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Russ Q
09-06-2011, 08:00 PM
Curious as to what the IP/Aiki folks think of this video. Personally I'm quite impressed, especially with Mifune's sumio toshi at 1:09 of the first clip....is this a good demonstration of IT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ye5DC7sVTw&feature=related

Truly,

Russ

Janet Rosen
09-06-2011, 10:19 PM
Funny timing, Russ: my new class at the dojo follows a judo class (which seems to be more budo type, not sports type) and so just a few hours ago I was chatting w/ a fellow aikido student who has been attending the judo class as well - the subject of Mifune came up as we are both very familiar w/ the first of the two clips you link to - and my comment (in the context of thinking about the aiki seminar) was that his structure is amazing to me: with no feet on the ground he appears to remain in perfect balance with internal structure intact.

Lorel Latorilla
09-06-2011, 10:35 PM
Definitely has it. You can't get kuzushi on him, because Mifune is downweighting and the other guy can't get under. Mifune is essentially relaxing and allowing the weight of his structure to go down the ground, so the guy who is trying to lift him cant because 1) he's fighting against the force of gravity 2) it's not like Mifune is dead weight, Mifune is a living thing who is manipulating the forces of gravity to keep in his structure in tact (and thus maintain a dynamic downweight) and to remain umthrowable.


Notice also when he threw (and throws the guy) the kuzushi is very subtle. You don't see it. No excessive pushing and pulling. At that time you pointed out, there is a millisecond there where you see him plant his feet to to set up, "get under". He just gets low to create momentum for his throw. The foreign player can't sense his balance being taken at all.

Russ Q
09-07-2011, 08:23 AM
Thanks for the responses! I saw this just the other day and like it a lot.

Cheers,

R

Lorel Latorilla
09-07-2011, 08:58 AM
The sequence is he gets under lower than his opponent (think about why a moving train can take your balance, its "under" you) plants his feet and at that moment gets kuzushi, and then throws. He doesn't just "throw" you cause that would mean he's using brute force, and his body frame won't allow him to use brute force. Causing unbalance in the other person will allow the other guy to be light, and thus easy to throw.

But Mifune has developed it to such a subtle degree that the transition from kuzushi to throw is seamless that it almost looks like he's just throwing people at will without any unbalancing tricks.

chillzATL
09-07-2011, 09:24 AM
The sequence is he gets under lower than his opponent (think about why a moving train can take your balance, its "under" you) plants his feet and at that moment gets kuzushi, and then throws. He doesn't just "throw" you cause that would mean he's using brute force, and his body frame won't allow him to use brute force. Causing unbalance in the other person will allow the other guy to be light, and thus easy to throw.

But Mifune has developed it to such a subtle degree that the transition from kuzushi to throw is seamless that it almost looks like he's just throwing people at will without any unbalancing tricks.

I like to think of it like imagining you ran up to a table and pushed down onto it with all your strength/weight. Naturally the table, unless it were very cheaply made, wouldn't budge and you would be pushing yourself up/back, but at that moment you contacted it, the table pushed back (or pulled) ever so slightly.

Also, in your first reply you were talking about him being unthrowable, and I agree, but I wonder how much of that unthrowability is also him keeping his center away from nage? I've found that to be a very interesting thing to play with, though I can't do it against any pressure without some external shifting. I believe Ark does some demos along those lines where he'll squat and have two people push down on him from each side. They're connecting to him and pushing him down, but then he subtly shifts his center to break their connection and is able to just stand up regardless of the weight/power they're putting into him. I would imagine they're some of that going on with Mifune as well.

Russ Q
09-07-2011, 09:32 AM
At the Aiki Principles seminar Threadgill sensei was speaking about not letting your partner feel your center (while touching theirs). This is the practice....moving, kuzushi and throw all while keeping ones tanden entirely relaxed......deep study.

R

Lorel Latorilla
09-07-2011, 09:57 AM
I like to think of it like imagining you ran up to a table and pushed down onto it with all your strength/weight. Naturally the table, unless it were very cheaply made, wouldn't budge and you would be pushing yourself up/back, but at that moment you contacted it, the table pushed back (or pulled) ever so slightly.

Also, in your first reply you were talking about him being unthrowable, and I agree, but I wonder how much of that unthrowability is also him keeping his center away from nage? I've found that to be a very interesting thing to play with, though I can't do it against any pressure without some external shifting. I believe Ark does some demos along those lines where he'll squat and have two people push down on him from each side. They're connecting to him and pushing him down, but then he subtly shifts his center to break their connection and is able to just stand up regardless of the weight/power they're putting into him. I would imagine they're some of that going on with Mifune as well.

Hi Jason,

Yeah, I think that's naturally the effect. A guy pushing onto a guy who is "lower" than the other guy, will naturally prop himself up, because the guy who's low is directing his "energy" or "center" to the ground. In that case, yeah, the table image is suitable. I got some "a ha" moments from watching some Kondo videos of him teaching a seminar and while people might suggest other Daito Ryu guys for good examples of "aiki", his demonstrations of aiki, while lacking in subtlety, gave me ideas as to why it's easy for small guys to throw bigger guys. Kondo would do aiki using aiki-age, and put his attacker on his toes, upon which Kondo would throw him. If you are on your toes, you are basically powerless, and you can be easily thrown. But I figured, you don't literally need to be on your toes, you just need to be unbalanced for you to be throwable.

That's what I mean by "dynamic downweight". I didn't really explain. Why is that if a strong guy lifts a 150 pound weight and curls like its nothing, but can't throw a 100 pound dude (like Mifune)? The weight has a recognizable "center". It won't move. If you are strong enough, and can "sense" where the gravitational pull is on the weight, you can move it. But with a 100 pound guy, he can hide his "center" while maintaining a downweight anywhere on his body. So the guy will not be able to sense where the pull is on the 100 pounder, while the 100 pounder is mentally directing gravitional force affecting his body and consequently aligning his body in such a way that it desires to stay clamped to the ground.

I don't know if that makes sense. Jeez this is hard to explain.

chillzATL
09-07-2011, 10:34 AM
Hi Jason,

Yeah, I think that's naturally the effect. A guy pushing onto a guy who is "lower" than the other guy, will naturally prop himself up, because the guy who's low is directing his "energy" or "center" to the ground. In that case, yeah, the table image is suitable. I got some "a ha" moments from watching some Kondo videos of him teaching a seminar and while people might suggest other Daito Ryu guys for good examples of "aiki", his demonstrations of aiki, while lacking in subtlety, gave me ideas as to why it's easy for small guys to throw bigger guys. Kondo would do aiki using aiki-age, and put his attacker on his toes, upon which Kondo would throw him. If you are on your toes, you are basically powerless, and you can be easily thrown. But I figured, you don't literally need to be on your toes, you just need to be unbalanced for you to be throwable.

Re: on your toes - Yah i think the up on the toes thing is more of an exagerated response. In reality, depending on the skill level of both people, you're probably going to be looking at it more as getting tension into various parts of their body to get their center up subtly (shoulder/chest, lower back, etc) and then capitalizing on it from there. I think that what you look for in the other person changes depending on their skill level. Someone with some body skill isn't going to attach their center to their power output in the same way a strong but otherwise disconnected person would. Ikeda actually has some good ways of talking about this at his seminars. He calls it making a line and breaking the line and goes to great lengths to show the early, more exagerated version (from both uke and nage sides) to the more subtle and desired end product.

That's what I mean by "dynamic downweight". I didn't really explain. Why is that if a strong guy lifts a 150 pound weight and curls like its nothing, but can't throw a 100 pound dude (like Mifune)? The weight has a recognizable "center". It won't move. If you are strong enough, and can "sense" where the gravitational pull is on the weight, you can move it. But with a 100 pound guy, he can hide his "center" while maintaining a downweight anywhere on his body. So the guy will not be able to sense where the pull is on the 100 pounder, while the 100 pounder is mentally directing gravitional force affecting his body and consequently aligning his body in such a way that it desires to stay clamped to the ground.

I don't know if that makes sense. Jeez this is hard to explain.

It makes sense and yes, it is hard to explain without having felt it first. The first time I really felt it was from Toby Threadgill and the whole concept of it has really only started coming together for me over the last few months or so. It's definitely something that needs to be felt though.

Keith Larman
09-07-2011, 10:38 AM
The weight has a recognizable "center". It won't move. If you are strong enough, and can "sense" where the gravitational pull is on the weight, you can move it. But with a 100 pound guy, he can hide his "center" while maintaining a downweight anywhere on his body. So the guy will not be able to sense where the pull is on the 100 pounder, while the 100 pounder is mentally directing gravitional force affecting his body and consequently aligning his body in such a way that it desires to stay clamped to the ground.

I don't know if that makes sense. Jeez this is hard to explain.

I remember someone years ago telling me to visualize being a loose sack of sand but with the ability to shift the sand at will. So to be in control of it in a relaxed fashion. So you decide to shift over here, over there, etc. as the person grabbing is trying their hardest to find a "thing" to lift. So no matter where they start to lift you're "pouring" over here, over there, etc. leaving them with nothing solid. Not giving them that center you talk about.

Or to put it another way, I think of using aiki to feel their center while not allowing them to feel mine. Or to keep mine controlled and invisible to them. So I can affect them but they can't affect me. Kuzushi on contact via aiki.

Yeah, while really hard to explain it is so much harder to do (for me at least). Still learnin'...

Keith Larman
09-07-2011, 10:42 AM
And yes, with Toby he'll sometimes do this thing where he'll say "I have you, I don't have you, I have you again..." From the outside you don't really see much of a change. But when you're on the receiving end if you're reasonably aware of how they guys can probe to your center you can feel exactly what he's saying. Yes, he does then it goes away. Then it comes back. Subtle shifts. The problem I find with Toby (and others good at this stuff) is that I can't ride that feeling back in to his center. With most "normal" folk when they have me I feel them as well. Then the issue becomes one of strength, positional advantage, etc. So if they do the technique correctly and have me compromised then my ability to ride back in to them doesn't help me as much as it could. But with guys like Mifune what you see is the bigger guy, even with apparent positional advantage, cannot seem to latch on to him. And it takes very little for Mifune to get kuzushi all while not compromising himself. Cool stuff.

Russ Q
09-07-2011, 01:42 PM
That's what I mean by "dynamic downweight". I didn't really explain. Why is that if a strong guy lifts a 150 pound weight and curls like its nothing, but can't throw a 100 pound dude (like Mifune)? The weight has a recognizable "center". It won't move. If you are strong enough, and can "sense" where the gravitational pull is on the weight, you can move it. But with a 100 pound guy, he can hide his "center" while maintaining a downweight anywhere on his body. So the guy will not be able to sense where the pull is on the 100 pounder, while the 100 pounder is mentally directing gravitional force affecting his body and consequently aligning his body in such a way that it desires to stay clamped to the ground.

Spot on! I get it:-) Now I gotta work at being able to do it...

Cheers,

Russ

Janet Rosen
09-07-2011, 06:33 PM
The problem I find with Toby (and others good at this stuff) is that I can't ride that feeling back in to his center. With most "normal" folk when they have me I feel them as well.

yep....kinesthetic invisibility indeed.

Lorel Latorilla
09-07-2011, 06:50 PM
The tension/relaxation thing, I don't know where you got that because that's something I got from Systema guys. I've rolled with Vlad and he did the get my body to tense up in ways that would allow me to be easily put down. I don't know if this is the same as aiki though, unless you can explain more.

Keith I like that sandbag analogy! It easily describes what I'm trying to say, heh.

chillzATL
09-08-2011, 07:41 AM
The tension/relaxation thing, I don't know where you got that because that's something I got from Systema guys. I've rolled with Vlad and he did the get my body to tense up in ways that would allow me to be easily put down. I don't know if this is the same as aiki though, unless you can explain more.

Keith I like that sandbag analogy! It easily describes what I'm trying to say, heh.

I'd seen/felt it in various places, Toby, Mike and Ikeda, but like a lot of this stuff it didn't really come together in any measurable way until I started putting in enough time to be able to play with it more myself, feel it and then noodle things out in my head. Most of my time in aikido these days are spent playing with that basic idea and exploring the results/reactions in uke, which is how I think it's supposed to be. We try to avoid the whole "going through the motions" thing in our org and we have plenty of people who enjoy being hard to move and It's really fascinating to see how even a little bit of body skill can subtly influence a larger/stronger person who simply isn't connected, much less trying to incorporate the other aspects of IS into their movement. On the flip side, it's also interesting to see how easily it is, at least at my level, to have it not work at all for me when one of those aspects are neglected.

As far as calling it aiki, I think it depends on how its done. When done in the way we're talking about, using the body skills we're talking about, I wouldn't hesitate to call it that. Especially considering that it seems to conform to the common demos we see of aiki, which is getting under uke for kuzushi. Though I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time :)

Lorel Latorilla
09-08-2011, 11:32 PM
I'd seen/felt it in various places, Toby, Mike and Ikeda, but like a lot of this stuff it didn't really come together in any measurable way until I started putting in enough time to be able to play with it more myself, feel it and then noodle things out in my head. Most of my time in aikido these days are spent playing with that basic idea and exploring the results/reactions in uke, which is how I think it's supposed to be. We try to avoid the whole "going through the motions" thing in our org and we have plenty of people who enjoy being hard to move and It's really fascinating to see how even a little bit of body skill can subtly influence a larger/stronger person who simply isn't connected, much less trying to incorporate the other aspects of IS into their movement. On the flip side, it's also interesting to see how easily it is, at least at my level, to have it not work at all for me when one of those aspects are neglected.

As far as calling it aiki, I think it depends on how its done. When done in the way we're talking about, using the body skills we're talking about, I wouldn't hesitate to call it that. Especially considering that it seems to conform to the common demos we see of aiki, which is getting under uke for kuzushi. Though I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time :)

Well, for me, if tensing up the other guy to bring him down does not necessitate getting under the guy for kuzushi, I don't know if you can call it the same thing. I have both felt aiki and the tensing up thing, and they are two different kinds of tactics. I've grappled with Vlad and I would not call what he does aiki (aiki or not, what he did to me was damn effective)...at least in retrospect, since he has a very well developed relaxed body, I would have no doubt that he has an idea of what aiki is. But he did, at will, make my body tense up and use that to bring me down (perhaps this skill could be anti-aiki?) I just think that aiki to a unique, particular skill that can be defined, analyzed, and drilled.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-09-2011, 09:42 AM
This is said to be a clip of Mifune doing randori (year 1922).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_2EVfT03kA

jester
09-09-2011, 10:04 AM
This is said to be a clip of Mifune doing randori (year 1922).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_2EVfT03kA

I love to see old clips like that. Love the choke in that clip!!

If you've ever been foot swept by a skilled player, you will find there is no power in their move, just excellent timing and technique.

Judo is based on leverage and not power. Competitions don't always show this aspect though.

-

Demetrio Cereijo
09-09-2011, 10:13 AM
If you've ever been foot swept by a skilled player, you will find there is no power in their move, just excellent timing and technique.

Not like the "shinkickers" who mistake judo with soccer... ouch!!!

love to see old clips like that. Love the choke in that clip!!
Lots of old clips in that youtube channel. Worth watching.

chillzATL
09-09-2011, 10:29 AM
Well, for me, if tensing up the other guy to bring him down does not necessitate getting under the guy for kuzushi, I don't know if you can call it the same thing. I have both felt aiki and the tensing up thing, and they are two different kinds of tactics. I've grappled with Vlad and I would not call what he does aiki (aiki or not, what he did to me was damn effective)...at least in retrospect, since he has a very well developed relaxed body, I would have no doubt that he has an idea of what aiki is. But he did, at will, make my body tense up and use that to bring me down (perhaps this skill could be anti-aiki?) I just think that aiki to a unique, particular skill that can be defined, analyzed, and drilled.

I think we would have to come to terms on what we define as aiki. To me, it is using these body skills to connect to another persons center and get under/over them in order to take their balance and control them. The introduction of tension into uke simply aids that connection and is more a step towards the end result, not the end result itself. I believe that is why atemi was "90% of aikido" or whatever the number was. The strike should be delivered in a way consistent with the body skills with a goal of disrupting uke's center, but also introducing tension into their bodies to make the connection easier, not simply punching to punch or whatever. In most of the demos of aiki that you see, it seems to be a commonality. Uke is always getting manipulated with these body skills in such a way that they have tension introduced into their bodies, usually the shoulders being jacked up or stretched out. Nage is being the table that we discussed before and because uke is generally unconnected and tense in how they output power, those things happen as a result. Against someone with a more well connected body and/or better body skills, you don't get the same output of power from them so you don't get the same opportunities to connect to them. It becomes a more subtle thing and one that they are capable of feeling and recovering from more quidkly. When we talk about connection, we're essentially talking about finding lines of tension to uke's center. Sometimes it's skeletal, sometimes muscular and sometimes probably even intent driven. If, for whatever reason, you can't get to their center easily (they have body skills or even good athletic skills in some cases) then it becomes a cat and mouse game of trying to get that connection and I would imagine simply trying to get a little tension into the other person so that you have an opportunity to make that connection is as good as it gets. I believe external grappling (at high levels) works on essentially the same concept, albeit with a different motor driving the car and a different focus on how to step on the gas, but without the body skills, it's not aiki.

make sense? I think I got a little rambly there, but I hope it was clear. Do you agree or disagree with that attempt at a definition?

chillzATL
09-09-2011, 10:30 AM
This is said to be a clip of Mifune doing randori (year 1922).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_2EVfT03kA

That's great!

Demetrio Cereijo
09-09-2011, 11:11 AM
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.

gates
09-09-2011, 11:39 AM
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.

Demetrio,
Is there a hint of sarcasm in that?
You are either very wrong or very right.

Keith Larman
09-09-2011, 12:02 PM
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.

Actually in a couple of those clips he does some throws in a very distinctive fashion. Minimal movement, total connection, and he takes a much larger fella off instantaneously. Having been thrown that way via brute force and having been on the receiving end of someone doing it with tremendous grace and elegance using something other than the brute force, it is unmistakable. Okay, can't be 100% sure. Nor can I be 100% sure there is no such thing as unicorns. However, as you said, it has to be felt. And once you've felt it enough times in enough contexts you start to see more and more of the tell tale signs.

So yeah, the guy has some serious skills. Seems obvious from the video.

chillzATL
09-09-2011, 12:06 PM
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.

I would be more inclined to attempt to seriously answer the question if you hadn't been around these discussions long enough to have seen this asked and answered several times before...

not sure if serious or just being sarcastic...

gates
09-09-2011, 12:18 PM
I would be more inclined to attempt to seriously answer the question if you hadn't been around these discussions long enough to have seen this asked and answered several times before...

not sure if serious or just being sarcastic...

If he is being Sarcastic I will warm to him.
Cheeky monkey a bit like Mifune naturally swinging from that guy.
"Weight underside" a concept well coined by Tohei I do believe.

Takes one to know one !!!

Keith Larman
09-09-2011, 12:24 PM
And just to toss out a novice view...

I've seen tremendously good stuff from people who were able to attain a level of relaxation combined with incredible timing. When it works it is truly sublime. But the IS stuff seems to be something else entirely. That said being able to relax the musculature and allow the "something else" to take over is part of it. So I see guys doing stuff that is relaxed the point of silliness and who are totally ineffective except against their students who "attack" accordingly. So they see the relaxed part and think "oh, that's it". Within our group our late sensei changed the translation of Tohei's principle of "relax completely" to "controlled relaxation" because he felt it better conveyed what Tohei meant in his conversations in Japanese on the topic with him. So the question becomes what is that "controlled" part when you're otherwise relaxed? I see that in Mifune when he's able to shut down the bigger guys. Then also when he goes in to his throw he doesn't suddenly tense up. He's connected completely, controlled, but relaxed and has kuzushi before the other guy realizes it. It reminds me very much of a good sleight of hand artist. What you see of the trick is actually the end result and not the hard part. So it's easy to confuse the "tada!" part with the actual difficult skills that allowed it to happen so easily...

Now I'm rambling.

I see that video and just shrug. Looks pretty damned talented to me. And it ain't brute strength. And it ain't just timing. And it ain't just "relaxation". He's fully connected internally and is able to connect to the other guy completely allowing him to easily imbalance and throw with minimal effort. Connection. Oneness of body and energy and attachment. Aiki...

Mongo go back to work now... Let others debate meaning of life...

gates
09-09-2011, 01:00 PM
Within our group our late sensei changed the translation of Tohei's principle of "relax completely" to "controlled relaxation" because he felt it better conveyed what Tohei meant in his conversations in Japanese on the topic with him. So the question becomes what is that "controlled" part when you're otherwise relaxed?

When you do unbendable arm you cant let your arm relax completely it just bends. Given the great threads about the fascia system perhaps we could re translate 'extend ki' as 'Relax muscles - engage total body fascia system'.

Relaxation as 'weight underside' does not mean '(relaxed) dead weight'. Playing either 'game' and you can start to work things.

I wonder how many of the throws he uses to down the Judo guys are legal in a Judo comp?

Keith Larman
09-09-2011, 01:32 PM
When you do unbendable arm you cant let your arm relax completely it just bends. Given the great threads about the fascia system perhaps we could re translate 'extend ki' as 'Relax muscles - engage total body fascia system'.

FWIW Rod Kobayashi "retranslated" a couple of the principles for us. So instead of "extend ki" he said "let your ki flow". The idea to get that feeling throughout your body of "connectedness" to allow the "ki" to move. Instead of "weight underside" he went with "settle down". From what I understand he liked the emotional connotation of "settle down" as well as the idea of everything simply settling in to its "proper" place. So it's not about "getting low" as much as a way of standing allowing things to settle in to their proper places. So add those in to the idea of "controlled" relaxation.

I've always found it interesting that he translated these things differently from the "official" ki society translations. He was bilingual and apparently felt that the translations didn't always quite convey the meaning correctly.

Just a gigantic fwiw. Interesting glimpses looking back... Seeing through new eyes and all that. I'd love to have a time machine and go back 35 years and ask a few questions...

sakumeikan
09-09-2011, 03:31 PM
Dear All,
Before I entered into Aikido I studied Judo. My teacher , A Mr Tam Mc Dermott during the thirteen years I trained with him I never saw him being thrown by anyone.He was registered disabled and walking down the street he was always shuffling along due to arthritis.Once on the mat he was transformed.He could give you advanced notice of what throw he was going to use and despite all defences , he always bounced you off the mat.He was not a big man , but a genius at judo.I also met Saburo Matsushita , Anton Geesink , a giant but very light on his feet , Kisaburo Watanabe [a great stylist ]and for me the best ever Kenshiro Abbe. He was a great Budo man.An excellent Aikidoka.See Henry Ellis web site.
As it happens, one of my contemporaries, George Kerr,has received 10th Dan .He is now in his 70s.All these men were fluid in their waza and almost impossible to throw.Good posture, good weight distribution , coupled with good timing was the key to their success.

gates
09-10-2011, 12:11 AM
Not like the "shinkickers" who mistake judo with soccer... ouch!!!

Lots of old clips in that youtube channel. Worth watching.
Thanks Demetrio for sharing.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nicholai0hel#p/u/24/X4Q96TQoT6s

The Mifune video had inspired me to pull out an old book I was given about 15 years ago and was looking at it whilst watching the videos, what a nice coincidence to see somebody has kindly re-digitized it.

I know this is all off topic but it reminded me of a little story. We used to play fight with friends as a teenagers. I had spent all afternoon studdying Hisa Guruma from the book. My friend attacked me wanting a wrestling match, I was not in the mood. He did some weight training and was quite a bit bigger than me, I was tired and feeling bad. He would not let up so I decided to try to employ my new technique.

I finished the technique by jumping in the air and landing on his shoulders with both my knees, I then slapped him hard across the face and exclaimed "have you had enough?" to which he replied more meekishly than I had ever seen him, "yes, yes, you win, you win".

Given the conversations about the validity of learning from videos and books. I think you definitely can learn some aspects and techniques from videos and books especially relatively simple unbalancing techniques such as Hisa Guruma.

Lorel Latorilla
09-10-2011, 01:17 AM
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.

Just making a guess? You have any other explanations why a slight old man is able to stop throws from a younger bigger guy and is able, almost at will, to throw the same guy around? Would love to hear your explanations on this one.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-10-2011, 06:41 AM
Just making a guess? You have any other explanations why a slight old man is able to stop throws from a younger bigger guy and is able, almost at will, to throw the same guy around? Would love to hear your explanations on this one.

I have alternative theories, but I wasn't asking about if Mifune had it or not.

I'm asking about posters ability to affirm he had it from watching Mifune perform, when the consensus was, to date, that telling aiki usage from another skills (excellent timing, leverage, technique, etc) like the people Joe mentioned in his post; or psychological manipulation (and there are cases of people using "headology" and calling it aiki), can be only done in person.

Keith answered:

And once you've felt it enough times in enough contexts you start to see more and more of the tell tale signs.

Now, we have something to work on.

Keith, In the youtube channel I linked there are various old judo films. Would you be so kind to watch them (no need to hurry, take your time cause this is not something urgent, only historical curiosity) and if you see another case of aiki in old judo point to it?

Lorel Latorilla
09-10-2011, 07:20 AM
I have alternative theories, but I wasn't asking about if Mifune had it or not.

I'm asking about posters ability to affirm he had it from watching Mifune perform, when the consensus was, to date, that telling aiki usage from another skills (excellent timing, leverage, technique, etc) like the people Joe mentioned in his post; or psychological manipulation (and there are cases of people using "headology" and calling it aiki), can be only done in person.

Keith answered:

Now, we have something to work on.

Keith, In the youtube channel I linked there are various old judo films. Would you be so kind to watch them (no need to hurry, take your time cause this is not something urgent, only historical curiosity) and if you see another case of aiki in old judo point to it?

No offense, but your post does not make sense. Can you make it clearer so I can understand?

gregstec
09-10-2011, 08:21 AM
Actually in a couple of those clips he does some throws in a very distinctive fashion. Minimal movement, total connection, and he takes a much larger fella off instantaneously. Having been thrown that way via brute force and having been on the receiving end of someone doing it with tremendous grace and elegance using something other than the brute force, it is unmistakable. Okay, can't be 100% sure. Nor can I be 100% sure there is no such thing as unicorns. However, as you said, it has to be felt. And once you've felt it enough times in enough contexts you start to see more and more of the tell tale signs.

So yeah, the guy has some serious skills. Seems obvious from the video.

I am with Keith here - it is very obvious that the man has extreme talent, and there are clues in there that may lead the experienced IS guy to think IS is going on, but the only true way to know what is really happening is to feel it yourself.

Greg

Demetrio Cereijo
09-10-2011, 08:30 AM
No offense, but your post does not make sense. Can you make it clearer so I can understand?

Is there aiki in any of the other old movies available in that youtube channel? Hirano had it? Oda had it? What about Nagaoka?

gregstec
09-10-2011, 08:38 AM
FWIW Rod Kobayashi "retranslated" a couple of the principles for us. So instead of "extend ki" he said "let your ki flow". The idea to get that feeling throughout your body of "connectedness" to allow the "ki" to move. Instead of "weight underside" he went with "settle down". From what I understand he liked the emotional connotation of "settle down" as well as the idea of everything simply settling in to its "proper" place. So it's not about "getting low" as much as a way of standing allowing things to settle in to their proper places. So add those in to the idea of "controlled" relaxation.

I've always found it interesting that he translated these things differently from the "official" ki society translations. He was bilingual and apparently felt that the translations didn't always quite convey the meaning correctly.

Just a gigantic fwiw. Interesting glimpses looking back... Seeing through new eyes and all that. I'd love to have a time machine and go back 35 years and ask a few questions...

I also have found Tohie's nomenclature of the four principles somewhat misleading and hard to truly understand, so I view them as follows:

1. Keep One Point: Place your mind in your center and move and look at everything from there.

2. Keep Weight Underside: Think down, simply allow all your weight to settle down as you mentioned.

3. Relax Completely: Soft extension to take the slack out of the body while removing all muscle tension.

4. Extend Ki: Mentally fill the soft extended body with ki and extend it outside the body from center in all directions to develop awareness.

Greg

Keith Larman
09-10-2011, 09:02 AM
Ya know, Demetrio, this is why this stuff gets tiring for *everyone* involved. It's not like we're talking about absolutes. I've seen a *lot* of really experienced judoka who could do really amazing things. I do subscribe to Ellis' idea in his "Hidden in Plain Sight" book that through long term proper ukemi people can develop a "different" physicality. And I have little doubt many people in many arts develop some of these abilities to some extent or another.

Whether they *focus* on those things and try to develop it explicitly is another issue entirely.

I have *long* argued that the problem with this stuff within Aikido is that those who could do it to some extent or another lacked a complete and comprehensive framework from within which to transmit the information to their students. That doesn't mean there wasn't some transmission to some. Just that many didn't "get it" simply because the person who "had it" lacked the ability to communicate what they were doing. They "felt it" because for whatever reason they had developed the ability/sensitivity to do it. But lacking that development the students were handicapped. The teacher says "just relax and extend ki". The student says "what the hell does that mean?" The teacher feels it. The student doesn't.

I have trained with people in JJ who have remarkably subtle body skills, something I'd call akin to aiki. Whether it is their primary tool or just something they developed varies with each person. And I'm sure as hell not the judge of who's got it and who doesn't.

I see Mifune doing stuff that reminds me greatly of times I've been thrown in incredibly subtle ways not using just muscle, timing and technique. I see the attacker's balance taken before the throw. I see no jerk, no "power" move, just a clean, solid connection taking a much larger man down. Something from his very core.

I've seen similar stuff in a some martial artists. Usually the very experienced, long term guys who trained very, very hard for many years who over time softened up in to amazingly subtle artists. Based on *my* experiences and what *I've* felt I have little problem saying they probably have developed some degree of the body and sensitivity to do some of this stuff. Is it pure? Is it canonical? Hell, I don't know. I don't care either.

It's not either/or. And this sort of petty bickering and absolutist crap is simply silly.

Please forget I ever posted a thought. Make your own minds up. Lord knows I keep going out and getting hands on different people and I've had to swallow my pride many times already. Will likely have to do it again. So on that note, damatte keikoshiro. No, I'm not saying that to anyone else. Just myself.

Lorel Latorilla
09-10-2011, 09:12 AM
Is there aiki in any of the other old movies available in that youtube channel? Hirano had it? Oda had it? What about Nagaoka?

Sorry I don't know these guys. I'm done with this thread. Thanks

Ellis Amdur
09-10-2011, 09:25 AM
Umm - one point that nobody has considered, apparently. This was probably not randori. I spoke with a judoka many years ago, who was, in the 60's, right below the top tier (didn't quite make it to the Olympic trials). He was, at that time, about 180-190 pounds. I asked him if he'd ever done randori with Mifune. He said that he had. And I asked him if he had been helpless, "like the guy in the film." He replied, "Mifune sensei was an old man. He was incredible for his age, but he was old. Of course, I didn't go all out. We took falls for him. Sort of like aikido."
Best
Ellis Amdur

Demetrio Cereijo
09-10-2011, 09:44 AM
Ellis, you could have waited a bit...

dps
09-10-2011, 10:00 AM
Umm - one point that nobody has considered, apparently. This was probably not randori. I spoke with a judoka many years ago, who was, in the 60's, right below the top tier (didn't quite make it to the Olympic trials). He was, at that time, about 180-190 pounds. I asked him if he'd ever done randori with Mifune. He said that he had. And I asked him if he had been helpless, "like the guy in the film." He replied, "Mifune sensei was an old man. He was incredible for his age, but he was old. Of course, I didn't go all out. We took falls for him. Sort of like aikido."
Best
Ellis Amdur

Which should be a reminder to all not to trust videos to reveal all and as you get older beware of people younger than you telling you how great you are. They may be just humoring the old man or woman.

dps

dps

Allen Beebe
09-10-2011, 10:30 AM
BTW, I believe I remember Jon Bluming, who trained under Mifune and others at the Kodokan, while appreciating and respecting Mifune as a teacher (He enjoys telling a story of seeing Mifune lovingly tending the flowers in his garden and thinking to himself, "Damn! I hope I never wind up like THAT old fart!" Only to tearfully be stopped cold, decades later, by that very recollection as he (Jon Bluming) was lovingly tending the flowers in his garden!) , scorned the idea that he (Mifune) was somehow "superhuman" in ability, similarly describing him as small and old and therefore necessarily needing to being shown due physical deference in the dojo.

Interestingly enough, Jon Bluming also visited the Aikido Hombu dojo having heard that Ueshiba Morihei was reported to have "superhuman" abilities. If I remember correctly, after observing a demonstration by Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Jon Bluming basically stated that the whole affair looked like "fair dancing" to him (or something along those lines) and asked if Ueshiba Morihei or anybody else wouldn't mind showing him personally the superhuman efficaciousness of Aikido . . . instead he was shown the door.

Consequently Aikido was not one of the many arts (Judo, Karate, Kendo, Jodo, Iaido) that Jon Bluming studied to the Yudansha level and beyond . . .

When I contrast his behavior in the Aikido dojo vs the Judo dojo I wonder if the difference in behavior was due to the claims made by the practitioners at the time. Perhaps in the Judo dojo the claim made for Mifune sensei by Judoka was that he was a phenomenal technician and teacher, while perhaps the claim made for Ueshiba sensei by Aikidoka was that he was "superhuman."

Cady Goldfield
09-10-2011, 10:33 AM
The discussion is about Mifune's trademark judo, and what he used to give power to his judo.
We all acknowledge the toll that age takes on our physical abilities. However, the deference to an old man should in no way discredit or diminish the value of Mifune's very real skill, gamesmanship and knowledge, or convince the uninitiated that "IP" and aiki do not exist.

Chris Li
09-10-2011, 10:39 AM
FWIW Rod Kobayashi "retranslated" a couple of the principles for us. So instead of "extend ki" he said "let your ki flow". The idea to get that feeling throughout your body of "connectedness" to allow the "ki" to move. Instead of "weight underside" he went with "settle down". From what I understand he liked the emotional connotation of "settle down" as well as the idea of everything simply settling in to its "proper" place. So it's not about "getting low" as much as a way of standing allowing things to settle in to their proper places. So add those in to the idea of "controlled" relaxation.

I've always found it interesting that he translated these things differently from the "official" ki society translations. He was bilingual and apparently felt that the translations didn't always quite convey the meaning correctly.

Just a gigantic fwiw. Interesting glimpses looking back... Seeing through new eyes and all that. I'd love to have a time machine and go back 35 years and ask a few questions...

FWIW, here are the originals:

1、臍下の一点に心をしずめ統一する。
2、全身の力を完全に抜く。
3、身体の総ての部分の重みを、その最下のおく。
4、氣を出す。

"Let your ki flow" would be a pretty liberal re-interpretation (not saying it's wrong).

Best,

Chris

Allen Beebe
09-10-2011, 10:49 AM
FWIW, here are the originals:

1、臍下の一点に心'しずめ統一する。
'、全身の力'完全に抜く。
"、身"の総ての部分の重み'、その最下のおく。
"、氣'出す。

"Let your ki flow" would be a pretty liberal re-interpretation (not saying it's wrong).

Best,

Chris

Hey Chris,

This is the second time your post appears to be "garble gook" on my computer. The first time I thought you MEANT to post "garble gook." but now I've figured out that you are probably posting Japanese . . . which normally appears without problem on my computer.

Do you have any guess as to why I'm having this problem or any solutions?

Thanks,
Allen

Chris Li
09-10-2011, 11:02 AM
Hey Chris,

This is the second time your post appears to be "garble gook" on my computer. The first time I thought you MEANT to post "garble gook." but now I've figured out that you are probably posting Japanese . . . which normally appears without problem on my computer.

Do you have any guess as to why I'm having this problem or any solutions?

Thanks,
Allen

Just doing my bit to protect the secrets :)

It has something to do with the forum software, but I'm not sure what. Here's a link with the Japanese (and some explanation - I haven't read through it, it just came up on Google):

http://www.ac.auone-net.jp/~aikida/touitudou/touitu.htm

Best,

Chris

Demetrio Cereijo
09-10-2011, 11:03 AM
The discussion is about Mifune's trademark judo, and what he used to give power to his judo.
Yes

We all acknowledge the toll that age takes on our physical abilities. However, the deference to an old man should in no way discredit or diminish the value of Mifune's very real skill, gamesmanship and knowledge, or convince the uninitiated that "IP" and aiki do not exist.
Of course.

But also, is about the reliability of the expert witnesses who are delivering expert evidence about who has IP based on what they see on video.

Remember there is not possible to feel Mifune anymore. Expert witnesses and remembrances of the people who trained with him is the only thing available today.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-10-2011, 11:20 AM
Interestingly enough, Jon Bluming also visited the Aikido Hombu dojo having heard that Ueshiba Morihei was reported to have "superhuman" abilities. If I remember correctly, after observing a demonstration by Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Jon Bluming basically stated that the whole affair looked like "fair dancing" to him (or something along those lines) and asked if Ueshiba Morihei or anybody else wouldn't mind showing him personally the superhuman efficaciousness of Aikido . . . instead he was shown the door.


Bluming interview (extract):

Q: To impress the Westerners who were attracted to martial arts, do you think that some Japanese personalities have greatly exaggerated their capabilities and historical facts with unbelievable stories?

A: Definitely yes! And the worst place is Asia. But there are plenty who really are what they say. Please allow me to tell you a funny example of this. My wife works for the Dutch-Chinese travel office. One day while I was waiting for her, I picked up a Chinese magazine about sports. I saw some Chinese wushu, and there was an article in memoriam of a 100-year-old Chinese wushu teacher who had passed away. He was very famous in his district because he had defeated a tiger with his bare hands many years before. I would have loved to talked to the man and taken some lessons from him, but I am afraid I would not have been able to keep a straight face! In another magazine, some time later, I found the same story. This time it was a black bear. Well, it’s up to you guys to believe it or not. Some wushu people said they believed it, and that’s the kind the money grabbers love so much because they pay a lot of money for this crap. I remember that Draeger Sensei took me to the Ueshiba dojo for aikido classes. I looked on in amazement. The movements were very nice, but on the street nobody is going to run around you and jump all over himself when taken by the wrist! I asked the sensei if I could fight one of his students or his son, but he told me they did not fight. I asked them if that’s how they did their championships, but they said they didn’t. So I told them that I could take dancing lessons in Holland. To be honest, in the modern fashion of aikijitsu, there are some very good and real street-fighting techniques that are useful. I even studied some, so that has changed for the better. This is simply an example to show you how those stupid stories come into the world. When I was training under Oyama Sensei for several weeks, he invited Bill and I into the office upstairs. While there, he showed us a film of him fighting a bull at Tatyama prefecture in 1952. To start, it was not a bull but an ox. That is a big difference, my friend! The ox was visibly scared because oxes are kept as pets in farm country, and they let them fight each other under strict rules like sumo. As soon as they put their heads together to push each other over a certain spot in the ring and there is some blood, they stop the fight and care for their pets. To hit one that is very much used to being stroked emotionally is — in my opinion — very wrong. I love animals. Oyama Sensei never killed the ox; they did that at the slaughterhouse. But he seriously hurt the animal. The ox did not want to fight and never attempted to do anything. That’s sad. I told Sensei Draeger not to show this to Westerners because they would not like it. He looked at me and said that he [Oyama] was not completely crazy, and we had a good dinner after that. Oyama explained that this occurred at the start of kyokushin karate, and he needed the publicity stunt. He added that he would never do something like that again.

Keith Larman
09-10-2011, 01:27 PM
FWIW, here are the originals:

1、臍下の一点に心'しずめ統一する。
'、全身の力'完全に抜く。
"、身"の総ての部分の重み'、その最下のおく。
"、氣'出す。

"Let your ki flow" would be a pretty liberal re-interpretation (not saying it's wrong).

Best,

Chris

Chris:

I wouldn't think of arguing the point and I think you are correct. I should probably have added that Kobayashi's "retranslation" wasn't just an issue of translation. It was also due to his training with Tohei here and in Japan. And also late night conversations over beverages. Kobayashi apparently felt that his version better conveyed to his students what he had learned from Tohei. None of these concepts are easy to convey to begin with and there is a lot of subtlety involved. There is also, of course, the difference of how people come to understand these things. Kobayashi felt his "version" of the principle was better for his students given how he was teaching. Now of course I agree but I come from that lineage so that shouldn't be surprising as it fits the larger framework of my understanding better. The larger meta-issue is whether it in fact does map better to whatever the heck it is that's happening when we do that voodoo we doooooo... ;) Shu be do be do...

Me, I don't have a clue. Just tryin' to figure it out for myself.

Allen Beebe
09-10-2011, 03:09 PM
Just doing my bit to protect the secrets :)

It has something to do with the forum software, but I'm not sure what. Here's a link with the Japanese (and some explanation - I haven't read through it, it just came up on Google):

http://www.ac.auone-net.jp/~aikida/touitudou/touitu.htm

Best,

Chris

Thanks Chris!

All the best,
Allen

Cady Goldfield
09-11-2011, 11:31 AM
But also, is about the reliability of the expert witnesses who are delivering expert evidence about who has IP based on what they see on video.

Remember there is not possible to feel Mifune anymore. Expert witnesses and remembrances of the people who trained with him is the only thing available today.

No, it is not possible to directly feel what Mifune was doing, but we should give some credit and credibility to individuals who have directly felt and trained in "internal" body methods, when they say that they can recognize certain visual cues -- even in a video -- that such skills are being used.

As an example, albeit an imperfect one: Back in the 1980s, a movie called "The Black Stallion" came out in the U.S., and I watched it with a young man I was dating at the time. The movie was about -- of course -- a black stallion, and a young boy who befriended it.

There came a scene in the movie where the horse and the boy were walking on a sandy beach along the ocean. I watched the horse's movements, and casually mentioned to my boyfriend, "That horse is about to drop and roll on the ground." About two seconds later, sure enough, the horse dropped and rolled. My boyfriend was taken aback: "You've already seen this movie," he said with some annoyance. But, I had not. I had been riding and working around horses since I was four years old, and I owned a horse. I knew the body language.

Similarly, there are visual cues and hints in Mifune's videos to someone who has some background in IMA and knows what to watch for. This does not mean that they always can see everything, or that it's never difficult to discern "internal" from "just very good judo," but I would not be so reticent about giving the people who train this way, some respect for their observations.

My old boyfriend continued to believe that I had seen "The Black Stallion" beforehand, until I had described to him the body cues to watch for, and he saw my horse do the exact same thing, ;)

Demetrio Cereijo
09-11-2011, 11:39 AM
we should give some credit and credibility to individuals who have directly felt and trained in "internal" body methods, when they say that they can recognize certain visual cues -- even in a video -- that such skills are being used.

To all of them?

Cady Goldfield
09-11-2011, 11:45 AM
To all of them?

That's a question you certainly could answer for yourself.

jester
09-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Is there an exact description of what IP is on this forum? If so, please post it so we can all be on the same page.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-12-2011, 03:05 AM
Is there an exact description of what IP is on this forum? If so, please post it so we can all be on the same page.

IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.

PS: More on Bluming's visit to Aikikai Hombu
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=158239&postcount=41

gates
09-12-2011, 03:27 AM
IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.


Maybe to give us a clue we should refer to the latest Shambala release "The IP of Pooh"

Demetrio Cereijo
09-12-2011, 03:33 AM
The IP of Pooh comes from eating hunny.

dps
09-12-2011, 04:45 AM
IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.

PS: More on Bluming's visit to Aikikai Hombu
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=158239&postcount=41

from that article;

"From Bluming's point of view, it had to work on him and be functional"

Practical application in real life not videos, demos, or forum posts determines credibility.

dps

Lorel Latorilla
09-12-2011, 05:27 AM
Ignore function is awesome.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-12-2011, 05:38 AM
Ignore function is awesome.

There is no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness.
:D :D :D

jester
09-12-2011, 07:56 AM
IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.

Any physical activity can be expressed and explained.

What I see in the Mifune video is Judo. He was very good of course but he's up against a lot of guys who weren't even close to his level. It's no wonder that none of them stand any chance of throwing him.



-

Keith Larman
09-12-2011, 08:17 AM
Any physical activity can be expressed and explained.

No, those physical activities for which we have a vocabulary due to a deeper understanding can be explained.

There is another thread here on the forums that tries to give a framework in western/modern terms as to what *might* be going on.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20239

It fits well with my personal perception of my own experiences. It *could* be. I'm not a physiologist. But has been an increasing awareness within sports medicine and other related fields that our simple models of human movement (bones at structure, muscles as little contracting engines) may be oversimplified.

What I see in the Mifune video is Judo. He was very good of course but he's up against a lot of guys who weren't even close to his level. It's no wonder that none of them stand any chance of throwing him.
-

And what some of us are saying is that if the ideas expressed are correct then many of the greats in many physical endeavors may in fact develop aspects of this same thing we're talking about and their utilization of those developed body attributes helps them transcend. You can be very good without them. But having the skills is just yet another tool in the toolbox.

What I tried to say before the condescending/dismissive BS entered the conversation was that yes, there are aspects of his movement that look very much like IP as I have experienced it.

But I'm done. I've read the last few comments and realize there is little sincerity among some posters (not you, Tim) and to be honest I see little point in this. There's tough guys on the forum who discount it but won't bother getting out to see any of the guys. Their's aiki-fluffy guys who discount it but won't get out and get hands on. No amount of talking is going to convince everyone.

I would suggest reading Allen Beebe's recent post. He very eloquently expressed the issue facing people trying to understand this stuff as well as the philosophical conundrum of trying to "deconstruct" something of this nature.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20267

chillzATL
09-12-2011, 08:40 AM
one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that there are many layers to the onion that is IP with each layer really being its own specific thing. Nobody should be surprised to see these various layers pop up in all sorts of places, MA based or not. Having some grasp of one of those aspects doesn't imply having them all.

While I think Mifune has a relaxed, connected body and he does use the ground for support as mentioned earlier, it's impossible to say to what degree those skills exist and how much of what you see is just damned good judo skills augmented slightly by them. If one were to do strictly IP based "tests" with him, I'd imagine his skill level wouldn't astound anyone, but when you take what he has, combined with a lifetime of technical skill, practice and such, you get someone like him.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-12-2011, 09:21 AM
While I think Mifune has a relaxed, connected body and he does use the ground for support as mentioned earlier, it's impossible to say to what degree those skills exist and how much of what you see is just damned good judo skills augmented slightly by them. If one were to do strictly IP based "tests" with him, I'd imagine his skill level wouldn't astound anyone, but when you take what he has, combined with a lifetime of technical skill, practice and such, you get someone like him.

So we could discard the existence of some kind of IP developement methods in early Kodokan judo.

Thanks for the info.

chillzATL
09-12-2011, 09:44 AM
So we could discard the existence of some kind of IP developement methods in early Kodokan judo.

Thanks for the info.

no, I wouldn't say that at all. I'm no Judo historian, but I recall there being several old kata that are different in nature to most others. It's theorized that those kata's are for just that, but few if any actually bother with them. The old "nobody trains like that anymore" thing. There would also have to be some level of instruction on how to do the kata's as well, for it to matter. The question would be to what degree those kata trained the skills overall.

It's just reworking the body to move in a different way, not magic.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-12-2011, 09:58 AM
But Jason,

Mifune, and the other judoka I pointed to, were the guys who trained those kata. So the theory that those kata were (at least at the beginning of judo) IP training tools is probably wrong (or the kata impropery practised).

Itsutsu no kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48), for instance dates from late 19 century (iirc it comes from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu)... something went wrong or they were wrong from the start?

chillzATL
09-12-2011, 10:59 AM
But Jason,

Mifune, and the other judoka I pointed to, were the guys who trained those kata. So the theory that those kata were (at least at the beginning of judo) IP training tools is probably wrong (or the kata impropery practised).

Itsutsu no kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48), for instance dates from late 19 century (iirc it comes from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu)... something went wrong or they were wrong from the start?

I don't understand how this changes anything. I said that Mifune seems to have some aspects of IS skill, but to what degree I can't say and it certainly isn't evident on the video. IMO it would not be to the degree of someone like Ueshiba, Takeda, etc. That's just my opinion though, but I think it's a safe one to give.

As I also said, there has to be a certain amount of understanding involved with the doing. Does that make sense? A lot of people do a lot of things and never really understand them. Just deciding you're going to do something doesn't really mean that you're going to be able to do it.

As for the kata, I'm speculating, but I would think that these were separate movements made into a kata, but again, me speculating. I don't think that's hte one I'm thinking of, I recall it being much longer. Anyway, I see a lot of relaxed stretching of the body to connect it as a unit, there could be breathing components as well, but you can't tell from the vid. The one where he backs into uke with his forearm on his chest looks very similar to an exercise Toby Threadgill teaches.

Toby Threadgill
09-12-2011, 06:20 PM
The one where he backs into uke with his forearm on his chest looks very similar to an exercise Toby Threadgill teaches.

FWIW...During one of my forays into Kanda bookstores I found a small book first published in the late 1800's titled something like "Judo Giho and Gokui" One chapter included notes and drawings related to several of the Yoshin ryu Nairiki kata. I should have bought it but the price was an obscene 45,000 yen. My shopping colleague, budo historian and friend Shingo Ohgami took a peek at the book and said he already had a copy of the book and I could scan it. A year later while visiting Ohgami's sensei's research library I located his copy of the book intent on scanning it for my collection. When I looked for the Nairiki chapter it was not to be found. It seems Ohgami's copy of the book was a much later printing from the early 20th century and the Nairiki chapter had been omitted. Unfortunately, stuff like the Nairiki kata were deemed martial mysticism by early 20th century Judoka and slowly abandoned. So here we are 100 years later wondering what a guy like Kyuzo Mifune was exposed to and by whom. You see, when I watch Mifune, I see some of the telltale internal signs Keith Larman alluded to. So, there's little question in my mind that Kyuzo Mifune had some level of internal skills, and given that two lines of Yoshin ryu had a significant technical impact on Judo, I believe I'm familiar with the source of his internal skills. The question remains who taught him and how deep was his study. That we'll never know.

Regardless, the guy was a fantastic judoka and an exquisite budo technician. I admire him and his skills greatly.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

DH
09-12-2011, 06:39 PM
no, I wouldn't say that at all. I'm no Judo historian, but I recall there being several old kata that are different in nature to most others. It's theorized that those kata's are for just that, but few if any actually bother with them. The old "nobody trains like that anymore" thing. There would also have to be some level of instruction on how to do the kata's as well, for it to matter. The question would be to what degree those kata trained the skills overall.

It's just reworking the body to move in a different way, not magic.
I agree. Of those I have seen and also were shown by old Kodokan guys, they were more indicative of six-direction training, postural alignment, weight transfer, and also of more technical oriented movement, which Mifune shows and not much else. These are very, very basic things (which Keith and Toby allude to).While I am a fan, I think the internal connection is overplayed. There is no indication of deeper or higher level internal work that I have seen, just excellent...oh hell...superior- technical skill.
Dan
P.S. ...."The Nairiki chapter was ommited..." Surprise!
Tobs, bet ya wish you could go back in time and buy that book now. Not that you needed it, but these tidbits to tie things together are priceless.

jss
09-13-2011, 01:06 AM
Is there an exact description of what IP is on this forum? If so, please post it so we can all be on the same page.

IP as it is used here on Aikiweb is at the most basic level: powering movement by using the support of the ground or your body weight through a relaxed yet connected body. There are more than enough directions to take it from there, though.
It's a bit like saying that playing the guitar is pressing strings with your left hand and plucking then with your right hand. It's not untrue, but it's not necessarily music either.

For further catch-up reading: everything by Mike Sigman (including his blog here on Aikiweb) and everything by Dan Harden. And plenty of posts by other people, but you'll find those in most threads with posts of those two gentlemen. :-)

ewolput
09-13-2011, 06:18 AM
Most of the people see judo as a "sports game", but in older times it was quite different. They spoke how to use force, strength and power. They had a kata to cultivate "ki"
The text below is from a study about the forgotten judo kata : go-no-kata

Ju no kata and go no kata.
The efficient study of these two Kata would have given the practitioners the key of how to use their own physical force in a manner consistent with the theory of yielding. In some older texts the Go-no-Kata is called Go Ju-no-Kata, emphasizing the correlation between the use of force and the study of gentleness that is in its exercises. This kata is thought to be the only Judo kata intended to assist in the development of actual physical force, but also to use correctly the force of Uke during the action. Tenth Dan Nagaoka recommended practicing this kata before every lesson like a warming up exercise. Nagaoka also wrote that the Go-no-Kata contributes to increased willpower, physical force, and ki.

Interesting?

Eddy

dps
09-13-2011, 07:23 AM
Most of the people see judo as a "sports game", but in older times it was quite different. They spoke how to use force, strength and power. They had a kata to cultivate "ki"
The text below is from a study about the forgotten judo kata : go-no-kata

Ju no kata and go no kata.
The efficient study of these two Kata would have given the practitioners the key of how to use their own physical force in a manner consistent with the theory of yielding. In some older texts the Go-no-Kata is called Go Ju-no-Kata, emphasizing the correlation between the use of force and the study of gentleness that is in its exercises. This kata is thought to be the only Judo kata intended to assist in the development of actual physical force, but also to use correctly the force of Uke during the action. Tenth Dan Nagaoka recommended practicing this kata before every lesson like a warming up exercise. Nagaoka also wrote that the Go-no-Kata contributes to increased willpower, physical force, and ki.

Interesting?

Eddy

Ju-no-kata before 1940

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Le9LeVsEY

dps

jester
09-13-2011, 07:57 AM
For further catch-up reading: everything by Mike Sigman (including his blog here on Aikiweb) and everything by Dan Harden. And plenty of posts by other people, but you'll find those in most threads with posts of those two gentlemen. :-)

The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to?? :hypno:

Demetrio Cereijo
09-13-2011, 08:28 AM
About Go-no-Kata:

http://howdoarmbar.blogspot.com/2010/04/kodokan-judos-elusive-tenth-kata-go-no.html

Lorel Latorilla
09-13-2011, 08:29 AM
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to?? :hypno:

Forget listening. Go out and meet people. There are plenty people around your way that are practing these bodyskills. I never knew I had it in my own backyard--I had to go to Japan to enter the 36 chambazzz.

gates
09-13-2011, 08:38 AM
For anybody that is interested here is a link to the full 1hr 3 minute long video, with subtitles for those of us that cannot speak Japanese. To be honest I havn't had a chance to watch it is detail myself yet. The five principles at 30 odd minutes are interesting too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46veLgINFjU

The description of Judo using the ball is interesting at 34 minutes which led me onto an interesting thought. (Interesting to me at least !)

In DF Draeger's Martial Ways of Japan Volume III, Modern Bujutsu and Budo, I remember he makes a comparison that in Judo you pull when 'pushed' and 'push' when pulled and that contrastingly in Aikido when 'pushed' you turn and when 'pulled' you enter. Maybe this is incorrect information as...

It is interesting to note that Mifune says, when 'pushed' turn, when 'pulled' go with it on an angle. This is clearly more akin to tenkan and irimi, omote and ura, core principles in Aikido tai sabaki.

I never knew Judo had such a broad range of techniques from all sorts of attacks (knife, kicks, weapons etc.). As I have never done Judo I wonder how many of these are still in the modern Judo curriculum, and as may have been suggested how many of these techniques are a vestige of older ju-jutsu forms.

Any Judoka care to elaborate?

DH
09-13-2011, 09:21 AM
...In DF Draeger's Martial Ways of Japan Volume III, Modern Bujutsu and Budo, I remember he makes a comparison that in Judo you pull when 'pushed' and 'push' when pulled and that contrastingly in Aikido when 'pushed' you turn and when 'pulled' you enter. Maybe this is incorrect information as...

It is interesting to note that Mifune says, when 'pushed', turn when 'pulled' go with it on an angle. This is clearly more akin to tenkan and irimi, omote and ura, one of the core principles in Aikido tai sabaki.

I never knew Judo had such a broad range of techniques from all sorts of attacks (knife). As I have never done Judo I wonder how much of these are still in the modern Judo curriculum, and as may have been suggested how many of these techniques are a vestige of older ju-jutsu forms.

Any Judoka care to elaborate?
It will be interesting to see the timeline of when he met Ueshiba. An eyewitness account states that when asked, Mifune said (like Draeger);
When Pushed...pull.
It was Ueshiba who argued;
When pushed...Turn.
Is MIfune expressing an understanding here that he learned from Ueshiba?
Is he moving in accord with In yo ho? Not really..no.
Interestingly he does not express the thing he states about the sphere that well within his own turn. Those who train with me will see what I am seeing. He almost gets there, but not quite. Yet when Ueshiba does the same turn with In yo ho, it has an affect on uke. It isn't the turn you see in Aikido™, it is something else. He also misses his own point and contradicts his own statements about entering. Oh well. He is a Japanese teacher, so he could be lying, obfuscating, hiding the truth, dropping half a hint or just plain wrong. No one knows, but that's the point isn't it? What is true, is that it sure as hell is a piss poor way to teach what he himself could be teaching right then and there...if...he knew.
When I have time I will look up the credibility of the time line and witness accounts of the quotes.

The description of Judo using the ball is interesting at 34 minutes which led me onto an interesting thought. (Interesting to me at least !)
It should be boringly obvious to anyone in budo. The idea that it is a secret of a master gained after 60 years of practice...instead of his being taught this the first year... is agonizingly sad. As was the notation by Kano's kid that no one trains this way anymore, but when a certain guy he knew did...he could not be thrown. Then again, they are Japanese teachers, so......
Dan

chillzATL
09-13-2011, 09:24 AM
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to?? :hypno:

I wouldn't say that Tim. I think that when you get to the bones of it, they're ALL talking about the same thing. The differences and often times the arguements are usually based on the How and not the what, usually.... but yes, as Lorel said, get out and see people man.

Lorel Latorilla
09-13-2011, 09:25 AM
It will be interesting to see the timeline of when he met Ueshiba. An eyewitness account states that when asked, Mifune said (like Draeger);
When Pushed...pull.
It was Ueshiba who argued;
When pushed...Turn.
Is MIfune expressing an understanding here that he learned from Ueshiba?
Is he moving in accord with In yo ho? Not really..no.
Interestingly he does not express the thing he states about the sphere that well within his own turn. Those who train with me will see what I am seeing. He almost gets there, but not quite. Yet when Ueshiba does the same turn with In yo ho, it has an affect on uke. It isn't the turn you see in Aikido, it is something else. He also misses his own point and contradicts his own statements about entering. Oh well. He is a Japanese teacher, so he could be lying, obfuscating, hiding the truth, dropping half a hint or just plain wrong. No one knows but that's the point isn't it? What is true is that it sure as hell is a piss poor way to teach what he himself could be teaching right then and there...if...he knew.
When I have time I will look up the credibility of the time line and witness accounts of the quotes.

It should be boringly obvious to anyone in budo. The idea that it is a secret of a master gained after 60 years of practice...instead of his being taught this the first year... is agonizingly sad. As was the notation by Kano's kid that no one trains this way anymore, but when a certain guy he knew did...he could not be thrown. Then again, they are Japanese teachers, so......
Dan

And people ever wonder why it's so damn unappealing for me to join a martial arts group out where I'm at. Besides the Roppokai guys (who were somewhat generous)...no one here I would really like to train with. Want. To. Be. Back. In Toronto!

DH
09-13-2011, 09:26 AM
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to?? :hypno:
You have to make a choice. I tell people to ignore me and go train elsewhere all the time, I even give them names. I've lost interest in arguing with people about this stuff, only to find they were not qualified to even be in the discussion. And I've no interest in building a big following.

I've had fun training on the sidelines, being a nobody, and poping back in and examining the comparative worth of the well known "methods" out there. It's been a lot of fun. I'd just as soon remain a nobody and see what ya'll are doing ten years from now.
Dan

DH
09-13-2011, 09:34 AM
And people ever wonder why it's so damn unappealing for me to join a martial arts group out where I'm at. Besides the Roppokai guys (who were somewhat generous)...no one here I would really like to train with. Want. To. Be. Back. In Toronto!
Well you can always train. Just don't believe a single word they say. It's why I walked out the door.
Ya gotta love these guys..do what they do, say the things they say, act how they act and then blame you for not understanding....them.
A friend of mine tells me how he asked a Koryu teacher who had spent most of his adult life in Japan. "Sensei you have spent an hour explaining to us how we should try and understand them and how hard that is. Since there are more people practicing outside of Japan then inside, how come they don't try to understand us?"f
Answer
"Because they don't care."
In fairness since it is part of their cultural heritage...why should they?
It made him feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I told him look at it this way..they do it to themselves too...all the time. The amazing thing is that so many still think they are getting the goods. It's surreal.
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
09-13-2011, 10:15 AM
Well you can always train. Just don't believe a single word they say. It's why I walked out the door.
Ya gotta love these guys..do what they do, say the things they say, act how they act and then blame you for not understanding....them.
A friend of mine tells me how he asked a Koryu teacher who had spent most of his adult life in Japan. "Sensei you have spent an hour explaining to us how we should try and understand them and how hard that is. Since there are more people practicing outside of Japan then inside, how come they don't try to understand us?"f
Answer
"Because they don't care."
In fairness since it is part of their cultural heritage...why should they?
It made him feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I told him look at it this way..they do it to themselves too...all the time. The amazing thing is that so many still think they are getting the goods. It's surreal.
Dan

Oh I'm training at home by myself.

Anyway, you mean Japanese not really caring about the goods, and going through the motions? In that case, I don't think it's so simple as what that sensei said "they don't care". I think it is a kind of cultural conditioning that leads Japanese students to make them appear as though they don't really care (you often read Sagawa say his students are stupid, etc--I find it rather imperceptive of him to not understand the state of the common Japanese student. Surprisingly, a brilliant math teacher was the only one to get the goods, but even then he struggled.). The conditioning is a complicated mixture of Japanese's obsession to take up a hobby (the hobby thing is really big, but they do not really take up a hobby to be "excellent", but just to be a part of something and to say that they have a hobby and to take their mind away from things like work or family), years and years of conditioning a conformist, uncritical mind, and the tendency to not question the sensei. These "cultural" habits end up exuding a seeming lack of passion towards the subject and a mind that is unable to rightly divide information (i.e., resourcefulness). They are simply not trained to look at the core of things...only those who have transcended the cultural conditioning are able to see the essence of things and train it relentlessly. Within certain educational paradigms, are you able to reverse this cultural conditioning--if we consider the Shu-Ha-Ri method, I think it is only those who belong to the "inner circle" that are blessed with this reversal. But since Budo is often practised en-masse and only few are selected to the inner circle, those who are not in the circle have to suffer mediocrity after years of training.

Lorel Latorilla
09-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Oh I'm training at home by myself.

Anyway, you mean Japanese not really caring about the goods, and going through the motions? In that case, I don't think it's so simple as what that sensei said "they don't care". I think it is a kind of cultural conditioning that leads Japanese students to make them appear as though they don't really care (you often read Sagawa say his students are stupid, etc--I find it rather imperceptive of him to not understand the state of the common Japanese student. Surprisingly, a brilliant math teacher was the only one to get the goods, but even then he struggled.). The conditioning is a complicated mixture of Japanese's obsession to take up a hobby (the hobby thing is really big, but they do not really take up a hobby to be "excellent", but just to be a part of something and to say that they have a hobby and to take their mind away from things like work or family), years and years of conditioning a conformist, uncritical mind, and the tendency to not question the sensei. These "cultural" habits end up exuding a seeming lack of passion towards the subject and a mind that is unable to rightly divide information (i.e., resourcefulness). They are simply not trained to look at the core of things...only those who have transcended the cultural conditioning are able to see the essence of things and train it relentlessly. Within certain educational paradigms, are you able to reverse this cultural conditioning--if we consider the Shu-Ha-Ri method, I think it is only those who belong to the "inner circle" that are blessed with this reversal. But since Budo is often practised en-masse and only few are selected to the inner circle, those who are not in the circle have to suffer mediocrity after years of training.

That is, I train at home, and go to Tokyo when I can. Once money starts coming in, Im thinking of joining BJJ.

chillzATL
09-13-2011, 12:08 PM
That is, I train at home, and go to Tokyo when I can. Once money starts coming in, Im thinking of joining BJJ.

Why bjj? Are you interested in the art itself or do you feel there is a clean tie in to the internal skills?

Lorel Latorilla
09-13-2011, 12:38 PM
Why bjj? Are you interested in the art itself or do you feel there is a clean tie in to the internal skills?

Interested for pressure testing, where nobody knows what I'm training. Since aiki-related skills are borne out of grappling, I think it's best that I study and test and refine my skills through freestyle grappling.

As far as a connection to bodyskill--yes there is, I believe that, and I believe that BJJ guys at the highest level know some of this stuff intuitively. How much do they know? I am not sure.

But no, it doesn't have a clean tie to bodyskill because they do not have a curriculum of exercises where they specifically target these movement skills like Tai Chi or Aunkai or Daito Ryu does, at least not that I know of.

Toby Threadgill
09-13-2011, 04:01 PM
...."The Nairiki chapter was ommited..." Surprise!
Tobs, bet ya wish you could go back in time and buy that book now. Not that you needed it, but these tidbits to tie things together are priceless.

Hi Dan,

I most definitely wish I had forked out the 550+ dollars for the earlier edition of the book.

I don't think most present day budoka realize how much broad based martial knowledge was lost in the turbulent period following the Meiji Restoration. What survived did so in small quiet dojos, many in the countryside far away from the impact western teaching pedagogy was having on traditional Japanese knowledge transmission.

Pardon the drift but this is important info....

I have a copy of Erwin Bealz's book "Awakening Japan" which is a dairy of a German doctor working in Japan just before and after the Meiji Restoration. Dr Baelz had direct contact with many influential Japanese of the period and even attended to the imperial family. His book/diary is an amazing eyewitness account of Japan between 1876 and 1902 which powerfully illustrates how Japan discarded many elements of its cultural heritage in only a couple of decades.

One of the most amazing stories to appear in the book utterly destroys the famous myth that the Kodokan defeated all the old jujutsu schools in a great competiton. It seems Erwin Baelz was was an eyewitness to the competition! He was also the first official foreign student of Kinkichi Sakakibara in Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu.

This eyewitness account is from page 74 of "Awakening Japan":

"The young professor Kano was especially active in the matter, and to him the renewed popularization of the old sport is especially due. He and his comrades were at length successful in inducing the university authorities to summon the jiujitsu expert from Chiba and a great jiujitsu contest took place. This made it clear how much training s needed to learn the art, for all the young men who had been working at it in Tokyo, not one, not even Kano, could cope with the police officers who had been trained by Totsuka in Chiba.

Next day old Totsuka, accompanied by his best student Sato, came to call on me and thank me for my exertions in the matter. I can still see him in imagination, this venerable old man, as, with tears running down his cheeks, he begged me for my photograph which he said he would treasure for the rest of his life. As a Japanese, he declared, it made him blush that a foreigner should have had to tell his countrymen that it was incumbent on them to revive jiujitsu; but now that he knew his beloved art would come into honor once again, he could die in peace"

Dr Bealz also mentions observing Totsuka's jiujitsu classes in Chiba and finding them to be a marvelous method of body training for health and strength.

This is all particularly important to us in TSYR as Erwin Bealz must have known and trained with the founder of TSYR, Matsuoka Katsunosuke. Matsuoka was a top student of both Sakakibara and Totsuka! Ahhhh....Had Baelz only written more about his experiences of training in budo during that period. He might have actually seen some Yoshin ryu nairiki training but one wonders if he would have understood what he was observing?

Toby Threadgill

DH
09-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Interesting reading. You might want to tie that into Takeda hanging out with Yoshin ryu guys as well. Another interesting tidbit to add to refute the Judo myth, is the shear volume of Police officers who took seminars from Takeda.
According to Tokimune (and later Kondo) both Takeda and Yoshida stated the police were in fact training in jujutsu, and most were heavily DR influenced. This is incongruent with the Kodokan's statements, as were this true, this was happening during the height of the supposed Judo revolution.
I don't trust what the Japanese say...over what they record; like their hanko in an eimoroku. IE. The aikikai stating Ueshiba blended his lengthy studies in koryu to create Aikido when we got to see the real deal in 23 years of his hanko in Takedas books. So for me, one is more compelling than the other.

As for people being able to see? The average guy, there is just no way. With internals it isn't ever going to happen. For some it was a sure bet. With some educated crowds, (to whatever extent this stuff existed in Japan) either internal or external it was the reason many of these guys didn't want their stuff on display. Hell they even created ways to display an intentionally false facade for folks to think they were seeing the real kata. For instance it would have been interesting to know what Yagyu thought he was defeating when he developed a Kata to defeat Nanatsu no maki.
All the best
Dan

jss
09-14-2011, 10:39 AM
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to?? :hypno:
Sorry for being blunt, but as long as your only exposure to these skills is through a forum, it doesn't really matter who you believe.
As Lorel said: go meet people and find out for yourself.

HL1978
09-14-2011, 06:59 PM
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.

I'm not able to comment on Mifune this time around as I'm using my work computer which is unable to utilize youtube.

As others have said, if you have some experience you can see wether or not IS is being used. Lets look at the following 3 examples for a simple motion of turning the body from left to right.

1) The average guy on the street:
The average person on the street turns left to right by using their upper waist/torso, which pivots the upper body down to the knees. This is sort of top heavy if you use this motion to turn and propagate the motion on out to the arms.

Most people should be able to see this on a video.

2) The hips/koshi/inner thigh (Half IS?):

This guy turns left to right, by opening up the left hip and closing the right hip/inner thigh area. This is much more stable and strong for putting energy out into your arms. Some might call this IS, others might call it good martial movement.

Most people probably are not familiar with this movement, but could see it fairly easily if taught to see it in the matter of a few minutes.

3) Moving/iniateing with the middle (full IS?):

This person does number 2 (No Jokes Phi), but instead of initiating the movement solely with the hips and inner thigh, the iniate with the tanden and push/pull it towards the right which causes the motion to begin on out to the thighs.

this is a lot more difficult to see, particularily if the person has loose clothes on. I'm not sure if I would be able to see the difference between this and number 2, perhaps it is the scale by which the opponent is moved. Probably a lot more experienced person would recognize it (I'm no teacher) by watching.

Perhaps someone more expereinced than me can discern which of these Mifune is doing for some of his turns?

David Orange
09-14-2011, 10:08 PM
Any physical activity can be expressed and explained.

What I see in the Mifune video is Judo. He was very good of course but he's up against a lot of guys who weren't even close to his level. It's no wonder that none of them stand any chance of throwing him.


Who was at his level? Nobody, I think, but three or four people including Toku Sampo and Kano, himself. But Mifune was profound.

Still, even if the guys in the clips are nowhere near "his level," they're mostly quite a bit bigger and clearly "stronger" so they should have some chance of overpowering him.

So how does he just make that power roll off his back?

I think he had something beyond just excellent "techniques".

Best to you.

David

jester
09-15-2011, 12:05 AM
The bottom line is that you're just not going to overpower a highly skilled judo player no matter what you do. Also, they were just doing randori and not trying to fight, overpower or hurt anyone.

Mifune isn't letting them get a superior grip and he's not letting them fit in either. You can see exactly what Mifune's doing to stop their throws.

-

Who was at his level? Nobody, I think, but three or four people including Toku Sampo and Kano, himself. But Mifune was profound.

Still, even if the guys in the clips are nowhere near "his level," they're mostly quite a bit bigger and clearly "stronger" so they should have some chance of overpowering him.

So how does he just make that power roll off his back?

I think he had something beyond just excellent "techniques".

Best to you.

David