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Jermaine Alley
06-20-2002, 03:24 AM
If Aikido is so effective, why don't many of the schools/systems teach ground techniques? With all of the talk about "Real World" application, how can we not include the fact that the majority of altercations end up in some place on the ground?

The majority of altercations that i have been involved prior to and during my service as a policeman, have ended up on the ground in some shape or form. Jujutsu/grappling techniqes have always interested me, but I never had the time to put into going to another school outside of mine.

Some of us have recently started to put some of our tachi waza technique to the test on the ground. For instance, at the conclusion of a technique when nage is performing a submission. Instead of properly pinning uke, "fudge" a little and allow uke an opening to off balance nage. This will necessitate another line of attack/defense for nage to come out of. It can be done in an non-competitive fashion, but keeping "real world" applications in mind.

This again being an aspect of "Takemusu", and/or martial creativity. I know a lot of my fellow aikidoka might be taken aback, but i remember reading a quote of O'sensei' that eluded to the point of keeping true to the concepts of Aikido, but at the same time making it your own in application.
Comments please...
jermaine...

PeterR
06-20-2002, 04:11 AM
Nothing stopping you from doing a little newaza after class - just remember in the "real world" the guys got friends with boots.

I wonder if it is far more reallistic to practice getting back onto your feet.

In one hour I leave for my Judo class - favourite part is the newaza. Strange how much my Aikido seems to prepare me for it.

paw
06-20-2002, 06:05 AM
I wonder if it is far more reallistic to practice getting back onto your feet.

Peter is correct!

Regards,

Paul

REK
06-20-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Jermaine Alley
If Aikido is so effective, why don't many of the schools/systems teach ground techniques?

You could argue that you answer your own question when you said:

For instance, at the conclusion of a technique when nage is performing a submission. Instead of properly pinning uke, "fudge" a little and allow uke an opening to off balance nage.

If you have them, "going to ground" is unnecessary.

With all of the talk about "Real World" application, how can we not include the fact that the majority of altercations end up in some place on the ground?

The majority of altercations that i have been involved prior to and during my service as a policeman, have ended up on the ground in some shape or form.

As a policeman, you are asked to apprehend people in such a way that going to ground is almost a given. In other words, you are constrained by policy and procedure (and law) to control an assailant without striking, if possible. So you will go to ground more. I believe that the frequency of ground fighting for those other than law enforcement is an artifact of two things:

1. No one knows how to hit properly. Result: numerous, poorly executed strikes. BJJ would be superfluous if someone just knocked them out before they took hold.
2. No one knows when to let up. Result: following a fallen opponent down unnecessarily in order to "finish him off". Unless on a battlefield, why go that far?

Flame away.

Rob

MikeE
06-20-2002, 09:54 AM
I would have to disagree with Jermaine's diagnosis that most altercations "go to the ground". I understand that most altercations you were in may end up that way because you are probably thinking more Taiho-jutsu (arresting techniques) where your prime goal is immobilizing a fleeing or resisting person. I teach PACT (Police Aikido Control Tactics) to different law enforcement groups. I see many professionals that choose to go to the ground with a perp, but they don't have to in many instances.

In the IAA we teach ground defenses, but mainly to escape being in that situation (not that it would be beyond us to submit a lone opponent). I have trained in BJJ for 5 years, so I try to see both sides of the coin.

The idea that most fights go to the ground is a way to defend a philosophy and fighting style. It all depends on who is in the fight. Two unskilled people may lose balance and one or both ends on the ground. If your newaza or BJJ is strong then you may want to go the ground for advantage. But, if an unskilled person attacks a good Judoka, Aikidoka, Boxer, Bujinkanoka, karateka..etc., will they go to the ground...? My guess is that only if the skilled person perceives an advantage by doing so.

And two skilled fighters squaring off would offer the same thing. (We could hope that in most instances their training would sink in and it wouldn't happen) But, it depends on where the perceived advantage is.

A blanket statement like "most fights go to the ground" can be a little misleading.

When I train Aikido ALL my fights go to the ground. Uke is always looking up at me from the ground :)

Bruce Baker
06-20-2002, 04:02 PM
I really wish I was younger and in better health so I could train some more with the BJJ guys around here, but that is not to be.

So, instead of being kind, not using the soft targets of pain or injury, which are usually forbidden in BJJ training, I must opt for pain and injury over grappling to the ground.

Yeah, there are many ways to cause submission without going to the ground, or keeping an opponent as a shield between you and multiple attackers, so when the option of pain or injury presents itself, are you prepared to use this option?

If you haven't heard the story about the old man and the young karate kid, here goes.

Kid comes into the bar after bragging about how good his kicking skills are to his friends, in a rather loud and rude language, fully loaded from showing off and drinking.

The old man tells him to quiet down and shut his mouth.

The kid says some rude comment then spin kicks a beer off the bar.

The kid gets in the old mans face.

The old man sticks a finger in the kids eye, who falls crying and weeping to the floor.

The old man goes back to drinking his beer.

Aikido is kind of like that, we use soft spots a safety areas without thinking they are available, but they are there none the less.

Pay attention when you practice, you might be doing techniques safely, but look at the availability of soft spots on your uke, or opponent ... commit them to memory to use later.

They will save you when you are grappled to the floor, or when you must resort to pain or injury to neutralize a situation.

Just because we don't use them in practice, or we play nice when we practice Aikido, doesn't mean they are not there.

Kind of neutralizes most grappling too.

mj
06-20-2002, 05:23 PM
hmmm....poking someone's eye out? Not very aiki.

As a minor 3 year student of aikido, I can say this with confidence, it is weak against groundwork. And not just against 'groundwork/newaza', but the difference between standing (tachi) and ground (ne) fighting (waza).

To say that going to the ground leaves you open to 'boot' attacks is correct....if we only ever accept a fight against many, but most fights are only against one...and usually solitary. (Sadly, this is experience talking, and that can be dismissed by people without it.)

The aikido techniques used against strangle/choking techniques are too weak, mainly because nage does not know how to strangle, partly because of the insistence on nage grasping uke's hand, which is an error. Strangles are performed extremely 'close in', no space between combatants, no body momentum. On the ground the legs are utilised to entrap, the head stuck in powerfully etc.

In other newaza (ground) attacks, entaglement is used, pressure points hurt and keeping uke off-balance is the first objective.

I am sure that other Martial Arts also react in the same way when questioned about the lack of ground techniques. :)

As to the (unstated) idea that going to the ground is dangerous....in most cases that is a fallacy too, and only shows lack of relevant experience. Taking a single attacker to the ground (,whether he is above, below or by your side,) is in many cases the most efficient way to control and/or defeat him.

Jermaine Alley
06-21-2002, 03:31 AM
There were a host of different interpretations on newaza..thanks for pointing out the proper terminology (still learning).
In no way do I doubt or question my training...I wrote that in a way to get folks wired up to reply to it.
I still do believe that realistically, the majority of so called "real world" altercations, end up with both parties on the ground, but it has been my practice more now than ever before to prepare myself for that.
Like MJ was writing, aikido in some area's does have its weaknesses, but i don't accept that at all.
MJ, hows about not allowing someone to enter close enough to establish a choke. As far as momentum, we really dont NEED momentum to start circle. I understand what you are saying though.
You guys are great...
j