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graham christian
10-18-2011, 12:36 PM
Thought I'd post a thread to counter the 'other' one. In fact the title should be held as a set mantra for all Aikidoka.

Being in essence a spiritual discipline of universal harmony, following such principles of absolute non-resistance it is ultimately unfightable.

The hidden attraction is spiritual, the final understanding is spiritual. The basic tenets are of there are no opponents in true Aikido.

So on the subject itself there can be no fighting at all in Aikido.

Mark Freeman
10-18-2011, 12:51 PM
Hi Graham,

there is no way that this one is going to reach its 11th birthday like the other one!:p

I like your proposition, it is what my teacher has been saying for as long as I've known him.

good luck with this one,;)

regards,

Mark

graham christian
10-18-2011, 01:22 PM
Hi Mark.
You're probably right. But there again it should only take 11 seconds to recognise this.(I relly must meet your teacher one day)

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
10-18-2011, 02:10 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14440

graham christian
10-18-2011, 02:58 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14440

Ahh, Grasshopper... So Mary, after three years do you notice any change?

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
10-18-2011, 04:14 PM
Yes...if you mean on Aikiweb...there is much less talk about Aikido. Almost all threads are hijacked now instead of most of the threads.

Richard Stevens
10-18-2011, 04:40 PM
I think we should discuss this topic form an internal power/skills/synergy/chi/aiki perspective...

graham christian
10-18-2011, 04:43 PM
So there's more fighting. Shame. You must admit though you don't have to go on long journeys to get a taste of others Aikido. You get some graphic descriptions. Who needs hands on?

Regards.G.

phitruong
10-19-2011, 07:27 AM
we, of the lower, unenlightened and unrepentant life forms, still enjoyed a good fight and found that fighting worked great in aikido. in our delusional mind, we are undefeated and have no equal; thus, we have no opponents, since we have defeated them all. kinda like the Musashi complex, i have no equal; thus no opponent, thus no need to fight. :)

graham christian
10-19-2011, 08:14 AM
we, of the lower, unenlightened and unrepentant life forms, still enjoyed a good fight and found that fighting worked great in aikido. in our delusional mind, we are undefeated and have no equal; thus, we have no opponents, since we have defeated them all. kinda like the Musashi complex, i have no equal; thus no opponent, thus no need to fight. :)

I think Musashi was defeated a number of times.......

John A Butz
10-19-2011, 08:21 AM
I think Musashi was defeated a number of times.......

Perhaps in training matches (no one wins all the time) or in war - he was on the losing side in at least one battle.

However, in 60 duels, he never lost.

graham christian
10-19-2011, 08:30 AM
Perhaps in training matches (no one wins all the time) or in war - he was on the losing side in at least one battle.

However, in 60 duels, he never lost.

Indeed. That shows great courage and skill. However that wasn't Aikido. Secondly you could say from a spiritual perspective every win was a lose. Thirdly there was a certain charachter in the book who was sent out to capture him a few times, without fail I might add. Funny how no one talks about him.....

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
10-19-2011, 09:00 AM
we, of the lower, unenlightened and unrepentant life forms, still enjoyed a good fight and found that fighting worked great in aikido. in our delusional mind, we are undefeated and have no equal; thus, we have no opponents, since we have defeated them all. kinda like the Musashi complex, i have no equal; thus no opponent, thus no need to fight. :)

Phi. I think you would be so fun to train with...if you are ever in the Berkshires be sure to stop by...

lbb
10-19-2011, 09:10 AM
Perhaps in training matches (no one wins all the time) or in war - he was on the losing side in at least one battle.

However, in 60 duels, he never lost.

There are stories that say otherwise (ref. Muso Gonnosuke).

John A Butz
10-19-2011, 09:36 AM
There are stories that say otherwise (ref. Muso Gonnosuke).

That was a training bout, by all accounts, and not a duel. I will grant that my info could be wrong - I am an amatuer scholar of these things at best, a dilletant at worst.

As far as I am aware, there is no record of the second bout, when Gonnosuke returned and used the jo againt him. SMR lore indicates he won that match, but SMR is biased in Gonnosuke's favor, for obvious reasons.

lbb
10-19-2011, 09:39 AM
we, of the lower, unenlightened and unrepentant life forms, still enjoyed a good fight and found that fighting worked great in aikido. in our delusional mind, we are undefeated and have no equal; thus, we have no opponents, since we have defeated them all. kinda like the Musashi complex, i have no equal; thus no opponent, thus no need to fight. :)

Thanks for the giggle, Phi. Back in the days of rec.martial-arts, we used to boast that we were undefeated in all of Asia. And, in fact, I still have never lost a match in Asia.

To try to address the topic seriously, I think it all hinges on what you mean by "fighting", "work", and of course "aikido". Different (but still reasonable) definitions of those three terms would give us answers ranging from "Hell no" to "Hell yeah", with a whole lot of "Maybe" and "Sorta" in between, and that's before we even get into the insane humpty-dumptying in which this forum excels. I guess for me, the phrase "in aikido" is a bit of a sticking point -- I understand that OP used this construction to mimic the topic of the other thread, but what's "in aikido"? Somewhere where the laws of aikido prevail? The only place I can think where that always happens is in a dojo, in well-regulated practice where people are kept from going off the aikido reservation. As with anything else, if you start by dictating the terms, of course you control the argument and its outcome. If you define "aikido", then you get to say who is and isn't in the club; if you get to dictate your conditions as "in aikido", it's really no different than a sparring match in which punches to the head are not allowed. Anyone can hypothesize a reality in which certain things are fact...but it's a stretch to say that because you can imagine such a situation, that it applies to the big wide world.

Another disconnected thought on the subject: sometimes, when he's working with someone and their technique breaks down (as uke or nage), he'll say "Now we're just wrestling" or "Now we're just grappling". He doesn't say that to disparage wrestling or grappling -- he says it to point out that when you go there, you've changed the rules of the game and given up a tool that you know somewhat (aikido) in favor of one that you may not know at all. What he's not saying is that wrestling, or grappling, or fighting, can't work against someone using aikido. Size, speed, experience in fighting, willingness to take a hit, competence at whatever it is you're doing -- all of these are factors in your favor, and there is no magic "whatever it is", aikido or anything else, that provides some kind of a magic bulletproof vest such that someone doing whatever-it-is is invulnerable to someone who is "fighting".

The response to that, of course, is that if you can be overcome by someone who's fighting, you're not doing aikido. Like all proofs by definition, it is an invalid statement.

graham christian
10-19-2011, 01:13 PM
An argument is the resultant verbal fight caused by the clashing of two minds. The zen Master for example would be untroubled by someones anger or attempt to argue. Thus no fight. Thus any fight by another is immaterial to him and easily faced. In the zen mind there is no fight, there cannot be.

However, the zen Master may act suddenly and without warning when he sees the opening and with one word possibly change that persons life. Fighting to him is merely the act of a lost soul.

He is merely a guide towards enlightenment.

Regards.G.

stan baker
10-19-2011, 06:34 PM
The Zen Master is just a product of your imagination

zenmaster

mathewjgano
10-19-2011, 08:08 PM
Thus any fight by another is immaterial to him and easily faced. In the zen mind there is no fight, there cannot be.

Easily faced, though not always easily surmounted (in my experence at least). I agree it helps dramatically to be unfettered by fear and uncertainty, but another side of that is the usefulness for familiarity with the Fight, which is where concepts like competition (not "point-scoring") come in. I used to describe the absolute weakness of competitive mindsets until I began to see a distinction between winning for winning's sake, and winning/losing as a natural consequence of testing learning.

graham christian
10-19-2011, 10:33 PM
Easily faced, though not always easily surmounted (in my experence at least). I agree it helps dramatically to be unfettered by fear and uncertainty, but another side of that is the usefulness for familiarity with the Fight, which is where concepts like competition (not "point-scoring") come in. I used to describe the absolute weakness of competitive mindsets until I began to see a distinction between winning for winning's sake, and winning/losing as a natural consequence of testing learning.

Interesting. I don't disagree per se with the above for it's all a matter of levels of. Hence I can understand how competition can aid on the path. Thus Tomiki view for example. However, that is on the path of learning Aikido, Ueshiba pointed to what the end result is. To keep that in mind for me is the duty of Aikidoka. no substitutes.

This does not mean testing yourself is wrong, in fact quite the opposite. But it also means the aim is real and achievable and known.

Some might call it imagination but inside they know it's not.

There are such things as 'five states of mind' within Aikido, such things as Hara, such things as Universal love, such things as Masakatsu and agatsu, all to be achieved within that framework. To be at one with the universe, quite a heady concept given as part of Aikido. Aims that represent Aikido.

We can say we have different degrees of reality on them and thus different degrees of reality on the vast subject that is Aikido but we know that of itself there is no fighting in it. Ultimately.

As the zen master said to grasshopper: 'There is enlightenment at the beginning of the path and enlightenment at the end but meanwhile there is doubt and a road to travel'

As usual, such is my view...

Regards.G.

phitruong
10-20-2011, 08:01 AM
Phi. I think you would be so fun to train with...if you are ever in the Berkshires be sure to stop by...

invitation to party. how can i turn that down? definitely will stop by if i am in your general location.

Mary Eastland
10-20-2011, 01:27 PM
Party is a strong word for what Ron and I do...;)

graham christian
10-25-2011, 05:27 PM
The Zen Master is just a product of your imagination

zenmaster

Ha, ha. Then you don't exist.

G.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2011, 06:30 PM
A kitten, a kitten, my kingdom for a kitten!

graham christian
10-25-2011, 06:43 PM
A kitten, a kitten, my kingdom for a kitten!

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.