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Shinmai
09-27-2011, 03:22 AM
Hi all.

In his book "Four Diamonds, 1024 Basic Transitions & Counters of Aikido" author Nev Sagiba lists "The Sixteen Keys" of Aikido, being 16 basic techniques.

I understand what all of the techniques are except that I don't know what the difference is between two on the list. I know what Iriminage is, but what's the difference between Iriminage and Gyaku Iriminage?

Can someone explain this to me please? Couldn't find any videos that were enlightening.

robin_jet_alt
09-27-2011, 03:42 AM
Not sure if this is what you are referring to, but I have heard the kokyu-nage pictured in the link below referred to as irimi-nage on occasion. It is backwards (gyaku) when compared to a regular irimi-nage.

http://www.threeriversaikido.co.uk/images/gallery/HitohiroSaitoSensei/h_kokyu%20ho.jpg

gates
09-27-2011, 04:19 AM
Not sure if this is what you are referring to, but I have heard the kokyu-nage pictured in the link below referred to as irimi-nage on occasion. It is backwards (gyaku) when compared to a regular irimi-nage.

http://www.threeriversaikido.co.uk/images/gallery/HitohiroSaitoSensei/h_kokyu%20ho.jpg

Not sure if this helps but...
In iwama ryu thats morotedori kokyuho. Looks a lot like a Sokumen iriminage in other styles, but it is quite different in how it is applied.
Keith

Tim Ruijs
09-27-2011, 04:28 AM
Gyaku - opposite?

gates
09-27-2011, 05:02 AM
Doesn't mean performed from gyaku hanmi does it?

Tim Ruijs
09-27-2011, 05:41 AM
nah, that does not make sense. aihanmi iriminage and gyaku hanmi iriminage both as basic technique?

graham christian
09-27-2011, 06:02 AM
nah, that does not make sense. aihanmi iriminage and gyaku hanmi iriminage both as basic technique?

Makes sense to me. One would be using tai sabaki to enter.

Regards.G.

Jory Boling
09-27-2011, 08:08 AM
Would the gyaku version be the one where you move in front of the uke at the end instead of them moving around you? Sometimes it looks like you are putting their lead arm around them like a scarf. Does that make sense?

Tim Ruijs
09-27-2011, 08:31 AM
Makes sense to me. One would be using tai sabaki to enter.
but,...then would not tai sabaki be the basic technique...?

Would the gyaku version be the one where you move in front of the uke at the end instead of them moving around you? Sometimes it looks like you are putting their lead arm around them like a scarf. Does that make sense? The image I posted shows something like that only do you use the other (free) arm to irimi. But yes I think it is something like that....

robin_jet_alt
09-27-2011, 08:56 AM
Not sure if this helps but...
In iwama ryu thats morotedori kokyuho. Looks a lot like a Sokumen iriminage in other styles, but it is quite different in how it is applied.
Keith

Well, as far as I'm concerned, it's kokyu-ho if you do it as an exercise, and kokyu-nage if you finish it as a throw. I have done it from morote-dori, ai-hanmi and gyakuhanmi katatedori, ryotedori, shomen-uchi, yokomen uchi, ryo-mune-tori, ushiro-tori, ushiro-kata tori, tsuki, ken-tori, jo-tori, and tanto-tori. Forgive me if I forgot any, but I don't think this is limited to morotedori.

As for whether it could be an irimi-nage, I don't see why not. There is a lot of irimi in it, and it's just a name after all.

phitruong
09-27-2011, 09:25 AM
I understand what all of the techniques are except that I don't know what the difference is between two on the list. I know what Iriminage is, but what's the difference between Iriminage and Gyaku Iriminage?
.

only know regular iriminage and sokomen iriminage. sokomen is similar to back-fist into someone face as they passed by. the regular iriminage is similar to forward stroke of swimming. you see a number of different ones here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g_LkyB43Ng&feature=related mostly the same with slight variation at the beginning.

gates
09-27-2011, 10:37 AM
Well, as far as I'm concerned, it's kokyu-ho if you do it as an exercise, and kokyu-nage if you finish it as a throw. I have done it from morote-dori, ai-hanmi and gyakuhanmi katatedori, ryotedori, shomen-uchi, yokomen uchi, ryo-mune-tori, ushiro-tori, ushiro-kata tori, tsuki, ken-tori, jo-tori, and tanto-tori. Forgive me if I forgot any, but I don't think this is limited to morotedori.

As for whether it could be an irimi-nage, I don't see why not. There is a lot of irimi in it, and it's just a name after all.

The person in the picture looks like Hitohiro Saito Sensei but I could be wrong. I agree the name is a label it really doesn't matter what you call it, it is what it is. However in Iwama Ryu, this technique is called Morote Dori Kokyu ho, again you are right it is an exercise practised at the start of every class in every Iwama Style Dojo. From any other attack it is kokyu nage. It is a 'gateway' technique.

graham christian
09-27-2011, 10:54 AM
but,...then would not tai sabaki be the basic technique...?

The image I posted shows something like that only do you use the other (free) arm to irimi. But yes I think it is something like that....

Hi Tim. Tai sabaki is a motion not a technique. Therefore it would put you in the position to tenkan and perform the technique or iriminage. It is very basic when you look at it motion wise.

To get to one side of the body you have two choices depending on which foot is foreward ie; posture. You can enter irimi/tenkan or if the other posture then tai sabaki. That's the simplicity I see.

Regards.G.

sakumeikan
09-27-2011, 02:41 PM
Hi all.

In his book "Four Diamonds, 1024 Basic Transitions & Counters of Aikido" author Nev Sagiba lists "The Sixteen Keys" of Aikido, being 16 basic techniques.

I understand what all of the techniques are except that I don't know what the difference is between two on the list. I know what Iriminage is, but what's the difference between Iriminage and Gyaku Iriminage?

Can someone explain this to me please? Couldn't find any videos that were enlightening.

Dear Cedric,
Not seeing your book I cannot say for certain what you are querying.Irimi Nage is the method oof throwing a partner by entering into the partners centre and throwing you partner.Gyaku [Hamni ] irimi nage means that the partner has a Gyaku posture [left hand of uke to right wrist of Tori and vice versa,]then irimi nage can be executed by tori at jodan [upper level , chudan[middle level ] and gedan[lower level] as required.
Hope this helps, Joe.

sakumeikan
09-27-2011, 02:45 PM
Not sure if this helps but...
In iwama ryu thats morotedori kokyuho. Looks a lot like a Sokumen iriminage in other styles, but it is quite different in how it is applied.
Keith

Keith ,
If uke is holding with one hand to partners one wrist your throw could be classified asa sokumen waza ie penterating the centre of the uke as if using a spear thrust.Your illustration is indeed morote dori. Joe.

grondahl
09-27-2011, 03:55 PM
The person in the picture looks like Hitohiro Saito Sensei but I could be wrong. I agree the name is a label it really doesn't matter what you call it, it is what it is. However in Iwama Ryu, this technique is called Morote Dori Kokyu ho, again you are right it is an exercise practised at the start of every class in every Iwama Style Dojo. From any other attack it is kokyu nage. It is a 'gateway' technique.

Itīs actually kokyu-ho from a lot of other attacks than morotedori but it can also be a kokyunage. If done with a direct entry (with hitoemi, as in sixth and seventh suburi) itīs very like what others call sokomen iriminage.

robin_jet_alt
09-27-2011, 05:48 PM
The person in the picture looks like Hitohiro Saito Sensei but I could be wrong. I agree the name is a label it really doesn't matter what you call it, it is what it is. However in Iwama Ryu, this technique is called Morote Dori Kokyu ho, again you are right it is an exercise practised at the start of every class in every Iwama Style Dojo. From any other attack it is kokyu nage. It is a 'gateway' technique.

Yes, it is Saito Hirohito sensei

Shinmai
09-27-2011, 11:29 PM
Dear Cedric,
Not seeing your book I cannot say for certain what you are querying.

The book is available from the Aikido Journal website, and the full description can be found here (http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/08/13/four-diamonds-1024-now-an-ebook-2/).

I do not have the full book, just the free sample PDF. It's only a few pages, but it lists what the author calls "The Sixteen Keys", which is a list of 16 basic techniques. A footnote to that list states that he has used "the most common contemporary names of these techniques", and acknowledges that there may be naming variations.

Here is the download link (http://budo-gear.com/leonbooks/downloads_free/1024_free.pdf) for the free sample.

robin_jet_alt
09-28-2011, 12:19 AM
Thanks Cedric,

I'm a bit confused as to what he means by obiotoshi, and also the difference between the 2 variations of sumiotoshi. I've never heard of obiotoshi (presumably you grab their belt???), and I've seen so many different things referred to as sumiotoshi that it's hard to know what he means with the 2 variations.

Shinmai
09-28-2011, 01:18 AM
I'm a bit confused as to what he means by obiotoshi, and also the difference between the 2 variations of sumiotoshi. I've never heard of obiotoshi (presumably you grab their belt???), and I've seen so many different things referred to as sumiotoshi that it's hard to know what he means with the 2 variations.

I watched quite a few YouTube videos to gain an understanding of these, superficial as my understanding probably is at this stage.

sakumeikan
09-28-2011, 04:23 AM
Thanks Cedric,

I'm a bit confused as to what he means by obiotoshi, and also the difference between the 2 variations of sumiotoshi. I've never heard of obiotoshi (presumably you grab their belt???), and I've seen so many different things referred to as sumiotoshi that it's hard to know what he means with the 2 variations.
Dear Robin,
Tori enters to the side of Uke-lower hand grabs hold of ukes belt, maintains tight control of the uke via belt, inserts knee behind uke and drops[otoshi ] uke backwards over his knee.Obi [belt ]otoshi [dropping motion ].This method ensures a good connection between Uke /Tori .It a strong waza. Tori can also take ukes neck and control the neck in conjunction with the belt hold-a variation-slightly severe method here. Cheers, Joe.

robin_jet_alt
09-28-2011, 09:06 AM
Dear Robin,
Tori enters to the side of Uke-lower hand grabs hold of ukes belt, maintains tight control of the uke via belt, inserts knee behind uke and drops[otoshi ] uke backwards over his knee.Obi [belt ]otoshi [dropping motion ].This method ensures a good connection between Uke /Tori .It a strong waza. Tori can also take ukes neck and control the neck in conjunction with the belt hold-a variation-slightly severe method here. Cheers, Joe.

Thanks. I can sort of picture it, I think.