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bob_stra
10-01-2011, 09:49 AM
These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw

Eric Joyce
10-01-2011, 10:36 AM
These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw

Interesting. It would have been more interesting if the guy in red resisted. If they were sparing, the guy in red did a piss poor job IMO.

bob_stra
10-01-2011, 10:53 AM
Interesting. It would have been more interesting if the guy in red resisted. If they were sparing, the guy in red did a piss poor job IMO.

Well, think of it as something between randori and a Hollywood movie, if it helps. Or your typical aikido dojo :D

In other words, It's obviously a "demonstration for TV" and I wouldn't be too surprised if uke and tori had been worked out before-hand.

They are however reasonable clips in terms of looking at how tori (CZQ) moves.

sakumeikan
10-01-2011, 01:11 PM
These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw
Dear Bob,
Neither of these guys would survive a Saturday night 'barney\ie a fight with a drunken guy in a public house in the Gallowgate [in Glasgow ].If these guys a experts? I will eat my sporran.The younger man is like a wooden doll, no life. Joe.

mathewjgano
10-01-2011, 01:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=related
I thought this one looked pretty good.

Alfonso
10-01-2011, 02:33 PM
an american idol spin-off I'd watch anyway.

I liked this one better, but still there's little fight in the under dog, seems clear to him he's outclassed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaC1gyrygms&feature=related

ChrisHein
10-01-2011, 09:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uMyQ6pYU0&feature=related
Check out 0:20, 0:37, 0:39, 1:12, 2:53.

These throws were done against competitors who are also very good at throwing. If you or I were to compete with these guys, there would be no competition. They would effortlessly throw us around, no matter how hard we tried. They would be using little to no force, staying relaxed and calm. It would look magical. If you are interested you could learn to do this. You wouldn't have to search for a special instructor, or find some secret knowledge, it's available to anyone interested, in most major cities, around the world.

David Orange
10-01-2011, 11:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uMyQ6pYU0&feature=related
Check out 0:20, 0:37, 0:39, 1:12, 2:53.

These throws were done against competitors who are also very good at throwing. If you or I were to compete with these guys, there would be no competition.

I guess that depends on who the "you or I" are.

[url]They would effortlessly throw us around, no matter how hard we tried. They would be using little to no force, staying relaxed and calm. It would look magical. If you are interested you could learn to do this. You wouldn't have to search for a special instructor, or find some secret knowledge, it's available to anyone interested, in most major cities, around the world.

Yes. It's muscle and technique. It's not Internal Strength, Internal Power, aiki or jin.

Interesting, but a different subject, altogether.

David

sakumeikan
10-02-2011, 12:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uMyQ6pYU0&feature=related
Check out 0:20, 0:37, 0:39, 1:12, 2:53.

These throws were done against competitors who are also very good at throwing. If you or I were to compete with these guys, there would be no competition. They would effortlessly throw us around, no matter how hard we tried. They would be using little to no force, staying relaxed and calm. It would look magical. If you are interested you could learn to do this. You wouldn't have to search for a special instructor, or find some secret knowledge, it's available to anyone interested, in most major cities, around the world.

Dear Chris,
In your dreams. I do not see anything special here.i have been thrown around by experts , dont see anything to cause me to be thrown around 'effortlessly'as you put it.In fact some of the grappling is poor.Too many Bruce Lee movies???
Cheers, Joe.

ChrisHein
10-02-2011, 12:53 PM
If you or I were Olympic level Greco-Roman wrestlers then yes, we could perhaps give these guys a run for their money. I know that I'm not an Olympic level wrestler, so they would likely have a really good time throwing me around.

If you do not see anything special here, you are not looking. If anyone in China could throw like these guys, they would likely be on the Chinese Olympic Greco-Roman team-likely mandated by their government-so the Chinese would win gold metals, and world glory. If any internal guy could achieve throws of this caliber against competitors at this level, they could become Olympians. So why wouldn't they? Even if they didn't want to be Olympians, I'm sure they would enjoy teaching the Olympic team. If they could do anything in this area that these guys couldn't I'm sure the Greco-Roman world would be willing to listen.

It's not "internal". Who says? I've studied internal, I'd say they use their body far better than anyone I've seen on video from this forum. Their body use in impeccable. If you're talking about some details as to why we can clearly say these guys are not "internal" I'd love to hear them.

If you want to talk about sparring and throwing, this is some of the best in the world. No one in the IP/IT/IS world can do anything near what these guys can do when it comes to throwing.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-02-2011, 03:04 PM
I do not see anything special here.
Because IHTBF
:)

sakumeikan
10-03-2011, 01:37 PM
Because IHTBF
:)

??????Ihtbf????Joe.Is this the Enigma code used during WW2??Joe.

Tim Ruijs
10-03-2011, 03:01 PM
you really should have paid more attention in the power/internal strength threads :D

Yoda would probably say: to be felt it had ;)

Budd
10-03-2011, 04:05 PM
So in the interest in having a real discussion around this topic. Prior to getting obsessed with internal strength, in addition to being a senior member of the aikikai of an independent dojo - I'd also go crosstrain (more like drop in to roll and spar) with some folks at the local BJJ school, Steve Blackman's MMA club (before it was an official MMA club), then some other guys that boxed at the gym I belonged to. I also grew up in various grappling sports and have enough additional time in various pugilistic/striking activities to know it's not my best fit, but it's good to practice every so often from the standpoint of being well-rounded (and learning to get over taking a hard hit by a skilled person trying to hurt you).

Having gotten hands on with some of the internal exponents often mentioned in these discussions - it didn't take me very long to see that it was "different" than your typical athletic strength (I used to get hands on guys from Edinboro University's wrestling team, including a NCAA champion, as well as olympic coaches, so I have an idea of what it's like to be overwhelmed and humbled *that* way). And the immediate flashing red neon sign in my brain was, "WANT!!"

The best way to describe it in layperson's terms is that you get the ability to mannage better what's happening inside you, how you're sourcing power and how you connect to another person physically - that it feels like someone has a control over your balance on contact (think a touch rather than a technique) - and depending on how/what they've trained to exploit it (and how much they've conditioned their body physically and how skilled they are at feeling your balance), it can be everything from a neat "ki" trick, to a way that they hit you with no windup (or hardly visible movement) that feels like a truck ran into you and you're like "WTF??". Much different from a boxer catching you flatfooted with a jab, hook combo or a Muay Thai shin kick that nearly breaks your leg.

In boxing or MT, I can "see" how those would work. But, if I watch, say, Chen Xao Wang, do a fajin release, I kind of say, "Hmm looks strong and whippy". Then the guy that hit me harder than anyone else ever has (again, with no visible windup, we were in contact, then "POW", I didn't see it coming) tells me how this CXW guy makes a concrete building shake when he stomps his foot. I have to say, it continues my interest in wanting to feel what people are doing. Apply that kind of shaking/release power to grappling, I no longer want this guy to get hands on anything near me - especially not my head/neck/limbs . . which means I'd better shoot him. Safely, from a distance. Or better yet, get someone else to do it. That's a solid defense, manipulate someone else into offense.

So after spending some time (a few years) doing some conditioning, skill-building - I don't grapple the same way. Not all to the obvious good. It's harder for me to get submissions because I find I used to muscle them more than I realized - to isolate a limb and control it. Since I'm trying to change how all of me's moving, I don't extend local muscle the same way to the hands. But when I do get, say, an armbar, it's much sneakier. My choke game, which wasn't ever great (short limbs, not an asset) has more life than it ever did. I'm a lot harder to take down than before (or throw - and some folks that have met me here should be able to vouch that I wasn't easy to take down before I cared about IS). When you try to submit me, it's harder to trap me as I can typically feel the setups much better than before and more easily slip into a counter (and keep in mind, I only sporadically spar in grappling these days - it's not upping my jits that's making me more of a handful).

In striking practice, I'm not the best guy at boxing/kickboxing/point karate ranges (short limbs, again, not an asset). But I'm actually okay at fighting at longer distances, closing in, forcing a clinch and fighting from there (think going from sword distance to clinch). Cutting off space with tai sabaki is it's own practice. And my dirty boxing has much improved - I can feel you moving much sooner, as I more easily plug into your balance. I can hit you harder with less movement than I could before. I can feel you favoring balance on a specific leg, for instance, so tactically if I wobble you in the direction I want to unbalance you, as you recover, BLAM!! A tactical application that takes advantage of the physical skill I'm training.

So, these are things I've found in basic application of my IS pursuits, over the last year or so of visiting MMA/BJJ joints, trying things out, not worrying about being tougher than the next guy. Do I get tagged or tapped? Hell, yes . . nothing makes you invincible. But I also can tell, when I step back on the mat after a short break - that ring rust should also be more of a factor than it has been spending dedicated periods in IS practice.

Does IS automatically make you a better fighter? I'd argue inasmuch other types of conditioning (edurance, weights) do - for a good while at least - which is why you need a delivery system for making the most of the type of skill/conditioning you're building. Over a lifetime, tho, I'd love to see some stats on the type of training that continues to build strength, versus the rate of power degradation. Would make for a good study, methinks.

Having proven, to myself at least, that there's value in application from the benefits training in IS provides, I'm back on the perch of focusing on the IS skill building/conditioning and trying to express it through the (not really, but sorta) narrow lens of my aikido. Trying to set up more partners to practice with, though - been too long playing on my own. ;)

HL1978
10-03-2011, 09:03 PM
II think Chris has a valid point, but in the last olmpics, the chinese did very well in boxing, judo and wrestling (11 medals compared to the US's 5), though the women faired fair better than the men, and a fair number had shuei jiao experience.

Given the level of IS knowledge in china when compared to the west, you would be surprised if they did not take advantage of that sort of training.

Cady Goldfield
10-03-2011, 09:50 PM
Given the level of IS knowledge in china when compared to the west, you would be surprised if they did not take advantage of that sort of training.

The existance of IS knowledge in China, and the open availability of IS knowledge there, are two different things. I get the impression that such skills aren't so widely known as we might think.

Teachers of traditional "internal" martial arts in China are not so open, and perhaps they would be especially reluctant to teach anything of substance to people who approach them not to learn and embrace the teachers' art, but simply to mine them for their IS skills in order to apply them to judo, boxing, wrestling and what-have-you. It's not something to be so freely given away, and typically, "the goodies" are jealously guarded. A lot of their own longtime students don't even get them.

Also, I'd think that athletes who go in for international-level competition training are far more likely to be very focused on the methods and techniques of their chosen sport-art, and less inclined to want to spend the large amount of time it takes to train IS and learn to apply it effectively and as second nature, even if they were aware of its existance and value. The competition life of athletes is fairly short. It seems to me that they typically want methods and techniques they can pocket and use as quickly as possible and be ready to employ it in the next big competition. It seems similar to the situation with professional MMA people-- with the more open availability of folks teaching IS in the West, you'd think that these guys would have heard about it and want it for their own. But, with a few very unique exceptions, there doesn't seem to be a goldrush going on there, either.

FWIW.

Michael Varin
10-04-2011, 05:09 AM
These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw

Wow. This thread was poorly named.

Sparring?

I enjoyed the second video, but it is clearly not sparring.

The first video. . . Well, that was just plain bad.

It is always informative to see what people think is "effective" or exactly what a "resisting" opponent looks like.

BTW, in sparring, even limited, there is no "uke."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5N...eature=related
I thought this one looked pretty good.
Yeah. That's a good one, but once again not sparring. The guy in blue is Chen Bing's student and clearly there to be thrown.

I liked this one better, but still there's little fight in the under dog, seems clear to him he's outclassed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaC1g...eature=related

Probably a good idea for "IP/IT/IS" people to not post any more "Wu Shu Master" videos as a serious reference ;)

Howard Prior
10-04-2011, 08:58 AM
Having gotten hands on with some of the internal exponents often mentioned in these discussions....Then the guy that hit me harder than anyone else ever has...tells me how this CXW guy makes a concrete building shake when he stomps his foot. I have to say, it continues my interest in wanting to feel what people are doing....So after spending some time (a few years) doing some conditioning, skill-building - I don't grapple the same way.... I don't extend local muscle local muscle the same way to the hands....I'm a lot harder to take down than before....When you try to submit me, it's harder to trap me as I can typically feel the setups much better than before....I can hit you harder with less movement than I could before....So, these are things I've found in basic application of my IS pursuits....Do I get tagged or tapped? Hell, yes . . nothing makes you invincible....Having proven, to myself at least, that there's value in application from the benefits training in IS provides, I'm back on the perch of focusing on the IS skill building/conditioning and trying to express it through the (not really, but sorta) narrow lens of my aikido.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

DH
10-04-2011, 09:34 AM
Probably a good idea for "IP/IT/IS" people to not post any more "Wu Shu Master" videos as a serious reference ;)
Well now, I slammed that video when it first appeared as it was obvious to anyone with experience that it was a set-up demo. I was rather surprised to see who supported it as any sort of sparring session and I got slammed for saying what it really was.
While I agree, I would also add commentary for certain detractors that's probably also not a good idea for those with just Aikido backgrounds to post vids of their own in house experiments of what they think "weapons" were and are and then argue with those who really do know what they're talking about either.;) In the face of such profound ignorance from Budo teachers I struggle to remain polite in both cases.

Whether or not people with real internal skills decide to enter into competition class sports remains to be seen. You can have world class internal power and still not be able to fight. You can be a world class fighter and still have no clue about internal power. Granted knowing either is a great advantage and will be enough that most normal budo-ka will not know how to deal with you. But one does not equal or invalidate the other. If you have not, or do not fight...then you don't now how to fight. It's that simple.
If you have not and do not train internals that have been tested by some real experts than you just might be kidding yourself as to what you really have.
Trying to shoot in or throw and submit some world class Chinese IP guys is going to be very difficult, so you do the feints, and pick-apart, head hunter game to set them up to knock them out. Then again, if they have both...well...they will be damn near impossible to throw, while their short and long game is hitting you like a freakin truck with no time lag and weirdly non-telegraphing movement as they hunt you and set you up.
The most important aspects of the argument is a need to learn both; A and B. Spending time training in the ICMA in China is meaningless-most experienced budo people know this already. And being a good fighter does not validate your saying you know or have internal power. It is relatively simple to see if someone knows or moves in a way that demonstrates they are conversant in the fight game. It is just as easy to listen to someone discuss internals and watch them move and see if they are conversant and have the skills.
That said, to make a case that A = B or that either cancels out the other does does a disservice to the discussion.
Dan
.

mathewjgano
10-04-2011, 10:25 AM
Yeah. That's a good one, but once again not sparring. The guy in blue is Chen Bing's student and clearly there to be thrown.

Good to know. I thought a few of those throws looked like the student wasn't trying very hard, but I couldn't tell on some of the others. I mostly liked seeing the big dude getting tossed like a rag-doll, which is I guess success in advertizing.:D
I probably shouldn't have posted it since I didn't think it was a full-on sparring match, but I did assume the student was trying to throw Chen Bing. Was he not doing that at all, then?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-04-2011, 11:30 AM
@ Budd,

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Whether or not people with real internal skills decide to enter into competition class sports remains to be seen.
I'm not holding my breath.

Alfonso
10-04-2011, 11:52 AM
ot post any more "Wu Shu Master" videos as a serious reference ;)

You prefer tall stories and anecdotal re-telling instead? At least there's something to watch and put a rein on your imagination.

Thomas Campbell
10-04-2011, 12:11 PM
[snip].

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw

Bob--

I appreciate you posting these clips, because it's an opportunity to ask some direct questions. Leaving aside the question of whether what's shown constitutes "sparring" or not . . . at what points in these clips do you see CZQ using "internal" strength? What visible indications are there of use of IS in these specific clips?

Thanks. I'm trying to educate myself in perusing video material purporting to demonstrate internal strength, whether teacher with compliant student or non-cooperative engagement.

DH
10-04-2011, 01:14 PM
Dan Harden wrote:
Whether or not people with real internal skills decide to enter into competition class sports remains to be seen.
I'm not holding my breath.
That's fine.
I don't contribute much on these types of threads because frankly I see an intellectual dishonesty in the discourse. I no longer believe there is an interest in obtaining any objective truth with certain groups and individuals. It is agenda driven rhetoric and nothing else.
Why is it that the posters here over the years; have never and I mean...NEVER.... acknowledge the reports of experienced grapplers and MMA people who have stated that this feels different? When presented, they are ignored. Why? Because frankly, the discussions with certain people are no longer discussions at all. They are statements of disbelief for the sake of disbelief only, that stand in the face of all reports to the contrary.

No one on the IP/aiki side is making claims that are outrageous or untoward. They are reasonable, sensible, in balance and fit with what Asian budo was and is. Seeing it cast aside without even a hint of first hand experience is more comical than upsetting.
We don't need to convince the world (why bother making an enemy?). In the end it just makes more budo people that are easier to defeat-using the essence of what Asian budo was all about in the first place...and leaving them wondering what they missed after thirty years in the wrong direction.
Dan

PhillyKiAikido
10-04-2011, 01:38 PM
@Budd, thanks for sharing your experience.

@Bob, thanks for this good thread.

Here is another clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdHoCspkphI of the semi-final of the TaiChi competition. Both competitors are over 200 pounds and they moved like bulldozers. They're not allowed to use any dangerous techniques in the competitions. It's understandable that people compare them to UFC since that's the easy way we're open to different martial arts. However true martial arts are different from sports or TV shows. I have no doubt these guys, started strict trainings when they were 3 year's old, have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds.

Thomas Campbell
10-04-2011, 02:09 PM
Here is another clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdHoCspkphI of the semi-final of the TaiChi competition. .

Thanks for the clip, Ting Piao.

Same question asked about the clips in the original post: at what specific points in this video clip do you see visible evidence of use of internal strength? Where one opponent so clearly dominates (in this clip, the gentleman in black), it's not necessarily any easier to distinguish exactly what's happening than with two more evenly-matched opponents.

hughrbeyer
10-04-2011, 02:44 PM
Jeez, did they have to put the ref in an Elvis suit? Makes the whole thing look like WWF.

Have a look at the throw at 2 minutes in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdHoCspkphI&feature=player_detailpage#t=121s). I like that one because there's so little going on. Attempt that move on anyone, much less a top-level competitor, and he'll just drop his arm and sock you with the other one. Instead, the guy in black creates a connection and drops his opponent with no external movement.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-04-2011, 03:02 PM
Why is it that the posters here over the years; have never and I mean...NEVER.... acknowledge the reports of experienced grapplers and MMA people who have stated that this feels different? When presented, they are ignored. Why? Because frankly, the discussions with certain people are no longer discussions at all. They are statements of disbelief for the sake of disbelief only, that stand in the face of all reports to the contrary.

Maybe because all those statements were not made by world class/olympic/professional players.

People like Budd, Amdur, Abrams, Ledyard, etc are undoubtly people worth listening to but, with all due respect, they are not winning consistently matches at the top levels of the grappling sports or being hired to coach olympic wrestling/judo teams or pro mma fighters (afaik).

Does that mean their statements lack value?, of course not, in fact they have a lot of value in their respective fields of expertise but statements about the usefulness of IT in combat sports made by the top people in that field is what I've missed.

Would you mind to point me (the resident intellectually dishonest disbeliever) the statements about this issue made by top caliber combat sport players (olympic team judo/wrestling medalists, bjj world or pan-am champions, ufc winners...) or their coaches.

Thomas Campbell
10-04-2011, 03:11 PM
Have a look at the throw at 2 minutes in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdHoCspkphI&feature=player_detailpage#t=121s). . . . , the guy in black creates a connection and drops his opponent with no external movement.

Thanks. I like that one. Black does move externally, but like you point out he creates a connection and drops Red almost straight down. The connection Black creates controls or at least inhibits Red's free (left) arm.

bob_stra
10-04-2011, 03:46 PM
. . . at what points in these clips do you see CZQ using "internal" strength? What visible indications are there of use of IS in these specific clips?

Thanks. I'm trying to educate myself in perusing video material purporting to demonstrate internal strength, whether teacher with compliant student or non-cooperative engagement.

Aside from anything else, IHTBF is a round about way of saying "if you've experienced it before, you know it when you see it again".

If you think about it, the notion of IHTBF should be simple, common-sense.

To really belabour the point, consider learning to play tennis. When you first start off, your skill isn't that high, so watching video of Nadal vs Fedora isn't that illuminating. Often, you're not quite sure why something has happened or it may look hoaky ("oh come on! if he just ran for it")

Later on, as you play matches and accumulate skill, you can begin to discern some things about why player Nadal serves the way he does, the kind of shots he selects, his temprament and the like. Pretty soon, you can tell when someone is a good tennis player, is athletic but clueless, has never played before etc.

In other words, there are certain "tells" in skilled performance. Internal strength is a skilled performance (albeit a hard to discern one, especially without IHTBF), equal part conditioning (which allows you to do some unusual things) and skill (applications of said conditioning).

In other words, a "strength-skill".

To give a better idea of this strength skill idea, lets set CZQ aside for a moment and look at this

http://vimeo.com/7818724

The clip in itself isn't particularly impressive (although it is a more reasonable approximation of sparring) but it features a number of tells.

For example, at 0:25, you can something fairly interesting. Blue is providing a kind of transparent structure which (a) has fooled white into thinking 'aha, I have him: attack!" and (b) misreading this, allows white to throw himself.

In other words, what you're seeing is a non-telegraphic blending of two forces through the use of a properly conditioned body: an event reliant on conditioning and skill. Thus, it appears that Blue has generated a large force to shove black back that far. Actually, if you watch it again a few times, you'll see blue isn't doing that at all. There are other fun things to see in this clip, too.

With that kind of analysis in mind, go back to the CZQ clips and take a fresh look. Notice that there are portions wherein he seems unusually strong (for the position he's in), able to generate strikes that cause larger-then-expected results, absorb hits, lift and throw without telegraphing etc.

DH
10-04-2011, 05:02 PM
Maybe because all those statements were not made by world class/olympic/professional players.
People like Budd, Amdur, Abrams, Ledyard, etc are undoubtly people worth listening to but, with all due respect, they are not winning consistently matches at the top levels of the grappling sports or being hired to coach olympic wrestling/judo teams or pro mma fighters (afaik).

Does that mean their statements lack value?, of course not, in fact they have a lot of value in their respective fields of expertise but statements about the usefulness of IT in combat sports made by the top people in that field is what I've missed.

Would you mind to point me (the resident intellectually dishonest disbeliever) the statements about this issue made by top caliber combat sport players (olympic team judo/wrestling medalists, bjj world or pan-am champions, ufc winners...) or their coaches.
I'm not talking about Olympic level players either and never have. I am talking about competitors with established fight records as well as grapplers of all types who...with all due respect...are on a different level then the normal martial artists I meet. It is those men- who can fight and who have felt it and sparred with us who have noted IP/aiki is different and feels different than the ordinary way someone delivers power and moves and offers distinct advantages. And some of those sparing sessions have been done in open rooms.
Interestingly, you attempted yet another tactic or ploy to up the anti to world class figthers to vet or destroy the validity of a method while not using the same standard to completely discredit aikido. The reason I stopped talking to many of you is that you continue to mix up two very different topics into one in order to try every perceivable angle to just be contrary, against all logic. It has lost credibility as a debating point. It is functionally dishonest. I leave it up to you to decide why that is.

On it's own, IP can be tested and felt, but it is a totally different discussion of whether or not I or someone else can fight. One, does not validate or invalidate the other. So discussions like this are all but meaningless.
Let's cut to the chase. There is no interest in truth or impartial experience and reporting by hundreds of qualified people. The honest truth is that there is group of people that think IP is B.S., something that you already know or is marginally useful... plain and simple. I don't think a thousand Martial artists all stating the same thing would ever convince you of anything...why...because you don't want it to be true, for prejudicial reasons past logical examination.
Dan

worrier
10-05-2011, 02:50 AM
Thanks for the videos, guys. Really cool.

ewolput
10-05-2011, 04:17 AM
In randori (Tomiki Style) most of the players are technique and muscle players. Some of them are very strong and skillfull. There are others who are fighting from a body structure, the body act as one piece, the arms and legs are very flexible and their skill is keeping a vertical and mobile posture and together with the ability to extend power in a "accepted" technique, they have some advantage against technique/muscle fighters. Of course if your mind is not set for fighting you will loose the fight. The problem with most of the people is, they start too early with randori and they compensate the lack of body structure and no extension of power with muscle strength. It is very difficult to change muscle people into body structure people.
At the website of Waseda University, Teruo Fujiwara wrote something about the proces of training :

The time when I studied under Tomiki-shihan in 1956-1958 is called 'the age of Judo Exercise'. The main ways of moving the body and hands were picked from Aiki skills, then simplified and abstracted and organized as the exercise forms. These forms are 'Judo Exercise'. The plan of making 'Judo Exercise' is that by doing them repeatedly, we can learn Aiki as if we learned hundreds of thousands of skills which can benefit our bodies in a positive fashion. . 'Judo Exercise' is the valuable legacy of Tomiki-sensei.
 Tomiki-sensei wrote in the pamphlet Judo Exercise (published as the text of regular subject physical education in April 1957) that he made 'Judo Exercise' as the way to practice Aiki, which couldn't be a sport, and that when practicing aikido, we must study for correctness and beauty, rather than strength. That is why our time is called 'the age of Judo Exercise'.
 I could study the beauty of Aiki following Tomiki-sensei without hesitating but there were many students interested in the strength of Aiki. It may be natural for young men who would like to study martial arts. Tomiki-sensei said that they must satisfy their desire for strength by practicing the other skills in 'Judo Exercise' but they didn't always follow his suggestion.
 In 1958, Aikido Club which was previously not an official club (in early times, Aikido Club was a part of Judo Club. Tomiki-sensei was also the shihan of Judo Club) was granted official status in the Department of Sport and Physical education at Waseda University. As a condition of becoming an official club, Aikido Club was required to practice as a competitioncompetitive sport. There is no doubt Tomiki-sensei was considering how to develop aikido into a competitioncompetitive sport as the ultimate goal, yet, he did not expect the situation to become an urgent matter. It was this requirement that forced Tomiki aikido to step into 'the age of sport: Randori'.

 Today Sport Aikido is moving toward completion step by step. However, the skill level of Sport Aikido is not the same as our 'age of Judo Exercise'. While we must accept that wrong forms will happen in sport, Randori, 'Judo Exercise' is useful as the model for checking and correcting them. I think that such a correction will bring sport Randori higher, with beauty and grace. For the beginner, 'Judo Exercise' is the proper guidance of skills. I think it is necessary that beginners learn to perform the correct postures and beautiful movements by training in 'Judo Exercise'. This method will help them avoid incorrect forms in future Randori practice. .

Nothing new under the sun,
Eddy

hughrbeyer
10-05-2011, 06:21 AM
Interesting comments on randori. My own feeling, looking back at my Tomiki days, is that randori was the main thing pointing away from being overly dependent on muscle strength. Maybe because we just used it as practice inside the dojo rather than as competition with other dojos, or maybe because my sensei was a sneaky bastard, but muscle never worked in randori. What worked best was to be there but not there, connected but offering no resistance your opponent could use and take advantage of.

Unfortunately I was too stupid at the time to really take advantage of the lesson.

bob_stra
10-05-2011, 10:59 AM
[I]The time when I studied under Tomiki-shihan in 1956-1958 is called 'the age of Judo Exercise'. The main ways of moving the body and hands were picked from Aiki skills, then simplified and abstracted and organized as the exercise forms. These forms are 'Judo Exercise'.
[snip]


Yeah, it's an evocative quote. The "judo exercise" (dubbed judo taiso by some) have been a matter of discussion over the years at JF. One wonders why Tomiki didn't stick with Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku , though ultimately such things are neither here nor there; both the Judo exercises and SZKT seem to have devolved into a kind of Dance-Dance revolution.

What could - potentially - be interesting - is to discuss how and why Tomiki chose the particular things he did for the Judo Exercises, given his intention was to embody Aiki in them.

YMMV

ewolput
10-05-2011, 12:43 PM
Some years ago an old movie (early fifties) of Kenji Tomiki appeared and this movie gave a shock to one of the shihan of the JAA (Japan Aikido Association). In this movie Kenji Tomiki was demonstrating solo exercises which were different from what JAA people are doing. Also the section on basic partner movements and techniques are closer to Ueshiba prewar style. Tomiki's movements are not dance movements but are related to the techniques he was doing. The Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku looks maybe similar but aiki seems not to be included in this Judo kata. Refering to Teruo Fujiwara, it seems Tomiki wanted to include aiki into a training system for randori. Looking at most of the modern Tomiki aikido players, there is no aiki. Only the first generation students of Tomiki after the war studied these exercises. The later generations changed these exercises and ommited the aiki. The last 5 yrs some instructors of Tomiki aikido discovered again these exercises and picked up the first generation students who still practised this. If this can lead to bring aiki again into Tomiki's aikido, the future will tell you. Recently one of these students died, Senta Yamada a student of Tomiki but also of Morihei Ueshiba. His aikido was different from modern Tomiki aikido people. He always said to do solo basic exercises and partner exercises before you can study techniques.
Not so many students understood very well what he said and most of the students just copied the movements without knowing what they are doing.

Just some info on Tomiki's aiki-do

Eddy

Ernesto Lemke
10-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Hello Eddy, thank you for that information. Very interesting. I take it this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8) is the clip in question. At least the 2nd part notes "Aiki no waza" are featured.
As you say, the future will tell. I'm curious how they will attempt to 'revitalize' this as you mentioned not many students getting it in the first place and just copied the movements. If you don't mind me asking, is that your personal opinion or something Yamada Sensei said? Either way, it sorta implies the knowledge still exists within Tomiki circles, albeit it's maybe scattered or scarce. I'm not that familiar with Tomiki style aikido but would be interested seeing this aspect appear, be it now or in the future...
Best,

phitruong
10-05-2011, 03:04 PM
watching these clips made me itch for a fight. let me at 'em. i can do better than those clowns. ya, let me at 'em. on second thought, let Budd at 'em. no point of me getting hurt first. :)

ewolput
10-05-2011, 03:56 PM
If you don't mind me asking, is that your personal opinion or something Yamada Sensei said?
Best,
I see a lot of people who studied with Senta Yamada with bad posture, no natural movement,.... but I also see a few who understand what he taught. So, my personal opinion is that most of them just copied what he tried to teach without understanding or without regular practice.

Eddy

PhillyKiAikido
10-06-2011, 12:18 PM
Thanks for the clip, Ting Piao.

Same question asked about the clips in the original post: at what specific points in this video clip do you see visible evidence of use of internal strength? Where one opponent so clearly dominates (in this clip, the gentleman in black), it's not necessarily any easier to distinguish exactly what's happening than with two more evenly-matched opponents.

Thomas,

About the IS in those videos, you can refer to some previous good posts in this forum by Mr. Mike Sigman. The videos are illustrations of what he wrote.

Addition to what others have pointed out, I just want to throw my 2 cents here for thoughts and discussions:

1) IS is the whole body strength, not the limb or shoulder or chest strength. It's from the Dantian/Hara/Center/OnePoint, so the spine must be straight and upright all the time in order for the strength to come out. From the video, we can see the posture of the gentleman in black is always straight whenever he moves, round-kicks, stands with one or two legs, ...

2) IS is a lot more powerful than ES. Watch this video of the same person in the competition, you'll get a impression of his power http://youtu.be/QpdzhYjx_zw .

Enjoy!

Ting

Lee Salzman
10-06-2011, 12:44 PM
Addition to what others have pointed out, I just want to throw my 2 cents here for thoughts and discussions:

1) IS is the whole body strength, not the limb or shoulder or chest strength. It's from the Dantian/Hara/Center/OnePoint, so the spine must be straight and upright all the time in order for the strength to come out. From the video, we can see the posture of the gentleman in black is always straight whenever he moves, round-kicks, stands with one or two legs, ...


Does the spine need to be straight, or upright, really? Can't we imagine a connection that can carry through a flexible spine? Nay, not carried through, but actually generated by the spine? If the connectivity of the spine was dependent on a rigid position, could you legitimately say you are moving from it? The rabbit hole is deep, but it ain't just straight down...

DH
10-06-2011, 01:35 PM
1) IS is the whole body strength, not the limb or shoulder or chest strength. It's from the Dantian/Hara/Center/OnePoint, so the spine must be straight and upright all the time in order for the strength to come out. From the video, we can see the posture of the gentleman in black is always straight whenever he moves, round-kicks, stands with one or two legs, ...
Enjoy!
Ting
That's simply B.S. No, I don't really care who told you that. There are training tools and advantages to an upright posture, but once you understand connection and have it for real, the whole body can be fluid and retain and issue power. Even going into and out of the upright posture can create power.
Worse it can be used against you very easily in a number of martial venues by more experienced people. I caution people to understand that some of these methods being taught by people who do not now how to fight have some pretty funny flaws in them that would NEVER be tolerated by most intelligent fighters.

There is a more complete model for fighters and weapons people to consider but since everyone gets an "A" in budo land or they get sensitive and feel they are entitled to be equal to everyone else's hard work without equal time or effort... you'll have to discover these things on your own, I guess.
Dan

Lee Salzman
10-06-2011, 01:53 PM
Even going into and out of the upright posture can create power.

You say that as if there are not entire arts based around that singular concept (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfwLXkMzTQQ). :D

PhillyKiAikido
10-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Mr Harden, Mr Salzman,

Thanks both of your for the comments that are thought-provoking and eye-opening. As a beginner, I hope to learn as much as I can from your posts.

That's simply B.S. No, I don't really care who told you that.
Now I know my third grade PE teacher lied to me. :mad:


There are training tools and advantages to an upright posture, but once you understand connection and have it for real, the whole body can be fluid and retain and issue power. Even going into and out of the upright posture can create power.
Totally agree. Is that called HunYuanLi(浑圆力)?

Worse it can be used against you very easily in a number of martial venues by more experienced people. I caution people to understand that some of these methods being taught by people who do not now how to fight have some pretty funny flaws in them that would NEVER be tolerated by most intelligent fighters.

There is a more complete model for fighters and weapons people to consider but since everyone gets an "A" in budo land or they get sensitive and feel they are entitled to be equal to everyone else's hard work without equal time or effort... you'll have to discover these things on your own, I guess.
Dan

Sincerely hope to have the previlige to be in your class some day to study from you.

This topic is interesting. I wonder if any of you can shed some more insights from your (expert) perspective on IS in the video, that would be very helpful for us beginners to get a taste of the concept of Aiki/IS.

Thank you!

Ting

Thomas Campbell
10-06-2011, 06:47 PM
Thomas,

About the IS in those videos, you can refer to some previous good posts in this forum by Mr. Mike Sigman. The videos are illustrations of what he wrote.

Looking back, it seems that Mr. Mike Sigman made several thousand posts in the past on this forum, and it would be more than a little difficult to sift through his remarks to find any relating to the specific video clips that you reference in the original post on this thread. While Mr. Sigman's observations about these clips would be welcome, the original questions to you still stand:

At what specific points in this video clip do YOU see visible evidence of use of internal strength? Where one opponent so clearly dominates (in this clip, the gentleman in black), it's not necessarily any easier to distinguish exactly what's happening than with two more evenly-matched opponents.

2) IS is a lot more powerful than ES. Watch this video of the same person in the competition, you'll get a impression of his power http://youtu.be/QpdzhYjx_zw .
Enjoy!

Ting

I did enjoy this clip and agree that your man seems like a powerful exponent of Chen taijiquan. Thanks.

MM
10-07-2011, 08:31 PM
Recently one of these students died, Senta Yamada a student of Tomiki but also of Morihei Ueshiba. His aikido was different from modern Tomiki aikido people. He always said to do solo basic exercises and partner exercises before you can study techniques.
Not so many students understood very well what he said and most of the students just copied the movements without knowing what they are doing.

Just some info on Tomiki's aiki-do

Eddy

An interesting quote from Senta Yamada:

"In the early days at Wakayama Ken I thought I had learned many things well, but one evening after a day of hard practice, Professor Uyeshiba explained that whilst my movements were technically good, they were not aikido. Physical excellence was not enough, I had technique, but not art. To be truly successful I must become fully in accord with spirit for it is spirit that carries the mind and controls the body."

From The Principles and Practice of Aikido by Senta Yamada. 1966.

DH
10-07-2011, 10:37 PM
An interesting quote from Senta Yamada:

"In the early days at Wakayama Ken I thought I had learned many things well, but one evening after a day of hard practice, Professor Uyeshiba explained that whilst my movements were technically good, they were not aikido. Physical excellence was not enough, I had technique, but not art. To be truly successful I must become fully in accord with spirit for it is spirit that carries the mind and controls the body."

From The Principles and Practice of Aikido by Senta Yamada. 1966.
Translate that as "Move with intent." and "When one thing moves- everything moves." and it might actually have meaning.

gregstec
10-08-2011, 09:26 AM
Translate that as "Move with intent." and "When one thing moves- everything moves." and it might actually have meaning.

Well, that was what he said in a martial context - he just used his standard esoteric delivery - problem is a lot of folks take his words and apply their own definition to the meaning of them out of context, and the next thing you know is that the mental intent spirit energy thing has turned into a form of a religious way of life that exists somewhere on an ethereal astral plane of existence :)

Greg

Michael Varin
10-09-2011, 12:48 AM
An interesting quote from Senta Yamada:

"In the early days at Wakayama Ken I thought I had learned many things well, but one evening after a day of hard practice, Professor Uyeshiba explained that whilst my movements were technically good, they were not aikido. Physical excellence was not enough, I had technique, but not art. To be truly successful I must become fully in accord with spirit for it is spirit that carries the mind and controls the body."

From The Principles and Practice of Aikido by Senta Yamada. 1966.

Translate that as "Move with intent." and "When one thing moves- everything moves." and it might actually have meaning.

It had more meaning before your "translation."

Michael Varin
10-09-2011, 05:54 AM
While I agree, I would also add commentary for certain detractors that's probably also not a good idea for those with just Aikido backgrounds to post vids of their own in house experiments of what they think "weapons" were and are and then argue with those who really do know what they're talking about either.

Fair enough, but totally irrelevant to this thread.

I don't contribute much on these types of threads because frankly I see an intellectual dishonesty in the discourse. I no longer believe there is an interest in obtaining any objective truth with certain groups and individuals. It is agenda driven rhetoric and nothing else.

Interesting view. It could equally be said to be true about you.

Interestingly, you attempted yet another tactic or ploy to up the anti to world class figthers to vet or destroy the validity of a method while not using the same standard to completely discredit aikido. The reason I stopped talking to many of you is that you continue to mix up two very different topics into one in order to try every perceivable angle to just be contrary, against all logic. It has lost credibility as a debating point. It is functionally dishonest. I leave it up to you to decide why that is.

On it's own, IP can be tested and felt, but it is a totally different discussion of whether or not I or someone else can fight. One, does not validate or invalidate the other. So discussions like this are all but meaningless.
Let's cut to the chase. There is no interest in truth or impartial experience and reporting by hundreds of qualified people. The honest truth is that there is group of people that think IP is B.S., something that you already know or is marginally useful... plain and simple. I don't think a thousand Martial artists all stating the same thing would ever convince you of anything...why...because you don't want it to be true, for prejudicial reasons past logical examination.

Really?

I feel like you have mixed up those same two topics when it is to your benefit and tried to separate them when it worked for you as well.

And really, Dan, don't you take any responsibility for the tone of the "IP/IT/IS" discussions here on AikiWeb?

I mean, you have been probably the most vociferous poster. And you were the one who started talking about 350 hp washing machine agitators, putting people in hospitals, and "vetting."

But I'm really glad you're here, because, you know, that Saito was a real dummy and despite spending 25 years with Morihei Ueshiba and being his closest student and attendant to his family and guardian of his shrine, he just never understood anything the old man said. Luckily we have you, who as far as I know, speaks neither Japanese nor Chinese to interpret all of Morihei's writings.

I have absolutely nothing against you or any other person pursuing "IP/IT/IS," but here's the thing. . .

Neither Demetrio nor myself started a thread called "internal strength in sparring" then proceeded to post no videos featuring sparring. Personally, I don't care about Olympians or world class MMA guys. I just want to see some video of what you and your people are doing, but none are forthcoming.

I would've been satisfied with some legit push hands videos, which seem to be fairly plentiful on YouTube . . .

DH
10-09-2011, 10:33 AM
Fair enough, but totally irrelevant to this thread.
Interesting view. It could equally be said to be true about you.
Really?
I feel like you have mixed up those same two topics when it is to your benefit and tried to separate them when it worked for you as well.

And really, Dan, don't you take any responsibility for the tone of the "IP/IT/IS" discussions here on AikiWeb?

I mean, you have been probably the most vociferous poster. And you were the one who started talking about 350 hp washing machine agitators, putting people in hospitals, and "vetting."

I have absolutely nothing against you or any other person pursuing "IP/IT/IS," but here's the thing. . .

Neither Demetrio nor myself started a thread called "internal strength in sparring" then proceeded to post no videos featuring sparring. Personally, I don't care about Olympians or world class MMA guys. I just want to see some video of what you and your people are doing, but none are forthcoming.

I would've been satisfied with some legit push hands videos, which seem to be fairly plentiful on YouTube . . .
Feel better?
I'm not going to entertain an argument with you over every point. I will say that as long as I have been discussing it, I have steadfastly separated issues of IP/aiki and fighting. They need not be joined, they can be discussed separately, and should be discussed separately. Not everyone wants to go down that road and should not be required to.

Fighting is a different topic. I only mention IP/aiki in regards to fighting because people -some very famous people from back on Ebudo and elsewhere (one of whom is now TEACHING internal power) have stated it relied on fine motor skills and will fail under stress. I have pointed for decades that -that idea is simply false and demonstrates the lack of understanding of those teachers. And apparenty they now agree with me, one of them even admitted that at the time they didn't get it...go figure. I brought up my success with it in that venue to prove a point. I was the only one I knoew of at the time who was doing so. Hence, my using my own experiences for proof or point. If you want to use it to cast me in a negative light like some here do routinely..go right ahead. Those with even a cursury familiarity of me presonally would disagree with your assertions of my motives.

Anyway...internal strength and fighting. As was demonstrated in the current Solo training thread-you confuse the two and go back and forth to make a point. I discussed: Aikido students learning IP /aiki in aikido and compared those in aikido not wanting to learn IP/aii then having to face Aikido-ka who were...
Dan Harden wrote:
There is no way to be polite about it. If you train Ueshiba's aiki correctly, no one from Aikido™ will be able to deal with you. So for those students opting out...it's only a matter of time before they are helpless to stop those training aiki. Aikido™ will always fail against the way of aiki (O sensei's aiki...do). It cannot be avoided.
Your reply?
Unless the Aikido™ guy is a Fighter™, right?
-Michael
I don't mind having discussions with you, but you're typically all over the map and cannot stay on point. I am aware of your training history. The fact that you cannot separate topics and and blend it all into your home grown garage-do is fine by me. Call mine, Barn-do I don't care. I let what I do stand on its own merits. But your stated understanding of IP/aiki;
With baseball players and golfers and anyone who does things well in sports having internal power that your camp has made as well as confusing traditional weapons with the dog brothers (excellent but different) work, of IP being inately trained into good fighters or sports, as well as other related comments you make clearly demonstrates that we have profound differences of opinion on what IP/aiki is.
Therefore, we have to intellectually acknowledge that one of us has to be clearly wrong in their understanding of what internal power and Aiki is...
I will state openely that I can demonstrate things that you cannot replicate and no one I know of or have heard of has ever said your camp has unusual power...but rather that you are good jujutsu men with good fighting principles. Yeah you. Thats quite and accomplishment, but one, has nothing to do with the other.

As for "tone of discussions"
I'll let your post to me stand on it's own merits. Take this for example:
I have absolutely nothing against you or any other person pursuing "IP/IT/IS,"
But I'm really glad you're here, because, you know, that Saito was a real dummy and despite spending 25 years with Morihei Ueshiba and being his closest student and attendant to his family and guardian of his shrine, he just never understood anything the old man said. Luckily we have you, who as far as I know, speaks neither Japanese nor Chinese to interpret all of Morihei's writings.
It is intellectually dishonest to state that you have nothing against me...then write this rubbish.
1. It does not accurately express a single comment I have made
2. It falsely re-interprets what I have said in a bad light-putting words in my mouth that I never said or even agree with.
It is...intellectually dishonest as an argument.

So, there is no point in trying to communicate to you, its better to talk past you to other readers.
1. I have never stated Saito was a dummy
2. He and others have openly stated that they did in fact not understand what Ueshiba was talking about. Does it make them dummies because they did not understand him? I don't think so. So why would Michael state they were?
3. We now have a few people who are doing what Ueshiba did; they are studying the chinese classics, and IP/aiki and it is they..who are the professional translators who are re-reading and correctly translating his own words. One of whom asked one of the biographers- why he skipped over whole paragraphs and deleted them from translations and why he incorrectly translated others.
His answer
I didn't know what he was talking about.
What he was in fact talking about Michael...would be understood and familiar to those who had studied the ICMA martial arts and some who studied Daito ryu and Koryu.
Your anger and attempt to attack me is an empty personal attack that I have grown used to. All it does is continue to reveal the profound ignorance displayed by his early biographers and students that continues to this day. Wasn't it Ueshiba himself who agreed and also stated that they didn't understand him?

At least many of them had the where with all to admit they didn't know. That sir...is intellectual honesty, without a personality driven agenda as is my discourse. We can agree to disagree and yet remain on point. Frustration, and personal invective, expressed through veiled sarcasm isn't a good tactic.

Dan

Demetrio Cereijo
10-09-2011, 12:52 PM
I'm not talking about Olympic level players either and never have. I am talking about competitors with established fight records as well as grapplers of all types who...with all due respect...are on a different level then the normal martial artists I meet.
Well, thats the problem with "normal" martial artists around you... they are in a very different level

It is those men- who can fight and who have felt it and sparred with us who have noted IP/aiki is different and feels different than the ordinary way someone delivers power and moves and offers distinct advantages. And some of those sparing sessions have been done in open rooms.
No problem with that, IP feels different and gives substantial advantage to people who have it over the ones who lack it.

Interestingly, you attempted yet another tactic or ploy to up the anti to world class figthers to vet or destroy the validity of a method while not using the same standard to completely discredit aikido.
Dan, with all due respect, there is no need to rely on world class sport figthers to discredit aikido. Recreational ones suffice.

The reason I stopped talking to many of you is that you continue to mix up two very different topics into one in order to try every perceivable angle to just be contrary, against all logic. It has lost credibility as a debating point. It is functionally dishonest. I leave it up to you to decide why that is.

As dishonest as putting some guys doing poor sanda-lite as shining examples of IP based awesomeness and atractiveness. Statements about these people like "(they) have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds" are nothing but hints about the knowledge about real fighting around here.

On it's own, IP can be tested and felt, but it is a totally different discussion of whether or not I or someone else can fight.
Thats why I'm not holding my breath waiting for IP proponents performing at the top levels of combat sports.

Let's cut to the chase. There is no interest in truth or impartial experience and reporting by hundreds of qualified people. The honest truth is that there is group of people that think IP is B.S., something that you already know or is marginally useful... plain and simple. I don't think a thousand Martial artists all stating the same thing would ever convince you of anything...why...because you don't want it to be true, for prejudicial reasons past logical examination.
Dan
Quite on the contrary, Dan. I "want" to be true (and from what I've seen IP is true) but this "IP is the thing" because you or other IP proponents can clean the mats in the country of the blind (Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs) means nothing in the combat sports field.

DH
10-09-2011, 03:20 PM
1.Well, thats the problem with "normal" martial artists around you... they are in a very different level.
2. As dishonest as putting some guys doing poor sanda-lite as shining examples of IP based awesomeness and atractiveness.
Dan, with all due respect, there is no need to rely on world class sport figthers to discredit aikido. Recreational ones suffice.
but this "IP is the thing" because you or other IP proponents can clean the mats in the country of the blind (Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs) means nothing in the combat sports field.

I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. I also have sparred with MMA rnaked fighters.

Statements about these people like "(they) have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds" are nothing but hints about the knowledge about real fighting around here.

Thats why I'm not holding my breath waiting for IP proponents performing at the top levels of combat sports.

Quite on the contrary, Dan. I "want" to be true (and from what I've seen IP is true)

Demetrio Cereijo
10-09-2011, 03:35 PM
I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. I also have sparred with MMA rnaked fighters.
I don't doubt you know and sparred with them.

Would you mind to give names so I can ask them about their opinion about the subject of IP in combat sports?

DH
10-09-2011, 03:38 PM
Post Number 53 was an error


1.Well, thats the problem with "normal" martial artists around you... they are in a very different level.
1. You have no idea who I know, where I come from and what I am capable of.
2. Dan, with all due respect, there is no need to rely on world class sport fighters to discredit aikido. Recreational ones suffice.
2. I didn't bring up world class olympians...you did. Please follow along or stop talking to me.
3. ...As dishonest as putting some guys doing poor sanda-lite as shining examples of IP based awesomeness and atractiveness. Statements about these people like "(they) have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds
3. This does not refer to me and I don't talk about instant killing and other nonsense in your reply. I have to put up with this from Mike and Michael and now you... stating things that I never said in an attempt to go after me personally. I am not going to bite to this intellectual dishonest other than to point out to anyone reading the nature and quality of those entering in stating ...I am the one pulling this B.S.

If you have nothing better to do than to misquote and lie about things I say, then don't talk to me.

4.this "IP is the thing" because you or other IP proponents can clean the mats in the country of the blind (Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs) means nothing in the combat sports field.
4. I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. Some are members here. You do a disservice to the community to ignore that or you do know and once again are being dishonest to make a point.
Secondly I have sparred with men with established fight records in open rooms with dozens of people watching who have nothing to do with Aikido. I have spoken of this many times.
a. Acknowledge it, or
b. Publicly call me a liar right here, right now.
Ignoring it and then telling me I only can deal with aikido-ka (whom you apparently despise) is once again intellectually dishonest.

As I said previously you have no real interest in any discussion with me, you are creating false statements I never made and trying to score points on some imaginary score card with a person I certainly don't recognize as having anything to do with my positions or opinions. Your creating a Phantom to use as a foil and talking to yourself.
This isn't a discussion and never was. I have better things to do than to talk with people who represent themselves this way. I've no interest in reading your further insults and inflamatory statements I have nothing to do with.
See ya
Dan

Demetrio Cereijo
10-09-2011, 05:12 PM
Post Number 53 was an error

1. You have no idea who I know, where I come from and what I am capable of.
So what?

2. I didn't bring up world class olympians...you did. Please follow along or stop talking to me.
You asked:

Why is it that the posters here over the years; have never and I mean...NEVER.... acknowledge the reports of experienced grapplers and MMA people who have stated that this feels different? When presented, they are ignored. Why?

IMO, and again, because these experienced grapplers and MMA players are not the top people at that game. When this kind of statements are done by top players, people react differently.

3. This does not refer to me and I don't talk about instant killing and other nonsense in your reply. I have to put up with this from Mike and Michael and now you... stating things that I never said in an attempt to go after me personally. I am not going to bite to this intellectual dishonest other than to point out to anyone reading the nature and quality of those entering in stating ...I am the one pulling this B.S.
No, but you are not the one calling BS on those delusional statements made by the IP proponents.

If you have nothing better to do than to misquote and lie about things I say, then don't talk to me.

4. I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. Some are members here. You do a disservice to the community to ignore that or you do know and once again are being dishonest to make a point.
BJJ bluebelts are not people who I consider accomplished grapplers.

Secondly I have sparred with men with established fight records in open rooms with dozens of people watching who have nothing to do with Aikido. I have spoken of this many times.
a. Acknowledge it, or
b. Publicly call me a liar right here, right now.
Read my previous and unedited post.

Ignoring it and then telling me I only can deal with aikido-ka (whom you apparently despise) is once again intellectually dishonest.
What I'm saying is dealing with Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs is not an homeric feat. You can deal with pros and world class sport players too, glad to hear that.

As I said previously you have no real interest in any discussion with me, you are creating false statements I never made and trying to score points on some imaginary score card with a person I certainly don't recognize as having anything to do with my positions or opinions. Your creating a Phantom to use as a foil and talking to yourself.
This isn't a discussion and never was. I have better things to do than to talk with people who represent themselves this way. I've no interest in reading your further insults and inflamatory statements I have nothing to do with.
See ya
Dan
As you like.

But, as I said before, I'm not holding my breath waiting for the IS people playing at the top levels of combat sports.

DH
10-09-2011, 06:17 PM
Well I guess I should thank you for proving my point.

So what?
You brought it up by making statements of the type of people I know, then take issue with me stating that you do not know the people I am with. You are contrary for sake of finding anything to be contrary about.

You asked:

but you are not the one calling BS on those delusional statements made by the IP proponents.
Wrong again. Not only have I corrected some of the nonsense surrounding IP, I have taken flack for that as well as flack for stating that certain things would not work with grapplers, and that the type of movement displayed by a well known guy would not work with traditonal weapons. I also took flack for stating a very popular internal guy's movements would get his ass handed to him by grapplers.
So basically I took flack from them for a view you apparently agree with and here...now taking flack from you for ..well...basically no logical reason you can think of at all. In any event...flack...both ways.
BJJ bluebelts are not people who I consider accomplished grapplers.
Here again is a great example of your non communication style. You sir....you...made the point that aikido people are push overs. I made the point that I know several who were and are Greco roman wrestlers, Blue, brown and black belt BJJers and also some ranked MMA ers. your response? Totally obtuse. A complete skating of real communication. Pot shots...


What I'm saying is dealing with Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs is not an homeric feat. You can deal with pros and world class sport players too, glad to hear that.
No sir.. you haven't made a cogent argument you were willing to then support or at least make worthy of responding to. Your opener was that if IP was not vetted by olympic world class competition than it is essentially worthless. Then you negated any gradations of skill or force levels. Not recognizing of course that all levels lead to higher levels and many things contained in one are foundational to others. This is not a coherent position with any merit. I have no idea how to communicate with you.
According to you only world class olympic grapplers are good...and anyone rising to or is a former one.. is not. And all other martial endevours are worthless.
I only want to mention that I want to have the first crack at one with a knife or sword or sticks and let's see what happens.
The basis of the argument is ridiculous. I feel like I am arguing with my sons friends.

Dan

Demetrio Cereijo
10-09-2011, 06:31 PM
I have no idea how to communicate with you.

Dan
Well, as the same happens to me: I don't have idea about how to communicate with you.

I see you've reprhased your post. Anyway...

Your opener was that if IP was not vetted by olympic world class competition than it is essentially worthless.
False.

Then you negated any gradations of skill or force levels.Not recognizing of course that all levels lead to higher levels and many things contained in one are foundational to others.
False.

Lest just say that only world class olympic grapplers are good...and anyone rising to or is a former one..
I don't understand this sentence.

And all other martial endevours are worthless.
I've never said that.

I only want to mention that I want to have the first crack at one with a knife or sword or sticks and let's see what happens.
Been there, in the street. Is not funny, but I don't regret it.

As this kind of exchanges does not lead anywhere except for making things personal, this silly sportsman begs you pardon for the disturbances.

Won't happen again. You have your way, I have mine.

Regards.

Demetrio

DH
10-09-2011, 10:45 PM
As this kind of exchanges does not lead anywhere except for making things personal, this silly sportsman begs you pardon for the disturbances. Won't happen again.
I see we do not see the arts in the same way and I have no wish to make enemies either. But I know disengenouos discourse when I see it. So we can let it rest.
You have your way, I have mine.
Regards.
Demetrio
My way...is in my tag line. O sensei said what thousands of Martial artists had said before him. You must know Yin/ yang..in his pedegogy; aiki in/yo ho.
Yin/ yang is the foundation of everything he talked about and it is whole world past Tohei. For martial artists today it is a tag line and Wingding symbal.

Those who do not know it...only know sports and athletics. They are the destroyers of the Asian arts, not the preservers.
Dan

bob_stra
10-09-2011, 10:59 PM
I can't help but feel that a lot of the acrimony could be mitigated by renaming internal strength to internal skill (purists would argue against that for a number of reasons).

Of course, that assumes genuine good will and a willingness to engage in analysis (per my original & follow up posts). I'm not sure that can be had here - cést la vie.

I do find it it kinda endearing that I'm being lectured to on the identification and merits of different types of sparring by... Aikidoka.

Sparring? For martial arts? Gosh, I sure wish I had run into you fellas before!

Profundity like that could have really helped in prepping for the 2006 Australian Judo Nationals, the Pan Pacs, Indian Rim games, training at the Kokushikan or getting my butt kick by the Tokyo U team. :rolleyes:

Oh right: my bad. That couldn't have happened. People looking into IS are all clueless, weeny noobs, in desperate need of guidance from battle hardened aikidoka. :D

DH
10-10-2011, 12:34 AM
I can't help but feel that a lot of the acrimony could be mitigated by renaming internal strength to internal skill (purists would argue against that for a number of reasons).
Of course, that assumes genuine good will and a willingness to engage in analysis (per my original & follow up posts). I'm not sure that can be had here - cést la vie.
I do find it it kinda endearing that I'm being lectured to on the identification and merits of different types of sparring by... Aikidoka.
Sparring? For martial arts? Gosh, I sure wish I had run into you fellas before!
Profundity like that could have really helped in prepping for the 2006 Australian Judo Nationals, the Pan Pacs, Indian Rim games, training at the Kokushikan or getting my butt kick by the Tokyo U team. :rolleyes:

Oh right: my bad. That couldn't have happened. People looking into IS are all clueless, weeny noobs, in desperate need of guidance from battle hardened aikidoka. :D
Hey Bob, nice dig.
I am neither an Aikido-ka, or lecturing you, or anyone else. Frankly, I only care and am here, to share with the ones who are opening their eyes and minds to the one true great thing within the martial arts.
Fighting- not grappling sports- is a different but equally interesting subject with just as few people conversant in it. I am certain you would find my abilities in that regard, quite acceptable for a conversation. :rolleyes:
As you can see I do not share Demetrio's views about much of anything; traditional arts, sports or internal strength.
Good day
Dan

bob_stra
10-10-2011, 12:55 AM
Hey Bob, nice dig.
I am neither an Aikido-ka, or lecturing you, or anyone else.


I wasn't meaning you specifically, Dan. However, if you look further up the thread, you can see some commentary made by other posters in that vein.

Instead of having a productive thread on how-what-why of IS (esp within a standing grappling context - AiKiDo's bailiwick), things seem to devolve into these side issues.

Oh well.

Chris Li
10-10-2011, 10:14 AM
I can't help but feel that a lot of the acrimony could be mitigated by renaming internal strength to internal skill (purists would argue against that for a number of reasons).

My wife started calling it "internal science" - or just "science" (actually, it was more like "that weird internal science stuff"). Since I always listen to my wife ;) that's what I call it too.

Best,

Chris

Thomas Campbell
10-10-2011, 11:01 AM
Wingding symbal.

Wingding Cymbal, maybe?

http://www.deitchley.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/monkey1.jpg

Or symbol of winding . . . like the Taiji symbol (winding, yin and yang always changing and seeking balance within wuji)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TX-WkAZZ6-s/RcJdHCI3S8I/AAAAAAAAAHE/JNd99QjqqVI/s400/yinyang2.jpg

DH
10-10-2011, 11:35 PM
From the BJJ thread

Are you saying that intent and "when one thing moves, everything moves" imply each other, or that they are two separate but mutually supportive skills? I guess I am confused what you mean by "change someones quality of movement in a way that cannot be seen", but shouldn't the whole body movement part be noticeable to the observer? Do you feel what Rickson Gracie is doing there is useful for building one, the other, both, neither, or it depends?
They are not supposed to be two different things, but even for those going down this road they often are. You can grab me somewhere and I can "shut off" and when I move I will feel normal-meaning you will feel nothing until I make large external movements. Then, I can "turn on" and you will instantly feel a quality of kuzushi even before I start to move.
Now people respond differently to that, and they run the gamut of:
Trained ukes jumping and throwing themselves
To trained ukes going with the throw,
To push hands and they try to change your change and catch the edge,
To grapplers who will feel it and try to change positions and keep moving,
To MMAers keep trying to figure out why they are late and why they feel open.
It's an advantage; sometimes just an edge, other times overwhelming so.
I stopped gauging the responses in different venues and just pay attention to me and what I am doing and how I am organized, some things require thought, others things are auto pilot.
Whether or not Rickson is focusing on it...I will only say I know some internal guys who are in BJJ and have trained with many of the best. They attended some of Rickson seminars and were surprised to hear some of his training ideas and his "feel." Beyond that I have no comment until I feel him. It isn't about fighting skill it's some different that is measurable and known.
Dan