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Relaxed Aikidoka
09-11-2011, 09:30 AM
I've looked on aikiweb and have seen people that have come against aikidoka's that just WANT to have a problem with you.
I am having this problem. An aikidoka is being hostile to me.
(not openly)

He criticises me but refuses to aid me. He won't pair up with me because I was a bad uke with him and i'm trying to overcome that. I constantly try to go against his hatred and attempt to make him see reason, to get him to partner up with me and forget this hatred. :hypno:

It HONESTLY makes me sad he won't just STOP this nonsense!

I quote this from him- "I am there to help others learn but primarily im there to further my own knowledge."

What do you all think? What can I do? I want to restore our friendship.

dps
09-11-2011, 10:07 AM
Let it go.

Ignore his behavior

Some people are not worth the time, eneergy and effort to get along with.

You are not there to make friends.

"I am there to help others learn but primarily im there to further my own knowledge." should also be why you are there.

dps

Relaxed Aikidoka
09-11-2011, 10:49 AM
"You are not there to make friends."

I thank you for your input but I am not there to have enemies either. Everyone in the dojo should work together. It's easy for you to say "ignore him" isn't it? Even if I did ignore him, I feel empty within. I need to make peace with him. I repeat, how do I do it?

Mary Eastland
09-11-2011, 10:58 AM
Hi Adam:
I have had a similar experience. I have looked within to see my part. I have talked to someone about my part and sought my teacher's counsel. I have changed a bit. I have let go of the results. The situation has changed a bit.
I am still a little uncomfortbale but I do feel better.

Hellis
09-11-2011, 11:06 AM
Adam

I doubt you will resolve your differences in the dojo.
I am sure you are like most club members and have a beer at the end of the night ? Ask the guy to join you in a quiet pint, ask him outright what problems he has with you, tell him your problems and hopefully you can shake hands. If he is unchanged - ask him for the money for the beer.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Janet Rosen
09-11-2011, 11:26 AM
Henry's approach is a good one. If the fellow isn't interested, then consider reframing your original statement of the issues>
He has a problem with you as you were/something you did.
You cannot control how people feel.
All you can control are your own actions and feelings.
1. You can make yourself a better uke, the best uke you can be based on your training and attitude each day.
2. You can detach yourself from your desire or need for his friendship or his approval and focus on your own training.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-11-2011, 11:32 AM
Keep him as enemy.

Having enemies is what make one to appreciate friends.

Rob Watson
09-11-2011, 11:59 AM
Punch him in the face and mention "a hole in his knowledge". You just are trying to help after all.

One of the George Ledyard type punches that makes it clear to all that one has been punched in the face without actually having to punch them in the face kind of punches. Regular punches work too but tend to get blood everywhere. If they don't appreciate either kind of punch then they really are not there to improve their knowledge and so have little to add to yours.

Of course, if they won't train with you then you will have to resort to jumping out of bushes and scare the crap out of them and shout 'another hole' . When you come to the realization that you have become a stalker you might want to tone it down a bit. Then you can just call him 'hole' in a fraternal kind of way as a little aiki nickname. Just trying to help after all.

SteliosPapadakis
09-11-2011, 12:15 PM
In such topics, one should have been able to hear both parties. What you consider aggressive or offensive behaviour can be seen similar-wise from the other party. I cannot suggest an objective point of view without hearing the other bloke.
No matter and supposing you are 100% right:
Βe straight with him after class, in a calm and relaxed way state your points. No matter what, you will have been made clear on your intentions and feelings. WHich is always a good thing.
See how it goes for a lesson or two.
Ifr there is no improvement or change in approach, talk to your sensei or dojo-cho. See if they can help but let them hear both sides.
Be well

PS. i have had a similar case in our dojo but i was found on the other shore of the story. A new student, coming from another dojo/system/approach though he knew all about Aikido. Me being a 1st Kyu, him a 6th. He would always stop in the middle of the exercise to instruct me, point out my mistakes etc. I always tried to show and (why not) teach him a couple of things, always with my Sensei observing and nodding in approval of my approach. The guy would not stop and even critisise the way the Sensei corrected his mistakes. It was all hopeless...Finally he decided (in everybody's favour) to try another dojo. From friends there we learnt he kept up to his habbit, critisizing and correcting all students and said that we were bullying him ( ! ), arrogant, aggresive and the sort...
Go figure...:confused:

Relaxed Aikidoka
09-11-2011, 12:23 PM
I thank you all for your answers so far, what I have done myself is confront him during lesson and ask him to be my partner. He declined, I repeated, he declined and moved with someone else. So the option of talking to him my self has gone. Next stage is to resort to doing what an adult does with two children. In this case, me and my enemy are the children. Sensei will be the adult. Is this a sound plan?

EDIT: He's also sent messages online which means he cannot bear a face to face encounter. Where as I am willing to do that, he has backed out.

Shadowfax
09-11-2011, 12:43 PM
Just because a person is not your friend does not mean that they must therefore be counted as an enemy.

If he does not want to train with you then let it be. It's his problem. People who try to hard to force someone to like them tend to in actuality push them in the opposite direction. If you just leave him alone you might find that things change over time.

graham christian
09-11-2011, 04:22 PM
I thank you all for your answers so far, what I have done myself is confront him during lesson and ask him to be my partner. He declined, I repeated, he declined and moved with someone else. So the option of talking to him my self has gone. Next stage is to resort to doing what an adult does with two children. In this case, me and my enemy are the children. Sensei will be the adult. Is this a sound plan?

EDIT: He's also sent messages online which means he cannot bear a face to face encounter. Where as I am willing to do that, he has backed out.

If he shuns you and won't train with you then it looks like you are therefore a problem to him. Seeing him as a problem is probably your problem.

Try seeing him as something else other than a problem.

Regards G.

sakumeikan
09-11-2011, 04:28 PM
I thank you all for your answers so far, what I have done myself is confront him during lesson and ask him to be my partner. He declined, I repeated, he declined and moved with someone else. So the option of talking to him my self has gone. Next stage is to resort to doing what an adult does with two children. In this case, me and my enemy are the children. Sensei will be the adult. Is this a sound plan?

EDIT: He's also sent messages online which means he cannot bear a face to face encounter. Where as I am willing to do that, he has backed out.
Dear Adam,
Why bother with the guy?It seems to me you cannot see clearly that the guy does not want anything to do with you.You need to face facts, stop being dumb.Your sensei has better things to do than waste time with your problem.I take it you are out of short pants?
Cheers, joe

sakumeikan
09-11-2011, 04:33 PM
If he shuns you and won't train with you then it looks like you are therefore a problem to him. Seeing him as a problem is probably your problem.

Try seeing him as something else other than a problem.

Regards G.

Dear Graham,
See the guy as something else???What do you suggest , a barman at the local, the taxi driver, or what???Your too much of counsellor or a shrink. Keep it simple.Unless the two guys gel , they should avoid each other .Simples [Meerkat expression].
Cheers, Joe.

SeiserL
09-11-2011, 04:51 PM
Enter and blend with his unwillingness to train with you by letting it go and train with others.

Happens all the time.

No partnering, no problem. Right?

Basia Halliop
09-11-2011, 05:14 PM
If he does not want to train with you then let it be. It's his problem. People who try to hard to force someone to like them tend to in actuality push them in the opposite direction. If you just leave him alone you might find that things change over time.

Yes, leave the guy alone. Be pleasant when you do interact with him, but don't push him to be 'friends'.

For me, I really think if I repeatedly and honestly asked someone to leave me alone and they didn't, I'd find it very very UN-friendly of them to not respect my request. It would NOT make me like them, it would make me feel like they were being really rude and disrespectful to me and didn't care about how I felt or what I wanted, only what THEY wanted themselves..

If you let him be, be neighbourly to him but mostly leave him alone, and maybe try to truly change whatever behaviour it was that made him dislike you in the first place (depending what it was), maybe in time things will change. Or maybe not, but in any case you'll both have a better time.

crbateman
09-11-2011, 05:44 PM
Just do the best that you can in your own right. It takes work on the part of both to forge a friendship, or even just to cooperate, and if he truly does not want it, it won't happen just from your efforts alone. So live with it and focus on something else. If he's being that tough on you, your instructor will probably notice. Don't confront; don't be an irritant; just be nice, and do the best you can.

graham christian
09-11-2011, 05:51 PM
Dear Graham,
See the guy as something else???What do you suggest , a barman at the local, the taxi driver, or what???Your too much of counsellor or a shrink. Keep it simple.Unless the two guys gel , they should avoid each other .Simples [Meerkat expression].
Cheers, Joe.

See him as a challenge. See him as someone to train with at another time. Simples.

Gorgeous George
09-11-2011, 06:37 PM
Dear Graham,
See the guy as something else???What do you suggest , a barman at the local, the taxi driver, or what???Your too much of counsellor or a shrink. Keep it simple.Unless the two guys gel , they should avoid each other .Simples [Meerkat expression].
Cheers, Joe.

Haha.

I agree with Joe: just ignore him.

I once went to a dojo where there was a beginner, who I saw grade for his 5th kyu, who actually repeatedly told me my ukemi was wrong when I trained with him (both before and after that grading); he also liked to flounce about before classes, 'throwing' his good friend (another beginner) with an air of effortless excellence.
Unbearable.
So I just ignored him whenever we had to pair up to train - pretended not to see him; looked around him; looked the other way for a partner, etc.

That's one advantage I think BJJ has: you have to back up your claims - none of this 'You're not doing it right.' shit; there's no pretence.

Walter Martindale
09-11-2011, 07:10 PM
Yeah, Doesn't want to practice with you? Don't practice with him. Practice with everyone else in the dojo, keep learning with everyone else. Eventually he may or may not decide he wants to practice with you. Whatever the case, look after yourself...

Control what you can, control how you respond to things you can't control, and learn to recognize the difference....
W

Mario Tobias
09-11-2011, 11:45 PM
You can't please everybody. Try and you will fail. If you are not friends, at least you are not enemies.

Benjamin Mehner
09-11-2011, 11:51 PM
You can't please everybody. Try and you will fail. If you are not friends, at least you are not enemies.

"...it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself..."

I always think of this piece of lyrical wisdom when people make such statements. My father would call it hedonism, a Zen master (not calling myself one, I'm not) might call it truth.

Tim Ruijs
09-12-2011, 01:19 AM
The dojo should be a safe place to practise. That is a responsibility of everyone. When someone does not want to practise with you, you can try to talk to him/her about it. When that fails explain the situation to your teacher. He may then decide to talk to the both of you, or the individual alone.
The teacher should not allow for such a situation that brings tension/stress onto the tatami. Off course it all depends on the reason why he does not want to practise with you. Find that out...somehow...
Good luck;)

dps
09-12-2011, 05:55 AM
From the book; "Zen In The Martial Arts" by Joe Hyams,
page 39 to 40.

Following are snipets of a larger converstion Mr. Silliphant had with Bruce Lee and Joe Hyams.

"It is the most precious commodity we have.....I always view my time as divided into infinite moments or transactions or contracts. Anyone who steals my time is stealing my life because they are taking my existence from me.....As I get older I realize that time is the only thing I have left......I have limited my friends to those with whom time passes happily......The choice of how I spend my time is mine. and it is not dictated by social convention."

You are choosing to waste your time and the money you are paying to practice Aikido by letting this person steal your time.

djps

Basia Halliop
09-12-2011, 06:21 AM
[quote]The dojo should be a safe place to practise. That is a responsibility of everyone. When someone does not want to practise with you, you can try to talk to him/her about it. When that fails explain the situation to your teacher. He may then decide to talk to the both of you, or the individual alone.
The teacher should not allow for such a situation that brings tension/stress onto the tatami. Off course it all depends on the reason why he does not want to practise with you. Find that out...somehow...
Good luck{/quote]

Hopefully the teacher will tell him to leave the guy alone. No one has the *right* to force another person to practice with them if they choose not to (and creating an environment where people can be forced to practice against their will is certainly not the recipe for 'safe practice'). The biggest 'situation that brings tension/stress onto the tatami' that I see here from what I can read is the continual harassment of someone who just wants to be left peacefully alone.

Tim Ruijs
09-12-2011, 07:40 AM
Completely agree with you there. :D

Relaxed Aikidoka
09-12-2011, 08:54 AM
I believe you are correct when you say I should stop harassing him.
I'll follow your advice. Thank you all sincerely for this, I really appreciate it. Anyway if you want to leave additional advice about this matter i'm all ears...or eyes in this case! :D

Thanks again :)

Mary Eastland
09-12-2011, 09:27 AM
My views on AikiWeb are different than a lot of other people's views.. Some people make fun of my views. Some people ignore them and some people make fun of me. Some poeple may like them.

For me the practice is to keep posting because I have things to say. If someone likes or doesn't like what I say or puts me on ignore or makes comments good or bad is irrelevant. I have no control over others. However, my viewpoint might make a difference to someone else just as your viewpoints, whether I like them or not, may help me learn something about myself and others.

How is this Aikidoka helping you learn about yourself?

sakumeikan
09-12-2011, 10:21 AM
My views on AikiWeb are different than a lot of other people's views.. Some people make fun of my views. Some people ignore them and some people make fun of me. Some poeple may like them.

For me the practice is to keep posting because I have things to say. If someone likes or doesn't like what I say or puts me on ignore or makes comments good or bad is irrelevant. I have no control over others. However, my viewpoint might make a difference to someone else just as your viewpoints, whether I like them or not, may help me learn something about myself and others.

How is this Aikidoka helping you learn about yourself?
Dear Mary,
Asking this question is almost an exercise in contemplating ones navel.I think its a waste of ones time .However much you engage in silent thought ,mentally debating this issue,at the end of the day the result is the same-the two guys involved are not compatible .Surely this is the main issue?The whys and wherefores of how the two guys do not gel
is irrelevant.In a nutshell ,you cannot no matter how you try,you
cannot get on with everyone.Use time in a more positive way , rather than engage in self analysis.Cheers, Joe.

Mary Eastland
09-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Thanks for the advice, Joe. I see that we see things differently.

My practice involves contemplation. I am interested in why I see things the way I do.

I might have caused harm where I meant none. Maybe I am too sensitive and I need to change. When I can see myself as I am then I can do something about it.

And there is the time when nothing more can be done and I must accept that some people just don't like me and that is ok.
Best,
Mary

Hellis
09-12-2011, 03:39 PM
Dear Mary,
Asking this question is almost an exercise in contemplating ones navel.Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe

This is like a thread on a sowing circle forum rather than a martial arts forum..

Regards

Henry
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

akiy
09-12-2011, 03:50 PM
Hi folks,

Please let's keep judgments regarding the topic of other people's discussions out of the posts here. If you have differing thoughts about a topic, please address the topic itself rather than casting judgments about the topic's worthiness or appropriateness.

All topics here are welcome -- outside of those which go against the Forum Rules, of course.

Thank you,

-- Jun

sakumeikan
09-13-2011, 01:14 AM
Thanks for the advice, Joe. I see that we see things differently.

My practice involves contemplation. I am interested in why I see things the way I do.

I might have caused harm where I meant none. Maybe I am too sensitive and I need to change. When I can see myself as I am then I can do something about it.

And there is the time when nothing more can be done and I must accept that some people just don't like me and that is ok.
Best,
Mary
Dear Mary,
I cannot speak for everyone but I can assure you I think your Ok.Nothing wrong with having different viewpoints on issues.Makes for interesting reading. All the best, Joe.

Mary Eastland
09-13-2011, 09:32 AM
Thanks, Joe. I feel the same way. My post was about my process not about anyone's behavior. Thanks for your kind words.
Mary

terry johnson
10-29-2011, 08:22 PM
I've looked on aikiweb and have seen people that have come against aikidoka's that just WANT to have a problem with you.
I am having this problem. An aikidoka is being hostile to me.
(not openly)

He criticises me but refuses to aid me. He won't pair up with me because I was a bad uke with him and i'm trying to overcome that. I constantly try to go against his hatred and attempt to make him see reason, to get him to partner up with me and forget this hatred. :hypno:

It HONESTLY makes me sad he won't just STOP this nonsense!

I quote this from him- "I am there to help others learn but primarily im there to further my own knowledge."

What do you all think? What can I do? I want to restore our friendship.

Talk with your Sensei and he will tell you, probably, it's a lesson you must learn to overcome. In other words, look at yourself and ask, maybe I am at fault.

Lyle Laizure
10-30-2011, 07:24 AM
From what I gather he has never given you a specific reason for not wanting to practice with you. There is too much unknown here. I rarely have the problem of someone not wanting to practice with me because everyone likes throwing a fat guy.

If this is causing dicourse in the dojo your sensei should definately be made aware of it and will act on it as he sees fit.

Hanna B
10-30-2011, 10:09 AM
The only way to make this individual want to train with you, is to leave him alone for as long as he needs - and then leave it up to him.

Mario Tobias
10-31-2011, 12:31 AM
Don't force someone to train with you if you feel he doesn't like to train with you. The uke nage relationship needs some level of trust with the partner and you as uke do not want to hand over your body to someone you cannot fully trust. Serious injuries are borne this way. Trust and dont trust your partner at the same time, even if you are the closest of friends. While doing aikido, you are not enemies but you are not friends either at that very moment.

Tim Ruijs
10-31-2011, 02:36 AM
Don't force someone to train with you if you feel he doesn't like to train with you. The uke nage relationship needs some level of trust with the partner and you as uke do not want to hand over your body to someone you cannot fully trust. Serious injuries are borne this way. Trust and dont trust your partner at the same time, even if you are the closest of friends. While doing aikido, you are not enemies but you are not friends either at that very moment.

Well put. The relation friend or foe does not exist 'at that moment'.

aikidoka81
03-15-2012, 12:54 AM
I've looked on aikiweb and have seen people that have come against aikidoka's that just WANT to have a problem with you.
I am having this problem. An aikidoka is being hostile to me.
(not openly)

He criticises me but refuses to aid me. He won't pair up with me because I was a bad uke with him and i'm trying to overcome that. I constantly try to go against his hatred and attempt to make him see reason, to get him to partner up with me and forget this hatred. :hypno:

It HONESTLY makes me sad he won't just STOP this nonsense!

I quote this from him- "I am there to help others learn but primarily im there to further my own knowledge."

What do you all think? What can I do? I want to restore our friendship.

You shouldn't bother with such people. He's just being selfish and unhelpful.
You don't need friends like him.

aikidoka81
03-15-2012, 01:00 AM
I've looked on aikiweb and have seen people that have come against aikidoka's that just WANT to have a problem with you.
I am having this problem. An aikidoka is being hostile to me.
(not openly)

He criticises me but refuses to aid me. He won't pair up with me because I was a bad uke with him and i'm trying to overcome that. I constantly try to go against his hatred and attempt to make him see reason, to get him to partner up with me and forget this hatred. :hypno:

It HONESTLY makes me sad he won't just STOP this nonsense!

I quote this from him- "I am there to help others learn but primarily im there to further my own knowledge."

What do you all think? What can I do? I want to restore our friendship.

You shouldn't bother with such people. He's just being selfish and unhelpful.
You don't need friends like him.

lars beyer
03-16-2012, 04:51 AM
"You are not there to make friends."

I thank you for your input but I am not there to have enemies either. Everyone in the dojo should work together. It's easy for you to say "ignore him" isn't it? Even if I did ignore him, I feel empty within. I need to make peace with him. I repeat, how do I do it?

Dear adam
I think the problem is that you demand something he canīt or wonīt give you.. You say you need to make peace, but like everything else itīs not something you can force on people, maybe you should chill out and go with the flow.
So like itīs allready been said many times, leave it alone.

(I know this thread is not completely new and you have probably learned from reading here, so in a way itīs becoming rhetorical, but still itīs an interresting subject.)

Cheers
Lars

lbb
03-16-2012, 08:45 AM
You shouldn't bother with such people. He's just being selfish and unhelpful.
You don't need friends like him.

You know this thread is a year old, right?

GB-UK
03-17-2012, 11:43 AM
You know this thread is a year old, right?

I didn't realise 5 months is equal to a year, maybe years are shorter in the US :p

sakumeikan
03-17-2012, 06:03 PM
I've looked on aikiweb and have seen people that have come against aikidoka's that just WANT to have a problem with you.
I am having this problem. An aikidoka is being hostile to me.
(not openly)

He criticises me but refuses to aid me. He won't pair up with me because I was a bad uke with him and i'm trying to overcome that. I constantly try to go against his hatred and attempt to make him see reason, to get him to partner up with me and forget this hatred. :hypno:

It HONESTLY makes me sad he won't just STOP this nonsense!

I quote this from him- "I am there to help others learn but primarily im there to further my own knowledge."

What do you all think? What can I do? I want to restore our friendship.
Dear Adam,
With friends like this guy who need enemies? Kick him into touch. You need him like you need a hole in the head. Use commonsense , get rid of him.Why do you bother ?Are you a closet masochist? Cheers Joe.

lbb
03-19-2012, 07:06 AM
I didn't realise 5 months is equal to a year, maybe years are shorter in the US :p

Meh. Point stands. Old thread, why revive it?