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mathewjgano
09-23-2011, 12:25 PM
What is it? How does it compare to other kinds of movement? I understand it is futile to map it out in its entirety, but to whatever extent it can be described, how can it be described?
Take care,
Matt

gregstec
09-23-2011, 02:35 PM
What is it? How does it compare to other kinds of movement? I understand it is futile to map it out in its entirety, but to whatever extent it can be described, how can it be described?
Take care,
Matt

What do you think it is? It could mean different things to different people.

At first thought, I envision a structure of double weight with the majority of weight on the upper and lower body of the same side with no cross balance to the other side of the body while leading and moving with the same side hand and foot forward - not a condition nor position I would want to be in during a martial conflict.

Greg

mathewjgano
09-23-2011, 03:29 PM
Hi Greg,
Thanks for the reply!
What do you think it is? It could mean different things to different people.

At first thought, I envision a structure of double weight with the majority of weight on the upper and lower body of the same side with no cross balance to the other side of the body while leading and moving with the same side hand and foot forward - not a condition nor position I would want to be in during a martial conflict.

Greg
My first thought was a funny way of walking I've seen mentioned by Rob John where the person tries to always keep the same side hand and foot moving forward.
After Dan's reply to me in the other thread (which seemed to rule that out), I keep thinking of the last seminar at my dojo where I was practicing suwari waza and sensei walked up and said to me, "what, did you have a stroke, bud?" because I was so focused on my right hand my whole left side was disengaged/"dead."
I'm still not confident I understand double weighting. Is that essentially when both legs have the same about of weight in them pushing down?

mathewjgano
09-23-2011, 03:49 PM
Is that essentially when both legs have the same about of weight in them pushing down?

My fingers seem to have a cold. That was supposed to be "amount."

gregstec
09-23-2011, 03:52 PM
Hi Greg,
Thanks for the reply!

My first thought was a funny way of walking I've seen mentioned by Rob John where the person tries to always keep the same side hand and foot moving forward.
After Dan's reply to me in the other thread (which seemed to rule that out), I keep thinking of the last seminar at my dojo where I was practicing suwari waza and sensei walked up and said to me, "what, did you have a stroke, bud?" because I was so focused on my right hand my whole left side was disengaged/"dead."
I'm still not confident I understand double weighting. Is that essentially when both legs have the same about of weight in them pushing down?

Some people call it that, but the IP guys I am familiar with don't. In short, double weight is what I described above - heavy weight in the upper and lower body of the same side with lighter weight in the other side of the body - I think we discussed that a little while ago here on Aikiweb

Also, a point to remember is that when when one part of the body moves, all parts should move as in whole body connection. If you are doing something on the right side of the body, the left side side needs to be doing something as well, preferably something that counter balances the energies on the other side - think in-yo :)

Greg

DH
09-23-2011, 04:21 PM
Good grief, Mat it aint rocket science. ;)
Ready
1. Go up to a guy
2. Pull his right arm out from his body and weight over his right leg.
Then?
3. Sweep the leg Johnny.:rolleyes:
It's only about thee most common way to throw a person known to man in all era's and cultures.

Next, watch people like they're on crack run at you and strike you with their right arm while their left arm is dead, and then watch them place their own weight onto their own same side leg.
It is ...beyond all doubt, some of the dumbest, most singularly uneducated modes of martial movement I have never seen.
It is throwing yourself.
It is among the chief reasons I have argued that ukemi; has never, and will never, teach you aiki. For most matters, it will destroy the development of aiki in you.
Now
The real work is how to change your own body so that doesn't happen, and what that does to people who try to double weight you through in yo ho.

All the best
Dan

phitruong
09-23-2011, 04:33 PM
Next, watch people like they're on crack run at you and strike you with their right arm while their left arm is dead, and then watch them place their own weight onto their own same side leg.
It is ...beyond all doubt, some of the dumbest, most singularly uneducated modes of martial movement I have never seen.
It is throwing yourself.
Dan

i think you just rattle boat load of aikido folks. i usually cringed when i saw that sort of thing.

DH
09-23-2011, 04:35 PM
i think you just rattle boat load of aikido folks. i usually cringed when i saw that sort of thing.
Ain't just Aikido dude! That was my point. Eliminate the running at people and you have a host of other arts all doing it. Which in and of itself, is why it is such a common method to throw people. ;)
Aikido-ka running at each other is a different topic all together, which I don't want to get into.
Dan

mathewjgano
09-23-2011, 05:00 PM
Good grief, Mat it aint rocket science.
Ready
1. Go up to a guy
2. Pull his right arm out from his body and weight over his right leg.
Then?
3. Sweep the leg Johnny.

:D Just checking, lol. I'm like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37v-6Zs5T10) guy (Warning it has language not suitable for some audiences): it's hard to pick the right idea sometimes. The phrasing reminds me a little of work where that "funny guy" keeps telling me the thing I'm moving is only heavy on the bottom (bottom-side weighting, I reckon:D ).

Janet Rosen
09-23-2011, 06:37 PM
Aikido-ka running at each other is a different topic all together, which I don't want to get into.
Dan

But...but....{evil grin}...running and throwing oneself into a roll is SO much fun and SUCH good exercise.

DH
09-23-2011, 08:36 PM
But...but....{evil grin}...running and throwing oneself into a roll is SO much fun and SUCH good exercise.
Well of course it can be fun. I used to call it "Catching air." Have fun, knock yourself out. Ukemi and that trained feedback loop of timing and balance is fun.
But take away that trained internal failure that makes you so easy to be thrown and replace it with a body trained in in yo ho and the whole thing stops. Your arts waza will not work on a person with aiki without them totally falling apart by choice-if they even could. It is very difficult to shut off.
Hence your founders comments.
You cannot do what I do because you do not understand in yo ho.
Cheers
Dan

mjchip
09-24-2011, 05:45 AM
Hence your founders comments.
You cannot do what I do because you do not understand in yo ho.
Cheers
Dan

....and this is by design.

The common methods used to "teach" today focus on teaching well intentioned students how to beautifully apply "icing" to an ill-baked "cake". The cake recipe was and is kept a family guarded secret.

After decades of this we now have many master cake decorators to learn from. There are still a few master bakers around but slowly they are passing and the secret cake recipe vanishes with them.

M

sakumeikan
09-24-2011, 09:01 AM
Dear all,
I would like to mention that if one is doing aikiken the posture is usually predominently right foot forward,For Aikijo the opposite is true.ie left foot forward.As far as anybody running towards a person is concerned thats silly.If you move forward with one foot forward as previously described and allow anybody to break your posture or pin your weight onto the front /leading As it happens you can counter Ashi waza with Ashi waza. foot , you deserve to be a victim of ashi waza,MostJudoka [in migi/hidari shizentai ] get caught with sasae tsurikomi ashi /okuri ashi harai.Hiza Goruma is also an option.Karateka usually do the footsweeps as well. cheers, Joe

sakumeikan
09-24-2011, 09:03 AM
Sorry folks my typing got a bit wobbly last blog.Joe.

DH
09-24-2011, 09:08 AM
Joe
In regard to double weighting: Having a foot forward...any foot... has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter where the feet are, and has no relation to a "posture."

sakumeikan
09-25-2011, 02:46 PM
Joe
In regard to double weighting: Having a foot forward...any foot... has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter where the feet are, and has no relation to a "posture."
Dear Dan,
I was not relating to double weighting.I was simply pointing out to any aikidoka who does weapons a basic point.I also made reference to ashi waza in Judo.I would be grateful if you would be so kind {and in words of one syllable preferably ]what your views /theories are.I am sure I would find your thoughts/viewpoint of interest. Cheers, Joe.

DH
09-25-2011, 04:00 PM
Dear Dan,
I was not relating to double weighting.I was simply pointing out to any aikidoka who does weapons a basic point.I also made reference to ashi waza in Judo.I would be grateful if you would be so kind {and in words of one syllable preferably ]what your views /theories are.I am sure I would find your thoughts/viewpoint of interest. Cheers, Joe.
Joe
I did...

FWIW, the fix or repair has nothing to do with exposure to leg sweeping, The training many of us are talking about changes your body so even when you are exposed they really can't do much.
I don't expect you to understand. I haven't met an aikido-ka yet that knew of this. Conversely, I have never met an Aikido-ka who ever wanted to go back to they way they were thinking and moving before. There are hundreds of them here, just ask.
It's a superior way to move the body and it's a hell of a lot of work, but it's fun in the end.
Ueshiba not only talked about it, he drew a freakin map that about a million Chinese would recognize. Saito, Stevens and others didn't even translate sections. They either skipped over them or mistranslated due to not understanding erstwhile known trade jargon. in short they, like others didn't have clue what he was talking about either.
Cheers
Dan.

sakumeikan
09-26-2011, 02:47 AM
Joe
I did...

FWIW, the fix or repair has nothing to do with exposure to leg sweeping, The training many of us are talking about changes your body so even when you are exposed they really can't do much.
I don't expect you to understand. I haven't met an aikido-ka yet that knew of this. Conversely, I have never met an Aikido-ka who ever wanted to go back to they way they were thinking and moving before. There are hundreds of them here, just ask.
It's a superior way to move the body and it's a hell of a lot of work, but it's fun in the end.
Ueshiba not only talked about it, he drew a freakin map that about a million Chinese would recognize. Saito, Stevens and others didn't even translate sections. They either skipped over them or mistranslated due to not understanding erstwhile known trade jargon. in short they, like others didn't have clue what he was talking about either.
Cheers
Dan.
Dan ,
Why imply that I would not understand ?Also you in effect belittle SaitoSensei by implying he never had a clue.So millions?of Chinese and you know the secret?Must ask my Chinese takeaway guy to clue me in.If he cannot at least he will show me how to do a Sweet and Sour dish. Cheers, Joe.

DH
09-26-2011, 05:16 AM
Dan ,
Why imply that I would not understand ?Also you in effect belittle SaitoSensei by implying he never had a clue.So millions?of Chinese and you know the secret? Must ask my Chinese takeaway guy to clue me in.If he cannot at least he will show me how to do a Sweet and Sour dish. Cheers, Joe.
Nice....
First up your answer to the thread was revealing. I didn't imply...you wouldn't understand. I think your answer revealed that you didn't understand. If you wanted to say something different than what you did say...how do I own that? And hey..so what if you didn't understand?. You're a nice chap, I have no reason to imply/suggest or want people to feel bad or be wrong, otherwise I would not be taking part in discussions so more and more us..me and you...can be right! ;)

As for Saito
Why is it that not knowing something belittles people?
When did we become all knowing and hyper sensitive?
Almost all of those guys were not conversant in Traditional weapons as well. Was there a requirement for them to be so? Are they belittled for not knowing? They admitted they were not.
Yet every time one of them even whispers a word about sword everyone hushes to listen.
I think the nature of your question is key to the real issue, and that was the assumption of so many Westerners that their teachers with Asian faces were all knowing, so when caught short of the full knowledge of their cultures arts...they are some how belittled. It's nonsense.
There were any number of second and third son wanna-bes, ner do wells and untalented egg heads struggling in the Asian arts as we see in the West. Putting a black belt or silk outfits on them and shipping them overseas did not make them experts in any way. And please do not imply that I am saying that was Saito, or Shirata, or Shioda, etc.

There were any number of these young men who willingly stated that they had no idea what Ueshiba was talking about. They were upfront and vocal about that. Should we apologize that we...do understand things that they...admit they didn't? Seriously?
Would you feel better if I was a Japanese Shihan telling you that a Japanese Shihan doesn't know everything?
What about actual feet on the ground, rubber meets the road, skills? What if some very real shortcomings are in existence there as well?
Again are these poor guys -who otherwise do well- now required to know everything and be faulted for not knowing.

Suffice to say that Asians, like everyone else, were mostly (not all) good people doing their level best, but suffered for lack of information and talent like everywhere else in the world.


New translations
I made a single line reference to some new translations work being done. It is irrefutable and one of the Shihan who did the previous translation work was recently asked why he mistranslated certain things, Joe.
You know what he said?
"I didn't know what he was talking about there."
There ya go.

What is true is that many times what Ueshiba was talking about is practiced in other arts (like the ICMA) every day and some of his writings are actually copies, almost word for word of Chinese material.
Are we supposed to apologize, cover it up again like so many things have been, or simply tell the truth? There are many inept teachers in the arts...who wear an Asian face. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, so they can get away with much. Westerners wanting to import Eastern expertise, imprint it on an Asian face who has some credentials. In an era where the Aikikai is talking about the Ura of Aikido needing to be only learned and graded in Japan and Menkyos are stating that the gokui is reserved for the Japanese, and Grand master level Chinese teachers are not producing foreign grand masters, I would expect this type of complaint from an Asian teacher, not a Westerner.
It is what it is.
Regards
Dan

Tim Ruijs
09-26-2011, 05:42 AM
Ukemi will not teach you aiki. But it is considered privilige to take ukemi from your teacher, not? One might argue that when you experience kuzushi first hand, you get good reference material for your own practise (to develop aiki).

DH
09-26-2011, 06:00 AM
Ukemi will not teach you aiki. But it is considered privilige to take ukemi from your teacher, not? One might argue that when you experience kuzushi first hand, you get good reference material for your own practise (to develop aiki).
There is a reason that koryu had the teachers taking the ukemi. When I teach people to do certain things I have them feel it and then I take the ukemi and lead them, then, make it harder, then harder.
Ideally, good "aiki training," will cancel out ukemi, The better your body is and the better you do certain things; within and without, you're just gonna get tougher and tougher to be thrown. So why is falling apart willingly a good thing? That just benefits the teacher.
I think the whole aikido model is backward. The teacher should be taking ukemi all the time. Think of this, what if you went to class tomorrow and for the next year three shihan were your uke day after day? Which way do you think you would learn faster? :cool:

All that said, thee best way to learn aiki...is solo work. Aiki is generated by your connected body first and foremost not running around and trying to blend! Only after some serious training will weird things start to happen like them losing their feet and kuzushi on contact, changing their changes, with nary a thought from you.
Ukemi is trying to learn from the outside in and you will not get the higher level stuff that way...no thanks.
Dan

Tim Ruijs
09-26-2011, 06:21 AM
Thanks,

Funny that you mention the (common) Aikido teaching paradigm is backwards. In my dojo I always point out falling is not a goal. You try to off balance the other. Like you said gradually make it harder and harder. When practised this way ukemi becomes an escape of necessity, not of will.

Some Shihan will take ukemi from you, while others never ever do....

DH
09-26-2011, 07:30 AM
Joe
As you might recall as you were part:
Regarding translations, industrial Jargon and familiarity with the work being translated, you might want to look here. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=288667&postcount=98) It's part of the Kamae problem thread under the teaching forum Post #65 forward.
Dan

gregstec
09-26-2011, 08:03 AM
Thanks,

Funny that you mention the (common) Aikido teaching paradigm is backwards. In my dojo I always point out falling is not a goal. You try to off balance the other. Like you said gradually make it harder and harder. When practised this way ukemi becomes an escape of necessity, not of will.

Some Shihan will take ukemi from you, while others never ever do....

I agree falling is not the goal of Ukemi, but that is where most folks perceive it to be. To me, ukemi is receiving and the falling part is where I can no longer control the receiving. I am with Dan (of course) on the effectiveness of Ukemi in learning aiki, but I do think it can play a roll in practicing aiki by allowing one to exercise their aiki when receiving as well as in measuring effectiveness in students when receiving as a teacher.

Greg

DH
09-26-2011, 08:11 AM
I agree falling is not the goal of Ukemi, but that is where most folks perceive it to be. To me, ukemi is receiving and the falling part is where I can no longer control the receiving. I am with Dan (of course) on the effectiveness of Ukemi in learning aiki, but I do think it can play a roll in practicing aiki by allowing one to exercise their aiki when receiving as well as in measuring effectiveness in students when receiving as a teacher.

Greg
I agree with a need for ukemi as it relates to established arts keeping and working within kata.
Beyond that, it's more fun and addicting to change, then change the change and stay ahead of the curve to open them up like a can opener...just when they swear they had you. :cool:

Tim Ruijs
09-26-2011, 08:40 AM
Most students seem to simply accept that when tori executes a technique (either good or bad), aite falls. Because they think thet is what is expected. Plain and simple. It takes effort to get rid of that mindset.
Dan's remark is an interesting one: it is what my teacher always says (and have Tamura heard saying on occasion): let them think they control you (in role of aite), but in fact it is still you in control. That is where taking ukemi as a teacher is interesting and I will change my ways and start doing that. :)

sakumeikan
09-26-2011, 10:18 AM
Nice....
First up your answer to the thread was revealing. I didn't imply...you wouldn't understand. I think your answer revealed that you didn't understand. If you wanted to say something different than what you did say...how do I own that? And hey..so what if you didn't understand?. You're a nice chap, I have no reason to imply/suggest or want people to feel bad or be wrong, otherwise I would not be taking part in discussions so more and more us..me and you...can be right! ;)

As for Saito
Why is it that not knowing something belittles people?
When did we become all knowing and hyper sensitive?
Almost all of those guys were not conversant in Traditional weapons as well. Was there a requirement for them to be so? Are they belittled for not knowing? They admitted they were not.
Yet every time one of them even whispers a word about sword everyone hushes to listen.
I think the nature of your question is key to the real issue, and that was the assumption of so many Westerners that their teachers with Asian faces were all knowing, so when caught short of the full knowledge of their cultures arts...they are some how belittled. It's nonsense.
There were any number of second and third son wanna-bes, ner do wells and untalented egg heads struggling in the Asian arts as we see in the West. Putting a black belt or silk outfits on them and shipping them overseas did not make them experts in any way. And please do not imply that I am saying that was Saito, or Shirata, or Shioda, etc.

There were any number of these young men who willingly stated that they had no idea what Ueshiba was talking about. They were upfront and vocal about that. Should we apologize that we...do understand things that they...admit they didn't? Seriously?
Would you feel better if I was a Japanese Shihan telling you that a Japanese Shihan doesn't know everything?
What about actual feet on the ground, rubber meets the road, skills? What if some very real shortcomings are in existence there as well?
Again are these poor guys -who otherwise do well- now required to know everything and be faulted for not knowing.

Suffice to say that Asians, like everyone else, were mostly (not all) good people doing their level best, but suffered for lack of information and talent like everywhere else in the world.

New translations
I made a single line reference to some new translations work being done. It is irrefutable and one of the Shihan who did the previous translation work was recently asked why he mistranslated certain things, Joe.
You know what he said?
"I didn't know what he was talking about there."
There ya go.

What is true is that many times what Ueshiba was talking about is practiced in other arts (like the ICMA) every day and some of his writings are actually copies, almost word for word of Chinese material.
Are we supposed to apologize, cover it up again like so many things have been, or simply tell the truth? There are many inept teachers in the arts...who wear an Asian face. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, so they can get away with much. Westerners wanting to import Eastern expertise, imprint it on an Asian face who has some credentials. In an era where the Aikikai is talking about the Ura of Aikido needing to be only learned and graded in Japan and Menkyos are stating that the gokui is reserved for the Japanese, and Grand master level Chinese teachers are not producing foreign grand masters, I would expect this type of complaint from an Asian teacher, not a Westerner.
It is what it is.
Regards
Dan
Like any other group be it aikido or whatever there will always be a peer group.Like you I agree that not everyone has /makes the Grade A .I am also aware that for possible political /social/the maintainance of exclusiveness etc not all of the message of O Sensei was transmitted.My view is this with the widespread growth of Aikido a degree of dilution took place.Even at Aikikai level.
I have seen this at first hand in the U.K.Grades are sometimes self promotions.We really need to try and get back to the roots.So rather than possibly perceive me as a potential critic why do you not
perceive me as someone who genuinely want to address these important issues-better still resolve them.
I also do not doubt that a translation of any text can be subject to mis interpretation by the person translating the subject.I would be interested in any newly translated document which gave an alternative view of O senseis material. All the best , Joe.

bob_stra
10-01-2011, 09:35 AM
Some people call it that, but the IP guys I am familiar with don't. In short, double weight is what I described above - heavy weight in the upper and lower body of the same side with lighter weight in the other side of the body - I think we discussed that a little while ago here on Aikiweb

Also, a point to remember is that when when one part of the body moves, all parts should move as in whole body connection. If you are doing something on the right side of the body, the left side side needs to be doing something as well, preferably something that counter balances the energies on the other side - think in-yo :)

Greg

My understanding is that double weighted more or less translates to "don't commit kuzushi upon yourself".

In so much as what CXW is discussing in the following clip (4:00 onwards), it doesn't seem to have much to do with weight distribution between feet, stance or the like, directly. Rather it seems more like "don't get stuck, because....".

Of course, YMMV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxrdPNw4Nyo