueshiba's skill level. Yet, they are doing the same techniques, the same warm ups, and some are doing the same spiritual training. Or at least they were told that they are.

Sokaku Takeda trained how many students that ended up being outstanding martial artists? We mostly know the popular ones of Sagawa, Horikawa, and Ueshiba. But, how about Yoshida, Sagawa's father, Hisa, Sue (his wife), not to mention Kimura, Okamoto, and others. What about Sagawa saying that near the end of his life he decided to teach his students the secrets and they started getting better?

Correct training and incorrect training. As someone recently brought to my attention in regards to the Chinese martial arts -- how many Grand Master level non-Chinese people are there? How many Grand Master level Chinese people are there?

On Rum Soaked Fist, someone posted a very remarkable story about how they were trained in a Chinese martial system separately from the rest of the group. He did different exercises and watched through a doorway as the rest of the group practiced forms. Literally an indoor disciple.

A lot of hard style iron shirt practitioners were taught to do exercises with tightness, hard muscle tautness, etc. And a lot of these practitioners had strokes and other medical problems. Chen Fake didn't do that kind of training but was regarded as being a very exceptional martial artist.

It isn't me that's saying what is correct or incorrect, but a whole lot of history that's stating it.


Edit: Okay, I'm way off topic. I'll stop there.

[asiawide]

I'm not an expert but a novice. But to share my experience..

1. Moving forward(and little bit down) from back leg hits your lower back. Then lower back contracts, chest pops, and finally your arms raise by not engaging shoulders. Of course, arms aren't raised in torifune. But without intention you can do so. If you combine these, one arm up/one arms doesn't move(or little bit down), it's tenchinage shape. Contrary moving backward makes arms down. This is for shomenuchi cutting down.

2. Some Japanese shihans do this with kiai. yi-ho or yi-sa.... Yi with breathing out and Ho with breating in. I guess this trains and stabilizes muscles around middle part.

3. On the 2nd linked video, you can see many people just rocking back and forth. That's very meaningless. -.-

[Chris Li]

And if someone comes along who is better than Morihei Ueshiba? Who is better than his teacher? Who is better than your current teacher(s)? Does that make all those other people suddenly wrong, and the new guy alone right? What if the new guy can show you how wrong you are in some contexts, but not others? Does that mean now he is just wrong? Saying things are right and wrong does not make something objective, it makes it self-defeatingly subjective because no one will agree with you. You need a benchmark to measure performance, that allows people to determine for themselves if something is failing them and needs improvement in some way, otherwise it is just online dick measuring.

"Better" and "different" are two separate things. More than one of Ueshiba's direct students said that it seemed as if he were doing something completely different than they were - and they were right on target.

If you have a specific goal - "Aiki", for example, then some things are just going to be wrong, once you set political correctness and universal self-esteem aside.

If you have a non-specific goal - that whatever anybody does that makes them happy is fine, for example, than maybe it's a little different.

A major problem is that Ueshiba, as concerns Aiki, was doing something extremely specific, but in modern Aikido it has become a non-specific sense of general self-fulfillment.

Best,

Chris

[mathewjgano]

I have to give the same disclaimer on IS as Phi...though I'm actually with less understanding I reckon, but I have some experience with Torifune undo which comes from Tsubaki Okami Yashiro.

One aspect that I think might be very important is the idea of bouncing ki off the ground. I've seen it done a couple different ways, but this "bouncing off the ground" always seemed present.
An important note: I've recently seen sensei Barrish do this a couple different ways (more like O Sensei's strong horizontal motion, than in the video I found on Youtube), so I think the form is less important than the feel, but here's my example to offer for consideration (starts at about half a minute in):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My9LLW3mJd0

[Lee Salzman]

"Better" and "different" are two separate things. More than one of Ueshiba's direct students said that it seemed as if he were doing something completely different than they were - and they were right on target.

If you have a specific goal - "Aiki", for example, then some things are just going to be wrong, once you set political correctness and universal self-esteem aside.

If you have a non-specific goal - that whatever anybody does that makes them happy is fine, for example, than maybe it's a little different.

A major problem is that Ueshiba, as concerns Aiki, was doing something extremely specific, but in modern Aikido it has become a non-specific sense of general self-fulfillment.

Best,

Chris

Well, how do we empirically measure what is a wrong torifune? Or, worse, what if I am only doing it half-right, how do I know what I need to change to do it completely right? I am just asking for a description of a direct way to feel by contrast within my body the two opposite states of wrong torifune and right torifune, so that I can work from one to the other and gauge my progress. Surely there must be a better way than trying to just film yourself and ensure you look adequately like Morihei Ueshiba's way of moving.

[Chris Li]

Well, how do we empirically measure what is a wrong torifune? Or, worse, what if I am only doing it half-right, how do I know what I need to change to do it completely right? I am just asking for a description of a direct way to feel by contrast within my body the two opposite states of wrong torifune and right torifune, so that I can work from one to the other and gauge my progress. Surely there must be a better way than trying to just film yourself and ensure you look adequately like Morihei Ueshiba's way of moving.

Sure there is - get with somebody who knows what they're doing.

Best,

Chris

[Lee Salzman]

Sure there is - get with somebody who knows what they're doing.

Best,

Chris

Well, what if I encountered several somebodies, and their various frameworks were self-consistent, but not the same, maybe even contradictory on some aspects? How do I choose who is more right? And that question is not even a hypothetical for me, since that is really my situation.

[phitruong]

Well, what if I encountered several somebodies, and their various frameworks were self-consistent, but not the same, maybe even contradictory on some aspects? How do I choose who is more right? And that question is not even a hypothetical for me, since that is really my situation.

try this one? http://denner.org/reinhard/neijia/peng/teacherTest.html

[Lee Salzman]

try this one? http://denner.org/reinhard/neijia/peng/teacherTest.html

What if they all passed, who is the passiest? :D

[chillzATL]

Well, what if I encountered several somebodies, and their various frameworks were self-consistent, but not the same, maybe even contradictory on some aspects? How do I choose who is more right? And that question is not even a hypothetical for me, since that is really my situation.

explain the contradictions. I've felt two people with completely different backgrounds and methods and am working on meeting the third. The core of what the first two were doing was, despite the different terminology and approach, largely the same and I'm confident that this will remain the case when I meet that third person. The core skills are the same, though I accept that this is not immediately obvious.

[Chris Li]

Well, what if I encountered several somebodies, and their various frameworks were self-consistent, but not the same, maybe even contradictory on some aspects? How do I choose who is more right? And that question is not even a hypothetical for me, since that is really my situation.

If they really know what they're doing than they ought not to be contradictory. That doesn't mean that they'll all be the same - different things happen for different situations, but at heart the physics is all (and must be) the same.

Best,

Chris

[Rev.K. Barrish]

AME-NO-TORIFUNE-NO-GYO

Sometimes called Fune-kogi-undo. Ame-no-torifune is one of the Misogi Jumbi Taiso or exercises to prepare the mind/ body/ spirit for the activity of Misogi Shuho (purification in free flowing water). Ame no torifune no gyo is also commonly used as the Aiki jumbi taiso.

Torifune (Bird Rowing)

1. Stand straight and put your left leg forward

2. Clench both fists with your thumbs inside

3. Lean forward and move your arms as though rowing a boat starting from your left knee and ending near your *armpits. As you "row," shout "Yie".

4. Perform this 20 times and then repeat Furitama

5. Changing to a right leg stance, repeat the Torifune shouting "Ei" and "Ho" alternately. Do this 20 times and then repeat Furitama

6. Return to the left foot forward stance and remake the clenched fists as before and bring the hands up to the chest to a shout of "Yie" and thrust them down and forward with hands opened and fingers extended to a shout of "Se" After this, once again repeat the Furitama

The Object of Torifune-no-gyo

The basic purpose is to introduce a dimension of physical calisthenics along with the spiritual. Since misogi and also Aiki Keiko are psycho-physical experiences, both types of preperatory exercises are necessary. " Torifune-no-gyo (done properly) is very grounding and invigorating. The kiai organizes the hara… centripetality/contraction and centrifugality existing simultaneously while grounding relates very directly to the organization we want to manifest during Aiki waza.

TAMA FURI/ Furitama-no-Gyo

Tama (soul) Furi (shake) basic meaning is the self Chin-kon and relates directly to the furube-no-kamu-waza of Chinkon Saho.

Furitama ( Soul Shaking)

1. Stand with your legs apart about shoulder width .

2. Place your hands together with the right hand over the left. Leave space between them big enough for an imaginary ping pong ball.

3. Place your hands in that position in front of your stomach and 0shake them vigorously up and down.

4. While shaking them concentrate and repeat the words: Harae-do-no-Okami - an invocation to the kami of the place of harai.

The Object Furitama-no-gyo

The purpose of shaking the soul is to generate awareness of it within yourself. Kon, (the soul), in Shinto, is one of the four important elements along with Mei (life), Rei (spirit) and Ki (which means Spirit in its causal aspect - Ki is a kind of energy source). Kon is the most important of the four since human beings can also be described as Waketama (separated individual souls), which is another way of saying "children of the kami".

Chinkon kanji can also be read as Mitama Shizume..the basic meanings are:

1) to reintegrate the elements of self/soul into the current moment

2) to quiet or pacify the soul

3) to invigorate the soul

4) The kanji of Chin-kon can also be read Sho Kon and carry the nuance of pacifying and assisting the raising of vibration for the Mitama of a person who has left this life

Tama-furi aims at the reception of strong spiritual waves/higher spirit/ refined vibration.

The aim of activities of Shinto Gyo (tuning practices) Misogi Harai (self purification) is to quiet and reinvigorate the very soul these activities can be called

1) misogi harai

2) mitama-furi

3) tama-furi

4) mitama shizume

5) chin-kon

all these are written with the same kanji these activities relate directly to the function of I-buki-do-nushi-no-Ou kami who is one of the Harae-do-no-Ou-kami and deals directly with purification by out breath.

[Lee Salzman]

explain the contradictions. I've felt two people with completely different backgrounds and methods and am working on meeting the third. The core of what the first two were doing was, despite the different terminology and approach, largely the same and I'm confident that this will remain the case when I meet that third person. The core skills are the same, though I accept that this is not immediately obvious.

If they really know what they're doing than they ought not to be contradictory. That doesn't mean that they'll all be the same - different things happen for different situations, but at heart the physics is all (and must be) the same.

Best,

Chris

Keep in mind I said "maybe", I'm not trying to lay out absolutes. :D But there are big and little things that could be at odds, or focused differently. In some cases there are easy to spot commonalities, in others it requires considerable leaps of imagination to connect dots if they even there to be connected due to vast gulfs in how material is presented and trained. But some issues I could think of that I might expect all of them to answer differently:

Are internal and external different and separate, or is the distinction of of little worth and everything can be broken down to discernible athletic qualities? The mind is the end-state, or is it only a training tool and a crutch that must be erased lest it become a liability? The arms, just along for the ride, or going around an axis, or on the axis, or all of the above depending on taste? Organize pathways statically, or according to movement goals? Is it a dantien or is it a spine? Do you try to go in all directions at once, or do you merely have the ability to go in any direction at any time for any reason? Is awareness continuous or is it reactive? Do you wind or spiral for the sake of winding, or are they only valuable as a component of bringing the body into line and a structural fault if taken too far? Breathing - supplement, complement, or just a tiny extra? Tension - necessary to understand spectrum of relaxation and force or just heresy? Explosiveness - funny spiral movement, mental projection, or inherent quality of all movement? Movement - starting point or the end point? Stillness - everything or overrated?

Probably a lot more issues they'd take different sides on, at least based on my understanding. I don't think they'd approach torifune or things like it the same way or for the same reasons...

[HL1978]

What if they all passed, who is the passiest? :D

The one that doesn't hold back information, has the best way of transferring knowledge and is the most available?

[Chris Li]

Keep in mind I said "maybe", I'm not trying to lay out absolutes. :D But there are big and little things that could be at odds, or focused differently. In some cases there are easy to spot commonalities, in others it requires considerable leaps of imagination to connect dots if they even there to be connected due to vast gulfs in how material is presented and trained. But some issues I could think of that I might expect all of them to answer differently:

Can't say, since we don't know who you're talking about, and in what context they're talking. I will say, however, that if they can't explain what the differences are and why in a way that's understandable then they're probably not good enough. That doesn't mean you can't learn anything from them - just that you ought to take it with a grain of salt.

Best,

Chris

[phitruong]

TAMA FURI/ Furitama-no-Gyo

Tama (soul) Furi (shake) basic meaning is the self Chin-kon and relates directly to the furube-no-kamu-waza of Chinkon Saho.

Furitama ( Soul Shaking)

1. Stand with your legs apart about shoulder width .

2. Place your hands together with the right hand over the left. Leave space between them big enough for an imaginary ping pong ball.

3. Place your hands in that position in front of your stomach and 0shake them vigorously up and down.

4. While shaking them concentrate and repeat the words: Harae-do-no-Okami - an invocation to the kami of the place of harai.

.

#2, right over left? i was taught by Saotome sensei that it was left over right. he mentioned something about left is heaven and right is earth. also he said to shake from the inside not the hands. lets see if i can repeat his japonglish "hands no shake. move inside! (as he pointed to his hara)" just like Ikeda sensei usually said "move your inside", i.e. flipping your kidneys around :D
Saotome sensei also pushed my chest to see if i stay centered as well as place his hand beneath my hands and tried to lift me up to make sure my arms weren't collapsing or rigid. he also told a story about O Sensei made him do this thing, then went away for awhile. Saotome sensei would get bored and weren't paying attention to the exercise. O Sensei came back and yelled at him for not doing it right and corrected him. also, Saotome sensei didn't make us chant; otherwise, we would have been chanting: 99 bottle beers on the wall..... :)

anyway, right over left or left over right, methink, wasn't the real part. it's the "move inside", that's the real thing.

*standard disclaimer of IS idiots again*

[Rev.K. Barrish]

Hello Mr. Truong,

As for the Furitama....in the original Jinja Shinto exercise, during Jumbi Taiso it is generally right over left with the exception of the time of the "Furube-no-kamu-waza" of the formal Chinkon Saho....interestingly enough what I believe Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei where alluding to regarding move your insides is quite esoteric Shinto practice..in ancient times the general thinking was that ones Mitama/ soul could easily rather become dislodged from the body. This thinking is the origin of many aspects of the practice of Chinkon Meditation. The origin of Mitamafuri or Furitama had to do with the shaking of the Kannadakara while repeating the Hi-fu-Mi norito/ a mantra of counting from 1 to 10 in order to recall a wandering Mitama. This is also the thinking behind Tamamusubi or the tying of 10 knots into a piece of string as well as the practice of shaking a box containing the clothing of an ill person 10 times in order to seat the soul more firmly in the body/ hara. The moving of the " insides" refers to consciously moving the center through a series of circles of 10---- vertically, to the left, to the right, on the centerline anti-clockwise, clockwise, horizontally to the left, horizontally to the right and again vertically. This type of "spiritual calisthenic" is the basic of Chinkon's Furube-no-kamu-waza...it is really very great that Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei are transmitting the heart of this important practice.....

FURITAMA:

re: Furitama ( Soul Shaking)

1. Stand with your legs apart about shoulder width .

2. Place your hands together with the right hand over the left. Leave space
between them big enough for an imaginary ping pong ball.

3. Place your hands in that position in front of your stomach and shake
them vigorously up and down.

4. While shaking them concentrate and repeat the words: Harae-do-no-Okami -
an invocation to the kami of the place of harai.

The Object of Furitama

The purpose of shaking the soul is to generate awareness of it within
yourself. Kon, (the soul), in Shinto, is one of the four important elements
along with Mei (life), Rei (spirit) and Ki (which means Spirit in its causal
aspect - Ki is a kind of energy source). Kon is the most important of the
four since human beings can also be described as Waketama (separated
individual souls), which is another way of saying "children of the kami".

As for the practice of Furitama, sometimes called Mitamafuri....lit. to shake the soul.... this is a really very important exercise..through Kaiso/ the Aikido founder it is true that many people in various Aiki traditions practise, but often without understanding. The origins of the movements are:

1) from Furube no Kamu waza of Chinkon Saho = the movements of Shinto active meditation

2) Misogi Shuho Jumbi Taiso = exercises such as Ame-no-torifune and furitama come from the movements used to activate the mind/spirit/body for ritual purification in moving water.

Chinkon is also called mitamashizume or mitamafuri. Mitamashizume means to pacify the spirit and settle it in the center of the body. Mitamafuri means to reinvigorate the withered soul by shaking a ritual object or the human body. It also means beckoning a spirit into the body.

Misogi (purification) and chinkon are the two most important practices of Shinto. We practice misogi to cleanse our body and mind of obscuring KI and to create the opening for the fresh new Ki and possibilities, and then practice chinkon to calm/ integrate the spirit and to connect to the divine world. Every morning as part of Chouhai/ morning prayer we practice chinkon. Here at Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America we also practice Chinkon after each Aiki Keiko and very formally each Saturday morning.

...........during Furitama while standing, an important note is that it is advisable to raise up onto the balls of your feet and extend KI downward through your foot chakras and receive the echo of that extension through the same channel.

...and yes the "move inside" is exactly the real thing...................

[Carsten Möllering]

Thank you very much for your comments and answers!!!
I'm learning a lot!

One furhter question:

First I learned torifune with opening-and-closing the fists.
I then learned it with closed fists, thumbs outside.
I finally was taught to do it with closed fists thumbs inside. (Which I find in the explanations of Rev. Barrish.)

But I experience it "difficult" to do torifune this way when "adding" dantian rotation. It feels like the dantian rotation "pushes" the thumbs out of the fists. Or if there is a "contradiction".
I also experience it "difficult" when using dantian rotation to not also rotate my arms/fists around their axes. (Like Ueshiba does in the video.)

Thoughts (or experiences)?

...
anyway, right over left or left over right, methink, wasn't the real part. it's the "move inside", that's the real thing.
My aikido teacher is also teacher of a koryu. And when he teaches something of the "esoteric stuff", it is always important whether right or left do ... whatever they do.
In most cases you can immediatly feel the difference. And very often what he teaches is different from what I was used to up to then.

[chillzATL]

Keep in mind I said "maybe", I'm not trying to lay out absolutes. :D But there are big and little things that could be at odds, or focused differently. In some cases there are easy to spot commonalities, in others it requires considerable leaps of imagination to connect dots if they even there to be connected due to vast gulfs in how material is presented and trained. But some issues I could think of that I might expect all of them to answer differently:

Are internal and external different and separate, or is the distinction of of little worth and everything can be broken down to discernible athletic qualities? The mind is the end-state, or is it only a training tool and a crutch that must be erased lest it become a liability? The arms, just along for the ride, or going around an axis, or on the axis, or all of the above depending on taste? Organize pathways statically, or according to movement goals? Is it a dantien or is it a spine? Do you try to go in all directions at once, or do you merely have the ability to go in any direction at any time for any reason? Is awareness continuous or is it reactive? Do you wind or spiral for the sake of winding, or are they only valuable as a component of bringing the body into line and a structural fault if taken too far? Breathing - supplement, complement, or just a tiny extra? Tension - necessary to understand spectrum of relaxation and force or just heresy? Explosiveness - funny spiral movement, mental projection, or inherent quality of all movement? Movement - starting point or the end point? Stillness - everything or overrated?

Probably a lot more issues they'd take different sides on, at least based on my understanding. I don't think they'd approach torifune or things like it the same way or for the same reasons...

I think most of the differences you talk about are about approach and not about the core skills. I agree that trying to think about these things in that way can be confusing, but if you try to break everything down to how it relates to the core skills it makes things so much easier to digest. In the end, regardless of the approach used, if you're working on improving the same core skills you can take what you're doing in any direction, any approach, with minimal time spent retooling. The hardest part of that retooling is likely on the ego and not so much of a physical deficiency.

Obviously I didn't drill down into the things you listed, but if you want to discuss those things in more depth, start a new thread and lets give it a go.

[phitruong]

But I experience it "difficult" to do torifune this way when "adding" dantian rotation. It feels like the dantian rotation "pushes" the thumbs out of the fists. Or if there is a "contradiction".
I also experience it "difficult" when using dantian rotation to not also rotate my arms/fists around their axes. (Like Ueshiba does in the video.)
.

i used the aiki-age-sage (the begin of aikisage is aikiage) and aiki-sage-age approaches from the roppokai for the hands (not really the hands, as the hands express the internal things in your body - it's one of those power from the legs, control by the middle and express to the arms/hands thingy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vd79tV6mCs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM&feature=related

i believed Sigman's folks called this winding/unwinding; Dan's folks, spirals; others, take the slack out of your body and the other bugger's body; and phi's folks (which only included phi and his many other personalities) how to make this crap work like magic so we can go carousing.

it's just me. i added stuffs that i interested me, just for fun. YMMV. :)

*you know the usual disclaimer so i won't mention it here*

[Upyu]

<snip> which, in the long run, he's moving with his feet.
Disagree with that, you'd ground through the feet, but the movement would be initiated from the hara/koshi

[Walter Martindale]

Disagree with that, you'd ground through the feet, but the movement would be initiated from the hara/koshi

Ok... thing is it's all connected.

It really all starts in the cerebral cortex with the intent to move, travels down the neurons (is it the pyramidal tracts?) to the biggest muscles first, and travels outwards to the smaller muscles. Any more detail than that and I'm out of my depth. core musculature acts to transmit the work done by the big muscles in the lower body to the limbs. Essentially, it's all connected...

However - the fellow moving the boat in the movie is doing real cormorant boat rowing, with a real boat. I wonder what would happen if we actually learned how to do the movement with a boat, rather than some imaginary (or real) person holding our wrists, and then moving to people. that's if you want realistic training...

W

[Dave de Vos]

...However - the fellow moving the boat in the movie is doing real cormorant boat rowing, with a real boat. I wonder what would happen if we actually learned how to do the movement with a boat, rather than some imaginary (or real) person holding our wrists, and then moving to people. that's if you want realistic training...

W

I understand that you as a rowing coach know what realistic rowing training is. But does the aikido rowing exercise have anything to do with exercises for rowing (other than looking like rowing)?

[Andrew S]

Just to throw some confusion in there...
A few weeks back I was watching some light entertainment on TV. One of the "contestants" on the program wanted a mental edge on her competitors, so she went off to do some takigyo (meditation under a waterfall)
I had always assumed this was a Zen practice or Buddhist practice, but she did it under the guidance of a Shinto priest.

Prior to hitting the water, the priest started singing some kind of hymn. As he was singing, he rapidly shifted his weight forwards and backwards, thrusting his hands out on the forward movement, bringing them back to his tanden on the backward movement...
funakogi or torifune!

Was this Ueshiba's source - misogi?

[Upyu]

Ok... thing is it's all connected.

It really all starts in the cerebral cortex with the intent to move, travels down the neurons (is it the pyramidal tracts?) to the biggest muscles first, and travels outwards to the smaller muscles. Any more detail than that and I'm out of my depth. core musculature acts to transmit the work done by the big muscles in the lower body to the limbs. Essentially, it's all connected...

However - the fellow moving the boat in the movie is doing real cormorant boat rowing, with a real boat. I wonder what would happen if we actually learned how to do the movement with a boat, rather than some imaginary (or real) person holding our wrists, and then moving to people. that's if you want realistic training...

W
There's a big difference in having the core initiate as opposes to the legs initiating. Otherwise, a squat could be touted as being "IS" because it's a "whole body" exercise. There's a no so subtle difference.
Rowing and squatting can be modded to be done in an IS fashion, but you have to know "how"

[Walter Martindale]

I understand that you as a rowing coach know what realistic rowing training is. But does the aikido rowing exercise have anything to do with exercises for rowing (other than looking like rowing)?

The rowing I coach doesn't bear any physical resemblance to the funakogi exercise. It's a movement pattern from moving an entirely different kind of boat that's used in aikido.

If there's anything from rowing a racing shell that's going to help in Aikido it's the strength, conditioning, balance, core stability and some possible intangibles that I'm not smart enough to discuss. A training session in rowing requires up to 2 hours of doing what is equivalent to a power clean with anywhere between 20 and 80 kg (depending on the phase of the workout and the power of the athlete) between 18 and 40 times a minute while sitting on a round-bottomed boat, working either by oneself or with a bunch of other people. Does it translate directly into anything at all to do with Aikido? Hard to say. If a trained rower learned aikido, or if an aikido person was also training in rowing, I suspect that the base conditioning from the rowing would transfer to being able to do a very long, very hard Aikido workout without really suffering too much (after a few weeks of conditioning up the musculature that's active in ukemi etc.)

However - sport rowing doesn't at all resemble funakogi undo. I keep getting told not to use strength when I'm trying to be gentle and not forceful - yet I've had a couple of shihan say they like the way I work (the late Kawahara and another)...

Oh well - my opinion counts for pretty much stuff all in these fora because I tend to try to answer from sports science, coaching and athletic training perspectives rather than traditional 'aiki' or unmeasureable 'IS' sorts of concepts...

sigh.
W

[Ellis Amdur]

Walter Martindale asked:
Was this Ueshiba's source - misogi?

Yes - HIPS 203-206 (BUT)

That isn't to say (I don't know) if that specific exercise was not present in Daito-ryu at that time (a high ranking guy in the Kodokai told me that they use it now, but there's no particular account that I know of that describes Takeda Sokaku of doing it - in fact, the DR guy speculated it was incorporated from aikido, an example of what the Japanese call gyaku-ryunyu - reverse importation).

Remember, Takeda trained briefly as a Shinto priest (his father made him), and the Misogi no Gyo, which was a compilation of various core Shinto (and Chinese derived) training exercises, was popular throughout Japan. Ueshiba first encountered it at a specialized training put on by the Misogikai at a Shinto shrine. It's my opinion that this enabled him to:
a. Have a training system that helped put some distance from Omotokyo orthodoxy (there's an oxymoron).
b. Had a set of training exercises into which he could put DR, while being able to present them as his own. I don't mean that he was being dishonest, any more than BJJ is not judo. He separated himself from the group, and in one sense, it's a mark of respect that when one makes one's own group, one shouldn't just carbon copy the training regimen of the group one left.

In sum, torifune very definitely comes from Misogi-no-Gyo - and possibly, Ueshiba found in torifune an exercise he had already learned.

And lest the usual squawking starts - I didn't say that Ueshiba learned in the Misogi-no-gyo "internal training" apart from that in DR. I doubt that he did, fwiw. I'm talking about the bottle, not the wine.

Ellis Amdur

[Lee Salzman]

There's a big difference in having the core initiate as opposes to the legs initiating. Otherwise, a squat could be touted as being "IS" because it's a "whole body" exercise. There's a no so subtle difference.
Rowing and squatting can be modded to be done in an IS fashion, but you have to know "how"

And what if every joint in the body initiates simultaneously? Is that not internal because the legs and the trunk both shared the responsibility, rather than doing everything with the trunk?

[Dazzler]

i used the aiki-age-sage (the begin of aikisage is aikiage) and aiki-sage-age approaches from the roppokai for the hands (not really the hands, as the hands express the internal things in your body - it's one of those power from the legs, control by the middle and express to the arms/hands thingy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vd79tV6mCs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM&feature=related

i believed Sigman's folks called this winding/unwinding; Dan's folks, spirals; others, take the slack out of your body and the other bugger's body; and phi's folks (which only included phi and his many other personalities) how to make this crap work like magic so we can go carousing.

it's just me. i added stuffs that i interested me, just for fun. YMMV. :)

*you know the usual disclaimer so i won't mention it here*

Phi - you need to try harder with the jokes otherwise people will notice that you do know what you are talking about. You wouldn't want that now would you?

Where you say 'taking the slack out' Dan might say Open...(and then Close with the retraction). Great stuff...when is your first carousing seminar? I think I'd like that one.

[Walter Martindale]

Walter Martindale asked:

(snip)
Ellis Amdur

Um. You sure it was me asking? I don't very often discuss misogi.. is miso-gi a soup made of gi, or is it a gi that's been cleansed in miso? ;)
W

[gregstec]

How about another prospective -

Absorb in (yin) down to the feet thru the dantein and project out (yang) from feet up thru the dantien while internally paying attention to the opening and closing of the associated joints along the path with intent.

Greg

[bob_stra]

However - sport rowing doesn't at all resemble funakogi undo.
W

Depends on where the boat is from, I guess :)

http://www.shallowwatersailor.us/swsmanual/seamanship/1Scullings.jpg



EDIT: My bad; I see this type of boat has been mentioned

[phitruong]

Phi - you need to try harder with the jokes otherwise people will notice that you do know what you are talking about. You wouldn't want that now would you?

Where you say 'taking the slack out' Dan might say Open...(and then Close with the retraction). Great stuff...when is your first carousing seminar? I think I'd like that one.

Daren, thanks for remind me of what important. it won't do if folks start to believe in what i wrote. that would really messed up my reputation as the aikiweb court jester.

if the other bugger Opens, you have to Close. if he/she Closes, you Open. if he reaches for your sushi, you Slap his hand with the chopstick. if he in yo ho, you got to kick him out of your house. :D

i thought all the seminars are for carousing. you meant i have been doing aikido seminar? you meant i have been paying good money to dance with a bunch of sweaty guys in skirts? you meant i have been doing rowing the boat with a bunch of unattractive guys? that is just so wrong! :eek:

[phitruong]

Depends on where the boat is from, I guess :)

http://www.shallowwatersailor.us/swsmanual/seamanship/1Scullings.jpg

EDIT: My bad; I see this type of boat has been mentioned

that kind of boat rowing isn't sporting. this is http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d94/kjmlsm/travel/2005Vietnam/MuiNeRoundBoat.jpg

put some tourist on one of those, and you have a good laugh. :)

[Ellis Amdur]

Um. You sure it was me asking? I don't very often discuss misogi.. is miso-gi a soup made of gi, or is it a gi that's been cleansed in miso?
W

Sorry Walter Martindale. It was Andrew Smallcoombe. They are spelled almost exactly the same.

Ellis AMdur

[Janet Rosen]

Where you say 'taking the slack out' Dan might say Open...(and then Close with the retraction). Great stuff...when is your first carousing seminar? I think I'd like that one.

And I might say "we can ALWAYS take the slacks out, we can hem them too" :D

[bob_stra]

Here's a video of traditional japanese boat-rowing (AFAIK).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8MFCfGPnM

Perhaps a cross-comparison with torifune could be fruitful? Would someone like to take a crack at that?

[chillzATL]

Here's a video of traditional japanese boat-rowing (AFAIK).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8MFCfGPnM

Perhaps a cross-comparison with torifune could be fruitful? Would someone like to take a crack at that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl0to-Z8Tgk&feature=related

another

seems like the kind of thing you'd have to develop a fairly integrated way of moving to do all day long.

[MM]

I think that perhaps the very best comparison that can be made is this:

Hundreds of people who have rowed boats in this manner (as the recent videos have shown) and have equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Then, perhaps compare the hundreds, or more, of spiritual people who have done torifune and equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that aiki "completes" religions. Note that it isn't the other way around.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that he was a man of budo and not a religious man.

So, then when you find 0 people in the former categories and 6-10 people from Takeda's category, perhaps a closer look at aiki as an internal method to remake the body is warranted? Perhaps it really isn't the actual act of torifune that gave Ueshiba his skills and abilities, but rather that Ueshiba's aiki exercises "completed" torifune ... torifune was the vehicle for which Ueshiba used to practice and get better at aiki skills. Just as he did with farming. With chanting. With swinging a jo around.

Course, if someone wanted to spend 40 years rowing a boat to get aiki, that's their choice. Almost like spending 40 years doing torifune ... or 40 years doing techniques ... What was it Einstein said about insanity?

[gregstec]

Just an observation about the last two rowing vids - in both those vids, the person is pushing with yin and pulling with the yang parts of the body - yin is on the palm side of arms and front of the body with yang being on the back and top outside part of the arms - look at Ueshiba's fune kogi and you will notice that it is reversed - he pushes out with yang and is pulling in with the yin - another way to look at it is to look at what part of the body they are leading with - pushing out with palms out with fingers up is yin out and pushing out with back of hands out with fingers down is yang out.

Greg

[mathewjgano]

I think that perhaps the very best comparison that can be made is this:

Hundreds of people who have rowed boats in this manner (as the recent videos have shown) and have equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Then, perhaps compare the hundreds, or more, of spiritual people who have done torifune and equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that aiki "completes" religions. Note that it isn't the other way around.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that he was a man of budo and not a religious man.

So, then when you find 0 people in the former categories and 6-10 people from Takeda's category, perhaps a closer look at aiki as an internal method to remake the body is warranted? Perhaps it really isn't the actual act of torifune that gave Ueshiba his skills and abilities, but rather that Ueshiba's aiki exercises "completed" torifune ... torifune was the vehicle for which Ueshiba used to practice and get better at aiki skills. Just as he did with farming. With chanting. With swinging a jo around.

Course, if someone wanted to spend 40 years rowing a boat to get aiki, that's their choice. Almost like spending 40 years doing torifune ... or 40 years doing techniques ... What was it Einstein said about insanity?

Of course I can't speak for anyone else, but this seems a little obvious. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not rowing a boat gives people IS (I haven't seen that said yet, at any rate), it's a question of how might one begin to approach IS through this rowing exercise. The best way is to practice with people who have IS and apply that learning to the exercise. Given that understanding, what might the exercise lend itself to? How do people approach the exercie?
I rather like Greg's remarks about pushing with the "yang" part of he body instead of the "yin." I think I can see what he's describing.

[Walter Martindale]

Sorry Walter Martindale. It was Andrew Smallcoombe. They are spelled almost exactly the same.

Ellis AMdur

No worries. I only get really cranky when people reprint my work without properly citing it...
It's happened...
W

[HL1978]

Given that understanding, what might the exercise lend itself to? How do people approach the exercie?
I rather like Greg's remarks about pushing with the "yang" part of he body instead of the "yin." I think I can see what he's describing.

That just sounds naughty.

[Andrew S]

Sorry Walter Martindale. It was Andrew Smallcoombe. They are spelled almost exactly the same.

Ellis AMdur

And Smallacoombe and Smallacombe are even closer.
(Aparently variations of the same - much like Amdur and AMdur?:D

But thanks for the info - I was wondering about the link between a Shinto exercise and an aikido training method.
I like funakogi for its development of balance. I've seen Y. Kobayashi Sensei demonstrate it to good effect.