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graham christian
09-24-2011, 08:29 PM
So much discussion on power I thought I'd give another perspective.

As I see it following the desire for power and more power is a fools errand as far as Aikido is concerned. As I see it I see people debating and believing they are achieving something yet to me no matter how much they try to justify this search they are unaware they are merely standing still or even going backwards.

Can anyone describe what power is spiritually?

I have seen explanations based on many different things discussed but all boil down to superior something that in turn therefore can dominate by choice the less superior. Whether it be through better skills, better education, better .....well whatever.

So we are still looking at the ability to dominate, to control, to be in a position where you have choice.

Is that power? I believe it is stupidity therefore if you really want to be ultimately stupid then that is the path to follow.

Within that logic it means if you are not as described you are weak, unable to control in a good manner, without choice. Thus if you believe this logic then no matter how far 'advanced' you think you are getting you are actually still in the same trap, the same prison, the same ignorance.

Spiritual has nothing to do with such things and thus cannot be understood by such a mind.

Therefore if someone were to do a martial art based on spiritual principles those into power would be blind to what they are being presented with.

Spiritual well being has been the responsibility of religion since time immemorial and thus all religions have mentioned things of ultimate or true power and principles of such that you should incorporate into your lives. Ueshiba did no different.

The problem with religions was that those who recognised those truths were followed by those who could only but translate them in terms of power and control and the feeling of superiority. The same old trap, the same old game, the same old ignorance.

Thus the same pattern follows in Aikido. Thus the same pattern follows on the subject of Aiki. Nothings changed, merely the same cycle of the destruction of truth. Caused by reasoning that can't see past that logic of power.

So we can build bombs and create advanced things with science yet we are still stuck in ignorance thinking we are advanced.

The secret to Aikido is it has nothing to do with power or strength internal or otherwise.

Regards.G.

PhillyKiAikido
09-24-2011, 09:24 PM
It's a good one, thanks Graham!

"In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; " Isaiah 30:15-16

gregstec
09-24-2011, 09:57 PM
So much discussion on power I thought I'd give another perspective.

Can anyone describe what power is spiritually?

Regards.G.

Hey, I can relate to this side of the spectrum as well - what is spiritual power? how about the capability of well balanced fullness of self that can calmly withstand the onslaught of the chaotic external phenomena in all conditions. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and it is totally within the dimension of it is what it is now. :)

Greg

Abasan
09-24-2011, 10:05 PM
Not everyone is in aikido because they want to learn aikido. Some aspire to be just like role models who they see as extremely powerful warriors who can effortlessly defeat their opponents with seemingly miraculous nonchalance.

After practicing though, they find out that the typical aikido they learn doesn't let them do that. And so they set out to find the missing piece... I.e. Aiki. When they can't find it in the aikido setting, they search for it elsewhere, other arts other teachers. And they see it as truly wonderful, that eventually it becomes a goal to itself.

The difference between aikido and other aiki arts is the philosophy behind it. Take that away and what you are doing won't strictly speaking be aikido. It might look the same but the spirit will be different. Just like a competition could be something to honour your opponent and build him, it could easily be used to annihilate him.

Nothing wrong with pursuing aiki too. In fact aikido should be of three parts. Physical, aiki and spirit. Somehow along the way, most ppl are only being taught the physical and that's what has gotten other schools who do have aiki laughing at us. Still you can't give up spirit if you never had it in the first place.

DH
09-24-2011, 10:14 PM
「私の武産の合気は、宗教から出て来たのかというとそうではない。真の武産から宗教を照らすのです。未完の宗教を完成へと導く案内であります」
"It would not be correct to say that my Takumusu Aiki emerged from religion. True budo illuminates religion. It guides incomplete religion to completion."
And what is his idea of true budo?
My art will not be recognized as a true budo and will not taken seriously without power.

Chris Li
09-24-2011, 11:31 PM
「私の武産の合気は、宗教から出て来たのかというとそうではない。真の武産から宗教を 照らすのです。未完の宗教を完成へと導く案内であります」
"It would not be correct to say that my Takumusu Aiki emerged from religion. True budo illuminates religion. It guides incomplete religion to completion."
And what is his idea of true budo?
My art will not be recognized as a true budo and will not taken seriously without power.

And here I think that Ueshiba is pointing to something important - that his spirituality was completed, given substance, through his budo training. Not the other way around.

Western philosophy/spirituality tends to start with an idea or an ideal. That's a good thing, and an important thing, but without some way to get there all you've got is - happy thoughts and pixie dust.

「私は合氣道より他にこの世を立て直す方法は知らないであります」

"I know of no other way to reform the world than through Aikido."

It was Ueshiba's martial training in Aiki that gave substance and reality to his spiritual ideals. No Aiki = No Spirituality

Think about it. How hard is it to really change something about yourself? How many people can successfully do something as simple and superficial as losing weight or quitting smoking? If changing an external habit is that hard, how hard is actual fundamental change going to be?

Happy thoughts just aren't going to get you there - it requires extensive conditioning over a prolonged period of time. Ueshiba found it in Aiki Tanren.

Best,

Chris

Abasan
09-25-2011, 12:47 AM
Yes but I believe he's talking about a stage in aiki development that goes beyond the internal body manipulation.

He attributes his power ultimately comes from the universe/kami. When a man who has unquestionably defeated some of the most powerful men attribute his victory comes from God and not due to his own skill/power, he basically has let go of his ego. And in that instance fighting no longer exists in his life.

Ultimately he is not saying I need power to defeat others. He is saying I need not defeat others when they are basically challenging Gods power. Granted he wouldn't have started down this conclusion without having his eyes opened to the world of aiki, but he has transcended that level and not just focused on it as an end to itself.

Regardless, all of us should travel through the exploration of this baser level of aiki. And if it comes from others, the instruction is no less useful. Only we must retain a goal to understand beyond that if we were to really follow the aikido way...

Chris Li
09-25-2011, 01:49 AM
He attributes his power ultimately comes from the universe/kami. When a man who has unquestionably defeated some of the most powerful men attribute his victory comes from God and not due to his own skill/power, he basically has let go of his ego. And in that instance fighting no longer exists in his life.

Ultimately he is not saying I need power to defeat others. He is saying I need not defeat others when they are basically challenging Gods power. Granted he wouldn't have started down this conclusion without having his eyes opened to the world of aiki, but he has transcended that level and not just focused on it as an end to itself.

Regardless, all of us should travel through the exploration of this baser level of aiki. And if it comes from others, the instruction is no less useful. Only we must retain a goal to understand beyond that if we were to really follow the aikido way...

No offense, but I think that's way off. All rose colored glasses aside, he could be immensely egotistical.

Remember the quotation that Dan cited - he specifically said that his power did not come from religion. Also, remember that he specifically discouraged people from studying his religion.

As for taking it to a "higher" level - that kind of thinking is ultimately, I think, misleading, and perpetuates a misunderstanding of where his Aiki came from.

For example, check out this translation of a scroll hanging in one of the most conservative Daito-ryu dojo around - one that I can guarantee was not influenced in any way by Ueshiba:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=414048&postcount=27

Best,

Chris

graham christian
09-25-2011, 05:59 AM
[/QUOTE]There is no enemy for Ueshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them. There are neither opponents nor enemies for true budo. True budo is to be one with the universe; that is to be united with the Center of the universe.
A mind to serve for the peace of all human beings in the world is needed in Aikido, and not the mind of one who wishes to be strong or who practices only to fell an opponent.[QUOTE]

Of course the principles were not taken from a Religion as they are the truths all religions point to. Thus you will find them spoken of by Buddha, Jesus, Yogis etc.

All of Aikido has been described using terminology and relating to Kami, God, the universal, heaven, etc. by Ueshiba.

In true harmony there is no power there is only oneness, thus no opponent, no need for against in any way.

Some strive for this and and follow the way, some don't, yet inside beyond their 'reason' they too know they do.

Regards.G.

Abasan
09-25-2011, 06:14 AM
Chris,

Thanks for the link. I would not be able to say whether osensei's skills is poorer by Sagawa or daitoryu's standard and probably not many could say that save for the two gentlemen themselves. However historically osensei's teacher held him I high regard, using him much as osensei himself used tohei. Thus one could safely say that DR opinions aside osensei was a good exponent. Good enough to impress a whole lot of people outside too.

Now with regards the outreaching influence of an art deemed to be a key element for world harmony, aiki through DR has been slow to spread. The art itself was very much held in obscurity until Aikido created waves across the globe. That maybe because of various coincidental factors, but truly it is an art seen to be incongruent to our soul searching. An art that fosters a feeling of mutual development, an art that could be explored and entices people who generally would have shunned such martial practice. That in itself speaks volumes to Aikido's far reaching ability to propagate harmony.

The reason why I think that osensei firmly believed in a higher level of aiki, one that comes closer to the unification with God is because that was what he actually revealed I his last three days on earth to his students. Yet of the 100s of senior yudansha's invited to here his 'secret', almost none stayed till the third day. Most of them dismissed his ramblings as that of a crazy old man.

Here was a man on his death bed, physically weaker than at any time save in his infancy, yet was still able to throw his students even more strongly than when he was fit as a fiddle. He also mentioned to some close senior students how he is unable to convince the vast majority of his Japanese students on the source of all power coming from God and to surrender to Him was the ultimate takemusu aiki. No one believed him then, no one believed him now.

Man can only the fruit of his labour and can only value things he can explain. The mysterious and the enigmatic is now very much a sitting target for every rational and scientific inquest. Faith is fleeting.

I believe that that is not a problem at all. Every person here need to make their own way towards understanding. And learning aiki from the more 'earthly' form is a decent beginning. At least for me it is. I think we will go through that path and for some of us, may even try to glean a deeper understanding. You have to start somewhere. And the most important thing, is to keep having an open mind. A lot of people ridiculed IP some years back until they got shown first hand on it's truth. Nowadays people hold on to it like it's gospel. Who is to say, that it's going to be any different with the more spiritual aspect?

graham christian
09-25-2011, 08:03 AM
Hey, I can relate to this side of the spectrum as well - what is spiritual power? how about the capability of well balanced fullness of self that can calmly withstand the onslaught of the chaotic external phenomena in all conditions. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and it is totally within the dimension of it is what it is now. :)

Greg

In harmony there is nothing to withstand.

The secret of Aikido is that there is no power.

Regards.G.

gates
09-25-2011, 08:14 AM
Graham
Firstly thank you for starting an interesting thread.

The background to this conversation seems to be in part from a disagreement as to the origins of Ueshiba power.

I think it is critical that we are clear in the distinction between the physical skills he possessed and the spiritual awareness he was renowned for. Nobody in their right mind would deny that much/most of Ueshiba's physical martial skills came from Daito Ryu. Also I doubt anybody would question that the ongoing spiritual training enhanced his understanding. Aikido is a blending of these two reference points. Is it really necessary to argue which is more significant. From my point of view they are both equally important to Aikido in its entirety. There is little doubt in my mind that the spiritual aspects of Aikido and the physical aspects go hand in hand and both are worse off without the other. They are not mutually exclusive, not the contrary from an Aikido perspective they are dependent upon one another.

Keith

SteveTrinkle
09-25-2011, 08:16 AM
In harmony there is nothing to withstand.

The secret of Aikido is that there is no power.

Regards.G.

The power of no power.

graham christian
09-25-2011, 09:56 AM
Graham
Firstly thank you for starting an interesting thread.

The background to this conversation seems to be in part from a disagreement as to the origins of Ueshiba power.

I think it is critical that we are clear in the distinction between the physical skills he possessed and the spiritual awareness he was renowned for. Nobody in their right mind would deny that much/most of Ueshiba's physical martial skills came from Daito Ryu. Also I doubt anybody would question that the ongoing spiritual training enhanced his understanding. Aikido is a blending of these two reference points. Is it really necessary to argue which is more significant. From my point of view they are both equally important to Aikido in its entirety. There is little doubt in my mind that the spiritual aspects of Aikido and the physical aspects go hand in hand and both are worse off without the other. They are not mutually exclusive, not the contrary from an Aikido perspective they are dependent upon one another.

Keith

Hi Keith.
Thank you for the interest.

The background to this thread is partly as you say but much more to do with my understanding of Aikido.

I agree that the spiritual, the mental and the physical go hand in hand. I talk of the spiritual as it is the least understood not because it is mutually exclusive.

It would not in fact be true to say that most of his martial skills came from Daito ryu in my opinion as they came from many sources. In fact he equated Kendo more with Aikido at times. However, the form of techniques are more related to Daito ryu.

For me only the understanding of the spiritual will lead to understanding his Aikido for the spiritual principles, the universal principles he was insisting need to be learned and understood lie on the path he described as Aikido.

From such a view the fallacy of power can be seen as used by ego.

As Aikido for Ueshiba was more of a path towards enlightenment then an egoless view is vital to it's full understanding.

Ego follows the opposite path and justifies it as the same or even superior for such is the way of ego.

True spirit does not seek power for it is untouchable and thus power to me is the complete opposite of Harmony.

I am therefore not against such ego style aiki or cravings for power, I am more interested in sharing with. If ego sees this as opposition or whatever then such is to be expected.

In my view all Aikidoka of any significant time of training have experienced glimpses of what I say during their practice and have been shocked or astounded for at these times it feels like you did nothing.

It is shocking or astounding because it doesn't fit the persons assumed view at the time, to do with strength and power and physical something.

These points are the entrance points towards what Ueshiba was saying and doing.

I think ego seeing this can only translate it as power and want it and thus misses the point completely.

So although you may or may not agree with how I put it I do agree with what you say. It is critically important to distinguish both the skills and the spiritual awareness.

Such is my view.

Regards.G.

gates
09-25-2011, 10:13 AM
Graham,
You have every right to your opinion.
One rhetorical question, politely asked, before you get verbally mobbed.
Did O'Sensei ever learn Kendo?
Keith

gregstec
09-25-2011, 10:23 AM
No offense, but I think that's way off. All rose colored glasses aside, he could be immensely egotistical.

Remember the quotation that Dan cited - he specifically said that his power did not come from religion. Also, remember that he specifically discouraged people from studying his religion.

As for taking it to a "higher" level - that kind of thinking is ultimately, I think, misleading, and perpetuates a misunderstanding of where his Aiki came from.

For example, check out this translation of a scroll hanging in one of the most conservative Daito-ryu dojo around - one that I can guarantee was not influenced in any way by Ueshiba:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=414048&postcount=27

Best,

Chris

Interesting link, but there is no secret or surprise there - we have all heard various aspects of that from many different sources.

So the universal message is that through aiki we can bring peace and harmony to the world. Pretty much a core tenet of all religions. The question then is how do we apply that? Do we take a pragmatic, religious, spiritual, or scientific approach ? The answer of course will be based on the individual and what their beliefs are and how it all fits into their model of existence.

Greg

gregstec
09-25-2011, 10:31 AM
The power of no power.

To Graham,

Yeah, what Steve said :p

Greg

hughrbeyer
09-25-2011, 10:40 AM
...check out this translation of a scroll hanging in one of the most conservative Daito-ryu dojo around - one that I can guarantee was not influenced in any way by Ueshiba:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=414048&postcount=27

One should use the principle of aiki to harmonize with and de-escalate those who threaten violence. In the case where an enemy has already initiated an attack, one should rely completely on the principle of aiki to blend with or redirect their attack, which in turn produces a state of harmony.

Interesting that Sagawa Sensei validates the idea of using aiki in non-martial, or at least non-physical, ways to deal with conflict.

gregstec
09-25-2011, 10:54 AM
In harmony there is nothing to withstand.

The secret of Aikido is that there is no power.

Regards.G.

Well, now, would not one way to withstand be to join or harmonize?

Greg

Chris Li
09-25-2011, 11:35 AM
Interesting that Sagawa Sensei validates the idea of using aiki in non-martial, or at least non-physical, ways to deal with conflict.

As did Sokaku Takeda, interestingly enough.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
09-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Graham,
You have every right to your opinion.
One rhetorical question, politely asked, before you get verbally mobbed.
Did O'Sensei ever learn Kendo?
Keith

Thank you.
I would say he did as well as other kenjutsu. Was he not known for being very well adept with the sword and spear? Apart from that he had many kendo friends and as far as is written defeated a kendo master at one time. He went on to develope his own aiki ken style and as I said implied those principles involved were very much a part of Aikido. But all that is a separate topic for another thread. Historians would know much more data on that subject.

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-25-2011, 11:56 AM
To Graham,

Yeah, what Steve said :p

Greg

Indeed. A nice zen saying to adopt.

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-25-2011, 12:04 PM
As did Sokaku Takeda, interestingly enough.

Best,

Chris

Unfortunately I see no similarities between Takeda and Ueshiba.

Regards.G.

DH
09-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Graham. If you want, I will pay for your subscription to Aikido Journal, but only if you will commit to reading the interviews with all of Ueshiba's prewar Deshi as a start. Or I will send you the book. Whether or not you chose to move on to the founder himself is up to you. Your information seems seriously flawed and may be skewed from a too narrow perspective. I think this will help elevate the discussion. We can still agree or disagree but I think it will at least broaden your perspective. I have had friends of mine in the Chinese community do the same for me, as I was researching. Knowledge and information is power.

Consider this, if the history of your founder matters, then, I think it will help you in conversing here with more well informed people, and give you a better understanding of the art, where Ueshiba got his information and Doka from and how it all fits into a bigger picture.
Would you like a Subscription to AJ? I will email Stan tonight for you.
Dan

DH
09-25-2011, 01:19 PM
No offense, but I think that's way off. All rose colored glasses aside, he could be immensely egotistical.
Remember the quotation that Dan cited - he specifically said that his power did not come from religion. Also, remember that he specifically discouraged people from studying his religion.

As for taking it to a "higher" level - that kind of thinking is ultimately, I think, misleading, and perpetuates a misunderstanding of where his Aiki came from.
For example, check out this translation of a scroll hanging in one of the most conservative Daito-ryu dojo around - one that I can guarantee was not influenced in any way by Ueshiba:
here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=414048&postcount=27)

Best,

Chris
Hi Chris
It is rather telling that he also expanded to the larger picture as was typical with the work under discussion in Asia. We can see that from Sagawa and in the closing comments of Takeda in his newspaper interview on Aikido Journal. For those who are not members, AJ remains the best $30 you can spend for information on Aikido. Imagine where people would be in the art if they actually studied its past.

The root of the problem for so many n the soft arts; Daito ryu Aikido, taiji etc., is their misunderstanding of the word "power." It's why they run away from it. They are stuck in the same understanding they walked in the door with; that power is force to topple someone or something. The mystery for so many of these people, is turned into the wonder for those who let go of their strength to walk into real power, once they have discovered in yo. And that has nothing to do with the type of power so many are discussing. Here we are in 2011, and still so many Aikido-ka do not know what soft power truly is. For those in hot pursuit of in yo ho, what makes power in them is aiki in them. Then and only then, can it be adequately expressed outside of them.

It wasn't only Ueshiba who "used" his understanding of in/yo to fuel his religion, I believe he was used by Deguchi, at every opportunity. It seems at every turn, from getting him a bigger house, to always talking to him and about him regarding his power (not his own mind you) that in itself makes yet another case for Ueshiba's own later admontions to his deshi about in yo ho.
Like Deguchi, many modern adepts have obviously never really embraced in/yo ho, they have no real concept of it in use, and therefore no real power to affect the universe, much less the kid attacking them in the dojo. Their understanding is focusing on the yin side of yang and not expressing the balance he always discussed. Their idea of soft is...vacant, evading, or leading. This is a well known problem in Asian students and Westerners alike, it's yang or all yin. In dealing with the energy of an attacker; their attempts to resolve duality are all external Thus their achievement of a balanced state is outside of them and not inside.
It was the blending of the two that made manifest Ueshiba's ability and why he said it perfected his religion and not the other way round. Hence In yo ho, comes before and is combined with spiritual power. Apparently he considered that spiritual power as budo, is not an acceptable substitute for Budo.

Dan

graham christian
09-25-2011, 03:24 PM
Graham. If you want, I will pay for your subscription to Aikido Journal, but only if you will commit to reading the interviews with all of Ueshiba's prewar Deshi as a start. Or I will send you the book. Whether or not you chose to move on to the founder himself is up to you. Your information seems seriously flawed and may be skewed from a too narrow perspective. I think this will help elevate the discussion. We can still agree or disagree but I think it will at least broaden your perspective. I have had friends of mine in the Chinese community do the same for me, as I was researching. Knowledge and information is power.

Consider this, if the history of your founder matters, then, I think it will help you in conversing here with more well informed people, and give you a better understanding of the art, where Ueshiba got his information and Doka from and how it all fits into a bigger picture.
Would you like a Subscription to AJ? I will email Stan tonight for you.
Dan

Unfortunately first I must refer you to the following.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=293145&postcount=51

Regards.G,

DH
09-25-2011, 03:42 PM
I understand.
I think it might be a step forward. I am a very reasonable person. To be frank, I found it almost impossible to talk to you about certain issues-not because of a difference of opinion, they happen here all the time, but rather of certain inconsistencies in your argument, and when you joined in with Tony with the insults and sarcasm, I wrote you off.
I stridently disagree with you on some things, but I have wondered what you might think with exposure to greater material, and maybe even eventually a meeting.
What do I do and where do I go Graham? I am with Aikido teachers in their dojos all over and it almost always turns out very well.
Hey, at least know this, it's a sincere offer. I gain nothing from it. I honestly think you need to research a bit more to see what many of us are talking about and where Ueshiba's ideas came from. Not the least of which will be you seeing where many of his doka come from Chinese material. No one would be more delighted than I to be able to have more informed discussions later. Many of us have formed different views on things and we agree/ disagree on issues. At the very least, while it might not change your views I think you will at least have much a more informed view and solidify why you think that way.
To add a touch of humor, I am either arming the enemy or making a truce. I bet on the later. I know from experience both here and in person that it is always better to think the best and try to extend a hand...even when it has been bitten off in the past, I usually manage to build a bridge in person.

Dan

graham christian
09-25-2011, 06:00 PM
I find it my duty to publicly say that Dan and I have been in touch via pm. As it was he who publicly offered a hand of friendship I can only say that with honour and respect I accept.

May our communications with each other be better in the future.

In Humility.G.

mathewjgano
09-25-2011, 06:25 PM
Very nice! This peanut in the gallery would just like to say I think this is a great example of spiritual power; a great example of building meaningful connection; the sword that "cuts together."
Respect to you both.

gregstec
09-25-2011, 09:50 PM
I find it my duty to publicly say that Dan and I have been in touch via pm. As it was he who publicly offered a hand of friendship I can only say that with honour and respect I accept.

May our communications with each other be better in the future.

In Humility.G.

WOW! - you got a private email form Dan - congratulations! that is a rare cosmic occurrence :D :D :D :D :D :D

(ps: a private joke folks to Dan - nothing to do with Graham - don't read anything into it :) )

Greg

Tim Ruijs
09-26-2011, 02:20 AM
Nice!

Graham, I am curious though what has changed on your side. What I read in to your comments is you trying to have an open mind?

Dan, muchos respect. A good teacher is exemplary is his ways... ;)

graham christian
09-26-2011, 04:04 PM
Nice!

Graham, I am curious though what has changed on your side. What I read in to your comments is you trying to have an open mind?

Dan, muchos respect. A good teacher is exemplary is his ways... ;)

Ha, ha. You're not a cat by any chance are you Tim?

Regards.G.

hughrbeyer
09-26-2011, 10:30 PM
If it's gonna be all sweetness and light around here, I need a barf bag. What next? Dan and Mike playing kissy-face in the park?

Good on you guys.

Janet Rosen
09-26-2011, 11:47 PM
Must be time for a ki war :-)

DH
09-26-2011, 11:54 PM
Must be time for a ki war :-)
No thanks. Kind of calm isn't it?
I was just enjoying reading your signature line.
"Peace will enter when hate is gone".....Percy Mayfield

All the best
Dan

Janet Rosen
09-27-2011, 12:55 AM
No thanks. Kind of calm isn't it?
I was just enjoying reading your signature line.
"Peace will enter when hate is gone".....Percy Mayfield

All the best
Dan

Percy Mayfield, the Poet of the Blues... :-)
Still hoping to catch up with you maybe early next year if the budget permits any traveling (wondering if Jet Blue will start flying between SF and Seattle?)

Janet Rosen
09-27-2011, 12:57 AM
Percy Mayfield, the Poet of the Blues... :-)
Still hoping to catch up with you maybe early next year if the budget permits any traveling (wondering if Jet Blue will start flying between SF and Seattle?)

Oh shit. Just realized on the heels of you springing for Graham's sub to AJ this could be (mis)construed as a ploy or plea!!! Totally not!

Tim Ruijs
09-27-2011, 02:21 AM
meow! kitty got sharp claws...

Well, it raises questions when two parties both with firm ideas on what's what are at first head to head (nearly on non speaking terms) and then put their hands together and can see eye to eye. I thinks it is admirable. So I hope to live another day when being curious to the common ground.

kewms
09-27-2011, 02:48 AM
So much discussion on power I thought I'd give another perspective.

As I see it following the desire for power and more power is a fools errand as far as Aikido is concerned. As I see it I see people debating and believing they are achieving something yet to me no matter how much they try to justify this search they are unaware they are merely standing still or even going backwards.

Can anyone describe what power is spiritually?


A waterfall has no "desire for power and more power." Yet it is, undeniably, powerful. Similarly, that place at the meeting of heaven and earth, that place where the Harmony of the Universe is realized...there is great power at that place where O Sensei stood.

Whether you seek power or not, you'll find it if you go far enough down the path. If you don't, maybe you're on the wrong path.

Katherine

Tim Ruijs
09-27-2011, 03:37 AM
A waterfall has no intend at all. It just is. It moves according to the natural laws (gravity, friction, collision, etc).

In a conflict situation I can justify this approach (i.e. be without intend) to balance out, create common ground and hopefully resolve the situation. But in normal situations...I am not so sure.

Spiritual power is joy, determination, self reflection/awareness (also see recent column als Lynn Seiser) and compassion.

graham christian
09-27-2011, 05:52 AM
A waterfall has no "desire for power and more power." Yet it is, undeniably, powerful. Similarly, that place at the meeting of heaven and earth, that place where the Harmony of the Universe is realized...there is great power at that place where O Sensei stood.

Whether you seek power or not, you'll find it if you go far enough down the path. If you don't, maybe you're on the wrong path.

Katherine

Do you think so? Using the waterfall as having no desire for power agrees with what I say.

If a waterfall desired more power it would be self defeating.

Is it undeniably powerful? It sounds to me you seek such alas.

There is no power and there is no superiority. In my view those who seek such are off the path unfortunately.

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-27-2011, 05:59 AM
meow! kitty got sharp claws...

Well, it raises questions when two parties both with firm ideas on what's what are at first head to head (nearly on non speaking terms) and then put their hands together and can see eye to eye. I thinks it is admirable. So I hope to live another day when being curious to the common ground.

A good Aikido lesson for you Tim. It shows that conflict and fighting is merely an illusion.

Regards.G.

Tim Ruijs
09-27-2011, 08:28 AM
Graham,

Still, I am glad to witness this fruitful continuation. I must say I feel the lesson was more applicable to you both than me. I am just too curious:o
...water under the bridge (from unpretentious waterfall that just playfully reflects the sunshine...).

phitruong
09-27-2011, 09:50 AM
A good Aikido lesson for you Tim. It shows that conflict and fighting is merely an illusion.

Regards.G.

an illusion that really hurts when the other bugger's strike connected to your body.

kewms
09-27-2011, 09:51 AM
Do you think so? Using the waterfall as having no desire for power agrees with what I say.

If a waterfall desired more power it would be self defeating.

Is it undeniably powerful? It sounds to me you seek such alas.

There is no power and there is no superiority. In my view those who seek such are off the path unfortunately.

Regards.G.

Missing my point. Why am I not surprised...

If you study waterfalls, you will become acquainted with power, whether power is your reason for studying them or not. Likewise with aiki.

Of course, I guess I'm making a brash assumption that those who study aikido are in fact interested in understanding aiki. But if you're not, maybe you should call your art something else.

Katherine

Patrick Hutchinson
09-27-2011, 10:22 AM
"an illusion that really hurts"

There was a faith healer from Deal
who said, "Although pain isn't real,
when I sit on a pin
and it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel

graham christian
09-27-2011, 10:29 AM
Missing my point. Why am I not surprised...

If you study waterfalls, you will become acquainted with power, whether power is your reason for studying them or not. Likewise with aiki.

Of course, I guess I'm making a brash assumption that those who study aikido are in fact interested in understanding aiki. But if you're not, maybe you should call your art something else.

Katherine

Mmm. No comment.

graham christian
09-27-2011, 10:32 AM
an illusion that really hurts when the other bugger's strike connected to your body.

Yep, it definitely does. That illusion is quite real.

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-27-2011, 10:34 AM
Graham,

Still, I am glad to witness this fruitful continuation. I must say I feel the lesson was more applicable to you both than me. I am just too curious:o
...water under the bridge (from unpretentious waterfall that just playfully reflects the sunshine...).

Thank you. (nice brackets)

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-27-2011, 10:40 AM
"an illusion that really hurts"

There was a faith healer from Deal
who said, "Although pain isn't real,
when I sit on a pin
and it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel

Hey, your rhyming in my time,
But your rhyme well it aint worth a dime;
Cos illusion is real,
So when it hits you you feel,
The need for Aikido is prime.

Regards.G.

DH
09-27-2011, 10:47 AM
Missing my point. Why am I not surprised...

If you study waterfalls, you will become acquainted with power, whether power is your reason for studying them or not. Likewise with aiki.

Of course, I guess I'm making a brash assumption that those who study aikido are in fact interested in understanding aiki. But if you're not, maybe you should call your art something else.

Katherine
Sometimes I think your mind is like a laser.....

Aikido people rarely encounter Aiki. For many, they don't know what it is, how to manifest it, and what power has to do with it. The understanding they have of power is totally western and that is why you see many of them noodle, evade, and essentially run away from contact. There are quite a few videos here of people almost afraid to use their arms because all they do is resist and use muscle when they do. Essentially they have no idea what the hell Ueshiba was even talking about.

Real power, that will last, is soft and exists in duality in a way alien to them. In fact it is the lack of understanding of sustaining and manifesting duality, that is at the heart of their constant failure. When they cannot access you, cannot put force into you, their every move and weight shift reveals their feet, their center and they are exposed, then they finally listen. These things require power of a type and in way that is of a higher level than they have experienced. And at it's core that type of power has nothing to do with Power Proud™ that power, is different than aiki.

Of course, I guess I'm making a brash assumption that those who study aikido are in fact interested in understanding aiki. But if you're not, maybe you should call your art something else.
The crew in Seattle was imitating what some people act like... laughing and putting their fingers in their ears and going La La La.......
All I know is that in person with the Aikido-ka I keep meeting. All debate ends...in person. Pretty much the internet is the only safe haven for people to theorize and feel what they do works equally to someone who actually trains aiki. As time goes by they are going to have to avoid more and more of the Aikido-ka who are actually training the way that we now know O sensei was talking about.
All the best
Dan

graham christian
09-27-2011, 11:53 AM
Oh the beauty of semantics. Allow me to clarify. That codition or state of affairs or position people call power I do not.

That means I do not give that same thing that label.

Now if someone wants to assume I am saying that condition is not there then they are sadly mistaken.

The differentiation of power being different to power proud I like. That should get some differentiating.

I merely ask people to throw away that word and then they may be surprised at what they learn.

If I throw someone across the dojo with one finger and they say that was power I say no it wasn't.

Now here is another perspective to chew on for anyone interested.

If a person can do something , lets say lift a bus with one finger to be be nice and ridiculous, then others may say that shows great power. However if he can do it every time at ease the to him it is just normal, it's nothing.

Thus I don't use the word power, plus it is a word ego just loves.

Regards,G.

phitruong
09-28-2011, 07:32 AM
Oh the beauty of semantics. Allow me to clarify. That codition or state of affairs or position people call power I do not.

That means I do not give that same thing that label.

.

maybe you should publish a dictionary of your terminology and their meanings so that you don't have to explain/justify every time folks questioning your usage of various terms.

Tim Ruijs
09-28-2011, 08:44 AM
Semantics demand proper context. When context is not clear to readers that causes discussion where one should not really be required. Allthough sometimes playing around with words will provide insight (hence your remark on not using the word power).

graham christian
09-28-2011, 09:17 AM
Semantics demand proper context. When context is not clear to readers that causes discussion where one should not really be required. Allthough sometimes playing around with words will provide insight (hence your remark on not using the word power).

Unfortunately communicating with the written word live on a forum will always be 'not understood' or misconstrued by some so the fact that context is king doesn't mean it won't lead to others saying they don't understand or having opposing views.

Behind what anyone says on here is a viewpoint. A point from which they are viewing. So rather than assuming people are stupid and need to learn how to transmit better with words, for I'm sure the writers know that, it is more a matter of responsibility of the reader to duplicate the viewpoint and then agree or disagree or discuss.

Thus responsibility lies once again on both sides of the coin.

Any good teacher knows this. I merely present an understanding.

Some get it right away, some don't. Thus I put the understanding into another context. It's normal procedure rather than right or wrong or indeed playing with words.

Then we come to the important bits of what is being said. You can acknowledge them or dismiss them and thus be off track on the topic.

In this thread the important points were the use of the word power and that needs context in itself. Then the point of ego loves the concept of power. Then the point that you can throw away the word altogether and learn something. The central point being that spiritually, transcending the normal view, power takes on altogether a different meaning and for me the word itself dissappears.

Regards.G.

kewms
09-28-2011, 09:29 AM
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

Katherine

graham christian
09-28-2011, 09:47 AM
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

Katherine

Precisely my point, well done. I understand the words and then I look at the viewpoint from where they are coming. For there lies the key to my understanding.

I see no attempt to relate to the topic or thread in a constructive manner. No more, no less.

G.

graham christian
09-28-2011, 10:44 AM
Here is one Shihans example of not using power. He doesn't emphasize using power but rather removing his own power. Once again a person may wonder what he means.

http://youtu.be/GzWWz7h4Vu4

Regards.G.

DH
09-28-2011, 11:06 AM
Here is one Shihans example of not using power. He doesn't emphasize using power but rather removing his own power. Once again a person may wonder what he means.

http://youtu.be/GzWWz7h4Vu4

Regards.G.
That's Stanley Pranin's voice by the way.
What he is doing is very simple and easy to explain, Graham. Anyone who can do that can explain it in simple terms that require no spiritual understanding whatsoever. Since you claim to understand them...........

Of course the million dollar question is why are these teachers not teaching it? That stuff is baby steps and should have been explained sixty years ago so that the students moved on and demanded more.
And you still don't understand what power means. You're continually thinking of it in sports or Western thinking and not in Japanese or Chinese sense of power.
Dan

Mary Eastland
09-28-2011, 12:38 PM
I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.

kewms
09-28-2011, 01:01 PM
I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.

But what *is* "correct feeling," exactly?

There are also some actions that are inherently incompatible with "correct feeling." If your movement patterns are correct, there are some things that you simply won't try.

Katherine

graham christian
09-28-2011, 01:27 PM
That's Stanley Pranin's voice by the way.
What he is doing is very simple and easy to explain, Graham. Anyone who can do that can explain it in simple terms that require no spiritual understanding whatsoever. Since you claim to understand them...........

Of course the million dollar question is why are these teachers not teaching it? That stuff is baby steps and should have been explained sixty years ago so that the students moved on and demanded more.
And you still don't understand what power means. You're continually thinking of it in sports or Western thinking and not in Japanese or Chinese sense of power.
Dan

Dan. He explained it his way. No doubt you can explain it your way. I can explain it my way.

As far as with no spiritual understanding whatsoever then I that point I couldn't disagree more. On the video he relates it to spiritual so at least that's two of us.

I fail to see how you believe I think of power in western or sports terms but there you go. This thread is all about letting go of such western and sports views of power.

As far as japanese sense of such I have much understanding. Now more to the point on this thread I am giving my view not based on what anyone else says be they western, eastern or alien.

The million dollar question.... Ah now you have my interest. I have assumed that in the Hombu Dojo for example it would be standard. It appears maybe I was wrong but that's maybe.

More importantly though is Over the years that same question began to form for me. Do you think because I don't shout about it then I don't question why many don't understand more?

How many Aikidoka have I met over thirty years? How many fellow martial artists have I met and trained with or helped? How many in life situations have I entered with handled with Aikido in that time? But how many could do what I do? Not many. Thus for me a million dollar question it was but is no more. For I have nothing to prove and plenty to offer.

I still would like to see more teachers like in the video though as would you, I think.

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-28-2011, 01:33 PM
I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.

I quite agree. Along with saying shihonage done one way is wrong. But I do give him the right to for he is merely showing his way and his view about which for me there is much to admire.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
09-28-2011, 03:28 PM
But what *is* "correct feeling," exactly?

There are also some actions that are inherently incompatible with "correct feeling." If your movement patterns are correct, there are some things that you simply won't try.

Katherine

When you have you know it.

Chris Li
09-28-2011, 03:44 PM
I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.

But not every technique would have "correct feeling", right? So even then you would say that there is a right way and a wrong way to express a technique, right?

Best,

Chris

kewms
09-28-2011, 03:59 PM
When you have you know it.

No doubt. But that's not very helpful for the student.

Katherine

Mary Eastland
09-28-2011, 05:06 PM
No doubt. But that's not very helpful for the student.

Katherine

Chuckle...I do hope it is helpful to my students.

Mary Eastland
09-28-2011, 05:07 PM
But not every technique would have "correct feeling", right? So even then you would say that there is a right way and a wrong way to express a technique, right?

Best,

Chris

My goal is to have every technique have correct feeling with every uke in every situation...

Chris Li
09-28-2011, 05:11 PM
My goal is to have every technique have correct feeling with every uke in every situation...

So...you want every technique to be "correct", right? So why is it wrong to say that a technique is "incorrect"? "Correct" feeling implies "incorrect" feeling, doesn't it?

Best,

Chris

Mary Eastland
09-28-2011, 05:27 PM
In a general way...yet a teacher that says this technique is wrong and my way is right makes me uncomfortable. I think correct feeling can be achieved with both techniques.

graham christian
09-28-2011, 07:46 PM
In a general way...yet a teacher that says this technique is wrong and my way is right makes me uncomfortable. I think correct feeling can be achieved with both techniques.

Ahh. Just got back from training. Mary I get where your coming from and totally agree. In fact I love that concept come discipline.

Tonight was a night of drills. 4 hrs.of drills. They included aikitaiso exercises while someone is holding you or trying to stop you. The aim is to be able to do them anyway no matter what and just keep flowing.

Then drills on doing any technique as one motion. Drilling the concept of one. Any failure means you went into more than one. A fine drill. May I say that when you see what you are going to do as merely one motion, no matter how many parts it has to it, you feel correct feeling.

Then drills on zanshin. An excellent night if I say so myself.

A nice side joke here too. Just when you have been talking about power along comes a friend bringing a fiend of theirs asking if he could experience what we were doing. In walks a man mountain wanting to know what this non power was all about just out of interest. Ha, ha. Great fun.

Regards.G.

Tim Ruijs
09-29-2011, 02:24 AM
@Mary
Every technique just is. Sure you can evaluate on different aspects and find room for improvement. But nothing you do can ever change the technique you just did. When you think "Oh I know this technique" it is only the first sign that you are in trouble. This only kills your Aikido. Beginner's mind...you know nothing attitude....

@Graham
What do you think is 'spiritual power'? You have explained why you think somethings are not:

I have seen explanations based on many different things discussed but all boil down to superior something that in turn therefore can dominate by choice the less superior. Whether it be through better skills, better education, better .....well whatever.

Spiritual power is (e.g.) the ability to enjoy yourself, be determined, be aware, reflective and compassionate.
Working on this type of character traits requires change of self...

Another spiritual approach my teacher always tells:
Before executing a technique open your self to the cosmic KI, let it flow in, blend it with the KI of you partner. When the technique fails, you clearly have not opened yourself to KI enough.
and then he smiles sarcasticly...

gates
09-29-2011, 03:18 AM
We are like light bulbs connected on the cosmic fairy lights, interconnected and interdependent. Spiritual power is just being the brightest bulb you can be.

graham christian
09-29-2011, 06:17 AM
@Mary
Every technique just is. Sure you can evaluate on different aspects and find room for improvement. But nothing you do can ever change the technique you just did. When you think "Oh I know this technique" it is only the first sign that you are in trouble. This only kills your Aikido. Beginner's mind...you know nothing attitude....

@Graham
What do you think is 'spiritual power'? You have explained why you think somethings are not:

Spiritual power is (e.g.) the ability to enjoy yourself, be determined, be aware, reflective and compassionate.
Working on this type of character traits requires change of self...

Another spiritual approach my teacher always tells:
Before executing a technique open your self to the cosmic KI, let it flow in, blend it with the KI of you partner. When the technique fails, you clearly have not opened yourself to KI enough.
and then he smiles sarcasticly...

Hi Tim.
Let's start with this; I am saying throw the word away, don't use it. The fact that people find it so hard to do itself shows me all I need to see.

O.K. Having said that I'll expand on why. One definition would be to do with the position of Authority, that would be called a position of power. People often say 'if I was in charge I would........ Thus they believe it's a desired thing. Thus they equate it with responsibility. They even equate it with superiority. But they have never questioned it.

Political parties want to get into power etc etc. Do you think that's normal? Do you think that is even wise?

Well her's the thing. If you remove that word and look beyond it you will see there are things preferable or even vitally necessary and far more important to that position of power or Authority and that my friend is ability.

Ability is the word and concept to aim for rather than power. How many political parties or groups or individuals get into a position of power and authority and yet don't have the ability to make things better and thus only make them worse. Yet they cling on to power and it becomes more important to them than their own life and unfortunately usually the lives of others.

So that's a glimpse into that reason.

Now let's go scientific. All physics definitions to do with power are to do with capacity. Well here's the silly thing when it comes to personal desires for power and that is we all have the capacity already. Therefore it's a really stupid goal to have. Thinking the problem in martial arts is that you need more power is thus a fallacy, it's creating a problem that isn't there for having the capacity to do, to handle etc. is already there.

The problem once again is ability and the way to gain ability is study and practice so there is a path to ability.

Now I havn't even mentioned another thing called wisdom here but maybe that's for another day.

So now to your question of spiritual power. We all once again have spiritual potential, spiritual capacity and in fact your spiritual capacity is infinite.

To understand this or rather to transmit that understanding I would use the physical area or subject of energy as an entrance point for such understanding. Thus in Aikido I would get the student to focus on energy. That person attacking you or holding you is to be seen from the viewpoint of energy rather than a physical mass.

A tsuki for example is energy coming at you in a straight line. A shomen is coming at you in a straight line, it's cutting through straight through your centre line. On the other hand a yokomen or a right hook or a roundhouse kick etc is energy coming at you in a circular fashion, on a circular line.

Then there is the focus of energy towards and through you which can be represented by the triangle. So you see here I am relating energy motions and the looking at the from the view of geometry.

Why? Because it will lead a person to understand better what they are actually dealing with and meant to be harmonizing with. Secondly it is leading a person towards principles of energy and those principles are the vital factor necessary to understanding.

Now if you were to enter the field of structural engineering you will find they deal especially with the principles of energy. The preferred pathways of energy.

Therein lies the key to understanding. Energy follows certain paths of which there are not many actually so when you try to block someone or insist on energy going a certain way you would be defeating yourself or at least making it a thousand times harder by ignoring or attempting to ignore these principles of energy motion.

Now note the word principles. Truths. The basic laws that energy follows in motion.

Learn these well, become able to recognize them and know them,and see how the apply to all motions and techniques and then you will know a great deal about Aikido.

The funny thing is that spiritual energy or Ki follows the self same principles. So if you were to study that and practice that and get to a level of ableness, ability, where you are in tune with and operating from those principles comfortably the that would be spiritual power. But by then it would be just normal to you and nothing really to you and thus power would be a word used by others.

So there you are. I hope you're still awake. Ha, ha.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
09-29-2011, 07:18 AM
@ Tim: Who said anything about the technique that just happened...that technique is history.

Tim Ruijs
09-29-2011, 07:51 AM
Very awake Graham, very. Thanks for sharing your view. ;)

It reflects of what I think Aikido means: the ability to do the right thing at the right time (harmony eastern style).
So what we are going for is not to have power, nor to have ability, but be able to employ that ability.
Like you said, the potential (i.e. energy) is already inside, but we cannot employ/use it properly when we want to.

Polishing the mind, is not it great?

Tim Ruijs
09-29-2011, 07:57 AM
My goal is to have every technique have correct feeling with every uke in every situation...
I probably read something in this...

jonreading
09-29-2011, 09:10 PM
So much discussion on power I thought I'd give another perspective.

As I see it following the desire for power and more power is a fools errand as far as Aikido is concerned. As I see it I see people debating and believing they are achieving something yet to me no matter how much they try to justify this search they are unaware they are merely standing still or even going backwards.

Can anyone describe what power is spiritually?

I have seen explanations based on many different things discussed but all boil down to superior something that in turn therefore can dominate by choice the less superior. Whether it be through better skills, better education, better .....well whatever.

So we are still looking at the ability to dominate, to control, to be in a position where you have choice.

Is that power? I believe it is stupidity therefore if you really want to be ultimately stupid then that is the path to follow.

The secret to Aikido is it has nothing to do with power or strength internal or otherwise.

Regards.G.

I am not sure I understand the thread. The title alludes to a definition of spiritual power, yet Graham then asserts that power is bad. It would therefore reason that spiritual power would also be bad based upon the presumption power is bad. However, I do not think that was the intended assertion.

Taking this into consideration... Power has neither positive nor negative connotation, in spiritual or any form. Graham has chosen to socially define power and assign a negative connotation to the social definition.

For me, the term "power" refers to the quality with which to bring about an effect. For some reason, power is a bad word in aikido. For me, aikido is about the stewardship of power in our own bodies. Aikido is about learning to use the power within our bodies, share it with others and use it to accomplish good things in this world. The morality of the term is derived from the application of power, a decision which rests in the hands of the individual.

To that extent, spiritual power is simply the quality and ability to use your spirituality to bring about some effect... Or, strangle star destroyer captains at random intervals...

I do not know why we are so scared of power as to transform the very term into a pejorative.

kewms
09-29-2011, 10:41 PM
I do not know why we are so scared of power as to transform the very term into a pejorative.

People often fear what they don't understand...

One of the really transformational experiences for me in aikido (so far) was realizing that I actually *had* power -- something women in particular are conditioned not to believe -- and that having power brought the responsibility of learning when and how to use it.

Similarly, that's one downside of denying the existence/importance of power: it can easily be an excuse for irresponsible behavior.

Katherine

gates
09-30-2011, 01:18 AM
People often fear what they don't understand...

Although I think this is very valid I'd take a slightly different slant on it and add that:

As they don't understand it, they can't really fear it. They have a feeling of loss of control or an underlying feeling of uncertainty. From a negative mindset the uncertainty turns into fear, on the other hand from a positive mindset fear turns into courage. Small children are a good case in point. Go onto any children's ward and you will find an enormous number of truly brave and courageous souls. Somewhere along the way many of us lose our awe and wonderment of life.

I think that perhaps power is the wrong word to use from a spiritual perspective.

The crux of the issue for me is:
What is the motivating factor in the search for power?
What are you going to do with it once you get it?
(and what is it going to do to you)
It is easy to get wrapped up inside our own worlds and forget the bigger picture.

I think it is fairly self explanatory why spirituality is closely linked to many Martial Arts. At a basic level you cannot go around teaching dangerous techniques to any tom, dick and harry. More importantly I think it is the framework that they are taught under that defines how the information will be taken. There are alot of people that just should not be trusted with 'power'. For a person to rise to the top of a major corporation or become a senior politician, there has to be a strong base desire, a motivation, if this is based on an egocentric perspective then things surely deteriorate for the others around them.

Selfless altruistic characters are an unusually rare bread and don't generally have the kind of desire needed to rise into a position of 'power', obviously there are some wonderful exceptions.

Maybe a better tranlation for 'spiritual power' is 'strong positive spiritual energy'.

graham christian
09-30-2011, 07:28 AM
I am not sure I understand the thread. The title alludes to a definition of spiritual power, yet Graham then asserts that power is bad. It would therefore reason that spiritual power would also be bad based upon the presumption power is bad. However, I do not think that was the intended assertion.

Taking this into consideration... Power has neither positive nor negative connotation, in spiritual or any form. Graham has chosen to socially define power and assign a negative connotation to the social definition.

For me, the term "power" refers to the quality with which to bring about an effect. For some reason, power is a bad word in aikido. For me, aikido is about the stewardship of power in our own bodies. Aikido is about learning to use the power within our bodies, share it with others and use it to accomplish good things in this world. The morality of the term is derived from the application of power, a decision which rests in the hands of the individual.

To that extent, spiritual power is simply the quality and ability to use your spirituality to bring about some effect... Or, strangle star destroyer captains at random intervals...

I do not know why we are so scared of power as to transform the very term into a pejorative.

It's all in your first sentence Jon. So either you haven't read the thread properly or you're playing games.

Now having pointed that out I will say I like most if your explanation.

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-30-2011, 07:38 AM
People often fear what they don't understand...

One of the really transformational experiences for me in aikido (so far) was realizing that I actually *had* power -- something women in particular are conditioned not to believe -- and that having power brought the responsibility of learning when and how to use it.

Similarly, that's one downside of denying the existence/importance of power: it can easily be an excuse for irresponsible behavior.

Katherine

Ahh, at last I see the reason for your reaction to what I say. Time for differenciation methinks.

You will find I have stated before, in fact recently, that one of the main reasons for teaching Aikido is to empower people.

What I hoped to achieve with this thread was to get people to stop blindly using the word power without thoroughly inspecting what it means. I even point out how desirable and attractive it is to ego and and how those blindly yet determinedly setting about getting into positions of power may arrive there with no useful ability.

It is not power that should be aimed for it is the truth of what it means and what goes with it.

Regards.G.

phitruong
09-30-2011, 07:42 AM
I am not sure I understand the thread.

Jon, what is there not to understand? it's power and spiritual. incidentally, i don't understand them myself. maybe we just don't have the right kind of spiritual stuffs. i guess i'll see you in a week to exchange some power, then afterward we go to the local pub and exchange some spirits. i think we could convince Ledyard sensei to come along for the spiritual exchange. :D

jonreading
09-30-2011, 09:00 AM
Jon, what is there not to understand? it's power and spiritual. incidentally, i don't understand them myself. maybe we just don't have the right kind of spiritual stuffs. i guess i'll see you in a week to exchange some power, then afterward we go to the local pub and exchange some spirits. i think we could convince Ledyard sensei to come along for the spiritual exchange. :D

I am completely planning to increase my spirit-uality next week. Weapons, drinking... what is there not to look forward too?

It's all in your first sentence Jon. So either you haven't read the thread properly or you're playing games.

Now having pointed that out I will say I like most if your explanation.

Regards.G.

My first sentence was, "I am not sure I understand the thread." Seriously, I do not understand your point. I do not think you are claiming that spiritual power is bad, correct?

graham christian
09-30-2011, 09:20 AM
I am completely planning to increase my spirit-uality next week. Weapons, drinking... what is there not to look forward too?

My first sentence was, "I am not sure I understand the thread." Seriously, I do not understand your point. I do not think you are claiming that spiritual power is bad, correct?

That is correct. In my last two responses to Tim I expanded on the subject and actually if you read them again you will find they are not too dissimilar to you own personal view.

In fact as the thread progressed I feel the responses are now less reactionary and more to do with ability which was a point I was alluding to.

In the field of promotion power may be used to attract and work much better than using the word ability but even there I think you'll find it attracts more people for the wrong reasons.

Regards.G.

kewms
09-30-2011, 02:24 PM
It is not power that should be aimed for it is the truth of what it means and what goes with it.

See also my discussion of waterfalls and aiki, upthread.

Katherine

graham christian
09-30-2011, 05:59 PM
See also my discussion of waterfalls and aiki, upthread.

Katherine

Indeed Katherine. I stand corrected. Guilty as charged.

Regards.G.

TheAikidoka
10-04-2011, 05:56 PM
Just a point, didnt O`sensei first have spiritual training in shingon buddhism, in his home town of Tanabe, then trained in martial arts that his farther introduced to him?
Then came daito ryu which gave Aikido its technical base.
Finally culminating in more spiritual training und Deguchi Senei, and learning chinkon Kishin techniques, from him.

Thus O`sensei I believe words to the effect, spirit first, Body second.

Also I have read small transcriptions from reiki monagatari, which deguchi wrote, that says, In the begining was spirirt, ame no minakushi no Omi kami (centre). Then came power, tamatsume no O kami to deliver that spirit into the myriad of things, Third came the body which carries the spirit, Kami musubi no Okami,and the power.
This was deguchi's, personal view of how we should develop ourselves, and indeed this was his own interpretation of the beginnings of the kojiki.

Spirit first,Second Power, Third Body. Interestingly the three deities mentioned above are the first deities described at the very begining of the kojiki.

This information has been around a very long time.

Andy b

Chris Li
10-04-2011, 06:18 PM
Just a point, didnt O`sensei first have spiritual training in shingon buddhism, in his home town of Tanabe, then trained in martial arts that his farther introduced to him?

Sort of - in that he was educated in a Shingon temple. Of course, temple education was pretty much standard pre-Meiji, until Japan transitioned to the western educational system, so there's nothing necessarily that special about it.

Best,

Chris

kewms
10-04-2011, 07:12 PM
This was deguchi's, personal view of how we should develop ourselves, and indeed this was his own interpretation of the beginnings of the kojiki.

Spirit first,Second Power, Third Body. Interestingly the three deities mentioned above are the first deities described at the very begining of the kojiki.

This information has been around a very long time.


1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.


But whether one views such spiritual teachings as instructional or merely mythological does rather depend on one's religious beliefs, doesn't it? Do you mean to argue that one must adhere to Omoto-kyo in order to draw spiritual benefits from aikido?

Katherine

graham christian
10-04-2011, 09:09 PM
Just a point, didnt O`sensei first have spiritual training in shingon buddhism, in his home town of Tanabe, then trained in martial arts that his farther introduced to him?
Then came daito ryu which gave Aikido its technical base.
Finally culminating in more spiritual training und Deguchi Senei, and learning chinkon Kishin techniques, from him.

Thus O`sensei I believe words to the effect, spirit first, Body second.

Also I have read small transcriptions from reiki monagatari, which deguchi wrote, that says, In the begining was spirirt, ame no minakushi no Omi kami (centre). Then came power, tamatsume no O kami to deliver that spirit into the myriad of things, Third came the body which carries the spirit, Kami musubi no Okami,and the power.
This was deguchi's, personal view of how we should develop ourselves, and indeed this was his own interpretation of the beginnings of the kojiki.

Spirit first,Second Power, Third Body. Interestingly the three deities mentioned above are the first deities described at the very begining of the kojiki.

This information has been around a very long time.

Andy b

Nicely put.

Regards.G.

lbb
10-05-2011, 07:25 AM
Chuckle...I do hope it is helpful to my students.

Really? If you simply say to your students, "When you have it, you know it," how does that help them?

Also, and I'm not saying this is true in your case, but phrases like "When you have it, you know it" can be a complete copout -- in fact, I think it's unfortunately true that when dealing with less concrete aspects of the martial arts, such phrases are more likely to be a copout than an honest description.

phitruong
10-05-2011, 07:40 AM
Really? If you simply say to your students, "When you have it, you know it," how does that help them?



it helps the student to learn how to sound wise so they can do the same thing when their turn come. sort of along the line "take the pebble from my hand. when you have it, you know it." similar to ki, when you have it, you know it..... so are all the folks within a few meters radius, know it too. unless, you take preemptive measure by yelling at the person near you: "would you stop projecting your ki??!!!!" :D

Mary Eastland
10-05-2011, 07:45 AM
I am not sure how this got be something that I tell my students. It is a process to devolop correct feeling. For me, correct feeling was at first a fleeting feeling and it grew as I learned to trust the feeling and myself.I am not flippant nor disrespecful of anyone's process. If you noticed that was said with a self dreprecating chuckle.

lbb
10-05-2011, 08:36 AM
I am not sure how this got be something that I tell my students.

Fair enough -- your statement was a general observation and didn't have anything to do with teaching.

It is a process to devolop correct feeling. For me, correct feeling was at first a fleeting feeling and it grew as I learned to trust the feeling and myself.I am not flippant nor disrespecful of anyone's process. If you noticed that was said with a self dreprecating chuckle.

So, call it a digression...maybe I should start another thread, somewhere other than the Spiritual forum? Anyway, my thought was that when we do get into a teaching context, or anywhere that an explanation is asked for, I'd really like to see us do a whole lot better than "when you have it, you know it". Because even when it is true, it sounds like one of those cheezy Master Po aphorisms that Phi mentioned, and it certainly can be used as such. No matter how ethereal the topic, I think it's imperative to avoid these obfuscating cliches. They really don't help anything.

DH
10-05-2011, 09:31 AM
I am not sure how this got be something that I tell my students. It is a process to devolop correct feeling. For me, correct feeling was at first a fleeting feeling and it grew as I learned to trust the feeling and myself.I am not flippant nor disrespecful of anyone's process. If you noticed that was said with a self dreprecating chuckle.
It has to do with the fact that "correct feeling" is as meaningless a term as incorrect feeling. There is a feeling that is a real thing that can be taught with definitive words so that people don't stumble around searching for some feeling that may feel and mean something different to them than their neighbor.
There is a well established model for what moving from center is and how to connect the body so it connects and controls those who connect to you. What is more important is that the quality of it needs to be cultivated and trained to be more profound and to handle more stress.
What do you do to grow someone's abilities and power? Tell someone to feel even more correct feeling?
I prefer to use real world models and words that charge the mind and affect the body. Moreover, I would bet, hands down that it is is a superior method and that people who train it get results faster, and are more effective, both short term and in the long run.
Searching for correct feeling is about as good advice as Move your insides.
I don't know where or how we budo people all got afraid to say or challenge that one method is better than another. And everyone got all sensitive. Success used to be lauded as a measure the world used for generations. Now you have to apologize for it and lie and say that everyone is equal so as not to hurt someone's...feelings.
When Ueshiba..the teacher you follow... showed up on the scene, he was weighed, measured, challenged and judged and graded. No one got all sensitive and said We're all equal. Don't say what I am doing is not as good as you. Instead they said "Screw this ...what are you doing to do that to me?"

The Japanese have not helped us very much with this type of random, ill defined, steal this technique idea. Whether purposefully or by incompetence or both-("Don't teach white people, and this is our Japanese cultural heritage are real quotes) we need to do better for each other.
Since we now know that Ueshiba himself was using defined physical models that have a rock solid pedagogy that worked to produce power and aiki for generations, and whether by accident or on purpose curiously were never translated for us to read...we should at the very least be using his terms.
Heaven/earth/man
Six directions
Opposing spiral energy
Yin and yang on opposite sides of the body
The five bows

Searching for correct feeling will no longer do in the face of the man who defined his own art's methods for us.
We can do better for each other, than what has been done in his name.
Dan

DH
10-05-2011, 09:37 AM
Fair enough -- your statement was a general observation and didn't have anything to do with teaching.

So, call it a digression...maybe I should start another thread, somewhere other than the Spiritual forum? Anyway, my thought was that when we do get into a teaching context, or anywhere that an explanation is asked for, I'd really like to see us do a whole lot better than "when you have it, you know it". Because even when it is true, it sounds like one of those cheezy Master Po aphorisms that Phi mentioned, and it certainly can be used as such. No matter how ethereal the topic, I think it's imperative to avoid these obfuscating cliches. They really don't help anything.
+1

Mary Eastland
10-05-2011, 09:41 AM
@ Mary: I really never know what you are talking about. I see that you are very smart. I think our understanding of Aikido is very different.
Good luck in your training.

Mary Eastland
10-05-2011, 09:46 AM
@ Dan: We train from different places. Thank you for your corrections. You may be right about everything.

I believe there is no in competition in Aikido. It is a fundamental difference in where we are coming from. Your arguments to me are like comparing apples and oranges.

Enjoy your path. Please don't confuse my pathetic attempts to talk about correct feeling with people who are looking to argue about everything with my teaching methods. If you want to complain about them at least experience them first.

graham christian
10-05-2011, 09:51 AM
May I interject here. I have stated I like that principle of correct feeling.

I think it is very important not only in Aikido but in life also for it teaches you to differentiate and be honest with yourself.

To act off of incorrect feeling is not very wise in my opinion.

So what is correct feeling?

O.K. Let's get honest here. When you do a move or technique that was so good, so effortless, so right, almost perfectly executed complete with desired result then how do you feel?

That feeling is special. That feeling is what you desire every time. That feeling is correct feeling.

Therefore it is a good principle to follow for it tells you if everything was aligned properly or not.

Correct feeling is therefore a result of.

Correct feeling is the hidden teacher.

This in no way detracts from what others have said here for whether it takes yin or yang or whatever to achieve this it is still a valid and in fact essential principle in my estimation.

Regards.G.

DH
10-05-2011, 09:56 AM
@ Dan: We train from different places. Thank you for your corrections. You may be right about everything.

I believe there is no in competition in Aikido. It is a fundamental difference in where we are coming from. Your arguments to me are like comparing apples and oranges.

Enjoy your path. Please don't confuse my pathetic attempts to talk about correct feeling with people who are looking to argue about everything with my teaching methods. If you want to complain about them at least experience them first.
I've tried several times....when can I come?
I am not complaining, Mary. I think there is a better way for all of us to communicate and understand together what Aiki...do is.
I do disagree about the competition model. There is right and wrong in the world. 2+2 does not equal 7, so teaching that it does is simply wrong.

If O sensei was talking about specific things, then we should at least be doing those things in his art. One could really state that...
"If we don't know what he said and what it means, than no matter what we think we are doing, it cannot be correct feeling... by definition it can be nothing more than guess work!"
Dan

DH
10-05-2011, 10:10 AM
May I interject here. I have stated I like that principle of correct feeling.

I think it is very important not only in Aikido but in life also for it teaches you to differentiate and be honest with yourself.

To act off of incorrect feeling is not very wise in my opinion.

So what is correct feeling?

O.K. Let's get honest here. When you do a move or technique that was so good, so effortless, so right, almost perfectly executed complete with desired result then how do you feel?

That feeling is special. That feeling is what you desire every time. That feeling is correct feeling.

Therefore it is a good principle to follow for it tells you if everything was aligned properly or not.

Correct feeling is therefore a result of.

Correct feeling is the hidden teacher.
Regards.G.
The crux of the matter is for better tools to help each other and our students. Correct feeling is only a hidden teacher because we don't know what it was that we just did to produce that magic feeling...that sucks dude BTDT! Having a good night at the dojo or a bad night and not knowing exactly what failed or succeeded won't do anymore. That magic is teachable and replicable. I've not met the human being that didn't say ...Oh! Show me that again. Wow, that's awesome. I can do it too."
No one has ever said to me..." I would rather keep on guessing and searching for correct feeling."

This in no way detracts from what others have said here for whether it takes yin or yang or whatever to achieve this it is still a valid and in fact essential principle in my estimation.
And for the record, Graham correct feeling requires both yin and yang (in/ yo) present at all times. It really isn't a ..."whatever" at all.
"Sensei why is it we cannot do what you do?
Because you do not understand in / yo!"
By definition, everything else is guesswork and cannot be his Aiki.
I'll be in London on the weekend of 23rd. Frid., Sat., and Sun. Come on by and play.
Dan

Mary Eastland
10-05-2011, 10:30 AM
You say that in public, Dan, yet when invited you let it drop maybe because we are not asking you as an authority but to share ideas? You can disagree all you want about what is right and what is wrong. Aikido with competition makes it no different than any other art to me.

The spiritual part of Aikido is not to compete and yet grow stronger yourself. One can tell how they are growing without having power over someone or by throwing hard. Correct feeling is like Graham described.

Cady Goldfield
10-05-2011, 10:38 AM
Graham,

Searching for "correct feeling" is like being given a unique and delicious cake, but not the recipe. You're left to try to parse out the nuances of flavor and texture on your own, without a hint (except, maybe "Keep trying to mix stuff together. Do it for 40 years... eventually you'll get the right formula!). If you're worldly and have tasted many different ingredients in your travels, you might be able to figure out some of the contents. But the precise ingredients and process will elude you.

Some people may savor the experience of spending a lifetime trying to figure it out for themselves -- or in a group of people stumbling through the dark together for a lifetime, in search of those "correct feelings" -- but most of us wish for a teacher who knows the way and is willing to show us. I'd take a proffered flashlight over a slog through the dark anyday!

P.S. A little unsolicited, but earnest, advice: Go to London and play! You'll get a recipe for a really killer cake.

DH
10-05-2011, 10:42 AM
You say that in public, Dan, yet when invited you let it drop maybe because we are not asking you as an authority but to share ideas?
I replied kiddo. I really did. And I am very consistent in private and in public. We all know of those folks that are awful and down right ugly in private, and I am not one of them. And sharing for me is what it is all about. I want to be very clear that I do not consider myself an authority. I know that you know people who train with me and I am sure they have conveyed what I am like on a mat. I refuse all vestige of authority, or sensei, or anything else that would place me above anyone. I would be surprised if you can find someone who would offer that view of me.

You can disagree all you want about what is right and what is wrong. Aikido with competition makes it no different than any other art to me. The spiritual part of Aikido is not to compete and yet grow stronger yourself. One can tell how they are growing without having power over someone or by throwing hard. Correct feeling is like Graham described.

I agree with that. As for throwing, how about not throwing at all, but someone cannot apply power or will or affect you in any way because with aiki, they are neutralized on contact? Is that a competition?
Why do you throw people? Isn't that you redirecting their will?
Than you just competed with them for their will.

Dan

graham christian
10-05-2011, 10:43 AM
The crux of the matter is for better tools to help each other and our students. Correct feeling is only a hidden teacher because we don't know what it was that we just did to produce that magic feeling...that sucks dude BTDT! Having a good night at the dojo or a bad night and not knowing exactly what failed or succeeded won't do anymore. That magic is teachable and replicable. I've not met the human being that didn't say ...Oh! Show me that again. Wow, that's awesome. I can do it too."
No one has ever said to me..." I would rather keep on guessing and searching for correct feeling."

And for the record, Graham correct feeling requires both yin and yang (in/ yo) present at all times. It really isn't a ..."whatever" at all.
"Sensei why is it we cannot do what you do?
Because you do not understand in yo!"
By definition, everything else is guesswork and cannot be his Aiki.
Dan

Dan. It shows you do agree in principle then.

I have never met anyone who didn't have the response you mention either.

The crux of the matter is as you say so I have no disagreement there. A method that can be understood and replicated by the student.

As for yin and yang it's quite obvious that's all part of Aikido and is equated as such by most who do or don't do Aikido in my experience.

When I first reached the point of knowing without a shadow of doubt how to tie my shoelaces then I experienced correct feeling. I could confidently apply it to any pair of shoes in the world.

Before I could do this then my feelings towards tying my shoelaces was somewhat different.

Yin and yang, a broad subject, no doubt has many stages of learning and applying and thus many stages of correct feeling. The final one I would say would be enlightenment.

Regards.G.

lbb
10-05-2011, 10:47 AM
Graham, there are a lot of times when I do something and plenty of effort is involved, yet I don't see it as "incorrect" because of that.

Mary, I'm sorry that you don't see the sense of what I'm saying. It may be that we have mutually incomprehensible world views, but if so, it IS a matter of world view, not understanding of aikido.

I had an interesting conversation with my sensei last night (those couple of minutes of hakama-folding and dojo-tidying are often the occasion for some really cool conversations, I've found). I said to him that the common view of mathematicians and scientists was contrary to what I'd experienced. People who don't have a math or science background often seem to think that mathematicians and scientists are people who have to have everything defined, ordered, labeled and numbered. In fact, the opposite is true. The scientific method has certain requirements in order to make valid conclusions, it's true...but in my experience, mathematicians and scientists spend more time venturing into the unknown than just about anyone else, and they do so (again in my experience) with a humble spirit, seeking to increase understanding but also acknowledging that they don't know and may never know. They live with a lot more uncertainty than many people who dwell in stereotypically fuzzy realms, and they accept that uncertainty and are humble in the face of it -- while many people who come from fields like philosophy or religion seem much more rigid in their need for certainty and definition.

(not that it matters but my sensei is director of a science museum...end digression)

TheAikidoka
10-05-2011, 10:59 AM
But whether one views such spiritual teachings as instructional or merely mythological does rather depend on one's religious beliefs, doesn't it? Do you mean to argue that one must adhere to Omoto-kyo in order to draw spiritual benefits from aikido?

Katherine

HI Katherine. NO I do not mean one has to adhere to Omoto beliefs, to draw spiritual benifit from Aikido. I am simply saying, O`sensei believed (because that is the way he himself had been guided from childhood), that training the spirit and putting that first, then ki/internal/mental power e.t.c, and finally to a lesser degree physicl power, is the proper way to progress,spiritually. He believed in his spiritual training, do you believe in yours? Thats is why I believe O`sensei would say, "go find out for yourself", because nobody can give you faith in what you do, but truly you!

Is this not what we teach and train, drop the power, embrace your opponent like a welcome guest and send him on his way. Be free.

This is why Aikidio Illumiates religions, because most religions follow this pattern. Thus it IS possible for the religions of the world to unite and stop fighting if only they truly understand this principle. Would this not be harmony?

To Graham,
Thank you, I have read and enjoyed this latest post and disagree with some of the really, negative posts put against you. Direct pointing to the mind, whilst looking at the refection of the moon, on the rippling surface. Peace Brother.

In Budo,

Andy B

TheAikidoka
10-05-2011, 11:05 AM
But whether one views such spiritual teachings as instructional or merely mythological does rather depend on one's religious beliefs, doesn't it? Do you mean to argue that one must adhere to Omoto-kyo in order to draw spiritual benefits from aikido?

Katherine

HI Katherine. NO I do not mean one has to adhere to Omoto beliefs, to draw spiritual benifit from Aikido. I am simply saying, O`sensei believed (because that is the way he himself had been guided from childhood), that training the spirit and putting that first, then ki/internal/mental power e.t.c, and finally to a lesser degree physicl power, is the proper way to progress,spiritually. He believed in his spiritual training, do you believe in yours? Thats is why I believe O`sensei would say, "go find out for yourself", because nobody can give you faith in what you do, but truly you!

Is this not what we teach and train, drop the power, embrace your opponent like a welcome guest and send him on his way. Be free.

This is why Aikidio Illumiates religions, because most religions follow this pattern. Thus it IS possible for the religions of the world to unite and stop fighting if only they truly understand this principle. Would this not be harmony?

To Graham,
Thank you, I have read and enjoyed this latest post and disagree with some of the really, negative posts put against you. Direct pointing to the mind, whilst looking at the refection of the moon, on the rippling surface. Peace Brother.

In Budo,

Andy B

graham christian
10-05-2011, 11:14 AM
Mary, I am not saying effort isn't valid. Learning anything takes effort and therefore without effort nothing can be gained.

When I get philosophical about study and practice to any students be they Aikido or maths or art, it doesn't matter, I tell them to go and look up the root meaning of the word study.

In one dictionary it said effort, in another applying oneself to learning from the original 'eagerness;

So I say study is the effort towards learning. It's all a cycle with a desired end result.

Now that feeling which comes with concentrated effort, continued concentrated effort, as that part of the cycle could also be called correct feeling.

It reminds me of a time I saw a student not applying himself properly, not giving full attention, in a class by Kanetsuka Sensei.

It resulted in him being hit square in the chest by a flying wooden tanto accompanied by the word 'Zanshin!'

So you remind me that there are a few correct feelings to be adhered to on the way to the one that works every time. Thank you.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
10-05-2011, 05:13 PM
I replied kiddo. I really did. And I am very consistent in private and in public. We all know of those folks that are awful and down right ugly in private, and I am not one of them. And sharing for me is what it is all about. I want to be very clear that I do not consider myself an authority. I know that you know people who train with me and I am sure they have conveyed what I am like on a mat. I refuse all vestige of authority, or sensei, or anything else that would place me above anyone. I would be surprised if you can find someone who would offer that view of me.

I agree with that. As for throwing, how about not throwing at all, but someone cannot apply power or will or affect you in any way because with aiki, they are neutralized on contact? Is that a competition?
Why do you throw people? Isn't that you redirecting their will?
Than you just competed with them for their will.

Dan

I don't feel like I am imposing my will on my uke. I blend with their energy and most often they end up on the mat. We agree to practice that way. Sometimes we practice with full resistance but not in an atmosphere of someone winning.

My impression of authority comes from how you post. You say this is right and this is wrong. And we both know that if you are giving a class you are already leading people's minds. The person who is considered the teacher starts with with a sense of knowing. It is implied, otherwise why would people be going to see you.:)

Chris Li
10-05-2011, 05:28 PM
My impression of authority comes from how you post. You say this is right and this is wrong.

And the problem with that is...?

Inevitably, some things are going to be right and others are going to be wrong. Just as there has to be an "incorrect" feeling for a "correct" feeling to exist.

In my experience, Dan is much more often right than wrong. And even his spelling's improved over the years :) .

Best,

Chris

graham christian
10-05-2011, 06:33 PM
Graham,

Searching for "correct feeling" is like being given a unique and delicious cake, but not the recipe. You're left to try to parse out the nuances of flavor and texture on your own, without a hint (except, maybe "Keep trying to mix stuff together. Do it for 40 years... eventually you'll get the right formula!). If you're worldly and have tasted many different ingredients in your travels, you might be able to figure out some of the contents. But the precise ingredients and process will elude you.

Some people may savor the experience of spending a lifetime trying to figure it out for themselves -- or in a group of people stumbling through the dark together for a lifetime, in search of those "correct feelings" -- but most of us wish for a teacher who knows the way and is willing to show us. I'd take a proffered flashlight over a slog through the dark anyday!

P.S. A little unsolicited, but earnest, advice: Go to London and play! You'll get a recipe for a really killer cake.

Cady. Nice analogy. But maybe limited. Correct feeling is for you to find and acknowledge and live up to in not only different stages of learning but also different aspects of Aikido. It's a valid rule.

If you practice sen no sen for example you will finally reach the correct feeling that goes with that. As I said it's not some high dream state. You can apply it to life and living. You know inside that acting from jealousy or greed or vindictiveness are all incorrect feelings and only lead to trouble. Thus it is a useful principle.

As for your advice? Well I acknowledge it's sincerity. Do I need it?

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
10-05-2011, 06:48 PM
And the problem with that is...?

Inevitably, some things are going to be right and others are going to be wrong. Just as there has to be an "incorrect" feeling for a "correct" feeling to exist.

In my experience, Dan is much more often right than wrong. And even his spelling's improved over the years :) .

Best,

Chris
I agree...I was just noting that Dan said he was not an authority.

Janet Rosen
10-05-2011, 06:51 PM
You know inside that acting from jealousy or greed or vindictiveness are all incorrect feelings and only lead to trouble. Thus it is a useful principle..

I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.

graham christian
10-05-2011, 07:04 PM
I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.

I agree that is the case for those you mention. Thus they are not being honest with themselves. Maybe they are yet to find true self honesty.

Regards.G.

gregstec
10-05-2011, 07:31 PM
And the problem with that is...?

Inevitably, some things are going to be right and others are going to be wrong. Just as there has to be an "incorrect" feeling for a "correct" feeling to exist.

In my experience, Dan is much more often right than wrong. And even his spelling's improved over the years :) .

Best,

Chris

Can we debate that? :D

Greg

gregstec
10-05-2011, 07:38 PM
I agree...I was just noting that Dan said he was not an authority.

Yes, he is not the definitive authority on IS - but he has a lot more going on with IS than most others in the Aikido community and he is willing to share - so, why not check it out - the only thing you got to lose is some time, but there is also a good potential to learn something - you can never go wrong with that type of approach

Greg

graham christian
10-05-2011, 07:49 PM
Very presumtious.....

Mary Eastland
10-05-2011, 08:12 PM
Yes, he is not the definitive authority on IS - but he has a lot more going on with IS than most others in the Aikido community and he is willing to share - so, why not check it out - the only thing you got to lose is some time, but there is also a good potential to learn something - you can never go wrong with that type of approach

Greg
Because I am not lacking anything. I am content in my training.

MM
10-05-2011, 09:00 PM
This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". :) Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?

Thanks,
Mark

Gary David
10-05-2011, 09:04 PM
Because I am not lacking anything. I am content in my training.

To be content with your training is one thing, to be satisfied with the content of your training is to stop learning. To continue to learn in a private setting is very possible and an approach that works for some period of time, but will for most....... like the over drawn well run dry. We all need a jump start at some time.....maybe even watching someone work will give you direction. Crossing hands or grabbing wrists helps even more.

The problem remains that most of us when we step out step out with someone we feel comfortable with, who thinks like we do or moves in directions we like to go. When we take risks we take little risks and make sure we are hidden in crowd at large seminars. In this setting we can go back to our general training when it isn't comfortable and no one calls us out.

You don't know me, it is not likely we will ever train together me being on the left coast and at my age I am sure we will never meet. Having said that ........Contentment is ok and no one, especially Dan, would deny you that. Dan is reasonably close to you and it you can get him to come up do it. He may seem a little rough around the edges, but he is a good guy and has a lot to offer. If you have your mechanics down, have your structure together and can move your body reasonably well, what Dan offers will add substance and an effortlessness to what you do, what you can do even when the other person is not helping. Give him a try.....in a setting with few folks to get in the way.

If you ever come out to Southern California give me advanced notice and if I can I'll try to introduce you to some other interesting characters out here that have things to offer in the aiki area......
Gary

Gary David
10-05-2011, 09:15 PM
This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". :) Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?

Thanks,
Mark

Well Brother
Spirit to intention to breath to physical movement to physical strength. As you know most of us start at one end, either spiritual or the strength, and never reach the other and never see the connection. We never put them all together. So to talk just about spiritual power leaves out the others.
Gary

phitruong
10-05-2011, 09:43 PM
This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". :) Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?


i am right with you there. no point in convince folks who do not want to be convinced, so let it be. do is a path for seeker. those have found, no longer seek. it's us lowlife who keep looking for things.... things to make us go.... :)

anyone know what this spiritual thing? would one know it if one has it? or would one know it if one has not it? although in asia, when you mention spiritual it tends to be along the line of ghost and dead people. i had not seen ghost (and yes i walked through a couple cemeteries in the dead of the night many times ... don't ask) of any kind. i had seen lots of dead people, so would that still considered as spiritual, even though, there were no ghost? of course i came from a culture that is in to the ancestor worshiping. we believed that the spirits of our ancestors hang around us and occasionally give us a kick in the rear-end for doing stupid thing like posting about ki and aiki on aikiweb. * oooowwwww ok grand dad! i'll keep my posting down,.... really... i will... but they made me! sorry, got to go! * :D

gregstec
10-06-2011, 07:43 AM
This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". :) Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?

Thanks,
Mark

Well, the power of the spirit moved me to post that - so, I am still on topic :p

Besides, don't you have a book to write or something :)

Greg

graham christian
10-06-2011, 09:20 AM
Gary, I think you have it the wrong way around.

It is not contentment or satisfaction with the content of your training that stops you learning it's quite the opposite.

Once again it amazes me how some feel they know what's best for someone else. As I said earlier..... presumption.

Now someone not content or satisfied with the content of their training, well there's the person who has stopped learning.

Dan teaches these people, giving them what was missing for them, that's why it's good.

By presuming you imply the person is stupid, cannot think for their self, needs your advice and thus your being so 'helpful'

Such advice is helpful only for those who ask for it otherwise it's completely misplaced.

But there again, if your spirit moved you to write such then maybe you too are on topic..ha,ha.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
10-06-2011, 09:55 AM
I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.

"Correct feeling" as I am using it isn't talking about a feeling like jealousy or anger. Think of "correct feeling" as a term with no judgment that indicates to yourself if you are centered and connected with you partner.

Mary Eastland
10-06-2011, 10:00 AM
@ Gary: I think you mean that in the best way.

For me is a spiritual journey. I have to choose my guides carefully. Help is only helpful if it asked for. I don't know what you need and you really have no idea what I need.

The thread is about spiritual power. In our training we have to be so careful not give our power away in a way that diminishes us.

gregstec
10-06-2011, 10:11 AM
Very presumtious.....

Nothing 'presumtious' nor presumptuous was stated - just made comment on Dan's position of authority with a follow on statement that meeting could not hurt - simple as that.

Greg

Janet Rosen
10-06-2011, 10:42 AM
"Correct feeling" as I am using it isn't talking about a feeling like jealousy or anger. Think of "correct feeling" as a term with no judgment that indicates to yourself if you are centered and connected with you partner.

Mary, I was responding directly to another poster, refuting his position on the topic of correct and incorrect feeling.

In terms of your use of the term, may I suggest that part of why it is becoming the object of some arguing is semantics? What I mean is, I suspect you are using "correct feeling" as a shorthand that in fact involves more than the words convey.
That there is an actual feedback loop that tells you "you are centered and connected with you partner" and that this manifests very concretely in the fact that you and your partner then form a unit and your movement affects your partner, etc....

When you shorthand it to "correct feeling" it conveys something that is inherently individual, ideosyncratic and unteachable, when in fact being centered and connected to another person of course is teachable.

My two cents

graham christian
10-06-2011, 11:32 AM
Spiritual Power. To recognise those spiritual principles extant in the universe and Aikido, to learn how to use them thus gain ability. To be at one with them in operation could be considered spiritual power.

It would also be harmony.

Regards.G.

Gary David
10-06-2011, 11:44 AM
Gary, I think you have it the wrong way around.

It is not contentment or satisfaction with the content of your training that stops you learning it's quite the opposite.

Once again it amazes me how some feel they know what's best for someone else. As I said earlier..... presumption.

Now someone not content or satisfied with the content of their training, well there's the person who has stopped learning.

Dan teaches these people, giving them what was missing for them, that's why it's good.

By presuming you imply the person is stupid, cannot think for their self, needs your advice and thus your being so 'helpful'

Such advice is helpful only for those who ask for it otherwise it's completely misplaced.

But there again, if your spirit moved you to write such then maybe you too are on topic..ha,ha.

Regards.G.

Graham
It is clear that you and I don't travel the same road......and even if we were we are not even close to being in the same point along the way. It is your "call" that I am presuming to give others advice and that I have called anyone "stupid".....and I don't care to be helpful in the context that you are putting it in. You are right that suggestion from me were not requested...so don't take them. I would give you the same suggestion, visit Dan and see what is what.

You presume to know me through a few short posts here, maybe from a short PM exchange some time back or by placing your overlay/template on to me. You don't know me, don't presume to. I will say that I have had the opportunity to view a lot of video, then grab wrists with the same folks.....so I do have some level of understanding of what is going on in any video i have the chance to view. I also consider that I have some understanding of what is hard, what is soft and what is effective soft, but don't take my word for it as this may only be a presumption on my part.

I think I am done with posting here, so presuming, suggestions and advice won't be an issue for me going forward.... Have a great day.....

graham christian
10-06-2011, 12:07 PM
Graham
It is clear that you and I don't travel the same road......and even if we were we are not even close to being in the same point along the way. It is your "call" that I am presuming to give others advice and that I have called anyone "stupid".....and I don't care to be helpful in the context that you are putting it in. You are right that suggestion from me were not requested...so don't take them. I would give you the same suggestion, visit Dan and see what is what.

You presume to know me through a few short posts here, maybe from a short PM exchange some time back or by placing your overlay/template on to me. You don't know me, don't presume to. I will say that I have had the opportunity to view a lot of video, then grab wrists with the same folks.....so I do have some level of understanding of what is going on in any video i have the chance to view. I also consider that I have some understanding of what is hard, what is soft and what is effective soft, but don't take my word for it as this may only be a presumption on my part.

I think I am done with posting here, so presuming, suggestions and advice won't be an issue for me going forward.... Have a great day.....

Gary. I presume nothing about you. Why do you think I do? By what you say now and in the past I can see you have knowledge and experience and a level of understanding of those things you talk about.

How many times in my life have I presumed or assumed something and offered help only to get egg on my face? Many.

I merely point out a fact and the consequences of such that we don't usually look at.

Did you know rather than presume or assume you could merely ask?

If I presume another needs to do something I am assuming I know best. Simple really.

Regards.G.

DH
10-06-2011, 01:12 PM
Well Brother
Spirit to intention to breath to physical movement to physical strength. As you know most of us start at one end, either spiritual or the strength, and never reach the other and never see the connection. We never put them all together. So to talk just about spiritual power leaves out the others.
Gary
There is no doubt about the positive effect aikido has on people. I've said before that I have encountered so many people in the art who approach it for different reasons; some for martial effectiveness, others who while quite competent in other venues enjoy the de-escalation, others for the fun of the connecting and air time, and others who feel a sense of spirituality to it. The umbrella is big enough for everyone.
If it is not valid to say it HAS to be martially viable.
Then it is equally invalid to say it has to be spiritual.
Is there a way to be both at once?

Interestingly the historical hinge pin was how the Asians tied their spiritual beliefs to physical processes, not how postmodern Caucasians are seeking to do so. Unfortunately we see few people interested in pursuing what the Asians saw as important in a joined process. What we have left is many people with little to no real power, nor real ability to connect and control without hyper cooperation or they resort to cranking and hard throwing, who are also utilizing a re-write of a spirituality over Ueshiba's that is almost completely divorced from its origins.
One wonders why they use the word Aikido at all.

I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.
Good points, Janet and in a similar vein;
I would posit based on my experience in the Aikido world and as a longtime martial artist that a lot of those who habitually act from feeling and unorganized guesswork of notions of aiki connection do not in fact recognize their feelings are "incorrect" feelings that simply will not work on someone who actually knows what aiki is.
They perceive them as correct and legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them, yet they cannot define them and do not in fact have a clue as to what they really are. Hence, my questioning "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being useful teaching constructs for anything meaningful in Budo. At the end of the day if people cannot define it themselves, then what does that mean? Hoew does it really help? Is it guesswork and hope? It is obvious that assigning a spiritual component to it would be a logical step.
1. They don't know how they did it.
2. They can't explain it.
3. it's a mystery to them as they search for that feeling to happen again, so it is a wonder
4. So some erroneously assign an unknown to it-like spirituality.
As they say "No beans to me." But it is damn curious as a training tool.

Change of subject as it relates to teaching the art of Aikido™, or Aiki...do (the way of aiki)
What does it say, when a group of people have not read and cannot explain what their founder discussed and defined as aiki and movement and yet continue to state that what they are doing is his way of aiki? By their own admission they have no part in the discussions of what Aiki...do originally was.

Kisshomaru did quite a bit to formulate a blank canvas; a bland non distinctive aikido form that could be used as a standard people could play off of. It is the logical explanation for Shioda, Osawa, Shirata, Tomiki, and all the old guard distancing themselves from this new art (Aikido™). Shirata's return (at O sensei's pleading) and what happened with his work being banned from hombu (work which highlighted O sensei's solo work and movement), fit in line with Tohei himself being distanced from Hombu. In the end, the broad brushed plan was to retain a bland distinctiveness that fit with what Kisshomaru himself perceived as his role as administrator. I think that this, combined with the poorly trained, young toughs, sent out with five or six years training as 5th and 6th dans all but sealed the deal.

It really isn't anyone's fault that Aiki...do is all but gone. The advent of Aikido™, divorced from the true words and practices of O sensei was a well designed and broad based plan, executed intentionally.

Can the two camps meet?
Just recently a Shihan in Japan (a close friend of Doshu) announced to his students that he was suspending aikido practice at his dojo because he had discovered aiki. His training (I am not at liberty to say in what) is now focusing on internal/aiki work to change his body. He later went to Doshu with excitement. Doshu, while complimenting the teacher on his improving skills, told him in no uncertain terms that he himself could never do this stuff "They would kill me. I have to do what my father did."

So if we see a divorce from the very top of the art, where does that leave us to discuss it? The heart of the discussion must, by its very nature, change to what the way of aiki has become versus what it was. Those pursuing Ueshiba's aiki, the way of aiki are going to have to struggle to find talking points to relate with those deeply immersed in the later, since functionally they are not going to be able to interact with the modern Aikido-ka. I suggest they do it less and less on the web, and reserve it for face-to-face encounters.
Why?
Clearly most of those in Aikido™, including the teachers, do not know what Ueshiba was talking about. Debates, while interesting, really only offers a venue to be heard and a chance to include unproven curiosities like "correct feeling" and "energy changing in the room" as having equal validity to the very real road map of concepts of heaven/ earth/ man, spiral energy, six directions, In/Yo ho, etc, that the founder was discussing. Thus the majoirty of the unknowing can contest/ argue without having to deliver. Where they cannot do that- is in person. There they must demonstrate; a) this is what he said b) this is what it means c) this is how it is done.

So if we reserve the meat of the argument for face to face discussions, then everyone gets to prove, disprove their ideas and correct feelings about things. And it usually ends in a friendly manner. Make no mistake though. We all know how this is ending up. Ueshiba's teachings always win...its no contest.
Why?
Because O sensei knew what he was talking about.
Those pursuing what is akin to a physical sport, with individualized overlays of western belief systems is not Ueshiba's Aiki…do and has no real part in what Aikido really is....or in fact ever was.

"Sensei, why can we not do what you do?"
Because you do not understand in yo
I suspect he would not recognize what most people are doing or talking about as having anything at all to do with him or his art.
Dan

graham christian
10-06-2011, 03:08 PM
In that case what part of what you do would you call spiritual?

Regards.G.

DH
10-06-2011, 03:46 PM
Didn't have time to write that the underpinnings of what aiki does to your mind/body infused and infomred his spiritual views, as was noted by his son and other biographers. It wasn't till recently we got to read that those underpinnings were in fact deeply rooted in his Daito ryu and his research into the Chinese classics. Those two -just like his physical and spiritual training blended and became one.

In that case what part of what you do would you call spiritual?

Regards.G.
That is a very good question, Graham. and I take it very seriously and deeply. It shows itself in a more profound way in what I do and who I am in person. A critical difference though, is my budo did not infuse and inform my spirituality, but rather the other way round. And it is why I admire Ueshiba and what he did with his arts, and why I changed the focus of my arts dramatically as well. It also did something to the execution of them personally that many find profound and only I know why.
Dan

kewms
10-06-2011, 05:49 PM
I agree that is the case for those you mention. Thus they are not being honest with themselves. Maybe they are yet to find true self honesty.

We're talking about aikido as a spiritual practice. If that means anything at all, it means helping people develop such traits as self honesty.

So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?

Semantic debates bore me. Help me improve my aikido, or help me teach aikido more effectively.

Katherine

graham christian
10-06-2011, 06:44 PM
We're talking about aikido as a spiritual practice. If that means anything at all, it means helping people develop such traits as self honesty.

So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?

Semantic debates bore me. Help me improve my aikido, or help me teach aikido more effectively.

Katherine

Not sure what you mean here.

Mary Eastland
10-07-2011, 02:09 PM
We're talking about Aikido as a spiritual practice. If that means anything at all, it means helping people develop such traits as self honesty.

So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?

Semantic debates bore me. Help me improve my Aikido, or help me teach Aikido more effectively.

Katherine

Perhaps that is the whole spiritual practice: finding what what works for us and what doesn't, with out blame and recrimination.

DH
10-07-2011, 02:54 PM
Perhaps that is the whole spiritual practice: finding what what works for us and what doesn't, with out blame and recrimination.
Finding...?
We could call it "The twenty year technique of stumbling around trying to find, or discover and reproduce a feeling"...instead of using accurate teaching models with words and concepts to replicate it over and over, person to person, that have been around for generations.
I don't see how withholding information or not having any at all is spiritual. Isn't spirituality about enlightment? I'd rather enlighten people searching by showing them..or at least give them a candle.;)
"Move your insides!!"
"I just did after coffee this morning! Did you mean something else? I dunno it felt correct to me at the time.:D
There is a better way to communicate what is a classic model that produces correct feeling, Mary.
Dan

RonRagusa
10-07-2011, 03:18 PM
So how does telling them to move "with correct feeling" help them do that?

[Technical thread drift]

Hi Katherine -

Students are not told to move with correct feeling. Students are given exercises and drills, solo and partnered, to practice which foster coordination of mind and body, the result of which is correct feeling. Correct feeling isn't some magical state of being that's arrived at via esoteric practices. Correct feeling arises from and is polished and strengthened from lots of hard work and dedicated practice.

Best,

Ron

[/Technical thread drift]

graham christian
10-07-2011, 03:40 PM
Ha, ha. Funny how correct feeling keeps going on this spiritual thread.

I like it. Maybe if I take your attention off of the word correct and more onto feeling.

Physically you can touch and thus feel. Spiritually you can pervade, reach, connect with and thus feel. So spiritually you have this ability whether you are used to it or not.

Physically you cannot see or feel principles but spiritually you can.

So now let me take you into the field of acting, good actors. They can create a whole charachter and be it. They can create emotions and display them for real. Isn't that interesting? For they can also throw that emotion away, turn it on or off at will.

Now spiritually you can do this with your own emotions too. You can feel an emotion physically but that is the result of the emotion that you feel. Spiritually you can feel it and change it.

When you feel a negative emotion or let's say an unwanted feeling how do you feel? Would you like to get rid of it?

Well spiritually you can let it go to centre and dissappear at which point you will feel good. Correct feeling cause by correct action.

Thus the two are connected both if you are talking physically or spiritually or even mentally.

A student holding another in Aikido could be asked how do you feel? He may say uncomfortable, he may say a bit wary of his other hand for I think he can hit me. Thus incorrect feeling. Thus that alone can tell him something is out, something is amiss. Now the teacher corrects the hold or positioning and asks again how do you feel. Now he feels good. Correct feeling. Once again the two go together.

It's goes with correct movement, correct positioning, correct application, correct distance, etc. But even though it is the result of such therefore it is the best teacher.

Correct feeling is always a good feeling.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland
10-07-2011, 07:38 PM
Finding...?
We could call it "The twenty year technique of stumbling around trying to find, or discover and reproduce a feeling"...instead of using accurate teaching models with words and concepts to replicate it over and over, person to person, that have been around for generations.
I don't see how withholding information or not having any at all is spiritual. Isn't spirituality about enlightment? I'd rather enlighten people searching by showing them..or at least give them a candle.;)
"Move your insides!!"
"I just did after coffee this morning! Did you mean something else? I dunno it felt correct to me at the time.:D
There is a better way to communicate what is a classic model that produces correct feeling, Mary.
Dan

Dan, is this what you call a discussion? :)

I think a discussion involves minds that are open. I think in involves 2 or more parties that give and take. ;)

When I read your writings I don't always understand them yet I am open to their possibilites. I don't need to make them wrong or to poke fun. :D

Do you even own a hakama? :D

DH
10-07-2011, 10:51 PM
Dan, is this what you call a discussion? :)

I think a discussion involves minds that are open. I think in involves 2 or more parties that give and take. ;)

When I read your writings I don't always understand them yet I am open to their possibilites. I don't need to make them wrong or to poke fun. :D

Do you even own a hakama? :D
Geez...Well what's wrong with humor to make a point.:D
Take a poll and see how many would prefer actual words that impart physical changes that work every time compared to concepts that lack definition and by your own admission leave people to search for the feeling in practice. I can produce correct feeling at will under high stress with totally uncooperative people and teach people how to do it.....with words.;)

We are probably not arguing what you think correct feeling is but rather how to develop it and more importantly how well it gets developed.

I own three Hakama and hate wearing them. :cool:

Since we are on the topic. Your founder by his own words and the words of his son stated his budo informed his spirituality. His own words layed out a map of six direction awareness, heaven/earth/man, oppossing spiral energy, and breath power. How do you utilize that for correct feeling in line with your founders seminal work?
Dan

Walker
10-08-2011, 01:26 AM
I will just throw this out there in case there is someone for whom it might be of value.

We are men and women of Budo here and that should mean that we are practical people. I think I can safely say that no matter the venue the question is, "Does this produce a real and practical result in the observable world and is that result one I value?"
Does your physical practice?
Does your technical practice?
Does your mental practice?
Does your spiritual practice?

I can't but think Ueshiba's results were a product of this kind of ongoing questioning from the moment he met Takeda and said, "I want some of that." I think this because he taught someone who taught someone who taught me. Sometimes you have to look your friend in the eye and ask, "How's that working out for you, really?"

How is Aikido (Aiki V3.3JPN) working out for you?

DH
10-08-2011, 08:18 AM
Hi Doug
I think the point is that Aikido is working out just fine for the majority of people....till they meet someone with Aiki-in the art or out.
There is a reason Ueshiba said " Takeda opened my eyes... to true budo."
The same holds true today...including the "I want some of that..." comment.

graham christian
10-08-2011, 11:49 AM
Bottom line is Spiritual power must lie in the realm of spirit.

Ability of spirit. True potential.

Regards.G.

Walker
10-08-2011, 04:20 PM
Have all the "power" there you want. If it stays in a make believe place, it remains make believe.

The cause of suffering is delusion.

graham christian
10-08-2011, 07:35 PM
Have all the "power" there you want. If it stays in a make believe place, it remains make believe.

The cause of suffering is delusion.

There is not make believe, it's here and now.

And it's all good.

Regards.g.

TheAikidoka
10-11-2011, 03:17 PM
spiritual power.

For me personally, having had time to digest the thread is as simple as the flow of a river. ;-) (not that simple really is it?, but I love a paradox).

It is simply having the personal spiritual power to act decisively, honestly and with intent, when in the face of great danger, to you life or somebody elses. Because danger/fear, are paralysing.

It can be said as, "to be able to do the right thing".
you see a homeless person, and although you may be able to help in some small way, you ignore the reality and walk on by.

You see someone being beaten up in the street, you turn the other way and ignore it as if it is not happening, instead of doing something as simple as calling the police to say someone is being hurt can you please come and help, if you do not have the skills to break it up yourself, but you can still act.

If your intent is to act/help, and not ignore this reality, and to be able to do this with humility, and without a sense of personal gain, and the feeling of "this is the right thing to do", is this not true spiritual power.

Is this not what we teach in a very subtle way in the martial arts. Act even though you maybe putting yourself in danger, dont freeze and ignore the realities of life around you.

How simple this sounds, why is it so difficult in reality?

In peace

Andy B

graham christian
10-11-2011, 09:30 PM
spiritual power.

For me personally, having had time to digest the thread is as simple as the flow of a river. ;-) (not that simple really is it?, but I love a paradox).

It is simply having the personal spiritual power to act decisively, honestly and with intent, when in the face of great danger, to you life or somebody elses. Because danger/fear, are paralysing.

It can be said as, "to be able to do the right thing".
you see a homeless person, and although you may be able to help in some small way, you ignore the reality and walk on by.

You see someone being beaten up in the street, you turn the other way and ignore it as if it is not happening, instead of doing something as simple as calling the police to say someone is being hurt can you please come and help, if you do not have the skills to break it up yourself, but you can still act.

If your intent is to act/help, and not ignore this reality, and to be able to do this with humility, and without a sense of personal gain, and the feeling of "this is the right thing to do", is this not true spiritual power.

Is this not what we teach in a very subtle way in the martial arts. Act even though you maybe putting yourself in danger, dont freeze and ignore the realities of life around you.

How simple this sounds, why is it so difficult in reality?

In peace

Andy B

I like it Andrew. As you like paradoxes let me mention zen, as in zen koans and actions done by zen charachters in stories.

I would say they seem like paradoxes but actually come from a place of oneness. Thus in your examples it is looked at from the view of what you consider help to be. But does that come from that ultimate oneness?

From oneness the enlightened zen monk may do something you may find hard to believe as help. Those type of things I too find fascinating as when I first watched a strange film part written by bruce lee called 'the silent flute'

Lets take the story you give of the homeless person in the street.

In true oneness you would become aware of the whole of that person and what they need beyond the apparency. Thus you would act accordingly.

I'll make up a story based on that. So this monk was walking by and noticed that the beggar had a great history of not being listened to and communicated to in any meaningful manner. He had tried to find out why and given up and all this had led to his current position.

The monk walked up to him and said 'Hello, how are you?'
The beggar felt quite overwhelmed and found himself talking away like to a long lost friend and telling him all about his life. At the end he felt something he couldn't really explain, an extreme joy. The monk said' It's been nice talking to you' wished him well and went on his way.

The beggar meanwhile realized the answer to his question and became enlightened and thus changed his life.

Ultimate Aikido perhaps.

Regards.G.

TheAikidoka
10-12-2011, 03:23 PM
Exactly right, the monk did not ignore the reality, and probably already new the answer, but had to ask the question. How are you?

That my friend for me, was exactly what I was talking about. I did not mention anything about giving the homeless person money ;-)
I said you could help in some small way, how small an effort was it for the monk to ask the question? how nig was the effort to already know the answer?

It sums up exactly my last post exactly

Andy B

DodgingRain
10-26-2012, 02:54 AM
Interesting take on aikido..

http://www.youtube.com/user/Kakushitoride

DodgingRain
10-26-2012, 06:41 PM
I know someone else mentioned these guys before, but I think they are right up Graham's alley..
http://www.westlosangelesaikido.com/KakushiToride.html
Their training methodology is very interesting as well.

Much respect.