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DH
09-16-2011, 10:58 AM
I would like to open with a discussion of O sensei by his son, Kisshomaru in... "A life in Aikido."
After a recent seminar, I was reading and reflecting on a direction, and and the continued discovery of the ignorance of such basics as the warm up exercises in the art and how and why they were done, what they were for and what they were meant to deliver to the adept.
_________________
"...since O sensei had made his search for the true path of Aiki the center of his life, I don't think these "legendary feats" were all he intended to do. But since Aikido was still at an early stage, I think he used these feats as a means to explain and promote Aikido to the masses, who might not easily acknowledge it without power or the proof of power. In other words, my sense is that O sensei's legendary feats were intended not only to demonstrate or show off what he could do, but to create and opportunity for the introduction of a true martial art.
O sensei could use some rather dramatic methods to show what Takemusu Aiki...was."
_________________

I think this stands in stark contrast to what has become of the art in the hands of those who thought to pursue it's higher goals without the means to deliver as martial artists. It strains credibility to be copying the trappings of a martial art without the means to deliver. And apparently the more one researches and reads, the more one discovers that the arts founder not only shared the same view, but stressed it continually.

Of interest, in the same chapter, We find a discussion of Kito ryu as the study of In yo ho, with direct correlation to Ueshiba's pursuit in Daito ryu's aiki in yo ho, with the advice that one cannot pursue one or the other, but must maintain the union of opposites to be effective. This lines up with the new translations currently taking place and those, fit in well with the Chinese models. Yet we hear these same sayings (which the non-aikido people understand)... were un-intelligible to those students of Aikido who would become the Japanese teachers the Aikido community is currently following.

I think that nothing has changed from the post war taking over of Kisshomaru to today. I believe O sensei's famous entry comment "This is not my Aikido" into the post war dojo, would be used upon his entry into the majority of modern dojo, were he alive today. I keep hearing this assessment stated by Shihan and teachers I am meeting. "I think we missed it." "I do not believe that we would withstand O sensei's scrutiny of our methods today." I think O sensei, would no doubt agree. For most, they cannot enter into an informed discussion on the tenets of in yo ho and how it applies to effective movement, much less how it would be the cornerstone of soft power in a martial art based on Aiki. It appears that once they experience aiki and the ability to generate power, they now agree that were O sensei to re-enter the picture today, his entry would sunder the Aikdo community, as many, if not most, would have to re-wire or leave. In other words, his re-entry would turn modern Aikido on its head.

Against outside pressure, Ueshiba's pursuit of effective power as the core of Aikido would withstand the current demands, would withstand critical review for internal power and aiki and he would in fact, get along with and have more in common with those pursuing that as the foundation of their aikido than the current methods of the majority practicing the art.
Thoughts?
Dan

chillzATL
09-16-2011, 12:34 PM
I would like to open with a discussion of O sensei by his son, Kisshomaru in... "A life in Aikido."
After a recent seminar, I was reading and reflecting on a direction, and and the continued discovery of the ignorance of such basics as the warm up exercises in the art and how and why they were done, what they were for and what they were meant to deliver to the adept.
_________________
"...since O sensei had made his search for the true path of Aiki the center of his life, I don't think these "legendary feats" were all he intended to do. But since Aikido was still at an early stage, I think he used these feats as a means to explain and promote Aikido to the masses, who might not easily acknowledge it without power or the proof of power. In other words, my sense is that O sensei's legendary feats were intended not only to demonstrate or show off what he could do, but to create and opportunity for the introduction of a true martial art.
O sensei could use some rather dramatic methods to show what Takemusu Aiki...was."
_________________

I think this stands in stark contrast to what has become of the art in the hands of those who thought to pursue it's higher goals without the means to deliver as martial artists. It strains credibility to be copying the trappings of a martial art without the means to deliver. And apparently the more one researches and reads, the more one discovers that the arts founder not only shared the same view, but stressed it continually.

Of interest, in the same chapter, We find a discussion of Kito ryu as the study of In yo ho, with direct correlation to Ueshiba's pursuit in Daito ryu's aiki in yo ho, with the advice that one cannot pursue one or the other, but must maintain the union of opposites to be effective. This lines up with the new translations currently taking place and those, fit in well with the Chinese models. Yet we hear these same sayings (which the non-aikido people understand)... were un-intelligible to those students of Aikido who would become the Japanese teachers the Aikido community is currently following.

I think that nothing has changed from the post war taking over of Kisshomaru to today. I believe O sensei's famous entry comment "This is not my Aikido" into the post war dojo, would be used upon his entry into the majority of modern dojo, were he alive today. I keep hearing this assessment stated by Shihan and teachers I am meeting. "I think we missed it." "I do not believe that we would withstand O sensei's scrutiny of our methods today." I think O sensei, would no doubt agree. For most, they cannot enter into an informed discussion on the tenets of in yo ho and how it applies to effective movement, much less how it would be the cornerstone of soft power in a martial art based on Aiki. It appears that once they experience aiki and the ability to generate power, they now agree that were O sensei to re-enter the picture today, his entry would sunder the Aikdo community, as many, if not most, would have to re-wire or leave. In other words, his re-entry would turn modern Aikido on its head.

Against outside pressure, Ueshiba's pursuit of effective power as the core of Aikido would withstand the current demands, would withstand critical review for internal power and aiki and he would in fact, get along with and have more in common with those pursuing that as the foundation of their aikido than the current methods of the majority practicing the art.
Thoughts?
Dan

Nice read Dan,

IMO, he never intended for everyone to get it. He had more than enough years to complain about the direction things were going, but apart from a few references to him blowing up about how it was being practiced, he seemed ok with it overall. He produced a few students of worth and probably felt that his students would do the same, but as far as everyone understanding? His teacher spoke clearly against that actually and while he may have wanted to change things, he doesn't seem to have wanted to change that.

As for people today, even with clear instruction of internal skills, I don't think it would change much. You would have a few people of real ability and a bunch of people who show up, put in their time and go home. As you know, without a serious investment of time, effort and brain you're only going to get so far. That's really no different than anything though, martial arts or otherwise. Few people care to be excellent.

What matters most, IMO, is clear instruction and understanding. When you have clear,understandable ways of explaining things then you have something that people can learn even when they might not have someone of excellence there to teach them. IS, to this point, simply has not had that.

mathewjgano
09-16-2011, 10:54 PM
Hi Dan,
We find a discussion of Kito ryu as the study of In yo ho, with direct correlation to Ueshiba's pursuit in Daito ryu's aiki in yo ho, with the advice that one cannot pursue one or the other, but must maintain the union of opposites to be effective.
Can this also be read as "one cannot pursue the in yo ho of Kito ryu or the in yo ho of Daito ryu, but must maintain in yo ho to be effective"? Possibly as a description of how the essence is more important than the form?

Against outside pressure, Ueshiba's pursuit of effective power as the core of Aikido would withstand the current demands, would withstand critical review for internal power and aiki and he would in fact, get along with and have more in common with those pursuing that as the foundation of their aikido than the current methods of the majority practicing the art.
Thoughts?
Of course I'm not as scholarly on these things as you and a lot of other people are, but similar to Jason, I wonder if O Sensei simply wasn't concerned with everyone "getting it;" perhaps having the view that people will tend to fall into whatever role that best suits them?
Take care,
Matt

Chris Li
09-17-2011, 02:21 AM
Hi Dan,

Can this also be read as "one cannot pursue the in yo ho of Kito ryu or the in yo ho of Daito ryu, but must maintain in yo ho to be effective"? Possibly as a description of how the essence is more important than the form?


Hey Dan, could you tell me what chapter you're looking at? I have a copy, but only the Japanese edition...

I'll check it out when I get home, I'm in California taking my daughter to college. Damn, I feel old walking around here.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
09-18-2011, 06:13 PM
Maybe it all traces back to the eight powers of the kotodama,

Just maybe.G.

graham christian
09-21-2011, 11:10 AM
I see many people discussing power and wonder what they believe power is and also which power they are talking about. Then I also wonder how all this fits Aikido.

Power to me is a position or condition. Through study and practice you gain an ability and then you can use that ability to create a desired effect. You are now in a position of power with regards to that particular action. It's quite normal so what's the significance?

A guy in charge of something is in a position of power.

Whatever ability a person learns and thus can do puts them in a condition of power. So once again what is the significance?

More important to me is not power but the fact that with power comes the need for great responsibility. Thus responsibility is far more important and indeed necessary.

Power is enticing yet it is hollow.

So now back to Aikido. What has it to do with Aikido?

Using it to show you are more powerful? Using it to win? Using it to show superiority? Using it to prove 'martial effectiveness' ?

This is what a person needs to look at to clear in themselves what they are doing it for.

Personally I would say it is using it to both empower self and others. In fact I would say that the aim of my Aikido is a martial effectiveness that empowers others martial effectiveness.

Thus it is more than just empowering but empowering with responsibility. How to use power to bring about harmony and well being.

Regards.G.

gregstec
09-21-2011, 12:09 PM
I see many people discussing power and wonder what they believe power is and also which power they are talking about. Then I also wonder how all this fits Aikido.

Power to me is a position or condition. Through study and practice you gain an ability and then you can use that ability to create a desired effect. You are now in a position of power with regards to that particular action. It's quite normal so what's the significance?

A guy in charge of something is in a position of power.

Whatever ability a person learns and thus can do puts them in a condition of power. So once again what is the significance?

More important to me is not power but the fact that with power comes the need for great responsibility. Thus responsibility is far more important and indeed necessary.

Power is enticing yet it is hollow.

So now back to Aikido. What has it to do with Aikido?

Using it to show you are more powerful? Using it to win? Using it to show superiority? Using it to prove 'martial effectiveness' ?

This is what a person needs to look at to clear in themselves what they are doing it for.

Personally I would say it is using it to both empower self and others. In fact I would say that the aim of my Aikido is a martial effectiveness that empowers others martial effectiveness.

Thus it is more than just empowering but empowering with responsibility. How to use power to bring about harmony and well being.

Regards.G.

Graham.

It appears that you are out of alignment with Dan on what type of Power this thread was started to discuss. Below is from Dictionary.com:

"power   [pou-er] Show IPA
noun
1. ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.

2. political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.

3. great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.

4. the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.

5. political ascendancy or control in the government of a country, state, etc.: They attained power by overthrowing the legal government."

Dan is referring to power as defined by #3 and you are in #1 and to some extent #4.

So, with this in mind, what are your thoughts on power as defined by #3 and how you feel it relates to Ueshiba's Aikido ?

Greg

graham christian
09-21-2011, 01:03 PM
Graham.

It appears that you are out of alignment with Dan on what type of Power this thread was started to discuss. Below is from Dictionary.com:

"power   [pou-er] Show IPA
noun
1. ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.

2. political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.

3. great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.

4. the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.

5. political ascendancy or control in the government of a country, state, etc.: They attained power by overthrowing the legal government."

Dan is referring to power as defined by #3 and you are in #1 and to some extent #4.

So, with this in mind, what are your thoughts on power as defined by #3 and how you feel it relates to Ueshiba's Aikido ?

Greg

Interesting, thank you. As per number three? Well I'll try to answer as best I can.

First of all strength, might, force I would generally say is not to do with my Aikido but would qualify that as brute strength, might, force.

Secondly I would say that those things are generally equated with physical and include such energy as aggression etc. So once again I would say it's not my Aikido.

Thirdly as far as ueshiba goes I would say that before the war he too was employing that way of thinking to a large extent although continually seeking that 'something else' I would also say that before the war he sometimes showed that something else but was yet to fully grasp it.

Now after the war and more importantly after his realization regarding true budo I would say his whole view on power changed. Thus I would say what looked like force and strength and might was now no longer such and he himself would spend the next x amount of years trying to communicate and teach such.

Regards.G.

gregstec
09-21-2011, 01:17 PM
Interesting, thank you. As per number three? Well I'll try to answer as best I can.

First of all strength, might, force I would generally say is not to do with my Aikido but would qualify that as brute strength, might, force.

Secondly I would say that those things are generally equated with physical and include such energy as aggression etc. So once again I would say it's not my Aikido.

Thirdly as far as ueshiba goes I would say that before the war he too was employing that way of thinking to a large extent although continually seeking that 'something else' I would also say that before the war he sometimes showed that something else but was yet to fully grasp it.

Now after the war and more importantly after his realization regarding true budo I would say his whole view on power changed. Thus I would say what looked like force and strength and might was now no longer such and he himself would spend the next x amount of years trying to communicate and teach such.

Regards.G.

OK, in answer to that, go back and re-read Dan's first post in this thread and let us know how you think that compares to what you just posted above.

Greg

graham christian
09-21-2011, 01:33 PM
OK, in answer to that, go back and re-read Dan's first post in this thread and let us know how you think that compares to what you just posted above.

Greg

O.K. Done. Comparisons: His Aikido was different to what most thought it was. Others had a hard time understanding where he was coming from. That's about it.

Other things stated in that post imply he was searching for power, I disagree. I think too many equate him with Musashi.

If anything he was searching for responsibility not power in my view.

Regards.G.

gregstec
09-21-2011, 01:50 PM
I would like to open with a discussion of O sensei by his son, Kisshomaru in... "A life in Aikido."
After a recent seminar, I was reading and reflecting on a direction, and and the continued discovery of the ignorance of such basics as the warm up exercises in the art and how and why they were done, what they were for and what they were meant to deliver to the adept.


IMO, I feel that the warmup exercises have for the most part lost most of their substance and are essentially just a hollow shell of their original intent.

The approaches I have seen on these exercise have all been strictly external and focused on strengthening and loosening up muscle and joints. Now I believe that is part of what they were intended for, but I also think there is more to it that addresses internal development as well. However, without knowing what should be happening internally, that part of the exercise will be lost.

A basic tenet of internal skills training is the strengthening and development of the whole body connection of the fascia, ligaments, and tendons. What we do in our warmup exercises to support this, is to perform the stretch with an exhale totally relaxing all muscle while extending the stretch as far as possible. We will then hold that extension while doing a slight reverse breathing inhale. This will essentially inflate and add pressure inside the body along the path of the stretch. At this point we will then mentally explore that path with the mind by visualizing ki flow along the path. IMO, this approach brings together both aspects of the mind and body in the performance of the exercise. This approach was not something given to us directly by Dan or any other source, but it is something we have put together based on the concepts and principles of what we have been giving by Dan and other sources for our aiki development.

Greg

gregstec
09-21-2011, 02:01 PM
O.K. Done. Comparisons: His Aikido was different to what most thought it was. Others had a hard time understanding where he was coming from. That's about it.

Other things stated in that post imply he was searching for power, I disagree. I think too many equate him with Musashi.

If anything he was searching for responsibility not power in my view.

Regards.G.

OK, so what is agreed is that most people today are not doing Ueshiba's aikido -

As far as what he was searching for, I do not think anyone can say for sure because people today are not doing what he was doing and we can't ask him for clarification - so all that leaves is speculation and entertaining discussions :)

Greg

chillzATL
09-21-2011, 02:05 PM
IMO, I feel that the warmup exercises have for the most part lost most of their substance and are essentially just a hollow shell of their original intent.

The approaches I have seen on these exercise have all been strictly external and focused on strengthening and loosening up muscle and joints. Now I believe that is part of what they were intended for, but I also think there is more to it that addresses internal development as well. However, without knowing what should be happening internally, that part of the exercise will be lost.

A basic tenet of internal skills training is the strengthening and development of the whole body connection of the fascia, ligaments, and tendons. What we do in our warmup exercises to support this, is to perform the stretch with an exhale totally relaxing all muscle while extending the stretch as far as possible. We will then hold that extension while doing a slight reverse breathing inhale. This will essentially inflate and add pressure inside the body along the path of the stretch. At this point we will then mentally explore that path with the mind by visualizing ki flow along the path. IMO, this approach brings together both aspects of the mind and body in the performance of the exercise. This approach was not something given to us directly by Dan or any other source, but it is something we have put together based on the concepts and principles of what we have been giving by Dan and other sources for our aiki development.

Greg

I agree. At most you get people focusing on the movements of the exercise, but doing little else.

I'm also doing very similar things with those exercises these days myself. Sounds like something that could spin off into an interesting thread of its own...:)

gregstec
09-21-2011, 02:21 PM
I agree. At most you get people focusing on the movements of the exercise, but doing little else.

I'm also doing very similar things with those exercises these days myself. Sounds like something that could spin off into an interesting thread of its own...:)

Nah, it would just turn into one of those unruly 'how to' discussions where someone will start asking what are you smoking when you inhale and where does the shear come into play :freaky:

Greg

chillzATL
09-21-2011, 02:24 PM
Nah, it would just turn into one of those unruly 'how to' discussions where someone will start asking what are you smoking when you inhale and where does the shear come into play :freaky:

Greg

well you can ask about my inhale all day, but if you touch my shear you better at least have a beer in hand because we have protocols for such things here in the south!

graham christian
09-21-2011, 07:36 PM
OK, so what is agreed is that most people today are not doing Ueshiba's aikido -

As far as what he was searching for, I do not think anyone can say for sure because people today are not doing what he was doing and we can't ask him for clarification - so all that leaves is speculation and entertaining discussions :)

Greg

Did I say that? No I didn't. For me all doing Aikido today are doing some of his Aikido. They should progress progress at their own pace and learn more and more. Hence it is a journey. Nowhere in my thinking or statements would I say people are not doing some part of his Aikido.

He said it one day in exhasperation to those particular people concerned at the time. I have said it to my students probably more than once to do with mine. What's the big significance?

He did say what he was searching for so it doesn't really need much speculation unless you don't believe him.

Regards.G.

DH
09-21-2011, 08:16 PM
He did say what he was searching for so it doesn't really need much speculation unless you didn't understand him.

What makes the softest aiki...is power
What generates control of others force into you that feels ghosty soft...is power.
What makes deadly atemi is power.
Most martial artists, do not understand power, which give those that do...power over them.
It is not about strength for force on force. Continually bringing it up shows how far people are off from understanding their own founders message.
Using small effort to move a large force requires power unseen or felt.
Using 5 and 5 to defeat ten is power unseen.
7 and 3 to defeat ten requires power unseen.
The source of that power is Aiki in yo ho.

Takeda knew it
Sagawa trained it and talked about it
"However closely you watch my Aiki from the outside you will not understand. That's because I remove the power from my opponent through internal movements that do not show in the outer form. Now I am able to remove the enemy's power no matter where on my body I am grabbed. The source of this begins from a simple principle,(aiki in yo ho) but nobody understands. You can see whether somebody understands by watching their Aiki-age."

Ueshiba trained it and talked about it
Henry (Kono) asked O-sensei "Why can we not do what you do, Sensei?" O-Sensei's reply was direct, simple and final, "Because you don't understand in yo ho."
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."
"The way of the mountain echo is intent, standing in the center of the connection between the ki of heaven and the ki of the earth."

Tohei trained it and talked about it
Shirata trained it and talked about it
How you are meant to use it is the mystery that people do not understand. It is the source of aiki in-yo-ho. The very foundation of the entire art of Aikido....is power.

In his own words
Interestingly enough, Many of Ueshiba's commentaries are borrowed from Daito ryu and the Chinese arts. Some are almost word for word. In essence many of his Doka; Yin and Yang hand, dual opposing spirals, Six directions, Heaven/earth/man, mountain echo, are not his, they are concepts all borrowed from other arts.
And they were given to a student based completely incapable of even translating them correctly, much less defining and doing what he was apparently continually talking about.
When they were asked why they mistranslated, or skipped over translating these phrases on movement that were so dear to your founder that he repeated them over and over and are commonplace to about a million people, they said..
"We had no idea what they meant."
And they....became your teachers.

I agree with Both Sagawa and Ueshiba who is worth quoting again.
"Why can we not do what you do, Sensei?" O-Sensei's reply was direct, simple and final, "Because you don't understand in yo ho."

And Sagawa "All you need do is watch someone do aki age and you know if they understand in yo ho."
If you are not doing aiki in yo ho, you are not doing Aikido (the way of aiki). Ueshiba was right, it really is that simple.

Dan

graham christian
09-21-2011, 09:28 PM
Is that right???

He did say what he was searching for which was true budo. He finally found it too.

Power as a word used on it's own is hollow and I guarantee he did not say such things without qualification.

Henry kono did indeed ask such a question but the answer stated above has some add ons for he never mentioned in yo ho or anything else, he merely stated it was because he didn't understand yin and yang. No more.

Power over someone would be domination would it not? How many times did he say his Aikido was not about domination and control?

Regards.G.

Chris Li
09-21-2011, 10:29 PM
Is that right???

He did say what he was searching for which was true budo. He finally found it too.

Power as a word used on it's own is hollow and I guarantee he did not say such things without qualification.

Henry kono did indeed ask such a question but the answer stated above has some add ons for he never mentioned in yo ho or anything else, he merely stated it was because he didn't understand yin and yang. No more.

Power over someone would be domination would it not? How many times did he say his Aikido was not about domination and control?

Regards.G.

"Yin and yang" is Chinese. Ueshiba was speaking Japanese and would have said "In yo". "Ho" just means "method".

In and yo appear all through Ueshiba's writings - including the ones after he said that he had found "true budo". Also all of the other bits that Dan mentions. All of that is available in publicly available works.

Here's an interesting fact - Ueshiba wrote a commentary about how to do kokyu-ho, and one well known translation has it as "put ki energy into your fingertips" - only the original Japanese says "put power (力) into your fingertips". Do you begin to see the problem?

You mentioned "eight powers" in a previous post. OK, I'll bite - what are the eight powers, what do they mean, and where do they come from?

Best,

Chris

DH
09-21-2011, 10:46 PM
Chinese: Yin yang
Japanese- in yo ho (method) yes it is a method.
By definition it is not about power dominating...:rolleyes:
But you would have to understand what in yo ho means.
Which was more or less my point.

As I stated
Teachers in aikido don't get what their own founder was saying. It's not their fault, apparently it just isn't taught anymore, hence Ikeda going to Karate and Daito ryu to get it, others going elsewhere. I have read just about everything in English and it isn't there. It isn't in the interviews with the arts teachers. I now know the translators didn't know how to translate it correctly. They don't know the meaning of his terms, and they still don't understand his contextual referencing. As it was then, it is now, to the modern teachers...it's pretty much gobbledegook.

Some of us from...outside, are helping to fix this. Outside of Aikido -as aikido teachers attending seminars with teachers from other arts like the ICMA are finding out- this stuff is known. As one group of ICMA guys said to some aikido teachers: "Your art is a soft art, how come you guys don't know this stuff, what have you been doing?"

So we are trying hard to get the word out to aikido-ka, by reading it to them (their own translations are incorrect), teaching them where it came from, what it means, why their founder kept talking about it over and over and over and show them the same quotes from across the sea. Then we show them how to do it, and why it was important. So far it seems the teachers like it and find it important. Plus they get reading suggestions to awaken them to a world their founder was pointing to that they thought was indecipherable. It's one of the benefits of going out to learn.

As for in yo ho, as has been pointed out (but only to certain teachers) in watching Ueshiba videos....(and as Sagawa said) "You can see it instantly."
Hell, at certain points it was like Ueshiba was daring you. "Hey...look at me!" it was so obvious.
Dan

DH
09-21-2011, 10:49 PM
Oops...looks like we were both responding at the same time and you beat me to it, Chris. :D
All the best
Dan

Janet Rosen
09-21-2011, 11:45 PM
Thank you both Dan and Chris for excellent clarification.

DH
09-22-2011, 12:15 AM
You mentioned "eight powers" in a previous post. OK, I'll bite - what are the eight powers, what do they mean, and where do they come from?
Best,
Chris
And how do they relate to in yo ho?
Dan

Tim Ruijs
09-22-2011, 03:30 AM
To what extent would teaching method be of influence, and culture?


Teachers in aikido don't get what their own founder was saying. It's not their fault, apparently it just isn't taught anymore, hence Ikeda going to Karate and Daito ryu to get it, others going elsewhere.
Ikeda was taught by Tada; not just anybody. Still he needed to look elsewhere...
Would that be because the teachings of Tada were not understood by Ikeda or this subject was not taught explicitly? And, did Ueshiba 'teach' this? From what I understand he showed, dared to see, but never taught it. Or is this just about semantics?

graham christian
09-22-2011, 03:31 AM
"Yin and yang" is Chinese. Ueshiba was speaking Japanese and would have said "In yo". "Ho" just means "method".

In and yo appear all through Ueshiba's writings - including the ones after he said that he had found "true budo". Also all of the other bits that Dan mentions. All of that is available in publicly available works.

Here's an interesting fact - Ueshiba wrote a commentary about how to do kokyu-ho, and one well known translation has it as "put ki energy into your fingertips" - only the original Japanese says "put power (力) into your fingertips". Do you begin to see the problem?

You mentioned "eight powers" in a previous post. OK, I'll bite - what are the eight powers, what do they mean, and where do they come from?

Best,

Chris

O.K. Chris, thanks for the clarification. So in English he said yin and yang. Yes, and my not knowing the Japanese translation led me to assume that was an add on. For this I apologise and stand corrected.

Many things appear all through his writings so I fail to see the significance there.

Yes Chris I do see the problem and have for many years.

The eight powers? I have a feeling you already know so why do you ask?

Regards.G.

bob_stra
09-22-2011, 03:54 AM
As I understand it, in yo ho is the Japanese translation of ying-yang. But more then that, it refers to change from state A to B - specifically a bodily change.

As for 8 powers -

http://funsocialstudies.learninghaven.com/images/comp2.gif

graham christian
09-22-2011, 04:01 AM
Chinese: Yin yang
Japanese- in yo ho (method) yes it is a method.
By definition it is not about power dominating...:rolleyes:
But you would have to understand what in yo ho means.
Which was more or less my point.

As I stated
Teachers in aikido don't get what their own founder was saying. It's not their fault, apparently it just isn't taught anymore, hence Ikeda going to Karate and Daito ryu to get it, others going elsewhere. I have read just about everything in English and it isn't there. It isn't in the interviews with the arts teachers. I now know the translators didn't know how to translate it correctly. They don't know the meaning of his terms, and they still don't understand his contextual referencing. As it was then, it is now, to the modern teachers...it's pretty much gobbledegook.

Some of us from...outside, are helping to fix this. Outside of Aikido -as aikido teachers attending seminars with teachers from other arts like the ICMA are finding out- this stuff is known. As one group of ICMA guys said to some aikido teachers: "Your art is a soft art, how come you guys don't know this stuff, what have you been doing?"

So we are trying hard to get the word out to aikido-ka, by reading it to them (their own translations are incorrect), teaching them where it came from, what it means, why their founder kept talking about it over and over and over and show them the same quotes from across the sea. Then we show them how to do it, and why it was important. So far it seems the teachers like it and find it important. Plus they get reading suggestions to awaken them to a world their founder was pointing to that they thought was indecipherable. It's one of the benefits of going out to learn.

As for in yo ho, as has been pointed out (but only to certain teachers) in watching Ueshiba videos....(and as Sagawa said) "You can see it instantly."
Hell, at certain points it was like Ueshiba was daring you. "Hey...look at me!" it was so obvious.
Dan

I have responded to the first paragraph already so I need not repeat it.

I have said that most teachers said they didn't understand much of what he was saying at the time but that doesn't mean to me they didn't come to understand much of what he said.

I also disagree with the picture painted that he talked non stop about ip all the time if much at all.

All I see from what you say is daito ryu as per Takeda. To me that is far from Aikido as per O'Sensei.

Takeda had great skills and knowledge of internal arts. That's a different person and a different art. If he was to walk in most dojos he would probably handle all with ease no different to back then for he was exceptional at what he did. Still that is not Aikido.

On the other hand O'Sensei could enter any daito ryu place no doubt and do the same using his Aikido. Because he became an exceptional exponent too.

The only connection I see is historical.

People who learn these daito ryu skills or indeed bagua skills or whatever and find it helps them in their Aikido is fine by me. Nothing wrong with that.

As for teachers or Aikidoka for that matter then seeing videos and understanding them better and seeing things they hadn't seen before well I would expect that to be the case. Nothing new there to me and in fact I'm glad to hear it.

How many times have I heard students say out of the blue' ahh, so thats what ueshiba meant' or 'ahh so that's what he was doing, it's too simple!'

It shouldn't be an astounding event and for many I would say has probably happened on numerous occasions.

Regards.G.

grondahl
09-22-2011, 04:17 AM
Ikeda was taught by Tada; not just anybody. Still he needed to look elsewhere...


I think Dan is referring to Hiroshi Ikeda, not Masatomi Ikeda.

graham christian
09-22-2011, 04:17 AM
To what extent would teaching method be of influence, and culture?

Ikeda was taught by Tada; not just anybody. Still he needed to look elsewhere...
Would that be because the teachings of Tada were not understood by Ikeda or this subject was not taught explicitly? And, did Ueshiba 'teach' this? From what I understand he showed, dared to see, but never taught it. Or is this just about semantics?

Semantics I would say Tim. We can all look elsewhere and not see what was right in front of us. The Aikido word for yin yang would be harmony would it not? (in plain english) A much talked about thing by Ueshiba.

Regards.G.

graham christian
09-22-2011, 04:19 AM
As I understand it, in yo ho is the Japanese translation of ying-yang. But more then that, it refers to change from state A to B - specifically a bodily change.

As for 8 powers -

http://funsocialstudies.learninghaven.com/images/comp2.gif

More like eight directions to me Bob.

Regards.G.

Tim Ruijs
09-22-2011, 04:30 AM
The aha erlebnis is very recognisable. :D

What makes me wonder is why I am not able to find that missing piece of info myself? Funny thing is that one should let go of perfecting the self form....this would make the wish to make your technique perfect (and search for missing pieces) obsolete.

In this light I can somehow understand why it is so hard to really 'get' Aikido. I get the feeling that the analytical (western) approach fails miserably here.

Patrick Hutchinson
09-22-2011, 07:58 AM
Graham: why ask you to clarify?

Because a gnomic little interjection like that doesn't really come to grips with the discussion. It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"

Perhaps Chris does understand the reference. I'd certainly like to be enlightened as to what they are and how they relate to Dan's thesis.

And when you add "just maybe," to your comment, I infer that you're implying that you believe they are indeed related, and that you think the relationship is obvious.

So please explain. Thank you.

Patrick

bob_stra
09-22-2011, 08:04 AM
More like eight directions to me Bob.

Regards.G.

Actually, I believe it refers to the 'four main powers' (peng, lu, ji, and) and the four additives powers thereof.

Eg: http://www.taijigongfu.com/8energies.html


Eight historically recorded "powers" or methods. This word, powers, is a poor translation of the original word in Mandarin, "JIN" which has many meanings of course, some of which relate especially to martial arts.

In the martial arts, JIN means basically, power. It can also mean simply strength as in someone has a lot of strength. In the case of internal arts the meaning of "Jin" that we specifically use is that of a trained or cultivated strength or power. This refers to the power (or even utility) that manifests in a practitioner due to training, or simply in a specialized manner.


What do you think 8 powers refers to, Graham?

Tim Ruijs
09-22-2011, 08:28 AM
The approaches I have seen on these exercise have all been strictly external and focused on strengthening and loosening up muscle and joints. Now I believe that is part of what they were intended for, but I also think there is more to it that addresses internal development as well. However, without knowing what should be happening internally, that part of the exercise will be lost.


For several years I have trained in lineage of Nobuyoshi Tamura. He often did very extensive aiki taiso (about 40 minutes). Never explained anything. I have also practised under Suganuma Sensei, same story. How can you expect your students (some of which eventually become teachers) to understand? It is like to them these exercises are common knowledge (i.e. know what they are for), while for 'us' they are not and are basically left in the dark.

Sometimes I think this intentional...

gregstec
09-22-2011, 09:30 AM
For several years I have trained in lineage of Nobuyoshi Tamura. He often did very extensive aiki taiso (about 40 minutes). Never explained anything. I have also practised under Suganuma Sensei, same story. How can you expect your students (some of which eventually become teachers) to understand? It is like to them these exercises are common knowledge (i.e. know what they are for), while for 'us' they are not and are basically left in the dark.

Sometimes I think this intentional...

Maybe so - but maybe they DON'T know either because it was never explained to them as well :)

Greg

Tim Ruijs
09-22-2011, 09:43 AM
somehow I do not think so....

Janet Rosen
09-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Semantics I would say Tim. We can all look elsewhere and not see what was right in front of us. The Aikido word for yin yang would be harmony would it not? (in plain english) A much talked about thing by Ueshiba.

Regards.G.

No, the Japanese words for yin/yang are the two words in Japanese explained already in this thread. Yin and yang are two separate things and as I'm sure you know within medicine, the natural world, and yes in martial arts different phenomenon are ascribed as either yin or yang influenced...while harmony may be a desired state of balance in which a given thing is neither too yin nor too yang, how you think that the concepts and application can simply be reduced to "harmony" is beyond me.

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 10:15 AM
Semantics I would say Tim. We can all look elsewhere and not see what was right in front of us. The Aikido word for yin yang would be harmony would it not? (in plain english) A much talked about thing by Ueshiba.

Regards.G.

Nope - Ueshiba talked about "harmony" in various contexts, but it was, as in English, a different word.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 10:24 AM
Graham: why ask you to clarify?

Because a gnomic little interjection like that doesn't really come to grips with the discussion. It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"

Perhaps Chris does understand the reference. I'd certainly like to be enlightened as to what they are and how they relate to Dan's thesis.

And when you add "just maybe," to your comment, I infer that you're implying that you believe they are indeed related, and that you think the relationship is obvious.

So please explain. Thank you.

Patrick

Hey! What he said...

Best,

Chris

Walker
09-22-2011, 10:27 AM
Here's an interesting fact - Ueshiba wrote a commentary about how to do kokyu-ho, and one well known translation has it as "put ki energy into your fingertips" - only the original Japanese says "put power (力) into your fingertips". Do you begin to see the problem?

Hi Chris. Could you please look at what/how your computer is handling kanji? We are expecting big things from your translation efforts, but it is not going to help much if you can't show us the Japanese.

For example is the above 力, 呼吸力, 体力, something else?

I'd also be curious to know what verb he is using for "put."

Janet Rosen
09-22-2011, 10:30 AM
No, the Japanese words for yin/yang are the two words in Japanese explained already in this thread. Yin and yang are two separate things and as I'm sure you know within medicine, the natural world, and yes in martial arts different phenomenon are ascribed as either yin or yang influenced...while harmony may be a desired state of balance in which a given thing is neither too yin nor too yang, how you think that the concepts and application can simply be reduced to "harmony" is beyond me.

I want to add (had to leave to get somewhere...) that it is one thing to talk about metaphors, as in "oh, he must have meant....harmony" but in application this will not work - it is the actual things that are yin and yang that count.
A TCM practitioner cannot provide proper herbs and acupuncture on a metaphor of "harmony" - he needs to know what specifically is manifesting yin and what specifically is manifesting yang and how to guage which in and of itself is deficient or in a surplus and THEN figure out how to restore harmony.
If I understand Dan correctly - and I may be off base as we've still not met in real life! - in the martial arts application yin and yang similiarly is NOT a metaphor for an ideal state of harmony but actual things in their own right to be reckoned with.

DH
09-22-2011, 11:00 AM
You cannot in fact ...be...in harmony without in yo ho residing in yourself.
This is something which your founder continually stressed, it is an old concept and....
It is a teaching -that so far- I have never heard come out of the mouth of a living Aikido teacher, nor read in an interview, nor seen laid out in theory, practice or application on film.

Ueshiba:
右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

This of course directly relates to Chinese arts
Hon Jun Sheng:
I realized then that Chen Xin's model of the Host hand and guest hand; where the guest hand receives and the host hand guides in perfect balance.

Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

There are many more of these.

Of course these simple rules give way to depth and sophisticated methodology that remains consistent regardless of speed or pressures. Most people who are honest in their own practice know they cannot produce their vaunted "harmony" and control they are looking for under stress. They know they have to rely on too much cooperation. It is this deficit in understanding that is slowly redefining the art to fit this new standard or requirement. It is one that Ueshiba never had face or to consider.
It is because we fail to understand Aiki in yo ho
Which by the way is the cornerstone of Daito ryu, where he first learned its secrets.
"Takeda opened my eyes to true budo."

So from China, to Koryu to Daito ryu, to Aikido
All "Hidden In Plain Sight." (http://www.edgework.info/buy-martial-arts-book-Hidden-In-Plain-Sight.html)
What has become incredibly clear and certain is that Ueshiba Morihei was reciting prior works and understanding that fueled his arts. Many of his Doka..were not his at all.

Dan

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 11:55 AM
Hi Chris. Could you please look at what/how your computer is handling kanji? We are expecting big things from your translation efforts, but it is not going to help much if you can't show us the Japanese.

For example is the above 力, 呼吸力, 体力, something else?

I'd also be curious to know what verb he is using for "put."

Sorry, regular UTF-8 in Firefox, shouldn't be a problem - it isn't, in other forums, I think it's something in the way Aikiweb handles the kanji.

Anyway, it's "chikara" ("li", but not the same as my "Chris Li" :) ).

"yubisaki ni chikara wo irete" - so "put" is "ireru".

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 11:59 AM
I want to add (had to leave to get somewhere...) that it is one thing to talk about metaphors, as in "oh, he must have meant....harmony" but in application this will not work - it is the actual things that are yin and yang that count.
A TCM practitioner cannot provide proper herbs and acupuncture on a metaphor of "harmony" - he needs to know what specifically is manifesting yin and what specifically is manifesting yang and how to guage which in and of itself is deficient or in a surplus and THEN figure out how to restore harmony.
If I understand Dan correctly - and I may be off base as we've still not met in real life! - in the martial arts application yin and yang similiarly is NOT a metaphor for an ideal state of harmony but actual things in their own right to be reckoned with.

It is absolutely not metaphorical, that's becoming more and more evident - even in Ueshiba's own writings.

Best,

Chris

Thomas Campbell
09-22-2011, 12:09 PM
It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"

You have a very precocious 8-year-old, Patrick. ;)

The fresh perspective on Ueshiba Morihei's statements and how they have been translated, and the tie-in to Hong Junsheng's writing from Chen taijiquan (especially knowing about the teaching of Daito-ryu practitioners by Hong's student Liu Chengde) is very interesting. Thanks, Dan and Chris, for your contributions here.

graham christian
09-22-2011, 12:13 PM
Actually, I believe it refers to the 'four main powers' (peng, lu, ji, and) and the four additives powers thereof.

Eg: http://www.taijigongfu.com/8energies.html

What do you think 8 powers refers to, Graham?

Hi Bob. I see. So in taijigongfu that is what it refers to. O.K. Another thing learned.

In Aikido I use those compass points and we call it eight directions.

In Aikido however and specifically on Ueshiba's statements about it then eight powers is mentioned with relationship to the universe, life living and fundamental to Aikido. This eight powers is of the Kotodama, thus spiritual principles.

Regards G.

DH
09-22-2011, 12:18 PM
I want to add (had to leave to get somewhere...) that it is one thing to talk about metaphors, as in "oh, he must have meant....harmony" but in application this will not work - it is the actual things that are yin and yang that count.
A TCM practitioner cannot provide proper herbs and acupuncture on a metaphor of "harmony" - he needs to know what specifically is manifesting yin and what specifically is manifesting yang and how to guage which in and of itself is deficient or in a surplus and THEN figure out how to restore harmony.
If I understand Dan correctly - and I may be off base as we've still not met in real life! - in the martial arts application yin and yang similiarly is NOT a metaphor for an ideal state of harmony but actual things in their own right to be reckoned with.

Hello Kiddo

Aiki in yo ho is a means to create and retain a balance of yin and yang within yourself and then how it is manifest in meeting force. It is from there, in accord with the three origins: Heaven/Earth/Man, and self rotation, and spiral energy that we manifest "The eight powers." from in yo.

Metaphor is interesting in that in the classical or traditional sense it was always carried forth in scrolls or in poems (my sig line comes from a chinese classic poem), combined with hands on. Neither mode, in isolation, will suffice for true understanding. What I think is certain is that knowing the body parts is almost useless without the hands on. I think a whole lot of people are just kidding themselves.
In regards to his writings, I think most should just "Sit this one out." We've been there and done that. Except for Shirata, O sensei's deshi haven't come up with anything meaningful in the past that I am aware of. All we've gotten for their efforts was misstranslations and etherial nonsense or external power. Because of their own inability to understand (for whatever reason) the rest of us haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what the art truly meant to Ueshiba in his own words.

Ueshiba:
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」

"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."

How far back do we go to find the sources who held everyone else back, particularly the foreign students? Who knows.

Dan

graham christian
09-22-2011, 12:44 PM
Graham: why ask you to clarify?

Because a gnomic little interjection like that doesn't really come to grips with the discussion. It's like my 8 year-old saying "Yeah, but what about string theory, huh?"

Perhaps Chris does understand the reference. I'd certainly like to be enlightened as to what they are and how they relate to Dan's thesis.

And when you add "just maybe," to your comment, I infer that you're implying that you believe they are indeed related, and that you think the relationship is obvious.

So please explain. Thank you.

Patrick

Mmmm. A gnomic interjection? Ha, ha.

Firstly let's clear the scene. The thread was dead. No one was having much to do with it. I thought I'd get it going again. (who knows, maybe I felt sorry for Dan as he had started a thread and not many felt willing to participate) I respect those who start threads. In plain English, at that point in time there was no discussion active.

Secondly the title is meant to be what it says no? So various views on power from various sources are open to discussion not just one persons.

Thirdly may I congratulate you on having such an inquisitive and educated son.

Fourthly it may or may not relate to Dan's personal thesis. It relates to the subject.

Fifthly, I was communicating to Dan or referring to him and giving him the chance to offer his opinion. An exploratory comment. Any inference was me inferring that Ueshibas Aikido was based on Kotodama.

Regards.G.

gregstec
09-22-2011, 01:12 PM
Since the "Eight Powers of the Kototama" has been brought up, let me just throw this out there. The most prevalent reference to "Eight Powers' as it relates to Kototama can be found in the Dobun - here is a link to it on the aikidogaq site:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/dobun.html

This appears to be just another translated interpretation via a filtered perspective based on one's opinion of what Ueshiba was saying and writing. In order to find a more objective viewpoint of the Kototama, I went to Masahilo Nakazono's book Inochi; which goes into the Kototama in much detail. In the book there is no reference to Eight Powers' as explained in the Dobun, but there is reference to the four mother sounds of U, A, O, E and the eight father sounds/rhythms of T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S, which when combined create the child sounds.

Interesting enough though, there is reference in the Dobun and Inochi that support Dan's statement of:

"Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

In Inochi, Nakazona states that U' is the chaotic beginning and A' is the light of life; WA' is phenomena lit up by the light of A' , and each dimension is an independent manifestation. He also goes on to explain that A' represents the a priori and WA' the posteriori human capacity, which is connected via the I-WI' life force dimension, which is KI. In looking at Dan's statement above, you see that the point being made is that one part of the body is connected to "A" and the other WA' - or the spiritual and physical with the connection enabled by Ki - or the in-yo of the human existence.

Greg

graham christian
09-22-2011, 01:21 PM
You cannot in fact ...be...in harmony without in yo ho residing in yourself.
This is something which your founder continually stressed, it is an old concept and....
It is a teaching -that so far- I have never heard come out of the mouth of a living Aikido teacher, nor read in an interview, nor seen laid out in theory, practice or application on film.

Ueshiba:
右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

This of course directly relates to Chinese arts
Hon Jun Sheng:
I realized then that Chen Xin's model of the Host hand and guest hand; where the guest hand receives and the host hand guides in perfect balance.

Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

There are many more of these.

Of course these simple rules give way to depth and sophisticated methodology that remains consistent regardless of speed or pressures. Most people who are honest in their own practice know they cannot produce their vaunted "harmony" and control they are looking for under stress. They know they have to rely on too much cooperation. It is this deficit in understanding that is slowly redefining the art to fit this new standard or requirement. It is one that Ueshiba never had face or to consider.
It is because we fail to understand Aiki in yo ho
Which by the way is the cornerstone of Daito ryu, where he first learned its secrets.
"Takeda opened my eyes to true budo."

So from China, to Koryu to Daito ryu, to Aikido
All "Hidden In Plain Sight." (http://www.edgework.info/buy-martial-arts-book-Hidden-In-Plain-Sight.html)
What has become incredibly clear and certain is that Ueshiba Morihei was reciting prior works and understanding that fueled his arts. Many of his Doka..were not his at all.

Dan

I agree you cannot be in harmony without a balance of yin and yang, it's self evident as the whole theory of yin and yang is to do with harmony.

So when I use the word harmony or indeed ueshiba did it is self evident he was talking about things being in balance. I don't know of many martial arts who don't use the theory to one degree or another.

I mention and teach it non-stop as did my teacher and I'm sure many other teachers do too. So you not hearing it coming out of the mouth of any living Aikido teacher I find surprising. Or do you mean your particular take on it?

There are indeed many quotes of Ueshiba and until they are given in correct context, ie: when he said it, to whom he said it, relating to what at the time and put alongside what else he said at that particular time then a false picture may be adopted.

Of course things can be traced back to other times and other arts
just like English language can be traced back to various languages but if I want to study Latin I will do so as a separate thing for a separate reason and as a secondary thing it may no doubt improve my understanding of the English language.

I don't disagree that O'Sensei studied the things you talk about prior to developing his own Aiki budo later to be called Aikido.

To me personally it was a stage on his path which he passed through and that stage was called daito ryu. He moved on from there and as he said to Hikiksuchi "I have changed everything"

Thus I see Aikido differently to you. From my view that means what it says and no more. From others or maybe you it may mean many things. It may mean I'm therefore against you.....no. It may mean all kind of significances for people tend to think in terms of for or against. Oh well, that's their problem. I don't think that way.

Regards G.

DH
09-22-2011, 01:23 PM
Firstly let's clear the scene. The thread was dead. No one was having much to do with it. I thought I'd get it going again. (who knows, maybe I felt sorry for Dan as he had started a thread and not many felt willing to participate) I respect those who start threads. In plain English, at that point in time there was no discussion active.
No...you don't
I have asked you politely and respectfully not to engage me or my discussions. Essentially, to leave me alone. You continue to force me to tolerate you, unwillingly and there is not much I can do about it . Where is your statement of respect toward others?

I was communicating to Dan or referring to him and giving him the chance to offer his opinion. An exploratory comment. Any inference was me inferring that Ueshiba's Aikido was based on Kotodama.
Regards.G.
I have no interest in reading your views on anything relating to Martial arts, nor responding to you about them or hearing your replies. Please leave me alone
Notice there are no angry words, no sarcasm, nothing inferred, no insults...just another polite request for you to leave.
Dan

chillzATL
09-22-2011, 01:35 PM
Ueshiba:
右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

This of course directly relates to Chinese arts
Hon Jun Sheng:
I realized then that Chen Xin's model of the Host hand and guest hand; where the guest hand receives and the host hand guides in perfect balance.

Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."



Dan,

I assume those are the new translations. Do you by chance have the old ones, for comparison?

graham christian
09-22-2011, 01:46 PM
Since the "Eight Powers of the Kototama" has been brought up, let me just throw this out there. The most prevalent reference to "Eight Powers' as it relates to Kototama can be found in the Dobun - here is a link to it on the aikidogaq site:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/dobun.html

This appears to be just another translated interpretation via a filtered perspective based on one's opinion of what Ueshiba was saying and writing. In order to find a more objective viewpoint of the Kototama, I went to Masahilo Nakazono's book Inochi; which goes into the Kototama in much detail. In the book there is no reference to Eight Powers' as explained in the Dobun, but there is reference to the four mother sounds of U, A, O, E and the eight father sounds/rhythms of T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S, which when combined create the child sounds.

Interesting enough though, there is reference in the Dobun and Inochi that support Dan's statement of:

"Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

In Inochi, Nakazona states that U' is the chaotic beginning and A' is the light of life; WA' is phenomena lit up by the light of A' , and each dimension is an independent manifestation. He also goes on to explain that A' represents the a priori and WA' the posteriori human capacity, which is connected via the I-WI' life force dimension, which is KI. In looking at Dan's statement above, you see that the point being made is that one part of the body is connected to "A" and the other WA' - or the spiritual and physical with the connection enabled by Ki - or the in-yo of the human existence.

Greg

Greg. In the book by Nakazono I see no reference to that statement, however I may be wrong there. He mentions yin yang only once in the whole book.

He mentions the eight powers quite definitively which I do not see in the aikidofaq dobun. In fact he calls them the eight motive rhythms.

So maybe this is a case of misunderstanding, maybe partly caused by me.

The eight motive rhythms are individually called powers and they number eight in total.

Every one of them relates to Aikido as well as the universe itself.

In my view these things were the the base of Ueshibas Aikido and thus his interpretation is the manifestation of Aikido itself.

Transcending the realm of logic and as used in this society as explained in that book.

Regards.G.

DH
09-22-2011, 01:50 PM
Dan,

I assume those are the new translations. Do you by chance have the old ones, for comparison?
Hello Jason
You would have to go find them.
Some are mentioned in the Kamae thread here.
Interestingly there are whole paragraphs left out (not translated at all) in the middle of an explanation. One of which is Ueshiba describing an almost book match description of spiraling to taiji.
Others where John Stevens skipped Ueshiba's repeated use of six directions as 60deg in hanmi.
The reasons are not nefarious...it is ignorance of an almost mundane and pedestrian terminology by and large unknown to these men who went on to became our teachers. It's sad really.
Hence the reason I used one of my own seminars as an example; where almost twenty Aikido people (teachers and students) were standing in a room with eight ICMA (teachers and students) and the ICMA guys looked at the AIkido teachers and basically said How could you people NOT KNOW this stuff?
I honestly don't know who was more surprised when I began reading Ueshiba quotes out loud.
All the best
Dan
P.S. Hey I got your P.M.'s...it's all good dude. And yes I am re-thinking it. You couldn't fault me after hearing about the threats in public seminars. People can be very weird. What about this winter when it cools off?

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 01:52 PM
Dan,

I assume those are the new translations. Do you by chance have the old ones, for comparison?

The first one is pretty close:

"Manifest yang in your right hand, balance it with the yin of your left, and guide your partner."

The second one I'm not sure about - I was working from the originals...

Best,

Chris

DH
09-22-2011, 02:03 PM
Since the "Eight Powers of the Kototama" has been brought up, let me just throw this out there. The most prevalent reference to "Eight Powers' as it relates to Kototama can be found in the Dobun - here is a link to it on the aikidogaq site:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/dobun.html

This appears to be just another translated interpretation via a filtered perspective based on one's opinion of what Ueshiba was saying and writing. In order to find a more objective viewpoint of the Kototama, I went to Masahilo Nakazono's book Inochi; which goes into the Kototama in much detail. In the book there is no reference to ‘Eight Powers' as explained in the Dobun, but there is reference to the four mother sounds of U, A, O, E and the eight father sounds/rhythms of T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S, which when combined create the child sounds.

Interesting enough though, there is reference in the Dobun and Inochi that support Dan's statement of:

"Ueshiba again:
<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

In Inochi, Nakazona states that ‘U' is the chaotic beginning and ‘A' is the light of life; ‘WA' is phenomena lit up by the light of ‘A' , and each dimension is an independent manifestation. He also goes on to explain that ‘A' represents the a priori and ‘WA' the posteriori human capacity, which is connected via the ‘I-WI' life force dimension, which is KI. In looking at Dan's statement above, you see that the point being made is that one part of the body is connected to "A" and the other ‘WA' - or the spiritual and physical with the connection enabled by Ki - or the in-yo of the human existence.

Greg
Hi Greg
It is not my statement.

Ueshiba:
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force

Taiji has: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Zhou and Kao.

It was typical for Asian models to align the physical with the cosmos. It was the way it was done. Not knowing how they merge and diverge and what they meant is...why most "teachers".....teach what we now see.. as the way of aiki.

And that said, from my understanding there is quite a divergence on the understanding of the Kotodama and translations even within Japan in the native tongue, much more so on foreign translations. Peter has written about the "party line" and other versions depending on who you study with in his excellent Transmission and Inheritance blogs. I am left unmoved, as to its relevance in aiki. Again, going back to the physical manifestations, all I see is the deplorable state of affairs of those claiming an understanding, that has had any meaningful, physical results. As we have seen recently, it is usually nothing more than lip service as people float about and you can basically destroy them with little effort. As Kisshomaru noted- O sensei's legendary feats were intended not only to demonstrate or show off what he could do, but to create and opportunity for the introduction of a true martial art.
O sensei would have been appalled by the actions of what Meik Skoss termed "aiki-bunnies" he knew right well what power was and how to wield it to validate the art.

Dan

chillzATL
09-22-2011, 02:37 PM
The first one is pretty close:

"Manifest yang in your right hand, balance it with the yin of your left, and guide your partner."

The second one I'm not sure about - I was working from the originals...

Best,

Chris

Thanks,

You also mentioned the "put power into your fingertips". I recall a similar reference in Shioda's Aikido Shugyo and if I'm remembering correctly it was stated the same way, or maybe it was the hands. Not sure why that popped into my head, it was just interesting from a translation standpoint.

chillzATL
09-22-2011, 02:41 PM
Hello Jason
You would have to go find them.
Some are mentioned in the Kamae thread here.
Interestingly there are whole paragraphs left out (not translated at all) in the middle of an explanation. One of which is Ueshiba describing an almost book match description of spiraling to taiji.
Others where John Stevens skipped Ueshiba's repeated use of six directions as 60deg in hanmi.
The reasons are not nefarious...it is ignorance of an almost mundane and pedestrian terminology by and large unknown to these men who went on to became our teachers. It's sad really.
Hence the reason I used one of my own seminars as an example; where almost twenty Aikido people (teachers and students) were standing in a room with eight ICMA (teachers and students) and the ICMA guys looked at the AIkido teachers and basically said How could you people NOT KNOW this stuff?
I honestly don't know who was more surprised when I began reading Ueshiba quotes out loud.
All the best
Dan
P.S. Hey I got your P.M.'s...it's all good dude. And yes I am re-thinking it. You couldn't fault me after hearing about the threats in public seminars. People can be very weird. What about this winter when it cools off?

Thanks, I'll go dig around in there.

cool, yes yes, and yes. :)

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 02:42 PM
Thanks,

You also mentioned the "put power into your fingertips". I recall a similar reference in Shioda's Aikido Shugyo and if I'm remembering correctly it was stated the same way, or maybe it was the hands. Not sure why that popped into my head, it was just interesting from a translation standpoint.

I'd have to check Aikido Shugyo, but it makes sense. You also see similar admonitions in Chinese internal martial arts.

Best,

Chris

gregstec
09-22-2011, 02:52 PM
Hi Greg
It is not my statement.


PIcky, picky, picky - OK, let's just say it was a quote that formed part of your overall statement of point within that post - better? :)


Ueshiba:
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force

Taiji has: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Zhou and Kao.

It was typical for Asian models to align the physical with the cosmos. It was the way it was done. Not knowing how they merge and diverge and what they meant is...why most "teachers".....teach what we now see.. as the way of aiki.

And that said, from my understanding there is quite a divergence on the understanding of the Kotodama and translations even within Japan in the native tongue, much more so on foreign translations. Peter has written about the "party line" and other versions depending on who you study with in his excellent Transmission and Inheritance blogs. I am left unmoved, as to its relevance in aiki. Again, going back to the physical manifestations, all I see is the deplorable state of affairs of those claiming an understanding, that has had any meaningful, physical results. As we have seen recently, it is usually nothing more than lip service as people float about and you can basically destroy them with little effort. As Kisshomaru noted-
O sensei would have been appalled by the actions of what Meik Skoss termed "aiki-bunnies" he knew right well what power was and how to wield it to validate the art.

Dan

Interesting note is that Nakazono's son stated that even his father, who devoted most of his life to the study the Kototama, at the end felt that the Kototama did not have the answers for the meaning of life as he first thought let alone any relevance to the secrets of aikido, other than the fact that Ueshiba used it often as a reference to his beliefs - and in that context, you would of had to been inside Ueshiba's head to truly understand because as many of his students have said, they did not have a clue as to what he was spouting off about once he got into that Omoto/Kototama mode :)

Greg

chillzATL
09-22-2011, 02:57 PM
PIcky, picky, picky - OK, let's just say it was a quote that formed part of your overall statement of point within that post - better? :)

Interesting note is that Nakazono's son stated that even his father, who devoted most of his life to the study the Kototama, at the end felt that the Kototama did not have the answers for the meaning of life as he first thought let alone any relevance to the secrets of aikido, other than the fact that Ueshiba used it often as a reference to his beliefs - and in that context, you would of had to been inside Ueshiba's head to truly understand because as many of his students have said, they did not have a clue as to what he was spouting off about once he got into that Omoto/Kototama mode :)

Greg

Our instructor was given a book on Kotodama by Ueshiba. I've thought it would be cool, if I could read Japanese, to see if there was anything of relevance in it. If for nothing else than to try and piece together what was going on in his head.

Janet Rosen
09-22-2011, 03:10 PM
It is absolutely not metaphorical, that's becoming more and more evident - even in Ueshiba's own writings.

Best,

Chris
That was my point.

gregstec
09-22-2011, 03:26 PM
Greg. In the book by Nakazono I see no reference to that statement, however I may be wrong there. He mentions yin yang only once in the whole book.


Of course there is no direct reference to the quote/statement, If you are familiar with what the author is saying in the entire book, it would be obvious that the excerpt I paraphrased in my post from that book supports the point being made in the Ueshiba quote of Dan's statement.


He mentions the eight powers quite definitively which I do not see in the aikidofaq dobun. In fact he calls them the eight motive rhythms.


He does not use the word 'power' at all when talking about the eight motive/father rhythms. which as I stated before are the sounds of: T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S - so, tell me what is ther power of 'T' or maybe the power of 'N' and how does that relate to Aikido?

Those eight rhythms are nothing unless they are combined with one of the mother sounds, which when done will give you the 50 sounds of the Kototama.

Also, the Dobun DOES mention power, look at the end after clicking on that link I placed in my post - but that does not mean it is part of the kotomama - just someone's opinion that is not supported by other work on the kotomama, like Nagazono's work.


The eight motive rhythms are individually called powers and they number eight in total.


And where are they referenced as power in Inochi - the only place I see the word power being used is when he talks about 'WI' as the power of life.


Every one of them relates to Aikido as well as the universe itself.


OK, please provide detail and explain why with the proper references.


In my view these things were the the base of Ueshibas Aikido and thus his interpretation is the manifestation of Aikido itself.

His interpretation? or yours, or someone else's interpretation of his interpretation?


Transcending the realm of logic and as used in this society as explained in that book.


Just what exactly does that mean:freaky:

Greg

gregstec
09-22-2011, 03:29 PM
Our instructor was given a book on Kotodama by Ueshiba. I've thought it would be cool, if I could read Japanese, to see if there was anything of relevance in it. If for nothing else than to try and piece together what was going on in his head.

I went into the study of Kototama for the same thing - never did find the answers - and as I mentioned before, neither did Nakazono and he spent a lifetime a it :)

Greg

graham christian
09-22-2011, 06:05 PM
Of course there is no direct reference to the quote/statement, If you are familiar with what the author is saying in the entire book, it would be obvious that the excerpt I paraphrased in my post from that book supports the point being made in the Ueshiba quote of Dan's statement.

He does not use the word 'power' at all when talking about the eight motive/father rhythms. which as I stated before are the sounds of: T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S - so, tell me what is ther power of 'T' or maybe the power of 'N' and how does that relate to Aikido?

Those eight rhythms are nothing unless they are combined with one of the mother sounds, which when done will give you the 50 sounds of the Kototama.

Also, the Dobun DOES mention power, look at the end after clicking on that link I placed in my post - but that does not mean it is part of the kotomama - just someone's opinion that is not supported by other work on the kotomama, like Nagazono's work.

And where are they referenced as power in Inochi - the only place I see the word power being used is when he talks about 'WI' as the power of life.

OK, please provide detail and explain why with the proper references.

His interpretation? or yours, or someone else's interpretation of his interpretation?

Just what exactly does that mean:freaky:

Greg

Ah Greg. You are a pain. Your aim seems only to make wrong but for one last time I'll answer your requests.

O.K. There is mention of such and you can use it to support said statement. Good.

You say he doesn't use the word power in the eight motive rhythms? Then read it again as you are reading the wrong part of the book.

To cut it short for you from ti-ta-te-to-tu was called circling power by his teacher as one example. The whole set can be found on page 110 of inochi.

The eight powers as a result of these rhythms are written as follows: Expanding Power;
Inner scratching power;
Circling Power;
Opening Power;
Spiralling Power;
Gathering Power-absorption.
Flying Power:
Piercing Power.

Your final question which you tend to feel freaky? Well maybe to you it is freaky.

Well I look at the world and the way it's going or being and find that freaky so what's new.

In the book such a civilization as we have now is predicted, explained and named as a type of civilization based on certain rhtyms based on where we as humans are mostly operating from in our own awareness which my friend is quite a nutty place.

He describes it as a civilization following the amatu kanagi principle. A civilization based on u-a-o and lacking in e and i. Thus he says such things as[/QUOTE] 'Human activity symbolized in religion as the star god- god of violence-the devil. The god susano of the japanese shinto' and' 'Every improvement made is towards that end-making things worse, dirtier-with an upside down judgement. Morality is just there, worse than an animals morality-and that is progress'[QUOTE]

Thus he explains how greed and the want of power etc. runs this type of civilization etc. From page 40 to page 45.

Thus a civilization based with the other two (e-i) in operation would be the potential scene described by many including O'Sensei.

But first we must transcend the current way of thinking which we think is so right and normal. Or carry on 'improving' things towards destruction. Carry on thinking martial is all to do with war and subjugation and madness oblivious to wisdom.

Anyway. Enough said on that. Enjoy, and as O'Sensei said to Hikitsuchi [QUOTE] 'From now on Budo must become love and give joy and happiness. It must be the Budo of love' [QUOTE]

Regards.G.

Walker
09-22-2011, 06:55 PM
Hi Chris, belated thanks for your reply.

Dan, Chris, et al Isn't it great to see discussion (with the Japanese text present!) of weighty subjects here on AikiWeb?

Yay!

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 07:04 PM
Hi Chris, belated thanks for your reply.

Dan, Chris, et al � Isn't it great to see discussion (with the Japanese text present!) of weighty subjects here on AikiWeb?

Yay!

I'm loving life - now I just need to find time to sleep...

Best,

Chris

Walker
09-22-2011, 07:10 PM
So just to geek out a little bit, Chris, am I correct in understanding that 力を入れる (chikara wo ireru) can also mean to tense up?

If so, isn't that an interesting example that without information from another source, be it a teacher, classical knowledge, experience, etc, it might be difficult to understand exactly what is meant, underscoring Dan's point that book learning and practical knowledge are both required. And then there is the work...

Chris Li
09-22-2011, 07:22 PM
So just to geek out a little bit, Chris, am I correct in understanding that 力を入れる (chikara wo ireru) can also mean to tense up?

If so, isn't that an interesting example that without information from another source, be it a teacher, classical knowledge, experience, etc, it might be difficult to understand exactly what is meant, underscoring Dan's point that book learning and practical knowledge are both required. And then there is the work...

That's true, and a good example of the problem with most of the original translations - they were more or less translated "blind". Even most Japanese native speakers I talked to about the original texts had no idea what they meant.

Anyway, I'm more or less fully geeked out most of the time these days :)

Best,

Chris

gregstec
09-22-2011, 07:36 PM
Ah Greg. You are a pain. Your aim seems only to make wrong but for one last time I'll answer your requests.


Me a pain? - your whacky ramblings hurt my head :) And my motive is not to make wrong, but to clarify.


You say he doesn't use the word power in the eight motive rhythms? Then read it again as you are reading the wrong part of the book.

To cut it short for you from ti-ta-te-to-tu was called circling power by his teacher as one example. The whole set can be found on page 110 of inochi.

The eight powers as a result of these rhythms are written as follows: Expanding Power;
Inner scratching power;
Circling Power;
Opening Power;
Spiralling Power;
Gathering Power-absorption.
Flying Power:
Piercing Power.


No, Nakazono does not - but, Yamakoshi uses the word 'power' in his interpretation (page 110) as it relates to the manifestation of the eight motive rhythms along with the five mother sounds within the I-WI dimension, as I stated before, the word power is not used outside the discussion of that dimension and no where in the book is the term 'Eight Powers' used to describe anything. I can see where some may interpret the above to be a list of eight powers, but it does not represent the label of Eight Powers of the Kototama - and actually, when you look at if, he lists 40 sounds as part of that list and not just eight.

Further, as you look at pages 103, 106, 108, and 109 where Nakazono lists all the sounds of the kototama with what they represent in the three different orders, the only place the word 'power' is used is on page 108 for the sound 'WI' as 'life power'


Your final question which you tend to feel freaky? Well maybe to you it is freaky.

Well I look at the world and the way it's going or being and find that freaky so what's new.

In the book such a civilization as we have now is predicted, explained and named as a type of civilization based on certain rhtyms based on where we as humans are mostly operating from in our own awareness which my friend is quite a nutty place.

He describes it as a civilization following the amatu kanagi principle. A civilization based on u-a-o and lacking in e and i. Thus he says such things as 'Human activity symbolized in religion as the star god- god of violence-the devil. The god susano of the japanese shinto' 'Every improvement made is towards that end-making things worse, dirtier-with an upside down judgement. Morality is just there, worse than an animals morality-and that is progress'

Thus he explains how greed and the want of power etc. runs this type of civilization etc. From page 40 to page 45.

Thus a civilization based with the other two (e-i) in operation would be the potential scene described by many including O'Sensei.

But first we must transcend the current way of thinking which we think is so right and normal. Or carry on 'improving' things towards destruction. Carry on thinking martial is all to do with war and subjugation and madness oblivious to wisdom.

Anyway. Enough said on that. Enjoy, and as O'Sensei said to Hikitsuchi 'From now on Budo must become love and give joy and happiness. It must be the Budo of love'

As far as the restt of your post, well, like I said, my head hurts :)

Greg

DH
09-22-2011, 08:57 PM
Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?;)
Thanks
Dan

MM
09-22-2011, 08:59 PM
Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?;)
Thanks
Dan

Thank you! :D

gregstec
09-22-2011, 10:21 PM
Thank you! :D

Sorry to have rattled your cage....

gregstec
09-22-2011, 10:30 PM
Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?;)
Thanks
Dan

Sorry, the aspect of 'Eight Powers' of the Kototama was injected into the thread as meaning something to the power being discussed here - I challenged that opinion based on my understanding of the Kototama and subsequently have been defending my position accordingly - no more and no less than what you have done in the past defending your positions.

I am done with it.

Greg

MM
09-22-2011, 10:54 PM
Sorry to have rattled your cage....

You didn't rattle my cage, Greg. You'd have to try a lot harder than that. :D Besides, I know where you live. :freaky:

1. I really would rather have seen all the kotodama posts in their own thread. I think it deserved its own and this one kept to the discussion of Ueshiba and power.

2. Did you really have to go and entice certain people to post? :D If you ignore certain things, IMO, it makes a thread better.

Tim Ruijs
09-23-2011, 03:09 AM
Dan

I have tried to find more on Aiki in yo ho, but nothing much came up. But from waht I have found:
Do I understand correctly it is about being able to become the link that neutralizes yin yang between your attacker and the universe ? Balance out yin yang? (do not know how to describe it better)

The power would be more about ability than actual strength...

worrier
09-23-2011, 03:31 AM
The power would be more about ability than actual strength...

I think in general that's what 'real power' is, the ability to use what you have, regardless of who has more of it? I like the idea of being able to balance the yin and yang, though :)

Tim Ruijs
09-23-2011, 03:56 AM
Well, it is how I interpret the word Aikido, the way of harmony and energy.
And harmony in the more oriental meaning (off course), which would mean to be able to do the right thing at the right moment, rather than 'our' western meaning of love, flowers, birds and the bees....

So Aikido is the way to be able to provide/absorb the appropriate amount of energy at the right time, or something along those lines.

In that context the concepts of kino nagare, kimusubi, maai and shi sei make much more sense. Well, at least I think so.

gregstec
09-23-2011, 08:49 AM
You didn't rattle my cage, Greg. You'd have to try a lot harder than that. :D Besides, I know where you live. :freaky:


Yeah, but you cannot afford to drive here anymore, remember :D


1. I really would rather have seen all the kotodama posts in their own thread. I think it deserved its own and this one kept to the discussion of Ueshiba and power.


Come on, get real - thread drift is the mainstay here at Aikiweb :)


2. Did you really have to go and entice certain people to post? :D If you ignore certain things, IMO, it makes a thread better.

Just like someone else we know well ;) I enjoy a good fight every once in a while and just cannot back down or ignore certain things once challenged :)

Greg

graham christian
09-23-2011, 09:25 AM
If you're discussing power and O'Sensei all at once then how can you not mention the kotodama? Just read about his kiai for example let alone what I have already said.

However, I'll have that as my final word on this thread.

I'll spiral out of here.

Have fun.G.

gates
09-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?;)
Thanks
Dan

In my "My Past Way of Budo" by Nakazono in the chapter entitled "About Power" Nakazono discusses occurrences of unusual powers, Kiai causing unusual supernatural disturbances.

However I think Dan is perfectly correct, discussions of "power" from the perspective of kototama and other spiritual practices is why off the mark. The objective of such practices is not in trying to gain special powers, it is a search for an absolute truth, it has nothing to do with domination over others. The objective, in part, aiming to reduce the dichotomy of self and other, as such anything which may bolster of ego is rejected.

"Seeking to be superior is a mistake right from the start. If you get it, it will destroy you. It is twisted, unbalanced vibration for human life; not the pure, final power." (My Past Way of Budo, About Power, Nakazono)

Quite obviously O'Sensei knew this too. Dan is making an argument that you need to have proven abilities, talk the talk, walk the walk. Fair enough. Personally I don't have a problem with searching for power and abilities, within themselves.

However, just as Dan suggests that seeking the spiritual aspects within Aikido without having tangible physical abilities is lacking and boarder line useless, I would argue that having only the physical abilities without a proven ability to demonstrate a greater understanding of the metaphysical aspects is equally lacking and boarder line useless.

Keith

DH
09-23-2011, 04:56 PM
Dan
I have tried to find more on Aiki in yo ho, but nothing much came up. But from waht I have found:
Do I understand correctly it is about being able to become the link that neutralizes yin yang between your attacker and the universe ? Balance out yin yang? (do not know how to describe it better)
The power would be more about ability than actual strength...
You won't find anything.
Aiki is a method, resolving in yo within and without you.
It is more complex than the typical nonsense of doing things; like timing and power displays between you and an attacker.
Aiki begins in you, is perfected within you, otherwise everything you try to do with an opponent that creates kuzushi on contact will fail.
The type of strength produced is not what most people understand and or know how to develop, and for that matter know how to cope with. The dilapidated state of Sagawa-where he couldn't open a jar-is not a requirement. Most people I meet still have this weird notion that "soft" means evading or running away.
a) that is not soft, and it is unsupported
b) it does not exhibit yin yang
They just don't know how to produce power without flexing muscle, so they opt for that evading stuff and call that "Soft."
Interestingly, and in keeping with the tenor of the thread, the world outside of aikido, has tracked that type of understanding for hundreds of years and have discredited it as ...not being part of the "soft" arts. They also recognized that it was low level, that many can do it- as it requires no serious training or changing of the body. The changing of the body is the cornerstone of the soft arts and here we go again why O sensei said no one can do what I do, because you do not understand In yo ho.

Cheers
Dan

DH
09-23-2011, 05:41 PM
In my "My Past Way of Budo" by Nakazono in the chapter entitled "About Power" Nakazono discusses occurrences of unusual powers, Kiai causing unusual supernatural disturbances.
I believe that these things, along with Ueshiba's stories of golden rays, seeing bullet ki before the bulletts, bulbs flashing, and mysterious rumblings from the mountain every evening at Nine, are more Japanese myth making. In fact Kisshomaru tried to make corrections on these matters agreeing that they are exagerations of fact and other times made up out of whole cloth.
I dismiss these stories out of hand.

That said
However I think Dan is perfectly correct, discussions of "power" from the perspective of kototama and other spiritual practices is way off the mark. The objective of such practices is not in trying to gain special powers, it is a search for an absolute truth, it has nothing to do with domination over others. The objective, in part, aiming to reduce the dichotomy of self and other, as such anything which may bolster of ego is rejected.

"Seeking to be superior is a mistake right from the start. If you get it, it will destroy you. It is twisted, unbalanced vibration for human life; not the pure, final power." (My Past Way of Budo, About Power, Nakazono)
Cough..nice!
I think Ueshiba's understanding of Kotodama is most likely in keeping with his study of Aiki in yo ho where the duality of In yo dissolves all conflict within and without. This is what he spoke to most often. I also believe that most today have no clue whatsoever as to how these things connected in his life.

Isn't it interesting that the Omoto sect used him; for validation many times and pointed to him. Deguchi's comments are often about How and why Ueshiba should do this or that because of his...wait for it...power. and his recognition as a famous budoka. To deny that is to either not have read the histories, or to be partaking in more modern myth making on Ueshiba's behalf.
The real question is, within Omoto as a ...cough...source of power. Why was he different?
I have an answer for you.
It came from your founder
Aiki in yo ho
And that came from Daito ryu.

However, just as Dan suggests that seeking the spiritual aspects within Aikido without having tangible physical abilities is lacking and border-line useless,
I would argue that having only the physical abilities without a proven ability to demonstrate a greater understanding of the metaphysical aspects is equally lacking and border-line useless.
Keith
Had he not been trained with Daito ryu's Aiki in yo ho, Ueshiba would have been no more than any of the other people in the sect. He would not have been saved, he would have been arrested, and we would not be here talking about him.
He would have been a nobody who broke the law and got imprisoned.

Again I remind you it was he himself and not me...who recognized that this art would never be seen as a true budo without power.
Incidently, I am reasonably convinced that my ideas of what power is, are not and have not, been displayed, written about or seen much in aikido since Ueshiba.

In closing I have never said that seeking the spiritual aspects within Aikido without having tangible physical abilities is lacking and border-line useless. You said I said that. People will do what they want and pursue what they want and I think all of it is fine. They also are held accountable for their decisions. In this case they just need to be very cautious in calling what they do budo...They cannot do one thing and expect to borrow off of someone elses reputation and not be called on it by budo people from within and without of the art of Aikido. Some practices are just not budo.
Why?
Because according to the arts founder..
It will not be recognized as a true budo and will not taken seriously without power.
That's not my idea either, it's O sensei's.
Cheers
Dan

Tim Ruijs
09-23-2011, 06:14 PM
Thanks for taking time to explain a bit further.
food for thought; that's for sure. I do not expect to comprehend this after reading (about) it once or twice, or even ten times.

I am afraid I am still a bit stuck in the external form and trying to find out why sometimes it works and more often it does not.

gregstec
09-23-2011, 06:27 PM
You won't find anything.
Aiki is a method, resolving in yo within and without you.
It is more complex than the typical nonsense of doing things; like timing and power displays between you and an attacker.
Aiki begins in you, is perfected within you, otherwise everything you try to do with an opponent that creates kuzushi on contact will fail.
The type of strength produced is not what most people understand and or know how to develop, and for that matter know how to cope with. The dilapidated state of Sagawa-where he couldn't open a jar-is not a requirement. Most people I meet still have this weird notion that "soft" means evading or running away.
a) that is not soft, and it is unsupported
b) it does not exhibit yin yang
They just don't know how to produce power without flexing muscle, so they opt for that evading stuff and call that "Soft."
Interestingly, and in keeping with the tenor of the thread, the world outside of aikido, has tracked that type of understanding for hundreds of years and have discredited it as ...not being part of the "soft" arts. They also recognized that it was low level, that many can do it- as it requires no serious training or changing of the body. The changing of the body is the cornerstone of the soft arts and here we go again why O sensei said no one can do what I do, because you do not understand In yo ho.

Cheers
Dan

Just back from beer misogi in the hot tub - since I have not been able to do that for about six weeks since my foot injuries, it felt good! - anyway, I am enlightened now :)

IMO, there are two domains involved with an interaction - internal and external. I see soft as a joining of the external within the internal self and then self leads from there and there is no more external, it is all one within self, and of course, self has to be balanced, and that is where in-yo ho comes into play. Sorry, if I am coming across somewhat esoteric, but I did just say I have been enlightened in the hot tub :) In other words, Nage receives the attack and connects to Uke's center and then leads both by moving himself with NO muscle tension - he does not dance around Uke by sliding or shifting with the energy in an external manner.

Sounds pretty neat, let's see if we can come up a Japanese term to describe that - OK, I got it, since it is a joining inside (which is Nage) let's start with Ai, and since it is joining with external energy, let's call that Ki - so, how about Aiki? and if you want to make it into a way of life, how about Aikido :D

Greg

phitruong
09-23-2011, 06:56 PM
warning: thread rift

Aiki in yo ho

that just sounded obscene when you spoke that outloud, especially, when you were within earshot of your wife who then yelled at you "i am not yo ho! and you ain't gonna key anything in me! and guess where you will be sleeping tonight!" :eek:

Please resume schedule discussion of power and remember to stay away from yo ho! :D

DH
09-23-2011, 06:59 PM
warning: thread rift

Aiki in yo ho

that just sounded obscene when you spoke that outloud, especially, when you were within earshot of your wife who then yelled at you "i am not yo ho! and you ain't gonna key anything in me! and guess where you will be sleeping tonight!" :eek:

Please resume schedule discussion of power and remember to stay away from yo ho! :D
Old joke...heard many tmes at seminars.

DH
09-23-2011, 09:44 PM
The attempts to redefine aikido as ai..ki..do was a recent corruption.
Aiki..do is congruent with
Ken...do
Ju...do
Iai...do.
Nothing more.

gates
09-24-2011, 12:25 AM
Dan, my intention is not to put words into your mouth, so sorry if that is how it came across. I understand that you haven't said it directly, how I have distilled it, but I'd maintain that the sentiment that you give here on Aikiweb is consistent with this distillation. It seems to me even what you appear to be stating here is consistent with that line of thinking. That is: without power Aikido (presumably physical - tangible demonstrable power) cannot be recognized as a true budo. 'Some practices are just not budo' and 'won't be taken seriously as such'. I agree wholeheartedly, but I also go one step further and feel that the spiritual ideology inherent in Aikido that came from Oomoto, Kototama, and other sources are important if you want to study Aikido as a whole in the way it was intended to be. And that these aspects are just as critical to the whole as the physical components.

For example:
I take something from 'A' and something from 'B' mix them up producing 'C'. I now teach you 'C'. Do you have everything contained within the original forms of 'A' & 'B'? - Nope, at best you get 'C' which holds something of A&B but also loses something in the translation.

The original 'C' I have holds everything from 'A' and 'B' within it, but the 'C' you have does not. Now if I taught you 'A' and 'B' and let you mix them up yourself then maybe you would get something closer to my 'C'. (note Inoue)

But that didn't happen I taught you 'C' not 'AB', you can look and can see the difference. In this way it becomes natural that people wanting the real 'C' try to search back to the sources, and/or add a little 'D' and 'E' in an attempt to synthesize a closer to original 'C'. With each generation the mix changes a little and it slowly drifts away from the original. It is impossible to replicate the formula to perfectly make a copy of the original.

(replace A - daito ryu, B - spiritual enlightenment, C - Aikido)

Dan if you feel you have the special ingredient to give 'C' back its martial potency that is wonderful, provided it still does the other things it says on the tin.
Keith

Ernesto Lemke
09-24-2011, 01:14 AM
warning: thread rift

Aiki in yo ho

that just sounded obscene when you spoke that outloud, especially, when you were within earshot of your wife who then yelled at you "i am not yo ho! and you ain't gonna key anything in me! and guess where you will be sleeping tonight!" :eek:

Please resume schedule discussion of power and remember to stay away from yo ho! :D

Maybe old but new to me! ROFL Thanks Phi!

DH
09-24-2011, 08:50 AM
Dan, my intention is not to put words into your mouth, so sorry if that is how it came across. I understand that you haven't said it directly, how I have distilled it, but I'd maintain that the sentiment that you give here on Aikiweb is consistent with this distillation. It seems to me even what you appear to be stating here is consistent with that line of thinking. That is: without power Aikido (presumably physical - tangible demonstrable power) cannot be recognized as a true budo. 'Some practices are just not budo' and 'won't be taken seriously as such'. I agree wholeheartedly, but I also go one step further and feel that the spiritual ideology inherent in Aikido that came from Oomoto, Kototama, and other sources are important if you want to study Aikido as a whole in the way it was intended to be. And that these aspects are just as critical to the whole as the physical components.
Keith
I agree whole heartedly, Keith. Keep in mind I did not start the thread to discuss the whole of aikido. It is called Aikido: Discussions of power. There is no physical power in the kotodama for Budo.
They can't even agree who knows what kotodama is. I recall a recent exchange/review of one fellows work that spanned twenty years being dismissed as weak and poorly researched. I avoid discussions of kotodama as I believe it is about as productive as getting in the middle of a debate with Catholics, Baptists and Pentecostals about the Bible and the tenets of the faith. Included in that being the re-writes and overwriting of personal beliefs onto an otherwise established faith.
You can of course research the understanding of where and how Asians drew correlations between their cosmology and their physical understanding, and run headlong into researchers with all sorts of opinions and no physical power or ability to neutralize anything meaningful or control even a whisper of real force. So where is the purpose in arguing the depth of a Westerners understanding of an archaic Asian belief system when both Asian and Westerners are unable to demonstrate their "understanding" in any meaningful way in the realm of Budo, the point of the discussion.

You are correct that myself and others, can help with the physical aspects that will give Aikido-ka a much better understanding of in yo ho that their founder purseud. That...is my interest. I also think that will give them a better foundation for understanding the cosmology he referred to in his writings.
Example again
「合気とは、言霊の妙用であります。言霊の妙用は一霊四魂三元八力の分霊分身である。」
"Aiki is the mysterious action of "kotodama" ("word souls"). "Kotodama" is the understanding of the spirit and the body through Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki."
Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as an active force, a quiet force, a pulling force, a loosening force, a splitting force, a combining force, a melting force and a congealing force (you can see that each "in" force has a matching "yo" force).
And here we see a similar use to desribing force to the ICMA discussions of Jins. Interestingly Ueshiba also uses the equal to the word/idea of intent infused movement.

Cheers
Dan.

gates
09-24-2011, 11:22 AM
Interestingly Ueshiba also uses the equal to the word/idea of intent infused movement.

Cheers
Dan.

Dan,
Are to able to clarify/expand on this a little?

Kind Regards
Keith

ChrisHein
09-24-2011, 12:47 PM
They can't even agree who knows what kotodama is. I recall a recent exchange/review of one fellows work that spanned twenty years being dismissed as weak and poorly researched. I avoid discussions of kotodama as I believe it is about as productive as getting in the middle of a debate with Catholics, Baptists and Pentecostals about the Bible and the tenets of the faith.

Replace Kotodama with IP/IT/IS.

DH
09-25-2011, 05:37 AM
Dan,
Are to able to clarify/expand on this a little?

Kind Regards
Keith
Here? No, Not really. It's difficult enough to teach intent in person. Suffice to say it is an old and established way to train the mind/body to connect and move and in so doing your movement, and the effect it has on others, is more profound.
And contrary to Chris Hein's dig, it's pretty much universally embraced by everyone who is truly doing internals. :rolleyes:
Cheers
Dan

gates
09-25-2011, 09:37 AM
No worries Dan,
The sentence just didn't quite make sense to me.
Keith